←2016-02-10 2016-02-11 2016-02-12→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:03:52 <ais523> hmm, it looks like I have the last-but-one version of a few of the files (I configured Emacs to save the last-but-one version of each file I edit in an entirely separate directory tree, to help recover from issues where I accidentally delete an entire directory tree)
00:03:54 <ais523> but not all of them
00:05:13 <Sgeo> I don't understand Nomyx's claim "This is the first complete implementation of a Nomic game on a computer. "
00:05:14 <ais523> actually, maybe all of them
00:05:18 <Sgeo> What about PerlNomic?
00:05:27 <oerjan> and Schemenomic
00:05:50 <oerjan> Sgeo: historical ignorance hth
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00:07:16 <ais523> would be nice to get the actual latest verison though
00:07:19 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: If you have issues like that regularly you have a problem hth
00:07:36 <ais523> izabera: apparently I don't have a full version on my most recent computer
00:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Lying and false advertising hth
00:07:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I don't, I back things up regularly; /but/ gcc-bf wasn't included in some of my older backups because disks were smaller back then
00:08:28 <ais523> we're talking about a project that was last worked on in 2008
00:09:50 <ais523> and it just wouldn't fit onto the backup disk at the same time as everything else (because for some reason I didn't just backup the diffs against gcc)
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00:34:47 <fizzie> The server my standard fungot load script is trying to use seems to not be answering.
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00:41:10 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: There's fungot
00:41:10 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: and when the loop ended
00:41:22 <fizzie> Very deep.
00:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: Y-Y-yes? What happened to her? Did the out-of-memory monster get her?
00:41:34 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i'm also running bfbot.) .b.) does not evaluate anything after the... in ( ( fnord 3) is not
00:42:58 <fizzie> A Funge bot running a brainfuck bot inside it.
00:43:06 <fizzie> That's bizarre.
00:43:09 <fizzie> fungot: You're bizarre.
00:43:09 <fungot> fizzie: every time the fnord came, we thought the government took him out after all.
00:43:19 <fizzie> Bizarre and politically active.
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01:01:34 <boily> fungot: o hai!
01:01:34 <fungot> boily: my complaint of " why don't i unask the question, a moment.
01:08:01 <hppavilion[1]> iijm, or has fungot gotten less coherent recently?
01:08:01 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: for example to be similar to al* petrofsky's proposal for srfis a few years ago
01:08:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: probably a ^style thing
01:08:19 <ais523> ^style
01:08:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:08:27 <ais523> ^style europarl
01:08:27 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:08:33 <ais523> fungot: are you more coherent like this?
01:08:35 <fungot> ais523: since sweden is not taking this disquiet felt by the various levels of government. it is better than a bad treaty. instead we should be in all of the political problems are resolved and people become more interested in the best position to do so, and then cram everything it wants into its own decision-making process, the status envisaged would also be a condition which must be protected when it is a proposal for a decis
01:12:01 <boily> olsner: Sweden does not take disquiet felts. how does that make you feel?
01:12:33 <olsner> frankly it's a disgrace, but I feel like the problem is out of my hands
01:13:27 <oerjan> no respect for other people's yurt
01:15:46 * oerjan wonders if the pun was too subtle
01:17:01 <boily> there was a pun?
01:17:05 * boily pokes shachaf
01:17:13 <shachaf> ouch
01:17:19 <boily> shachaf: care to explain please?
01:17:20 <shachaf> more of a mapole than a poke if you ask me
01:17:37 <boily> I already mapoled you by accident once.
01:19:22 <oerjan> seriously, just look up "yurt" hth
01:19:40 * oerjan weeps over the dissected body
01:20:08 <boily> “A traditional yurt [...] tent [...] felt...”
01:20:16 * boily automapoles himself
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01:20:39 <oerjan> fascinating
01:21:38 <\oren\> 今ボアリは!
01:22:18 <boily> コンボレンは!
01:24:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:NRSRSSOMN]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46385 * * (+47) Created page with "What about a NRSRSSOMN-3 with [] instead of ()?"
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03:12:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46386&oldid=45957 * Quintopia * (+361) /* Examples */
03:12:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46387&oldid=46386 * Quintopia * (-2) /* Examples */
03:13:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46388&oldid=46387 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Examples */
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03:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> Fueue⁂'s example program works :)
03:26:04 <hppavilion[1]> + 20 5 print
03:28:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46389&oldid=46388 * Quintopia * (-15) /* Examples */
03:31:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46390&oldid=46389 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Examples */
03:41:57 <oerjan> `unidecode ⁂
03:42:03 <HackEgo> ​[U+2042 ASTERISM]
03:42:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: now port my bf interpreter hth
04:07:43 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_%28plant%29
04:07:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Port what to where? Fueue⁂?
04:10:45 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Individual_giant_pandas
04:11:13 <hppavilion[1]> You know your species is in trouble when it has something like that
04:16:02 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panda_cow
04:16:56 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandas_%28software%29
04:17:37 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_panda#Uses_and_human_interaction
04:17:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Uses"
04:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> I like pandas suddenly
04:21:45 <hppavilion[1]> But not as much as walruses
04:23:07 <oerjan> walruses, the pandas of the sea
04:23:32 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Port what to where? Fueue⁂? <-- of course
04:23:33 <hppavilion[1]> Pretty much
04:27:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Why YOUR brainfuck interpreter?
04:31:42 <oerjan> well you're welcome to write your own BF interpreter in Fueue to port hth
04:32:30 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, your BF interpreter was written IN fueue?
04:32:45 <oerjan> of course. it's on the wiki page.
04:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
04:32:59 <hppavilion[1]> tdh(etydhm)
04:33:33 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody should make a non-primitive-recursive acronym
04:33:41 <oerjan> even though you ...
04:34:13 <oerjan> you didn't break the rule against making d mean don't/didn't, did you
04:34:41 <oerjan> (hidden negatives in acronyms are scow)
04:34:48 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, yes they are
04:35:03 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Does your client go off whenever somebody says "scow"
04:35:39 <oerjan> he's a teeny bit idle, me thinks
04:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> "Computational Class" in the Fueue article isn't very well-placed
04:35:53 <oerjan> wat
04:36:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Because it's right under your BF interpreter, thus stealing the proof's thunder
04:37:18 <oerjan> well i wrote both so who cares
04:37:38 <oerjan> the proof is probably easier to understand
04:38:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, true, true
04:38:38 <oerjan> and was a prerequisite for understanding how to write the interpreter
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04:39:58 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
04:40:16 <oerjan> the CPS idea, as well as how to synchronize things
04:40:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I remember somebody saying there was a big argument on the wiki over whether or not a quineless language would be TC
04:40:31 <oerjan> yes
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04:40:37 <oerjan> imo it can.
04:41:02 <pikhq_> Well sure. Who says the language has any sort of IO capabilities?
04:41:14 <oerjan> because TC doesn't say anything about output needing to be easy to control
04:41:32 <pikhq_> A language which cannot output any valid strings which are in that language can still be TC, but certainly won't have quines.
04:41:59 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq_: Yes, I agree
04:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was wondering if you knew exactly where that argument was xD
04:42:24 <oerjan> however, if you can translate any IO-using program with the same alphabet to your language, _then_ it must have a quine.
04:42:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm feeling like reading some people being wrong
04:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq_: A language written only using non-unicode characters?
04:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> Then, of course, you have the picture-based language
04:43:49 <hppavilion[1]> How is THAT Expected to quine?
04:44:10 <hppavilion[1]> BTW, the example program for fueue*** is + 20 5 print
04:47:37 <oerjan> dammit, i know the page but it has a unicode name so i don't know how to search for it
04:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Smjg
04:48:58 <oerjan> oh that one too
04:50:22 <hppavilion[1]> I figured out a way to represent a C-like language with Regex, I think
04:50:57 <hppavilion[1]> Though now that I think about it, nesting may be an... wait, no it isn't
04:52:55 <hppavilion[1]> Well, it can half-recognize it, at least
04:54:36 <hppavilion[1]> The idea was to use `...` (quotes) instead of matched brackets
04:54:37 <oerjan> depends on your regexes, i think
04:54:54 <hppavilion[1]> And nested things are done with backslashes
04:55:25 <oerjan> ...have you looked at ///
04:55:27 <hppavilion[1]> CHALLENGE: Write a TC language with an FSM parser
04:55:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Occasionally
04:55:38 <oerjan> you've been here long enough that you must have
04:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> It's my favorite URL
04:55:45 <pikhq_> oerjan: "Regular expression', surely, not PCRE. :)
04:56:28 <oerjan> does P stand for perl or posix
04:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see a high-level language based on string substitution ;)
04:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: P''
04:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> hth
04:58:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot
04:59:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes?
04:59:41 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking more like Thue or ///
04:59:55 <oerjan> it's parser is trivial hth
05:00:03 <oerjan> i suppose /// too
05:00:36 <oerjan> although sometimes the program halts due to non-matching /
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05:01:08 <oerjan> hm right, Thue probably too...
05:01:28 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
05:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: TC language with a decision tree parser >:)
05:01:48 <oerjan> all of them have no nesting in the grammar afair
05:02:14 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, yes, I know. Almost certainly impossible)
05:02:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no, it's actually trivial but it's on the page i was trying to find earlier...
05:02:57 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, really?
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05:03:40 <hppavilion[1]> I mean I guess the language with the instruction `bf` (interpret brainfuck) has a DT parser...
05:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> Debatably
05:04:07 <hppavilion[1]> Depends on if you count reparsing
05:04:09 <hppavilion[1]> Coparsing?
05:04:22 <oerjan> `unicode SCRIPT CAPITAL L
05:04:28 <hppavilion[1]> I know.
05:04:31 <HackEgo> ​ℒ
05:04:53 <hppavilion[1]> I visited that page recently
05:04:53 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/%E2%84%92 hth
05:05:46 <oerjan> obviously, the one legal program can be parsed with a decision tree
05:06:22 <hppavilion[1]> Damn
05:06:25 <hppavilion[1]> Anything lower?
05:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> I guess the = machine is lower
05:06:42 <oerjan> SKEPTICAL
05:06:46 <hppavilion[1]> But still L-complete
05:08:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I suppose the only thing lower than the = machine is the NOPE machien
05:08:32 <hppavilion[1]> *machine
05:08:54 <oerjan> OKAY
05:09:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What do you think would be ideal for a high-level Thue?
05:13:20 <oerjan> i think that's an oxymoron.
05:14:29 <oerjan> or maybe that SNOBOL thing i've heard a little about.
05:15:11 <oerjan> i mean, if it's string-based with no structure, how can it be high-level
05:15:36 <oerjan> and if it has structure, then you've got TCL
05:15:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well, a high-level string substitution-based language
05:15:46 <hppavilion[1]> That isn't sed
05:16:21 <oerjan> i suppose you could use a CF-grammar...
05:16:45 <oerjan> to recognize what do substitute.
05:16:57 <oerjan> *to
05:18:01 <oerjan> still feels oxymoronic
05:20:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: U callin me a moron, m8?
05:21:29 <hppavilion[1]> IMHO, wikipedia shouldn't have citations on mathematics articles.
05:21:40 <hppavilion[1]> At least, not in the explanation of what it's all about
05:21:41 <oerjan> U so moronic you don't deserve the oxygen, is wat i'm saying
05:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> aND NOW THERE'S A CAT IN THEW AY OF MY SCREEN
05:22:22 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, caps lock
05:22:27 <oerjan> inline citations are the Law (TM)
05:22:43 <oerjan> although not so much in the intro.
05:23:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But wikipedia shouldn't NEED citations in mathematics. Math is true whether you cite it or not.
05:23:12 <hppavilion[1]> Unless, y'know, the proof is really really long
05:23:14 * oerjan is finally starting to learn how to make them
05:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> Like, wikipedia-sized
05:23:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: [citation needed]
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05:24:12 * oerjan cuts off the oxygen supply to hppavilion[1]'s part of the channel
05:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Hitler was a bad person^[citation needed]^[citation needed]^[citation needed]^[citation needed]...
05:24:25 <hppavilion[1]> `? #esoteric
05:24:30 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
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05:24:49 <hppavilion[1]> Is it really big enough for air ducts and airtight chambers?
05:26:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn #programming/No such channel. See `? #esoteric
05:26:34 <HackEgo> Learned «#programming»
05:27:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_don%27t_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue
05:27:39 <pikhq_> [citation needed]
05:28:11 <oerjan> "Ideally, common sense would always be applied but Wiki-history shows this is unrealistic."
05:28:46 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Finger&diff=prev&oldid=166357603
05:29:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Somebody needs to blanket that article with [citation needed]s
05:29:26 <hppavilion[1]> `? citation
05:29:28 <HackEgo> citation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:29:34 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn citation/needed
05:29:39 <HackEgo> Learned «citation»
05:29:56 <hppavilion[1]> `tomfoolery #esoteric
05:29:58 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:30:15 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_do_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue
05:30:32 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: No, why would it?
05:30:45 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ?
05:30:49 <hppavilion[1]> What are you referring to?
05:31:00 <shachaf> scow
05:31:03 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
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05:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure
05:31:19 <hppavilion[1]> My thing alerts me whenever someone says "walrus"
05:31:21 <hppavilion[1]> *client
05:31:44 <hppavilion[1]> `misle/rn #esoteric/#esoteric is the channel you are currently on, unless HackEgo's spreading. We mostly chat about esolangs, or at least in theory.
05:31:47 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «#esoteric»
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05:31:53 <hppavilion[1]> `? #esoteric
05:31:54 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
05:32:01 <hppavilion[1]> `tomfoolery #esoteric
05:32:02 <HackEgo> ​#esoteric is the channel you are currently on, unless HackEgo's spreading. We mostly chat about esolangs, or at least in theory.
05:32:48 <oerjan> `cat bin/?
05:32:49 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
05:33:05 <oerjan> hm right
05:33:30 <hppavilion[1]> `? tom
05:33:31 <HackEgo> tom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
05:33:37 <hppavilion[1]> `tomfoolery to
05:33:38 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:33:40 <hppavilion[1]> `tomfoolery tom
05:33:41 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
05:34:05 <hppavilion[1]> `ls tmflry
05:34:06 <HackEgo> c++ \ C++ \ cat \ esolang \ esolangs \ #esoteric \ fs \ hth \ mapole \ `mislearn \ random number \ the meaning of life \ tomfoolery \ wisdom
05:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> `tomfoolery cat
05:34:26 <HackEgo> A cat is an animal with four legs. It's nice to pet, especially when it's a baby cat, called a kitten. Or it's the unix "cat" command. It takes a filename (or many) and prints the contents of that (those) file(s).
05:35:15 <hppavilion[1]> `? cat
05:35:16 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
05:35:29 <shachaf> I thought Cat was the category of categories and functors.
05:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> perhaps `le/rn cat/Cats are cool, but should be illelaksjfa;oiesjfaseoiu;AKJDFOAIELKAJOEIU203RUIVMM
05:35:58 <shachaf> Look.
05:36:07 <shachaf> wisdom isn't a database of lies
05:36:08 <hppavilion[1]> Looking
05:36:18 <shachaf> Whether something is true is irrelevant.
05:36:26 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, it is, that's why we created `tomfoolery
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05:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> "If the alternate proposition merits inclusion in the article under other policies and guidelines it should of course be included, but it should in no way be given greater prominence because it is sourced."
05:41:40 <hppavilion[1]> --WIKIPEDIA
05:41:49 <hppavilion[1]> , 20SOMETHING
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06:18:46 <izabera> so annoying, even googling llvm-bf leads to stuff like https://github.com/nojb/llvm-bf aka brainfuck compilers, not compilers to brainfuck........
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06:43:31 <shachaf> There is http://www.xanxys.net/hs2bf/
06:43:47 <izabera> there's still a problem though
06:44:00 <izabera> they compiled an alien language to brainfuck
06:45:30 <shachaf> it's p. close to haskell hth
06:45:59 <izabera> haskell is eye-gouging
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06:46:29 * izabera can't learn that
06:47:34 <shachaf> i,i gains kell until end of turn
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06:49:20 <shachaf> Anyway if you don't like Haskell you can use one of its intermediate languages.
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06:53:30 <izabera> ok let me learn a haskell...
06:54:27 <izabera> how hard can it be
06:54:35 <izabera> and btw haskell qualifies as esoteric
07:00:09 <\oren\> nah, there's a a secret syntax allowing you to write it like an imperative language
07:00:24 <izabera> ;-; liar
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07:01:20 <\oren\> http://learnyouahaskell.com/input-and-output
07:01:35 <\oren\> scroll down ad see the "do" block.
07:01:49 <izabera> wait i was still here http://learnyouahaskell.com/starting-out
07:02:12 * oerjan swats \oren\ for sabotaging the assimilation process -----###
07:02:13 * izabera slow reader
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07:02:57 <izabera> what does prelude mean?
07:03:13 <oerjan> Prelude is the default imported module
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07:04:42 <izabera> ok so /= is != because we want to be weird so we change != to /=
07:05:14 <oerjan> nah haskell just inherits from a different tradition
07:05:40 <izabera> of languages that want to be weird so they change != to /=
07:06:37 <shachaf> != is the weird one
07:06:38 <EgoBot> How exciting!
07:07:00 <shachaf> What's with "!"? Why does that mean "not"?
07:07:04 <shachaf> !=
07:07:04 <EgoBot> How exciting!
07:08:16 <\oren\> @hoogle itoa
07:08:17 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.PixelRectangles.PixelMap IToA :: PixelMapTarget
07:08:17 <lambdabot> Network.HTTP.Base uriToAuthorityString :: URI -> String
07:08:23 <\oren\> idiots
07:08:26 <oerjan> back in 1989 C wasn't the universal syntax it is now
07:08:33 <\oren\> why is there no itoa
07:08:43 <oerjan> > show 10
07:08:45 <lambdabot> "10"
07:08:57 <\oren\> @hoogle Int -> String
07:08:58 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Text number :: Int -> String -> String
07:08:58 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Text short :: Int -> String -> String
07:08:58 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.Pretty prettyPrint :: Pretty a => a -> String
07:09:01 <oerjan> because there's a more general function.
07:09:18 <shachaf> :t showIntAtBase
07:09:20 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Show a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> ShowS
07:09:25 <pikhq_> :t show
07:09:27 <\oren\> @hoogle String -> Maybe Int
07:09:27 <lambdabot> Show a => a -> String
07:09:28 <lambdabot> Network.BSD ifNameToIndex :: String -> IO (Maybe Int)
07:09:28 <lambdabot> Test.HUnit.Base Label :: String -> Node
07:09:28 <lambdabot> Network.CGI.Protocol maybeRead :: Read a => String -> Maybe a
07:09:55 <\oren\> @hoogle String -> Int
07:09:55 <lambdabot> Test.HUnit.Base Label :: String -> Node
07:09:55 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Test labelPercentage :: String -> State -> Int
07:09:55 <lambdabot> Prelude error :: [Char] -> a
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07:10:16 <\oren\> whar is mai scanf?
07:12:01 <oerjan> > read "10" :: Int
07:12:03 <lambdabot> 10
07:12:39 <\oren\> @t read
07:12:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell thank you thanks thesaurus thx tic-tac-toe ticker time todo todo-add todo-delete type v @ ? .
07:12:52 <\oren\> :t read
07:12:53 <lambdabot> Read a => String -> a
07:13:00 <\oren\> cool
07:13:49 <\oren\> > read Int "10"
07:13:51 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Int’
07:13:51 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
07:13:51 <lambdabot> ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted),
07:14:27 <\oren\> @lambdabot you liar
07:14:27 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
07:15:00 <\oren\> > Read Int "10"
07:15:02 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Read’
07:15:02 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
07:15:02 <lambdabot> variable ‘read’ (imported from Prelude),
07:15:14 <\oren\> > (Read Int) "10"
07:15:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Read’
07:15:17 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these:
07:15:17 <lambdabot> variable ‘read’ (imported from Prelude),
07:15:41 <\oren\> rrgh how do i pass a type into read
07:16:18 <\oren\> > read 10
07:16:21 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Num String) arising from the literal ‘10’
07:16:21 <lambdabot> from the context (Read a)
07:16:21 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Read a => a
07:16:24 <\oren\> > read "10"
07:16:27 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
07:16:42 <\oren\> wait what
07:16:51 <izabera> seeing an experienced programmer struggling with this is pretty depressing
07:16:57 <\oren\> > read "10" :: Int
07:16:59 <lambdabot> 10
07:17:01 <\oren\> OH
07:17:09 <\oren\> :: isn't a comment marker
07:17:34 <\oren\> it's how you pass a type to something
07:17:58 <\oren\> > read :: Int "10"
07:17:59 <lambdabot> ‘Int’ is applied to too many type arguments
07:18:00 <lambdabot> In an expression type signature: Int "10"
07:18:00 <lambdabot> In the expression: read :: Int "10"
07:18:13 <\oren\> > (read :: Int) "10"
07:18:15 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[Char] -> t’ with actual type ‘Int’
07:18:15 <lambdabot> The function ‘read :: Int’ is applied to one argument,
07:18:15 <lambdabot> but its type ‘Int’ has none
07:18:48 <\oren\> > (read :: (String -> Int)) "10"
07:18:51 <lambdabot> 10
07:18:54 <\oren\> AHA
07:19:41 <\oren\> so I'll just readInt = read :: (String -> Int)
07:19:54 <\oren\> > readInt = read :: (String -> Int)
07:19:57 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘=’
07:20:05 <\oren\> > readInt <- read :: (String -> Int)
07:20:07 <lambdabot> <no location info>:
07:20:07 <lambdabot> not an expression: ‘readInt <- read :: (String -> Int)’
07:20:20 <\oren\> GRR
07:20:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: @let if you want it persistently, otherwise let { ... } in
07:21:04 <\oren\> > let { readInt = read :: (String -> Int) } in {readInt "10"}
07:21:06 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1:
07:21:06 <lambdabot> parse error in let binding: missing expression after 'in'
07:21:20 <\oren\> > let { readInt = read :: (String -> Int) } in readInt "10"
07:21:22 <lambdabot> 10
07:21:33 <b_jonas> yes, although there should be a semicolon before the close brace
07:21:37 <b_jonas> but it's optional
07:22:40 <oerjan> even the braces are optional
07:23:08 <b_jonas> yes, but that's evil
07:23:14 <b_jonas> and can lead to ambiguities and stuff
07:23:19 <b_jonas> don't leave them off
07:23:23 <oerjan> not with let ... in ...
07:23:48 <oerjan> i almost never need braces for one-liners
07:23:52 <\oren\> If i do `` return read s '' from a function declared to return an Int, will it know automatically?
07:24:18 <izabera> does ghci use readline?
07:24:21 <b_jonas> it's a matter of style, but I hate the Haskell indenting rules, so I always write the braces
07:24:22 <oerjan> except that's not what you use return for in haskell
07:24:34 <b_jonas> izabera: oh, good question, that reminds me,
07:24:34 <oerjan> izabera: it uses a readline clone called haskeline
07:24:51 <b_jonas> for gnuplot on windows, how do you ask it not to use readline even if it's started interactively?
07:24:59 <oerjan> which is BSD licensed or such
07:25:10 <b_jonas> (or whatever readline-like library it uses)
07:25:17 <b_jonas> (maybe editline)
07:25:36 <b_jonas> wait, I should ask #gnuplot
07:25:40 <oerjan> bsd3 it seems http://hackage.haskell.org/package/haskeline
07:25:50 * izabera glad it supports vi bindings
07:26:44 <b_jonas> Maybe I should redirect its stdin.
07:27:43 <b_jonas> like cat | gnuplot
07:27:46 <b_jonas> I'll try that
07:27:59 <izabera> didn't you say windows?
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07:30:00 <oerjan> izabera: oh by coincidence i just found this tip http://trac.haskell.org/haskeline/wiki/UsingTmux
07:30:09 <oerjan> er
07:30:19 <oerjan> just in case you're also using tmux
07:30:29 <izabera> wasn't using tmux right now but thanks :p
07:31:04 <izabera> > drop (1 `drop` [1,2] !! 0) "abcde" -- behold my haskell mastery
07:31:06 <lambdabot> "cde"
07:31:15 <oerjan> \oren\: return in haskell is deceptively named for people used to other languages.
07:31:26 <oerjan> izabera: fancy
07:31:47 <izabera> ikr
07:35:37 <izabera> does 'a'..'z' use my current locale or is it always ascii?
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07:35:46 <oerjan> > 1 `drop` [1,2] !! 0 `drop` "abcde"
07:35:48 <lambdabot> "cde"
07:35:51 <oerjan> izabera: always ascii
07:35:56 <izabera> disappointed
07:36:43 <izabera> > 'è'
07:36:45 <lambdabot> '\232'
07:36:46 <izabera> ew
07:36:59 <oerjan> > var "è"
07:37:01 <lambdabot> è
07:37:44 <myname> how is having always the same result disappointing?
07:37:55 <oerjan> izabera: quoted chars and strings are in portable format.
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07:38:14 <oerjan> (as _should_ everything given by show)
07:38:56 <oerjan> however, putStr will use locale, i think.
07:38:59 <izabera> > '乐'
07:39:01 <lambdabot> '\20048'
07:39:06 <izabera> that's awful..
07:39:09 <oerjan> (that isn't available in lambdabot though)
07:39:42 <oerjan> izabera: try putStr "\20048" in GHCi
07:39:56 <izabera> that's not the point
07:40:05 <myname> what is?
07:40:31 <izabera> nothing -.-
07:40:47 <myname> well
07:41:31 <myname> i see, you are very open towards things you do not know
07:41:47 <oerjan> izabera: it would be dangerous for the meaning of expressions to change with locale, because laziness means they might not be evaluated when you think
07:42:19 <myname> also, it wouldn't be purd
07:42:19 <izabera> myname: i'm open, otherwise i wouldn't be reading this thing
07:42:33 <oerjan> so what if you used setEncoding in between (although that takes a file handle anyway)
07:42:37 <oerjan> um
07:42:44 <oerjan> @hoogle hSetEncoding
07:42:46 <lambdabot> System.IO hSetEncoding :: Handle -> TextEncoding -> IO ()
07:42:46 <lambdabot> GHC.IO.Handle hSetEncoding :: Handle -> TextEncoding -> IO ()
07:42:52 <izabera> what is @hoogle?
07:43:02 <oerjan> haskell api search by type
07:43:07 <oerjan> (also name)
07:43:11 <izabera> is that an official name?
07:43:19 <oerjan> yes.
07:43:19 <myname> it is
07:43:32 <\oren\> oerjan: can I define a monad in which it does the correc thing?
07:43:48 <izabera> ah the dwim monad
07:43:55 <oerjan> \oren\: in which what does what?
07:43:55 <myname> what is the "correct" thing?
07:44:10 <\oren\> in which "return" returns from the funtion
07:44:31 <myname> how is that the correct thing?
07:44:35 <oerjan> izabera: there's also hayoo :P
07:44:52 <\oren\> myname: uh. how could it not be
07:45:11 <myname> because monad laws say otherwise
07:45:53 <\oren\> monad laws don't overrule 60 years of programming convention
07:46:05 <myname> obviously, they do
07:46:13 <oerjan> \oren\: use "pure" instead of "return" hth
07:46:25 <\oren\> not if I write a monad in which it doesn't
07:46:44 <oerjan> everyone agrees return was a stupid name for the thing
07:46:51 <oerjan> in afterthought
07:48:40 <izabera> > cycle "die lambdabot die"
07:48:42 <lambdabot> "die lambdabot diedie lambdabot diedie lambdabot diedie lambdabot diedie lam...
07:48:54 <izabera> didn't die
07:49:22 <myname> it's not that stupid
07:49:43 <oerjan> lambdabot cuts off its output twice in the process
07:49:57 <oerjan> hm let's check...
07:50:28 <oerjan> @@ @run length @show @run repeat 'a'
07:50:33 <lambdabot> 81
07:50:37 <oerjan> wat
07:51:00 <oerjan> hm i thought it cut off to 80 only at final output
07:51:12 <myname> > [ mod x 10 | x <- [1..] ]
07:51:13 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8...
07:51:17 <oerjan> @@ @run length @run show $ repeat 'a'
07:51:21 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:88:
07:51:21 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character '\n'
07:51:26 <oerjan> darn
07:51:37 <oerjan> of course duh
07:51:40 <izabera> > length (repeat 1)
07:51:45 <lambdabot> mueval: ExitFailure 1
07:51:48 <izabera> this kills my ghci
07:51:54 <izabera> can't even ^C to stop it
07:51:57 <oerjan> izabera: yeah that's an infinite loop
07:52:22 <oerjan> try twice
07:52:22 <\oren\> so basically what i want to make is a monad where `` do { return a; return b } '' returns a, and doen't evaluate b
07:52:36 <myname> somebody here posted a fancy anonymous fibonacci function
07:53:15 <myname> may be possible
07:53:52 <myname> just hold the return value in some kind of state that yields nothing if it is set or something like that
07:54:07 <oerjan> izabera: you've hit a rare weakness in GHC's thread preemption model
07:54:23 <oerjan> if a calculation does not allocate memory at all, it cannot be interrupted
07:54:56 <oerjan> there's a flag to insert extra "yields" in case that's a problem.
07:55:21 <myname> :D
07:55:49 <myname> how does it not allocate memory? is length tail recursive?
07:56:08 <oerjan> there are however very few calculations that infloop while never allocating, so it's rarely worth it (it slows down execution in general)
07:56:17 <izabera> cool, i hit a rare weakness after 30 minutes of haskell -_-
07:56:33 <myname> finding it while fumbling isnkt that hard
07:56:41 <myname> finding it while seriously coding is
07:56:47 <oerjan> myname: yes, length is tail recursive and merges with repeat 1 to optimize into a register-only loop
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07:57:04 <oerjan> well, ghci doesn't do much optimization
07:57:16 <oerjan> oh right
07:57:26 <izabera> myname: that's what fuzzers are for
07:57:39 <myname> so length is like foldl (\x -> 1+) 0?
07:57:47 <oerjan> repeat 1 actually makes a cyclic list in memory. and then length's tail recursion takes care of the rest.
07:58:07 <oerjan> (the optimization to a tight loop is for compiled ghc)
07:58:16 <oerjan> @src length
07:58:16 <lambdabot> Source not found. It can only be attributed to human error.
07:58:20 <oerjan> darn
07:58:53 <oerjan> myname: something equivalent to that yeah
07:58:59 <\oren\> wait, what happens if I try to save repeat 1 in a state, then modify the nth element?
07:59:12 <myname> do that
07:59:27 <myname> it should evaluate to n elements
07:59:35 <oerjan> although things got a bit haywire in GHC 7.10's Foldable rearrangement. it's possible it's actually foldr before it's rewritten.
08:00:17 <myname> huh? how does it just rearrange that? these have their own weaknesses and strengths
08:03:13 <oerjan> \oren\: you cannot get do { return a; return b } to return a if a and b have different types. this holds by the types of the functions no matter how much you ignore the monad laws. QED.
08:06:35 <\oren\> why would they have different types?
08:06:42 <izabera> vi mode in haskeline sucks.......
08:06:53 <\oren\> obviously a function always returns the same type
08:08:20 <\oren\> *yadda yadda, 60 years convention, remember our honorable ancestors who wrote in FORTRAN on punched cards...
08:08:55 <\oren\> in my case literally my ancestors
08:09:25 <oerjan> myname: i think i may be misremembering something.
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08:11:05 <\oren\> `? fortran
08:11:13 <HackEgo> fortran? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
08:11:30 <izabera> how do i run putStr for all the elements in a list?
08:11:44 <oerjan> > (do return 1; return "hi") :: Maybe _
08:11:46 <lambdabot> Found hole ‘_’ with type: [Char]
08:11:46 <lambdabot> To use the inferred type, enable PartialTypeSignatures
08:11:46 <lambdabot> In an expression type signature: Maybe _
08:11:55 <oerjan> bah
08:12:03 <myname> > mapM putStr "hello"
08:12:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Char’ with ‘[Char]’
08:12:05 <lambdabot> Expected type: [String]
08:12:05 <lambdabot> Actual type: [Char]
08:12:10 <myname> damn
08:12:17 <oerjan> @ask int-e WHY U NO ENABLE PartialTypeSignatures
08:12:17 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
08:12:34 <izabera> > [ if x `mod` 15 == 0 then "FizzBuzz" else if x `mod` 3 == 0 then "Fizz" else if x `mod` 5 == 0 then "Buzz" else show x | x <- [1..100] ]
08:12:36 <lambdabot> ["1","2","Fizz","4","Buzz","Fizz","7","8","Fizz","Buzz","11","Fizz","13","14...
08:12:39 <myname> > mapM putStr . map show [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
08:12:41 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘a -> t String’
08:12:41 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[String]’
08:12:41 <lambdabot> Possible cause: ‘map’ is applied to too many arguments
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08:12:50 <myname> gna
08:12:57 <oerjan> > (do return 1; return "hi") ++ []
08:12:59 <lambdabot> ["hi"]
08:13:01 <myname> > mapM putStr $ map show [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
08:13:04 <lambdabot> <IO [()]>
08:13:11 <oerjan> *MWAHAHAHA*
08:13:15 <myname> -.-
08:13:40 <izabera> i don't really understand what's going on but i find it scary that you can't do this
08:13:49 <myname> izabera: there is actually a nice blogpost about fizzbuzz in haskell
08:13:53 <\oren\> `le/rn FORTRAN/FORTRAN was a language in 1957, in which our noble, honourable ancestors wrote programs on punched cards and paper tape.
08:13:58 <HackEgo> Learned «fortran»
08:14:06 <myname> izabera: i can do this in more than one line
08:14:17 <myname> but where's the fun in that
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08:14:40 <oerjan> izabera: mapM_ putStr
08:14:46 <izabera> does haskell have eval?
08:14:46 <myname> ah!
08:14:58 <myname> > mapM_ putStr $ map show [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
08:15:00 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
08:15:04 <oerjan> myname had it essentially right (mapM is just slightly less efficient), but lambdabot doesn't do IO actions
08:15:11 <myname> ah
08:15:20 <myname> it's lambdabots fault
08:15:29 <oerjan> also
08:15:33 <myname> how do mapM and mapM_ differ?
08:15:39 <oerjan> > mapM_ print [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
08:15:41 <lambdabot> <IO ()>
08:15:45 <oerjan> myname: mapM collects the results
08:15:59 <\oren\> myname: one is a linux syscall
08:16:09 <myname> interesting
08:16:18 <oerjan> so there's a list of ()s wasting memory.
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08:16:26 <myname> izabera: what do you need eval for?
08:16:34 <myname> izabera: just pass a function
08:17:14 <\oren\> how does lambdabot do it?
08:17:43 <\oren\> @source
08:17:43 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
08:17:51 <\oren\> @list
08:17:51 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
08:17:57 <\oren\> bah
08:18:30 <myname> haha
08:18:44 <oerjan> i'm not sure how lambdabot handles eval, it's pretty old, but these days i think the hint package may be the easiest way.
08:19:14 <oerjan> hint is a wrapper around the ghc-api, which allows you to call GHC from inside a haskell program.
08:20:00 <oerjan> (the ghc-api is _really_ crufty, it's basically a "wrap up and expose anything people might need" package)
08:20:23 <oerjan> afaik. i wouldn't dare to try it myself.
08:21:11 <oerjan> izabera: so, there's no built-in eval, but you can get the equivalent by installing hint.
08:21:17 <myname> you could implement read for a -> b
08:21:27 <oerjan> it's usually extremely overkill, mind you.
08:21:57 <myname> there is a reason eval is considered evil in most languages
08:23:55 <Sgeo_> Except Kernel Lisp
08:24:28 <myname> wouldn't you need monads for eval?
08:25:36 <oerjan> myname: well sure
08:28:19 <oerjan> i think the ghc-api basically runs in a GHC monad.
08:29:16 <myname> interesting
08:29:30 <oerjan> which contains IO inside, as well as various state.
08:29:59 <oerjan> anyway, good night
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08:44:59 <b_jonas> I hate how svn doesn't have an interface to explicitly add a file to a working copy but set its parent to a particular versioned file in the repo.
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08:47:38 <b_jonas> You have to emulate it by renaming the file temporarily, copying the versioned file, then renaming the file back to replace the copy.
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09:03:47 <\oren\> ARGH Wikipedia sucks!
09:04:15 <\oren\> All I wanted to know was what is a "critical theorist"?
09:06:27 <\oren\> then again, I'm finding more and more wikipedia articles which contain no information understandable by non-experts
09:06:48 <\oren\> but I thought that the problem was limited to math articles
09:21:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46391&oldid=46383 * Rdebath * (+822) /* This seems to be a weird definition of "Zero" */ new section
09:22:03 <myname> i agree
09:23:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46392&oldid=46391 * Rdebath * (+128) /* This seems to be a weird definition of "Zero" */
09:23:55 <izabera> can you ask rdebath to come here?
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09:26:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Zero Instruction Set Computer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46393&oldid=46392 * Orenwatson * (+200)
09:26:34 <\oren\> there
09:26:49 <izabera> thanks
09:26:51 <izabera> <.<
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09:42:42 <FireFly> Well, in a multi-ISC you need opcodes to distinguish instructions. In an OISC you can elide the opcode since it's always the same; you just have arguments. In a ZISC you can elide both the opcodes and arguments--there's no "instructions" left
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09:43:29 <mroman> fnard
09:43:43 <FireFly> although in a way it's the same thing as an OISC, just another perspective
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09:45:27 <FireFly> I mean, I suppose if you wanted you could treat a multi-ISC as an OISC as well by having the one instruction be "branch on opcode, if x do ..., if y do ..., ..."
09:45:35 <FireFly> the "one" instruction
09:46:51 <mroman> yeah or DO a, b, c
09:46:56 <mroman> where a tells what operation to carry out
09:47:50 <mroman> so I'm more curious about how many arguments you need
09:48:21 <mroman> subleq needs three arguments
09:50:27 <izabera> WHY ISN'T HE HERE YET
09:51:01 <izabera> unless lynn or AnotherTest are rdebath
09:51:19 <izabera> in which case hi
09:51:23 <izabera> well in any case hi
09:56:50 <FireFly> have you considered creating an account on the wiki instead
09:57:38 <izabera> that's too impersonal
10:31:48 <\oren\> someone should make a better C standerd library
10:32:54 <izabera> what's the problem with the current one?
10:34:00 <Taneb> It forces you to write in C
10:34:13 <izabera> oh
10:34:17 <\oren\> it's too small
10:34:34 <\oren\> and lacks a proper string type
10:35:11 <\oren\> or a lot of array handling stuff (qsort and bsearch notwithstanding)
10:36:01 <\oren\> or for that matter diretory tree handling
10:36:58 <\oren\> and lacks any support for data structures other than flat arrays
10:37:43 <Taneb> \oren\, I think to some extent you are using C for the wrong reasons
10:39:08 <\oren\> well all of the things above have lots of implementations in C
10:39:35 <\oren\> it's just every project has to reinvent it
10:40:06 <\oren\> i think it's time for at the very least
10:40:44 <\oren\> struct STR {int len; char *dat};
10:40:54 <\oren\> to be in the standard library
10:42:38 <\oren\> or something. the std commitee can decide how to implement this stuff, but it's time for it to not be reinvented over and over
10:46:16 <\oren\> hmm
10:47:09 <\oren\> struct STR_STRUCT {size_t len; char *dat}; typedef struct STR_STRUCT STR;
10:52:40 <izabera> there are better ways
10:53:22 <izabera> https://github.com/antirez/sds
10:57:10 <\oren\> evil
10:57:15 <\oren\> i like it
10:58:05 <\oren\> but if the c std comittee is doing it they can create a new printf format spec like "%S" or something so that would not be needed
10:58:55 <izabera> you'd have to change all of string.h
10:59:15 <izabera> also i believe %S is taken
10:59:19 <izabera> for wide characters
10:59:45 <\oren\> not really
11:00:03 <\oren\> strlen doesn't take a STR it takes a char*
11:00:10 <\oren\> so if you did
11:00:26 <izabera> well i mean you'd have to add a STR- version to all the functions in string.h
11:00:35 <\oren\> yes
11:00:58 <\oren\> but you'd have to do that anyway
11:01:06 <\oren\> to take advantage of the new length
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11:49:59 <boily> @metar CYUL
11:50:00 <lambdabot> CYUL 111141Z 26012KT 4SM -SN BKN014 OVC028 M12/M15 A2972 RMK SC6SC2 SLP069
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12:40:34 <Taneb> Does anyone know a friendly algorithm for computing the convex hull of a set of gaussian integers
12:41:23 <b_jonas> Taneb: a 2-d convex hull of points? do you want an algorithm, or implementation?
12:41:45 <b_jonas> I can give sources for either
12:42:43 <Taneb> b_jonas, the former
12:44:42 <Taneb> Would you believe this is for a language which may be esoteric
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13:33:10 <b_jonas> Taneb: for algorithms, I suggest you look at the Cormen--Leiserson--Rivest--Stein Introduction to algorithms book. I believe it talks about 2d convex hull at one point.
13:33:35 <b_jonas> Taneb: if that's not enough, then get a more detailed geometric algorithms book.
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14:22:26 <int-e> `wisdom
14:22:33 <int-e> `quote
14:22:49 <HackEgo> 668) <Phantom_Hoover> I had a dream last night where I got hit by a van but the van had a brain uploader in it and I was uploaded and I angsted because I was stuck spending eternity with singularitarians?
14:22:49 <HackEgo> ​`? `?/Yes, you're very clever
14:23:17 <int-e> oh they got out of order
14:26:20 <b_jonas> why can't they just have a simple ordinary about dialog that tells the name and version of the software in an ordinary message box, whose text is, by the way, copy-pastable
14:26:26 <b_jonas> seriously?
14:27:28 <int-e> just use `strings` on the executable ;-)
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14:28:21 <int-e> does taking a screenshot work?
14:28:53 <int-e> "this way we get fewer bug reports"
14:29:03 <b_jonas> int-e: dunno, I think it also disappears if I press a key.
14:38:18 <Taneb> b_jonas, thanks
14:38:55 <Taneb> b_jonas, can you take a photograph?
14:39:08 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think one of my flatmates has a copy of that!
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15:21:27 <Taneb> If I've written a language called COMPLEX, what should the file extension be?
15:24:15 <FireFly> .1+i
15:24:41 <Taneb> FireFly, might use something along those lines
15:24:48 <Taneb> But I'm using the X+YJ convention
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15:26:44 <mroman> is + legal on windows?
15:29:33 <Taneb> mroman, idk, I'm on Linux
15:29:44 <Taneb> I think this qualifies as an esolang, I'll write up a description later
15:31:02 <FireFly> Sure, .1+J works too
15:31:46 <FireFly> Speaking of complex literals, J in its perverseness to infix everything uses e.g. 4j3 for a literal representing 4+3i
15:32:50 <Taneb> FireFly, I've gone for .1+1J
15:32:52 <FireFly> which is a bit of an interesting approach I think. It'd work in many languages and follows the same conventions as other number literals (starts with a digit, contains digits, letters and periods)
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16:23:45 <oren> apparently boost is not allowed anymore
16:23:59 <oren> (at my workplace)
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16:28:33 <izabera> why?
16:34:50 <b_jonas> WTF...
16:35:01 <b_jonas> is this 7z version completely broken wrt tar files?
16:35:09 <b_jonas> this tar file is definitely not old, I made it myself, yet it can't read it
16:35:40 <izabera> sounds like you made it by hand tar'ing your files
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16:36:06 <oren> apparently boost isn't backward compatible to wmbedded computers
16:36:22 <izabera> boost is huge
16:36:24 <oren> or... uh... sideways compatible?
16:36:41 <oren> izabera: oh... well so is our codebase
16:36:42 <izabera> even stl is frowned upon
16:37:01 <izabera> oren: make it smaller >:O
16:37:05 <izabera> whatcha waiting for
16:37:08 <b_jonas> oren: maybe they didn't realize that boost is made of like a hundred different packages, each of them different, and some of them are definitely compatible with embedded computers
16:37:16 <b_jonas> whereas some aren't
16:38:12 <b_jonas> whew no
16:38:15 <b_jonas> it's not broken
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16:38:18 <b_jonas> only the interface is broken
16:38:22 <b_jonas> shows it wrong
16:38:25 <b_jonas> but still finds the files
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16:39:01 <b_jonas> sorry for false alarm
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16:46:13 <Taneb> https://arin.ga/iDqTEk here is a program in COMPLEX
16:49:44 <Taneb> Bonus points if you can work out what it does (it's not particularly obtuse)
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17:12:19 <FireFly> It's a linear 2D language
17:13:27 <FireFly> hmm
17:20:31 <fizzie> I'm going to guess the convex hull question was related to this.
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17:47:23 <Taneb> You'd both be right in those assumptions
17:51:53 <Taneb> Just had a nice chat with a researcher in the field of unconventional computing
17:52:06 <Taneb> She seems a bit obsessed with computing things on the inside of black holes
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18:19:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46394&oldid=46337 * Luis Mendo * (+8) /* Fibonacci sequence */
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18:34:29 <FireFly> Unconventional computing is basically the scientific side of esolangs?
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18:44:12 * izabera thought esolangs where the scientific side of esolangs
18:44:43 <izabera> were*
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19:04:13 <MDude> I think unconventional computing is usually more concerned with things that could theoretically be implemented in hardware.
19:04:29 <MDude> As oppossed to hardware which only exists as a model for the purpose of theory.
19:04:42 <myname> subleq could
19:05:46 <MDude> Yeah, a dedicated suqleq architecture sounds like unconventional computing.
19:05:51 <MDude> *subleq
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19:43:29 <hppavilion[1]> Hellu
19:44:03 <hppavilion[1]> I still think we should have an official LISP
19:45:11 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: do you still happen to have a copy of gcc-bf, by any chance?
19:45:12 <Vorpal> ais523: hm?
19:45:14 <Vorpal> What was that?
19:45:18 <Vorpal> I don't remember
19:45:38 <ais523> Vorpal: gcc backend targeting a language that compiles to brainfuck
19:45:46 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: What else would it be?
19:45:58 <Vorpal> ais523: you made that, right?
19:46:00 <ais523> for a version of gcc that's now really old
19:46:02 <ais523> yes
19:46:19 <ais523> but it's one of the few things I didn't back up because it was so large, and for some reason I didn't think of just backing up the diff against gcc
19:46:22 <Vorpal> ais523: If I have it, it is in some super old backup somewhere, I may have time to look during the weekend, definitely not now though
19:46:28 <ais523> fair enough
19:46:29 <ais523> it's not urgent
19:46:51 <Vorpal> ais523: I think that is probably two linux installs ago
19:49:17 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: #esoteric official LISP. Yea or nay?
19:49:45 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you'll never get the whole channel to standardise on a language
19:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Just the people who care
19:50:11 <hppavilion[1]> And no one is expected to use it
19:50:11 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: it should be a mix of liskell and scheme
19:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Perhaps
19:50:35 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: oh and some erlang concepts thrown in
19:50:43 <Vorpal> Like runtime reloading of modules
19:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Sure.
19:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> The only one of those I've ever seen any code in is Scheme (and /maybe/ erlang)
19:51:08 <hppavilion[1]> Never even heard of liskell
19:51:24 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: it is haskell with LISP syntax
19:51:31 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: and distributed fault tolerance built into the standard implementation. Which I assume you will write?
19:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
19:51:37 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Yes
19:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Or at least a prototype
19:51:46 <Vorpal> heh
19:51:52 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: JITing?
19:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Perhaps
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20:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> Useful feature of #EsoLISP: `(call-drop)`, which discards the top value on the call stack
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20:08:24 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: not very functional
20:09:38 <int-e> does it also have call-dup?
20:09:56 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: It prevents the call stack from getting too cluttered
20:10:19 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: You call it right before unfounded recursion
20:10:37 <hppavilion[1]> So that the call stack doesn't overflow
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20:17:03 <izabera> a non functional language is disfunctional?
20:23:41 <Vorpal> Maybe you could compute in a language by only manipulating the call stack?
20:23:47 <Vorpal> No other memory
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20:47:54 <shachaf> `welcome Vorpal
20:48:08 <shachaf> long time nor pal
20:50:38 <HackEgo> Vorpal: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:50:51 <ais523> @tell Vorpal <Vorpal> Maybe you could compute in a language by only manipulating the call stack? ← that can be PDA-complete quite easily (see Splinter), but can't be TC without some method to access elements arbitrarily far down the stack
20:50:51 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
20:50:54 <izabera> found a game where humans can beat computers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX8PpddIm68
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20:52:54 <Taneb> Some guy with a bad haircut once said "A computer once beat me at chess but it was no match for me at kickboxing"
20:54:04 <ais523> humans currently beat computers at BF Joust
20:54:47 <fizzie> It has not received quite as much research attention as Chess and Go, though.
20:56:00 <ais523> indeed
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21:01:19 <shachaf> my computer can beat up your computer at bfjoust
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22:13:33 <izabera> how do you pronounce SIGCHLD ?
22:13:46 <izabera> like child or children?
22:13:53 <izabera> or neither?
22:14:29 <ais523> neither
22:14:41 <ais523> I put a schwa between the ch and ld
22:14:59 <ais523> as it's the closest way to pronounce it to the spelling (you can't pronounce it with no vowel there at all, really)
22:15:35 <izabera> ok
22:15:51 <izabera> let's continue with this very interesting topic
22:15:57 <izabera> how do you pronounce execvpe?
22:16:46 <lynn> exec-vee-pee-ee?
22:17:00 <izabera> strpbrk
22:17:05 <izabera> strcspn
22:17:19 <izabera> zsh
22:17:56 <izabera> damn it's almost like these names aren't meant to be spelled out loud
22:17:58 <ais523> yes, I spell out the VPE in execvpe
22:18:05 <ais523> also the whole of zsh
22:18:13 <lynn> I'd say "z shell"
22:18:26 <ais523> strpbrk and strcspn I try to pronounce as two syllables each
22:18:43 <ais523> (knowing some method to pronounce names of commands is important because I type phonetically)
22:19:16 <izabera> rep movsb
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22:19:28 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized how we can generalize bit shifts to a non-integer shift number. Maybe.
22:19:50 <izabera> how would that work?
22:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> Observing that n<<i, where i is a number, is equal to n*2^i (I think that's right), generalizing it becomes trivial where all you need to is allow i to be a real
22:20:31 <lynn> I think exponentiation is waaay ahead of you
22:20:54 <hppavilion[1]> n<<0 = n (n*2**0 = n*1)
22:20:59 <shachaf> i is imaginary not real hth
22:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Sure, sure.
22:21:35 <izabera> this didn't end up being as esoteric as i hoped
22:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> And I suppose that works with complexes too, though it doesn't shift the bits very nicely (because complexes, of course, need a different encoding)
22:21:45 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I know. It kind of sucks, doesn't it.
22:22:46 <shachaf> One day I'd like to understand the reals.
22:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: If you want eso, maybe we should invent bitshifting n<<i or n>>i where instead n is a real (or even complex!) without just shifting around floating point
22:23:27 <hppavilion[1]> Which should actually be trivial too, ntitai, the eso part will be finding the encoding
22:24:40 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: That's the new goal. Given that n<<i = n*2^i, what is the bit-by-bit encoding for n, assuming n can be any real number (the encoding, of course, will need to be truncated for real machines)
22:24:43 <shachaf> `? ntitai
22:24:48 <HackEgo> ntitai? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:24:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Now that I think about it. I was in a hurry and forgot that that isn't an acronym
22:25:08 <shachaf> `le/rn ntitai/not that i'm truly against it
22:25:12 <HackEgo> Learned «ntitai»
22:25:26 <hppavilion[1]> `misle/rn ntitai/Now that I think about it
22:25:29 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «ntitai»
22:25:56 <izabera> `misle/rn ntitai/new tool in titanium and iron
22:25:59 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «ntitai»
22:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: No
22:26:05 <hppavilion[1]> `misle/rn ntitai/Now that I think about it
22:26:08 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «ntitai»
22:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: misle/rn is only for accurate facts
22:26:26 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's a tool we invented for people who really have no clue what we're talking about
22:26:37 <hppavilion[1]> Because wisdom isn't very helpful (try `? hth)
22:26:47 <izabera> `? hth
22:26:48 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
22:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> (Took me MONTHS to figure out/extract what hth means)
22:27:12 <izabera> months of desperate googling
22:27:22 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Yes. Nonstop.
22:27:23 <izabera> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=HTH
22:27:41 <hppavilion[1]> I'm at school and I doubt the filter will like urban dictionary
22:27:47 <hppavilion[1]> (fuckin
22:27:58 <hppavilion[1]> ' Child Protection Act)
22:28:23 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: So really, do you have any clue what the encoding for the reals is? It might just be fixpoint, I suppose
22:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, that sounds about right ntitai
22:28:53 <shachaf> `? misle
22:28:54 <HackEgo> misle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> (infinite fixpoint)
22:28:59 <shachaf> the past tense of misled
22:29:03 <shachaf> no, the present tense
22:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I think that's "mislead"
22:29:32 <izabera> killjoy
22:29:37 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Yes.
22:29:38 <shachaf> i think it's "misle"
22:29:45 <shachaf> do you want to fight over it
22:30:10 * izabera will now pronounce misled as misseld to match misle as the present tense
22:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: What are bitwise connective equivalent to? Is there some convenient definition of x^y f.e. using convenient operations?
22:30:35 <shachaf> It's pronounced "my-zzle".
22:30:48 <hppavilion[1]> s/convenient o/more conventional o/
22:30:50 <izabera> thanks
22:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Ah, found it
22:33:43 <hppavilion[1]> It uses summation and stuff, but that works
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22:33:50 <izabera> what is it?
22:34:30 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Very complicated
22:34:30 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitwise_operation#Mathematical_equivalents
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23:39:39 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> All I wanted to know was what is a "critical theorist"? <-- critical theory is iirc postmodernism, and one of the endeavors that are more incomprehensible than math, largely due to being 90% nonsense hth
23:39:39 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:42:00 <oerjan> <izabera> can you ask rdebath to come here? <-- good luck, i don't think he ever has.
23:42:09 <izabera> :C
23:43:27 <oerjan> on the other hand registering a wiki account is _almost_ painless save for this small blood sample
23:44:39 <oerjan> hm wait, did fizzie ever reenable registration after the recent spam attack...
23:45:09 <izabera> yeah that's totally the reason i'm not registering
23:45:33 <oerjan> in which case you may have to ask him for the unsolvable captcha.
23:46:41 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: wait, you're in high school?
23:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Why do you ask?
23:47:10 <\oren\> well, holy crap i'm old
23:47:10 <hppavilion[1]> Whether I am or not depends on the reason for the question.
23:47:14 <oerjan> hm i think the captcha must be solvable, there are heaps of hits in the spam filter
23:47:43 <oerjan> \oren\: no, i'm old. hth.
23:47:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh, I guess it's pretty obvious
23:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> xD
23:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Dammit, logs)
23:48:09 <izabera> http://www.uebersetzung.at/twister/media/nor0001.mp3 oerjan
23:48:29 <oerjan> argh mp3
23:48:43 <izabera> come on
23:48:49 <izabera> fire up a decent browser
23:48:59 <oerjan> ah a tongue twister
23:49:18 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: I don't bother with logs I just leave irssi on for literally moths on end
23:49:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Ah, that works too
23:51:04 <\oren\> $ ps -eo pid,comm,etime | grep irssi \ 4505 irssi 42-19:23:08
23:51:24 <\oren\> 42 days!
23:53:16 <oerjan> izabera: You shall not call Kalle Kalle. Even if Kalle's mother calls Kalle Kalle, you shall not call Kalle Kalle, because Kalle is really named Karl hth
23:53:52 <izabera> are those male names?
23:53:56 <oerjan> yes
23:54:25 <oerjan> Karl -> Charles / Carlo
23:54:45 <izabera> i'm positive i could have figured that out myself
23:55:53 <oerjan> i believe Karl may be the original (Germanic) form.
23:56:25 <\oren\> no, it's carol: charlemagne was originally carolus magnus
23:57:07 * oerjan swats \oren\ for nonsense -----###
23:57:43 <izabera> http://www.uebersetzung.at/twister/no.htm
23:57:47 <oerjan> carolus is the latinized form. he was frankish, not roman.
23:57:49 <izabera> their italian page has no audio
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