←2016-02-25 2016-02-26 2016-02-27→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:25 <tswett> z(a,b) is defined as the smallest ordinal number c such that c > a, c > b, and c is not the value of z for any smaller a, or for the same a with a smaller b.
00:00:33 <oerjan> tswett: i think that should be the Tardigrade hth
00:00:56 <tswett> oerjan: I think I agree. th
00:01:07 <tswett> Now, it's not obvious to me that that function is well-defined.
00:01:57 <tswett> z(0,b) is simply the successor of b, and it's obvious that the successor function "misses enough" ordinal numbers.
00:02:25 <tswett> (That is: the collection of ordinal numbers which are not in the image of the successor function is isomorphic to the collection of all ordinal numbers.)
00:02:30 <oerjan> tswett: didn't we discuss this earlier
00:02:41 <tswett> Maybe.
00:02:45 <oerjan> i recall it almost melted my brain
00:02:52 <oerjan> but that somehow, there were enough gaps
00:03:15 <tswett> Yeah. So, why are there always enough gaps?
00:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> Fuzzy Bag Typing
00:07:22 <tswett> Wait, I'm starting to remember, I think.
00:07:31 <tswett> Suppose you have some function f on the ordinal numbers such that for all x, f(x) > x.
00:08:11 <tswett> Then you can start at any ordinal number and iterate f on it. This will give you an infinite increasing sequence of ordinal numbers. Then take the limit of that sequence.
00:08:41 <tswett> That number that you just got, that limit, can't be in the image of f.
00:09:05 <oerjan> f needs to be increasing
00:09:19 <tswett> Does it?
00:10:12 <tswett> Yeah, I guess it does.
00:10:31 <tswett> The infinite sequence that you get is increasing even if f is not increasing. But, uh...
00:10:53 <oerjan> maybe you can take supremums of f(0)...f(x)
00:11:05 <tswett> My train of thought fell down a mine shaft.
00:11:12 <tswett> (MTOTFDAMS)
00:11:33 <oerjan> hi, welcome to the mine of brain liquification
00:11:49 <tswett> So, this makes z well-defined.
00:12:08 <tswett> Now, it happens that the entirety of z has "enough gaps", too.
00:12:31 <tswett> Why?
00:13:01 <oerjan> BRRAAAINS
00:13:20 * oerjan saves his brain by not even trying
00:13:32 <shachaf> do you want a refreshing pooch pic to soothe your brain
00:13:44 <oerjan> MAYBE
00:14:36 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/K59pAb5.gifv
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00:16:21 <oerjan> `? adu
00:16:25 <HackEgo> Bye!
00:16:33 <adu> oerjan: ?
00:17:13 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/adu
00:17:14 <HackEgo> changeset: 7004:4c654b530cd9 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 25 04:20:01 2016 +0000 \ summary: <hppavilion[1]> le/rn adu/Bye!
00:17:38 <adu> shachaf: what does that mean?
00:17:44 <oerjan> shachaf: a very pouchy pooch
00:18:02 <adu> what's a pouch
00:18:03 <oerjan> `le/rn adu/Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu!
00:18:05 <HackEgo> Learned «adu»
00:18:06 <adu> what's a pooch?
00:18:21 <shachaf> @wn pooch
00:18:22 <lambdabot> *** "pooch" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:18:23 <oerjan> adu: see above gifv hth
00:18:24 <lambdabot> pooch
00:18:26 <lambdabot> n 1: informal terms for dogs [syn: {pooch}, {doggie}, {doggy},
00:18:28 <lambdabot> {barker}, {bow-wow}]
00:18:30 <lambdabot> v 1: round one's lips as if intending to kiss [syn: {pooch},
00:18:32 <lambdabot> {pooch out}]
00:18:51 <adu> shachaf: oh, you mean a baggy dog
00:18:57 <oerjan> adu: someone added a wisdom for you. it wasn't very good, so i imprevod it hth
00:19:04 <adu> uh I mean oerjan
00:19:09 <shachaf> oerjan: it previously meant "adu" as in "bye" hth
00:19:10 <adu> oerjan: thanks :)
00:19:16 <shachaf> as in "adieu"
00:19:33 <adu> shachaf: I'm well aware of the french saying
00:19:44 <adu> but in fact, "adu" is short for "andydude"
00:19:47 <shachaf> Aware of the French saying what?
00:20:10 <adu> I used to use "andydude" as my login to irc, but I registered "adu" and now I have no choice
00:21:08 <oerjan> adu: you know you
00:21:18 <oerjan> 're allowed more than one nick here hth
00:21:26 <shachaf> oerjan: NONSENSE
00:21:27 <oerjan> you can even group them
00:21:41 <adu> like adu_sleeping
00:22:40 <adu> or adu_zzz
00:22:46 <adu> or adu_slumber
00:22:52 <adu> or adu_work
00:22:54 <oerjan> shachaf: ♫ Si meg, hva betyr adjø... ♫
00:23:17 <adu> Yes, make a better adjective...
00:23:37 <adu> I like that song
00:24:18 <shachaf> oerjan: The pooch has pooches which contain smaller pooches.
00:25:33 <shachaf> The Neverhood was so good
00:25:36 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14xcsz43Kuw
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00:29:48 <adu> `` hg log wisdom/adu
00:29:49 <HackEgo> changeset: 7017:e40713f3412a \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Fri Feb 26 00:18:04 2016 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> le/rn adu/Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu! \ \ changeset: 7004:4c654b530cd9 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 25 04:20:01 2016 +0000 \ summary: <hppavilion[1]> le/rn adu/Bye!
00:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yes?
00:30:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I didn't say anything
00:30:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I was simply testing a hypothesis, which turned out to be true
00:32:37 <adu> my hypothesis was that it was cumulative, and it is
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00:39:14 <quintopia> hello
00:41:24 <hppavilion[1]> adu: One data point is not enought to turn a hypothesis into a theory
00:41:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: tell that to my success story!
00:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Are you a young earth creationist?
00:46:59 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Pokadots that will rip you to shreds given the chance <-- *polkadots hth
00:47:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No.
00:48:02 <oerjan> Yes.
00:50:16 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm going to pretend I know what you're talking about
00:51:05 <hppavilion[1]> adu: You haven't heard of young earth creationists?
00:51:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I've heard of creationists
00:51:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: They're the guys who think the universe is 6000 years old, same as the earth
00:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> Created by gaaaaaaaaaaaawd 6000 years ago
00:51:35 <adu> those are people who believe the universe is 6000 years old
00:51:47 <adu> I'm not sure what "young earth" means in that context
00:51:56 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Creationists are broader than the young earth creationists
00:52:02 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no
00:52:11 <hppavilion[1]> adu: There are two types- old earth and young earth
00:52:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]: wut
00:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Old earth at least try to mix some basic science- the things we know for a fact to be true- into their beliefs
00:52:33 <adu> how do they explain older stuff?
00:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> adu: God created everything to look older than it is
00:52:52 <ais523> adu: "young earth creationists" are the subset of creationists who have a specific time in mind for the creation of the earth that's on a relatively small timescale, normally somewhere around 4000 BC
00:53:01 <adu> hppavilion[1]: WhAuT?
00:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> Young earthers throw science out the window
00:53:23 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I believe that the universe is older than anything in the universe
00:53:29 <hppavilion[1]> adu: They think we can see stars >6000 light-years away because god created the universe with everything already here
00:53:38 <hppavilion[1]> (everything = light)
00:53:48 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I also have a very strict definition of "universe" and "spacetime"
00:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Fair enough
00:54:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: a "spacetime" is all that we will ever know: 3D space + time, but the "universe" is all that exists, and all this popsci mumbo jumbo about "paralell universes" is, in my dictionary, talking about "parallell" spacetimes, not universes
00:55:05 <hppavilion[1]> It's funny that wikipedia says "Fictional superhero" instead of just "superhero"
00:55:28 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I think you mean the multiverse hth
00:55:31 <adu> so my dictionary does not contain the word "multiverse", since obviously, it is a synonym for "universe"
00:55:40 <adu> hppavilion[1]: lol, I hate you for that
00:56:11 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Usually, the Universe only covers things we can get to without a particle accelerator from here to Alpha Centauri
00:56:24 <adu> hppavilion[1]: that's called a Spacetime, sir
00:57:10 <hppavilion[1]> adu: No, it's the universe
00:57:33 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no, it's a spacetime, which most people inaccurately equate with the universe
00:58:23 <adu> The Universe, is by definition, all that exists, if multiple spacetimes exist, then they exist within The Universe, by definition
00:58:30 <adu> this is just pure logic, it's not an opinion
01:06:00 <oerjan> @tell <b_jonas> huh... but I thought I reverted something else <-- you tried to `revert a command that didn't actually change anything hth
01:06:02 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:06:03 <oerjan> oops
01:06:09 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> huh... but I thought I reverted something else <-- you tried to `revert a command that didn't actually change anything hth
01:06:10 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:06:50 <shachaf> oerjan: that's a long way back
01:09:37 <oerjan> shachaf: um it was during the recent `list mess
01:09:49 <shachaf> yes
01:09:52 <shachaf> that was a long time ago
01:10:09 <oerjan> shachaf: are you an extremely young earth creationist
01:10:52 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps i'm a veetan
01:11:29 <adu> oerjan: shachaf didn't deny it
01:11:53 <shachaf> i'm not all that young anymore
01:12:13 <shachaf> but i'm certainly an earth creationist
01:12:18 <shachaf> what other sort of creationist would i be
01:13:34 <ais523> bleh, that moment when you're curious about what the `list is and yet don't want to check
01:14:40 <shachaf> ais523: go for it
01:14:44 <shachaf> What's the worst that could happen?
01:14:54 <ais523> I'd end up on a list
01:18:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Are there any things that won't make my brain heart with cardinality > 𝔠?
01:18:10 <hppavilion[1]> ...
01:18:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Do newer versions of neoletters have 𝔠?
01:28:41 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
01:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> My left arrow key seems to have stopped working
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01:34:44 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make an unlambda derivative
01:34:52 <hppavilion[1]> Then write a fake O'reilly book about it
01:34:58 <hppavilion[1]> Though I'm not sure what to call it
01:35:33 <adu> ais523: that sounds like a hashtag
01:36:06 <adu> #thatmomentwhenyourecuriousaboutwhatthelistisandyetdontwanttocheck
01:39:19 <hppavilion[1]> If call/cc is GOTO, what's COMEFROM?
01:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Do you know?
01:40:19 <shachaf> call/cc isn't GOTO
01:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's the functional equivalent, according to wikipedia
01:42:52 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do you mean try0catch?
01:43:01 <adu> "try-catch"
01:43:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: For what? comefrom?
01:43:32 <hppavilion[1]> Or as the functional GOTO
01:43:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: call/cc is CAMEFROM, cc is GOTO
01:43:46 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Ah.
01:43:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: or perhaps you mean (dynamic-wind)
01:44:06 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Oooh, what's that?
01:44:14 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it's like try-catch
01:44:36 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it ensures that it's 3 arguments are all executed, in order, regardless of exceptions thrown
01:45:16 <adu> (dynamic-wind a b c) will execute c, even if a and b throw exceptions
01:45:27 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if the function you pass to a call/cc is another continuation?
01:45:27 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> My left arrow key seems to have stopped working <-- it's spreading!
01:45:27 <adu> or call a "cc" from somewhere else
01:45:48 <adu> hppavilion[1]: then the world starts to explode
01:46:04 <adu> hppavilion[1]: actually, then you're just returning an address
01:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> adu: But then you call a continuation and it stops exploding
01:46:19 <adu> ((call/cc call/cc) (call/cc call/cc)) is when the world explodes
01:46:32 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, right
01:47:40 <hppavilion[1]> adu: In esolisp, should I include call/em instead of call/cc as primitives?
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01:48:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]: my personal opinion is that all you need is call/ec, which is like call/cc, but the continuation cannot escape the lexical scope of call/ec
01:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> adu: And what does ec stand for?
01:49:01 <adu> https://docs.racket-lang.org/reference/cont.html#%28def._%28%28lib._racket%2Fprivate%2Fletstx-scheme..rkt%29._call%2Fec%29%29
01:49:12 <adu> "escape-continuation"
01:49:53 <adu> hppavilion[1]: scratch that, "dynamic extent", not "lexical scope"
01:50:06 <adu> s/lexical scope/dynamic extent/
01:50:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: You're much smarter than me. Can you help me with #esoteric lisp?
01:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> Passively, if you prefer
01:50:34 <adu> hppavilion[1]: as if lisp isn't esoteric enough ;)
01:50:50 <hppavilion[1]> adu: That's the tagline ;)
01:50:54 <adu> I'm not smart, I just read a lot
01:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> adu: That works too
01:51:47 <adu> for example, I once deployed an update to every server with an extra comma, that caused all of our servers to crash, repeatedly
01:52:11 <adu> I think I deleted the comma about 4 hours later
01:52:29 <adu> which, of course, made me feel like an idiot
01:52:44 * adu hates commas
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01:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Is there something I could do for CF in esolisp that would be completely unexpected?
01:56:41 <adu> what is CF?
01:57:12 <adu> nobody expects the Spanish initialization!
01:57:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]: in Python?
01:57:35 <adu> lisp?
01:57:44 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Control Flow
01:57:47 <adu> oh
01:57:53 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Esolisp, probably implemented in python
01:58:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]: force all control flow to be in the form of unevaluated associated lists
01:58:35 <hppavilion[1]> dafuq?
01:58:45 <adu> hppavilion[1]: basically switch-case
01:58:55 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
01:59:02 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I want something functional xD
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01:59:22 <adu> imagine a world, in which if is deprecated, else is a thing of the past, your only hope, is switch-case
01:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Are there any completely strange GOTO-like constructs I could functionalize?
01:59:33 <hppavilion[1]> Not just a jump, something different
01:59:43 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you could go way back
01:59:46 <adu> hppavilion[1]: way way back
01:59:52 <hppavilion[1]> Listening
01:59:53 <adu> like now scheme is at R7RS
02:00:05 <adu> but in R1RS there was this thing called tagbody
02:00:09 <adu> that was kind of like goto
02:00:13 <adu> but so f*cked up
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02:01:04 * hppavilion[1] googles it
02:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> MY EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEYES
02:01:08 <adu> lol
02:01:25 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Not only is it weird and confusing with an IMproper implementation
02:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm also reacting to plain-font code
02:02:20 <adu> lol
02:02:22 <hppavilion[1]> adu: If call/cc is functional GOTO, what's functional IF?
02:02:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: arc if is probably the most obscure
02:02:37 <hppavilion[1]> Not the construct named IF necessarily- the one that evaluates one of its arguments based on another
02:02:42 <adu> lisp and schem use 3-argument if
02:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm going for what you get if you use call/cc like JMP in compiled code; what does IF look like then?
02:03:10 <adu> arc if is equivalent to lisp and scheme (cond), so (if a b c d e) actually means (if a b (if c d e))
02:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> Wat
02:03:28 <adu> ya
02:03:42 <hppavilion[1]> adu: So conditional call/cc
02:03:47 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no, just if
02:03:57 <adu> it's like the classic if-elseif-else
02:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> adu: No, I'm talking about conditional call/cc
02:04:11 <adu> hppavilion[1]: conditional on what?
02:04:15 <hppavilion[1]> (call-with-current-continuation-if-<cond> cond func else)
02:04:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Various
02:04:32 <adu> https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/manual/html_node/Dynamic-Wind.html
02:04:34 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Basically, it's the functional equivalent of low-level JMP
02:05:05 <hppavilion[1]> adu: And I'm wondering what happens if we exactly transcribe the implementation of IF-THEN to JMPs into functional programming
02:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> Do you get what I'm trying to say?
02:05:13 <adu> hppavilion[1]: oh, you want delimited-continuations
02:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Is that it?
02:05:33 <adu> https://docs.racket-lang.org/guide/prompt.html
02:05:51 <adu> prompt is like "global = address"
02:05:59 <adu> abort is like "address = global"
02:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm not sure you understand, but odds are it's me who isn't understanding
02:07:30 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I think one of the issues with goto's in scheme is that all previous attempts involve going where you've gone before
02:07:59 <adu> if you want to jump to a place *after* everything you've done, then you probably just need to invent a name for it
02:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Ah, yes, that
02:08:19 <adu> and define it as "current_address = given_address"
02:08:55 <hppavilion[1]> adu: What I'm trying to say is this
02:09:05 <hppavilion[1]> adu: You know how call/cc is sort of like a JMP?
02:10:18 <adu> yes
02:10:48 <adu> as opposed to CALL, which manipulates the stack
02:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> adu: OK, and you know how if-then in imperative languages is implementable in terms of JMP
02:11:41 <adu> yes
02:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> Well, conditional JMP
02:12:11 <hppavilion[1]> adu: What happens if you implement if-then the same way, but in terms of conditional call/cc (and functionalizing everything)?
02:12:24 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Is it just (if x y z), or does it make something new?
02:12:47 <adu> (call/cc (lambda (return) (if x (return y) (return z))))
02:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> adu: So it's exactly the same then?
02:13:35 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:13:37 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there are more possibilities, like you can return y in places that are not technically tail-calls
02:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
02:16:25 <adu> like without call/cc, then (begin a b c d e ... z) would always return z
02:16:26 <hppavilion[1]> adu: JMP:CJMP::call/cc:???
02:16:26 <adu> but with call/cc, then (call/cc ... (begin a b c (return y) ... z)) would return y instead of z, even though z is a tail call
02:18:29 <adu> hppavilion[1]: so really call/cc should be called convert-return-into-a-function
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02:19:10 <quintopia> hezzo38
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02:36:43 <coppro> I really love the breathiness of finnish glottals
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02:56:10 <\oren\> there should be language-independent languages
02:56:31 <\oren\> err i guess that was meaningless
02:57:07 <\oren\> i mean a programming language which is independent of natural language
02:58:56 <\oren\> e.g. the keywords like print etc would be eliminated in favor of symbols
02:59:06 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: so you end up with emojis?
02:59:12 <\oren\> yah
02:59:19 <\oren\> that would work
03:00:51 <\oren\> techically bf is an example
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03:21:08 <zgrep> \oren\: APL/J/K seem to share that philosophy.
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04:21:53 <lifthrasiir> I guess so
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05:03:44 <lambda-11235> \oren\: Befunge almost counts, except for the p and g commands.
05:07:39 <deltab> \oren\: AppleScript uses numbers as symbols internally, which are displayed as translatable text
05:07:39 <\oren\> I made a plane kinda like the Saab Gripen in KSP
05:09:23 <\oren\> i suppose if you have translations for every keyword it could work, but ideally you would make it so that anyone can just read code written by someone who speaks a different language
05:09:47 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: you need to deter identifiers then? it would be very hard.
05:10:03 <lifthrasiir> that will surely end up as an esolang
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06:16:29 <hppavilion[1]> unlambda `c``sii interests me now
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06:21:08 <hppavilion[1]> So ```sii`c``sii creates an infinite loop...
06:21:11 <hppavilion[1]> Unlambda is fun!
06:29:41 <hppavilion[1]> I should ruin it by introducing objects!
07:18:13 <hppavilion[1]> OH MY GOD
07:18:20 <hppavilion[1]> THE FIRST HIGH-LEVEL LANGUAGE WAS 2D
07:18:27 <izabera> what was it?
07:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plankalkül
07:19:05 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Unfortunately, the one code examples is in the 1990s revision, which was designed to be implemented
07:19:25 <hppavilion[1]> Can't believe they changed such a major feature and still called it Plankalkül
07:30:19 <b_jonas> ``` perl -e bin/revert
07:30:31 <HackEgo> Illegal division by zero at -e line 1.
07:30:54 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: that's not really surprising, since the first form of APL was 2D too (as in, using arrows for gotos or something.
07:30:57 <b_jonas> )
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07:49:08 <zzo38> The talk page mentions a few other things too
07:49:51 <zzo38> (Apparently the only "word" built-in is FIN which means the program is finished if 1 is assigned to FIN)
07:50:59 <zzo38> They also mention the programming language that has only control structure is a for loop
07:54:45 <b_jonas> which kind of for loop?
07:55:46 <b_jonas> the fortran DO loop?
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08:18:24 <b_jonas> ah yes, great QC comic. Jeph does these sorts of montages great.
08:18:40 <b_jonas> He did them multiple times.
08:24:49 <b_jonas> Huh? The second Conspiracy set (announced a few weeks ago but more details given yesterday) will be focused on multiplayer games after a draft with cards affecting draft?
08:28:40 <shachaf> Isn't that also true of the first Conspiracy set?
08:28:47 <shachaf> I didn't know there'd be a second one.
08:30:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: the draft part is true, but as far as I know, the multiplayer isn't. maybe I just didn't pay much attention.
08:30:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: and the second one isn't released yet.
08:30:33 <shachaf> Conspiracy was designed for multiplayer games.
08:30:40 <shachaf> They had all those voting cards.
08:30:41 <b_jonas> Um, ok.
08:30:57 <b_jonas> In that case I just didn't pay attention to that set.
08:31:17 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=o:%22Will+of+the+council%22
08:31:27 <shachaf> Those cards make much more sense with more than two players.
08:31:52 <b_jonas> true
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09:44:09 <izabera> http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2016/02/25-1/sleeping-pokmon-kabigonsnorlax-becomes-15m-size-cushion *_*
09:47:54 <izabera> gimme that gimme that gimme gimme
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10:38:45 <b_jonas> `? hat
10:38:55 <HackEgo> hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo
10:39:11 <b_jonas> `? high hat
10:39:13 <HackEgo> high hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:39:14 <b_jonas> `? black hat
10:39:17 <HackEgo> black hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:39:19 <b_jonas> `? white hat
10:39:21 <HackEgo> white hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:39:24 <b_jonas> `? top hat
10:39:26 <HackEgo> top hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:39:46 <b_jonas> `? hi hat
10:39:47 <HackEgo> hi hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:39:47 <b_jonas> `? hihat
10:39:48 <HackEgo> hihat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:39:49 <b_jonas> `? hi-hat
10:39:50 <HackEgo> hi-hat? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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12:51:55 <b_jonas> `? infinite
12:52:01 <b_jonas> `? meta
12:52:12 <HackEgo> meta? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
12:52:13 <HackEgo> infinite? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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13:26:28 <b_jonas> `? rint
13:26:29 <b_jonas> `? lrint
13:26:31 <b_jonas> `? trunc
13:26:32 <HackEgo> lrint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:26:33 <HackEgo> rint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:26:33 <HackEgo> trunc? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:26:34 <b_jonas> `? llrint
13:26:35 <HackEgo> llrint? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:33:02 <myname> what are you doing
13:34:30 <b_jonas> trying names of arithmetic functions for the wisdom database
13:34:36 <b_jonas> but I'm no wiser from what it returns
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14:28:31 <callforjudgement> ns ghost ais523
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14:28:44 <ais523> good thing I don't enter my password for ghosting…
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14:44:26 <oerjan> ais523: truly
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14:51:57 <b_jonas> `? now you see
14:52:05 <HackEgo> now you see? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:52:33 <int-e> What do I see now?
14:53:01 <int-e> obvsiously that was a ghost password.
14:54:14 * oerjan gets all but two pairs in today's xkcd, and guesses the remaining...
14:54:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's always http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
14:54:59 <b_jonas> `? It's 'cause you're dumb
14:55:02 <oerjan> OKAY
14:55:03 <HackEgo> It's 'cause you're dumb? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:55:17 <oerjan> actually there's only one i cannot even recall seeing before
14:55:21 <b_jonas> `? explainxkcd
14:55:22 <HackEgo> explainxkcd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
14:55:29 <oerjan> the one with jay and the other guy
14:57:15 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think i'll have to go there for the last name in the hovertext
14:59:22 <oerjan> they seem to have paired with Hall
15:02:05 <oerjan> the streak of regular what-if updates seems to have caught a snag
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17:04:18 <prooftechnique> I'm worried compiling boost is going to blow up my computer :|
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18:29:15 <hppavilion[1]> What is the λ-calcular definition of the S combinator using the classic notation?
18:29:26 <hppavilion[1]> That is, one variable after the λ
18:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> So K is λx.λy.x, not λxy.x
18:30:33 <quintopia> i'm sure you can figure out how to curry it
18:31:30 <b_jonas_> hppavilion[1]: S = \x->\y->\z->(xz)yz
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18:32:00 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Oh, I thought you didn't need parentheses in that notation
18:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I know, but I wanted the parenthesis-free notation
18:34:13 <myname> i would have thought it is x z (y z)
18:35:28 <zgrep> `` ls bin | grep explain
18:35:36 <HackEgo> No output.
18:35:56 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I think both work, the latter is just the more common notation
18:36:04 <hppavilion[1]> Then again, I'm an idiot
18:36:30 <myname> well, no
18:36:35 <myname> they are different things
18:36:57 <myname> application is evaluated left to righr by definition
18:37:15 <b_jonas> myname: oh right, I'm stupid
18:37:16 <myname> i.e. (xz)yz should be no different from xzyz
18:37:27 <b_jonas> indeed, S = \x->\y->\z->xz(yz)
18:37:28 <b_jonas> sorry
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18:48:55 <hppavilion[1]> Most functional programming corresponds to Hilbert-Style Deduction Systems (many axioms, almost no deduction rules (usually just modus ponens)), correct?
18:49:03 <Elronnd> "(xz)yz should be no different from xzyz"
18:49:17 <Elronnd> which shoulds be no different than xy(z^2)
18:50:45 <myname> Elronnd: huh?
18:50:54 <myname> what the hell is ^2?
18:51:00 <Elronnd> to the second power
18:51:25 <myname> you are familiar with the fact that xzyz is no multiplication?
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18:58:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So was I right about functional programming and Hilbert-style deduction?
19:03:15 <Taneb> Wow
19:03:32 <Taneb> Next year I might have a piece of paper all official and everything saying I know functional programming
19:03:49 <myname> so?
19:04:03 <prooftechnique> You should start lying about it now. Get a jump on the job market
19:04:16 <Taneb> prooftechnique: well, I'm in my third year of a four year degree
19:04:19 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, most functional programming is based on natural deduction
19:04:23 <Taneb> I don't think that's a jump I can utilize
19:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> CL is the hilbert one
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19:07:49 <hppavilion[1]> Can you base a functional programming language on a deduction rule other than modus ponens?
19:08:43 <myname> i never understood why you actually have different rules that basically do exactly the same if you transform your input
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19:09:38 <myname> like, how is p -> q & p => q another rule than p | q & -p => q
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19:09:46 <myname> they do exactly the same thing
19:10:06 <hppavilion[1]> myname: For example, could I have a language that completely forgoes modus ponens and instead uses hypothetical syllogism?
19:10:21 <hppavilion[1]> (aka function composition)
19:14:23 <prooftechnique> myname: That's what normalization is for
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19:22:37 <hppavilion[1]> Functional language that corresponds to the Sequent Calculus?
19:24:28 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: how would it work?
19:25:02 <Vorpal> It seems to me (not having thought about this before) that modus ponens is inherently used when evaluating any sort of code
19:25:03 <zzo38> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gentzen for one way to make programming with a sequent calculus
19:25:38 <zzo38> (It lacks the implication operator)
19:27:16 <Vorpal> hm
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19:47:49 <hppavilion[1]> Oh god
19:48:00 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: ?
19:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make the Haskell of Sequent Calculi
19:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: ^
19:48:09 <Vorpal> ah
19:48:15 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I'm reading the correspondence and have no clue what's going on
19:48:33 <Vorpal> um?
19:49:10 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: apparently zzo already designed a language like that
19:49:15 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Oh, great
19:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I'm making one too
19:49:24 <Vorpal> <zzo38> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Gentzen for one way to make programming with a sequent calculus
19:49:24 <Vorpal> <zzo38> (It lacks the implication operator)
19:49:24 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> hm
19:49:35 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: might want to look at it
19:49:41 <hppavilion[1]> I am
19:50:17 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: I'm too tired to make any sense of it. The dangers of lying in a comfortable sofa with a laptop
19:51:37 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: Also I never ran into sequent calculus before, but to me it appears to be a rather complicated way of expressing things. Does it have additional power compared to classic logic? Or what is the big deal?
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19:53:21 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: Really, I'm trying to make a kit of languages based on the CHI
19:54:05 <Vorpal> hm
19:54:08 <Vorpal> <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: Also I never ran into sequent calculus before, but to me it appears to be a rather complicated way of expressing things. Does it have additional power compared to classic logic? Or what is the big deal?
19:54:26 <Vorpal> hppavilion[2]: still interested in that question, once your internet stopped messing up for you
19:54:45 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: It's not my internet, it's school internet
19:55:02 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: And it's not the internet, it's me getting on and off my computer because I have to move to go do things
19:55:12 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: And I don't want people messing with my laptop while I'm gone
19:55:21 <Vorpal> hppavilion[2]: fair enough
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19:55:32 <hppavilion[2]> Have to get up
19:55:36 <Vorpal> hppavilion[2]: anyway
19:55:39 <Vorpal> what about the question
19:56:06 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: Which question in particular?
19:56:20 <hppavilion[2]> I left right after you said you were too tired
19:56:42 <Vorpal> hppavilion[2]: <Vorpal> <Vorpal> hppavilion[1]: Also I never ran into sequent calculus before, but to me it appears to be a rather complicated way of expressing things. Does it have additional power compared to classic logic? Or what is the big deal?
19:56:45 <hppavilion[2]> Oh
19:56:48 <Vorpal> That one
19:56:55 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: I'm not sure; I don't understand it yet
19:57:01 <Vorpal> fair enough
19:57:01 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: I think it's just different, and a bit eso
19:57:18 <Vorpal> hppavilion[2]: it just looks like a more complicated way to express implication
19:57:22 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: It's a generalization of natural deduction, which reminds me of Horn Clauses
19:57:52 <Vorpal> instead of (P and Q) -> (X or Y) you write P, Q |- X, Y
19:57:59 <Vorpal> Or have I missed something
19:58:01 <hppavilion[2]> Yeah, that's what I'm getting
19:58:12 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: I think the point is that you can ONLY do stuff in that format
19:58:18 <Vorpal> Ah
19:58:21 <hppavilion[2]> And that format provides you with different ways of looking at things
19:58:23 <hppavilion[2]> Like cuts
19:58:30 <Vorpal> cuts as in?
19:58:35 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: Let me type it out
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19:59:01 <ais523> oh wow, today's roborosewater card (Seating Tute) is hilarious
19:59:14 <hppavilion[2]> If you have A, B |- q and C |- p, A, it looks like you can syllogize it into C, B |- q, p
19:59:44 <hppavilion[2]> Vorpal: That's a cut ^
19:59:48 <hppavilion[2]> I think
19:59:51 <Vorpal> um...
19:59:55 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: no it isn't
20:00:08 <ais523> also, you seem to have an extra element today
20:00:18 <ais523> cut is A |- B and B |- C syllogizing into A |- C
20:00:43 <ais523> something that mathematical logicians like doing is proving that it's admissible (i.e. any given cut, you can replicate using other rules of the logic)
20:01:00 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: OK, good. The world makes sense again.
20:01:33 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: I'm hppavilion[2] when hppavilion[1] is taken, usually when I get off the computer then get back on too soon
20:02:17 <ais523> I know it's an alternate nick
20:02:27 <ais523> but making amusing comments about people's alternate nicks is an occasional #esoteric tradition
20:03:21 <Vorpal> <ais523> cut is A |- B and B |- C syllogizing into A |- C <-- isn't this just A->B, B->C giving you A->C.
20:03:34 <Vorpal> in classical implication ways of writing it
20:03:55 <ais523> Vorpal: well treating |- as -> is a common "intuitive" way to think about mathematical logic
20:04:09 <ais523> but they aren't the same operator and if you want to use them the same way, you have to prove it
20:04:16 -!- ais523 has quit.
20:04:36 <b_jonas> yep
20:04:50 <b_jonas> they aren't even of the same type
20:05:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:05:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit).
20:06:04 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:06:17 <hppavilion[2]> I'm attempting to make a language kit called ChiLan (or something) that demonstrates the Curry-Howard Isomorphism
20:06:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, they aren't even of the same type. and the Gödel completeness theorem for first-order logic is one of the most interesting theorems of logic, both for the result itself and because of its two proofs.
20:06:59 <hppavilion[2]> What's a good event-driven model of computation?
20:07:09 <Vorpal> ais523: hm, fair enough
20:07:11 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: pi calculus
20:07:13 <hppavilion[2]> And is there a logic it corresponds to?
20:07:20 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: OK, I'll look into that
20:07:20 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: wait, where's your [1]?
20:07:21 <ais523> and yes, also pi calculus :-)
20:07:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit).
20:07:36 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: are you hppavilion[1]'s Evil Twin?
20:07:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:07:42 <ais523> what's my quit message?
20:07:48 <ais523> for these random disconnects?
20:07:50 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Client Quit
20:07:52 <hppavilion[2]> Or ()
20:07:53 <Vorpal> * ais523 has quit (Client Quit)
20:07:57 <ais523> gah
20:08:01 <Vorpal> * ais523 has quit ()
20:08:04 <b_jonas> ais523: Client Quit (which means your client sent an explicit QUIT
20:08:12 <ais523> Konversation's just randomly deciding my network is down
20:08:15 <ais523> with no evidence for this
20:08:18 <ais523> and quitting in response
20:08:34 <b_jonas> but your connection didn't live for long enough to send the quit message to us)
20:08:56 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's sometimes the server. When an irc server randomly decides to quit you, it invents fake reasons for why he did so.
20:09:09 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I'm pretty sure it's the client
20:09:22 <ais523> based on the messages it's printing
20:09:28 <b_jonas> ok, that's possible too
20:09:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit).
20:09:44 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:09:50 <ais523> [20:09] [Info] Disconnected from irc.freenode.net (port 6667).
20:09:52 <ais523> [20:09] [Info] Network is down, will reconnect automatically when it is back up.
20:10:07 <b_jonas> ais523: I think for me, it's mostly the network, because I get similar disconnections to non-irc stuff sometimes
20:10:13 <ais523> and the "network is down" is normally based on the network up/down status from NetworkManager
20:10:18 <b_jonas> the network connection from the machine that is
20:10:24 <ais523> but then, why would you send a quit if the network is down?
20:10:27 <ais523> you wouldn't expect it to be received
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20:11:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:11:29 <b_jonas> ais523: the tcp socket can breaks in one direction, so the QUIT you send can get through even if what the server says can't get to you. eventually there's a timeout because of the one-directional break, but the QUIT still gets through.
20:11:39 <ais523> I restarted my client in case it helped
20:16:27 <b_jonas> Wait wait.
20:16:51 <b_jonas> Does Wizards have at least three different announcements for the second Conspiracy set, each giving a different name for the set?
20:17:00 <b_jonas> Wtf.
20:17:11 <b_jonas> It's not April's Fool yet
20:17:42 <b_jonas> um, M:tG set
20:18:01 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Do you understand the rho-calculus?
20:18:09 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: no
20:18:16 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Damn
20:18:28 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: I was hoping to incorporate rho expressions into EsoLISP
20:18:46 <ais523> b_jonas: basically they had one announcement that they edited a couple of times, citing events in the plane on which Conspiracy takes place having overtaken them
20:19:03 <ais523> first they announced it was about Brago, but then a few hours later they announced that Brago had been assassinated
20:19:07 <ais523> so they had to change the name of the set
20:19:18 <b_jonas> I see
20:19:24 <ais523> (also they removed one card from it)
20:19:33 <ais523> then today they went and added a card back in and renamed it again
20:19:52 <b_jonas> as in, removed Brago?
20:19:55 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Is a #esoteric official LISP a decent idea?
20:20:01 <ais523> b_jonas: they didn't say which card was removed
20:20:08 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: you'll never get #esoteric to agree on an official anything
20:20:26 <ais523> also, I don't agree with restricting the language choices that the channel can use
20:20:28 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: A #esoteric pseudo-official LISP?
20:20:30 <ais523> sometimes one langauge is better than another
20:20:36 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: It's not a restriction
20:20:51 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: It's just as restricting as forget-me-nots being the Alaska state flower
20:20:54 <ais523> are you creating an esolisp or just a regular lisp specialized for implementing esolangs?
20:21:00 <ais523> hppavilion[2]: oh I see
20:21:00 <hppavilion[2]> There's no rule against actually using it
20:21:07 <hppavilion[2]> *against not using them
20:21:16 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: I think the goal is to do both xD
20:21:31 <ais523> but Underlambda isn't a lisp :-P
20:21:37 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: A LISP designed for implementing esolangs in an eso way :P
20:21:49 <ais523> (actually, that's aiming for three goals: being an esolang, being easy to implement esolangs with, and being easy to implement in esolangs)
20:21:52 <b_jonas> wait, "new conspiracies that twist the rules against your foes"? how is that an interesting feature of the set? that's the point of one of the Golden Rule: M:tG cards often change the rules, and usually in a way that helps you against your foes.
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20:22:09 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: And I want to incorporate rho expressions- rhoexp : lambdaexp :: rhocal : lambdacal
20:22:13 <b_jonas> Why do they put such meaningless marketing language in the annoucnement?
20:22:32 <ais523> b_jonas: all announcements seem to be like that
20:23:01 <ais523> the people who get annoyed by them aren't the audience that the announcement is aiming to reach
20:23:28 <ais523> you might want to read through the most recent GDS (sadly I don't have a link), one of the things they discussed was marketing taglines
20:23:39 <b_jonas> hmm
20:23:47 <b_jonas> the most recent one is the second one, right?
20:25:29 <ais523> I think so
20:26:42 <b_jonas> I do remember fake set names given, but most of them were for reprint sets with the announcements on April's Fools, with the exception of Mirrodin Pure in which case they were clear about how it can be fake from first place.
20:26:58 <b_jonas> You remember Mirrodin Pure, right? That was marketing for a future set done right.
20:28:16 <b_jonas> `? mirrodin pure
20:28:19 <b_jonas> `? icfp
20:28:22 <b_jonas> `? icfp contest
20:28:26 <HackEgo> icfp contest? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:28:26 <HackEgo> icfp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:28:26 <HackEgo> mirrodin pure? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:29:17 <b_jonas> Oh, that reminds me
20:30:23 <b_jonas> There's an esolang for which I should create an article on the wiki. Or at least I think it's an esolang.
20:31:18 <b_jonas> If a new language is created for the purpose of the designer wanting to create an implementation for a language, but with limits that make the language very restricted or hard to use,
20:31:36 <b_jonas> but the goal isn't to make the language bad, but to make the implementation simple under some conditions,
20:31:50 <b_jonas> then would that count as an esolang, or is it instead a non-esolang for educational purposes?
20:32:12 <hppavilion[2]> Huh. eso- means "within"
20:32:46 <Taneb> b_jonas: brainfuck and FALSE are both in that category
20:33:04 <Taneb> (both designed to have small compilers)
20:33:05 <b_jonas> Taneb: ah yes, and I think Mouse is too
20:33:31 <b_jonas> although brainfuck is sort of a special case, because it's very early
20:35:24 <b_jonas> Hmm, I wonder if I have my implementation for this stuff. Although it's very simple-minded, so I might not actually want to publish it.
20:36:27 <b_jonas> I wrote it ages ago, and I'm not sure where it is. Probably only somewhere in my old backups.
20:36:41 <b_jonas> (I found a doc-bug with it.)
20:37:30 <b_jonas> Ok, whatever, if someone wants, they can just write a new implementation. It's not hard.
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20:41:55 <ais523> b_jonas: Mirrodin Pure backfired I think, there are /still/ people asking for the card list to be released
20:42:15 <Vorpal> <ais523> b_jonas: basically they had one announcement that they edited a couple of times, citing events in the plane on which Conspiracy takes place having overtaken them <-- okay that is a neat PR thingy
20:43:26 <b_jonas> ais523: strange. I sort of remember some people writing that they thought Wizards has actually made two sets and were to decide on which one to release very late, but I don't understand where that came from, because it seemed clear enough from their communication that that's not the case.
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20:44:12 <b_jonas> ais523: although I'm not surprised that people are confused _now_, because the Wizards webpage is horrible, it's hard to find information about old sets and other old stuff
20:44:21 <b_jonas> they should make the website more informative
20:44:40 <ais523> every time they try to change the website they make it worse :-(
20:44:45 <Vorpal> what is the prefix for lambdabot now again?
20:44:51 <ais523> the general consensus just seems to be that Wizards are terrible at computers
20:44:52 <b_jonas> ais523: that too, sure
20:44:54 <ais523> Vorpal: @ or ?, both work
20:45:00 <Vorpal> ah, thanks
20:45:11 <ais523> or > as an abbreviation for @run
20:45:13 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, which is strange, because that's a problem they could fix by, you know, hiring people who are good at computers
20:45:30 <b_jonas> finding such people should probably be easier than finding people who are good at making games
20:45:35 <Vorpal> Hm it doesn't seem to respond in /msg? Pretty sure that used to work
20:45:39 <ais523> b_jonas: it could be that they're don't think that would be value for money
20:45:48 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe
20:45:48 <Vorpal> Oh there we go, it was just super slow
20:46:28 <ais523> <ais523 to lambdabot> @run 4 <lambdabot to ais523> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
20:46:32 <ais523> int-e: you may have a runaway process
20:46:55 <Vorpal> ais523: no kidding
20:47:01 <b_jonas> ais523: if I want to find listings of old theme decks (and other preconstructed decks), that's hard directly from their site, but the links to the listings are collected on en.Wikipedia (luckily the links to their articles don't usually break, I have to give that much to them)
20:47:24 <b_jonas> ais523: but if I want to find the set FAQs (release notes) for old sets, I'm out of luck, I have totally no way of finding them
20:47:25 <hppavilion[2]> esolinguiratia: Frustration caused by trying to program or speak in a language that makes absolutely no sense, particularly one not meant to be used, particularly when you're clueless to the fact that you aren't supposed to use it
20:47:36 <ais523> b_jonas: the links to the articles broke a while back and it took them like a week to fix them
20:48:00 <b_jonas> ais523: if I want to find older states of the Gatherer, I have to go to Yawgatog's site. I also have to go there if I want all the info from the Gatherer in a sane format.
20:49:08 <b_jonas> At least they have now fixed Gatherer to show flip cards and split cards in a sane manner, which was a long-standing bug, only now there are double-faced cards too, and THEY aren't shown in a sane way.
20:49:20 <b_jonas> (I don't know about level up cards, I haven't checked that.)
20:49:54 <b_jonas> And one small detail that really annoys me is that they don't have a complete list listing the official two or three letter codes for all old sets.
20:50:14 <b_jonas> You can try to guess from various filenames on their websites, but it turns out that for old sets they're sometimes inconsistent.
20:50:30 <b_jonas> en.wikipedia has a list, but I'm not sure it's always correct
20:51:00 <b_jonas> Wizards has at least made the http://magic.wizards.com/en/game-info/products/card-set-archive page much saner than it used to be,
20:51:29 <b_jonas> so now you can find a list of really ALL sets Wizards ever released (Astral isn't there, but that's not a product by Wizards, but I don't think anything else is missing),
20:52:02 <b_jonas> but from that page and what it links to, you can't find the set faqs, the codenames, and other important information.
20:52:23 <b_jonas> So there's some things they've improved, but also some things they've never fixed.
20:54:51 <b_jonas> On esowiki, is there a category for languages that are fully specified, in the sense that there's no undefined behavior in them that you could use for a future extension?
20:56:16 <b_jonas> Such as mod 256 BF with a tape infinite both left and right
20:57:27 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: Perhaps I could get people to like Esolisp by adding any good functions requested by channel members to either builtins, the stdlib, or (for large function groups), an external library
20:57:45 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think so
20:57:57 <ais523> there were some unauthorized categories created recently and nobody cared to do anything about it
20:57:58 <myname> what about the eso standards?
20:58:02 <ais523> so you /might/ be able to get away with it
20:58:13 <ais523> myname: those were mostly arguments about how to standardize the standardization process
20:58:27 <ais523> I'm not sure we got around to standardizing any actual languages
20:58:27 <myname> lol
20:59:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I got away with it once, but I don't think I'll create one for this
20:59:43 <b_jonas> It's probably a bad idea to use a category for this in fact,
20:59:59 <myname> why?
21:00:00 <b_jonas> since it will often happen that a language has several variants, grouped in the same article, and only some are fully specified
21:00:03 <b_jonas> like with Brainfuck
21:00:29 <myname> buildung a subpage?
21:01:11 <b_jonas> nah, often there are just too many variants and we're lazy
21:02:18 <b_jonas> Ok, let me see what other categories I need then. I need a year, and [[Category:Finite state machine]] since the amount of memory is fixed and small.
21:02:41 <b_jonas> Ah, and I need [[Category:Implemented]]
21:03:35 <b_jonas> Hmm, does [[Category:Non-textual]] count if the program is a binary file (machine code) rather than a text source?
21:05:13 <b_jonas> By the way, why don't we have a separate Appendix: namespace on the wiki for entries that aren't describing a language, eg. [[David Morgan-Mar]]?
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21:05:36 <ais523> I don't think we normally use non-textual for binary
21:05:47 <ais523> and because we have Category:Languages
21:05:58 <ais523> it's meant to be a site about esolanging, not necessarily a directory of esolangs
21:06:07 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:06:11 <ais523> [[esoteric programming language]] should almost certainly be in mainspace
21:06:13 <ais523> as should [[OISC]]
21:06:15 <b_jonas> ais523: of course, but still, I think this is what mediawiki namespaces for
21:06:33 <b_jonas> or at least it's how *.wiktionary uses the namespaces
21:06:36 <ais523> esolang's modelled quite heavily on wikipedia
21:06:50 <ais523> (I think it was originally started because of mass esolang deletions on wikipedia?)
21:06:59 <b_jonas> ok, whatever
21:07:12 <b_jonas> I'll just write the article now
21:07:15 <b_jonas> a short one at least.
21:11:44 <Taneb> I should write an article on COMPLEX
21:20:56 <shachaf> zzo38: gopher://gopher.metafilter.com/h/MetaTalk/Direct-your-gopher-client-to-gopher-gophermetafiltercom.html
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21:22:50 <b_jonas> pity I don't have my interpreter at hand, because that one was verified to work (at least mostly) and I could read it more easily than the docs
21:23:13 <b_jonas> but it's really old
21:26:24 <ais523> "Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because one of the following protocols (gopher) isn't associated with any program or is not allowed in this context."
21:26:33 <ais523> they removed the gopher client from Firefox? :-(
21:26:39 <ais523> IIRC it used to work
21:26:45 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, firefox hadn't supported gopher for ages
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21:30:17 <zzo38> Yes, although the gopher client included with old versions of Firefox wasn't very good anyways.
21:30:24 <zzo38> There are extensions to support it now
21:33:25 <impomatic_> Does anyone know where the iterated prisoner?s dilemma was first mentioned / defined?
21:33:59 <impomatic_> The prisoner's dilemma was defined by Tucker in 1950. Not sure about IPD.
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21:38:55 <ais523> hi impomatic_!
21:39:10 <ais523> my feeling is that the iterated prisoner's dilemma was around for a while before people realised that it was different
21:39:13 <ais523> and gave it a name
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21:58:04 <b_jonas> there
21:58:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46460 * B jonas * (+5144) Created page with "'''Viktor's amazing 4-bit processor''' is an esoteric computer hardware designed and soldered by the physicist Viktor T. Toth in 1999. The goal of the computer was for the cr..."
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22:00:54 <b_jonas> V. T. Toth also created a simple low-level language with arithmetic syntax (sort of like B, the predecessor of C), but I think that one doesn't count as eso, because it was clearly created and used for a practical purpose
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22:08:47 <b_jonas> There's some strange syntactic elements in it, like how there are no mandatory semicolons so the statements are separated in a strange way, sort of like lua; and how the dereference operator has a higher precedence than the function call operator; but I think these are only strange to use because we're so used to C.
22:08:52 <b_jonas> They're definitely not eso.
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22:11:42 <b_jonas> Also, it's so much a one-pass compiler that it doesn't even ever patch addresses or values emitted earlier, so there's absolutely no way to refer to symbols defined later.
22:11:51 <b_jonas> Which leads to some strange things.
22:11:59 <b_jonas> But again, it's certainly not eso by intent.
22:15:25 <impomatic_> Doesn't Viktor Toth also run an implementation of the original Essex MUD?
22:15:36 <b_jonas> impomatic_: he runs some mud, but I'm not sure what
22:15:39 <zzo38> I suppose it can therefore support streaming and may use less memory than otherwise
22:16:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: the webpage says the goal was to use little memory, but I think the actual reason is to make the implementation simple, since the computer he runs them on has a whole MEGABYTE of memory, and runs DOS, and that's more than enough to run a bigger compiler than this properly
22:17:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: since it writes the output to a DOS file, storing addresses it has to patch in RAM and later patching them with seek wouldn't be very hard
22:17:49 <b_jonas> it would still make it a one-pass compiler
22:18:13 <zzo38> Yes but such thing could be made also which using stdout
22:18:19 <b_jonas> even in the sense that the compiled output is ready to run, no need to link
22:18:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: on DOS, that doesn't have any significance, because DOS doesn't have pipes
22:18:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: would you want to output the compiled program to a serial prot?
22:19:43 <b_jonas> Wait
22:19:51 <b_jonas> I think I know the reason
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22:20:27 <b_jonas> he doesn't use all 1 megabytes of memory (or a large part of it), since the compiler is implemented in itself, which makes accessing segments difficult. thus, programs, including the compiler, generally only use linear addresses within one segments,
22:20:49 <b_jonas> so he has a total of 64 kilobytes of data memory
22:20:57 <b_jonas> but even in 64 kilobytes, this wouldn't be too hard
22:21:15 <b_jonas> symbol backpatching would easily fit since he already has a symbol table
22:21:26 <b_jonas> for referring to symbols defined earlier
22:29:08 <b_jonas> But then, who am I to criticize him? I never wrote a compiler similar to this.
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22:31:55 <Phantom_Hoover> oi Taneb
22:32:02 <Taneb> Hi, Phantom_Hoover
22:32:32 <Phantom_Hoover> do you have room in the leeds slash york area for 16 people to sleep tomorrow night
22:32:55 <Taneb> That is very sudden, also no
22:33:16 <Taneb> This your submarine jousting or whatever?
22:33:52 <Phantom_Hoover> yes
22:34:19 <Phantom_Hoover> turns out yorkshire isn't full of conveniently available couches like plymouth is
22:34:26 <ais523> how does submarine jousting compare to bf jousting?
22:34:42 <Phantom_Hoover> substantially different
22:41:09 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I've asked in the computer science in York channel but I wouldn't be to hopeful
22:41:37 <Taneb> The response thus far has been, and I quote, "noy to the lot of you"
22:43:10 <impomatic_> ais523: looking for early mentions of iterated (or repeated) Prisoner's Dilemma turns up a few from the late 50s but they all appear to be behind a paywall :-(
22:44:13 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: ooh, I've got a "depends on your threshold for standards of living"
22:57:56 <Phantom_Hoover> lol
22:58:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i think we're committed to driving home by now anyway
22:58:56 <Phantom_Hoover> thanks for the offer though, ofc. you can still show up for an extremely impromptu and distracted #esoteric meetup
23:01:30 <Taneb> You're playing tomorrow?
23:01:34 <Taneb> Alas, I'm in Hexham
23:04:53 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:06:27 <impomatic_> Is this jousting with real submarines? In the river?
23:07:00 <Phantom_Hoover> no, it's hitting a puck on the bottom of a pool with a little stick
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23:10:04 <rdococ> hey guys
23:10:16 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, that's probably for the best given that we're probably going to embarass ourselves totally
23:12:06 <rdococ> tired
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23:16:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46461&oldid=43374 * Rdococ * (+112) /* Structure */ Added an important note
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23:17:40 <rdococ> to be honest, I just put stub on everything to be safe...should I do that?
23:20:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46462&oldid=44767 * Rdococ * (-69) Oh my god, since when did I have GLaDOS and neurotoxin on my userpage?
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23:41:37 <hppavilion[2]> So, crazy idea
23:42:16 <hppavilion[2]> A language- called World Wide Web Calculus (or WCalc)- that basically is a formal mathematical system for web programming
23:43:06 <hppavilion[2]> Kind of amalgamating pi calculus, simply-typed lambda calculus, and some other things into a single, unified language that lets you use math as server-side programming
23:43:32 <hppavilion[2]> With things like HTTP requests as primitive objects
23:46:43 <hppavilion[2]> Of course, completely declarative
23:49:40 <rdococ> what about a language like HTML, but it programs stuff?
23:50:22 <rdococ> and then it has a <tpircs> tag which describes what the LMTH page looks like (yeah, fancy backwards ffuts)
23:54:34 <hppavilion[2]> O, hai rdococ
23:54:38 <hppavilion[2]> Haven't seen you in a while
23:54:45 <hppavilion[2]> Not since my first few weeks on IRC
23:54:47 <hppavilion[2]> :)
23:57:16 <rdococ> hai yay
23:57:45 <hppavilion[2]> rdococ: I'm making a demonstration HTTP server
23:58:13 <FireFly> You should probably abbreviate he World Wide Web Calculus as W3C
23:59:56 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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