00:07:48 Is there a Magic the Puzzling that says something like "Your upkeep is beginning; place your triggered abilities on the stack." and your opponent also has some things that trigger during your upkeep too? 00:08:03 -!- jaboja64 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:08:29 zzo38: I've never seen one. 00:08:40 But I think the only Magic: The Puzzlings that I've seen have been yours. 00:09:08 I have not myself written one like that (yet) 00:09:21 Do you know how to make up one? 00:09:28 No. 00:09:36 (I mean one Magic: the Puzzling in general, it doesn't necessarily have to be like that) 00:09:37 All your Magic: The Puzzlings have seemed way too complicated to me. 00:09:40 zzo38: might be interesting to port 3SAT into Magic 00:09:46 You need to know (or look up) so many cards. 00:09:50 so we could set Magic: the Puzzlings that had nothing to do with Magic, just maths 00:10:04 Like the entirety of The Dark. 00:10:39 shachaf: That is just one of them though, others name cards explicitly and some do not have so many 00:10:51 It's still a lot. 00:11:08 What if the puzzle was presented as a picture that showed every card you need to know to solve it? 00:11:46 That would do yes, if you can print it out, although having text file would also help 00:12:03 Even so, some puzzles that do have pictures do not actually show all of the cards, or contain obsolete text 00:12:48 At least if it was a web page where you could mouseover a card name to see it. 00:12:55 Those are pretty common. 00:13:23 I am using a format that is design to be not too difficult to parse by computer, so they could be converted into other formats 00:13:50 Oh, I did see at least one Magic: The Puzzling that wasn't yours. 00:14:13 My puzzles 5 and 6 and 7 do not have as many cards as the others 00:15:12 What do you call that ability on a card that lets you discard it from your hand? 00:15:29 Oh, cycling. 00:16:03 Cycling you can discard it and also draw a card 00:16:16 Not all ability to discard from your hand may be cycling though 00:16:31 Yes, I was looking for that specific one. 00:18:37 -!- p34k has quit. 00:22:31 Perhaps look at puzzle.5 and/or puzzle.6 and/or puzzle.7 and see if you can understand it 00:23:39 You should include a full URL. 00:24:19 i,i zzo38:puzzle.5 00:24:20 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.5 00:25:15 The others are in the same directory 00:45:09 zzo38: why not use HTML? 00:46:05 You could do funky stuff like... 00:47:24

Alice's hand:

Crumble

01:13:41 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 01:27:23 I suppose that is another way yes, although I prefer to post as plain text. However conversion would be possible if wanted 01:30:45 Although that kind of HTML does make some sense. Not only can CSS (either included or user-defined) be used, but also allow to convert formats more easily by using the class names provided. 01:41:49 (But it does mean it is require to parse HTML in order to make the conversion) 02:12:17 -!- lynn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:13:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:23:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:35:06 @ask fizzie Holy monologue, Batman. <-- you're not secretly oklopol, are you? 02:35:07 Consider it noted. 02:36:34 `` echo $'hi\nthere' 02:36:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 02:37:07 hi \ there 02:40:21 -!- bender| has joined. 02:43:11 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 02:43:49 theory/To be theory is to be like a theorem, but inferior. <-- . o O ( physicists might disagree on the "inferior" ) 02:44:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 02:44:34 ais523 has such exquisite timing 02:48:44 -!- boily has joined. 02:49:56 boihly 02:50:49 hellørjan! 02:51:05 @metar KROC 02:51:06 KROC 130154Z 26004KT 10SM BKN250 11/M08 A3003 RMK AO2 SLP174 T01061078 02:51:09 @massages-loud 02:51:09 olsner asked 1d 2h 7m 37s ago: what does it mean to "expand int-e"? 02:51:31 olsner: hellolsner. to expand int-e's `wisdom entry 02:51:58 oerjan: we're in Rochester for the weekend. there is much tile shuffling. 02:52:44 Another idea of a Magic: the Gathering card is one which alters the stipulation of the puzzle. (What strangeness!!! I wonder if extra rules might be needed to support such thing?) 02:55:23 boily: now i'll just have to guess which one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochester 02:55:29 (i suppose KROC is a hint) 02:55:38 KROC is a good hint. 02:56:34 Wikipedia reveals it right away 02:57:07 (Even the initial "K" indicates United States, so even if you do not look it up you might know that already) 02:57:18 well yeah 02:57:26 although most of the places are in the US 02:57:53 are any of the places hard 02:58:43 shachaf: should i get the swatter 03:00:27 oerjan: only if you're stuck between KROC and a hard place hth 03:00:54 * oerjan hits shachaf with the saucepan ===\__/ 03:01:06 i figure the swatter was too soft for this 03:03:01 i,i stuck between between a KROC and a DHAR EPLAC 03:03:21 I can't mapole shachaf; I'm travelling light. 03:03:31 DHAR ES SALA'AM 03:08:08 <\oren\> if you have 4 cores, should you not tell it to have 4 threads? <-- that's what ghc recommends, although s/thread/capability/ because ghc has lightweight threads and calls the actual underlying OS ones something else 03:09:15 I thought the proper voodoo number is n+1 for gcc and make. 03:10:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:11:33 bleh, kernel panics are so annoying 03:15:09 ais523: are these the kernel panics triggered by yesterday's spacetime disruption 03:15:38 there was a disruption? 03:16:18 around the time of the first mention of kernel panics 03:16:20 iirc 03:16:34 it's triggered via plugging my laptop into my router 03:16:38 but not always 03:17:09 ah a heisendisruption 03:18:19 sounds like some weird timing issue 03:18:32 What is the error message in the kernel panic message? 03:19:01 zzo38: Attempted to kill init! 03:19:23 but there were so many errors appearing beforehand that it's possible that something was just overwriting random memory 03:19:48 then don't kill init. 03:19:48 also this thing has a manufacturer of 1, product of 2, serial number of 3, and a different serial number of 0123456789ABCDEF 03:20:01 which makes me think that someone put dummy data in the device strings 03:23:52 given the amount of error spam before that I have a suspicion that something was randomly corrupting kernel memory 03:24:19 http://picat-lang.org/ I love this language 03:30:26 -!- boily has quit (Quit: RICE CHICKEN). 03:43:56 . o O ( they chose a less annoying waiting music today ) 03:44:15 still room for improvement 04:00:35 game 4 starting 04:04:28 will he win at least one? 04:04:53 that's the big remaining question 04:06:13 in the press conference after match 3 he said something on the lines of "this is a defeat for lee sedol, not for mankind" 04:07:25 <\oren\> defiant forever! death to the undying! 04:09:49 It is a defeat for Lee Sedol for that tournament anyways; not forever. The problem I have is if they do not mention enough details of the computers in use 04:10:22 apparently they are copying the second game so far 04:14:09 diverged 04:14:16 A game with complete information (such as Go), I would expect theoretically a sufficiently powerful computer can win (unless a perfect strategy would force the other player to win or draw). Games such as Kriegspiel chess do not have complete information. 04:15:26 Someone on ChessVariants mentioned something very silly, which is to use the "Swizzelstick" rule: You must touch your nose while moving the pieces, and you must urinate over your opponent's pieces if you win, otherwise it doesn't count. 04:16:39 Anyways "theoretically a sufficiently powerful computer" doesn't necessarily mean that it is, and even if it isn't doesn't necessarily mean the computer program will lose either. 04:17:20 What is your opinion of these things please? 04:18:12 are you asking serious opinions on the swizzlestick thing? 04:18:19 "eww" 04:18:34 No, not on that, I mean in general 04:19:21 I mean about game vs computer programs in general, such as chess and Go and so on. 04:20:06 we don't have sufficiently powerful computers that can analyze all the possible moves in go to a decent depth 04:20:34 i think generalized Go is something like EXPTIME-complete, so perfect play might be intractable. 04:22:14 Yes I know there is not sufficiently powerful computers, and probably would be too difficult to make up such a computer anyways (you can easily get into limits by laws of physics too I suppose). 04:22:36 Also by "generalized Go" what generalizations do you mean? 04:23:07 larger boards 04:23:21 O, OK 04:23:27 possibly larger amount of players? 04:24:54 Another thing is consider what significant differences (if any) when the board size is odd than when it is even 04:26:16 that's entirely unreasonable, obviously your chi can't flow on an even board 04:28:38 Whether or not your chi can flow on the board does not affect the rules of the game though, isn't it? 04:28:50 >:O outrage 04:32:54 izabera: B Nomic ran a "political go" for a while 04:33:06 where players could become allies which meant their stones counted as the same colour for the purpose of capturing 04:33:08 (it was multiplayer) 04:33:19 I'm not sure if there was a limit on alliances 04:33:36 -!- treaki_ has joined. 04:34:10 hmm, one color go 04:35:05 If you have only one colour of stones then you must play on all points in any order and then once it is full, you must remove all of the stones from the game. 04:35:26 http://senseis.xmp.net/?OneColourGo is something different though 04:35:52 so you've taken away the option to pass? 04:36:25 clearly the optimal strategy is to play one stone then pass twice 04:36:55 -!- treaki__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:36:56 and claim the entire board as territory 04:36:58 That is just something by the same name anyways 04:37:02 ais523: Yes of course 04:38:28 The "One Colour Go" mentioned on Sensei's Library is really you must use physically the same colours for both player just to confuse you as far as I understand it does not affect the rules of the game (although fouls might become more common, and you have to figure out how to deal with it; if you use a computer then the computer resolves it automatically) 04:39:51 like non-flagging minesweeper 04:40:16 I think speedruns play non-flagging 04:40:19 because of the time it takes to click the button 04:41:15 izabera: Yes I suppose it is a similar thing 04:41:26 Although then you don't have to worry about fouls 04:41:47 It just mean, you cannot annotate the game during the play 04:43:14 Possibly if you play minesweeper with scratching cards it might be more difficult to mark where you believe are the bombs too, although maybe it depend what kind of pencil you use 04:45:57 What kind of pencil are you going to use? 04:51:35 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:52:06 <\oren\> what if you could make or break alliances at any time? 04:55:48 <\oren\> then, you might cooperate with someone to capture some stones, and then they stab you in the back to get that territory 04:58:02 I sometimes get a kernel panic when switching the printer on or off 04:59:35 <\oren\> I have never gotten a kernel panic except for my stupid attempt at a kernel module 05:00:33 <\oren\> which, when loaded, accidentally overwrote something important 05:03:36 <\oren\> how would go work on a unbounded field? 05:03:44 <\oren\> such as a torus 05:06:05 \oren\: oh you could definitely break alliances any time 05:06:13 you might need a restriction on making them though 05:08:28 zzo38: Which kernel? 05:08:35 <\oren\> I have another idea but it will take some text to explain so I'll put it in my website after I figre it out. 05:10:02 shachaf: Is 3.2.0-87-generic x86_64 a kernel version number? 05:11:10 I now published version 1 of the JavaScript Xlib package (called "remote-xlib") and also atarted to make another package to provide widgets for use with it 05:11:31 zzo38: Linux, then. 05:11:49 Yes, it is Linux 05:29:29 <\oren\> how does this sound so far http://www.orenwatson.be/ungriddedgo.htm 05:30:32 <\oren\> it's go on a board with no grid 05:38:06 <\oren\> Now I'm wondering what the correct radius of a liberty is 05:39:32 <\oren\> hmm 05:39:46 <\oren\> probably 0.7 or so 05:49:37 wow at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/882147 – someone is seriously arguing that it's OK if a kernel feature sometimes silently doesn't work, reporting success, because programs should be prepared for that situation 05:50:13 their reasoning is that that's what the kernel does 05:50:21 -!- copumpkin has joined. 05:50:36 someone else said that that's clearly a kernel bug as it doesn't match the docs, and they said the docs should be fixed 05:51:07 then when someone else said that they fix the kernel to match the docs as they're closer to the intention, the original person suggested changing both (!) 05:51:20 this may well be trolling at this point, but it's pretty creative 05:52:13 <\oren\> rrgh i hite whoever that guy it 05:52:20 <\oren\> *hate *is 05:53:08 the interface in question is inotify, and the bug in question is tail -f not working 05:53:22 it seems that tail already has an undocumented workaround, spelled "---disable-inotify" 05:54:17 <\oren\> see this kind of person is why we need Linus and his FUCK YOUs 05:54:24 I like this naming convention 05:55:31 <\oren\> triple -? 05:55:35 yes 05:56:05 haha, someone arguing with the user brought up the hypothetical of "what if select() has a bug" to which the response was "patch every application using select() with a check against the kernel version" 05:56:19 or the alternative "give the kernels in question a database of select-using applications so that it can patch it" 05:56:27 The extra - is borrowed from CSS, I'm sure. 05:56:28 pretty much everything up to that point was plausible stupidity 05:56:44 that alternative, though, is clearly trolling 05:57:00 shachaf: aha 05:57:11 I was parsing it as (---))disable-inotify 05:57:17 * (---)disable-inotify 05:57:23 but you're parsing it as (--)(-disable-inotify)? 05:57:25 makes sense 05:58:10 several programs have hidden options with 3 dashes 05:58:41 `` factor ---debug 10 # first example that comes to mind 05:58:49 ais523: That's how I was trying to make sense of the triple -. 05:58:51 factor: unrecognized option '---debug' \ Try `factor --help' for more information. 05:58:56 -_- 05:59:01 fuck you HackEgo 05:59:05 Wow, that factor option is really hidden. 05:59:11 $ factor ---debug 10 05:59:13 [using single-precision arithmetic] 10: 2 5 05:59:57 does factor handle >64bit numbers (at all | in reasonable time) yet? 06:00:21 yes 06:00:30 with pollard rho 06:00:35 ais523: http://docs.factorcode.org/content/word-__gt__bignum,math.html hth 06:00:41 so it works better if there are several smaller factors 06:01:12 shachaf: factor(1), not factor the programming language 06:01:28 What sorts of programming languages can you factor? 06:01:40 $ factor 1000000000000 06:01:42 1000000000000: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 06:01:54 shachaf: I assume that was intended as a joke, but it's arguably an interesting question 06:02:05 It was meant halfway in between. 06:02:06 ais523: that's... < 64 bits 06:02:07 C factors into the preprocessor and rest of the compiler, I guess? 06:02:14 izabera: err, good point 06:02:16 it's > 32 06:02:27 Is there a sense in which you multiply programming languages? 06:02:29 $ factor 1000000000000000000000000 06:02:30 1000000000000000000000000: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 06:02:38 try with something less stupid... 06:02:40 no offense 06:03:01 shachaf: if you interpret programming languages as being defined by their compilers, then multiplication could be compiler composition 06:03:02 izabera: that seems kind of rude, "no offense" or not 06:03:18 Can you factor regular languages? 06:03:21 izabera: it worked for my purpose, which was seeing if factor ran quickly on a bignum with a lot of small factors 06:03:32 $ time factor $(tr -dc 0-9 < /dev/urandom | head -c 40) 06:03:34 2352950823555604190942608370577849550714: 2 13 23 1291 4210103 723923547371247021321949091 06:03:36 real: 0m0.034s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.027s 06:04:13 I guess that's one way to produce a random number… 06:04:15 literally the only test that's more meaningless is to test how fast it can factor 2^n 06:04:35 izabera: I would have done that but it's harder to spell 06:04:50 I was just checking to see if it could parse the number /at all/ 06:04:56 If a programming language is defined by a compiler, what's an interpreter? A special sort of compiler? 06:04:59 and this was inspired by the mention of "single precision arithmetic" 06:05:23 shachaf: compiles into user interactions, I guess 06:05:23 it's backed by gmp so that's handled decently 06:05:32 pollard rho doesn't really scale that well tho 06:06:40 ais523: Is it really compiling if it compiles a bit at a time? 06:08:22 now you've got me trying to work out how to write a lazy compiler :-) 06:08:49 ais523: A JIT? 06:09:17 With a JIT compiler it's reasonable to define languages that compile into infinite programs. 06:09:42 JITting sections would make sense, and probably be required 06:09:49 how do you parse an infinite program, though? 06:09:55 The output is infinite, not the input. 06:10:03 presumably it'd need to be specified as an AST rather than as a sequence of bytes 06:10:20 I'm thinking of compiling programs with higher-rank polymorphism by monomorphizing. 06:10:37 Particularly in the case of non-regular data types? 06:11:16 I was going to say that I don't like infinite programs. But of course the output of a compiler is also a program. 06:13:49 hmm, is there some way in Haskell to pattern-match on a data structure only if it's already been forced (and thus its constructor is available)? 06:13:53 some sort of "nonforcing match"? 06:14:19 I was thinking about how you'd do optimizations on an infinite AST 06:15:08 Not in Report Haskell, but you can do it in GHC. 06:15:36 I think? 06:15:46 Now I'm not sure. 06:23:59 -!- llue has joined. 06:24:57 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 06:38:47 Well, you can certainly do it with false negatives. 06:39:06 what are false negatives? 06:39:54 You might think something isn't evaluated when it is. 06:40:19 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Quit: Bye). 06:40:52 oh, I see 06:41:07 I didn't realise "false negative" was the phrase in that context 06:41:25 less than 100% false negatives? 06:41:48 Maybe it's not the phrase. 06:43:29 The phrases "false positive" and "false negative" are scow. 06:56:14 lee sedol in overtime, alphago with over an hour left 06:56:29 one of them has been using time inefficiently, it's unclear which 07:00:12 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:11:27 ooh, I think alphago got horizoned 07:11:36 it's adding stones to a dead group 07:12:45 as far as I can tell, that move it just played is clearly, objectively bad and it is obvious to a go player of pretty much nay skill level 07:15:27 (and it's probably not just me missing something obvious as the 9p commentator agrees) 07:27:06 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:31:50 -!- augur has joined. 07:39:50 -!- adu has joined. 07:51:37 whoa whoa whoa 07:52:01 the commentators don't seem to know about the horizon effect 07:52:01 shachaf: whoa? 07:52:16 the computer resigned 07:52:21 but it's a perfectly good description of the move at T11 (S11 on the commentator's board, which is misnumbered) 07:52:22 ais523: what's the horizon effect? 07:52:30 or that's what someone said in another channel? 07:52:35 and it's inexplicable otherwise 07:52:37 shachaf: still playing 07:52:46 oerjan: basically if you see an impending large loss in your future 07:52:48 ok, bad information 07:52:52 shachaf: no, they just discussed when it would resign 07:52:53 you play a series of forcing moves to push it further back 07:53:01 even if those moves are losing in their own right 07:53:02 oerjan: i don't have audio on hth 07:53:11 so that it's out of the range that your evaluation function looks like 07:53:14 *looks at 07:53:25 ais523: hm 07:53:31 it's a common issue with tree search AIs 07:53:53 (it's believed to have caused Deep Blue to draw a won a game in one of its famous matches against Kasparov) 07:54:42 the move at T11 forced Lee Sedol to play at S10; it was perfectly forcing 07:54:47 it just obviously loses one stone for no benefit 07:57:03 and Alphago was looking at a -16 loss around then, which is large but not necessarily gamelosing 07:57:12 err, -14, I miscounted 08:04:45 hm now he says it's close 08:06:19 alphago was commonly believed to be winning before it went haywire 08:06:25 now it's probably losing 08:36:26 ais523: that A8 move looks like another case? 08:37:43 -!- haavard_ has joined. 08:38:54 -!- sewilton has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:38:54 -!- zemhill has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:38:54 -!- zemhill has joined. 08:38:54 -!- haavardp has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:38:57 -!- sewilton_ has joined. 08:39:03 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 08:39:24 -!- erdic has joined. 08:41:47 ais523: redmond seems to be recognizing the effect but he's just calling them forcing moves 08:43:07 oerjan: he's realised that alphago is playing forcing moves but not why 08:43:21 (it's a response to realising that your evaluation of the position was too optimistic) 08:44:32 whoa whoa whoa 08:44:43 ah 08:44:50 alphago resigned 08:53:09 -!- bender| has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:03:26 3-1 09:03:42 Seems AlphaGo isn't unbeatable 09:07:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:11:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:14:35 cospiracy theory time: they lost on purpose 09:15:06 lee is almost a national hero and they were humiliating him too much 09:44:57 -!- bender| has joined. 09:45:47 -!- lynn has joined. 09:57:55 <\oren\> izabera: isn't it good to humiliate another nation's hero? 09:58:21 <\oren\> alphago is supposedly a british computer 09:59:03 \oren\, do you want all the Brits to be driven out of South Korea 09:59:23 Why is it good? 09:59:42 It's good if the other nation is your nation's enemy 09:59:45 But not otherwise 10:00:00 <\oren\> well it adds to your natin's hero's prestige to have beaten someone else's 10:30:08 -!- Reece` has joined. 10:36:42 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu). 11:03:00 zzo38: In puzzle.6, how is Artificial Evolution being used? 11:07:40 And what's the goal? 11:24:52 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:31:08 -!- boily has joined. 11:33:58 -!- boily has quit (Client Quit). 11:42:15 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:47:59 I'm late in the party and still I'm impressed of Lee's outcome 11:48:17 probably the best thing to both Lee and Google 11:49:20 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:21:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:23:04 spectators too 12:25:53 I'm glad we got to see that Alphago still displays classical MC tree search weaknesses (a horizon effect, essentially, leading to ludicruous moves when the AI is losing) 12:26:42 -!- jaboja has joined. 12:29:50 why are you glad? 12:30:24 is it something like "there's still a chance for humans" or...? 12:30:50 No. I was wondering whether the Alphago team had somehow solved this problem... now I know they didn't. 12:31:06 so... why are you glad? 12:31:30 <\oren\> to find out if they solved it I guess 12:31:34 Sorry, did you see the "we got to see" part of what I wrote? 12:32:28 yes 12:32:31 Anyway, I'm interested in Go AI progress ... as an observer. So yeah, what oren said. 12:32:37 doesn't look like good news 12:33:18 I like knowing where we stand. 12:34:32 If it hadn't done this while behind that would also have made me happy. But it takes a really strong player (or some artificial setup; I'm sure the Alphago team itself has also experimented with positions where Alphago would've been behind) to get Alphago into that position. 12:34:35 -!- idris-bot has joined. 12:35:52 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar. 12:35:53 izabera: The thing that annoys me about your question, btw, is that I initially wrote "I'm glad to see" and realized that this isn't quite what I meant. So I rephrased that part... and then you start asking why I'm glad :-( 12:36:14 sorry 12:38:21 And now I'm sorry that I made you apologize. Oh well, communication is hard. 12:40:23 And of course I'm also glad to see the human win, but that's on a much more emotional level, not really connected to my scientific curiosity. 13:20:46 heh heh, humans… you think you're better because you make something you think are the right moves when you're already losing 13:21:49 If you think those moves are somehow better or more elegant or something, you should have put that in the rules so we get more points for a match played elegantly, or something, rather than complaining that the bots don't do something you didn't ask for. 13:22:53 Also, congrats to both players. 13:24:10 b_jonas: you're not serious about the "humans" remark, right 13:25:08 Too bad I don't know Go well. ;d 13:25:10 :D* 13:30:46 b_jonas: The thing is, it's a situation where there are no "right moves" anymore; every move is losing. In such a situation, humans try to make the game more complicated (increase the variance of the likely outcomes), as far as it's possible without losing points; they bank on opponent's mistakes (which tend to be merely human)... Alphago apparently has not learned to do that; it assumes an... 13:30:52 ...almost perfect opponent, where this kind of strategy would just prolong the inevitable. 13:32:44 I'm sure it's a solvable problem (and one that a commercial Go program will have to solve; people will want to take handicaps against it, and then the computer will be behind for most of the game... There are some known approaches too, "dynamic komi" being perhaps the most promising) 13:33:51 int-e: maybe, but how much of that works in practice against such a strong player as Li Sedol? 13:34:32 Ultimately one needs some measure of how hard an overplay (technically a mistake, but one that is hard to refute, only incurs a small loss if refuted and is profitable otherwise) is to refute. 13:35:16 b_jonas: Well, the endgame is hard... it's easy to lose half a point here, half a point there, when moves still have sizes of 5 points an more. 13:40:00 and from what I've read the game was still quite close 20-30 moves before Alphago resigned; around that point it started to play forcing moves that lose points. 13:56:24 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:02:58 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 14:04:51 -!- earendel has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 14:53:00 Bernard Madoff wants to give me 100 million euros. 14:53:04 He regrets his crimes and wants my assistance in giving this money away to charity. 14:53:09 He's "rightly convinced that somebody of your statue [sic] will not stoop so low to derail in this kind of social and humanitarian task --". 14:53:13 I wasn't even aware I had a statue. 14:53:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 14:53:52 well you have a coin 14:53:59 why wouldn't you have a statue as well? 14:54:14 That's true. And statues usually don't stoop, if they're well made. 14:55:37 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 14:56:37 -!- nys has joined. 14:57:10 -!- p34k has joined. 14:57:56 but I guess you could put a statue on track to derail a train 15:20:39 \oren\: I read someone's idea for ungridded Go once. In that version, two stones have to actually touch in order to be connected. A liberty is any spot where you could put a connected stone. 15:21:45 tswett: heh. someone did mention go on grids other than a plain rectangular grid, but I haven't heared of an ungridded one yet. 15:21:51 http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoOnABoardWithoutLines 15:22:00 in fact, wait, I might even have a link 15:23:12 there's the whole http://senseis.xmp.net/?Variants page... some links are broken though 15:23:39 in particular the one on http://senseis.xmp.net/?GeneralGraphGo :-( 15:24:25 hmm no 15:26:13 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 15:36:58 -!- carado has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:38:15 -!- nys has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:41:12 So, looks like people like Bridge Go: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BridgeGo 15:46:58 So, I'm at my parents' place for the Easter break 15:47:05 Forgot one or two things 15:47:11 Such as my phone charger 15:47:28 And the doohickey to get my desktop to connect to wi-fi 15:49:14 Borrow a phone charger from them 15:50:10 -!- shikhin has changed nick to Their. 15:50:23 -!- Their has changed nick to shikhin. 15:54:14 -!- carado has joined. 15:54:54 b_jonas: that solves one of the issues 15:59:39 wait wait. Easter break? But Easter is more than two weeks away, isn't it? 16:01:12 b_jonas: I get a month off 16:01:47 b_jonas: minus the "more than"? (unless you insist on waiting until Monday) 16:02:56 int-e: um yes, sorry, exactly two weeks away 16:15:49 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:20:26 -!- Reece` has joined. 16:25:30 -!- jaboja has joined. 16:32:33 `` seq 10 | head ---presume-input-pipe -c -5 16:32:46 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 16:33:48 --- is a thing? 16:33:55 for secret options 16:34:04 :o 16:34:07 `` seq 10 | head ---presume-input-pipe ---disable-inotify -1 16:34:09 head: unrecognized option '---disable-inotify' \ Try `head --help' for more information. 16:34:24 `` seq 10 | tail ---presume-input-pipe ---disable-inotify -1 16:34:25 tail: option used in invalid context -- 1 16:34:32 `` seq 10 | tail ---presume-input-pipe ---disable-inotify -f 16:34:35 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 16:35:17 `` touch x; rm ---presume-input-tty xc 16:35:19 `` touch x; rm ---presume-input-tty x 16:35:22 rm: cannot remove `xc': No such file or directory 16:35:25 No output. 16:37:57 fungot, which level are you stuck on? 16:54:17 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:02:43 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 17:11:23 -!- vanila has joined. 17:11:35 https://gist.github.com/rui314/3b66fe949b5ee3b21120 17:13:02 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/shinh/bflisp/master/bflisp.bf 17:14:28 -!- fungot has joined. 17:22:30 nice :) 17:23:35 how large a subset of c does it compile? 17:24:41 im sure you can find the answer by reading the source 17:31:37 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:35:04 -!- gremlins has joined. 17:35:36 -!- Reece` has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 17:45:55 -!- jaboja has joined. 17:49:16 -!- earendel has joined. 18:00:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:00:39 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:00:50 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 18:01:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:04:03 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:04:16 https://twitter.com/senokay/status/709077093192077312 I'm not really good at bc. 18:04:21 dc* 18:06:04 :D cool 18:06:09 it computes pi? 18:43:44 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:47:38 -!- Reece` has joined. 18:48:45 -!- gremlins has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 18:49:00 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:59:51 -!- heroux has joined. 19:06:22 -!- XorSwap has joined. 19:23:35 fungot, do you have values that are static and some that aren't? 19:23:35 b_jonas: another t-shirt worthy phrase from rodgerthegreat x-d a language based on actual music. where the wiki files go 19:28:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:36:22 fungot: what does your t-shirt say? 19:36:22 olsner: should i do that? 19:37:04 `? fungot 19:37:05 int-e: no. you cannot solve the halting problem... and a political career ruined by the fact that we're whining about ook! on irc is that it's overloaded as the extension for scheme files written in elisp 19:37:24 fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason. 19:37:47 I like the idea of a political career being ruined by the fact that we're whining about ook! on irc. 19:38:46 maybe any one of us could've had a political career if it wasn't for this channel 19:39:19 You may be right. So thanks #esoteric for being here! 19:39:39 fungot for president 19:39:39 shachaf: where do you want the number of 19:40:32 fungot: what are your views on taxes 19:40:32 shachaf: oh well... 19:41:04 fungot: I concur 19:41:04 int-e: when your projects are there, o fnord. eih�n siit� silloin oo mit�� fnord." 19:41:25 fungot: but I suspect that's going too far 19:41:25 int-e: it's just a fnord sexpr to html converter... but right now i'm preoccupied with the oracle of bacon fat and bacon strips? yum. fnord saa fnord fnord verkkotunnuksia.', oh yes. 19:41:40 ^style 19:41:40 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube 19:42:10 fungot: en puhu suomea 19:42:10 shachaf: strange layout. care about one thing. why isn't it just a different way no. i keep thinking of mold for some reason, i decided to write a mandelbrot for some esolang 19:42:11 fungot: ok, so you don't want to talk about healthcare. in that case, what are your views about the government interfering with the education system? 19:42:11 b_jonas: oh i must've seen her before then. all the standard stuff that pc-select does i have a non-vector version at my homepage is fnord lg n) 19:44:36 fungot: may the fnord be with you... 19:44:37 int-e: in poland, comics are free to implement it? seat of their pants?) those few hours the basement computer class was open for all. i cannot take this imperative madness, i have written an infix-to-prefix converter but it isnt what he though 19:45:45 random noise gets boring 19:45:56 fungot: who do you think should be the next us supreme court justice twh 19:45:56 shachaf: if you ask me 19:46:02 fungot: i am asking you 19:46:02 shachaf: yep. black lung." 20:11:09 -!- variable has joined. 20:16:11 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:21:18 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:22:32 -!- Vorpal has joined. 20:25:46 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero). 20:28:05 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:33:13 -!- Vorpal has joined. 20:40:03 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 20:50:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:03:30 While the bug I have reported in SQLite has been fixed in the code repository much earlier than when 3.11.0 was released, it seem that the change is not merged into the released version until 3.12.0 though. Do you know why? 21:03:54 zzo38: Did you see my question above? 21:04:35 No, can you repeat please? 21:04:55