00:00:08 . o O ( well, except that dretched surströmming. DAMNED EXPORT LAWS! ) 00:00:43 tswett: And, for some reason, waste instruction space with instructions that treat their arguments as two 1-byte numbers (a, b) and have the ALU for it treat it as a+bk 00:00:58 k^2=0, k != 0 00:01:11 So lemme see. I've got: ALU instructions, memory instructions, branching instructions. 00:01:19 hppavilion[2]: SKIPPY would, of course, skip the following python command. 00:01:29 oerjan: That was my first thought 00:01:46 tswett: Why not include labels as instructions? 00:02:01 That sounds insane. 00:02:09 tswett: So every JMP must have a corresponding RCV 00:02:09 Which is probably the point, isn't it? 00:02:26 Not only that, but the RCV must specify where it's coming from. 00:02:37 tswett: Well duh; I thought that was implied 00:02:57 tswett: Even better, you have BRIDGE commands, with one argument, that each serve as a JMP to the other BRIDGE with the same argument 00:02:59 Having only certain points that can be jumped to has precedent. 00:03:06 shachaf: Yes 00:03:32 tswett: And RBRIDGE takes two arguments, then bridges to the parter, offset by its second argument 00:03:43 Bridges to the what? 00:03:58 tswett: Every BRIDGE command has an argument 00:04:13 By "parter" do you mean "partner"? 00:04:15 * int-e read a nice article on cheating in contract bridge last weekend 00:04:17 Yes 00:04:40 But I suspect this is unrelated. 00:04:42 int-e: How do you cheat? 00:04:44 tswett: And when one is encountered, it's a JMP to the other one with the same argument (if none other exists, it either terminates or restarts the program, not sure which) 00:04:47 boily: just import the ingredients for surströmming, then make it yourself hth 00:05:00 * oerjan suppresses evil cackle 00:05:27 shachaf: by communicating through side channels (outside of betting and cards played) 00:05:34 Let's say there are 8 registers, and they're all 16 bits. Now, I'm not sure if the instruction pointer should count as one of the registers. 00:05:48 tswett: No, that would be too easy 00:05:55 tswett: And defeat the point of BRIDGEs 00:05:57 I'm thinking... yes. 00:06:09 http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/07/the-cheating-problem-in-professional-bridge is the article (Schneier mentioned it in Cryptogram) 00:06:18 tswett: Will you be able to modify the IP manually? 00:06:22 Then you can jump by loading stuff into a register, then MOVing that register to the IP register. 00:06:26 Yeah. 00:06:33 tswett: That seems too common 00:07:11 tswett: counting the instruction pointer as a register is almost always a bad idea 00:07:17 That leaves 7 general-purpose registers. 00:07:21 tswett: Didn't QUACKVM™ by zzo38® do something like that? 00:07:30 b_jonas: why's that? 00:07:38 tswett: And not a bad idea in an #esoteric way 00:07:51 tswett: INC %ip 00:08:20 Incrementing the instruction pointer... the way I'm imagining it, that would mean "skip the next instruction". 00:08:45 The instruction loop would essentially be: fetch the instruction; increment the instruction pointer; execute the instruction. 00:08:47 tswett: It would 00:08:49 decrementing the instruction pointer 00:08:51 tswett: DEC %ip 00:08:56 There you go. 00:09:09 tswett: DEC %ip hangs forever, I imagine 00:09:12 Yup. 00:09:26 tswett: The IP-as-a-register thing has been done to death; seriously, try BRIDGE :P 00:09:26 hppavilion[2]: only if all instructions are one byte 00:09:52 oerjan: Oh, right, I assumed the IP would point to the instruction itself, not the individual byte 00:10:23 oerjan: But if INC %ip is SKIP, then DEC %ip is hang forever 00:10:50 oerjan: Assuming INC and DEC work the same way, of course 00:11:09 oerjan: Though DEC %ip as the first instruction will actually end the program, I believe 00:11:19 Because integer underflow 00:11:42 or just page fault 00:11:49 oerjan: Yes, or that 00:12:02 Oh right. I figure that each instruction would always be two bytes. 00:12:05 oerjan: Though page fault ends the program, IIIAG, so... 00:12:10 no, wait 00:12:15 So the IP would increase by two each time, not one. 00:12:26 DEC %ip will hang if it's 1 wide 00:12:28 tswett: Just make it multiply IP by 2 before fetching 00:12:39 Now here's a question. How much RAM should there be? 00:12:43 if it's more, you'll go to something inside it 00:12:45 tswett: That way you can still SKIP with INC %ip 00:12:56 hppavilion[2]: but then people won't be able to do odd-aligned instructions! 00:13:10 tswett: Well that's a stupid thing to do anyway... 00:13:43 I definitely think I want to allow odd-aligned instructions. That will (although it will be very difficult, perhaps practically impossible) let a single piece of code mean two different things, depending on the alignment. 00:14:13 tswett: It's so impossible that it's pointless 00:14:19 tswett: What's wrong with BRIDGE? 00:14:38 I'm not trying to make an esoteric instruction set. 00:15:00 -!- nooga has joined. 00:15:13 There are pretty much two RAM options. Have no more than 64 KiB of RAM; or have more than 64 KiB of RAM. 00:15:54 That works for any number. 00:15:56 I guess I shouldn't say "RAM"; I should say "memory space". 00:16:00 OK... 00:16:07 Yes, but there's a significant divide between the two buckets. 00:16:40 So, let's imagine we go with the 64 kiB of RAM. What can you do with that? 00:16:56 Play a game of battleship? 00:16:57 Anything you could do on a C-64. 00:17:45 fizzie: Assuming that the IS is C-64 complete, duh 00:18:01 tswett: how does that work for quantum computers? 00:18:04 Let's suppose the display is 64 by 64 pixels. If you use a luxurious 4 bits per pixel, that means the number of bytes used for a display buffer is... 00:18:10 Well, it was an approximation. 00:18:11 > 64 * 64 `div` 2 00:18:13 2048 00:18:29 2 kiB. That's not bad at all. 00:18:56 Anything you can actually compute like that sounds remarkably simple for a console graphics mode. 00:19:15 What do you mean? 00:19:33 Well, I mean. No character cell sort of thing? 00:19:37 tswett: With * `div` 00:19:59 oh tiles, sprites... hmm 00:20:16 Right, right. 00:20:21 I bet modern consoles just have framebuffers though 00:20:23 Yeah, I think the GameBoy used tiles, right? 00:20:31 tswett: Are you going to have a stack? 00:20:43 I like the idea of making the programmer invent a stack. 00:20:45 (Or a belt?) 00:20:46 I mean, it's easy. 00:20:46 oerjan: that sounds lovely! brilliant! 00:20:52 (stupid 3d graphics ;-) ) 00:21:08 tswett: Fair enough 00:21:20 int-e: How does * work for quantum computers? :P 00:21:34 Here's an idea. Make it so that RAM is divided into 32 2-kiB "pages", and the program can use any of those pages as the display buffer. 00:21:42 Like, you can just say "now I want to display page 17". 00:21:49 tswett: Are you going to have computed jumps? If so, will they be relative for static? 00:21:58 int-e: I didn't understand your quantum computer question, so I ignored it. 00:22:12 hppavilion[2]: yes, and I think I'll make all addressing absolute. 00:22:21 tswett: it's fine. I just wondered about a meaningful definition of RAM size 00:22:49 Now, the benefit of having 64 ki addressable locations is that you can store a memory address in a 16-bit word. 00:22:51 Very nice. 00:22:53 tswett: Why not have a memory pointer head that all memory is accessed relative to? 00:23:03 Oh wait, that's x86 00:23:20 Having something like that isn't out of the question. 00:23:45 hppavilion[2]: "segment" 00:23:48 tswett: I assume you'll have a FLIP instruction that updates the display, as opposed to updating every instruction cycle? 00:23:58 Yeah, definitely. 00:23:59 int-e: That's what I thought, but I just said x86 to avoid looking stupid 00:24:23 tswett: What are conditionals? 00:24:34 Like... conditional branching? 00:24:44 tswett: Just any sort of conditional code 00:24:50 You get "jump if zero" and "jump if not zero" instructions. 00:24:51 tswett: Conditional branching is /one/ option 00:24:55 tswett: Oh... 00:25:11 A lot of them have tiles, or even for an addressable-bitmap mode at least a color palette where you have, say (for the C64 standard multicolor mode) "2 bits per pixel", but of the four possible colors one is a global background color, while the other three can be freely selected separately for each 4x8 cell. 00:25:14 tswett: Why not "Jump if 42" and "Jump if not 42"? 00:25:41 (And then for how much memory a graphics buffer takes you need to start counting the bitmap and attributes separately.) 00:26:05 hppavilion[2]: that's a good question. 00:26:10 tswett: Good. 00:26:46 tswett: Why not put a minimized call/cc in the set as a builtin? For... some reason? Somehow? 00:27:17 call/cc/if 00:27:18 That's called "push all registers, change the stack pointer, and pop into all registers". 00:27:25 tswett: Oh 00:27:39 tswett: And... you don't have a stack, so... 00:27:47 Wait, all registers or all memory? 00:27:50 There's nothing that's "the stack". You can have a stack. 00:28:01 tswett: Yes, that's what I menat 00:28:03 *meant 00:28:11 All registers. Pushing all memory would mean inserting all memory into memory. 00:28:19 tswett: Ah, yes. Right. 00:28:55 tswett: Figure out something new & exciting for conditionals, whynot. 00:29:01 Lemme be a little conservative here. The address space is 64 KiB, but you only get 8 KiB of general-purpose RAM, including the video buffer. 00:29:21 tswett: What's the other 56 KiB for? 00:29:26 I dunno. 00:29:34 a huge part of it will be ROM 00:29:39 Yup. 00:29:40 int-e: Ah, yes. ROM. 00:29:42 Lemme think about the speed. 00:29:55 maybe some memory mapped IO for good measure 00:30:24 Esoteric conditionals... like... "Call this program with the accumulator set to this other value" 00:30:27 I want it to be just fast enough that you can touch every pixel several times per frame. 00:30:34 tswett: Beat THAT, x86 00:30:34 and of course you need some free address space for future extensions 00:31:10 Or, instead of the accumulator, mem[0] 00:31:14 Here's an idea for an esoteric conditional. There are no goto statements at all; the program counter just loops through all of memory. You do "conditionals" by loading code in front of the program counter. 00:31:56 tswett: Eeeeeew? 00:32:15 So, video memory is about 2,000 bytes, and you'll want to touch it about 20 times per second, meaning 40,000 bytes per second of... stuff in order to touch it all once per frame. 00:32:28 hppavilion[2]: classic trampoline. nothing to worry about. much. 00:33:04 About 200,000 instructions per second sounds like a pretty decent amount. 00:33:26 RSS n "restart the program with acc=n, lak=curline" 00:33:34 tswett: which is why old consoles pretty much *needed* tiles and the like (you want to do other things besides drawing stuff as well) 00:33:42 Right. 00:34:47 Now, I don't think I can get away with having an audio buffer. 00:35:02 tswett: You're going to need controllers, too 00:35:45 Audio uses about 40,000 samples per second. You can use fewer, if you want everything to sound muffled. 00:35:51 tswett: just have 3 square wave generators or so :P 00:36:24 There's nothing stopping me from having sine wave generators instead. 00:36:26 Or whatever. 00:36:29 FFT sound generation! 00:36:36 BytePusher has an audio buffer. Granted, it's pretty fast. 00:37:18 (Then again, it's an OISC.) 00:37:26 Wait, FFT sound generation might actually be a good idea. 00:38:20 tswett: FFT? 00:38:32 Fast Fourier transform. 00:38:38 Free Fourier Transform? 00:38:45 Oh, fast 00:38:47 If by that you mean "write a magnitude spectrogram", it'd at least be different. Calling it a good idea might be pushing it. 00:38:57 FFT is a highly popular implementation of the discrete fourier transformation. 00:39:01 Lemme think about this. 00:39:48 Let's imagine if you had a frame that's 1 second long and contains 40,000 samples. 00:40:12 Each sample represents, uh, 25 microseconds. 00:40:37 tswett: Wikipedia says the DFT uses complex numbers 00:40:45 So if you want to use that for audio- whooooooa 00:40:47 It sure does. 00:41:21 Now, the discrete Fourier transform of that frame buffer thing there... 00:41:34 It's possible to make up a "plausible" phase with pretty little loss of generality. 00:41:37 tswett: What do you think complex sound is like? 00:41:52 hppavilion[2]: check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_cosine_transform 00:41:57 * hppavilion[2] is not, as a matter of fact, stoned right now 00:41:59 hppavilion[2]: note that the Fourier transform is already super commonplace in audio progressing. 00:42:04 s/progressing/processing/ 00:42:43 Each complex number represents (if I may fuzz things a bit) the amplitude and phase of a bit of wave. 00:42:52 tswett: okay, how do you shift a 150ms second sample inside the 1s frame? even worse, what if it spans two frames? 00:43:27 I'm not actually going to have a 1 second frame; I'm just trying to figure out what the numbers here are gonna be. 00:43:27 and just for the sake of dropping a buzzword I don't really understand, why not use wavelets ... 00:44:06 tswett: regardless, shifting samples around may be an issue. 00:44:08 tswett: Thou shalt not fuzz things 00:44:10 Not even a bit 00:44:12 - God 00:44:38 * boily fuzzes hppavilion[2] with his mapole 00:44:54 I think after DFT, it's gonna be... still 40,000 samples, I guess, but now each sample, instead of representing 25 microseconds, represents 1 hertz. 00:45:38 For reasons, the second half of that is going to be the mirror image of the first half, so you can just forget about it and use 20,000 numbers instead of 40,000. 00:45:39 But... 00:45:48 They're complex numbers instead of real numbers, making them effectively 40,000 again. 00:45:50 `? hertz 00:46:02 hertz? ¯\(°_o)/¯ 00:46:06 tswett: Eeeeeew? <-- https://esolangs.org/wiki/SMITH 00:46:12 No, it's 20001 complex numbers, with a little bit of redundancy for the first and last. IIRC. 00:46:20 oerjan: EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEW! 00:46:23 I was wondering. 00:46:34 I wouldn't build a system where the code is expected to fill in the full complex FFT of whatever signal is going to come out of it. But something where the code is expected to create a magnitude spectrogram (or in other words, produce an Y-sample magnitude spectrum X times/second) might be borderline plausible. 00:46:44 tswett: I do that occasionally, too 00:46:48 (The conversion would need to be a little bit more involved than just taking the FFT.) 00:47:06 Right, because the FFT doesn't reduce the number of numbers you're dealing with. 00:47:10 It's still about 40,000 a second. 00:47:39 More to the point, it'd be very difficult to make a continuous waveform with that thing. 00:48:10 You'd have a discontinuity at every frame boundary, unless your audio-generating code was very very careful with the phases. 00:48:46 Right. 00:49:11 Yeah, lemme see here. 00:49:19 Like... what if you want to have a 40.5 Hz wave? 00:49:51 > 40000 / round (40000/40.5) 00:49:52 No instance for (Show a0) 00:49:53 arising from a use of ‘show_M467247251696577848318660’ 00:49:53 The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous 00:50:26 You don't have one of those, you only have 40 Hz and 41 Hz... and all the others. And you can make a 40.5 Hz wave out of that, but you'll need to keep changing the phases. 00:50:47 > 40000 / fromIntegral (round (40000/40.5)) 00:50:49 40.48582995951417 00:51:03 All right, let's forget about audio for the time being. 00:51:15 Even for a continuous 41 Hz tune, you'll have to set the phase component "correctly" for every output frame. 00:53:45 fizzie: how do you figure? 00:54:18 One of the Fourier transform sample things is going to correspond to exactly 41 Hz. 00:54:27 No phase difference from one second to the next. 00:57:42 So where was I? 64 kiB address space, 8 kiB of RAM. 200,000 instructions per second. 64x64 pixel display, 4 bits per pixel, use whatever palette you want. 00:58:00 `learn hertz (German for heart) is an SI unit equal to the frequency of an average heartbeat. 00:58:03 Learned 'hertz': hertz (German for heart) is an SI unit equal to the frequency of an average heartbeat. 00:59:15 No no, the German for "heart" is "Hörte". 01:01:28 lol 01:03:20 Mr. dswedd made a joke. 01:04:33 i know, although shockingly the spelling _is_ a teeny bit off. 01:05:16 that pun hertz. 01:06:52 -!- jaboja has joined. 01:06:58 megahurtz 01:07:07 Next question is, I guess, how much space should be provided for long-term storage? 01:07:19 (the Schlock mercenerary webcomic used that term somewhere, I believe) 01:07:27 tswett: for what? 01:08:09 For "cartridges" (ROM storing program code and static data) and "savegames" (read-write memory for persistent stuff). 01:09:04 wasn't this supposed to be esoteric 01:09:16 No. 01:09:35 int-e: They had also kill-o-huertz. 01:09:45 int-e: http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2000-08-06 01:10:01 pity, you could add some write only memory and some read once memory 01:10:18 (unbuffered DRAM? hmmmmm) 01:12:31 is it possible to have unbuffered ram? 01:12:36 oh, only two occurrences? http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-01-28 01:12:44 Also right, you could have individual sine wave components. And if you had it fully imaginary, they'd even all hit 0 right at the edges of the frame, so you could adjust their amplitudes between frames. 01:12:50 Still, for style/speciality points I'd go with something where you paint a magnitude STFT only, and then use something like http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/TASSP.1984.1164317 to synthesize the audio, because then you don't need to be careful at all, and can pretty much just finger-paint spectra. Including (assuming a suitably rapid framerate) dropping sampled "images" wherever and thus ... 01:12:56 ... pitch/time-shifting them however you please. 01:13:37 boily: well, it's a bit hard to use because somebody needs to put the data back into the rows (since reading destroys them) and manually refresh them as well... 01:13:45 And the second one doesn't even mention the SI prefixes like kill-o. 01:13:50 * oerjan machte einen Wordspiel mit "Hertz". Es brachte Boily vielen Schmerz. 01:13:57 boily: speaking of DRAM. SRAM is a different matter entirely 01:14:21 oerjan: "Wordspiel" sounds like a Microsoft joke to me. 01:14:55 and I guess "grosser Schmerz" is more natural than "viel Schmerz" 01:15:43 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:15:51 oerjan: Anyway I can't decide whether the 'd' in "Word" was intentional. 01:16:44 dammit 01:17:13 *t 01:17:29 * oerjan beats Muphry with the saucepan ===\__/ 01:18:08 good old muphry 01:18:45 * oerjan should probably have just used google translate. 01:18:47 Fun fact: Z80 has a DRAM refresh register, R. It's an 8-bit register, where the low 7 bits are automagically incremented after every instruction fetch, and its value is sent as the low 7 bits of the address bus (with the RFSH line asserted) during one part of the machine cycle. 01:18:51 The intention being that you can hook up some DRAM without providing any (or at least much) extra refresh circuitry. 01:19:50 I guess that makes sense on ram that doesn't have faster CAS access than the whole RAS/CAS thing `D 01:19:51 :D 01:20:02 ie "almost static" ram 01:20:15 low clock frequency 01:20:50 right 01:20:51 I'm gonna be generous and say that for a cartridge, you get a whopping 256 kiB of storage. And that's just the one—your game can span multiple cartridges. 01:20:56 the limit is something like 3mhz 01:21:04 oerjan: you didn't? 01:21:07 But switching between cartridges takes 2 seconds, and the screen can't update while this is happening. 01:21:28 int-e : it makes sense in an NMOS chip 01:22:04 which are so slow that you can share like half the cycles for the CPU other half for the GPU 01:22:12 As for savegames: You get a super generous 16 MiB. But it's byte-at-a-time sequential access. 01:22:12 and the CPU isn't even throttled 01:22:16 int-e: "grossen", surely? (großen?) 01:22:17 (see: C64) 01:22:23 (see: apple2) 01:22:30 großen 01:22:38 also, why is it impossible to select single words in the GT result :( 01:22:44 oerjan: in your context, yes. 01:22:51 And I said 200,000 instructions per second? 01:22:53 Es brachte ihm großen Schmerz/große Schmerzen 01:23:14 So simply reading the entire tape, and discarding everything you read, would take more than a minute. 01:23:18 myname: no i cobbled it together with wiktionary and memory. 01:23:40 that sounds stupidly complicated 01:23:45 It shouldn't be impossible to select single words; it's not for me. Though the click-to-show-alternatives UI makes it slightly harder than necessary. 01:23:46 oerjan: (note that I changed both "Schmerz" examples to nominative case) 01:24:01 What sounds stupidly complicated? 01:24:37 translating stuff by looking up seoerate words on wiktionary 01:24:41 Also! I had somehow gotten the impression that `thanks was just another silly #esoteric thing, but then QC description used it today. 01:24:43 seperate even 01:24:52 `thanks entropy 01:24:54 Thanks, entropy. Thentropy. 01:25:04 Even with the exact same logic. So I guess it's a Thing. 01:25:04 -!- nooga has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:26:08 I'm gonna be a little bit merciful here. I'm gonna say that the tape has a beginning and an end, and you can always instantly jump to the beginning (but not to the end). 01:27:06 So there's no "I only want to use the first eight bytes of the tape but I'm currently on byte number 8,258,986, so bear with me while I seek to the beginning." 01:27:09 myname: well i was of course trying to do _better_ than GT. with GT's inability to get the inflection of groß right, i'll call it even. 01:27:53 tswett: Press play on tape. 01:28:20 I'm also gonna say that you can do a "start seek" operation and then do other stuff while you're waiting. 01:28:44 fizzie: crap, I might be too young to get that reference. 01:29:07 no wait, "viel". with "groß" it chose the plural, which was correct but breaks the rhyme. 01:29:41 (on the other hand, "ein" is wrong.) 01:30:07 . o O ( "Heinrich, der Wagen bricht!" -- "Nein, Herr, der Wagen nicht, es ist ein Band von meinem Herzen, das da lag in großen Schmerzen, als Ihr in dem Brunnen saßt, als Ihr eine Fretsche wast." ) 01:30:27 why are german plurals so complex 01:31:16 fizzie: `thanks is inspired by Look Around You 01:31:50 specifically, `thanks ants 01:31:53 `thanks ants 01:31:53 Thanks, ants. Thants. 01:32:04 `ls bin/ble* 01:32:05 ls: cannot access bin/ble*: No such file or directory 01:32:06 `thanks oerjan 01:32:06 Thanks, oerjan. Thoerjan. 01:32:13 (It was hard to Google for.) 01:32:37 Also I should've known that, I've seen that bit. 01:32:58 fizzie: all my attempts at clicking to select single words select the whole thing immediately. 01:34:22 Weird. Dragging works for me. 01:36:47 down with plurals! 01:36:58 `thanks whistle 01:36:59 Thanks, whistle. Thistle. 01:37:16 `thanks thanks 01:37:16 Thanks, thanks. Thanks. 01:38:10 `thanks Hanks 01:38:11 Thanks, Hanks. Thanks. 01:38:19 `thanks NO2 01:38:19 Thanks, NO2. ThO2. 01:38:31 Thorium dioxide. 01:39:02 “Thorium dioxide is used as a stabilizer in tungsten electrodes in TIG welding, electron tubes, and aircraft engines.” ← nice. 01:40:17 `thanks bat 01:40:19 Thanks, bat. That. 01:40:25 That bat. 01:41:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:41:22 `thanks bcdfghjkl 01:41:22 Thanks, bcdfghjkl. Tcdfghjkl. 01:41:35 no. I'm not recording myself saying that. 01:42:57 int-e: so basically, no one is sure what "Fretsche" means, right? 01:43:11 oerjan: it's a frog 01:43:26 `thanks schmaltz 01:43:26 Thanks, schmaltz. Thaltz. 01:43:43 `thanks bcdfghjklmno 01:43:44 Thanks, bcdfghjklmno. Tho. 01:43:59 `thanks Mgrvgrvladje 01:44:00 Thanks, Mgrvgrvladje. Thadje. 01:44:03 oerjan: clear from context (it's from the frog prince story) 01:44:25 the Grimm version, to be more precise 01:45:00 int-e: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Froschk%C3%B6nig_oder_der_eiserne_Heinrich#Bedeutung_des_Wortes_.E2.80.9EFretsche.E2.80.9C 01:45:22 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:45:41 * boily georgianically thwacks oerjan ”NO! I HATE THAT WORD! AAAAAAAARGH!” 01:46:14 `thanks chicken 01:46:16 Thanks, chicken. Thicken. 01:46:25 `thanks fizzie 01:46:26 Thanks, fizzie. Thizzie. 01:46:33 `thanks mink 01:46:33 Thanks, mink. Think. 01:46:46 always thanks your inner chicken. it does spiritual good. 01:47:10 -!- int-e has left ("HERETIC CHICKEN"). 01:47:10 -!- int-e has joined. 01:48:13 oerjan: thanks for the link... so yeah apparently people must make things complicated ;) 01:48:25 Darn, the rules given at Wikipedia for English phonotactics don't allow arbitrarily long onsets. 01:48:56 So I can't have a word like "spspspsplot". 01:49:13 shshshshshocking 01:49:20 is it possible to have more than s+consonant+y/w/l/r in english? 01:49:25 in the onset 01:49:39 I don't think so. 01:49:49 or sh+consonant+y/w/l/r if you admit yiddish loans 01:50:00 loans shmoans 01:50:16 Oh yeah, I heard the word "shprig" (schprig?) on TV once. 01:50:19 Lemme see if the rules allow arbitrarily long codas. 01:51:21 `? k 01:51:25 K K K Ken 01:52:16 Yup. The rules don't prohibit "eefsfsfsfs". 01:52:20 * int-e tsks ;-) 01:52:28 Nor "twelfths". 01:52:38 Though people tend to pronounce that as "twelfs". 01:52:45 "thwart" is another nice one 01:53:02 "strengths" :D 01:53:34 And as for "sixths"... 01:53:50 wtf is "sphragistic" 01:53:54 `thanks chump 01:53:55 Thanks, chump. Thump. 01:55:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ALREADY CHICKEN). 02:00:39 why did the chicken kill the channel 02:02:12 it got between the chicken and the road 02:09:34 -!- lynn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:12:40 -!- lambda-11235 has joined. 02:14:17 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 02:18:59 -!- lambda-11235 has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 02:19:45 <\oren\> apparently other people don't pronounce xylophone with a 'ks' in the onsey 02:19:52 <\oren\> *onset 02:20:30 Yeah, "x" at the beginning of a word is usually /z/. 02:20:35 * deltab nods 02:20:38 Which is weird. 02:20:56 Most languages are weird. 02:21:01 Yup. 02:21:02 <\oren\> but my english previously contained a lot worse spelling-pronounciations 02:21:11 (be they spoken or programmed) 02:21:15 Let's see, is Spanish weird? 02:21:22 It has two different copulas. That's weird. 02:21:22 <\oren\> due to learning to read before I could talk 02:21:58 spanish is within the european norm in weirdness 02:22:05 <\oren\> psychic with a p, for example, which I kept doing till I was in university 02:22:32 maybe spanish is a little bit less weird than the european norm 02:22:35 due to lack of case 02:22:49 and nominal declensions being relatively sane 02:22:50 How many modern Romance languages do have case? 02:23:10 romanian sorta has case-ish 02:23:11 <\oren\> french has remnants iirc 02:23:20 \oren\ : like what? 02:25:52 <\oren\> yah the pronouns 02:26:14 eh 02:26:29 the pronouns are essentially bound clitics to the verb 02:26:34 lots of languages have remnants in the pronouns, including english. 02:26:43