←2016-03-31 2016-04-01 2016-04-02→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:04 <rdococ> I tried making a Sonic game in it but it was too slow
00:00:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: A JS-ic interpreter for BASIC?
00:00:16 <rdococ> idk how it worked
00:00:18 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: They're "markov sequences" all right, though it's not quite the most common implementation, where you have a bunch of text and then jump around; instead, it's just generating word by word from a variable-length n-gram model trained with https://github.com/vsiivola/variKN and stored in a I-think-it's-nifty-but-for-some-reason-haven't-much-seen-it-around data structure that I call ...
00:00:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I've been working to make a browser
00:00:22 <rdococ> but it was called Quite Basic
00:00:24 <fizzie> ... a reverse-context tree for lack of a better name.
00:00:26 <fizzie> It's like a word trie except so that if your model has, say, information about the contexts "baz bar foo", "quux bar foo" and "zuul foo", the trie has the form (foo (bar (baz [..]) (quux [..])) (zuul [...])).
00:00:29 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: this is of course inspired by "halt and catch fire", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halt_and_Catch_Fire
00:00:30 <fizzie> The idea being that it's easy to synthesize from -- you just descend the tree while reading backwards from the end of the text you've generated so far, and once you no longer find a leaf for the "next" (previous) word, you've arrived at the longest prefix in the variKN model, and can read its list of frequencies for following words.
00:00:35 <fizzie> (For extra credit, also account for backoff weights by having a probability for going back up one level.)
00:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Ah, yes
00:01:39 <rdococ> If I had to choose a few esoteric assembly instructions, they would be, um
00:01:48 <fizzie> For some reason most things dealing with n-gram models I've seen have tended to put things in a trie, yes, but the "right way around". Which I guess is just fine for a fixed-length model, but much less convenient for a variable-length one.
00:01:53 <rdococ> idk
00:02:10 <rdococ> I'm in the mood to talk about numbers right now
00:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Have you heard of the number @?
00:02:32 <rdococ> the number what?
00:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The number @
00:02:44 <rdococ> nope
00:02:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: |@|=-1
00:02:49 <rdococ> ...
00:02:51 <rdococ> interesting
00:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> |n@|=-n
00:02:56 <rdococ> wow
00:03:13 <fizzie> And I had a lot of fun writing the Funge code. It's a language that's generally much easier to write than read.
00:03:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:03:41 <rdococ> hmm
00:03:43 <rdococ> imagine
00:03:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Go on
00:03:57 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Something that randomly chooses a register, and start executing the instruction at the specified address. An instruction that moves memory from a specified location to a random location somewhere else. An instruction that reads the specified memory address, and multiplies it by a random prime number. Other useless things.
00:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> # = -i@
00:04:01 <rdococ> @ * @?
00:04:11 <rdococ> @ * @ = 1?
00:04:14 <rdococ> or different
00:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Undefined, as of yet
00:04:22 <rdococ> hmm
00:04:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, but j^2 = 1
00:04:25 <hppavilion[1]> But j != 1
00:04:30 <rdococ> crazy
00:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> And k^2 = 0
00:04:35 <hppavilion[1]> But k != 0
00:04:42 <zgrep> |@*@| = 1?
00:04:43 <hppavilion[1]> That's the 2D real algebras
00:04:44 <rdococ> we can take any condition and turn it into a number...
00:04:47 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Probably not
00:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ask Sgeo__
00:04:59 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Why not?
00:05:10 <rdococ> sqrt(@)?
00:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because @ isn't based on squaring, it's based on absing
00:05:18 <rdococ> |-@|?
00:05:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: 1
00:05:32 <rdococ> crazy
00:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: |-@|=1
00:05:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Not that crazy; I already said |n@| = -n
00:05:46 <rdococ> 3@ / 2@ = ???
00:05:49 <rdococ> 3/2?
00:05:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, definitely
00:05:57 <rdococ> true
00:05:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Sgeo__ invented @
00:06:05 <rdococ> now I want to invent one
00:06:09 <shachaf> `? @
00:06:19 <HackEgo> ​@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
00:06:19 <shachaf> p. sure it wasn't Sgeo__ who invented @
00:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Just don't make it absy, make it something new
00:06:21 <rdococ> $
00:06:28 <rdococ> $ * 2 = 0.5
00:06:32 <rdococ> $ * x = 1/x
00:06:34 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|@| = -1
00:06:43 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
00:06:45 <rdococ> but that means $ = 1...
00:06:48 <rdococ> huh
00:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's actually... hm...
00:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I don't see how that behaves like numbers
00:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It has to behave reasonably like a number, but not quite, or else it's no fun
00:07:27 <rdococ> x$ = x/$ but $ =/= 1
00:07:37 <rdococ> true
00:07:44 <rdococ> what other numbers...
00:07:50 <rdococ> I mean functions
00:07:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: @ is numeric, as are i, j, and k
00:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can do the reverse of @'s creation process to
00:08:04 <hppavilion[1]> o
00:08:05 * zgrep still doesn't see why |
00:08:06 <rdococ> |$| = i
00:08:09 * zgrep still doesn't see why |-@| = 1... :(
00:08:14 <rdococ> nah
00:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: $=-i@
00:08:20 <rdococ> hmm
00:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because |n*@| = -n, -@ = -1*a, and -(-1) = 1
00:08:52 <zgrep> Oh, wow. Heh.
00:08:59 <rdococ> hmmm
00:09:07 <rdococ> $ = cube root (-1)
00:09:10 <rdococ> nah
00:09:17 <rdococ> $ = fourth root (-1)
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00:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's a normal complex number
00:09:35 <rdococ> hmm
00:09:48 <boily> explore quaternions.
00:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: @ was made by taking an unsatisfiable expression and making a new number that satisfies it. The reverse is taking an expression with no solution and making a solution
00:10:02 <zgrep> |@*@| = -@?
00:10:06 <rdococ> should I do the inverse/
00:10:08 <rdococ> ?*
00:10:08 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: η is the "Notta Constant"
00:10:16 <rdococ> or the one you did?
00:10:22 <rdococ> what's the notta constant?
00:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: No, unless you have a reason
00:10:38 <rdococ> hmm
00:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: xη = x/0
00:10:51 <rdococ> so basically infinity
00:10:59 <rdococ> hmm
00:11:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No, not infinity
00:11:03 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n*@| = -n, so |@*@| = -@... What'd I do wrong? :P
00:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's a new plane
00:11:13 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ah, good point
00:11:14 <rdococ> a new plane? oh yeah
00:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: NOW you're onto something
00:11:22 <hppavilion[1]> :)
00:11:26 <rdococ> hmmm
00:11:45 <rdococ> so I will make up an unsatisfiable expression
00:11:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You can also invent completely baffling things that look like numbers at first, but aren't quite
00:11:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Like the trigns
00:11:54 <rdococ> trigns?
00:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Make sure the expression is fairly simple
00:12:18 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's like the bigns, AKA the reals. I'll leave you to extrapolate.
00:12:34 <rdococ> so it's a third sign?
00:12:43 <rdococ> plus, negative and trign?
00:12:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, or more accurately, 2 new signs that replace -
00:12:53 <rdococ> oh, interesting
00:12:57 <rdococ> what are those signs called?
00:13:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: $ ~ and &
00:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> And they have rules that I forgot
00:13:14 <rdococ> hmm
00:13:15 <rdococ> okay
00:13:22 <rdococ> interesting
00:13:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n|^2 ≠ |n^2|, right?
00:13:45 <rdococ> 0^x = 1
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00:13:55 <rdococ> my new number would be %, and 0^% = 1
00:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Here's one for you. 0/nρ = n
00:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oh, that works too
00:14:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Look into that
00:14:05 <zgrep> rdococ: Isn't that 0?
00:14:09 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: What's the general case
00:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: No, that's undefined
00:14:17 <rdococ> hppa: isn't that another infinity?
00:14:23 <rdococ> the p thing
00:14:28 <rdococ> wait
00:14:39 <rdococ> hmm
00:14:41 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, heh. Good point.
00:14:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Though I have a nagging feeling that it's related to η
00:14:57 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yep.
00:15:01 <rdococ> 0^% = 1, so
00:15:09 <rdococ> x^y% = ??
00:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: And |n|^2 usually is equal to |n^2|
00:15:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Obviously, 0^%n = n
00:15:39 <rdococ> okay
00:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You should probably give it a less mathematical name
00:15:46 <hppavilion[1]> Like "r"
00:15:50 <rdococ> lol r
00:15:56 <hppavilion[1]> Because @ works, but % is too mathy already
00:16:00 <rdococ> 0^rx = ??
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00:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x
00:16:08 <rdococ> I was originally going for $ but way too mathy
00:16:10 <zgrep> |-n@| = -|n@|
00:16:16 <rdococ> I'll use r
00:16:27 <rdococ> x^ry = ?
00:16:29 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I believe so. Let me chack the algebra
00:16:50 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: |n^2| ≠ |n|^2 if you've got an @ somewhere in there.
00:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The simplest solution is x^ry = y(x+1) = xy+y, but that's a bit strange
00:17:27 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: excellent
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00:17:44 <rdococ> how'd you get that solution?
00:17:50 <rdococ> oh
00:17:52 <rdococ> I get it
00:18:01 <zgrep> |@^2| = |@*@| = -@, but |@|^2 = 1. So |n^2| ≠ |n|^2, right?
00:18:10 <rdococ> you moved the y down like I moved the x down when I was doing 0^rx
00:18:27 <rdococ> it's interesting though
00:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's not very good (too functional, not numbery enough), but it's the best I can think of
00:18:56 <rdococ> hmm
00:19:00 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Apparently, yes! Good job!
00:19:01 <rdococ> let's think of a different simpler one then
00:19:04 <rdococ> what about
00:20:31 <zgrep> In fact, |ab| ≠ |a|*|b| when @'s involved.
00:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x : x≠x
00:20:48 <rdococ> weird idea
00:20:59 <rdococ> does x<x-1 then?
00:21:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Maybe, who knows?
00:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I guess we shouldn't use ≠, we should use !<=
00:21:37 <rdococ> ԑ
00:21:45 <rdococ> ԑ =/= ԑ
00:21:47 <rdococ> nah
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00:21:50 <rdococ> looks like an infinitesimal
00:21:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x : x≰x
00:22:02 <rdococ> so x>x?
00:22:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Precisely
00:22:15 <hppavilion[1]> Order-theoretical i
00:22:16 <rdococ> let's call it ᴓ
00:22:20 <rdococ> ᴓ>ᴓ
00:22:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: neoletters doesn't include that symbol
00:22:29 <rdococ> neoletters?
00:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ᴓ
00:22:38 <HackEgo> ​[U+1D13 LATIN SMALL LETTER SIDEWAYS O WITH STROKE]
00:22:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Oh! My last name has that letter!
00:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> Kind of!
00:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Wait, it's a sideways version
00:23:12 <rdococ> but flipped horizontally
00:23:40 <rdococ> does ξ show up?
00:23:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
00:23:54 <rdococ> so ξ > ξ
00:24:07 <rdococ> xξ > xξ?
00:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Obviously
00:24:26 <rdococ> what about xξ and yξ for different x and y?
00:25:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How does that normally work again?
00:25:17 <rdococ> well, 3 > 2 and 2 < 3, and 3 = 3
00:25:29 <rdococ> does ξ = ξ + x for any particular x?
00:26:08 <rdococ> ξ > ξ, and 3ξ = 4ξ?
00:26:13 <rdococ> or 3ξ > 4ξ?
00:26:46 <zgrep> What is ξ, in this case?
00:26:55 <rdococ> ξ > ξ
00:27:05 <zgrep> Ahah. So then ξ < ξ as well.
00:27:19 <rdococ> nope, that rule was broken
00:27:24 <zgrep> How?
00:27:29 <rdococ> hppa's idea
00:27:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Don't blame me!
00:27:58 <rdococ> so does x < ξ for any x?
00:28:13 <zgrep> But if ξ > ξ... why isn't ξ < ξ?
00:28:21 <rdococ> ask hppa
00:28:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: This is me asking you.
00:28:27 <rdococ> my original idea was just ξ =/= ξ
00:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I think that was /my/ idea
00:29:09 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: rdococ: x : x≰x
00:29:13 <hppavilion[1]> <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: x : x≠x
00:29:14 <rdococ> really now
00:29:24 <hppavilion[1]> Need I break out the logs?
00:29:28 <rdococ> oh
00:29:37 <rdococ> but ξ > ξwas also yours
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00:31:06 <zgrep> |@*@*@| = -@*@... ||@*@*@|| = @, then?
00:31:23 <zgrep> Where that's [[@*@*@]] not, []@*@*@[]. :P
00:31:51 <boily> @@
00:32:01 <boily> @something
00:32:01 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
00:32:08 <boily> @1
00:32:08 <lambdabot> Say again?
00:32:11 <boily> @2
00:32:11 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:32:14 <boily> @@
00:32:22 <zgrep> @poke lambdabot
00:32:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: vote more
00:32:28 <zgrep> No, I don't want to vote more.
00:32:29 <boily> @botsnack
00:32:29 <lambdabot> :)
00:33:35 <zgrep> @|@| = -@... and |@*@| = -@... uh... :/
00:33:36 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: Unknown command: "..."
00:34:19 <rdococ> Ω > n for any finite n, but Ω < infinity? so Ω is the largest finite number
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00:34:43 <boily> @(
00:34:44 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:46 <boily> @)
00:34:46 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:51 <boily> @[
00:34:51 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:54 <boily> @{
00:34:54 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:34:56 <boily> @`
00:34:56 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
00:35:00 <zgrep> So what's ∞ - Ω?
00:35:04 <rdococ> 1
00:35:11 <zgrep> Ω = ∞ - 1?
00:35:14 <rdococ> yes
00:35:15 <boily> so the lambdie answers to most about anything, except @. very peculiar.
00:35:28 <rdococ> v
00:35:36 <zgrep> boily: I'm assuming that @'s the prefix, whatever comes after that's considered the command. But just @ is ignored.
00:36:00 <rdococ> @
00:36:06 <zgrep> >
00:36:09 <zgrep> >
00:36:10 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: ‘’
00:36:11 <zgrep> @
00:36:21 <zgrep> Huh. "@ " doesn't trigger, but "> " does.
00:36:48 <rdococ> or what about
00:36:52 <rdococ> xΩ = 1/x
00:37:03 <boily> @@@
00:37:10 <boily> @@@@something
00:37:25 <zgrep> rdococ: Becomes weird, because then Ω = x^-2
00:37:27 <zgrep> :P
00:37:42 <zgrep> Though I guess it wouldn't be number, just an operation.
00:37:51 <rdococ> what about
00:37:52 <rdococ> four signs
00:38:05 * zgrep has no clue what zgrep is talking about...
00:38:07 <rdococ> +3 plus x2 = +6
00:38:35 <rdococ> +x + *y = x*y
00:39:08 <rdococ> and x + /y = x/y
00:39:39 <zgrep> This look simple: -0 [something] n = 0 [something] (-1 * n).
00:39:49 <zgrep> And useless.
00:39:57 <zgrep> rdococ: I... don't exactly get what that is...
00:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But then Ω > Ω
00:40:33 <rdococ> hppa: I was discussing another idea for a number
00:40:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I know
00:41:44 <rdococ> what about
00:41:45 <rdococ> Ʊ
00:42:47 <rdococ> um
00:43:09 <zgrep> How how did you get an upside-down omega. o.o
00:43:18 <rdococ> `unidecode Ʊ
00:43:21 <HackEgo> ​[U+01B1 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER UPSILON]
00:43:27 <zgrep> upsilon. Neat! :D
00:43:59 <rdococ> what about Ψ
00:45:01 <zgrep> Technically, 🐈 could work as a great name too. It would also help annoy others who want to type about it. :P
00:45:04 <rdococ> xΨ + y(1-Ψ) = random probability of being either x or y
00:45:14 <rdococ> what symbol is that? it doesn't showu p on mine
00:45:20 <zgrep> It's a unicode cat.
00:45:46 <rdococ> wow
00:46:03 <rdococ> Ψ = random probability of being either 0 or 1
00:46:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ψ: Doing any math involving Ψ comes at the expense of your sanity
00:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> Example problem:
00:46:19 <hppavilion[1]> x = Ψ+1
00:46:19 <rdococ> because it is random and unpredictable
00:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> x-1 = Ψ
00:46:29 <rdococ> Ψ+1 = random probability of being either 1 or 2
00:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> (algebra)
00:46:38 <hppavilion[1]> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
00:46:42 <hppavilion[1]> (def. of Ψ)
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00:47:06 <rdococ> doing any math with x comes at the expense of your sanity...
00:47:16 <rdococ> does that mean I have no sanity?
00:47:18 <zgrep> s/with x.*your //
00:47:31 <zgrep> Oh, wait, I cut out too many words. Damn it.
00:47:37 <zgrep> s/with x //
00:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Try ms/
00:47:38 <zgrep> There.
00:47:41 <rdococ> lol
00:47:51 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: ms/// is for fixing s/// expressions
00:48:21 <rdococ> ms/s/with x.*your///s/with x//
00:48:31 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Really? I usually either ignore the first regex I made, fix the resulting string as if the regexes were applied in a row, or I write a regex to fix the regex as a regular regex.
00:49:01 <rdococ> so Ψ = 0, no wait it's 1, 0, 1, 0 wait what is it
00:49:04 <zgrep> A regular regex expression! :P
00:49:05 <coppro> zgrep: new processors for an architecture may support additional features that their predecessors did not in a backwards-incompatible way, but when people make new architectures like ARM, they aren't backwards-compatile with other architectures
00:49:25 <zgrep> coppro: True.
00:49:35 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yes, that's ms
00:49:39 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: That last one
00:49:56 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: It doesn't end up calling our evil Microsoft overlords?
00:49:57 <boily> are there irregular expressions?
00:50:06 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Nope
00:50:11 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yes hth
00:50:14 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Oh, okay. Good.
00:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> boily: alksfdjaoisdf matches "walrus", but not "oerjan"
00:50:39 <zgrep> It does match "oerjans", though.
00:50:53 <zgrep> But not organs.
00:50:57 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Correct, but not "oerjan's"
00:51:19 <zgrep> Though alksfdjaoisde would match all of the above.
00:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Maybe we should work on that hacking game
00:52:16 <rdococ> do we have to
00:52:17 <fizzie> You can say "it's not rocket surgery" as an amusing combination of the two idioms, but saying "it's not brain science" works much less well.
00:52:40 <boily> @ask oerjan do you feel matched?
00:52:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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00:54:16 <rdococ> what about
00:54:17 <rdococ> x
00:54:29 <rdococ> χ
00:54:43 <zgrep> fizzie: Between a rock and a pickle? :P
00:55:03 <rdococ> 3χ / (χ/2) = 6
00:55:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, we have to :P
00:55:29 <zgrep> rdococ: Err... yes.
00:56:00 <rdococ> sure, all numbers satisfy that property, but
00:56:04 <rdococ> χ is a wildcard
00:56:12 <rdococ> χ is algebra without algebra
00:56:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How is it a wildcard?
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00:56:59 <rdococ> hppa: it is meant for substitution
00:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Is it a number that satisfies all properties the reals satisfy (and no others), but that isn't a real?
00:57:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So it's just a variable?
00:57:13 <rdococ> not exactly
00:57:14 <zgrep> rdococ: You're trying to turn math into C macros? D:
00:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: These numbers are boring me.
00:57:25 <rdococ> ugh
00:57:25 <rdococ> fine
00:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> H4X1N470R-MP
00:58:03 <rdococ> Θx = sin(x)
00:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's a function again
00:58:49 <rdococ> hmm
00:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: There's a difference between weird numbers and weird function call syntax
00:59:12 <rdococ> 0^0 = μ
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01:00:51 <rdococ> what about that
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01:02:32 <rdococ> should I just google a random function, find a spot where the function doesn't havw a value, and make a spot there?
01:04:19 <rdococ> what about
01:04:29 <rdococ> Ϝ + 1 = Ϝ
01:04:41 <zgrep>
01:04:52 <rdococ> Ϝ < n for all n
01:05:03 <zgrep> -∞
01:05:19 <rdococ> uh
01:05:24 <zgrep> (although not completely, but almost)
01:05:51 <zgrep> I wonder if it's possible to somehow teach mathematica what @ is...
01:05:54 <zgrep> s/mathe/Mathe/
01:06:04 <rdococ> try it
01:06:07 <rdococ> |@| = -1
01:06:14 <rdococ> what about
01:06:52 <rdococ> β = x for any x
01:06:53 <zgrep> Expression cannot begin with "Abs[@]=-1". :P
01:07:16 <rdococ> try a different symbol like x
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01:08:08 <zgrep> I'm wondering, how would I begin to figure out what |@+k| would be...
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01:08:40 <rdococ> well, if |x@| = -x@
01:08:49 <rdococ> then |@+k| = -@ - k
01:09:01 <zgrep> Why?
01:09:06 <rdococ> no wait
01:09:28 <rdococ> |@+k| = |@| + |k| = -@ + |k|
01:09:37 <zgrep> |a| + |b| ≠ |a + b|
01:10:23 <myname> why is |@| = -@, i thought it'd be -1
01:10:35 <rdococ> oh yeah
01:10:36 <zgrep> |@| = -1 indeed.
01:10:38 <rdococ> |@| = -1
01:10:40 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
01:10:43 <HackEgo> ​|@| = -1
01:10:48 <rdococ> |k@| = -k
01:11:05 <rdococ> |@+k| = -@ + k?
01:11:22 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n
01:11:26 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
01:11:46 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:11:55 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random
01:12:00 <rdococ> what is |-@|? is it |-1@| = 1?
01:12:03 <zgrep> Eh, I guess that's no longer there.
01:12:04 <rdococ> yeah
01:12:12 <zgrep> |-@| = 1
01:12:16 <HackEgo> 8901
01:12:17 <HackEgo> I must confess, I know not of what you are speaking.
01:12:27 <zgrep> Oh, it worked, just slowly.
01:12:34 <zgrep> `tomfoolery random number
01:12:36 <HackEgo> 6903
01:12:39 <zgrep> :D
01:12:52 <myname> so, what is |@+k|?
01:13:19 <rdococ> I would assume the k part gets absed
01:13:40 <rdococ> if I had my way, |-@| = -1
01:13:50 <rdococ> wait no
01:13:54 <rdococ> then @ = -1
01:13:56 <rdococ> no
01:14:03 <rdococ> not that
01:14:28 <rdococ> Ψ is far more interesting
01:14:37 <rdococ> `tomfoolery random number
01:14:40 <HackEgo> 17204
01:14:50 <rdococ> that's Ψ*100000
01:15:09 <rdococ> no wait
01:15:09 <zgrep> `cat tmflry/random number
01:15:10 <rdococ> it's not
01:15:11 <HackEgo> echo $RANDOM
01:15:33 <rdococ> uh
01:15:34 <rdococ> ugh
01:16:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm back
01:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: |@+k|? = 19
01:16:39 <rdococ> uh?
01:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> s/19/42/
01:16:48 <rdococ> 42
01:16:50 <myname> that would make @ pretty pointless
01:17:00 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Heheh.
01:17:14 <zgrep> Err... how did you mistype 42 as 19?
01:17:16 <rdococ> it already is useless
01:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, it makes ? pretty pointless
01:17:19 <rdococ> sorta
01:17:20 <rdococ> idk
01:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> n? = 42
01:17:26 <zgrep> :D
01:17:30 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: I changed my mind
01:17:36 <zgrep> "The answer to life, the universe, and everything"? = 42 :P
01:17:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Exactly
01:17:57 <hppavilion[1]> (?) :: a -> Int
01:18:35 <myname> that's const
01:18:43 <zgrep> (?) (+5) (-5) = 42?
01:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: When you said "Ψ is far more interesting", what does Ψ equal?
01:18:55 <rdococ> I did?
01:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's an example of a const
01:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: you did
01:19:22 <rdococ> Ψ = a superposition of 0 and 1
01:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: A superposition? Are you sure it isn't just 0 or 1 at random?
01:19:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OOH! OOH! QUANTUM MATH!
01:19:47 <rdococ> okay it's 0 or 1 at random
01:19:52 <rdococ> or superposition
01:19:59 <rdococ> Ψ = 0 or 1
01:20:00 <zgrep> |@|*|@| = 1... |@*@| = -@. <-- Why does this have to ruin everything. :(
01:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: math : Computer math :: Quantum math : Quantum computer math
01:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: It doesn't, it just breaks one property
01:20:22 <rdococ> omg
01:20:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: :)
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01:20:34 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: But it ruins ease of use. :P
01:20:43 <rdococ> zgrep: you made mathematica learn @?!!!
01:20:44 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Welcome to #esoteric
01:20:49 <myname> zgrep: because @ is atupid
01:20:55 <zgrep> I feel welcome here.
01:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname is going to hell
01:21:02 <zgrep> myname: It's not tupid? Okay.
01:21:11 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: You are, but myname isn't any more
01:21:14 <rdococ> no, it's atupid
01:21:19 <myname> it breaks even Z
01:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Making it not tupid
01:21:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: a- is a prefix for "not"
01:21:40 <rdococ> hppa: it is xtupid for any x
01:21:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Type my full nick, please
01:22:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I don't get alerted if you don't
01:22:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Use tab-complete
01:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How does it break Z?
01:22:31 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: k
01:22:32 <myname> see zgrep's example
01:22:57 <myname> the existence of @ would make 1 = -1
01:23:18 <zgrep> "hppa" makes me want to pronounce it "хпавилион". :P
01:23:18 <rdococ> really?
01:23:24 <myname> which makes 2 equal to either 2, -2 or 0
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01:23:40 <rdococ> x = -x and x =/= 0
01:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: β looked good
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01:24:43 <rdococ> remind me what it was
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01:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Nevermind, β is stupid
01:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> a=β, b=β, a!=b
01:25:43 <myname> hppavilion[1]: but 1 = -1 is fine?
01:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Where is 1 = -1?
01:25:59 <zgrep> myname: I'm assuming that they consider |a|*|b| ≠ |a*b| to be fine.
01:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh
01:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Actually, that is true, I think
01:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> Let me check
01:26:44 <myname> zgrep: it will most likely brealk at |@+k| nontheless
01:26:47 <zgrep> Well, for all reals, |a|*|b| = |a*b|, I think.
01:26:58 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Not for the complexes though
01:26:59 <zgrep> myname: Well, if k = @, then |@+@| = -2 :P
01:27:11 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Probably something like that.
01:27:20 <hppavilion[1]> |i| = 1, |1| = 1, |1+i| = sqrt(2) but |1|+|i|=2
01:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, shit
01:27:26 <hppavilion[1]> You were doing *
01:27:36 <zgrep> |i| = 1?
01:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Yeah. You didn't know that?
01:27:47 <zgrep> I do now. :D
01:27:52 <hppavilion[1]> ||@|| = 1
01:28:10 <myname> that depends on what norm you are using
01:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> Usually, |x| = ||x||, but not when dealing with sgeoids
01:28:21 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Wait, but why is |i| = 1?
01:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What norm?
01:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Because the distance between i and 0 is 1.
01:28:39 <zgrep> Good point! :D
01:28:43 <myname> |i| could also be i
01:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> |a+bi| = sqrt(a^2+b^2)
01:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Since when?
01:29:01 <zgrep> @ introduces negative distances... does that simply mean going backwards in time? :P
01:29:05 <myname> because the dostance between i and 0 is i
01:29:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, it's 1
01:29:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's clearly 1
01:29:29 <rdococ> what about a number j which relates to hyperbolic trig?
01:29:45 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that depends
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01:30:24 <myname> |a + bi| = |a| + |b| is as valid as |a + bi| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2)
01:30:34 <myname> both of them are well defined
01:31:35 <rdococ> no, the complex plane is like an x/y plane - the distance from i to 0 is 1
01:31:59 <rdococ> and from 1+i to 0 is sqrt(2)
01:32:36 <myname> as long as it follows some rules, anything is fine really
01:32:58 <rdococ> but those are the rules of the complex system
01:33:18 <myname> like, |x| = 0 => x = 0
01:33:40 <myname> |a| + |b| >= |a+b|
01:34:18 <rdococ> but I have the idea of a hyperbolic complex plane where e^jx = sin(x) + icosh(x)
01:34:31 <rdococ> sinh*
01:34:39 <rdococ> j*
01:34:45 <rdococ> jcosh*
01:39:06 <zgrep> -|@| = |i|. Huh.
01:39:34 <rdococ> |i| = 1
01:39:40 <rdococ> |@| = -1
01:39:47 <rdococ> -|@| = 1
01:39:48 <myname> that's what he said
01:40:24 <rdococ> |3| = |3|
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01:41:14 <zgrep> |k@| ≠ |k||@|... argh! If only this weren't true, then things with @ would be much easier to think about.
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01:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: |k@| = k|@|
01:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> But that's not very good
01:42:15 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: True...
01:42:17 <myname> that would break math for k = @
01:42:27 <zgrep> Would it?
01:42:33 <zgrep> I don't see it breaking math for k = @...
01:42:34 <myname> you posted it
01:42:42 <zgrep> Well, what I wrote, yes. Not what hppavilion[1] wrote.
01:43:02 <myname> so |@@| is -@?
01:43:27 <zgrep> Yeap.
01:43:32 <myname> and |-3@| would be 3?
01:43:35 <zgrep> Yeppers.
01:43:41 <zgrep> Because |n@| = -n
01:43:44 <rdococ> omg that actually make sense
01:44:14 <rdococ> |n@| = -(|n|@/@)
01:44:27 <rdococ> @.@
01:44:27 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: @ .
01:44:33 <rdococ> @_@
01:45:11 <myname> what about |@+k|
01:46:00 <zgrep> rdococ: Wat?
01:46:04 <zgrep> myname: Exactly. :/
01:47:56 <myname> asume k = @, that would make |@+k| = -2
01:48:16 <rdococ> |@+k| = -k/@ + -1?
01:48:20 <myname> k = -@ would make it 0
01:48:51 <rdococ> |k/@|
01:49:04 <rdococ> what about 1/@
01:49:26 <myname> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:50:24 <myname> k = -n@ -> |@+k| = -n+1
01:51:50 <rdococ> k = n -> |@+k| = -1 - ((n/@)+1)...?
01:52:46 <rdococ> n = @ -> |@+n| = -1 - ((n/@)+1) -> -3...?
01:53:32 <rdococ> k = n@ -> |@+k| = -(n+1)
01:53:33 <myname> k = -(n+2)k -> |@+k| = -(n+2)+1 = -(n+1)
01:53:37 <rdococ> now plug in n = 1/@
01:54:03 <myname> so |@ + k| = |@ - k + 2|
01:54:09 <rdococ> k = (1/@)@ -> |@+k| = -((1/@)+1)
01:55:12 <rdococ> |@+x| = -1/@ - 1
01:55:32 <rdococ> |@+x| = -x/@ - 1
01:55:54 <rdococ> nowait
01:56:17 <zgrep> k = @; |@+k| = -2
01:57:22 <\oren\> The enigma machine had a keyboard that was qwertzuio asdfghjk pyxcvbnml
01:58:56 <rdococ> |x@| = -x
01:59:19 <rdococ> now say x = (@+x)/@
01:59:28 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
01:59:36 <rdococ> y*
01:59:52 <myname> rdococ: sounds wrong
02:00:01 <rdococ> |x@| = -x
02:00:13 <rdococ> now say x = 1 + y/@
02:00:20 <myname> how should (a+b)/b = a?
02:00:32 <myname> that would make a + b = a * b
02:01:09 <zgrep> \oren\: Intriguing.
02:01:09 <rdococ> a = (b+c)/b?
02:01:19 <rdococ> I meant y there
02:01:47 <myname> so a = 1 + c/b?
02:02:02 <rdococ> yes
02:02:36 <myname> what are you trying to do
02:02:47 <zgrep> Oh, that's interesting.
02:03:13 <zgrep> |n@|=-n; n=(@+x)/@; |@+x| = -(@+x)/@... huh.
02:04:04 <myname> i don't quite get where these division rules came from
02:04:24 <zgrep> Are you saying I'm assuming @/@ = 1?
02:04:54 <myname> i don't get what made you assume n = (@+x)/@
02:05:51 <zgrep> Who cares, it works?
02:06:04 <myname> how so
02:06:06 <zgrep> And it was rdococ that made me assume. :P
02:06:14 <zgrep> It figures out what |@+k| is.
02:06:25 <myname> solve for k = @
02:06:29 <rdococ> So we want to know |@ + x|.
02:06:35 <zgrep> Hm. Let's try.
02:06:38 <rdococ> Let's divide both sides by @. |(1 + x/@)@|
02:06:39 <myname> ah
02:06:45 <rdococ> Apply the rule. -(1 + x/@)
02:06:57 <rdococ> Simplify. -1 - x/@ Assuming my knowledge of parentheses are correct.
02:07:00 <zgrep> -1-1 = -2 :D
02:07:15 <zgrep> It works, of coures. :)
02:07:17 <zgrep> s/res/rse/
02:07:22 <rdococ> Yay
02:07:24 <zgrep> Or, wait... does it?
02:07:30 <zgrep> Yeah, probably.
02:07:33 <zgrep> Yep, it works.
02:08:07 <myname> looks reasonable
02:08:24 <myname> i am not sure if that somehow breaks my contradiction above
02:08:28 <rdococ> I've known that a + b = (1 + b/a)a for ages now.
02:08:30 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:08:35 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
02:09:07 <zgrep> myname: Hm, which contradiction?
02:09:11 <rdococ> a + b = (a/a + b/a)a = (1 + b/a)a
02:09:22 <rdococ> I dunno if it applies to @, but I don't see why otherwise.
02:09:43 <myname> |x| = |-x| -> |k + @| = |k - 2 - @| -> @ = -2 - @ -> 2@ = -2 -> @ = -1
02:09:47 <myname> that one
02:09:54 <zgrep> Why does |k + @| = |k - 2 - @|?
02:09:59 <zgrep> Or are we assuming that?
02:10:32 <myname> because |k + @| = |-(k + 2) + @|
02:10:43 <zgrep> Err... why?
02:11:05 <rdococ> |5 + @| = |-7 + @|... nope, does not make sense, unless that's why it's contradictory
02:12:03 <rdococ> |5 + @| = -1 - 5/@, meanwhile |-7 + @| = -1 + 7/@. One's less than -1, and the other's more. That's assuming @ > 0.
02:12:09 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
02:12:10 <HackEgo> ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -(@+k)/@
02:12:12 <myname> because |k + @| = -(n + 1) for k = n@ and |-(k+2) + @| = -(k+2) + 1
02:12:25 <zgrep> k = -n
02:12:26 -!- Lyka has left.
02:12:36 <zgrep> Err, no, I'm wrong, sorry.
02:13:05 <myname> |5@ + @| = |-7@ + @|
02:13:11 <zgrep> So the assumption is that k = n@..., then |k + @| = |n@ + @| = |(n+1)@| = -n-1
02:13:26 <myname> wait, no
02:13:50 <rdococ> so wait, |k + @| = -(k/@ + 1), right? that follows what I got, then |-(k+2)+@| = -(k+2) + 1...wait, what?
02:13:54 <zgrep> 6 ≠ -6 :P
02:14:17 <zgrep> |5@ + @| ≠ |-7@ + @| because |a@| ≠ |a||@|
02:15:04 <myname> but |-n@ + @| = -n + 1
02:15:10 <zgrep> No.
02:15:11 <zgrep> -n - 1
02:15:14 <rdococ> `misle/rn @/|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:17 <zgrep> Err.. wait.
02:15:18 <zgrep> Crap.
02:15:25 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
02:15:28 <rdococ> `tomfoolery @
02:15:29 <HackEgo> ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:15:35 <rdococ> I didn't get your version so I put my own
02:15:45 <zgrep> |-n@ + @| = |(1-n)@| = n-1
02:15:51 <zgrep> ^ myname
02:16:12 <rdococ> makes sense
02:16:17 <myname> indeed
02:16:23 <rdococ> hmm
02:16:24 <zgrep> rdococ: Same thing. :P
02:16:54 <zgrep> (that's with regards to |@+k|)
02:17:44 <myname> interesting
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02:21:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: H444444444444444XXX11111N444444770000000000R
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02:24:57 <hppavilion[1]> ^myname
02:25:09 <zgrep> I think it'd look nicer if rephrased: |@-k| = k/@ - 1 :P
02:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> Are you there fungot? It's me, hppavilion[1]
02:25:15 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: not having guarantees for these things is sensible. thread-terminate! brings nothing but trouble...? or am i screwing something up. b.
02:25:40 <myname> pretty good answer
02:27:13 <zgrep> So what'd |1/@| be...
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02:27:56 <myname> for that we have to know what |@^k| is
02:28:09 <zgrep> Not necessarily.
02:28:36 <myname> well, but we want it nontheless
02:28:43 <zgrep> Inverse isn't exactly the same thing as power, not completely/exactly. As far as I know.
02:29:04 <rdococ> |@*@| = -@
02:29:12 <zgrep> Hm... |@| = -1, |@@| = -@, |@@@| = -@@, etc.
02:29:35 <rdococ> |@^k| = -(@^k-1)
02:29:55 <rdococ> |@^-1| = -(@^-2)
02:29:55 <zgrep> Please put some parens there. :P
02:30:06 <rdococ> -(@^(k-1))
02:30:10 <zgrep> Indeedy. :)
02:31:02 <myname> so, |1/@| is -1/(@@)?
02:31:14 <zgrep> Hm...
02:31:23 <rdococ> |1/0| = -1/(@@)
02:31:28 <rdococ> @*
02:31:28 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
02:31:31 <rdococ> s/0/@
02:32:58 <zgrep> Seems like that's it.
02:35:00 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
02:35:01 <HackEgo> ​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@
02:35:32 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:35:35 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
02:35:57 <rdococ> x^@
02:36:01 <zgrep> Oooh, yes...
02:36:32 <myname> that's a taugh one
02:38:10 <myname> we may ignore it :D
02:38:16 <rdococ> :/
02:38:42 <myname> like, |x^@| could be x^@
02:39:15 <rdococ> |@^@| = -(@^(@-1))
02:39:17 <myname> i don't see how thatwould break anything since that exists für even exponents
02:39:32 <myname> why that
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02:39:56 <myname> |@^@| also is a nice emoticon
02:39:58 <rdococ> |x@^y|
02:41:35 <myname> |x@^y| = x|@^y| = -x@^(y-1)?
02:41:53 <zgrep> Do you mean x(@^y) or (x@)^y?
02:42:10 <rdococ> (x@)^y
02:42:53 <zgrep> (x^y)(@^y)
02:44:02 <zgrep> |@^0| = -(@^(-1))
02:44:48 <zgrep> Technically...
02:45:25 <zgrep> |((k^@)/@)@| = |k^@| = -((k^@)/@)
02:46:28 <zgrep> k^@ = -@|k^@|
02:47:17 <myname> the @^0 is bad
02:47:33 <myname> is there any way tp make it be 1?
02:48:27 <zgrep> |ab@| = a|b@|, right?
02:48:42 <myname> i guess
02:50:06 <zgrep> myname: I guess that |@^0| simply isn't 1...
02:51:05 <zgrep> myname: It works out: |@^1| = -(@^0), so @^0 = -|@^1| = -|@| = 1
02:51:25 <myname> what version?
02:51:33 <zgrep> |@^q| = -(@^(q-1)), q = 1
02:52:16 <myname> ah
02:53:32 <myname> but i donjt like how |@^0| != |1|
02:53:36 <myname> but that is fine
02:53:42 <zgrep> Let's assume that it is...
02:53:43 <zgrep> But 1 = |1|... and -(@^(-1)) = |@^0|... so -1 = @^(-1)...
02:53:49 <myname> |0^0| isn't 1 either
02:54:26 <zgrep> So 1/@ = -1?
02:54:31 <zgrep> That doesn't work, does it?
02:55:15 <zgrep> No, it doesn't.
02:55:22 <zgrep> Because @ ≠ -1, right...
02:55:36 <zgrep> Where did I mess u.
02:55:37 <zgrep> s/u/up/
02:55:49 <myname> @^0 simply isn't 1
02:55:50 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
02:56:12 <zgrep> myname: No, @^0 seems to be 1... just |@^0| doesn't seem to be 1... :(
02:56:23 <zgrep> ...unless @^0 isn't 1, because @^1 ≠ 1...
02:56:24 <myname> fine, too
02:56:37 <zgrep> How's that fine, though... |1| ≠ 1, then?
02:56:55 <myname> right
02:57:05 <myname> so @^0 must not be 1
02:57:31 <zgrep> `tomfoolery
02:57:32 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
02:57:37 <myname> but that may imply @^1 is not @
02:57:42 <HackEgo> I have nothing to tell you.
02:57:42 <HackEgo> ​​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
02:57:59 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^(-2))...
02:59:05 <myname> well, but as you said, |@^1| = -(@^0)
02:59:32 <myname> if @^1 were @, that would mean @^0 is 1
02:59:44 -!- tromp has joined.
03:00:22 <myname> so we either have to define |@^x| somehow else or we have to say that @^0 is not 1 and @^1 is not @
03:00:28 <zgrep> Whoops,
03:00:29 <zgrep> s/,/./
03:00:32 <myname> i don't like the second part, though
03:00:58 <zgrep> Yeah...
03:01:21 <myname> so the exponential rule is wrong
03:01:39 <zgrep> I mean, it works out that @^0 = 1 and @^1 = 1, they work together... but they end up giving @ a wrong value...
03:02:00 <zgrep> I guess...
03:02:02 <myname> we may do something like ^(sqrt(x)) to work around these sneaky 0 and 1 edge cases
03:04:30 <zgrep> a^b = a*a*a... b times, right? That's the definition we're going with?
03:04:34 <zgrep> Or something else.
03:04:36 <myname> wait, how did your 1/@ worked above
03:05:06 <myname> why is -1 = @^(-1)
03:05:18 <zgrep> I'm not sure what I did above... I've lost my train(s) of thought.
03:05:45 <zgrep> https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/f/8/7f80d3b6fbe1d4e35eca5022242872bf.png <-- that's the definition we're going with, right?
03:06:01 <myname> -1 = |@| = |@^1| = -(@^0)
03:06:07 <myname> yeah
03:06:16 <zgrep> Indeed...
03:07:26 <myname> i do think you made an error above but i am quite unsure
03:07:38 <zgrep> I probably made a few errors above.
03:07:42 <zgrep> |@^k| = @^(k-1) * |@|, right?
03:08:10 <zgrep> Simply because of the fact that |a@| = a|@|
03:08:34 <zgrep> So |@^k| = -(@^(k-1))
03:08:52 <zgrep> If @^0 = 1, then 1 = |@^0| = -(@^(-1))...
03:09:12 <rdococ> aha!
03:09:34 <rdococ> 1 = -(1/@)... that means 1/@ = -1...???
03:10:18 <rdococ> that's... weird - I heard you talking about it above but never stopped to read
03:10:48 <myname> ah
03:10:50 <zgrep> If @^1 = @, then -1 = |@^1| = -(@^0), then 1 = @^0...
03:11:10 <zgrep> -1 = (1/@)...
03:11:18 <rdococ> @^0 = 1, @^-1 = -1, and @^1 = @.
03:11:18 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
03:11:43 <rdococ> I guess 1/-1 has two solutions now
03:12:03 <myname> @ and -1?
03:12:08 <myname> may work out
03:12:21 <zgrep> So how did I show that @ is a number...
03:12:35 <myname> but does this imply it for any division?
03:12:51 <myname> like, is 1/-2 equal to some @ thing?
03:13:19 <zgrep> |@^(-2)| = -(@^(-3))...
03:13:32 <rdococ> 1/-2 = -1/2 or (1/2)@
03:13:35 <rdococ> I would say
03:13:47 <zgrep> |@^-1| = |-1| = 1... so -(@^(-2)) = 1?
03:14:03 <myname> that would make -1 may or may not be @
03:14:24 <zgrep> (@*@) = -1
03:14:25 <zgrep> ?
03:14:25 <rdococ> @^-2 = -1?
03:14:25 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:14:38 <rdococ> |@*@| = 1?!?!?!?!
03:14:44 <myname> no
03:14:51 <myname> |@@| = -@
03:15:06 <rdococ> but zgrep said
03:15:24 <zgrep> If @^-2 = -1, then -1*(@^2) = 1, then @^2 = -1... D:
03:15:48 <rdococ> ...then that means sqrt(-1) = @ and @ = i...
03:15:58 <rdococ> but that's ludicrous
03:16:02 <zgrep> |i| = 1, though.
03:16:05 <zgrep> @ is ludicrous.
03:16:23 <rdococ> indeed, bordering on ridiculous
03:16:31 <rdococ> but interesting enough to keep around
03:16:34 <zgrep> Something weird is going on here with powers... :(
03:17:03 <rdococ> @^-1 is -1, right?
03:17:03 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:17:07 <myname> but that would mean |i| = -1
03:17:27 <myname> rdococ: ot depends on how you calculate
03:17:31 <myname> but yeah
03:17:58 <rdococ> if we assume that @^-1 = -1, then (@^-1)^-1 = -1 too, so @^-2 = -1...
03:18:03 <rdococ> it acts a lot like -1
03:18:05 -!- earendel has joined.
03:18:18 <rdococ> if my maths is right
03:18:38 <zgrep> I'm going to take a break from @ for now.
03:18:56 <rdococ> hmm
03:19:24 <rdococ> I think the problem lies in the absolute value function of x@
03:19:25 <zgrep> What if we just say that |n@| = n|@| instead of -1...
03:19:37 <zgrep> Err, instead of -n.
03:19:49 <rdococ> since f(x) = |x@| doesn't swap slopes at the origin
03:20:18 <rdococ> I mean, |x@| = -x, but |x| = x if x >= 0, and -x otherwise
03:20:23 <rdococ> no such conditional in the @
03:20:24 <myname> rdococ: i don't get ypur (@^-1)^-1 = -1
03:20:33 <zgrep> Something makes me think this is simply a problem of choosing absolute value, something related to distances...
03:20:37 <rdococ> @^-1 = -1
03:20:37 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
03:20:48 <rdococ> -1^-1 = 1/-1 = -1
03:20:52 <rdococ> or @
03:21:01 <rdococ> if we say @^-2 = @
03:21:10 <rdococ> then we complicate things a lot
03:21:19 <myname> ah, i see
03:22:19 <myname> we may need to start from stratch
03:22:28 <rdococ> I'm going to make a small adjustment to @'s behaviour, and call the new one ©.
03:22:35 <earendel> |x|-|x| = -2x?
03:22:50 <rdococ> |x©| = -|x|
03:22:55 <rdococ> so |-©| = -1
03:22:55 <zgrep> |x|-|x| = 0
03:23:23 <zgrep> rdococ: Hm.
03:23:28 <rdococ> if we try © instead of @, do you think it will turn out with less contradictions?
03:23:30 <earendel> is @ something in particulatr already?
03:23:41 <zgrep> `tomfoolery @
03:23:43 <HackEgo> ​​|n@| = -n; |@+k| = -1 - k/@; |@^q| = -(@^(q-1))
03:23:47 <rdococ> © is different in that |-©| < 0
03:23:48 <earendel> thanks
03:23:53 <rdococ> while |-@| > 0
03:24:01 <pikhq> Every time I see @ I think ehird. Alas.
03:24:21 <zgrep> |©| = -1?
03:24:28 <rdococ> yep
03:24:44 <rdococ> |©+k| = -1 - k/©, there's no change there, infact it works with any variable or constant
03:24:46 <myname> rdococ: which is also true for @
03:25:01 <rdococ> but |-©| = -1 where |-@| = 1
03:25:04 <myname> ah
03:25:06 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|... hm...
03:25:44 <myname> that might work
03:25:53 <rdococ> |©©| = -|©| = 1... interesting, difference already - it almost looks recursive
03:25:56 <myname> but i am way to lazy to type a copyright symbol
03:26:02 <rdococ> just put c instead
03:26:04 <zgrep> |n©| = -|n|, |((©+n)/©)©| = |©+n| = -|((©+n)/©)|
03:26:13 <rdococ> whut
03:26:23 <zgrep> Different n's, sorry.
03:27:01 <myname> we might as well call it @ and remove out old draft
03:27:13 <rdococ> nah, incase © runs into problems too
03:27:20 <zgrep> -|((©+n)/©)| = -|1 + n/©|... I don't see how this is still the same as @?
03:27:48 <rdococ> true
03:27:58 <earendel> :)
03:28:00 <rdococ> hmm
03:28:07 <myname> not the same, but we basically made all the rules up from a wrong first definition
03:28:25 <myname> we might as well change that definition and start over still calling it @
03:29:07 <zgrep> I don't see how to unwrap it from the absolute value, though, which could be what makes it work, but still...
03:29:15 <zgrep> ...sort-of sad. :(
03:29:15 <rdococ> |© + k| = |(1 + k/©)/©|. Using the rule where |n©| = -|n|, we get -|1 + k/©|
03:29:21 <myname> or choose some symbol that's on an ordinary keyboard
03:29:42 <rdococ> © looks like @
03:29:47 <earendel> invariance of @
03:30:04 <rdococ> so
03:30:39 <zgrep> myname: Use the all-mighty compose key! :P
03:30:51 <rdococ> |n©| = -|n|; |© + n| = -|1 + n/©|; |©^n|?
03:30:55 <myname> that's a pain in the ass on a software keyboard
03:31:16 <zgrep> myname: Oh... software keyboard? Those have © somewhere, but yeah, it's annoying to get to usually.
03:31:26 <zgrep> Try clicking and holding on 'c' or 'g'?
03:31:42 <zgrep> Or use c. Or `. Or any symbol, really. :P
03:31:47 <myname> i have it in a seperate menu on ,
03:32:17 <rdococ> |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)|
03:32:19 <zgrep> |©^n| = -|©^(n-1)| I thknk.
03:32:22 <zgrep> s/knk/ink/
03:32:30 <myname> ∆ is also an option
03:32:41 <zgrep> But ∆ is taken for small changes.
03:32:43 <rdococ> |©^1| = -|©^0| = -1
03:32:47 <myname> and while we are at it, let's define the ― operation
03:33:00 <zgrep> -? Or –? Or —?
03:33:11 <myname> the last
03:33:13 <rdococ> |©^2| = -|©^1| = |©^0| = 1
03:33:24 <rdococ> indeed, recursive
03:33:29 <myname> ʒ
03:33:37 <zgrep> How about £. :P
03:33:47 <myname> ¸
03:33:52 <rdococ> &
03:33:56 <myname> works nice for multiplication
03:34:03 <zgrep> This is a nice symbol for a variable, right: ‰ ? :P
03:34:11 <rdococ> maybe &
03:34:30 <myname> ¡
03:34:49 <zgrep> -5 = |5©|... hm...
03:35:11 <rdococ> |©^x| is -1 for an odd number but 1 for an even one... weird
03:35:14 <zgrep> © works nicely.
03:35:18 <earendel> (hold ALT) 169
03:35:18 <zgrep> Sort-of bland, though.
03:35:20 <rdococ> |©^0| = 1 works though
03:35:24 <rdococ> |©^-1| = -1
03:35:32 <rdococ> |©^-2| = 1
03:35:41 <zgrep> So ©^2 is now 1?
03:35:46 <earendel> what's a software keyboard? like onscreen interface?
03:35:52 <rdococ> yes
03:35:55 <myname> yeah
03:35:57 <earendel> kay.
03:36:04 <myname> pretty normal on smartphones
03:36:06 <rdococ> |©©| = -|©| = 1
03:36:12 * zgrep takes a break from this to eat some cake
03:36:14 <rdococ> it's recursive
03:36:18 <zgrep> But |1| = 1, therefore ©© = 1
03:36:19 <myname> but
03:36:30 <myname> what is |@©|
03:36:31 <rdococ> uh?
03:36:33 <zgrep> Or ©© = -1...
03:36:38 <zgrep> ©© = ±1
03:36:43 <zgrep> There.
03:37:03 <rdococ> |©| = -|©^0| = |©^-1|
03:37:13 <zgrep> myname: :D
03:37:28 <rdococ> |©©| = 1, surprisingly
03:37:32 <zgrep> myname: Obviously -© = 1
03:37:46 <zgrep> If trying to find |@©| you get that. :P
03:37:57 <zgrep> But I think that's because we don't have a working @.
03:38:22 <zgrep> © = 1 or i... depending on the context? :P
03:38:42 * zgrep really goes away now
03:38:43 <rdococ> when did © become i?
03:38:51 <zgrep> If ©© = ±1...
03:38:59 <zgrep> ...I cheated and reversed an absolute value... :P
03:39:05 <rdococ> then |©©| = 1...huh, it is
03:39:20 <rdococ> hey
03:39:23 <rdococ> you can't do that
03:39:29 <zgrep> Why not? :(
03:39:36 <zgrep> The only way to win is to cheat...
03:39:45 <rdococ> 1 = |1| = |-1| = |©©|
03:39:55 <rdococ> so you mean 1 = -1 now?
03:40:14 <rdococ> you can't reverse an absolute value, like you did anyway, whether © exists or not
03:42:01 <rdococ> anyone else?
03:42:06 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]?
03:42:42 <rdococ> we made a modified version of @ called ©, and |x©| = -|x|...hello?
04:00:01 <zgrep> @tell Sgeo__ @ seems to fail with regards to exponents... at least, it doesn't do too well...
04:00:01 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:00:51 -!- bender| has joined.
04:01:35 <Sgeo__> zgrep, what's going on?
04:03:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: So exponents, as in |@^k|. If we assume that |n@| = -n, and n = (@^k)/@, then |@^k| = -(@^k)/@ = -(@^(k-1))
04:06:10 <zgrep> |@^1| = -(@^0); @^1 = @ (because of https://goo.gl/XMm8lT); So |@| = -1 = -(@^0); so @^0 = 1, so far so good...
04:06:13 <zgrep> But...
04:07:31 <zgrep> |@^0| = |1| = 1 = -(@^(-1)); so (1/@) = -1. Therefore -@ = 1, and @ = -1... :/
04:08:02 <zgrep> Sgeo__: Which it isn't.
04:08:30 <zgrep> Any suggestions?
04:08:46 <zgrep> rdococ: Suggested |n©| = -|n|, which seems to do the trick.
04:08:59 <Sgeo__> Where does |n@| = -n come from? Was that my original definiton, or was it |n@| = -|n|? If i remember my most recent proposed definiton for |a+b@| properly, it would be the second, I think
04:09:57 <zgrep> Sgeo__: I don't know what your original definition was, but I know that I first heard of it as |@| = -1.
04:10:15 <zgrep> Sgeo__: What was your most recent definition?
04:11:13 <Sgeo__> |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is positive, i*sqrt(a^2 - b^2) if a^2 - b^2 is negative. Or something like that
04:11:37 <zgrep> Eek. More if statements, atop the absolute value... :(
04:12:39 <zgrep> So theoretically I could have |3+4i+5@+6i@|? :D
04:12:53 <Sgeo__> Not sure if my definition extends to cover that
04:13:10 <zgrep> If a and b can be complex, then yes.
04:13:16 <zgrep> I think.
04:14:12 <zgrep> |a+b@| = |√(a²+b²)| ?
04:14:18 <zgrep> Err. no.
04:14:26 <zgrep> |a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|) ?
04:14:27 <zgrep> That?
04:15:16 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = √(|a²-b²|)
04:15:20 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
04:15:33 <zgrep> HackEgo is slower than I last recall...
04:17:25 <zgrep> ...either that, or it's my connection.
04:17:42 <rdococ> So |0+1@| = sqrt(|0 - 1|) = 1???
04:18:11 <rdococ> well maybe not???
04:18:40 <zgrep> Hm... or I'm wrong...
04:19:03 <zgrep> i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = i*sqrt(-1) = i^2 = -1... :/
04:19:42 <zgrep> But i = sqrt(-1) so i*sqrt(a^2-b^2) = sqrt(b^2 - a^2), no?
04:21:48 <zgrep> I guess not.
04:22:06 <rdococ> so @ is a time dimension?
04:22:37 <zgrep> But... I*Sqrt[b] == Sqrt[-b] ???
04:22:48 <rdococ> yes, I think
04:22:54 <zgrep> Why isn't this working, then?
04:23:12 <rdococ> dunno
04:23:22 <zgrep> a = 0; b = 1; I*Sqrt[a^2 - b^2] => -1; Sqrt[b^2 - a^2] => 1; :(
04:23:38 <rdococ> but I love the idea of a complex hyperplane that takes place in 2 dimensions of space and 1 of time
04:24:17 <rdococ> Sgeo__: was that your intention? a time dimension?
04:24:45 <zgrep> Well, that's what a negative result from absolute value ends up being.
04:24:47 <zgrep> I guess.
04:24:54 <zgrep> Though not exactly.
04:25:03 <Sgeo__> My recent definition of |a+b@| was inspired by the time dimension, which I believe could be described with a numvber # such that |#| = i
04:25:21 <rdococ> that makes sense
04:25:49 <zgrep> `misle/rn @/|a+b@| = { √(a²-b²) if a²-b² ≥ 0 ; i√(a²-b²) if a²-b² < 0 }
04:26:08 <HackEgo> Was lied to about «@»
04:26:31 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²)
04:26:41 <rdococ> three dimensional tau space
04:26:47 <rdococ> tau representing time dimension
04:27:22 <rdococ> |τ| = sqrt(-1) = i, so it fits your definition too
04:27:42 <zgrep> a + bi + cj + dk <-- 3 dimensions + time?
04:27:53 <rdococ> a + bi + cj - dk
04:28:00 <zgrep> I was close.
04:28:18 <zgrep> Neat. :D
04:28:30 <rdococ> the time dimension is negative
04:28:51 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how hard it is to get to somewhere, so more time allowed, the easier it is
04:29:05 <rdococ> cool, right?
04:29:47 <zgrep> Hm.... hmmmmm.... :D
04:29:57 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if √(a² + b² - c²) >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:30:10 <zgrep> Wait... so if I have 4τ, then |4τ| = ???
04:30:17 <zgrep> Ahah.
04:30:24 <zgrep> 4i?
04:30:29 <zgrep> Err... not 4i.
04:30:31 <zgrep> 2i?
04:30:42 <rdococ> |4t| = sqrt(-16) = 4i
04:30:44 <zgrep> Err. No. I can't think.
04:30:47 <zgrep> Yeah, 4i.
04:30:55 <zgrep> But... how is 4i easier than 3i?
04:31:12 <rdococ> i is basically the negatives
04:31:32 <rdococ> because square roots are like that
04:31:33 <zgrep> That's... why?
04:31:37 <zgrep> But... why?
04:31:55 <rdococ> because x*x=-1 doesn't have any real solution
04:32:23 <rdococ> using my adjusted formula, |4t| = i*sqrt(-16) = 4ii = -4
04:32:29 <rdococ> which is easier than -3
04:32:43 <zgrep> But... why's it adjusted that way?
04:32:56 <zgrep> I guess you could say it just, err, is that way... but...
04:33:06 <zgrep> Oh, there. I see.
04:33:11 <zgrep> I didn't finish reading the line.
04:33:44 <rdococ> but mine is basically the same as Sgeo__'s @
04:34:05 <rdococ> except that I think tau would be a better symbol to fit it than @
04:34:17 <zgrep> Huh. Is this tau known by any other, more widely accepted names?
04:34:23 <zgrep> tau / @ / whatever.
04:34:29 <rdococ> sometimes t
04:34:53 <zgrep> I meant more as in, is there a wikipedia page with a snippet about it? Or any other links?
04:35:11 <rdococ> nah, idk if anyone thought of it yet
04:36:43 <zgrep> This is pretty neat.
04:37:22 <rdococ> well, I did have a similar idea
04:37:38 <rdococ> a number y where e^yx = sinh(x) + ycosh(x)
04:37:50 <rdococ> tau might fit it
04:38:28 <rdococ> so I guess |@| = -1 after all, since it's time and all
04:39:57 <Sgeo__> I should read these logs at some point
04:40:13 <Sgeo__> I'm only half paying attention, and it involves stuff I'm involved with
04:40:31 <rdococ> we should popularise this @ or tau idea
04:40:40 <rdococ> it would be useful
04:40:50 <zgrep> tau, or @?
04:40:53 <rdococ> both
04:40:56 <rdococ> they're the same
04:40:58 <zgrep> tau.
04:41:03 <zgrep> Damn, autocorrect.
04:41:03 <rdococ> just different names
04:41:05 <zgrep> atau.
04:41:06 <zgrep> :P
04:41:15 <zgrep> t@u? :P
04:41:20 <rdococ> lol
04:42:14 <Sgeo__> I'm confused by rdococ's definition... sqrt is always (normally) >= 0 unless comparison is undefined
04:42:37 <Sgeo__> Should it be read as just a^2 + b^2 - c^2 in the conditional?
04:42:41 <rdococ> |a + bi + cτ| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:42:43 <rdococ> yes
04:42:44 <rdococ> you're right
04:43:01 <rdococ> but it's basically the same as yours, with i added on top
04:43:27 <rdococ> I think this kind of stuff is used, just not in this format
04:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm-a-back
04:43:54 <Sgeo__> Is there a way to get the result to be imaginary? Because afaict exactly that is used as the time dimension
04:43:56 <rdococ> also, since it's mostly position, not rotation, if we add a third dimension they don't have to be quarternions
04:44:13 <rdococ> then just remove the conditional
04:44:49 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: With @?
04:44:50 <Sgeo__> But then we exclude negatives
04:45:04 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: |$| = i -> $ = -i@
04:45:10 <Sgeo__> |a + bi + c@ + d#| = ?
04:45:10 <rdococ> what would it mean for the result to be imaginary?
04:45:21 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: What's #?
04:45:36 <Sgeo__> |#| = i
04:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: That's just -i@
04:45:47 <rdococ> what would # mean then?
04:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> |n@| = -n
04:46:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Whatever we like
04:46:20 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: time?
04:46:22 <zgrep> Sgeo__: You mean this thing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaternion
04:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It doesn't /have/ to mean something
04:46:36 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], there's an argument for why |n@| = -n is not a good idea
04:46:42 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Why?
04:46:52 <Sgeo__> And that |n@| = -|n| makes more sense. Something to do with exponentiation
04:46:56 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but if it's part of a system where everything else means something, then it's weird
04:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Ah, good point
04:47:05 <rdococ> I had the |n@| = -|n| idea
04:47:20 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/VqUBVapD/
04:47:21 <rdococ> before we realized it was about the time dimension
04:47:56 <Sgeo__> I'm still convinced that $ or # is time and @ or tau is something else
04:48:14 <rdococ> well
04:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ah, fair enough
04:48:41 <rdococ> distance is a measure of how easy it is to get to somewhere
04:48:51 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: What're $ and #?
04:49:03 <rdococ> if you need to be there in a larger time, then it's easier because you have more time to spare
04:49:12 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Also, we need to standardize terms instead of saying "x or y"
04:49:13 <Sgeo__> hppavilion[1], you just tried to define $ which I tended to call #
04:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Ah
04:49:20 <rdococ> so that's why tau makes distances lower - getting over there in a day is easier than a minute
04:49:41 <rdococ> makes sense?
04:49:45 <rdococ> it's used in other areas
04:49:54 <rdococ> time as a negative dimension isn't a new idea
04:49:59 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: How about we give all the esonums Georgian names?
04:50:13 <rdococ> georgian?
04:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/georgian.html
04:50:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Georgia the country, not the state
04:50:45 <rdococ> georgia is a state?
04:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Greek letters are waaaaaaay overused, and Hebrew is reserved for cardinality
04:50:49 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
04:50:53 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Also a country
04:50:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Two different places, though
04:51:02 <rdococ> I have an even better idea
04:51:03 <rdococ> letter t
04:51:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
04:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> Ⴓ is @
04:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> But... neoletters doesn't render Goergian. Of course.
04:52:04 <rdococ> my chat does
04:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OH!
04:52:13 <rdococ> but I'm sticking with t
04:52:18 <Sgeo__> What's wrong with @ similar to ai for something similar to i except with absolute
04:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Why don't we name them with emoji?
04:52:26 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you should update your neoletters
04:52:41 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I doubt neoletters renders emoji either
04:52:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OK
04:52:45 <\oren\> it's supported Georgian for a while
04:52:47 <rdococ> 3:-D + 2;-)
04:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Linky? I don't remember where it is
04:52:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Those are emo/ticons/
04:53:04 <rdococ> oh
04:53:10 <rdococ> does this chat even support emojis?
04:53:16 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:53:20 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, found it
04:53:28 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It supports Unicode, so yes
04:53:53 <Sgeo__> Some clients might not display it nicely
04:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Perhaps
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04:54:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs[a_, b_, c_] := Module[{s}, s = a^2 + b^2 - c^2; If[s < 0, I*Sqrt[s], Sqrt[s]]]
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04:55:34 <rdococ> zgrep: yep
04:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> Come oooooooon georg- nope
04:55:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I can't get it to install
04:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> I download the latest ttf
04:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> Open the "THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG" window that Windows gives me (sorry)
04:56:11 <hppavilion[1]> Click install
04:56:17 <hppavilion[1]> Say yes when it asks to replace the font
04:56:20 <hppavilion[1]> Doesn't update
04:56:28 <rdococ> Sgeo__: if $ was time, then what's # or t?
04:56:35 <rdococ> @*
04:56:35 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
04:56:37 <\oren\> try restarting your caht app
04:56:41 <\oren\> chat app
04:56:42 <rdococ> s/#/@
04:57:03 <Sgeo__> rdococ, not really sure. A time dimension that doesn't get weird past the speed of light?
04:57:14 <Sgeo__> Or it gets weird in a different way from reality
04:57:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I did. That was the login-logout
04:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: c = \omega
04:58:08 <rdococ> |$| = i, but |t| = -1... what is imaginary distance anyway
04:58:08 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: Fixed.
04:58:58 <\oren\> try setting your font to another one and back to neoletters?
04:59:14 <\oren\> I do that in my terminal each time I update it
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05:00:17 <rdococ> variable = 26
05:00:26 <hppavilion[1]> Would rolling my own IRC client be a bad idea?
05:00:39 <\oren\> no
05:00:57 <\oren\> IRC is a very simple protocol, easy to implement
05:01:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That didn't work
05:01:15 <myname> i'd use ii as a foundation
05:02:08 <rdococ> h,,
05:02:14 <\oren\> there are well-known libraries in Perl and Python for IRC
05:02:21 <rdococ> toiiredp
05:02:34 <variable> rdococ: SEGMENTATION FAULT
05:02:42 <rdococ> huh?
05:02:52 <variable> hppavilion[1]: yeah, IRC is fairly easy to write a client for
05:02:56 <variable> look at the sheer number of bots
05:03:04 <myname> http://tools.suckless.org/ii/
05:05:12 <rdococ> t*t = ?
05:05:39 <zgrep> \oren\, can you guess which is the number 3 and which is the russian letter 'eh'? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/YIDcIFry/3eh.png
05:05:52 <zgrep> Without trying it yourself, that is. :P
05:06:49 <myname> i'd say the left one is a 3
05:07:51 <myname> i am getting sleepy
05:07:58 <\oren\> myname: you are correct
05:11:46 <\oren\> neoletters also has ↋ƐɛɜɝꜾꜿεЄԐԑЗз
05:11:50 <rdococ> should I implement t into Squeak?
05:12:38 <rdococ> what is t*t?
05:13:52 <rdococ> |a + bi + cj + ... + zt| = √(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²) if a² + b² + c² + ... - z² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² + c² + ... - z²)
05:14:02 <rdococ> generalized to n dimensions
05:14:37 <rdococ> but help me discover t*t
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05:16:48 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = isqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = -2
05:17:51 -!- Lyka has joined.
05:17:55 <Lyka> hi
05:18:06 <rdococ> -sqrt(2)*
05:18:16 <Lyka> update on hexadec: made a "reduced" form
05:18:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: make sure in the font menu you select neoletters Regular?
05:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I believe I did
05:18:31 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/49wLRcB3
05:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> Normal
05:19:07 <Lyka> brb
05:19:52 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well that's a prblem. it should be "Regular" nd not "Normal"
05:20:03 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: There is no "Regular"
05:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: So I assume Regular = Normal
05:20:27 <\oren\> the earlier versions had "Normal" the newer ones have "Regular"
05:21:33 <\oren\> hmm maybe go to the controlpanel->fonts and find neoletters and delete it?
05:24:23 <Lyka> back
05:24:48 <Lyka> so, um, does the language make any sense now?
05:25:01 <\oren\> hmm I wonder why installing the new version over the old doesn't work when the naming of the subfonts changed?
05:25:15 <\oren\> spooky
05:29:23 <Lyka> is this a bad time to ask about a language i made?
05:29:39 <rdococ> can you help me determine what t*t is?
05:29:40 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:29:52 <Lyka> t^2?
05:30:08 <rdococ> well, yes, but
05:30:12 <rdococ> what's t^2?
05:30:12 <zgrep> Dang. Perl6 has a bunch of neat things it can do... http://tpm2016.zoffix.com/
05:30:20 <rdococ> I can't seem to figure it out
05:31:27 <rdococ> also, how is getting to (5, 5) in 6 seconds as easy as getting to 50, 50 in 51 seconds?
05:31:45 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²) if a² + b² / c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² / c²)
05:32:00 <zgrep> rdococ: Well, what's t?
05:32:19 <rdococ> |5, 5i, 6t| = sqrt(25 + 25 / 36) = sqrt(50 / 36)
05:32:52 <rdococ> but wait
05:33:03 <rdococ> if we do
05:33:03 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² - c²) if a² + b² - c² >= 0, otherwise i√(a² + b² - c²)
05:33:07 <Lyka> (5*sqrt(2)) / (50*sqrt(2)) == 1/10
05:33:22 <zgrep> rdococAbs[5, 5, 6] = Sqrt[14]
05:33:25 <Lyka> 6/51 != 1/10
05:33:37 <Lyka> sorry
05:33:45 <Lyka> i'm not good at math
05:34:20 <Lyka> passed calc 1 by sucking up during the last 5 weeks
05:34:41 <Lyka> passed calc 2 by dropping out of college
05:34:47 <rdococ> then |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 - 4) = sqrt(-2) but |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 - 16) = sqrt(...oh
05:34:55 <rdococ> wait
05:35:06 <rdococ> -8?
05:35:06 <zgrep> rdococAbs[1, 1, 2] = -Sqrt[2]
05:35:22 <rdococ> ik
05:35:40 <rdococ> should it be - c^2 or / c^2?
05:35:57 <zgrep> rdococAbs is written with - c^2... division?
05:36:09 <rdococ> |a + bi + ct| = √(a² + b² / c²)
05:36:24 <rdococ> getting there in 5 seconds is twice as hard as 10 seconds, same as if you double the distance
05:36:25 <zgrep> Just b/c?
05:36:32 <rdococ> no
05:36:34 <zgrep> Or (a^2+b^2)/(c^2)
05:36:38 <rdococ> yes
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05:37:03 <rdococ> I think that will work better
05:37:14 <zgrep> rdococAbs2[1, 2, I] = -Sqrt[5] :P
05:37:43 <rdococ> well, Abs2[1, 1, 2] should be 1 + 1 / 4, or 1/2
05:37:51 <rdococ> well
05:38:12 <rdococ> |1 + 1i + 2t| = sqrt(1 + 1 / 4) = sqrt(1/2)
05:38:36 <rdococ> |2 + 2i + 4t| = sqrt(4 + 4 / 16) = sqrt(1/2)
05:38:41 <rdococ> yay
05:38:44 <rdococ> it works as intended
05:39:48 <zgrep> 1/Sqrt[2]
05:39:53 <zgrep> Abs2[1,1,2] ^
05:40:06 <rdococ> yay
05:40:20 <rdococ> what software are you using? Mathematica?
05:40:22 <zgrep> Yep.
05:40:25 <rdococ> is it free?
05:40:30 <zgrep> Unfortunately, no.
05:40:35 <rdococ> how much does it cost?
05:40:40 <zgrep> Too much.
05:40:51 <rdococ> really?
05:40:55 <zgrep> I get it free, courtesy of school.
05:41:06 <rdococ> I ask how much money something will cost and you give me the vaguest answer.
05:41:11 <rdococ> -.-
05:41:28 <zgrep> http://www.wolfram.com/mathematica/pricing/
05:41:35 <rdococ> okay
05:41:36 <rdococ> ty
05:41:50 <zgrep> See, pricy.
05:41:53 <zgrep> s/cy/cey/ :P
05:42:18 <zgrep> Though technically, your function is easily written in K...
05:42:36 <rdococ> hmm
05:42:43 <rdococ> or any other language really
05:42:58 <rdococ> just need to figure out t*t
05:43:34 <rdococ> well, multiplying by a unit like 1, i or t should keep the magnitude the same
05:43:42 <rdococ> so |x| = |x*t|
05:43:53 <rdococ> no wait
05:43:59 <rdococ> wait yeah
05:44:00 <rdococ> wait
05:45:43 <Lyka> great.... |x|-rated conversation
05:45:58 <zgrep> Heheh...
05:46:46 <rdococ> well
05:46:53 <rdococ> a space angle is rotation
05:46:58 <rdococ> a space time angle is velocity
05:46:58 <zgrep> rdococ: Mathematica can *sometimes* be fed into Mathics, and perhaps even into WolframAlpha sometimes.
05:48:01 <zgrep> Mathics is this thing: https://mathics.angusgriffith.com/
05:48:53 <Lyka> K?
05:49:08 <zgrep> Lyka: kparc.com/k.txt
05:49:26 <zgrep> Though I don't know if it'd work with imaginary numbers. It wasn't exactly designed for those, I don't think.
05:49:33 <zgrep> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_%28programming_language%29
05:51:22 <rdococ> hm
05:53:40 <rdococ> |x| = infinity
05:53:49 <rdococ> |x + t| = x
05:53:58 <rdococ> 1*
05:54:03 <rdococ> x*
05:54:55 <Lyka> solve for x where x^0 != 1
05:59:24 * Lyka imagines sheep with numbers on them
05:59:30 <Lyka> night
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06:14:10 <rdococ> hhbhb so t ired##
06:16:42 <b_jonas> Internet is full of April's fools jokes now. http://www.questionablecontent.net/ has one.
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06:50:07 <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously?
07:08:05 <b_jonas> I think it's possible. I'll have to try to make a proof.
07:09:14 <dos> Someone should write a Hello, World with 1000000% cruft, MVC, etc.
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07:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> AbstractPrinterFactory()
07:10:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46711&oldid=46710 * Kc kennylau * (+47) /* 0 to 255 using only a, e, u, z (To be completed) */
07:11:49 <Taneb> Today's GG is probably very good for certain shippers
07:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> Could we atomize MVC even further?
07:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> MVCQDNX?
07:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> To make something even more atrocious
07:13:44 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I'm absolutely certain that's been done... http://www.ariel.com.au/jokes/The_Evolution_of_a_Programmer.html
07:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Perhaps we should make the world's most absurdly bloated Beginning Projects Repo
07:16:20 <hppavilion[1]> With officially-named and trademarked programs
07:16:26 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: https://github.com/fwilson42/SimpleJavaEasyNumber
07:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> Industrial strenght, of course
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08:07:09 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/snoopavision?v=MU39xSNukfg
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09:31:38 <oerjan> > ord '='
09:31:40 <lambdabot> 61
09:31:55 <oerjan> @messages-
09:31:55 <lambdabot> boily asked 8h 39m 14s ago: do you feel matched?
09:32:04 <oerjan> @tell boily No.
09:32:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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09:37:16 * oerjan realizes he just did something he's been annoyed at others doing.
09:37:27 <oerjan> @tell boily RE: matching.
09:37:27 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
09:40:03 <zgrep> oerjan: You're unmatched?
09:40:12 <zgrep> :P
09:40:29 <oerjan> in so many ways
09:43:19 <zgrep> Heheh.
09:43:57 <zgrep> That's both happy and sad. :|
09:44:41 <oerjan> yep
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10:19:56 <FireFly> I guess unmatched is better than mismatched (maybe(
10:20:07 <FireFly> Hm, that should probably have been (maybe]
10:31:01 <b_jonas> Are there any vim users here? Vim has a jump list where it tracks big moves, but that's not really what I need. Is there an edit location list where I can find the places I've edited in the file previously?
10:31:26 <zgrep> FireFly: Agh! [)))
10:32:22 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, it has an undo tree that you can query for some info, maybe it includes position
10:32:28 <FireFly> I wouldn't know how to use it though
10:33:14 <FireFly> There's a plugin called gundo that visualizes the undo tree and allows you to jump around in it
10:34:09 <b_jonas> I'd like commands like prevpos and nextpos in joe-editor, which let me quickly jump to places of previous edits. It's very convenient but few editors seem to have it.
10:34:26 <b_jonas> Lets you avoid setting bookmarks a lot.
10:34:44 <FireFly> That sounds useful, yeah
10:35:37 <FireFly> http://stackoverflow.com/a/2131407/1267058 oh.
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10:37:15 <b_jonas> FireFly: ah, that says g, might do that
10:37:49 <FireFly> It seems to work, toyed around with it a bit
10:37:50 <b_jonas> g ; for previous and g , for next. strange assignments
10:38:22 <b_jonas> but they make sense
10:38:25 <FireFly> Probably related to the ; , commands that repeat f/F/t/T forwward/backward
10:38:44 <FireFly> But vim's assignments can be pretty weird and arbitrary sometimes
10:39:04 <FireFly> You could always remap them to something else prefixed by <Leader> if you prefer
10:49:26 <boily> g? is the best g.
10:51:54 <boily> @massages-loud
10:51:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 19m 50s ago: No.
10:51:54 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 14m 27s ago: RE: matching.
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15:32:42 <rdococ> |a + ct| = √(a² / c²)
15:32:47 <rdococ> so what is t*t?
15:32:56 <rdococ> well,
15:33:35 <rdococ> |1 + tt| = sqrt(1 / t^2)
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15:44:07 <myname> did you resolve ©?
15:45:37 <rdococ> sgeo told us that @ was inspired by time dimension and so we come up with |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b| --- the last part was someone else's idea from another channel
15:48:38 <rdococ> so |tt| = |0|/|t|
15:50:13 <rdococ> you going to help?
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16:32:40 <izabera> http://senseis.xmp.net/?TerritoryScoringOnGoServersConsideredHarmful oh em gee
16:32:47 <izabera> considered harmful essays everywhere
16:36:36 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:37:29 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
16:38:50 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: help me with this- |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:38:56 <rdococ> I want to find out t^2
16:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OK
16:39:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You don't have ANY constants
16:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Try defining a and b to appropriate numbers and working from there
16:39:50 <rdococ> no, t is like i but different
16:39:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: |t|=-1, right?
16:40:24 <rdococ> |t| = sqrt(0 / 1) = |0|/|1| = 0 now
16:40:44 <rdococ> and |a + 0t| = sqrt(a^2 / 0) = sqrt(infinity)
16:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: If |t|=0, then doesn't that just make t=0?
16:41:04 <rdococ> not really
16:41:04 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Or t=k
16:41:12 <rdococ> |a + 0| =/= |a + 0t|
16:41:13 <hppavilion[1]> (k^2=0, k!=0)
16:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
16:41:28 <rdococ> no, wait
16:41:46 <rdococ> |a + 0| = |a + 0t|
16:41:48 <rdococ> but
16:41:51 <rdococ> no
16:41:53 <rdococ> ye
16:42:09 <rdococ> |0| = sqrt(0/0) = ???
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16:42:16 <rdococ> |t| = sqrt(0/1) = 0
16:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> "And now there is non-binary sex. I guess that would be "analog sex"..."
16:42:25 <rdococ> in my system |0| =/= 0
16:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> s/"analog sex"/\\"analog sex\\"/
16:42:56 <myname> so... |2t| = 0, but |t + t| = -1
16:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> (sex is gender in this case, not the act between bored teenagers)
16:43:15 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(0 / 2^2) = 0
16:43:23 <rdococ> 2t = t+t
16:43:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: How does |0| != 0? What's |0|?
16:43:31 <rdococ> |a + bt| = √(a² / b²) = |a|/|b|
16:43:46 <rdococ> |0| = sqrt(0 / 0)
16:43:56 <myname> in t+t, a is t and b is 1, in 2t, a is 0 and b is 2
16:44:01 <rdococ> ignore the |a|/|b|
16:44:41 <rdococ> |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1) = t...
16:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So |0| = r for all r in R
16:45:03 <rdococ> |2t| = sqrt(0 / 4) = |t + t| = sqrt(t^2 / 1)
16:45:08 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: yes
16:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: 0/0 can be said to equal any R
16:45:31 <rdococ> sqrt(0 / 4) = sqrt(t^2) = t...??????? what
16:45:41 <rdococ> 0 = t
16:45:49 <rdococ> wth
16:46:07 <rdococ> my original definition was |a + bt| = √(a² - b²)
16:47:24 <rdococ> but that would make it as easy to go 10000 miles in 10001 seconds than to go 1 miles in 2 seconds, whereas the second one is much harder
16:47:33 <rdococ> so I changed it to |a + bt| = √(a² / b²)
16:48:34 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: One of the benefits of @ that t seems to lack is that @ is logical and straightforward; it just has one little gotcha that makes it different, but that can be explained in a single equation with exactly 1 operation (assuming -1 is syntactically a number, not "apply negation to 1")
16:48:48 <rdococ> |@| = -1?
16:48:50 <hppavilion[1]> @ can be explained as |@| = -1
16:48:52 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes
16:48:57 <rdococ> so
16:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You are yet to clearly explain t to me.
16:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And you have to establish all these other rules in the process
16:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> i has the same property: i^2 = -1
16:49:30 <rdococ> we recently found out that sgeo's latest definition for @ is |a + b@| = √(a² - b²)
16:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> There are other subtleties, but the straightforward part of i is just i=sqrt(-1)
16:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Really?
16:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: OK...
16:49:51 <rdococ> apparently
16:49:53 <rdococ> I think
16:49:54 <rdococ> idk
16:49:58 <rdococ> but |@| = -1
16:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's actually pretty interesting
16:50:17 <rdococ> |bt| = √(0² / b²) = 0
16:50:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And much moer useful than the original
16:50:41 <rdococ> but it's not exactly the same as t
16:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But why the division?
16:50:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: You have to explain that too
16:51:07 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: it should be equal difficulty to go 100 miles in 200 seconds as it is to go 10 miles in 20 seconds, t does this but @ doesn't
16:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Beautiful esonums can be explained as a single operation on them equaling a number that operation usually cannot produce
16:51:42 <rdococ> |10 + 20t| = |100 + 200t| but |10 + 20@| =/= |100 + 200@|
16:51:54 <rdococ> hmm
16:52:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Good point, I guess
16:52:13 <rdococ> that's why I changed it to /
16:53:02 <rdococ> another idea I had was e^fx = sinh(x) + rcosh(x) where the esonum is f
16:53:11 <rdococ> s/rcosh/fcosh/
16:53:21 <rdococ> hyperbolic sine and cosine
16:53:32 <rdococ> so it's a hyperbolic i
16:53:38 <rdococ> should I change the definition to that?
16:54:11 <\oren\> we REALLY need to make templates compile faster
16:54:14 <oerjan> @1
16:54:14 <lambdabot> Say again?
16:54:19 <oerjan> @1 What
16:54:20 <lambdabot> W|-|4T
16:54:30 <oerjan> huh
16:54:32 <oerjan> oh
16:54:41 <oerjan> @1337 I see
16:54:42 <lambdabot> i seE
16:55:19 <\oren\> @1337 i am a leet haxor
16:55:19 <lambdabot> I 4M A leE+ Hax0r
16:55:36 <\oren\> not leet enough
16:56:32 <rdococ> e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
16:56:40 <rdococ> like this new idea?
16:58:56 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]
17:00:20 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes?
17:00:24 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Sorry, I vanished
17:00:29 <rdococ> what about this instead - e ͭ ͯ = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:00:45 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The two characters after e aren't rendering
17:01:00 <rdococ> oh
17:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ah, it's e^tx
17:01:21 <rdococ> how'd you figure it out?
17:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: My browser still renders them, and I have the godlike powers of COPY AND PASTE
17:02:03 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x)
17:02:12 <rdococ> anyways
17:02:19 <rdococ> do you think the idea is better than my other one?
17:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It might be, I don't know
17:02:51 <oerjan> i'm not sure there isn't already a t which matches there
17:03:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Does e^jpi = 1?
17:03:09 <rdococ> but the t is an esonum
17:03:12 <\oren\> hppavilion ypu really neeed an update
17:03:20 <rdococ> you mean e^tpi?
17:03:23 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I tried
17:03:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what's j
17:03:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: No
17:03:35 <hppavilion[1]> Where j^2 = 1, j != 1
17:03:40 <rdococ> oh
17:03:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I was typing it, but people kept talking :P
17:04:06 <\oren\> try deleting the font in the vontrl$panel and reintaling it
17:04:31 <\oren\> sorry fpr bad spelibg[im on my phone
17:04:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: try plugging it into the series for e^x, that's my goto-definition for whether that makes sense.
17:05:05 <oerjan> (of course then you have to define the limits too)
17:05:19 -!- vanila has joined.
17:05:20 <vanila> hello
17:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> Need to close hc to delete it
17:05:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:05:43 <oerjan> > [(exp x, sinh x + cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]]
17:05:44 <lambdabot> [(1.0,1.0),(1.1051709180756477,1.1051709180756475),(1.2214027581601699,1.221...
17:05:50 <oerjan> thought so
17:05:57 <oerjan> rdococ: t = 1 hth
17:06:37 <rdococ> e^1x = sinh(x) + cosh(x)?
17:06:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
17:06:44 <\oren\> the build failed again
17:07:00 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I deleted neoletters
17:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Had to close HC and NP++
17:07:16 <rdococ> @_@
17:07:22 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It didn't work, at least for ͭ ͯ
17:07:29 <hppavilion[1]> (And yes, I reinstalled)
17:08:12 <rdococ> e^tx = sinh(x) + tcosh(x), t =/= 1
17:08:28 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Also, the name changed from "normal" to "medium"
17:09:05 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: good it shoukd at least work with georgian noe
17:09:13 <oerjan> rdococ: the hyperbolic functions are pretty much what you get when you take the expressions for the trigonometric ones in terms of exp and remove i's everywhere
17:09:32 <\oren\> ill add those superscripts[when i get home ftom work
17:09:36 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh, it does :)
17:09:37 <oerjan> > [(exp (-x), sinh x - cosh x) | x <- [0, 0.1 ..]] -- testing another
17:09:38 <lambdabot> [(1.0,-1.0),(0.9048374180359595,-0.9048374180359595),(0.8187307530779818,-0....
17:09:43 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yay! It actually did update!
17:09:47 <rdococ> well
17:09:54 <rdococ> how does time rotation work
17:09:59 <oerjan> hm needs switching order, i think
17:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> (In retrospect, the reason it wouldn't update the font was probably because I had applications with it open
17:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, the new s is bugging me :P
17:12:38 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double) -- wondering if ghc uses this exactly
17:12:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:103:
17:12:39 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
17:12:42 <oerjan> darn
17:12:55 <\oren\> nah i did a tesy it is a bug in windows where it won't ovrwrite a otf with a ttf
17:13:28 <oerjan> @check \x -> exp x == sinh x + cosh (x :: Double)
17:13:30 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 3 tests and 4 shrinks):
17:13:30 <lambdabot> 2.4646339992384982
17:13:37 <oerjan> hm apparently not
17:13:37 <\oren\> for some goddamn reason
17:13:52 <rdococ> what about this instead? t = i^2, t =/= -1
17:15:11 <oerjan> rdococ: that violates basic equality laws, which are logic not arithmetic.
17:15:35 <rdococ> I don't see that stopping any other people from doing stuff like it
17:15:45 <oerjan> thataway lies NaN and other madness.
17:15:52 <rdococ> like I saw an esonum where q^2 = 1 but q =/= 1
17:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: That's different
17:16:10 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: And it's called "j"
17:16:25 <oerjan> rdococ: that doesn't violate equality. you can have as many solutions to q^2 = 1 as you want in a general algebra.
17:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's one of the three 2d real algebras (or something)
17:16:45 <oerjan> of course it won't be a field if there's more than two.
17:16:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The other two are the complexes and k, which is like j but for 0
17:16:53 <rdococ> ??????
17:17:22 <rdococ> oerjan: so why can't I do sqrt(t) = i then and t =/= -1?
17:17:27 <oerjan> rdococ: but t = i^2 and i^2 = -1 imply t = -1 from pure logic.
17:17:54 <rdococ> q^2 = 1 and sqrt(1) = q
17:18:09 <rdococ> mine isn't any different
17:18:15 <vanila> ??????????????????????????????????
17:18:50 <rdococ> or ti = -i, but t =/= -1
17:19:28 <oerjan> rdococ: because sqrt a = x, is not the unique solution to x^2 = a, but if you don't have (sqrt a)^2 = a then it's not a square root.
17:19:54 <vanila> hw about this
17:19:59 <vanila> start with the ring Z
17:20:07 <vanila> then take the 'algebraic esoclosure'
17:20:13 <rdococ> okay, I'm using the ti = -i definition along with t =/= -1
17:20:20 <vanila> which is where you add infinityl many distinct solutions to every algebraic equation
17:20:26 <oerjan> rdococ: the point is, to get i^2 to be t you have to redefine i^2 which already exists.
17:20:52 <rdococ> oh...
17:20:55 <rdococ> uh...
17:21:08 <vanila> What do you think?
17:21:11 <rdococ> but there's nothing stopping me from breaking that rule and giving it two solutions
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17:21:20 <rdococ> but anyway
17:21:45 <rdococ> ti = -i but t =/= -1...
17:21:56 <rdococ> ...
17:22:00 <rdococ> ah nevermind
17:22:50 <oerjan> rdococ: ok, just define 2+2 = t while you're at it.
17:23:12 <rdococ> yes good idea
17:23:15 <rdococ> 2 + 2 = t
17:23:17 <rdococ> t - 2 = 2
17:23:19 <rdococ> t / 2 = 2
17:23:22 <vanila> hi
17:23:23 <rdococ> t * 2 = 2
17:23:27 <rdococ> t / 5 = 2
17:24:07 <oerjan> vanila: way ahead of you, it seems.
17:24:13 <vanila> ?
17:24:20 <oerjan> or perhaps crashing high speed into the same point.
17:25:07 <oerjan> (as usual, the real challenge is to end up with anything actually interesting.)
17:25:40 <oerjan> rather than a chaotic mess where everything is equally true.
17:26:00 <vanila> 0=1
17:27:12 <oerjan> make it 1=2 and we can summon pope russell
17:27:19 <rdococ> sin(q) = 2
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17:27:32 <rdococ> stop vanishing
17:27:40 <rdococ> sin(q) = 2
17:28:23 <oerjan> sin(e) q(ua) non
17:28:43 <rdococ> hmm
17:29:21 <rdococ> here it says that in the Minkowski metric, time is imaginary
17:29:39 <rdococ> |x + (y + ti)i|
17:30:16 <rdococ> |x + (y + ti)i| = |x + yi - t|...
17:31:32 <quintopia> sine qua omnes est
17:32:06 <quintopia> im no good at latin
17:33:47 * oerjan summons john cleese to teach quintopia
17:34:21 <oerjan> WITHOUT WHICH THEY ALL IT IS?
17:34:55 <oerjan> actually the IT is redundant
17:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> DANCE THE WAX TADPOLE
17:35:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: *BITE
17:35:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: THAT's what it is
17:36:46 <hppavilion[1]> `addquote <coca-cola> bite the wax tadpole
17:37:20 <HackEgo> 1274) <coca-cola> bite the wax tadpole
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17:56:13 <prooftechnique> "female horse fastened with wax"
17:57:08 <quintopia> i probably meant sine qua omnia est
17:57:28 <oerjan> quintopia: still using a singular verb, there
17:57:57 <oerjan> you just changed the gender of omnia
17:57:57 <b_jonas> no, it's fastened with a staple
17:58:10 <quintopia> i think omnia is singular
17:58:15 <quintopia> it is in english
17:58:27 <quintopia> wait
17:58:27 <oerjan> quintopia: no, it is neuter plural nominative
17:58:32 <quintopia> hmm
17:58:37 <prooftechnique> omnia is plural in nominative, accusative, and vocative
17:58:39 <quintopia> fine have your sunt
17:59:05 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omnis#Declension
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17:59:17 <quintopia> but i dont really want omnia thrn
17:59:28 <oerjan> `? thrn
17:59:28 <prooftechnique> What are you trying to say?
17:59:37 <quintopia> i want the equivalent of english "everything"
17:59:39 <HackEgo> thrn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:59:52 <oerjan> quintopia: omne, then.
17:59:58 <prooftechnique> totum?
18:00:01 <oerjan> or that.
18:00:07 <quintopia> totum est?
18:00:16 <prooftechnique> What's the sentence supposed to be?
18:00:30 <quintopia> without which everything is
18:02:33 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:02:35 <prooftechnique> Doesn't sine take the ablative?
18:03:05 <quintopia> probs bobs
18:03:11 <oerjan> isn't qua ablative
18:03:24 <quintopia> most like
18:03:50 <b_jonas> `? latin
18:04:03 <HackEgo> latin? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:04:12 <prooftechnique> Oh, duh. There are like 3 quis in Latin, and I mixed them up
18:04:55 <oerjan> `le/rn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:04:56 <HackEgo> No output.
18:05:00 <oerjan> oops
18:05:04 <oerjan> `learn LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'latina': LATINA EST SUBLIMISSIMA LINGUA MUNDI
18:05:10 <oerjan> hm
18:05:10 <shachaf> le/rn: print better output twh
18:05:24 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/latin{a,}
18:05:26 <HackEgo> No output.
18:06:38 <prooftechnique> I think sine qua omne est is probably the closest.
18:06:39 <shachaf> le/rn is taking over
18:06:46 <shachaf> even your beloved learn is not immune
18:06:53 <oerjan> ;_;
18:07:35 <prooftechnique> In Latin, learning is disco, baby
18:10:01 <shachaf> `? le/rn
18:10:03 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
18:10:04 <prooftechnique> `` ln -s bin/slashlearn bin/disce
18:10:09 <HackEgo> No output.
18:10:23 <shachaf> That wisdom entry is outdated now.
18:10:24 <oerjan> <b_jonas> In underload, is it possible to store data in the source code at four bits per source code character density such that the program can decode it unambiguously? <-- of course not, there are only 9 command characters and no way to decode non-command ones. also some combinations are nops or infinite loops so you have to avoid them.
18:10:34 <prooftechnique> `disce Learning is disco, baby.
18:10:34 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: disce: not found
18:10:41 <prooftechnique> Oh, boo
18:10:59 <oerjan> you can store 1 bit per character, though, as i did in the rule 110 program.
18:11:50 <Caesura> Daoyu commands fill the 4-bit space
18:12:07 <oerjan> maybe you can find a code that gives 2, i'd be surprised if 3 were possible (you'd need to be able to lose only one character possibility on average)
18:12:09 <quintopia> daoyu makes little sense
18:12:24 <Caesura> Eh, how so?
18:12:37 <Caesura> If the specification is unclear, please tell me so I can improve it
18:12:50 <quintopia> the diagrams communicate nothing
18:12:58 <Caesura> Ah, I'll fix that right now
18:13:05 <prooftechnique> `disce Learning is disco, baby.
18:13:05 <Caesura> They were a bit of a rush job
18:13:06 <HackEgo> No output.
18:13:12 <prooftechnique> `? learning
18:13:14 <HackEgo> learning? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:14:14 <prooftechnique> `? learning
18:14:15 <HackEgo> Learning is disco, baby.
18:14:17 <prooftechnique> There
18:14:36 <oerjan> prooftechnique: ooh you meant that disco literally
18:14:59 -!- oerjan has set topic: Aut disce aut discede | The international hub of esoteric programming language and kitten typesetting | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Budapest.
18:15:07 <prooftechnique> I guess really the gerund is discere, but whatever hth
18:16:26 <prooftechnique> I really like that topic :)
18:16:57 <quintopia> is a real old latin verb?
18:17:05 <quintopia> "to disc"?
18:17:20 <prooftechnique> Most Latin verbs are old
18:17:31 <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP
18:17:35 <Caesura> To teach
18:17:49 <Caesura> There is no gerund
18:17:52 <quintopia> prooftechnique except the new ones
18:17:57 <prooftechnique> Caesura: To learn
18:18:03 <Caesura> gah
18:18:17 <Caesura> doceo
18:18:20 <Caesura> got that mixed up
18:18:20 <prooftechnique> Somewhat wonderfully, dedisco is to unlearn
18:18:34 <Caesura> Doceo, docere, docui, doctus
18:18:38 <Caesura> That's to teach
18:18:45 <prooftechnique> Hence docent :)
18:18:46 <rdococ> doctus
18:19:03 <Caesura> 3rd person plural indicative active present
18:19:12 <oerjan> prooftechnique: i think "discere" is the infinitive, but wiktionary's table lists it as nominative gerund which it sort of logically is
18:19:13 <Caesura> Hence doctor, one who teaches
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18:19:41 <Caesura> Infinitives as gerunds can be done... but there isn't anything like "discendus"
18:20:11 <oerjan> Caesura: because the real gerund is not used in the nominative...
18:20:32 <Caesura> This is where I realize that I have spent the last two years unlearning the latin from the three years prior
18:20:44 <prooftechnique> I think they call it a degenerate form or something? My Latin grammar is a little hazy
18:21:00 <rdococ> m=m*2
18:21:11 <Caesura> I think that's right
18:21:59 <prooftechnique> I wish I knew more Ancient Greek, but I don't think any time I spent learning Latin was wasted
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18:22:43 <Caesura> I learned a bit of Attic Greek under the notion that it would be easier
18:22:49 <Caesura> It is not. It is not easier than Latin.
18:22:59 <oerjan> Caesura: funny, virtually all my latin grammar i learned ~ 30 years ago from a grammar i found in the town library. and i still remember much of it.
18:23:34 <Caesura> Aeorist prefixing was such a pain with greek
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18:23:48 <Caesura> I won awards in state and national competitions on Latin
18:24:10 <prooftechnique> I would really like to know what it is in the human brain that seems to lead to the mutation of "to be" and "to go" in so many languages.
18:24:11 <quintopia> wow i wouldnt have guessed you were as old as that implies.
18:24:25 <prooftechnique> oerjan: Is 31 and advanced
18:24:32 <prooftechnique> Such a strong child
18:24:34 <Caesura> I should try and keep Latin fresh in my memory with a bit more effort, hm
18:24:41 <oerjan> prooftechnique: 45
18:25:03 <quintopia> i learned it in two year-long classes 15 years ago and remember little besides vocabulary and 1st and 2nd declension suffices
18:25:40 <Caesura> I think I spent my fifth year of latin unlearning it, the more I think about that
18:25:55 <prooftechnique> I mainly just use it for passphrases, now.
18:25:59 <Caesura> The gerundive / gerund distinction never really sunk into my memory, I think :x
18:26:01 <prooftechnique> Free word order is pretty nice.
18:26:14 <Caesura> Gerundive is the non-nominative, the noun of "to verb," right
18:26:31 <Caesura> No, isn't that the gerund
18:26:40 <Caesura> Ah, self-demonstration
18:26:56 <prooftechnique> Gerund is -ing, gerundive is the adjectival form
18:28:04 <oerjan> <Caesura> disco, discere, dedici, no PPP <-- hm are you saying wiktionary's table is erroneous, then
18:28:20 <prooftechnique> Though Romans were goofs and sometimes used the gerundive in place of the gerund for euphony
18:28:25 <prooftechnique> This kills the translator
18:28:27 <ais523> any april 1 stuff worth checking out this year?
18:29:19 <prooftechnique> Personally, I can't wait to see what my talky box from Amazon has cooked up while I've been at work. It has the power to call my phone, so I expect prank calls.
18:30:31 <prooftechnique> oerjan: PPP is the past participle, which disco does not have.
18:30:47 <vanila> ais523, you can telnet read wikipedia
18:31:04 <vanila> and this https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7511
18:31:04 <prooftechnique> Though it does have a passive one, so...
18:31:10 <int-e> fungot: smile!
18:31:11 <fungot> int-e: what is that?
18:31:26 <prooftechnique> fungot: What do you like on pizza?
18:31:26 <fungot> prooftechnique: i have a drug overdose? wah, that spoils it even more simply in our new language
18:31:37 <ais523> vanila: telnet wikipedia actually seems potentially useful
18:31:41 <ais523> I hope they keep it around
18:31:44 <APic> Yah
18:31:48 <vanila> ais523, there is already a gopher wikipedia
18:31:50 <ais523> I mean, you could telnet to port 80 but it's annoying
18:31:57 <APic> True.
18:32:41 <prooftechnique> ais523: connection refused :(
18:32:48 <ais523> huh, RFC MMI syntax has a MIGHT?
18:32:54 <ais523> Agora uses MAY for that
18:34:15 <ais523> someone posted a patch for a leftpad(2) syscall to the Linux kernel
18:34:25 <ais523> that was at least mildly amusing
18:34:25 <Caesura> The wikipedia table lists the supine... hmmm
18:34:34 <ais523> the kernel devs are pretending to take it seriously
18:35:09 <Caesura> We were taught with the fourth principal part as the PPP
18:35:46 <b_jonas> ais523: ouch...
18:35:53 <b_jonas> leftpad system call
18:36:21 <b_jonas> did they also post a libc wrapper with userspace emulation as fallback to the gnu libc mailing lists?
18:36:32 <ais523> come to think of it they shuld probably implement it in the vDSO
18:36:36 <ais523> b_jonas: not that I saw
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18:49:49 <rdococ> hmm
18:50:23 <rdococ> what about an esoteric programming language that's turing complete because of its esonums
18:50:41 <ais523> what's an esonum?
18:51:04 <APic> 42
18:51:09 <rdococ> a number defined to behave like a number, but slightly different
18:51:14 <APic> Seriously.
18:51:22 <APic> Marvin Minsky
18:51:28 <vanila> rdococ, that's a really cool idea i like it
18:51:33 <rdococ> e.g. an esonum called @ could do this - |@| = -1
18:51:47 <vanila> rdococ, did you hear my idea about alg. esoclosure
18:51:53 <rdococ> don't think it was my idea
18:52:44 <rdococ> an esolang with addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, exponentiation and i
18:52:52 <rdococ> 3+2i^5i
18:52:57 <rdococ> e^i
18:53:08 <vanila> #^@
18:53:15 <Phantom_Hoover> p sure you can have a TC esolang just with reals and equality...
18:53:26 <vanila> what about a programing lanugage based on counter examples to tarskis high school algebra problem?
18:53:31 <vanila> the number system
18:53:50 <rdococ> what about
18:53:52 <vanila> those are surely esonumbers
18:54:04 <rdococ> a programming language that doesn't need to evaluate things to manipulate them
18:54:14 <Phantom_Hoover> you mean haskell?
18:54:27 <rdococ> it would be able to detect that 3+2 = 4+1 without evaluating either for example
18:54:55 <rdococ> a better example is 3+2+x = 5+x
18:55:12 <rdococ> it would be able to do that without evaluating x
18:56:02 <Phantom_Hoover> how do you tell which bits to evaluate
18:56:40 <rdococ> super lazy evaluation - if there's any way round evaluating something, do that way
18:57:00 <rdococ> 3+2+x = 5+x for example - you might need to evaluate 3+2, but not x
18:57:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Daoyu]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46712&oldid=46696 * Kaynato * (+1059) Clarifications (replaced diagrams)
18:57:53 <rdococ> e^sqrt(-1)x would equal sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without evaluating sqrt(-1)
18:58:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:58:06 <rdococ> say |@| = -1, no error there either
18:58:56 -!- zzo38 has joined.
18:59:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Kaynato * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Daoyu Symbol Table.png]]": Irrelevant information removed
18:59:39 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: we were just discussing super lazy evaluation - an idea where a programming language would try its absolute hardest not to evaluate something, it's almost not lazy
18:59:55 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, I've heard of that
19:00:08 <vanila> how would it know what not to evaluate?
19:00:11 <rdococ> e.g. in such a language, a computer would detect that e^sqrt(-1)x = sin(x) + sqrt(-1)cos(x) without ever knowing that sqrt(-1) = i
19:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Ultimate Lazy Evaluation just prints out the program and tells you to "do it your fucking self"
19:00:22 <Caesura> quintopia: Is this better?
19:00:35 <rdococ> vanila: it wouldn't evaluate anything, just manipulate, simplify and stuff
19:01:21 <rdococ> (1/0)/0 = 1, and it wouldn't even know that 1/0 evaluates to an error
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19:01:38 <Caesura> You're talking about symbolic computation?
19:01:38 <rdococ> s/(1/0)/0/1/(1/0)/
19:01:40 <rdococ> yes
19:01:49 <Caesura> Pretty sure you can set that up with Wolfram
19:02:07 <rdococ> yes but it detects stuff like 1/0
19:02:19 <rdococ> mine would be too lazy to realize that 1/0 evaluates to an error
19:02:25 <\oren\> huh theres a vuln in emacs this time?
19:02:27 <Caesura> With some redefinitions you coul do that also
19:03:09 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, so i guess you just try every evaluation order possible until you get a normalised expression?
19:03:29 <rdococ> perhaps...?
19:03:36 <rdococ> maybe it could use substitution
19:03:42 <rdococ> e.g. 1/1/x = x
19:03:59 <rdococ> or (x^y)^z = x^yz
19:04:01 <Caesura> Wolfram evaluates 1/(1/0) to be 0, it seems
19:04:24 <Caesura> Although it also WARNS you that 1/0 is encountered, it doesn't break the entire thing
19:04:53 <rdococ> oh, right, 1/1/0 = 0
19:04:59 <rdococ> wolfram is right
19:05:12 <Caesura> It is very powerful for symbolic computation
19:05:12 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, well i mean at this stage it's not actually true
19:05:13 <rdococ> but it's eager enough to warn you
19:05:18 <Caesura> Yes
19:05:27 <Phantom_Hoover> e.g. (x^y)^z is not true for general real exponents
19:05:56 <rdococ> it's not?
19:06:19 <rdococ> (x^y)^z = x^(y+z)?
19:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> ((-1)^2)^0.5 is not equal to (-1)^1
19:06:23 <rdococ> I can't remember
19:06:37 <rdococ> you need to add them, right?
19:06:55 <Caesura> No, that's for multiplying exponents of equal bases
19:06:58 <prooftechnique> \oren\: What vuln?
19:07:02 <prooftechnique> Also check the date, just in case
19:07:07 <rdococ> huh...
19:07:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the issue with doing e.g. the 1/0 trick you mentioned is that if you specify all these substitution rules you can evaluate 1/0 to get contradictory values
19:07:16 <rdococ> then what is (x^y)^z?
19:07:29 <Caesura> @PH Yes, thus indeterminate forms
19:07:29 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
19:07:32 <Phantom_Hoover> it's (x^y)^z, that's all you can say
19:07:38 <rdococ> oh
19:07:41 <rdococ> okay
19:08:49 <rdococ> infact, why not make the numbers mathematical symbols?
19:08:59 <\oren\> prooftechnique: i just got a work email saying dont use emacs
19:09:22 <\oren\> i use nano anyway
19:11:14 <rdococ> who knew sqrt(-1) could be so useful
19:12:10 <Caesura> You have heard of Cayley-Dickson construction?
19:12:19 <Caesura> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley%E2%80%93Dickson_construction
19:12:41 <vanila> no i havent
19:12:46 <vanila> would you recommend it?
19:12:49 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but after a certai point the results of that can't be called 'numbers'
19:13:04 <vanila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem
19:13:06 <vanila> check this one out
19:13:07 <vanila> this is really fun
19:13:13 <Caesura> Yes, true, but the first few steps provide useful constructs
19:13:31 <Caesura> The Geometric Algebra is much more powerful, however, in my own personal opinion
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19:17:29 <Caesura> Anyway, if I could ask for feedback
19:17:43 <Caesura> Is the current specification of Daoyu understandable and clear
19:17:46 <\oren\> that list of axioms is bullshit. i was taught plenty about subtraction and negative numbrts in high school
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19:18:15 <rdococ> isn't subtraction just adding negative numbers?
19:18:36 <prooftechnique> \oren\: I'm leaning toward work pranks on that email
19:19:14 <\oren\> right. but that list is missing --x = x for example
19:19:51 <\oren\> and x - y = x + -y
19:20:03 <rdococ> :/
19:20:06 <rdococ> true
19:26:29 <\oren\> it shoukd be called tarskis alternate universe high school problem, where subtraction is a university discipline
19:29:25 <\oren\> ofc one day we might consider complex numbers to be a high school subject
19:29:32 <Caesura> they are
19:29:42 <\oren\> not in canada
19:29:51 <Caesura> Strange
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19:38:01 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: α-expressions are fun
19:38:11 <hppavilion[1]> (s/// is a well-known α-expression)
19:38:31 <hppavilion[1]> (y/// is less well-known, and m// is not used at all)
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20:03:44 <rdococ> what about a language where there are no conditionals and you have to execute arbritary code stored in lookup tables
20:06:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
20:09:32 <b_jonas> ais523: have anyone examined how densely you can embed information in underload source code such that the underload program can decode it?
20:09:52 <ais523> b_jonas: it's possible to manage at least one bit per character
20:10:07 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can manage two bits per char at least, but I haven't made a proof
20:10:08 <ais523> IIRC somewhere oerjan made a parser for strings of : and ^
20:10:28 <ais523> going higher there isn't an obvious method, but that doesn't mean there isn't a non-obvious one
20:10:29 <b_jonas> I should examine it, I don't understand underload enough and this seems like a thing that lets me explore it
20:11:14 <ais523> well reaching three bits per character is obviously impossible
20:11:20 <b_jonas> ais523: I think I'll try to decode strings made of ~ ! : *
20:11:24 <ais523> so the true value is ≥ 1 and < 3
20:11:32 <b_jonas> ais523: you could receive fractional bits
20:11:40 <ais523> b_jonas: !~~ and ~~! are eqivalent
20:11:45 <b_jonas> and it doesn't have to be stateless, if parenthesis are involved
20:11:46 <ais523> b_jonas: sure, I expect the number of bits to be fractional
20:11:59 <ais523> also ~~ and :! are equivalent
20:12:12 <ais523> and :*:* is equivalent to :::***
20:12:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, if the string (supposed you know the length) is parenthisized, you execute it, then the characters get pushed into the stack, and you can execute them one by one
20:12:25 <b_jonas> ais523: as in, you can use a to parenthisize them
20:12:41 <ais523> b_jonas: a parameterizes an entire stack element, it doesn't break the string into characters
20:12:49 <ais523> ~~ and :! are equivalent; (~~) and (:!) are also equivalent
20:12:53 <ais523> and both equivalent to ()
20:12:58 <b_jonas> you, but ^ opens the parenthesis, doesn't it?
20:13:14 <ais523> b_jonas: it just moves the contents of the TOS onto the program
20:13:27 <ais523> (~~)^ is equivalent to (:!)^ is equivalent to ~~ is equivalent to :!
20:13:32 <ais523> none of them do anything :-P
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20:13:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and if that element it moved is a parenthesisized block, then doesn't executing the block push each of the elements to the stack?
20:14:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: you did notice my comment about underload to you above, right?
20:14:31 <ais523> b_jonas: if you move ((~~)) to the program you end up with (~~) in the program, which then pushes (~~) to the stack
20:14:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: ah... I didn't
20:14:45 <ais523> can you give an example of what you're /expecting/ to happen? it feels like you have some sort of fundamental misconception here
20:14:51 <oerjan> that rule 110 program is the :^ parser
20:16:02 <ais523> come to think of it, I suspect that strings of :^a are parseable
20:16:07 <ais523> I'd be pretty surprised if they weren't
20:16:19 <ais523> oh, except if you have a then ^
20:16:22 <ais523> with nothing in between
20:16:25 <ais523> as that's a no-op
20:16:27 <oerjan> ais523: no. right.
20:16:59 <oerjan> i concluded : and a were parseable, but more complicated than what i did, and also uglier.
20:17:00 <ais523> and strings like a:^ would also cause problems
20:17:16 <oerjan> but no other 2 character combinations work
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20:17:24 <ais523> :a is obviously parseable, because the result of a never affects the second stack element
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20:17:40 <ais523> meaning that you can create a sentinel value that does to act as your zero
20:17:40 <b_jonas> ais523: I expect that the program (xy) puts x and y to the stack (x on top), so (xy)!^ will try to execute y, and (xy)~!^ will try to execute x
20:18:00 <ais523> b_jonas: ah, right, your problem is that the stack isn't a stack of characters
20:18:03 <ais523> it's a stack of strings
20:18:12 <ais523> (xy) pushes a single element, xy, to the stack
20:18:17 <ais523> then ^ moves that element as a whole into the program
20:18:22 <b_jonas> sure, it's a stack of strings because ((xy)) pushes a single string (xy) to the stack
20:18:38 <ais523> normally we put parens around each stack element when discussing Underload
20:18:39 <b_jonas> doesn't executing a parenthesis open it to the stack?
20:18:42 <oerjan> i forgot that S is useless, so you have only 8 usable chars, so clearly 3 bits is impossible, right
20:18:47 <b_jonas> oh...
20:18:52 <b_jonas> what the heck is the point of that?
20:18:53 <ais523> oerjan: and ( and ) have to be paired
20:18:57 <b_jonas> why doesn't it open the parens
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20:19:05 <ais523> b_jonas: because that would be an entirely different language
20:19:08 <b_jonas> I mean, if you don't want to open the parens, you can just a^ instead of ^
20:19:27 <ais523> actually in Underlambda I'm going the other way, removing S
20:19:45 <b_jonas> this makes underload much harder to program
20:19:47 <ais523> this allows you to optimize code both inside the stack and inside the program
20:19:48 <b_jonas> and indeed very different
20:19:48 <ais523> it becomes a pure functional language because the stack elemenets are entirely opaque
20:20:29 <oerjan> ais523: ( and ) pairing is not _really_ a problem as i think that gives only o(something) contribution to the no. of bits.
20:20:32 <b_jonas> ais523: yep
20:20:34 <b_jonas> crazy
20:20:42 <oerjan> but any nop like :! is fatal
20:21:01 <ais523> b_jonas: Underload's meant to be about function representation, not string manipulation
20:21:18 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not "string manipulation", more like tree manipulation
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20:21:34 <b_jonas> because it manipulates elements that are either letters or parenthisized trees
20:21:45 <b_jonas> it doesn't manipulate individual characters of a tree
20:21:52 <ais523> right
20:21:55 <ais523> actually Overload worked like that
20:22:12 <b_jonas> did I accidentally invent a language?
20:23:19 <ais523> perhaps, I don't like it though :-(
20:23:23 <rdococ> what about a language where a sentence is an array of words
20:23:26 <ais523> the set of commands doesn't make much sense in this language
20:23:27 <rdococ> and a word has a meaning
20:23:31 <ais523> you'd probably want a string compare command too, at least
20:23:36 <rdococ> e.g.
20:23:43 <rdococ> the cat ate the dog
20:23:56 <rdococ> cat is the noun, ate is the verb, dog is the subject, or victim
20:24:17 <b_jonas> ais523: no no, not a string compare command
20:24:25 <b_jonas> I'd want a nop command though, probably space and newline
20:24:42 <b_jonas> make that space, tab, lf, cr
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20:25:22 <ais523> b_jonas: this is like having C, plus a command that breaks a function pointers into individual asm opcodes in the function it points to
20:25:30 <ais523> and yet have no way to determine what those opcodes are other than executing them
20:26:22 <b_jonas> I'm reminded to two obfus in other languages: the lua one I wrote that uses the same string as both code and data so that if you try to tamper with the code then the output breaks completely, and pts's obfu in dc which uses the same strings as both code and data: dc can't really examined things so I thought that was impossible, but it turns out dc has a length command that queries the length of a string
20:27:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I can see why you don't like that concept
20:27:51 <ais523> it's just a mix of paradigms that doesn't make sense
20:27:56 <ais523> it's inelegant
20:27:57 <b_jonas> yep
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20:32:39 <b_jonas> ais523?
20:32:50 <oerjan> he left.
20:33:44 <int-e> `quote raspberry
20:34:05 <HackEgo> No output.
20:36:11 <int-e> `quote berry
20:36:13 <HackEgo> 471) <itidus20> lets not wander around the mulberry bush beating our heads
20:36:29 <int-e> fungot: do you know any berries?
20:36:29 <fungot> int-e: ( and i've only seen ocean from far above in a positive light)
20:36:39 <int-e> `quote berri
20:36:41 <HackEgo> No output.
20:37:02 <oerjan> perhaps it was deleted.
20:37:02 <b_jonas> so in the description of Underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack top is on the right, not on the left like other such descriptions usually denote, right?
20:37:18 <int-e> that sounds very malancholic, fungot.
20:37:18 <fungot> int-e: the description sounds like fnord talk to me instead
20:37:21 <b_jonas> fungot, which episode?
20:37:21 <fungot> b_jonas: proposals only last 15 minutes of fame? guile? you don't get special food, but they look exactly the same for cl, not fnord two of those
20:37:37 <b_jonas> fungot: have you read the SIGBOVIK 2016 proceedings?
20:37:37 <fungot> b_jonas: http://www.fourmilab.ch/ hotbits/ with fnord key and browser with fnord?) has a problem. whom should it be:
20:37:39 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought on the right was standard forth-notation?
20:37:58 <shachaf> Oh, SIGBOVIK is today.
20:38:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't know
20:38:14 <int-e> fools!
20:38:28 <oerjan> int-e: will you show them all?
20:38:41 <int-e> oerjan: no I'm just waiting for this stupid day to pass.
20:39:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: I guess top on right makes sense in a forth/postscript-like language where lots of statements are literal so just push on the stack, so the stack often looks similar to the code
20:40:08 <shachaf> int-e: What's wrong with today?
20:40:15 <shachaf> `olist 1032
20:40:16 <HackEgo> olist 1032: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:40:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway half the point of the notation we've settled on is that it makes it easy to see underload execution as a program transformation - where stack elements don't need to be distinguished from the program.
20:40:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: right
20:41:07 <b_jonas> and it seems that http://www.cs.cornell.edu/icfp/task.htm puts the stack top on the right as well
20:41:30 <shachaf> april fools!
20:41:35 <shachaf> this is great
20:41:38 <b_jonas> it's just not so obvious from descriptions like this because most operations would make sense to define with the inputs in any order
20:41:40 <FireFly> int-e: #ircpuzzles is a good way to spend April 1 (and 2 and 3 and.. well, it usually takes a while to solve them)
20:41:49 <b_jonas> and in any case you can permute the stack top elements before running the command
20:41:52 <FireFly> (it's a yearly tradition to have puzzles on April 1)
20:41:56 <shachaf> FireFly: HireFly
20:41:57 <Taneb> I am awful at writing documentation]
20:42:01 <FireFly> hachaf
20:42:07 <Taneb> Especially when it's a program which I know how it works
20:42:27 <Taneb> And didn't intend anyone else to use it when I was writing it
20:42:53 <FireFly> noh that was an evil olist
20:44:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46714&oldid=40261 * B jonas * (+5)
20:44:16 <shachaf> FireFly: sorry
20:44:58 <oerjan> shachaf: you may have had your fun, but what about YOUR IMMORTAL SOUL?
20:45:15 <shachaf> oerjan: what about it?
20:45:28 <oerjan> it may be in peril tdnh
20:45:58 <shachaf> didn't you just say it was immortal
20:47:00 <oerjan> yes, but not pain resistant
20:47:26 * Taneb is finally writing a page for COMPLEX
20:48:12 * Taneb has largely forgotten the art of wiki page writing
20:51:21 <rdococ> who needs conditionals
20:51:39 * Taneb needs conditionals
20:52:00 <rdococ> you could remove the IF from Lua and it'd still be turing complete
20:53:15 <rdococ> proof: local code = {true = function () print("yay") end, false = function () print("nay") end}; code[3 > 2]
20:53:32 <rdococ> so
20:53:56 <rdococ> say bye to for loops too
20:54:18 <rdococ> and any other non-necessary construct
20:54:34 <rdococ> I will strip Lua and make a turing tarpit called TarLua... or EsoLua...
20:55:03 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:57:42 <b_jonas> ais523: it turns out that one thing that confused me about underload is this: in the (stackbefore – stackafter) style description of stack-based language operations, including underload at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Commands , the stack is listed with the top of stack on the right, but this isn't obvious at first.
20:58:08 <ais523> b_jonas: this is standard for Underload; I'm not sure if it's mentioned on the page
20:58:13 <ais523> I write it in most of my writing about it though
21:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Evil]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46715&oldid=46711 * Iconmaster * (+2538) Got a lot of information from the site onto the wiki
21:02:51 <b_jonas> ] 3*9500
21:02:59 -!- evalj has joined.
21:03:02 <b_jonas> ] 3*9500
21:03:02 <evalj> b_jonas: 28500
21:07:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
21:08:20 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
21:13:06 <hppavilion[1]> Fuzzy String Matching is interesting
21:14:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46716&oldid=46714 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
21:15:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pylongolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46717&oldid=46708 * Iconmaster * (+34) Stub'd
21:15:56 <rdococ> pylongolf
21:15:57 <rdococ> gml
21:16:10 -!- spiette has quit (Quit: :qa!).
21:16:11 <Taneb> Do we have a stub template?
21:16:19 <Taneb> I can't be bothered to write this article right now
21:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46718&oldid=46707 * Iconmaster * (+10) Stub'd
21:17:02 -!- iconmaster has joined.
21:19:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46719&oldid=37163 * Iconmaster * (-75)
21:22:41 <iconmaster> Hello. Suddenly felt like coming back and helping with some wiki stuff. How's it going?
21:24:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bulan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46720 * Rdococ * (+925) It's still Turing complete. I think. I'll leave the exercise of proving that it's TC up to you.
21:24:58 <myname> https://youtu.be/QScVVDwxSWA procrastinating like a pro
21:27:26 -!- jaboja has joined.
21:29:49 <\oren\> i ordered a elektronika mk-61 calculator
21:33:16 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:33:40 -!- Reece` has joined.
21:33:52 <oerjan> Taneb: yes.
21:35:39 -!- Reece` has quit (Client Quit).
21:39:27 <zgrep> \oren\: A soviet calculator, neat.
21:40:11 <Taneb> oerjan, how do I apply the stub template
21:40:35 <oerjan> myname: NOW WE KNOW
21:40:50 <oerjan> Taneb: {{stub}}
21:40:59 <oerjan> HTH
21:41:06 <Taneb> TDH
21:44:19 -!- Reece` has joined.
21:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[COMPLEX]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46721 * Taneb * (+345) Start making this article
21:44:49 -!- Reece` has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:46:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46722&oldid=46691 * Taneb * (+14) /* C */ Add COMPLEX
21:47:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nathan van Doorn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46723&oldid=35933 * Taneb * (+13) Add COMPLEX
21:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make a regex family called Irgex, with support for 2D matching and TC matching and all of these nice things
21:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> But with the core subset being efficient
21:48:34 <myname> actually, there are 2d regex
21:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Why limit it to the Gaussian Integers? Why not allow real values in general?
21:48:40 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I've heard
21:48:50 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Or 2D bnf. It's documented on catseye
21:50:05 <myname> i actually used these in my thesis
21:50:20 <myname> well, mentioned
21:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm trying to find different classes of expressions
21:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> The first I define is the π-expression, which is the traditional x+y, -z, [i], etc.
21:53:36 <hppavilion[1]> There's also the α-expression, which is a generalization of s/// and y///
21:53:38 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], reasons
21:53:47 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Ah, very good choice
21:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm stuck there though. Are there any other fairly general types of expression?
21:56:22 <zgrep> For a group of esoteric language creators, I'm surprised that the wiki doesn't auto-generate the list of languages...
21:56:59 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: That'd be too straightforward
21:57:04 <zgrep> All pages that are programming languages should be put in a category (or tagged, or something) "language", and the list would automatically update...
21:57:07 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Also, we have pages that /aren't/ esolangs
21:57:14 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Ah
21:57:37 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Do you know of any other types of expression besides the traditional arithmetical and x///?
21:57:53 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Not sure exactly what you mean...
21:58:08 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: You know s/// expressions?
21:58:16 <zgrep> Regular expressions?
21:58:20 <hppavilion[1]> (I call them alpha-expressions)
21:58:24 <zgrep> Yes, but I don't know what an expression is...
21:58:27 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Those fall under arithmetical, actually
21:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: An expression is some predefined set of symbols combined with more expressions, basically
21:58:59 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:59:06 <zgrep> Ah. How... how... [insert word here].
21:59:18 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Oh, that's good
22:00:09 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:04:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:08:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun DNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46724 * B jonas * (+3506) Created page with "'''Fuun DNA''' is a self-modifying string-rewriting language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The DNA of the extr..."
22:10:11 -!- boily has joined.
22:10:17 <boily> @metar CYUL
22:10:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 012200Z 27020G27KT 15SM FEW030 FEW045 10/03 A2941 RMK CU1SC2 CU TR SLP963
22:10:24 <boily> @metar ENVA
22:10:24 <lambdabot> ENVA 012150Z 08003KT 9999 SCT045 BKN060 04/M03 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT
22:10:26 -!- earendel has joined.
22:11:34 -!- tromp has joined.
22:13:13 <oerjan> boily: there was snow on the ground this morning
22:13:29 <boily> WE DON'T HAVE SNOW ANYMORE! WE'RE FREE! MWAH AH AH AH AH AH!
22:13:36 * boily knocks on wood
22:13:38 <oerjan> new snow, that is. there's some old in parts.
22:14:20 <Taneb> I haven't seen snow since... last Tuesday
22:14:25 <Taneb> But that was up on some high hills
22:15:38 <boily> Tanelle. there's snow where you are at?
22:15:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:16:35 <shachaf> @metar EGNT
22:16:35 <lambdabot> EGNT 012150Z 18010KT 150V220 9999 SCT023 08/04 Q1007
22:16:50 <Taneb> boily, it was in the Lake District
22:17:06 <boily> @metar KOAK
22:17:06 <lambdabot> KOAK 012153Z 25012KT 10SM FEW025 17/08 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP222 T01670083
22:17:11 <Taneb> The bit of England with things that are almost mountains
22:17:38 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that like the Lake Union district in Seattle?
22:18:06 <shachaf> You did mention something about using Seattle public transit the other day.
22:18:40 <Taneb> I distinctly mentioned not using Seattle public transit
22:21:13 <shachaf> So how do you get around the Lake Union district?
22:21:25 <Phantom_Hoover> this reddit chat thing is pretty cool
22:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fuun RNA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46725 * B jonas * (+1034) Created page with "'''Fuun RNA''' is a graphic description language. It was defined for the task of the ICFP contest 2007 (“Morph Endo”). == Description == The RNA of the extraterrestrial..."
22:21:34 <oerjan> i've used seattle public transit. i think.
22:21:35 <Taneb> shachaf, solid boots
22:21:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the room i ended up in got two pianists who are now playing live
22:22:11 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What's this chat thing?
22:22:15 <shachaf> oerjan: how was it
22:22:22 <shachaf> oerjan: was it before i was born or something
22:22:23 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, it's the button with the bird on it
22:22:40 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Can I find out about it without logging in?
22:22:44 <shachaf> Logging in is scow.
22:22:59 <oerjan> shachaf: were you born in 1996?
22:23:13 <shachaf> no, before
22:23:17 <shachaf> because i'm old :'(
22:23:21 <oerjan> shocking
22:23:35 <shachaf> dinochaf
22:23:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46726&oldid=46722 * B jonas * (+30) + Fuun DNA, RNA
22:24:51 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, not without scraping a bunch of idiots trying to work it out
22:25:23 * boily carbon dates shachaf
22:25:42 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
22:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46727&oldid=46672 * B jonas * (-95)
22:26:10 <shachaf> you can't just carbon date people
22:26:28 <oerjan> of course you can.
22:26:40 <shachaf> oerjan: not more than one at a time, if you're carbonogamous
22:27:07 <oerjan> i think you are switching the wrong part of the word tdnh
22:27:26 <shachaf> look
22:27:35 <shachaf> quantity over quality
22:27:44 <shachaf> i got a pun quota to meet here
22:28:23 <b_jonas> oerjan, ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal has a webchat link to here through qwebirc. I prefer the kiwi irc webchat to qwebirc. Should I replace the webchat link, replace the webchat link but mention qwebirc as an alternative, add a kiwi irc link as an alternative, or do nothing?
22:28:23 <oerjan> well you're doing the pun equivalent of cockney rhyming
22:28:48 <shachaf> oerjan: ok fine
22:28:49 <b_jonas> Note that kiwi irc doesn't require people to fill a captcha, which can be considered either an advantage or a disadvantage.
22:29:04 <shachaf> oerjan: you can only carbon date people if you're carbonogamous
22:29:13 <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete?
22:29:23 <boily> b_jonas: PDA?
22:29:27 <b_jonas> Fuun RNA is not turing complete.
22:29:38 <b_jonas> boily: it's not equivalent to a PDA
22:29:42 <boily> shachaf: the original pun was 0.9 shachafs, but the remastered version... 0.55 shachafs.
22:29:47 <ais523> b_jonas: if there are multiple working webchats you should probably list all of them and put your favourite first
22:29:52 <boily> b_jonas: fuun?
22:30:22 <b_jonas> boily: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Fuun_RNA although that page doesn't tell enough to glaen the computational strength, you have to read the specs
22:30:46 <boily> fungot: glaen?
22:30:46 <fungot> boily: oh yeah?! well you're a funny guy, though.)
22:31:11 <b_jonas> ais523: ok. I'll test if it still works first though.
22:31:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: i thought the one that was listed was freenode's official webchat. they've blocked others on occasion i think.
22:32:01 <oerjan> (well, at least one.)
22:32:18 <shachaf> boily: what's the threshold for a mapoling
22:32:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, qwebirc is what the freenode admins themselves run, and they suggest it on their homepage
22:33:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: as in, freenode runs a qwebirc webchat server itself which lets you connect to freenode
22:33:25 <oerjan> <b_jonas> Do we have a category for a language that is known to be weaker than Turing complete? <-- not a general one, no
22:33:34 <b_jonas> But I prefer kiwiirc. Advantages include that it lets you connect to any irc network.
22:33:35 <ais523> we have specific sub-TC categories
22:33:44 <b_jonas> ais523: right
22:33:45 <ais523> and most sub-TC languages are either in one of them or very very weak
22:34:09 <oerjan> <boily> fungot: glaen? <-- like glean, but you might get a leprechaun curse if you're not careful.
22:34:10 <fungot> oerjan: oh ok. they are comparable. the resistance is useless. it's not all that magical.), tell me
22:34:28 <boily> shachaf: somewhere below 0.5, give or take a few subjective centishachafs.
22:34:48 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:34:49 <shachaf> is this a logarithmic unit or what
22:34:57 <b_jonas> ais523: Fuun RNA is very weak in some sense, yes
22:35:12 <b_jonas> But it has a high constant factor
22:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm gonna make a big file'o buzzwords
22:35:44 -!- lambda-11235 has joined.
22:35:54 <b_jonas> It can be executed in linear amount of memory, but the constant factor is quite high because it involves 600x600 pixel 4 channel 8 bit image canvases.
22:36:03 <boily> shachaf: it's a semilogarithmic one hth
22:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> One that can be used to generate language descriptions automatically. Then I'll make it so Hackego can spit them out
22:36:18 <b_jonas> At least so I think. I'm not quote sure how Fuun RNA works really.
22:36:24 <b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:36:33 <b_jonas> But I'm quite sure it's weaker than turing
22:36:59 <shachaf> boily: how does that work fcir
22:36:59 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
22:37:07 <wob_jonas> Does kiwi webchat work or what?
22:37:14 <b_jonas> wob_jonas: it seems so
22:37:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: linear memory fits the bounded-storage machine category
22:38:25 <boily> shachaf: it's logarithmic for the most part, but then it gets linear for things approaching zero. avoids problems with derivatives and infinite slopes.
22:38:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: which category is that? link?
22:38:49 <oerjan> wait
22:38:53 <b_jonas> ah
22:38:54 <oerjan> it's an unofficial one
22:38:56 <b_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Bounded-storage_machine
22:39:09 <oerjan> the last edit was me trying to get rid of it...
22:39:19 <b_jonas> That doesn't really say what it means, and I'd think it means constant bounded
22:39:28 <wob_jonas> ok, enough of this webchat
22:39:33 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit).
22:39:55 <b_jonas> Fuun RNA works really.
22:39:55 <b_jonas> 003624 < b_jonas> You'd have ot read the specs.
22:40:17 <b_jonas> url is https://kiwiirc.com/client/chat.freenode.net/#esoteric by the way
22:40:37 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
22:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message?
22:41:58 <\oren\> i was born in 1993
22:41:59 -!- woboily has joined.
22:42:14 <woboily> he\\oren\.
22:42:16 <shachaf> boily: 15:40 <shachaf> Oracle deprecated the Java browser plugin this year. :-(
22:42:20 <oerjan> b_jonas: ok you want linear bounded automata
22:42:24 <shachaf> 15:40 <shachaf> javascript more like java's crypt
22:42:33 * boily mapoles shachaf
22:42:37 <shachaf> ok
22:42:40 <shachaf> gotta calibrate this thing
22:42:46 <hppavilion[1]> (That moment when you search for how do do something in bash for HackEgo, but you look up how to do it in HackEgo specifically and thus get no relevant results)
22:42:53 <b_jonas> What's with xkcd today? All it says is “The xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties.” and shows wednesday's comic.
22:43:05 -!- woboily has quit (Client Quit).
22:43:43 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Either the xkcd April 1st comic is currently experiencing technical difficulties, or that's the joke
22:44:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, but Fuun RNA is probably actually weaker than a PDA (I'm not quite sure), and definitely weaker than arbitrary linear bounded machine, probably can be executed in linear time.
22:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> `` cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc 'a-zA-Z0-9' | fold -w 200 | head -n 1
22:44:41 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: that can't be the joke. there have never been a MWF with no strip.
22:44:50 <boily> hppavilion[1]: that feels weird. Randall always had nice Apriljokes.
22:44:50 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Exactly?
22:44:57 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I know...
22:45:01 <HackEgo> Mx6laZBPgxJpUlcgwwSY1G7kHxefQnSM6PVVhkb9G5OJBeDSnhKXXXBMa5v7MnG7SSirBK2SYXdYRZT9lpdeOeOS3YVRWNQ22lY7uFjAjHdf3nMFqs3UqtC6Ob5aH5kTf5bGLDUvKwDq3gJrJdZdPHr8YDxO0dFXH7hFHmiElMFP7vuRXrUUZOYFXQso6I9NSLguieFJ
22:45:06 <b_jonas> And xkcd is never experiencing technical difficulties.
22:45:14 <b_jonas> I think there's probably a comic, it's just well hidden so I can't see it.
22:45:37 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What is the maximum length hackego can send as a message? <-- 350 bytes
22:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> One of my teachers shaved his glorious lumberjack beard, making him look 10 years younger so he could pretend to be a new student at the beginning of class by just sitting at a desk
22:45:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK
22:45:52 <b_jonas> But the problem is, either the explainxkcd.com folks can't see it either, or for some reason they thought the joke of hiding it is funny and don't want to spoil it (yet).
22:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm pondering making `longcat, which prints out multiple messages
22:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, that won't work...
22:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command
22:46:27 <b_jonas> there's a longcat?
22:46:34 <b_jonas> `longcat
22:46:45 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: longcat: not found
22:46:49 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I somehow did that without realizing the pun xD
22:47:04 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, you're "pondering making"
22:47:11 <b_jonas> whew
22:47:13 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: `longcat would be like cat, but it prints multiple messages to show the whole file.
22:47:21 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway, most of the categories are upper bounds, so it's fine to be weaker.
22:47:26 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: yeah, but it doesn't exist
22:47:30 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Which would have potential for abuse
22:47:34 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: we have a command that pastes to a website instead
22:47:37 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: But would also be useful for long HackEgo messages
22:47:52 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The problem is I don't think there's a way to make HackEgo print more than one message
22:48:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: but the wiki says the linear bounded automata is an equivalence actegory, not an upper bound
22:48:59 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Unless HackEgo has some direct-to-IRC command <-- nope.
22:49:01 <b_jonas> anyway, if any of you figure out which category applies (for which you may have to read and ponder the spec very carefully, for it's an esolang so the comp class may not be obvious, even after the definition), and read the wiki descriptions of categories, feel free to add it
22:49:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Didn't think so
22:50:22 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: jevalbot is also bounded output, it won't print more than 6 lines of output per evaluation command (in my default config and in evalj; j-bot has the limit raised to I don't know how many lines)
22:50:52 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: OK
22:51:39 <b_jonas> ] ,.i._65 NB. example
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 64
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 63
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 62
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 61
22:51:39 <evalj> b_jonas: 60
22:51:40 <evalj> b_jonas: ...
22:52:07 <b_jonas> You can print 6 full lines instead of an ellipsis in the sixth line, but you can't print more than six
22:52:12 <Taneb> ...do we have two different bots specifically for evaluating J
22:52:20 <b_jonas> Taneb: no, it's the same bot, two instances
22:52:26 <b_jonas> evalj, source:
22:52:26 <evalj> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: That's even worse
22:52:31 <b_jonas> j-bot, source:
22:52:31 <j-bot> b_jonas, jevalbot source is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/jevalbot.tgz
22:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Why. Why do we have two identical bots?
22:52:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think I was using "bot" to mean "account associated with an instance of a bot"
22:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What is the reason?
22:53:28 <b_jonas> We used to have three different irc bots that can evaluate J, namely besides jevalbot, buubot used to be able to evaluate it (I wrote the J evaluator plugin myself), plus NotJack had a bot he wrote in J.
22:53:56 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: evalj is my instance but I don't run it constantly, only very occasionally start it up and then stop it within a day when I turn off my home computer
22:53:59 <Taneb> Can EgoBot? If not, why not?
22:54:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: it would probably be possible to install a J interpreter to hackego
22:54:33 <hppavilion[1]> I can't get my IRC client to work for some reason...
22:54:34 <b_jonas> we could even do it as a user
22:54:42 <b_jonas> but it would output only 1 line per command of course
22:55:08 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
22:58:00 <Taneb> I'm heading to bed now
22:58:02 <Taneb> Goodnight!
22:59:28 <boily> bonne tanuitb!
22:59:37 <shachaf> @time Taneb
22:59:40 <shachaf> @tineb
22:59:51 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:02:35 <boily> @localtime Taneb
23:02:46 <boily> darn. no CTCP.
23:02:50 <boily> @localtime shachaf
23:02:52 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Fri Apr 1 16:02:50 2016
23:10:58 <zgrep> @localtime lambdabot
23:10:58 <lambdabot> I live on the internet, do you expect me to have a local time?
23:11:02 <zgrep> Yes.
23:11:22 <zgrep> @localtime zgrep
23:11:24 <zgrep> @localtime zgrep
23:11:25 <lambdabot> Local time for zgrep is Fri, 01 Apr 2016 23:11:25 GMT
23:11:31 <zgrep> Heh.
23:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NetBytes]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46728 * Iconmaster * (+4415) Created page with "'''NetBytes''' is a language created by [[User:iconmaster]] in [[:Category:2016|2016]]. It severely limits the available memory and program length of programs, instead requir..."
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23:20:06 <iconmaster> Well, it's been years, but I'm finally making another esolang.
23:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> iconmaster: Cool!
23:20:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Iconmaster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46729&oldid=46719 * Iconmaster * (+64)
23:21:25 <iconmaster> So, what's been going on here lately?
23:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> iconmaster: Nothing much
23:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
23:23:39 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, my IRC client won't connect properly. It times out
23:23:45 <hppavilion[1]> I have a setup to handle PINGs
23:23:54 <hppavilion[1]> But I get an ERROR eventualy
23:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> s/l/ll/
23:26:16 <boily> ELLOL.
23:26:59 <iconmaster> Ellol to you too!
23:27:50 <hppavilion[1]> First issue I found: No \r\n
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23:38:01 <hppavilion[1]> YES
23:38:03 <hppavilion[1]> IT WORKED
23:39:20 <boily> hppavellon[t]!
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23:39:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It can't chat yet
23:39:35 <hppavilion[1]> boily: But it receives
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23:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> Test
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23:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> Retest
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23:42:07 <hppavilion[1]> Testing, testing, 123
23:42:18 <hppavilion[1]> YES!
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23:42:38 <hppavilion[1]> That's enough testing on this channel
23:42:51 <boily> you lack ambition. test more! FOR SCIENCE!
23:43:22 <hppavilion[1]> boily: *Fine*
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23:43:45 <boily> :D
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23:46:36 <quintopia> helloily
23:47:41 <boily> quinthellopia.
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23:51:31 <rdococ> bulan
23:51:52 <prooftechnique> hellodococ
23:52:48 <quintopia> what haps today
23:53:34 <prooftechnique> Does HackEgo evaluate underload?
23:54:08 <int-e> ^ul didn't this?
23:54:09 <fungot> ...bad insn!
23:54:25 <prooftechnique> Oh, fungot, what won't you do?
23:54:25 <fungot> prooftechnique: hm. that's not hardcore enough for you... but unfortunately, regardless of whether i _think_ i want a glass of merlot.
23:54:36 <prooftechnique> ^ul (test string)::**
23:55:16 <prooftechnique> Hmm
23:55:41 <prooftechnique> ^ul (test string)::**S
23:55:41 <fungot> test stringtest stringtest string
23:55:45 <prooftechnique> There we go
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