←2016-06-25 2016-06-26 2016-06-27→ ↑2016 ↑all
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01:00:09 <oerjan> goily utc midnight
01:00:52 <boily> ahbingadonça.
01:01:30 <boily> terjane õhtust.
01:02:22 <oerjan> AAAAAAAA
01:03:19 <oerjan> oh darn i should have said my guess before googling
01:03:34 <oerjan> (estonian)
01:04:11 <boily> («ahbingadonça» → «ah bien regarde donc ça» → “oh, would you look at that”)
01:04:36 <oerjan> ah. french written in the proper polysynthetic spelling
01:04:48 <boily> *ding*(õ)
01:06:18 <boily> /'äbɛ̃gædɔ̃sɑ/
01:07:08 <boily> meanwhile, trying to learn how to pronounce Korean correctly.
01:07:16 <oerjan> http://www.academia.edu/2000636/Grammaticalization_of_polysynthesis_with_special_reference_to_Spoken_French_
01:07:38 <boily> for the most part, it's quite manageable, but then you trip up on arythmic consonant cluster that fungot you up your way through a word.
01:07:51 <boily> ooooh, shiny!
01:10:34 <oerjan> (it was the first google hit for french polysynthesis)
01:12:49 <oerjan> (of course that's a pretty disputed theory)
01:16:04 <boily> that "article" reads like notes taken during a class.
01:16:58 <boily> I doubt that the argument that French is polysynthetic is valid.
01:17:10 <oerjan> *sad trombone*
01:17:22 <oerjan> maybe just spoken québécois then?
01:18:05 <boily> that may be the case.
01:18:37 <boily> verb groups tend to suffer from the greatest mangulation.
01:19:06 <boily> “he was holding her” → «yatnè»
01:19:27 <boily> (of course, this is extremely colloquial and must be taken with an artery-clogging grain of salt.)
01:20:45 -!- Etaoin has joined.
01:20:53 <Etaoin> hello
01:21:09 <boily> Hetalloin.
01:22:23 <oerjan> Good evetaoining
01:23:25 <Etaoin> oh you're here :D
01:23:31 <Etaoin> I just pm'd you haha
01:23:36 <boily> one example from wikipédia that, with some creativity, supports French polysynthesis: “she opened the door for him again” → «ayarouveraporte»
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01:27:23 <quintopia> helloily
01:27:33 <quintopia> how goes the drinking
01:27:59 <boily> tonight is dry.
01:28:44 <quintopia> the whole thing? like...until it's over?
01:29:31 <boily> eh? I'm just not imbibing any alcohol today.
01:29:50 <quintopia> why?
01:31:32 <quintopia> well back to the party
01:31:43 <boily> I may have woke up with a fiery headache...
01:31:50 * boily pokes quintopia in the party bits :D
01:32:35 <Etaoin> anyone know why I can't get drunk? since we're talking about drinking
01:35:56 <shachaf> `wisdom
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01:36:33 <HackEgo> pidgin//The pidgin hole principle states that if n+1 messages are sent over n protocols, then at least two messages are sent over the same protocol.
01:36:58 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/pidgin
01:37:21 <HackEgo> int-e int-e int-e int-e
01:37:43 <boily> Etaoin: because you shouldn't aim for that hth
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01:38:05 <shachaf> int-e: Why not the usual meaning of "pidgin"?
01:38:17 <Etaoin> I really don't aim for it, just a thing I noticed
01:38:37 <shachaf> `wisdom
01:38:40 <HackEgo> bezout's theorem//Bézout's theorem says that if a system of polynomial equations over the complexes has as many variables as equations, then in the general case the number of solutions it has is equal to the product of one less than the degrees of the polynomials.
01:38:47 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/beout's theorem
01:38:54 <HackEgo> No output.
01:38:57 <boily> Etaoin: well, drink responsibly and eat lots of poutine to soak up excesses!
01:39:02 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/bezout's theorem
01:39:14 <HackEgo> b_jonas
01:39:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: What's wisdomy about that?
01:39:55 <shachaf> Classic b_jonas entry.
01:40:05 <boily> the wisdom of a wisdom is its own wisdom.
01:40:18 <boily> Etaoin: have you ever poutined?
01:41:03 <Etaoin> what's that?
01:41:45 <boily> poutine: French fries, cheese curds, poutine gravy.
01:42:11 <shachaf> Are they French fries even in Canada?
01:43:24 <boily> hmm... good question...
01:43:26 <Etaoin> well I have eaten them but what does that have to do with getting smashed
01:43:51 <boily> perfect post-night-out meal. it magically tastes better at 3am.
01:44:14 <shachaf> boily: Is that why the local poutine place closes at 4?
01:44:28 <shachaf> Unfortunately the vegetarian poutine I've had was kind of scow.
01:44:30 <shachaf> scowtine
01:44:48 <oerjan> i'm guessing the québécois will call their language french long after it's mutually unintelligible with the metropolitans
01:45:40 <boily> shachaf: the most well-known place is 24/7.
01:46:00 <boily> our French is Frencher than their French, bon!
01:46:03 <shachaf> The only place I know here is Smoke's poutinerie.
01:46:31 <Etaoin> do you pronounce croissant the french or english way?
01:46:44 <boily> French.
01:46:59 <Etaoin> I want to go to a bakery and overpronounce the shit out of "croissant"
01:47:06 <oerjan> kroasang
01:47:17 <shachaf> `? misspellings of corissant
01:47:19 <shachaf> oops
01:47:20 <HackEgo> misspellings of corissant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:47:22 <shachaf> `? misspellings of corissant
01:47:23 <HackEgo> misspellings of corissant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:47:25 <shachaf> ugh
01:47:33 <shachaf> i'll blame my fingers here
01:47:34 <shachaf> `? misspellings of croissant
01:47:36 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:47:49 <oerjan> shachaf: you're like, ruining the joke tdnh
01:47:54 <Etaoin> are there any english people not in the eu here?
01:47:56 <shachaf> oerjan: i know :'(
01:48:13 <boily> Etaoin: please precise "English".
01:48:21 <Etaoin> from england
01:48:27 <shachaf> Engs?
01:48:29 <\oren\> what would cause hexchat to take >1GB ram?
01:48:32 <oerjan> . o O ( slightly tempted to add a noodly special case for that one now )
01:48:47 <shachaf> \oren\: All programs take >1GB RAM now.
01:48:51 <shachaf> It's just how software is written.
01:48:55 <zzo38> Why you should get drunk? In general is bad idea and my recommendation is to don't get drunk
01:48:59 <boily> Eclipse is the New Emacs.
01:49:02 <shachaf> A single Google+ tab in my browser takes >1GB RAM.
01:49:11 <Etaoin> if your program doesn't take >1gb ram it's either not made in java or it's a toy program
01:49:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Why is it bad idea?
01:49:15 <boily> *gasp* someone uses google+!
01:49:19 <\oren\> cwasaw
01:49:46 * boily mapoles \oren\. "you're Canadian. you should know better! you bring disgrace to our families and ancestors!"
01:49:48 <shachaf> boily: Well, I try not to.
01:49:52 <\oren\> as in, I went to the bakery and got a delicious chocolate cwasaw
01:50:08 <Etaoin> koason
01:50:21 <Etaoin> kyoso
01:50:24 * boily wildly mapoles random miscroissanters
01:50:40 <Etaoin> O Canada! Our home and native land! True patriot love in all thy sons command. With glowing hearts we see thee rise, The True North strong and free! From far and wide, O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. God keep our land glorious and free! O Canada, we stand on guard for thee. O Canada, we stand on guard for thee.
01:50:56 <zzo38> I have read that in French the words are different
01:51:15 <shachaf> zzo38: Some people get drunk because they enjoy it.
01:51:22 <oerjan> <\oren\> what would cause hexchat to take >1GB ram? <-- is it actually used or just virtually allocated? some programs have started allocating massive address space from the start (see: most recent GHC)
01:51:25 <zzo38> (I don't know what they are, but apparently they involve more Christianity and more swords)
01:51:27 <shachaf> zzo38: Why do you want them to deny themselves the pleasure of being drunk?
01:51:34 <boily> Ô Canada! Terre de nos aïeux! Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux! ♪
01:51:36 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you speak French?
01:51:58 <zzo38> No I don't speak French, I just read in the news that the French Canadian anthem is different
01:51:58 <shachaf> Anyway the Russian anthem is the best one.
01:52:04 <shachaf> So you might as well scrap the rest.
01:52:07 <oerjan> . o O ( you should get properly drunk _once_, so you know to avoid it. )
01:52:19 <shachaf> zzo38: I thought you were Canadian?
01:52:22 <zzo38> shachaf: It is recommendation not to get drunk, it is not a requirement
01:52:23 <\oren\> ee say portay la kwa
01:52:39 <zzo38> Yes I am Canadian but I am not very good at French.
01:52:55 <Etaoin> I genuinely cannot get drunk tho
01:53:03 <Etaoin> no matter how much I drink
01:53:16 <zzo38> (If I was working in government, I would try to learn French better so that I can know both English and French, but I do not work in the government and do not intend to.)
01:53:17 <Etaoin> I can get alcohol poisoning and die?
01:53:34 <Etaoin> if that counts as getting absolutely smashed
01:53:37 <boily> Etaoin: pretty much so, yes.
01:53:40 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you work outside government?
01:54:02 <zzo38> What do you think?
01:54:16 <shachaf> I thought not, but I didn't know.
01:55:03 <zzo38> I will not write the answer
01:55:13 <Etaoin> you're not worthy of an answer
01:55:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> Anyway the Russian anthem is the best one. <-- i dunno i have a weak spot for the german one too.
01:56:28 <Etaoin> isn't the swedish anthem basically abba?
01:56:31 <Etaoin> or young lean?
01:57:20 <oerjan> Etaoin: no, although the swedish anthem is also nice.
01:57:36 <Etaoin> that's honestly kind of disappointing
01:58:01 <Etaoin> imagine at the start of every football game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFrGuyw1V8s
01:59:02 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ4rpH4wLMQ that author comment is _so_ swedish (you can imagine what happened in the comments before he closed them)
01:59:39 <Etaoin> zlatan singing "dancing queen only seventeen"
01:59:50 <oerjan> ("Please grasp that I'm not racist, I'm communist"
01:59:52 <oerjan> )
02:00:21 <Etaoin> communism isn't half bad honestly
02:00:28 <Etaoin> people are though
02:00:38 <oerjan> basically, in sweden you cannot upload the national anthem to youtube without being accused of racism
02:00:57 * oerjan is norwegian not swedish btw
02:01:00 <shachaf> I've been reading a few capitalism propaganda books.
02:01:03 <Etaoin> have you seen the picture of the most commonly learned language in europe on duolingo?
02:01:18 <shachaf> Capitalism is TG.
02:01:21 <Etaoin> most are english/german
02:01:24 <shachaf> But it's also a mess.
02:01:28 <Etaoin> in sweden it's swedish
02:01:44 <oerjan> Etaoin: ha
02:02:24 <oerjan> i doubt that even with all the immigrants, swedish would beat english as second language there...
02:02:55 <Etaoin> not sure if it was official or a meme sadly
02:03:00 <oerjan> (assuming that _everyone_ learns english, like in other nordic countries)
02:03:16 <Etaoin> everyone knows english in sweden is the stereotype
02:03:35 <Etaoin> there's a person called Alcest in the chat, you like the band or just the word?
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02:03:56 <Etaoin> is it random or is it the band
02:03:59 <Etaoin> because it's a great band
02:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> "It should work if your browser supports HTML" --Me
02:05:06 <Etaoin> sounds like something you'd say condescendingly to someone being stupid tbh
02:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: I said it to someone whose computer refuses to install Flash (It's a linux box, so it's not like they're just a massive idiot)
02:05:51 <oerjan> i don't think Alcest is physically present now. e doesn't speak much, anyway.
02:06:24 <oerjan> lots of lurkers here.
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02:07:45 <Etaoin> you sure flash only uses html? pretty sure a browser/os have to support flash for it to work
02:07:55 <Etaoin> but getting flash to work on linux can get weird
02:08:49 <oerjan> i assume hppavilion[1] meant the page doesn't need flash
02:09:59 <Etaoin> I understood it as saying flash should work if the browser supports HTML
02:10:23 <oerjan> i don't think hppavilion[1] is that cluecless.
02:10:47 <boily> `? hppavilion[1]
02:10:50 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Yeah, no
02:10:50 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
02:11:08 <Etaoin> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
02:11:27 <Etaoin> oh now I get it !
02:11:28 <Etaoin> !!!
02:11:39 <Etaoin> boy I'm slow
02:11:53 <boily> `learn_append hppavilion[1] No es tan cluecless.
02:12:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'hppavilion[1]': hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe. No es tan cluecless.
02:12:42 <boily> one day, we'll harpoon a South American, keep them in the chännel, grow them, and make them correct the Spanish bits of the Great Wisdom.
02:14:00 <Etaoin> is there a bot that translates a given string into brainfuck code that prints it?
02:14:10 <Etaoin> that'd be.. useful?
02:14:15 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Not a bot IIRC, but there are some sites
02:14:22 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Wait, I think fungot might have a command for that
02:14:22 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i think it refers to _code_, not of syntax for people that work on every rfc-compliant ircds
02:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> ^help
02:14:24 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
02:14:37 <hppavilion[1]> boily: And they'll be able to explain to other south americans that we aren't here to explain canaima
02:14:54 <hppavilion[1]> ^texttobf
02:15:43 <fizzie> The de-facto standard is "bf_textgen" (or various names like that), a genetic programming dealie.
02:15:51 <fizzie> It used to be installed in EgoBot, but of course that is no more.
02:15:55 <fizzie> It might be in the port.
02:15:58 <Etaoin> why not :(
02:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> Why do I always try to derive meaning from fungot? We all know fungot never says anything of meaning; that'd give fnem away
02:16:33 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: you made him sad! :p. ugh i need to install
02:16:45 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, wow, that was scary
02:17:03 <shachaf> fungot is tg
02:17:03 <fungot> shachaf: i was thinking he was framed in frantic too. of course, the even worse thing about the course is to allow fnord to work with cygwin.
02:17:05 <boily> hppavilion[1]: don't encourage fungot hth
02:17:05 <fungot> boily: how can you expect, " freestanding" means that the language only. ah well
02:17:15 <hppavilion[1]> The first statement sounded like Etaoin and the second sounded like the person I'm actively talking to who doesn't have flash
02:17:15 <fizzie> `! bf_textgen walrus
02:17:19 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/bf_textgen: not found
02:17:27 <fizzie> Er, right, the name was different.
02:17:29 <fizzie> `! bf_txtgen walrus
02:17:38 <shachaf> fungot: "freestanding" means the language only? Very true.
02:17:38 <fungot> shachaf: except for using os x? meaning via mouse? use a keyboard :p.
02:17:45 <shachaf> I agree completely.
02:17:51 <HackEgo> 72 ++++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>-.>+.>.++++++.+++.--. [423]
02:17:59 <fizzie> ^bf ++++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>+++++++++><<<<-]>-.>+.>.++++++.+++.--.
02:17:59 <fungot> walrus
02:18:04 <fizzie> There you go.
02:18:11 <fizzie> Except it wasn't *that* slow when installed in EgoBot.
02:18:28 <Etaoin> OH
02:18:33 <Etaoin> B O O M
02:18:36 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Seriously, you didn't give fungot the input as a parameter, did you?
02:18:36 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: a srfi can't specify a violation of privacy.). can someone spoon-feed me the require line above just installed in /.plt-scheme/ planet/
02:18:47 <shachaf> fizzie: why is HackEgo so slow tdnh
02:18:52 <fizzie> It's also far from optimal. As you can maybe tell from "><" already.
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02:19:09 * boily ties fungot and HackEgo together to see what will happen
02:19:09 <fungot> boily: quite the contrary: undefined operations add a little bit.
02:19:12 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Why don't we just pipe it through a s/<>// filter?
02:19:23 <boily> oh yeah, interbot undefined operations baby...
02:19:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Because it would be such a minor win.
02:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> Well, that /could/ mess up when <> is the first occurence of > in the program
02:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> Depending on how the interpreter works- whether it just ignores < at the home position
02:20:00 <fizzie> I thought you meant s/><// actually.
02:20:11 <fizzie> I don't think it's possible for bf_txtgen to generate a <>.
02:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Yes, that too, but I accidentally typed <> first and didn't feel like reaching /all the way/ to my backspace key
02:20:31 <fizzie> It has a very strict format for the program it generates.
02:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: But anyway
02:20:38 <Etaoin> is it possible to get fungot to say fungot?
02:20:38 <fungot> Etaoin: yes. it parses it into an interpreter session and type ( load " foo.scm") doesn't seem to be baffled by curly braces in the bnf, but it
02:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> You're playing a dangerous game, fizzie
02:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Yes
02:20:59 <Etaoin> does it start talking to itself?
02:21:01 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: But it won't respond, because the IRC server doesn't send you your own messages
02:21:06 <Etaoin> aw
02:21:17 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: The only reason they appear in your client is because the client adds them for convenience
02:21:23 <Etaoin> what about adding another bot that'll try to talk to it every few hours
02:21:33 <hppavilion[1]> `? botlop
02:21:35 <HackEgo> botlops are the core of botsentiences. Sapience is scheduled for the next release.
02:21:48 <Etaoin> yeah I know how it works I've made chat clients ^_^
02:21:50 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: It's been done
02:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: But please, feel free to try to make one- it's tradition
02:22:09 <Etaoin> of course it has :D I just wanna see these in action
02:22:36 <fizzie> There's some amount of botloop avoidance logic in many bots.
02:22:40 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Note: Botlopping doesn't count if you make the bot (unless you already made it and want to see if there's a part that lets you botlop)
02:23:05 <fizzie> HackEgo adds some invisible Unicode if the message starts with [^a-z] (approximately), and fungot has a built-in ignore list of nicks it ignores completely.
02:23:05 <fungot> fizzie: all those dotted lines are hard on my eyes... so, it's not a
02:23:08 <fizzie> ^ignore
02:23:08 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot|termbot)!
02:23:46 <Etaoin> why are these built in though?
02:23:46 <hppavilion[1]> ^add-ignore DonaldTrump
02:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: So it doesn't botlop
02:24:15 <Etaoin> how is botlopping a bad thing :(
02:24:18 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: And it'd be hard to add a feature to make it so you can add an ignore
02:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: It's fun for exactly 3 revolutions, then it gets annoyying
02:24:42 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Remember, fungot is literally written in Befunge-98
02:24:42 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: that is ( to humans) obviously not very useful unless you know what one i stopped at then
02:24:45 <Etaoin> I suppose that's a fair point
02:25:32 <hppavilion[1]> (that's not even a piece of #esoteric jokelore; fungot is actually written in Befunge-98, and the code is public)
02:25:33 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: mer espoo/ olari visitation now; away. the impossible takes a little time to understand it, so
02:25:44 <Etaoin> I trust you dw :D
02:26:03 <Etaoin> how are they implemented though? I mean where do they run?
02:26:07 <hppavilion[1]> https://github.com/fis/fungot
02:26:07 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: what happens if you invoke a full continuation, because it has none. :p)
02:26:31 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, the last commit to fungot's repo was made in 2013
02:26:31 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: it is a case of weird dos font? that's even worse
02:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: I assume on a server somewhere in Canada
02:26:54 <Etaoin> do you purposefully keep saying fungot just to invoke fungot
02:26:55 <fungot> Etaoin: the specs asked for meters or centimeters wide use.... make an interpreter for
02:27:04 <fizzie> I haven't been doing much fungot development lately.
02:27:05 <fungot> fizzie: ok. i'll stick to the standard ( which it does the same? ( roughly that amount of bits
02:27:07 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: No, I don't purposely say fungot
02:27:07 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: isn't you also oklopol? i dont see what the optimization does to the code during execution
02:27:14 <hppavilion[1]> Why would I want to invoke fungot?
02:27:15 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: a few crappy ones use boehm's gc. it's as good as newlisp. any number of strings can be ordered by internet. that's so, eh, cheap enough
02:27:19 <hppavilion[1]> Fungot is fun for a bit
02:27:23 <Etaoin> I don't fungotting know
02:27:24 <fungot> Etaoin: that too. :) in fact, to me
02:27:24 <hppavilion[1]> But then fungot just gets annoying
02:27:24 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: think " c preprocessor on steroids" for me in c and use http://www.toreun.org/ eso.zip is the latest ' unofficial' release, from november of last year)
02:28:00 <hppavilion[1]> OK, wow, that was an interesting response
02:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> The Funge who must Not be Named, when fnis creator said e hadn't been doing much development on fnim, told em (the creator) that fne would just stick to the standard- the code for the bot
02:29:26 <fizzie> As for where it runs physically, in a cfunge interpreter on a box about one and a half metres left of my feet.
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02:29:38 <Etaoin> but it does actually have to run on a server?
02:29:50 <Etaoin> it's not possible to have it float in the ether somewhere
02:30:17 <fizzie> Unfortunately, freenode doesn't yet support free-floating blobs of Befunge for some reason.
02:30:41 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a programming language that uses X5O!P%@AP[4\PZX54(P^)7CC)7}$EICAR-STANDARD-ANTIVIRUS-TEST-FILE!$H+H* as a program? One where all programs necessarily look like viruses but aren't?
02:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> (well, except those that are)
02:31:14 <hppavilion[1]> Or, well, maybe it doesn't need the EICAR as a program, but it still has to always look like a virus
02:31:16 <fizzie> (HackEgo runs on the same machine as the esolangs.org wiki.)
02:31:27 <Etaoin> oh on a more serious note, is it possible to design a language in which it's syntactically incorrect to write a non halting program?
02:31:29 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: And the forum on the same domain
02:31:40 <fizzie> That doesn't really "run".
02:31:43 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Yes, that's actually a class of language
02:31:54 <Etaoin> I'd love to see that!
02:31:56 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Total Functional Programming, where you can only write halting programs
02:32:05 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: It's actually a field that I think is gaining some traction
02:32:26 <hppavilion[1]> TFP or the better variant where you can write non-halting programs, but only when it's provable that they're non-halting
02:32:45 <Etaoin> I'd prefer the former variant honestly
02:32:59 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-screamed
02:32:59 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
02:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> @messages-proud
02:33:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 3h 16m 5s ago: <hppavilion[1]> In a 4D universe, would we have 2D roads? <-- if you consider 4d to include relativistic spacetime, we already do hth
02:33:05 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 1h 24m 12s ago: grep has a -r option hth
02:33:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: DAMN YOU!
02:33:40 <hppavilion[1]> </damning>
02:34:26 <Etaoin> aren't roads 2d by default?
02:34:45 <oerjan> *-c dammit
02:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: ...yes, but not "really" 2D
02:35:05 <hppavilion[1]> They're 2D the same way paper is 3D, basically
02:36:21 <Etaoin> as an objection to oerjan's response, wouldn't string theory require the universe to be >12D?
02:37:38 <Etaoin> haskell isn't total functional? right?
02:38:57 <Etaoin> wouldn't f _ = f 3 non halting?
02:40:51 <fizzie> f = f equally much.
02:41:02 <fizzie> > let f = f in f
02:41:06 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
02:44:09 <Etaoin> can someone give me an example of a total functional language?
02:45:56 <fizzie> BlooP.
02:47:16 <Etaoin> can the busy beaver be implemented in these languages?
02:49:27 <fizzie> (Well, maybe BlooP isn't. I'm not entirely sure what the exact definition for "total functional" is. But it's the canonical example language that only allows programs that halt.)
02:49:58 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: DAMN YOU! <-- please don't damn people it disturbs ais523 hth
02:50:44 <oerjan> Etaoin: System F hth
02:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: It isn't
02:51:33 <shachaf> oerjan: It does?
02:51:44 <Etaoin> I'm def gonna have a ton of these silly questions in the future
02:51:45 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Almost certainly, but not really
02:51:54 <oerjan> Etaoin: these languages aren't even turing-complete, because then you'd have solved the halting problem.
02:52:00 <oerjan> shachaf: yep
02:52:07 <Etaoin> I know they aren't turing complete
02:52:08 <shachaf> oerjan: does it disturb you
02:52:15 <oerjan> shachaf: slightly.
02:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: You can't *really* implement busy beaver in these because, by their nature, you can always make a longer-running program
02:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: And thus you can always make a program that leaves more cells on 1
02:52:43 <Etaoin> but wouldn't it be impossible to implement the variations that don't halt?
02:53:08 <Etaoin> basically anything we don't know if it halts could be tested in such a language, right?
02:53:13 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Yes?
02:53:38 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: No, you can't put anything in that language to see if it halts
02:53:51 <Etaoin> why not? sorry if it's a stupid question
02:53:59 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Because even things we do know don't halt won't halt in this language- or, more accurately, aren't implementable
02:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> s/won't/will/
02:54:44 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: In a language where all programs must halt, how would you implement a truth machine?
02:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> Since you can't, you can't plug in a program to see if it will halt
02:55:13 <Etaoin> well that's my point, if it isn't implementable then it definitely doesn't halt
02:55:27 <hppavilion[1]> Though, I suppose you could argue this forms a valid strategy- oh, that's what I was about to say
02:55:28 <oerjan> Etaoin: any total language must leave some halting problems unimplementable, because otherwise you could again solve the halting problem by trying to convert to it.
02:55:40 <Etaoin> basically something that would be like "Syntax error at line 34: would make the algorithm non halting"
02:55:45 <oerjan> *halting programs
02:55:46 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Well, what about programs that do halt but aren't implementable?
02:55:56 <Etaoin> are there such?
02:56:00 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: That would just be a solution to the halting problem
02:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: These languages don't syntactically prohibit non-halting, they just are impossible to make non-halting
02:56:52 <Etaoin> I was asking for the former in the beginning, I suppose that's a nonsensical question now that I think about it
02:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
02:57:21 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: In theory you could kind of make something like that? But it wouldn't really be useful
02:57:38 <Etaoin> yeah the compiler would basically have to solve the halting problem on any program, right?
03:01:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:02:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
03:07:06 <quintopia> Etaoin: getting drunk is great and the reason you cant get drunk is you didnt drink enough booze. some people just metabolize it far faster
03:07:40 <Etaoin> I don't know man I can chug a lot of it without any effect but I will conduct and experiment soon!
03:09:03 <quintopia> zzo38: the reason yo get drunk is ... all the best beverages are alcohiolic, and once youve had one, why stop?
03:09:21 -!- bender__ has joined.
03:09:48 <quintopia> Etaoin: what did you drink? shots? beer?
03:10:45 <Etaoin> tequila
03:10:46 <Etaoin> vodka
03:10:52 <Etaoin> stuff like that
03:11:00 <Etaoin> I do enjoy cider though
03:11:13 <Etaoin> but those are the ones I'd try to drink to get drunk
03:11:35 <Etaoin> oh and gin
03:12:33 <quintopia> hmm. do you like ale or wine?
03:12:57 <Etaoin> I'm allergic to wine so have a guess ^^
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03:24:50 <quintopia> oh thats too bad
03:25:00 <quintopia> gnight
03:26:21 <Etaoin> https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/c+-.html
03:26:25 <Etaoin> just found out about this
03:30:49 <oerjan> `file quines/c
03:30:52 <HackEgo> quines/c: C source, ASCII text
03:31:18 <oerjan> `` gcc -x c quines/c
03:31:38 <HackEgo> No output.
03:31:48 <oerjan> `` ./a.out
03:31:49 <HackEgo> ​#include <stdio.h> \ int main(){char*s="#include <stdio.h>%cint main(){char*s=%c%s%c;printf(s,10,34,s,34,10);}%c";printf(s,10,34,s,34,10);}
03:31:56 <oerjan> `` mv a.out quines/c
03:32:01 <HackEgo> No output.
03:33:27 <Etaoin> that's actually really cool
03:33:47 <oerjan> what is
03:35:15 <Etaoin> the thing you just did
03:35:57 <pikhq_> It's kinda a cute little quine.
03:35:58 <oerjan> it used to be like that, but today someone switched out with a new version just in text.
03:36:10 <Etaoin> https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/error-haiku.html
03:36:13 <oerjan> *it out
03:36:32 <Etaoin> wait just a sec
03:36:36 <pikhq_> Though I tend to prefer explicit declarations over an #include for stuff like that.
03:36:42 <pikhq_> (makes it a nice one-liner)
03:38:31 <Etaoin> what's the language called that uses "human interpreters" in this irc?
03:39:05 <Etaoin> ah IRP
03:39:18 <Etaoin> http://esolangs.org/wiki/IRP#99_bottles
03:39:32 <Etaoin> gf gave me a shirt with this printed on it 2 years ago
03:39:38 <oerjan> aww
03:39:43 <Etaoin> in glorious courier
03:40:07 <oerjan> wait, including the GregorR?
03:40:10 <Etaoin> is memonic an actual user?
03:40:13 <Etaoin> yes
03:40:20 <oerjan> i don't know
03:40:23 <Etaoin> I'll take pics when it's out of the wash
03:40:28 <Etaoin> if you want
03:40:42 <oerjan> it's probably old, maybe fizzie remembers
03:40:58 <Etaoin> does fungot remember
03:40:58 <fungot> Etaoin: please remember that. what is lisp in small pieces right fnord that anything like eopl? how does one make thunks useful?
03:41:47 <Etaoin> not sure if that's a yes
03:41:54 <Etaoin> though that might be undecidable
03:42:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
03:42:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
03:44:03 <quintopia> the existence of a user named mnemonic predates my arrival on irc
03:44:59 -!- jonne_ has joined.
03:45:30 <quintopia> *memonic
03:46:38 <coppro> mnemonic is correct though
03:46:50 <Etaoin> sadly not the username they used
03:48:42 <hppavilion[1]> I want to be a good wikipedian- like the proper zealots who are overinvested in Wikipedia- but I rarely see something in need of edits. Halp.
03:49:33 <Etaoin> learn an unused language and translate everything to that language?
03:51:22 <pikhq_> I'm not sure why, but I went and tinkered with that quine a bit and made it charset-independent...
03:52:08 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: fashion
03:52:12 <coppro> fashion articles are *abysmal*
03:52:29 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: And me editing them would only make it worse
03:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> Etaoin: Is there an esperanto wikipedia?
03:52:53 <Etaoin> yep
03:53:09 <Etaoin> extremely well detailed too
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03:53:46 <Etaoin> I.. I mean just detailed
03:53:52 <Etaoin> well detailed isn't a phrase
03:53:57 <Etaoin> yet
03:54:00 <hppavilion[1]> Yes there is
03:54:14 <hppavilion[1]> And a Lojban one
03:55:49 <hppavilion[1]> If a second language is an L2, what's an LΩ
03:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, should I learn Esperanto or Lojban?
03:57:15 <Etaoin> croatian
03:57:30 <oerjan> nah no one speaks croatian
03:57:33 * oerjan runs away
03:57:44 <Etaoin> I'm croatian :(
03:57:44 <jonne_> dobar vam dan svima
03:57:56 <Etaoin> the language, not the nationality
03:58:09 <oerjan> what, there are _two_ croatians here?
03:58:19 <oerjan> Etaoin: why do you think i ran away
03:58:32 <Etaoin> that may or may not be the gf I mentioned some time ago
03:58:36 <oerjan> aha
03:58:43 <oerjan> good taste in t-shirts
03:58:46 <jonne_> i know
03:58:59 <Etaoin> we all have 6 character nicks
03:59:11 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq.
03:59:13 <pikhq> Fixed
03:59:13 <Etaoin> our messages are so nicely alligned, right fungot
03:59:13 <fungot> Etaoin: it's not deterministic
03:59:15 <oerjan> the one true nick length, right myndzi
03:59:30 <shachaf> hikhq_
03:59:34 <Etaoin> ban pikhq
04:00:58 <oerjan> i cannot, he works at google
04:01:13 <oerjan> the repercursions are too scary
04:01:15 <jonne_> does he work in the googleplex
04:01:17 <Etaoin> he outranks us all
04:01:36 <oerjan> jonne_: i don't know
04:01:46 <jonne_> tough crowd
04:01:53 <oerjan> Etaoin: well except fizzie
04:02:05 <Etaoin> fizzie works at googleplex?
04:02:16 <oerjan> no, but he is also an op hth
04:02:53 <oerjan> (i assume googleplex is that mountain view place, and fizzie is in london)
04:03:09 <Etaoin> googleplex is a number larger than google hth
04:03:30 <Etaoin> the mountain view place is google [x]
04:03:30 <oerjan> you're thinking of googol hth
04:04:01 <Etaoin> yes google is inspired by 80s scifi
04:04:09 <coppro> googoglplex is the number, googleplex is the campus
04:04:20 <Etaoin> is it actually called googleplex?
04:04:25 <coppro> yes
04:04:30 <Etaoin> that's genuinely amazing
04:04:49 <Etaoin> I'm just marveling at how hilarious computer people are today
04:05:50 <Etaoin> oh god
04:05:56 <Etaoin> google x changed their name to just "x"
04:06:03 <jonne_> i've told you it was called googleplex months ago
04:06:11 <Etaoin> https://www.solveforx.com/
04:06:14 <jonne_> i'm disappointed
04:06:20 <jonne_> and sort of jealous you got to relive that realization
04:06:22 <jonne_> for free
04:06:26 <oerjan> i think it's common knowledge that boyfriends don't listen hth
04:06:51 <Etaoin> nothing coppro says is free afaik
04:07:42 <Etaoin> Projects that X has considered and rejected include a space elevator, which was deemed to be currently infeasible;[28] a hoverboard, which was determined to be too costly relative to the societal benefits;[29] a user-safe jetpack, which was thought to be too loud and energy-wasting;[30] and teleportation, which was found to violate the laws of physics.
04:08:08 <Etaoin> someone should reorganize this sentence to be ascending in hilarity
04:09:09 <oerjan> you mean it isn't?
04:09:40 <Etaoin> the more I read it the more I find it is
04:10:05 <Etaoin> it really does hit a perfect high note with that ending
04:10:58 <jonne_> imagine if they did dabble in things acceptably costly in relation to the societal benefits
04:11:03 <jonne_> such as environmentalism
04:12:12 <Etaoin> they do self driving cars, that's a step in that direction I think
04:12:30 <oerjan> doesn't that Makani thing count?
04:15:09 <jonne_> what do these cars even run on
04:15:50 <zzo38> A road, I suppose
04:15:50 <Etaoin> intelligence
04:16:09 <jonne_> why don't you marry each other
04:17:15 <Etaoin> because roads are 2d and intelligence is ethereal
04:18:13 <jonne_> but how does it work, do you even need a driver's licence
04:18:51 <Etaoin> why would a car need a driver's licence
04:19:05 <jonne_> exactly
04:19:07 <Etaoin> do you need a walking licence?
04:19:18 <jonne_> maybe the future is here and i won't ever have to make that investment
04:19:36 <Etaoin> hopefully
04:23:51 <Etaoin> driving is for losers lol
04:24:32 <shachaf> `wisdom
04:24:40 <HackEgo> turkey//Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
04:24:51 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure you'll need a driver's license at least until laws are changed.
04:25:01 <oerjan> also, someone in the driver's seat.
04:25:05 <Etaoin> not if I sit in the passenger seat
04:25:09 <Etaoin> dammit
04:25:15 <shachaf> `wisdom
04:25:17 <HackEgo> html//HTML is short for "hope this mess loads".
04:25:18 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
04:25:29 <shachaf> `wisdom
04:25:30 <shachaf> `wisdom
04:25:31 <shachaf> `wisdom
04:25:43 <Etaoin> <HackEgo> chill damn
04:25:59 <shachaf> definitely deleting that one
04:26:04 <HackEgo> diarrhea//Diarrhea is the most sickening accent, although some others are more grave.
04:26:05 <HackEgo> ​\//\ was initially popular as a replacement for the solidus, but inevitably there was a backslash.
04:26:05 <HackEgo> select//select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and more.
04:26:48 <Etaoin> tbh you should implement one that tells the user to chill if there's a lot of consecutive requests
04:27:00 <shachaf> 5 is the standard number
04:27:08 <shachaf> for 6 requests i'd agree
04:27:23 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/html
04:27:33 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan fizzie
04:28:04 <shachaf> hm
04:28:05 <shachaf> `5
04:28:10 <HackEgo> 1/2:422) <monqy> cigaretes and drunking "lame highs for lame people" <oerjan> yeah if it doesn't make you go crazy and shoot at people, it's not worth it. take it from a norwegian. \ 803) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway \ 871) <Bike> so, i'm readng chaitin's book on the diophantine thing, and h
04:28:14 <shachaf> `spam
04:28:16 <HackEgo> 2/2:e uses lisp with single-character variable names, in APL's character set. is there a reliable test to see if i'm actually in some caricatured hell? \ 547) <itidus20> my old 2d game is named either runch or turbo fight.... and its hard \ 742) <monqy> moral of the story with enough peer pressure nything is possible \
04:28:36 <shachaf> hm
04:28:41 <shachaf> nostalgia forbids deleting any of them
04:28:57 <Etaoin> why are you deleting :(
04:35:40 <zzo38> I think that you should hardly ever to delete them.
04:36:09 <shachaf> `quote
04:36:11 <HackEgo> 985) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows
04:37:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
04:42:27 <oerjan> Etaoin: it's a tradition
04:43:00 -!- bender has joined.
04:43:02 <oerjan> although these days there are so few crap quotes left that we normally don't find anything we want to remove
04:43:35 <Etaoin> how come there's a shortage of crap quotes?
04:43:49 <oerjan> because we deleted them hth :P
04:44:00 <shachaf> `5
04:44:04 <HackEgo> 1/2:385) <SgeoN1> No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse. \ 1070) <+kmc> Harry Potter and the Physical Impossibility of Death in the Mind of Someone Living \ 737) <monqy> 200 and 20 are the same <monqy> different notations for the same thing \ 368) <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: nope, I
04:44:09 <shachaf> `spam
04:44:11 <HackEgo> 2/2: removed . from the current directory \ 686) <fizzie> Quinary computers replace the cache with a quiche. \
04:44:41 <oerjan> what is that final newline for
04:44:50 <shachaf> Are quinary computers computers that can only run quines?
04:45:01 <Etaoin> why aren't there any new ones though °n°
04:45:21 <shachaf> oerjan: it's me being lazy hth
04:45:37 <oerjan> Etaoin: there are. but i think we've got slightly higher standards
04:45:39 <shachaf> oerjan: alt. it's for disambiguating between text that contains a final newline and text that doesn't
04:45:47 <oerjan> OKAY
04:45:54 <shachaf> `cat bin/sport
04:45:55 <HackEgo> distort "${1:-/dev/stdin}" | spore
04:45:59 <shachaf> `cat bin/distort
04:45:59 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N=330 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = f.read().replace("\n", " \\ ") \ for i in xrange(0, len(data), N): \ print data[i:i+N]
04:49:18 <shachaf> `sled bin/distort//s#data = .*#data = ' \\\\ '.join(f.read().splitlines())#
04:49:21 <HackEgo> bin/distort//#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys \ N=330 \ name = sys.argv[1] if len(sys.argv) > 1 else "/dev/stdin" \ with open(name, "r") as f: \ data = ' \\ '.join(f.read().splitlines()) \ for i in xrange(0, len(data), N): \ print data[i:i+N]
04:49:25 <shachaf> `5
04:49:28 <HackEgo> 1/3:946) <Bike> i've always wanted to xor swap transfinite ordinals \ 111) <fungot> ais523: elf corpses are not considered expensive health food. but the most expensive. \ 327) <oklopol> yes i use the services of a psychic, but i'm considering getting a live one since stuff like "hello $name, your first name $first_name has |$first_
04:49:31 <shachaf> `spam
04:49:31 <HackEgo> 2/3:name| letters, so by using numerology we can tell ..." is getting kind of boring \ 829) <elliott> I kept telling my therapist I wanted more conventional, non-hip-hop-oriented treatment, but it was no use. my shrinkwrapped. <elliott> okay i hate myself for making a pun that bad <elliott> please kill me <elliott> :( \ 776) <zzo
04:49:33 <shachaf> `spam
04:49:34 <HackEgo> 3/3:38> But I still sign by my pens and use extra dots and shapes and so on so that I can claim I was threatened to sign it and put those dots there to warn you, or whatever
04:49:36 <shachaf> oerjan: hth
04:50:17 <oerjan> . o O ( xor swapping transfinite ordinals is entirely reasonable )
04:50:55 -!- Reece` has quit (Quit: Alsithyafturttararfunar).
04:51:42 <oerjan> it's just nim addition after all
04:51:46 <oerjan> *nimber
04:52:40 <shachaf> Is there something like FRACTRAN that uses powers of 2 and sets instead of primes and bags?
04:53:10 <oerjan> i think we concluded it isn't TC with sets
04:53:41 <oerjan> in fact, that's pretty obvious, you get a finite number of bits
04:53:51 <shachaf> Well, you might have to use a more complicated operation.
04:53:57 <Etaoin> would you mind if I attempted at making my own bot? never done that before, might get interesting
04:54:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i know, you could treat the bits like a tape *runs away*
04:54:31 <shachaf> The one used by FRACTRAN (which would be something involving & and |, I guess) probably wouldn't work.
04:54:50 <oerjan> Etaoin: that's also traditional
04:55:23 <oerjan> and if it gets too spammy, it's traditional that shachaf asks you to move it to #esoteric-blah
04:55:49 <shachaf> And if it's actually too spammy, it's traditional that oerjan bans it a little later.
04:56:14 <oerjan> LIES
04:56:34 <Etaoin> I'm gonna believe the man with the correct amount of characters in their name on this one
04:56:44 <oerjan> darn
04:56:52 <shachaf> `? lies
04:56:53 <HackEgo> Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
04:57:01 <Etaoin> that's you oerjan
04:57:10 <shachaf> oerjan's LIES was a lie
04:57:11 <oerjan> i know
04:57:23 <shachaf> I know *you* know.
04:57:34 <oerjan> i think possibly you know.
04:57:41 <jonne_> https://xkcd.com/1646/
04:57:42 * oerjan isn't that big on theory of mind.
04:57:43 <jonne_> relevant
04:57:44 <jonne_> maybe
04:58:17 <oerjan> jonne_: please don't link that where fungot can see it twh
04:58:17 <fungot> oerjan: i wonder if it works
04:58:21 <Etaoin> that kind of bot is obviously too spammy and would get moved to #esoteric-blah
04:58:28 <oerjan> fungot: NO IT DOES NOT WORK
04:58:28 <fungot> oerjan: i am if i call eval on it is there, use fnord)? i
04:58:56 <shachaf> fungot: why don't you try it hth
04:58:56 <fungot> shachaf: surely all 1x does is appends the x to the value of path slot.
04:59:12 <oerjan> shachaf: please don't doom us all twh
04:59:20 <shachaf> fungot: is oerjan doomed
04:59:20 <fungot> shachaf: the last one.)"
04:59:28 <shachaf> fungot: am i doomed
04:59:29 <fungot> shachaf: i'm having trouble getting the plt one
04:59:50 <Etaoin> fungot: are we all doomed?
04:59:50 <fungot> Etaoin: be there fnord. lanier thinks the software crisis. tush ehird print " fnord
05:00:01 <Etaoin> we're ok I think
05:00:22 <shachaf> fungot: are you referring to sidney lanier twh
05:00:22 <fungot> shachaf: if you want to offer you this one too. fnord.
05:03:14 <shachaf> fungot: look where too much fun got you
05:03:14 <fungot> shachaf: cette newsletter n'est pas un programme." is that like cracking your knuckles, except you're an octopus? i can't seem to get the user accounts too, this'll take days.
05:03:40 <shachaf> ceci n'est pas un bot
05:06:05 <shachaf> `wisdom
05:06:06 <HackEgo> superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal//Superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal is where mroman lives.
05:06:20 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/superduperinteressantesandersonnegelegenesdorfmitoderohnesahneistunsdabeiabsolutscheissegal
05:06:26 <HackEgo> mroman
05:06:27 <shachaf> TOO LONG TDNH
05:07:46 <oerjan> it's just german it's supposed to be that way hth
05:08:10 <shachaf> `wisdom
05:08:11 <HackEgo> chicken//chicken is boily af
05:08:24 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/chicken
05:08:30 <HackEgo> mroman
05:13:00 <shachaf> `wisdom
05:13:03 <HackEgo> extreme irony//Extreme irony is what happens when you get a Darwin award for extreme ironing.
05:13:13 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/extreme irony
05:13:17 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan
05:13:28 <shachaf> Maybe I ought to make a version of `wisdom with built-in culprits.
05:14:10 <zgrep> I remember the days when HackEgo replied instantly...
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05:14:32 <Etaoin> how come it's slow though?
05:14:52 <zgrep> I don't know. I tried to set up my own variant of it, but the main userspace linux emulator thingy kept segfaulting.
05:15:12 <Etaoin> :(
05:15:29 <zgrep> I have a plan to make an IRC bot that simply runs inside a VM, and passes through things to bash without actually trying to do any shielding or anything.
05:15:54 <Etaoin> are programming languages created or discovered
05:16:13 <zgrep> Well, same of any idea, really. Both, in my opinion.
05:17:10 <Etaoin> does the answer change if said programming languages are joke languages?
05:17:23 <zgrep> Nah. Still both.
05:17:32 <zgrep> Sure, as an idea it has always existed. But /somebody/ had to jump through the mental hoops to figure it out. They "created" it by thinking of it out of "nothing".
05:17:46 <jonne_> it's 6am don't indulge him
05:17:54 <zgrep> Not for me.
05:17:57 <zgrep> :P
05:18:10 <shachaf> `wisdom
05:18:12 <HackEgo> nano//nano is vi's sister.
05:18:19 <shachaf> `wisdom
05:18:20 <HackEgo> helsinki//Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Its main suburb is Hexham, Northumberland.
05:18:27 <zgrep> Hm. Why's it a double /? Didn't it used to be a single slash?
05:18:39 <shachaf> Double / is the best.
05:18:42 <shachaf> `wisdom /
05:18:44 <HackEgo> find: warning: Unix filenames usually don't contain slashes (though pathnames do). That means that '-name `*/*'' will probably evaluate to false all the time on this system. You might find the '-wholename' test more useful, or perhaps '-samefile'. Alternatively, if you are using GNU grep, you could use 'find ... -print0 | grep -FzZ `*/*''. \ //c
05:18:55 <shachaf> oops
05:18:55 <zgrep> Haha.
05:18:57 <zgrep> :D
05:18:59 <shachaf> oerjan: fix it twh
05:19:35 <shachaf> `smlist 445
05:19:36 <HackEgo> smlist 445: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
05:21:11 <Etaoin> is it possible to crash hackego
05:21:50 <zgrep> Possibly. It'd take quite the maneuvering, though. You'd have to break out of the UML thingy.
05:22:26 <zgrep> Huh. It took me this long to realise your nick is Etaoin, and that the rest of it is shrdlu. ._.
05:23:17 <Etaoin> I hope I'm not stealing someone else's nick
05:23:22 * zgrep vanishes back into mysterious idling for a long time
05:24:36 <Etaoin> I'mma go sleep cya <3
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05:35:58 <oerjan> `find -path
05:36:01 <HackEgo> find: missing argument to `-path'
05:36:10 <oerjan> `cat bin/wisdom
05:36:11 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
05:37:10 <oerjan> `sled bin/wisdom//s,-name ",-ipath "wisdom/,
05:37:15 <HackEgo> bin/wisdom//F="$(find wisdom -ipath "wisdom/*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
05:37:21 <oerjan> `wisdom wisdom
05:37:31 <HackEgo> wisdome//The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom.
05:37:34 <oerjan> hm wait
05:38:10 <oerjan> `cat bin/lowercase
05:38:11 <HackEgo> ​#!/bin/bash \ tr A-Z a-z | sed 's/Ø/ø/g'
05:38:35 <oerjan> `sled bin/wisdom//s/ipath/path/
05:38:39 <HackEgo> bin/wisdom//F="$(find wisdom -path "wisdom/*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f -print0 | shuf -z -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
05:38:43 <oerjan> `wisdom /
05:38:45 <HackEgo> ​¯\(°​_o)/¯//¯\(°​_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:39:17 <oerjan> `wisdom //
05:39:18 <HackEgo> ​//cat: : No such file or directory
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05:39:49 <oerjan> shachaf: that'll be 6 zorkmids hth
05:40:06 <shachaf> oerjan: are we charging each other for HackEgo changes now?
05:40:58 <oerjan> `8ball are we charging each other for HackEgo changes now?
05:40:58 <oerjan> are we charging each other for HackEgo changes now?
05:41:00 <HackEgo> You may rely on it.
05:41:05 <shachaf> i'm not sure the balance will wind up being in your favor hth
05:41:08 <oerjan> dammit stupid network
05:41:42 <oerjan> well i'm always off balance anyway.
05:42:22 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#over#under#
05:42:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious articled cackling zombie underlord kommisjonær emeritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:44:42 <oerjan> wtf monday forecast
05:45:06 <oerjan> i think i shall not be outside at around 18
05:45:16 <oerjan> (not that i was planning to, anyway)
05:45:49 <shachaf> `? weather
05:45:51 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
05:45:54 <lambdabot> CYUL 260400Z 00000KT 15SM FEW250 22/13 A3009 RMK CI2 SLP192 DENSITY ALT 700FT \ ENVA 260420Z 09003KT 9999 SCT010 BKN014 12/10 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 09006KT \ ESSB 260420Z AUTO 08007KT 9999 BKN098/// BKN180/// 20/16 Q1012 \ KOAK 260353Z 28013KT 10SM FEW180 17/11 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP135 T01720106
05:49:30 <oerjan> 2.9 - 14.3 mm, that one hour.
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05:49:54 <oerjan> not very precise, i guess
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06:17:28 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, would it be better to translate languages by going from the main language to lojban then from lojban to the target than just from source to target?
06:18:05 <Destructible> probably not
06:18:30 <Destructible> because any resolution conserved would only be done by the people making the conversion to lojban
06:19:09 <Destructible> perhaps it could be useful for converting it to a language where it is well described, before someone else translates it
06:25:16 <Cale> Hm, would it be better to translate audio formats by going from FLAC to Ogg Vorbis then from Ogg Vorbis to MP3, than just from FLAC to MP3?
06:26:29 <coppro> no
06:26:51 <coppro> never use a lossy format as an intermediate as you'll just introduce more degradation
06:30:23 <pikhq> In video lossy formats often get used as intermediates.
06:30:48 <pikhq> Not that it's a good idea there either, it's just more common because raw or lossless compressed video is pretty sizable.
06:36:26 <hppavilion[1]> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Voiceless_glottal_fricative.ogg should be a meme for responding to terrible jokes
06:42:16 <hppavilion[1]> Do linguists have a term for the way people talk to their pets?
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06:48:02 <Cale> coppro: I was joking about the question about languages :)
06:49:00 <coppro> ohhh
06:49:07 <coppro> missed it lol
06:49:07 <Destructible> I FOUND THAT FILE BEFORE
06:49:15 <Destructible> I SAVED IT MY COMPUTER
06:49:18 <Destructible> it was amazing
06:49:18 <shachaf> Cale: Well, for audio formats you have a lossless option you can use instead, so you don't have to write n^2 converters.
06:49:44 <shachaf> There's no lossless language option, so in theory using a lossy language might make sense to save work.
06:50:06 <shachaf> Even if some intermediate format did make sense, though, it would almost certainly not be lojban.
06:51:03 <Destructible> To be honest, language is a lossy format as well
06:51:09 <Destructible> To begin with.
06:53:35 <pikhq> And translation is not exactly as practical to do automatically as audio format conversion is.
06:54:34 <hppavilion[1]> Destructible: That particular file I sent?
06:54:44 <Destructible> yes
06:54:52 <Destructible> i saved it before
07:21:35 <hppavilion[1]> There seems to be a rule that, if a word contains the diletter "py" or "pi", it is required that there be a (completely irrelevant) python library with a name based on it
07:22:05 <shachaf> "happy" is a haskell package
07:22:11 <shachaf> but not a haskell-python bridge
07:22:14 <shachaf> what a waste
07:31:42 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: There's probably also a haskell-python bridge called happy
07:31:56 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: If there isn't, we must execute the BDFL of happy and take its place
07:32:20 <hppavilion[1]> Also, how do you know there isn't a python package called "happy" fitting the criterium?
07:32:39 <shachaf> how can you truly know anything
07:32:43 <shachaf> the world is a mystery
07:33:30 <Cale> like birds
07:33:38 <Cale> what are birds?
07:33:44 <Cale> We just don't know.
07:34:10 <shachaf> `? birds
07:34:25 <shachaf> why is HackEgo so slow? we just don't know
07:34:26 <HackEgo> bird bird bird bird
07:34:33 <shachaf> `hoag wisdom/bird
07:34:42 <HackEgo> ​<int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ <oerjan> revert \ <elliott> revert 1 \ <Bike> revert \ <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird \ <nortti> learn bird is a dinosaur \ <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird
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07:43:21 <shachaf> `? nite
07:43:22 <HackEgo> nite? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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07:58:04 <\oren\> Aw shit I made myself sound really old!
07:58:50 <\oren\> I remarked about "waiting for the game boy advance sp instead of buying the first gba"
08:01:54 <\oren\> how does one catch oneself from saying things that will inadvertently show one's age?
08:03:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:03:56 <pikhq> That doesn't make you sound very old...
08:05:24 <Taneb> pikhq, older than me, I guess, but probably younger than most of the channel
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08:06:01 <pikhq> Yeah, it only makes you "maybe mid-20s"
08:08:53 <shachaf> I never had any Nintendo things.
08:09:09 <\oren\> Actually, there's a more general question. How do you detect statements that reveal personal information indirectly? Can an automatic system be made to build up a profile of an anonymous person based on such statments?
08:09:19 <shachaf> People try to make me feel like I missed out on life.
08:09:21 <shachaf> Scowple.
08:10:18 <\oren\> seems like a pretty hard AI task
08:13:30 <\oren\> but on the other hand a system like that can also be used to automatically prevent people from revealing too much about themselves
08:14:17 <shachaf> You should reveal literally everything about yourself.
08:14:25 <shachaf> Don't you want to make the world more open and connected?
08:15:34 <pikhq> shachaf: Almost all of my Nintendo things have been adulthood purchases, if that makes you feel better.
08:15:47 <\oren\> I already kinda do. I'm using my real name here...
08:16:14 <shachaf> pikhq: How's pooching?
08:16:22 <pikhq> I don't, but many of you know my real name, and those of you who don't are a trip to google.com away.
08:16:32 <pikhq> shachaf: Doin' okay. Hopeful for my interview on Tuesday.
08:16:45 <\oren\> pikhq: that's true for me too, but only because I have way more money now to buy everything
08:18:23 <shachaf> What sort?
08:18:58 <pikhq> Code interview for an SRE position up in SF.
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08:23:09 <coppro> pikhq: internal?
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09:05:47 <Destructible> hi
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09:07:30 <zzo38> How should I to do keyboard mapping lookup in Xwicketset? Using XKeysymToString and XrmStringToQuark every time a key is pushed would probably be slow?
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11:24:49 <izabera> https://highon.coffee/blog/penetration-testing-tools-cheat-sheet/
11:25:04 <izabera> this is great
11:25:11 <izabera> gcc -o exploit exploit.c i needed this so much
11:25:26 <gamemanj> yeah, gcc -o is a really useful option
11:25:28 <gamemanj> it like...
11:25:29 <gamemanj> makes output
11:25:41 <gamemanj> go to a different place! *drama*
11:28:02 <izabera> i'm so glad they show how to create a suid shell for both /bin/bash and /bin/sh
11:36:43 <gamemanj> it has some useful stuff like
11:36:52 <gamemanj> a reference to The Martian for their ASCII table
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11:38:25 <gamemanj> and such lovely advice as "Use google to search exploit-db.com for exploits" (yeah, that's not suspicious)
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13:01:26 <fizzie> I've never hung around on #IRP, so I wouldn't've seen the dicussion involving 'memonic', if that really happened.
13:09:33 <izabera> how do you read wouldn't've ?
13:24:01 <gamemanj> would not have
13:24:36 <gamemanj> Person A: Are you intending on destroying the world? Person B: I wouldn't've even dreamt of it.
13:24:59 <gamemanj> (of course, person B may be telling lies)
13:25:06 <gamemanj> (but that's not the point)
13:25:17 <izabera> that was an interesting subplot
13:25:45 <gamemanj> In any language where you can tell truth, you can tell lies
13:26:08 <gamemanj> (as long as those truths are arbitrary)
13:26:23 <FireFly> What about the other way around? (what about newspeak?j
13:26:28 <FireFly> )*
13:27:02 <gamemanj> As long as those lies are arbitrary.
13:27:19 <gamemanj> everybody can tell what "ungood" means
13:27:36 <gamemanj> for example, uncreating the universe could be considered ungood
13:28:26 <gamemanj> Note the "as long as they're arbitrary" - you have to have enough expression to tell whatever lies you need, and by having that you also leave a hole open for telling truth
13:30:03 <gamemanj> Even a simple operator that expresses a fact to be not-true allows expressing a truth for any lie
13:30:14 <gamemanj> because you can just prepend that operator
13:30:18 <gamemanj> to the lie
13:30:38 <gamemanj> And since your oppressive regime will have to, one day, say that the words of the rebels aren't true...
13:31:02 <gamemanj> Someone will find a way to express (perhaps with some monkey-patching of the language), that your words aren't true.
13:44:11 <izabera> \oren\: http://unicodepowersymbol.com/
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13:52:15 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: also, Tangut
13:52:26 <lifthrasiir> good luck with them!
13:52:45 * lifthrasiir is looking forward the eventual encoding of classical Yi script
13:52:58 <lifthrasiir> (88,000 characters proposed, probably the largest of any Unicode proposal)
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13:58:55 <nortti> lifthrasiir: out of interest, what's the story of your nick?
13:59:52 <lifthrasiir> I've just taken a nick of appropriate complexity (deriving from Lífþrasir of Norse mythology) and tweaked it so that it is available in gmail
14:00:12 <nortti> ah
14:03:24 <lifthrasiir> nortti: and if you wonder about Yurume instead, https://anidb.net/ch11207
14:12:51 <gamemanj> a language is a standard that people agree on by communicating in it. thus, what stops Tolkien's scripts from entering Unicode?
14:13:06 <gamemanj> What is the criteria for a language?
14:13:45 <gamemanj> And/or script for that language?
14:14:27 <nortti> I have heard there are some problems with tolkien estate re. tengwar
14:14:35 <nortti> but I don't remember where
14:20:27 <fizzie> Cirth and Tengwar are still at 160xx in http://www.unicode.org/roadmaps/smp/
14:21:06 <fizzie> (But the proposal is from 1997 already.)
14:24:15 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: roughtly speaking, 1. attestation in the actual texts 2. willingness of the community 3. suitability of encoding
14:24:52 <fizzie> Klingon (also proposed by Everson at the same time) was formally rejected for lack of evidence for point 1.
14:24:54 <lifthrasiir> I think Klingon was rejected because of 2 (the *actual* Klingon speakers use Latin transliterations)
14:25:00 <fizzie> Well, maybe 2.
14:25:13 <fizzie> Depends on how you want to think about it, I guess.
14:27:04 <lifthrasiir> fizzie: if the script has enough notability and (usage and/or research), probably 1 is not a concern
14:27:18 <fizzie> For Tengwar, there's an actual published periodical (http://www.elvish.org/VT/) and all.
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16:56:23 <int-e> shachaf: which "usual" meaning of "pidgin" did you have in mind? in any case, the wisdom entry resulted from a discussion about IRC clients, IIRC.
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18:43:59 <ais523|telnet> right
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18:46:36 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/AsaClassCruiser.PNG
18:46:59 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/AsaLaunchConfig.PNG
18:47:17 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/AsaLeavingKerbin.PNG
18:47:43 <moon_> virtualbox is fixed
18:50:56 <gamemanj> what, exactly, did oren do to cause a "biome Highlands" when nowhere near the planet in question
18:51:34 <gamemanj> and who would need a smokescreen
18:51:42 <gamemanj> ("Smk Scrn")
18:52:08 <gamemanj> unless... Aha! \oren\ is actually a Kerbal spy!
18:52:29 <gamemanj> ...also, that is one big cruiser.
18:53:31 <izabera> \oren\: your font doesn't have japanese numbers?
18:53:39 <gamemanj> (I also like the screen-space optimization you've got going on there with the 7-pixel-high font in the launch config...)
18:54:58 <gamemanj> izabera: maybe try looking in the "Chinese Characters" section... 三
18:55:24 <gamemanj> at least, 三 seems to translate to "three" according to Google Translate - it's possible I'm just uninformed.
18:56:32 <ais523> gamemanj: it means "three" but it's also sometimes used phonetically
18:56:51 <ais523> kind-of like people writing "l8r" to mean "later" in text messages
18:57:04 <gamemanj> Noted.
18:57:26 <gamemanj> also, that font has awesome things
18:57:42 <gamemanj> (Translation: that font has awesssss...omethings.)
18:57:46 <moon_> How do i set the path for non interactive shells?
18:57:59 <myname> cd
18:58:19 <moon_> no i ment $PATH
18:58:35 <myname> in whatever config they read
18:59:07 <ais523> moon_: «export PATH=» and the path in their config file
18:59:08 <izabera> 1一 2二 3三 4四 5五 6六 7七 8八 9力 10十 ok these are all in \oren\'s font
18:59:15 <izabera> but i expected them to be contiguous
18:59:24 <izabera> also i think 8 is wrong
19:00:34 <izabera> and there's 百 twice
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19:07:21 <\oren\> izabera: unicode doesn't have them contiguous
19:08:06 <\oren\> I have all kanji from grades 1-6 in Japan if that helps
19:10:37 <\oren\> This cruiser is heading to Duna and Ike to conduct orbital reconnaissance
19:11:07 <\oren\> It has 3 years of food, water and oxygen aboard
19:11:22 <\oren\> hauling that stuff takes a lot of fuel.
19:11:37 <\oren\> so the whole thing is therefore pretty big
19:13:53 <zzo38> One idea to avoid having to convert a keysym to a string and then to a quark each time a key is pushed in my program might be, when the resources are loaded to create an array of the sorted keysyms mapping them to the quarks, and then search that array using bsearch to find the quark corresponding to a keysym.
19:29:15 <izabera> what stupid system doesn't have contiguous numbers?
19:30:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
19:31:47 <gamemanj> izabera: well, they're not always digits (see what ais523 said)
19:32:12 <gamemanj> izabera: so they're closer to just random letters, arranged in whatever order it was decided they should be arranged in
19:32:24 <izabera> then they decided a stupid order
19:32:38 <gamemanj> only from a numeric perspective
19:35:06 <zzo38> How to convert GContext to GC with Xlib? (Such thing might want to be done if you want to create a shareable GC)
19:35:35 <gamemanj> why only share the GC?
19:36:01 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
19:36:19 <zzo38> I do not quite understand the point of your question
19:36:38 <gamemanj> I mean, AFAIK Xorg has No Real Protection (tm) against applications messing with other applications anyway (see: Every fullscreen application that abuses XRandr ever), so there's no downside to passing a sub-window
19:39:23 <zzo38> Yes, you can share a window, font, or whatever, but it depend what you want to share
19:42:55 <gamemanj> so apparently a GContext is a CARD32.
19:44:45 <zzo38> Yes, and can be stored in a property or selection or event or whatever, like any other ID.
19:45:14 <gamemanj> Which would be lovely if I could even actually find in any of this what a "GC" actually is.
19:45:31 <gamemanj> oh
19:45:35 <gamemanj> Xlib.h defines it with a typedef
19:46:11 <zzo38> "GC" is an opaque type used in Xlib. You can convert a GC to a GContext, but not the other way around, it seems.
19:47:21 <gamemanj> now you know why passing a window ID might be easier
19:47:43 <zzo38> Yes, but it does not help if the ID you want to share is not a window ID.
19:48:39 <gamemanj> Would be lovely, but things that return GCs seem to be... few and far between
19:49:55 <gamemanj> also, Xlib seems to keep spooky internal fields
19:50:06 <gamemanj> at least, that's what they say...
19:51:17 <gamemanj> presumably,
19:51:22 <zzo38> Something like this would do: GC XGetGC(Display*,GC,GContext); GC XUngetGC(GC);
19:51:37 <gamemanj> those spooky internal fields are why they don't let you do that
19:51:59 <gamemanj> some data it can't extrapolate from the ID
19:52:19 <gamemanj> are you sure it has to be a GContext?
19:53:06 <gamemanj> because by the look of it you'd have to allocate a GC, then swap around an internal field, and hope Xlib doesn't notice
19:53:16 <gamemanj> aka. bad stuff
19:53:25 -!- boily has joined.
19:53:46 <zzo38> Can't it to retrieve the extra data from the server?
19:53:52 <boily> @metar CYUL
19:53:52 <lambdabot> CYUL 261800Z 21010G16KT 30SM FEW060 FEW180 BKN250 31/15 A3005 RMK CU1AC1CI7 CU TR AC TR SLP176 DENSITY ALT 1800FT
19:53:59 <gamemanj> zzo38: IDK
19:55:04 <gamemanj> I mean, in theory there shouldn't be any extra data
19:55:46 <zzo38> I would think the extra data would be any pending GC changes
19:56:10 <gamemanj> Well, trouble is they don't document it for some insane reason
19:56:19 <gamemanj> so who knows
19:56:26 <gamemanj> it just says "internal stuff"
19:56:47 <gamemanj> oh, the specific quote is:
19:56:49 <gamemanj> "there is more to this structure, but it is private to Xlib"
19:56:53 <gamemanj> ...which means the same thing
19:57:00 <gamemanj> but in a more complicated manner
19:57:07 <gamemanj> (and being more annoying about it)
19:59:00 <moon_> Hbot now allows you to execute raw python as well
19:59:20 <gamemanj> tell me, is hbot online?
20:01:48 <moon_> It is, and i discovered i made a mistake, someone else decided to write the python execution script, so nvm on python exec until later
20:02:02 <moon_> Plus my version was bugged
20:02:14 <gamemanj> (and I didn't even get a chance to mess with it, either)
20:02:20 <gamemanj> (I tried many iterations of "help"...)
20:02:34 <moon_> ?
20:02:49 <gamemanj> trying to find out what commands it has
20:03:06 <gamemanj> unless your hbot wasn't the hbot that recently left?
20:03:12 <gamemanj> as in, a minute or two ago?
20:03:22 <moon_> No.
20:03:31 <moon_> well
20:03:33 <moon_> on what channel?
20:03:38 <gamemanj> none, left the network
20:03:56 <moon_> Oh, hbot is running in #hbot and #esoteric-blah
20:04:00 <moon_> yes
20:04:09 <moon_> enough people use hbot for it to have a channel :P
20:04:11 <gamemanj> command prefix?
20:04:26 <moon_> >>> ( we changed it due to a quirk in the ezzybot framework
20:04:32 <gamemanj> (suffice to say I don't want to have to start with the elvish next time it joins to try and get it to output a command listing)
20:14:55 <zzo38> The file Xlibint.h has all of the internal structures. In addition to the stuff I expected, it has variables "rects" and "dashes"
20:22:59 <quintopia> gamemzzoonello
20:23:05 <quintopia> helloily
20:24:05 -!- jaboja has joined.
20:24:53 <quintopia> jabellohja
20:25:19 <quintopia> hmm...is jaboja a human?
20:26:02 <moon_> Welp, hbot is still not working with its new python support yet
20:27:05 <quintopia> i'm fairly certain moon is human
20:31:01 <jaboja> I'm a human. Beep!
20:31:10 <moon_> Can anyone help out? we are failing badly at getting hbot to run python
20:31:13 <moon_> We need someone who can do python :P
20:41:25 <gamemanj> jaboja: hello human
20:43:13 <gamemanj> jaboja: if you are a human, what is the best way to perform: 64 + 192
20:44:34 <jaboja> I would run python and see what it returns
20:53:02 <gamemanj> and how would you run python
20:55:01 <quintopia> gamemanj: jaboja has already proven humanity. "i would push it off onto someone else if i have to but since i don't i will do nothing" is the most human possible answer
20:55:42 <quintopia> anyway, i can python a python sometimes. how much do you pay for such help?
20:59:05 -!- Etaoin has joined.
20:59:14 <Etaoin> hello friends I am here
21:01:00 <moon_> Hello
21:02:10 <Etaoin> `wisdom
21:02:31 <Etaoin> aw is it the wrong character?
21:03:12 <HackEgo> montreal//Montreal is a city in Canada that somehow is obsessed with Vietnamese cuisine.
21:03:33 <Etaoin> ah it's just very slow
21:05:44 <gamemanj> HackEgo lives in a castle of sandbags to protect iself
21:05:47 <gamemanj> *itself
21:05:53 <gamemanj> However, this makes it very slow to communicate with
21:06:05 <gamemanj> since the requests have to navigate the castle,
21:06:13 <gamemanj> while avoiding all of HackEgo's evil traps! :)
21:06:47 <Etaoin> `wisdom
21:07:10 <HackEgo> twnh//twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help. It is provided by a toe with no hair.
21:07:17 <Etaoin> idk with all the bells and whistles of hackego I somehow prefer fungot
21:07:18 <fungot> Etaoin: " more logic p0rn at fnord!') code is perfectly ok for other people reading your code first. it is defined
21:20:02 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:22:14 <fizzie> The trouble with fungot is the lack of persistence.
21:22:15 <fungot> fizzie: english auxiliaries are fucked up on the discussion list" though. :p))) without letting me see the perl script to complete the operation ( ' this record set the field x to be more, eh, specbot?
21:23:36 <fizzie> And there are some limits as to what's practical to do with brainfuck delivered over IRC, though there's a mechanism that allows to construct a program incrementally to go beyond the line lenght limit.
21:23:42 <myname> i amnpretty amazed for what is possible with befunge
21:25:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:31:53 <Etaoin> myname, isn't befunge turing complete?
21:32:49 <ais523> Etaoin: befunge-93 is a push-down automaton unless you use bignum arithmetic
21:33:01 <ais523> it only has a finitely large playfield and a stack
21:33:12 <ais523> befunge-98's use of a stack stack makes it turing-complete, I think
21:33:14 <Etaoin> fungot is written in befunge-95 iirc
21:33:14 <fungot> Etaoin: i think i've done that much without any sleep a few times
21:33:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HORRIPILANT CHICKEN).
21:36:17 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
21:46:31 <\oren\> what characters should I add next?
21:49:31 <Etaoin> to what exactly?
21:49:42 <fizzie> Etaoin: -98.
21:50:13 <fizzie> (I don't think -95 exists; -96 and -97 do, but only barely.)
21:50:19 <Etaoin> so it is turing complete therefore myname's amazement isn't justified ^_^
21:50:26 <Etaoin> yeah I just misread
21:53:51 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
21:59:13 <myname> Etaoin: well, being theoretically able to do everything and doing something useful are two different things
21:59:44 <Etaoin> I have to agree what fungot does in that language really is quite remarkable :)
21:59:44 <fungot> Etaoin: or it couldn't build it on top level?
22:07:45 <fizzie> ^ that's the secret, it's just built on top level.
22:08:40 <fizzie> A Befunge-98 variant with non-local function calls would be an eminently practical language.
22:09:12 <fizzie> There's a couple of function calls in the fungot sources, but they're pretty inconvenient to do, since you have to deal with routing execution back to any of the potential callsites.
22:09:12 <fungot> fizzie: you sleep in the dining room studying, and someone said at assembly that music was ripped from fnord
22:10:25 <Etaoin> why does it keep repeating fnord
22:10:47 <gamemanj> "Fnord: The Definitive Album"
22:11:52 <fizzie> Those :1-#<| and :2-#<| and #<| sequences (read from down to up) on approximately the rightmost column of lines 258-263, 231-236 and 225-227 are part of the machinery to return from the sub-interpreters so that ^ul/^bf/^def can share code.
22:12:45 <fizzie> And it keeps repeating fnord because that's the placeholder word it uses when the language model synthesizes the "out-of-vocabulary word" token that was used to replace overly rare words.
22:13:20 <fizzie> (In some styles. Other styles are unpruned that way and entirely fnord-free.)
22:13:39 <myname> nice
22:13:53 <fizzie> At least that's intentional. The fact that Charles Darwin uses emoticons all over the place wasn't.
22:13:58 <fizzie> ^style darwin
22:13:58 <fungot> Selected style: darwin (Books by Charles Darwin -- you know, that evilution guy)
22:14:14 <myname> so a function call,in fungot is actually a push of the "local scope integer" which gets looked up upon return?
22:14:14 <fizzie> fungot: So are you saying my parents were apes?
22:14:15 <fungot> myname: with respect to editors, mr. gould as distinct species, and those from/ long-styled form; both these sets correspond in length with advancing age :) characters derived from seeds are generally :) extreme thinness; and on analysis by mr. frankland, was carefully examined;/ seeds were also conspicuously larger than those :)/
22:14:15 <fungot> fizzie: " 658? 1. published in/ :( atlantic monthly,' 1859, p. 5.
22:14:43 <fizzie> myname: Pretty much, yes. It's the "standard" way to do it.
22:14:50 -!- Nathan2055 has joined.
22:15:35 <fizzie> I used to have, as a signature block, a simple recursive Fibonacci in Befunge-93.
22:16:21 <fizzie> (Very briefly.)
22:16:35 <fizzie> >#v1&#:<-1<-1\0\_.@
22:16:35 <fizzie> >2-!#v_:2\^fibre^-<
22:16:35 <fizzie> ^:_ >$1>\#+:#$!_1^
22:16:41 <fizzie> Not sure if that's the final form.
22:16:59 <myname> "it's not even the final form!!!11"
22:17:53 <izabera> why fibonacci?
22:18:22 <ais523> fizzie: haha, I take it you're using the Befunge stack as a callstack?
22:18:28 <fizzie> It's one of the canonical examples of recursion.
22:18:34 <fizzie> Yes.
22:19:18 <izabera> why fibonacci in your signature?
22:19:53 <fizzie> Oh. Well, I mean, I wanted something compact in Befunge. It seemed like the thing to do. I didn't keep it for long.
22:20:20 <fizzie> People had JAPH programs etc.
22:20:31 <izabera> japh doesn't print fibonacci
22:20:34 -!- moon_ has joined.
22:20:35 <izabera> shouldn't you write a jabh?
22:21:25 <izabera> but maybe fibonacci is more interesting
22:21:39 <myname> jabh?
22:21:58 <fizzie> I didn't have any particularly creative ideas for a JABH. And I had already spent a while compacting "fibre" (that thing) into a small-ish rectangle.
22:22:03 <fizzie> I think mooz helped a little.
22:23:11 <Etaoin> I still somehow feel obfuscated c code is less readable than befunge
22:23:18 <fizzie> myname: JAPH is an obfuscated Perl program that prints "Just another Perl hacker." -- by extension, JABH would be the same except s/Perl/Befunge/ for both the content and the language.
22:23:57 <fizzie> Etaoin: That would probably depend on whether the Befunge code is (intentionally) obfuscated.
22:24:14 <izabera> more obfuscate than just being befunge?!
22:24:16 <izabera> madness
22:25:13 <fizzie> Befunge is generally much more easier to write than to read, at least IME, and I've heard that from others as well.
22:25:28 <Etaoin> iobcc
22:25:34 <myname> i always wondered if people defined golfong in befunge
22:26:02 <myname> like, do you count chars? lines? area? circumference?
22:26:14 <Etaoin> pixels
22:26:28 <Etaoin> that should be a subrequirement
22:26:45 <Etaoin> in case two languages have the same amount of characters the one that uses the least pixels wins
22:27:02 <fizzie> I would wager a guess most Befunge golfing that goes on happens at anagol, and that just counts bytes in the source file.
22:27:02 <myname> indisagree
22:27:45 <myname> if pixels would be relevant, you could make a substitution language that replaces the most common commands with .,:…; etc
22:28:48 <Etaoin> I was thinking recently that if we defined a transistor's operation as f(x,y) = if y then x else 0, assuming that's correct, any language that has an if else statement is turing complete
22:28:58 <ais523> fizzie: ppcg also uses bytes in the source file for befunge, I believe
22:29:05 <Etaoin> though I'm fairly certain transistors are a bit more complicated than that
22:29:06 <ais523> (and similar languages such as hexagony)
22:29:42 <ais523> although interestingly, it has a rule that for unicode-heavy languages, you can use either utf-16 or utf-8
22:30:51 <myname> i'd say area would be i much nicer measurement for bf golfing
22:32:25 <Etaoin> well since only 3 bits are needed to store a brainfuck command and since even that can be further reduced with "switch" operators maybe we could just divide the amount of bytes by 2.667
22:33:01 <Etaoin> unless bf is befunge here ^^
22:33:08 <myname> befinge, yeah
22:33:11 <myname> *u
22:34:00 <izabera> how is area different from byte count?
22:34:26 <fizzie> xxxx
22:34:26 <fizzie> x
22:34:36 <fizzie> That has an area of 8 and a byte count of 6.
22:34:44 <izabera> that's arguably bullshit
22:34:54 <Etaoin> if you use the term arguably loosely
22:35:30 <fizzie> At least for the "area of bounding box" definition, which is admittedly only one of them.
22:35:41 <myname> izabera: it forces you to think in other ways
22:35:47 <fizzie> (It could also have an area of 5, but that's still quite different from the byte count.)
22:35:56 <myname> like, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx is worse that xxxx\nxxxx
22:36:10 <fizzie> Well, that's true for both.
22:36:27 <myname> you'd need to make solutions as quadratic as possible
22:36:27 -!- ^v has joined.
22:36:30 * ais523 considers making a language where the only meaningful thing is the shape of the bounding box
22:36:35 <myname> i think that'd be funny
22:36:47 <myname> ais523: good idea!
22:36:59 <izabera> wouldn't a vertical line be more efficient than a square?
22:37:05 <izabera> because you don't count newlines
22:37:11 <ais523> you do count newlines
22:37:21 <myname> i wouldn't count newlines
22:37:43 <myname> a vertical line is worse that a horizontal line
22:37:50 <izabera> but why
22:37:52 <myname> since x*y = y*x
22:38:02 <myname> and you may or may not count newlines
22:38:12 <myname> if you don't, it is equally bad
22:38:21 <fizzie> Anyway, I think many "area"-like definitions *would* be more natural, since "xxxx\nx" and "xxxx\n x" really "should" be the same "size".
22:38:25 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
22:38:33 <myname> fizzie: yeah
22:38:41 <myname> i'd also use the mbb
22:38:54 <izabera> the what?
22:39:22 <myname> minimal bounding box
22:39:25 <izabera> ok
22:40:01 <izabera> i just thought that with a vertical line you get many free bytes, even if they're all newlines
22:40:13 <izabera> not sure if this is any useful in befunge
22:40:32 <myname> newlines do not have any meaning as far as i know
22:41:25 <fizzie> They only affect where the other source characters end up in the playfield.
22:41:42 <izabera> is it harder to make a squarer program?
22:42:51 <myname> that's the question. fizzies fibonacci has about 50 commands in an area of 3*19=57
22:43:38 <myname> maybe circumference of the mbb is better
22:44:03 <myname> then it would be 3+3+19+19=44
22:44:30 <myname> whereas a squere with 8*8i64 possible chars only has a circumference of 4*8=32
22:44:35 <myname> *square
22:45:11 <moon_> i wonder how much code i would have to write to allow a ghci interface over hbot in python..
22:47:01 <izabera> probably more than in sh with common tools
22:47:16 <myname> http://phpthegoodparts.tumblr.com
22:47:18 <Etaoin> what about lisp
22:47:26 <moon_> Lisp? i could try :P
22:47:33 <fizzie> In a one-line program, if you need to go both ways you generally need to "waste" some characters to #s. In a more squarish program, you generally need to "waste" some characters to ^v<>. It's really a matter of how well you manage to structure your code to avoid either kind of waste, keeping in mind that conditionals by nature change direction, and it's possible to e.g. use _ to do a ...
22:47:39 <fizzie> ... combination of < and $ in a single command if you happen to know the value you want to $ is nonzero.
22:48:20 <fizzie> (Those are called "drop ifs".)
22:49:14 <myname> yeah, but circumference force you to be more squareish since a squre has the lowest circumference (of any rectangle) for any given area
22:50:16 <ais523> fizzie: actually, something that I've been thinking about in stack-based language design
22:50:18 <fizzie> Sure, in an asymptotic sense.
22:50:27 <ais523> is whether it's better for commands to leave values on the stack and force extra pops
22:50:32 <ais523> or consume them and force extra duplicates
22:51:27 <fizzie> I'm only really familiar with the latter kind.
22:52:04 <myname> ais523: if you really make something out of the bounding box idea, tell me. otherwise. i may think about it
22:52:26 <ais523> myname: I'm not planning to think about it much
22:52:28 <ais523> too many other esolang ideas
22:52:42 <myname> i barely have any :(
22:52:48 <ais523> there's one I'm thinking about that seems really promising as a new paradigm but that will be a pain to write
22:52:54 <ais523> either in terms of spec or impl
22:53:51 <ais523> it reminds me of functional reactive programming, but probably isn't identical
22:54:36 <Etaoin> is it possible to #define an array in c?
22:54:55 <moon_> Idk
22:54:57 <ais523> Etaoin: your question is a little confused
22:55:01 <ais523> you might want to clarify what you mean
22:55:05 <moon_> I dont even get what our talking about ^_^
22:55:06 <ais523> note that #define is a textual substitution
22:55:18 <ais523> that runs before the rest of the program is parsed
22:55:27 <ais523> so you can certainly use #define to construct parts of an array declaration, or the like
22:55:32 <Etaoin> yeah I'm daft NEVER MIND haha
22:57:36 <fizzie> Compound literals might also be relevant in whatever the underlying context there was.
22:58:22 <izabera> Etaoin: #define array(x) int array[x];
22:58:23 <pikhq> ais523: Well, ish. You can't really get arbitrary strings out of it, "just" arbitrary tokens.
22:58:24 <izabera> tadaa
22:58:37 <pikhq> (mind, the distinction is... silly and pedantic)
22:59:08 <ais523> pikhq: actually I ran into practical problems with that on mingw
22:59:18 <ais523> I have a macro that stringizes its argument
22:59:21 <Etaoin> I just forgot macro functions aren't actually functions that run at compile time :)
22:59:22 <ais523> and am using it like this:
22:59:31 <ais523> stringize(C:\Users\ais523)
22:59:43 <ais523> this textually becomes "C:\Users\ais523" which doesn't parse
22:59:56 <ais523> presumably mingw is reasoning that as \ is not a valid token, it doesn't need to escape it
23:00:21 <izabera> it's just putting in quotes whatever you pass as an argument
23:00:21 <pikhq> Huh... I had not even thought about that.
23:01:23 <fizzie> izabera: Not quite:
23:01:30 <ais523> it still needs to escape "
23:01:33 <fizzie> 23:01 <fizzie> ,cc #define stringize(x) #x \n puts(stringize(foo"bar"baz));
23:01:33 <fizzie> 23:01 <candide> fizzie: foo"bar"baz
23:01:36 <fizzie> Right.
23:01:47 <ais523> fizzie: try that with a backslash escape inside the "bar" string
23:02:13 <fizzie> 23:02 <fizzie> ,cc #define stringize(x) #x \n puts(stringize(foo"bar\nquux"baz));
23:02:16 <fizzie> 23:02 <candide> fizzie: foo"bar\nquux"baz
23:02:25 <ais523> that's exactly what I expected
23:02:29 <ais523> (and IIRC what mingw did in my tests)
23:02:39 <ais523> it'd escape \ inside a string literal, but not outside
23:02:41 <izabera> i heard that c compilers are cheap these days
23:02:46 <izabera> so you don't have to query candide
23:03:09 <ais523> yes but even using the -x c /dev/stdin trick
23:03:12 <fizzie> The user interface is much more convenient.
23:03:12 <ais523> it's more typing than using a bot
23:03:14 <\oren\> Space Cruiser Asa has arrived at Duna! http://orenwatson.be/AsaAtDuna.PNG
23:03:30 <izabera> what are these screenshots?
23:03:41 <fizzie> Making a candide-style script has long been on my to-do list.
23:04:02 <fizzie> It does a lot of stuff not entirely apparent from the above simple examples.
23:04:23 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/candide
23:05:01 <Etaoin> https://www.facebook.com/mochadepressotogoplease/videos/650852988399077/
23:05:27 <ais523> fizzie: even with those examples, it's apparent that it's doing something special wrt main
23:05:38 <ais523> also I didn't realise that candide was izabera's
23:05:43 <izabera> it's not
23:05:53 <izabera> pragma- is the author
23:05:57 <gamemanj> izabera: the screenshots are of a proprietary interface to a complicated and downright insane physics-engine based simulation of the interaction of solid bodies that represent liquid, solid and organic-carrying vessels for the purposes of interplanetary travel within a fictional system.
23:06:02 <fizzie> I'd kind of want the fancy gdb integration and print-locals stuff.
23:06:16 <izabera> well, the actual candide is on github too
23:06:34 <gamemanj> (izabera: translation: the screenshots \oren\ is posting are of Kerbal Space Program.)
23:06:44 <izabera> oh
23:06:47 <izabera> much clearer
23:07:18 <gamemanj> (you can see it in the text at the top)
23:07:49 <izabera> ah written text, my old enemy
23:10:43 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't know the World of Goo people had made one of them programmering games as well.
23:12:27 <gamemanj> fizzie:?
23:12:41 <fizzie> http://store.steampowered.com/app/375820/ popped up in my "queue".
23:12:48 <gamemanj> on Wikipedia, "2D Boy" redirects to "World Of Goo"
23:12:51 <gamemanj> yes, really
23:13:04 <gamemanj> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2D_Boy&redirect=no
23:14:04 <Etaoin> world of goo is great though
23:14:22 <Etaoin> human resource machine too!
23:14:37 <fizzie> It could redirect to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomorrow_Corporation instead, at least.
23:14:51 <ais523> hmm, all these programming games
23:14:57 <ais523> and yet I still like BF Joust best
23:15:04 <ais523> (although I've played a bunch of Rubicon too)
23:15:16 <ais523> hmm, the common feature between those games is that they're both based on esolangs
23:15:24 <ais523> like, specific, named esolangs that existed beforehand
23:15:37 <ais523> rather than inventing one for the purpose of the game
23:15:41 <gamemanj> so, basically, you like esolang-based games
23:15:53 <fizzie> I liked TIS-100 even though it invented the language.
23:16:20 <izabera> why would they design a new language when there are existing well tested ones?
23:16:48 <int-e> "merged to World of Goo, developed only 1 game, all notability tied to that article" *shrugs*
23:17:07 <gamemanj> wow, Tomorrow Corporation's FAQ is really useful
23:17:30 <ais523> izabera: most esolangs aren't very well tested :-)
23:17:42 <izabera> good point but still
23:18:01 <gamemanj> in fact, I'd say that if reading their FAQ, make sure to have "format" implemented as something which more or less emulates the DOS version (by guessing which drive letter the drives should be)
23:19:03 <int-e> to be fair, the merge predates the release of that Human Resource Factory game.
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23:20:09 <gamemanj> Does it predate "Little Inferno"?
23:21:18 <fizzie> Human Resource Factory and Little Inferno both are from Tomorrow Corporation, not 2D Boy.
23:22:33 <izabera> \oren\: https://github.com/nojhan/liquidprompt ⏚ ⌁ 🕤 etc
23:22:39 <int-e> right, didn't read https://2dboy.com/ carefully enough
23:30:27 <quintopia> ais523: what are your thoughts on manufactoria
23:30:45 <ais523> I've never heard of it
23:30:52 <Etaoin> is it possible to define a logical not function from f(x,y) = if x then y else 0?
23:31:27 <tswett> Etaoin: you just did.
23:31:32 <tswett> Er.
23:31:42 <Etaoin> I did?
23:31:47 <tswett> Never mind, I read you wrong.
23:32:08 <Etaoin> you thought it said if x then x else 0?
23:32:20 <Etaoin> no wait that doesn't make sense either ^^
23:32:35 <tswett> Nah, I thought you were asking if it was possible to define such a function as f(x,y) = if x then y else 0.
23:33:04 <tswett> What sort of thing is x?
23:33:11 <int-e> Etaoin: f(0,0) = 0 means that if all inputs are 0, you cannot ever get 1.
23:33:24 <quintopia> ais523: implausible, but i'll take your word for it
23:33:46 <Etaoin> I'd need a built in not operation in f(x,y) right?
23:33:54 <ais523> quintopia: there are lots of things I haven't heard of
23:33:57 <Etaoin> something like f(x,y) = if x then y else !y
23:34:12 <Etaoin> or if !x then y else 0 maybe?
23:34:21 <int-e> also f(x,y) is monotonic in both arguments... another reason why this will fail.
23:34:30 <quintopia> ais523: it's just it seemed like the kind of thing people who hang out here would be into
23:34:46 <quintopia> and it's been around for...five years now? more?
23:34:48 <Etaoin> what does monotonic mean?
23:35:06 <quintopia> http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria/
23:35:33 <ais523> hmm, Flash
23:35:49 <int-e> Etaoin: x <= x' implies f(x,y) <= f(x',y) for all x,x' and y; similarly for the second argument.
23:36:11 <fizzie> Etaoin: If both x and y are just booleans, then f(x,y) = if x then y else 0 is just the same thing as f(x,y) = x and y.
23:36:12 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:36:58 <Etaoin> this actually makes a lot of sense, why do I never think any of this through ^_^
23:39:27 <int-e> Etaoin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_completeness#Characterization_of_functional_completeness may offer some inspiration (though you don't need functional completeness if all you want to get out is negation; negation is affine in that terminology.)
23:40:08 <Sgeo_> `unidecode 🤔
23:40:45 <HackEgo> U+1F914 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 9f a4 94 UTF-16BE: d83edd14 Decimal: &#129300; \ 🤔 (🤔) \ Uppercase: U+1F914 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned) \ \ U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE \ UTF-8: ef bb bf UTF-16BE: feff Decimal: &#65279; \  \ Category: Cf (Other, Format) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
23:43:21 <ais523> strangely, my client can render it
23:43:24 <ais523> despite HackEgo not knowing what it is
23:43:47 <fizzie> The Unicode database used by unidecode is a couple of Unicode releases old.
23:44:00 <Etaoin> not specifically negation, just looking for a single instruction "processor" with the simplest possible instruction
23:44:22 <gamemanj> Etaoin: BytePusher
23:44:40 <gamemanj> Specifically, the processor behind it, but you'll need the 16MiB of RAM to do much useful stuff with it
23:45:04 <gamemanj> Like, you can fit a small visual novel into 16MiB, in BytePusher, with music. (Actually the music's most of the problem.)
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23:45:47 <ais523> gamemanj: I take it you've tried?
23:45:57 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
23:45:59 <int-e> Etaoin: if you just want to produce circuits, nand is a popular choice. (There are only two binary operations on Booleans that are functionally complete by themselved; the other one is nor)
23:47:20 <gamemanj> ais523: Well, I didn't get around to trying to compress the music
23:47:43 <int-e> . o O ( sdeddesd )
23:47:44 <ais523> when I played music in a limited system (microcontroller, not eso)
23:47:50 <Etaoin> I know about these of course, was thinking of something either lower level such as defining a single transistor and using it as the only command, or something more high level such as a loop :)
23:47:53 <ais523> I basically expressed it as a list of (frequency, duration) pairs
23:48:22 <ais523> Etaoin: I don't believe it's possible to do useful computations using nothing but identical transistors
23:48:29 <ais523> you either need two different sorts of transistor, or to add in resistors
23:48:34 <Etaoin> who's talking about useful
23:48:50 <ais523> that said, there's such a thing as diode transistor logic, hmm
23:48:52 <int-e> `` sed sDedDesD <<<themselved
23:48:56 <HackEgo> themselves
23:49:14 <gamemanj> ais523: Yeah, except what was going on was more or less: 1. Yay, so there's a free visual novel that's creative-commons licenced! Let's port it!
23:49:17 <ais523> Etaoin: "useful" as in "not hideously degenerate"
23:49:36 <Etaoin> I repeat, who's talking about useful :D
23:49:39 <ais523> OK, DTL needs resistors to function too
23:50:05 <Etaoin> those don't seem that big a problem honestly
23:50:15 <Etaoin> just another variable to add to the function
23:50:22 <Etaoin> as in the resistance
23:50:55 <ais523> Etaoin: yes, but I was thinking more in the golfing sense
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23:51:01 <ais523> electronics golf
23:51:13 <Etaoin> does that exist
23:51:17 <Etaoin> and why not
23:51:19 <ais523> (the usual version I see, at least from computer scientists, is "n-channel FET" and "p-channel FET" as the minimum set of components)
23:51:23 <gamemanj> 2. Oh noes, the music is making things difficult! Solution A. Transcribe music to module format & write player? Too difficult, too much work, and CPU limits. Solution B. Lossy compression. Music sounds awful enough already, + too much work. And CPU limits. C. Lossless compression? Didn't occur to me at the time. And too much work, and CPU limits...
23:51:27 <ais523> (when working at the transistor level)
23:52:07 <gamemanj> (well, if either of those can be singularly made to act as a NOR gate, you should be fine with one)
23:52:32 <gamemanj> (... actually, then again, you need the occasional thing to add some gain to the signal)
23:52:50 <Etaoin> (not if the signal itself is completely simulated)
23:53:17 <gamemanj> (If you want to go with stuff that's simulated, then just work in logic gates)
23:53:32 <gamemanj> (If you want to work in terms of real components, then work in those...)
23:53:58 <Etaoin> (I would (but that's not the spirit of convoluted esolangs))
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23:58:14 <gamemanj> Etaoin: so your components act in the general sense of ideal FET components, with any additional rules you may set?
23:58:18 <gamemanj> That could be... fun.
23:58:36 <Etaoin> potentially
23:59:02 <Etaoin> I'll see how I feel about it in a few days
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