00:01:39 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:02:19 -!- augur has joined. 00:03:59 Well, what do you think -- should I change the CAPTCHA back to something possible to see if the filter's coping? Or maybe at some later time when I'll be around to watch what happens. 00:04:21 (By the way, did you notice we had a likely spammer come by on the channel to ask for help in creating a new account?) 00:04:33 fizzie: no, I wasn't here I don't think 00:04:41 can you give a date so that I can logread it? 00:05:09 Today at 15:00..15:18 BST. 00:05:23 Er, well, yesterday. 00:05:42 that guy who waited two whole minutes? 00:05:45 Logical today, as it's called where I come from. 00:05:54 myname: No, I think that was possibly someone legitimate. 00:06:55 This one wanted an account "to get information from this website", and left when I asked what sort of edits they wanted to make they needed an account for. 00:07:22 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:08:05 lol 00:08:58 Hmm, I kind of want to create an account. 00:09:11 But apparently it's impossible. 00:09:58 why is it impossible? we have a funge interpreter in the channel :-) 00:10:19 No, the CAPTCHA was changed. 00:10:23 ais523: I switched it back from the Befunge one to the "impossible" one when those two new spam accounts were made today. 00:10:34 ah right 00:10:43 in what sense is it impossible? it doesn't give any information that would help you answer? 00:10:47 Yes. 00:10:51 And it's a random answer. 00:11:07 So it's just a low probability. 00:11:08 I did let at least one person know the string when they messaged me and made sense. 00:12:48 -!- cemulate has joined. 00:14:02 -!- cemulate has quit (Client Quit). 00:14:29 I wonder if that particular visitor wanted an account too. 00:14:47 LO AND BEHOLD 00:14:49 $ inutility dd conv=swab,ucase obs=2 ibs=3 <<< abcdef 00:14:51 BADCFE 00:14:53 2+1 records in 00:14:55 3+1 records out 00:14:57 7 bytes (7.0B) copied, 0.000062s, 110.3K/s 00:15:19 conv=swab now works!!!!!!!!!!!!! 00:15:31 i know you're all excited for this 00:17:32 izabera: I was going to say "that seems like a pretty eso use of dd" 00:17:38 then realised there was a dd-based esolang already 00:17:51 :o which one? 00:18:51 ddsh 00:19:08 it is basically Bourne sh (not bash!) where the only program you're allowed to shell out to is dd 00:19:21 the CLC-INTERCAL maintainer wrote an editor in it 00:19:32 :o 00:20:02 well it's not on the wiki 00:20:08 impressive 00:20:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:21:35 ais523: Does that work in POSIX-compliant sh, or only the historical Bourne sh? 00:21:43 (they are not the same thing at all) 00:21:48 pikhq: I'm not sure 00:22:05 http://dd-sh.intercal.org.uk/ 00:22:13 Sadly, ddsh is not a very googlable string. 00:22:16 looks like the language is defined wrt Bourne sh specifically 00:23:50 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:25:23 From what I can see, it looks like it's also valid POSIX sh. 00:25:58 Which makes sense as the differences between Bourne and POSIX sh are mostly in that there's a few unusual strings that in Bourne wouldn't do anything but in POSIX sh do something. 00:26:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:35:14 -!- MoALTz has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:44:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:49:26 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:00:32 -!- augur has joined. 01:15:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:38:36 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:39:11 -!- augur has joined. 01:44:13 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:44:14 -!- tromp_ has joined. 01:47:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:55:29 -!- augur has joined. 02:02:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 02:02:49 -!- victo has joined. 02:03:12 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 02:04:25 ?. 02:04:25 Not enough arguments to @. 02:05:27 `? heck 02:05:36 Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh. 02:06:07 `learn Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh, or are darned for some other reason. 02:06:12 Relearned 'heck': Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh, or are darned for some other reason. 02:06:49 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:11:06 -!- victo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:11:28 -!- tromp_ has joined. 02:38:18 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:43:00 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:56:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:56:35 -!- tromp_ has joined. 03:04:50 -!- ais523 has quit. 03:05:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 05:08:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:24:11 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:34:57 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:37:48 [wiki] [[Talk:FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48925&oldid=48911 * Darkrifts * (+454) /* Answered question about loops */ 05:38:01 [wiki] [[Talk:FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48926&oldid=48925 * Darkrifts * (+86) 05:40:51 $ busybox dd conv=swab bs=3 status=none <<< 1234 05:40:53 213dd: can't swab 3 byte buffer 05:40:57 inutility > busybox! 05:46:06 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48927&oldid=48910 * Darkrifts * (+147) 06:26:20 -!- augur has joined. 06:28:25 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 06:33:55 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48928&oldid=48927 * Darkrifts * (+1313) 06:37:39 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48929&oldid=48928 * Darkrifts * (+400) /* Documentation */ 06:53:04 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48930&oldid=48929 * Darkrifts * (+277) 07:20:24 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:36:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 07:37:52 So I've read that Pokemon TCG is cheap. But does it avoid pay-to-win? Or at least have a short ceiling? 07:40:09 And is the online version better software than MTGO? (I'm assuming yes because everyone says MTGO is terrible) 07:40:38 mtgo is terrible but have you considered that all software is terrible 07:41:45 MTGO is a special kind of terrible. 07:41:50 But yes, I have considered that. 07:42:51 I forget why I stopped playing Hearthstone. Might have been influenced by my Hearthstone-obsessed coworker stopping 07:46:07 maybe it was the pay-to-win aspect 07:53:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:54:57 A lot of RNG in Pokemon TCG 07:55:26 Sounds like an accurate TCG version of the RPG, then. 07:55:50 * Sgeo doesn't care about the RPG >.> 07:55:57 Pokemon, I love you, but stop with some of the randomness. 07:56:58 1/8192 odds of something are a real mean thing to put in a game. 07:57:29 o.O 07:57:30 (odds of a Pokemon being shiny, pre-gen VI) 07:57:48 Well, who cares about shiny?  07:57:50 Gen VI tweaked it! ... now it's 2/8192. 07:57:52 -!- ^^v has joined. 07:57:54 shachaf: Lots of people. 07:58:08 Is it the same as in mtg? 07:58:27 Where it's purely cosmetic? Yes. 07:58:47 Then I don't care. 07:59:03 Let them make their money from hats. 07:59:27 That's my stance on it. I've caught some shiny Pokemon, but I am *not* gonna spend any time trying to find 'em. 08:00:05 Keep in mind, the RPGs... don't have anything like a pay-money-to-get-things mechanic. 08:00:31 Aside from, well, buying the games. 08:02:31 Hmm. This tutorial would be terrible for colorblind non-Pokemon players 08:02:40 It's asking me to find the energy it asks for 08:02:45 http://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-tcg/play-online/tutorial/ 08:03:00 Oh it's actually hilighting the correct answer 08:03:05 I think this tutorial is for kids 08:03:25 That is the primary audience of nearly everything in the franchise. 08:12:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:12:51 -!- ^^v has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:21:16 -!- tromp_ has joined. 08:22:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:25:11 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:26:02 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:34:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 08:44:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:08:29 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:13:27 -!- ^^v has joined. 09:18:18 -!- ^^v has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:25:07 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:25:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 09:42:09 ...trump just bragged about how humble he is. 09:42:21 That's, like, the kind of thing I use as joke fodder 10:09:07 Are there any cthonic prayers besides Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn? 10:21:23 -!- tromp_ has joined. 10:25:34 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 10:44:01 hppavilion[1]: he obviously doesn't have the same background as you do. what's an overused joke to you might be a great serious innovation to him 10:44:33 LKoen: Yes, but bragging about humbility is absurd in any background 10:45:05 well, obviously he hasn't had the same training as you in the subtle art of logical reasoning 10:45:31 or maybe he's not quite sure of the meaning of humility but thought it sounded cool 10:57:55 -!- uberBear has joined. 11:02:52 -!- uberBear has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:19:03 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 11:22:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:34:16 -!- boily has joined. 11:34:39 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:37:44 I think I'll change the esolangs.org CAPTCHA back to the Befunge one, to see if ais523's new filter is catching the spam. Now that I'm mostly around to monitor the situation. 11:57:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:06:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:09:19 -!- atrapado has joined. 12:26:59 tromp: btw I convinced Isabelle that your CL fixed point combinator is a fixed point combinator, modulo a tiny encoding trick (I'm using a fresh constant instead of an arbitrary CL term for the equation `Tx = `x`Tx, and I have not proved the corresponding closure of rewriting under substitution) 12:30:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CONTEST CHICKEN). 12:38:04 -!- tromp_ has joined. 12:39:06 -!- MoALTz has joined. 12:42:56 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:04:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:20:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:39:23 -!- Vorpal has joined. 13:39:23 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 13:39:23 -!- Vorpal has joined. 14:05:51 -!- tromp_ has joined. 14:20:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:24:59 [wiki] [[Talk:Spoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48932&oldid=37343 * Erikkonstas * (+113) /* Interpreter? */ new section 14:29:19 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:47:47 int-e: i didnt realize that was a challenge. given how easy it is with a few equations 14:48:00 hmmm, Category: low-level added ... where was that policy about new categories? <-- Esolang:Policy hth 14:49:22 -!- Guest7241 has joined. 14:50:42 hm, boiled fizzie 14:50:57 @metar ENVA 14:50:58 ENVA 191320Z 25011KT CAVOK 18/11 Q1015 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 29008KT 14:51:14 @metar EGLL 14:51:15 EGLL 191320Z AUTO 16011KT 9999 NCD 32/14 Q1016 14:51:17 Very much so. 14:51:34 he's alive! 14:51:52 There's air conditioning at work. 14:51:58 I may never leave the building. 14:52:02 aha 14:52:17 @metar ESSB 14:52:17 ESSB 191320Z 30006KT 270V350 CAVOK 22/07 Q1017 14:54:15 * oerjan is trying out the automated hydra. 14:54:41 > 50000 heads so far. it's really an astoundingly bad strategy. 14:54:43 :1:62: 14:54:43 parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets) 14:54:46 oops 14:55:05 automated hydra? 14:55:24 http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml using the automated play 14:55:43 manually, i've made it in less than 300. 14:55:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:56:47 it always chooses the leftmost head, which is about the worst thing you can do because it almost never prunes the oldest branch. 14:57:37 and also, when it does, there will be a _lot_ of room for new junk to appear. 14:58:19 tromp: it's not much of a challenge... I'm dabbling. But it's not completely trivial to incorporate a rewriting strategy into a proof... and I didn't want to list all the intermediate steps. 14:58:29 the second oldest branch is getting small though, so maybe soon another cut. 14:59:29 tromp: so the fun part was to get the machinery to the point where http://lpaste.net/7970676195693953024 works. 14:59:37 hm the second oldest branch exploded, but has no direness left. 15:02:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 15:03:04 i guess i'm really talking about the oldest branch of the oldest branch. 15:03:13 the challenge will be in proving that no smaller combinator works 15:04:15 Hm, tricky 15:05:23 <\oren\> Just cut off the highest leftmost head 15:05:39 <\oren\> highest first, then pickleftmost at that level 15:06:52 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:07:30 But direness is important to avoid it exploding in complexity 15:08:10 <\oren\> but dire heads are always right of normal ones 15:08:31 Oh hm 15:08:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:09:18 my manual strategy is basically never to take a dire one unless everything on top of it is pruned first. i may reconsider that, though. 15:09:48 (since i haven't tested what happens when i don't) 15:09:51 <\oren\> beat it 15:09:59 <\oren\> 539 heads 15:10:05 ah 15:10:19 not my best but better than my average. 15:10:31 <\oren\> highest level, leftmost on that level 15:11:02 * oerjan will try something like that when this automated eventually stops 15:11:52 note that afaict a lot of the strategy depends on the program having a limit to how much junk it will produce simultaneously. 15:12:17 otherwise it would obviously go on for >>> heat death 15:13:53 shachaf: yes I have pooches! 15:24:04 ah now the oldest branch has only the dire subbranch left 15:29:52 -!- tromp_ has joined. 15:31:35 -!- MoALTz has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 15:34:11 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:41:49 I'll be going to both of those places, and they seem hot. :/ <-- on the basis of a single sample, i can confirm that boston is hot hth 15:46:35 Currently, yes, but it is also often cold 15:46:49 NOT IN MY EXPERIENCE 15:51:45 -!- centrinia has joined. 15:55:34 the mathematical type of hydras eh 15:58:23 @tell ais523 afaict your new filter says it depends on title but actually depends on entire article, is that intended? 15:58:23 Consider it noted. 16:10:58 fizzie: for future reference, the spambots were creating pages and renaming them in order to hide the pages from the page creation log <-- hm that might explain why you got the google warning 16:11:10 fizzie: ^ 16:12:56 makes more sense than google happening to catch it during the spam itself. 16:14:14 Taneb: What's the advantage of Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download over Binary Lambda Calculus? <-- readability, duh 16:16:19 @ping 16:16:19 pong 16:16:32 6uod 16:23:42 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:24:39 Google warning? 16:26:22 <\oren\> @ding 16:26:22 pong 16:26:25 <\oren\> @bing 16:26:25 pong 16:26:31 <\oren\> this upsets me 16:26:51 <\oren\> @ting 16:26:51 pong 16:26:56 <\oren\> @ring 16:26:56 pong 16:27:22 <\oren\> @marco 16:27:22 Unknown command, try @list 16:27:48 <\oren\> fix this 16:28:14 <\oren\> `? ping 16:29:55 ping? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:31:16 FireFly: after the spam flood, fizzie got an email from google's spam detection whatever saying they'd tagged the wiki for spam. 16:32:03 Ah, I see 16:32:39 <\oren\> this upsets me <-- just learn haskell and submit a pull request to fix it hth 16:33:41 int-e: do commands in lambdabot have access to the uncorrected command name they were called with? 16:34:08 if so, it should be relatively simple. 16:34:18 @sting 16:34:19 pong 16:34:38 except maybe what to do if the i is missing. 16:35:08 @ping hi 16:35:08 pong 16:35:26 maybe it should just s/i/o/ to the whole command 16:37:14 @gung hi 16:37:14 Maybe you meant: run ping bug 16:37:18 bah 16:37:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:38:08 @sing song 16:38:08 pong 16:38:31 oerjan: I don't think so 16:38:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 16:38:43 hm 16:39:06 but I have not checked... 16:39:32 ...it's quite possible actually that they get access to the whole IRC message and then they could parse it again themselves 16:39:55 well that would break in @@ stuff. 16:40:00 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:40:17 @echo 16:40:17 echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo"]} target:#esoteric rest:"" 16:40:32 @@ @show @echo 16:40:32 "echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = \"freenode\", ircMsgLBName = \"lambdabot\", ircMsgPrefix = \"oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no\", ircMsgCommand = \"PRIVMSG\", ircMsgParams = [\"#esoteric\",\":@@ @show @echo\"]} target:#esoteric rest:\"\"" 16:41:05 well, might be close enough. 16:42:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:45:55 -!- gamemanj has joined. 16:52:49 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 16:53:05 What was the language where I could redefine literals called? 16:53:14 LET 2 = 3 16:53:20 > 2+2 16:53:22 4 16:53:22 FORTE 16:53:22 6 16:53:34 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:53:44 oerjan, thanks 16:54:16 you're welcome 17:06:45 got it in 1101 heads 17:07:04 a few missteps. haven't got the strategy yet. 17:08:38 why doesnt that page give a proof? i've never seen a proof involving a hydra with dire heads. 17:09:26 i don't know either 17:11:31 i assume you have to define an ordinal for branches somehow. 17:16:48 GolfScript famously lets you do that, too 17:17:32 "3:2;" and then "2 2+" prints 6 17:18:36 quintopia: maybe there's a bachelor thesis for someone 17:19:54 quintopia: which page? 17:20:13 SopaXorzTaker: some dialects of FORTRAN I think 17:22:04 yay oldest branch finally got some pruning. which increased its direness, but anyway. 17:22:21 (~ 56000 cuts) 17:22:38 oerjan: with the leftmost strategy? 17:22:39 i didn't get it in the first place 17:22:41 myname: surely it's a known result 17:22:52 int-e: the automatic one, yeah 17:23:04 i randonly clicked anywhere and made exactly one initial change 17:26:45 nice to see some framework-free javascript code... 17:27:01 (on the hydra page) 17:27:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:28:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:28:32 int-e: I think most of David's javascript toys (he has quite a few) are like that 17:29:10 gah 17:29:13 ... wrong channel 17:30:18 -!- tromp_ has joined. 17:30:33 hmm, maybe I should make an svg version of http://int-e.eu/~bf3/squares/view.html :)\ 17:32:10 and maybe a version that uses the history less aggressively, hmm 17:33:04 int-e: hmm, what's that? 17:33:48 b_jonas: there's a "back" link at the top with explanations... it's about tiling rectangles with the minimum number of squares. 17:34:01 or rather, browsing the tilings. 17:34:08 int-e: I see 17:34:37 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:36:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 17:36:21 quintopia: 876 heads cut off in my first try 17:36:30 -!- uberBear has joined. 17:36:31 -!- uberBear has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 17:36:43 apparently a normal head segment should only be cut if it's a top depth 17:38:56 int-e: wait, when you say "Ed Pegg provided results up to n,m ≤ 160!" then the exclamation mark doesn't denote a factorial, right? 17:39:24 I guess it can't, because there are much smaller numbers than factorial(160) in the next lines 17:39:51 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 17:41:27 > x 17:41:28 x 17:41:32 whaet 17:41:37 > x + y^2 17:41:39 x + y * y 17:41:48 > print 13 17:41:49 17:41:55 Heh 17:42:07 > help 17:42:09 Not in scope: ‘help’ 17:42:21 > help + unhelp^2 17:42:22 Not in scope: ‘help’Not in scope: ‘unhelp’ 17:42:28 > w 17:42:30 w 17:42:33 > t 17:42:35 t 17:42:36 > th 17:42:37 Not in scope: ‘th’ 17:42:37 Perhaps you meant one of these: 17:42:37 ‘h’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect), 17:42:38 @help 17:42:38 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 17:44:34 rntz: the single letters have been defined as a kind of symbols, but there's no real symbolic arithmetic. 17:44:55 > 2^x 17:45:02 mueval: ExitFailure 1 17:45:06 c.c 17:45:11 @help mueval 17:45:11 help . Ask for help for . Try 'list' for all commands 17:45:14 > text "help" + text "unhelp" ^ 2 17:45:16 No instance for (Num Doc) arising from a use of ‘+’ 17:45:16 In the expression: text "help" + text "unhelp" ^ 2 17:45:21 > text "help" + text "unhelp" 17:45:22 No instance for (Num Doc) arising from a use of ‘+’ 17:45:22 In the expression: text "help" + text "unhelp" 17:45:27 > var "help" + var "unhelp" 17:45:28 help + unhelp 17:45:30 that, yes 17:45:33 > var "help" + var "unhelp" ^ 2 17:45:35 help + unhelp * unhelp 17:45:50 > var "help" + var "unhelp" ^ var "exponential" 17:45:59 mueval: ExitFailure 1 17:46:00 > var "help" + var "unhelp" ^^ var "exponential" 17:46:09 > var "help" + var "unhelp" ** var "real exponential" 17:46:09 mueval-core: Time limit exceeded 17:46:10 help + unhelp**real exponential 17:46:30 ^ doesn't work because it's not a method so cannot be defined sensibly for its right argument of Expr type 17:47:18 (it actually does arithmetic and comparisons to 0 or 1 that always fail, thus causing an infinite loop.) 17:47:26 oerjan: right 17:47:33 well, it does work in the sense of 17:47:50 > var "one more than " ^ 9 + "one" 17:47:51 Couldn't match expected type ‘Expr’ with actual type ‘[Char]’ 17:47:51 In the second argument of ‘(+)’, namely ‘"one"’ 17:47:51 In the expression: var "one more than " ^ 9 + "one" 17:47:56 um 17:48:09 missed a var 17:48:14 > (var "one more than ") ^ 9 + var "zero" 17:48:15 one more than * one more than * (one more than * one more than ) * (one m... 17:48:52 > x^9 17:48:53 x * x * (x * x) * (x * x * (x * x)) * x 17:49:05 > x - x 17:49:06 x - x 17:49:10 > x - x == 0 17:49:11 False 17:49:12 Interesting selection of parens there. 17:49:29 > var"" ^ 15 17:49:30 * * ( * ) * ( * * ( * )) * ( * * ( * ) * ( * * )) 17:49:31 Indeed, I was expecting a foldl or so but I guess it's slightly more clever 17:49:39 fizzie: it treats * as left associative 17:49:42 when printing 17:49:45 > let a = x * a in a 17:49:46 x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x * (x... 17:50:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:50:06 oerjan: which is good, because it is left associative 17:50:11 FireFly: it's a divide by 2 algorithm 17:50:25 > var "y" ^ 9 17:50:26 y * y * (y * y) * (y * y * (y * y)) * y 17:50:31 exponentiation by squaring 17:50:39 Makes sense 17:51:41 oerjan: Oh, so it's "really" just (((y * y) * (y * y)) * ((y * y) * (y * y))) * y? 17:51:50 fizzie: yeah 17:52:08 and the identical subexpressions are shared. 17:52:22 they're just not printed that way. 17:52:52 > 2+2 :: Expr 17:52:53 2 + 2 17:53:15 huh it doesn't even do arithmetic when they're actual number literals 17:53:33 > (0 :: Expr) == 0 17:53:34 True 17:54:14 > var "0" == 0 17:54:15 True 17:54:28 oh it's precisely textual comparison 17:54:50 > var "0" == 0.0 17:54:52 False 17:55:12 > var "0.0" == 0.0 17:55:13 True 17:55:35 > var "0.0" == 0 -- for completeness 17:55:36 False 18:00:11 > let x = show x in take 10 . map ((+1) . length) . filter (/= "\"") $ group x 18:00:13 [2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024] 18:00:39 > a < -1 18:00:41 True 18:00:43 > z < -1 18:00:44 False 18:03:43 eek 18:03:49 > sort [-1,a,z] 18:03:50 [a,negate 1,z] 18:03:55 oh 18:04:04 curses 18:04:15 you figured it out too quickly 18:04:15 *MWAHAHAHA* 18:06:08 > --1 18:06:09 : not an expression: ‘--1’ 18:06:12 > - - 1 18:06:13 :1:3: parse error on input ‘-’ 18:06:16 > - (-1) 18:06:18 1 18:06:23 whaet 18:06:26 > -1 18:06:28 -1 18:06:31 > negate 1 18:06:33 -1 18:06:37 > [-1] 18:06:38 [-1] 18:06:42 > [-1,a,z] 18:06:43 [negate 1,a,z] 18:06:47 what 18:06:50 > [-1,a] 18:06:52 [negate 1,a] 18:06:57 rntz: different type, actual Integers behave sensibly. 18:06:58 hm 18:07:15 but a and z are of type Expr. 18:07:19 oh, because ghc hard-codes defaults for literals 18:07:26 as opposed to being like "which Num did you mean?" 18:07:39 rntz: no, that's not it 18:07:45 ? 18:07:53 it does in fact depend on which Num you mean 18:07:59 yes, that's what I mean 18:08:02 > (-1 :: Expr, -1 :: Integer) 18:08:04 (negate 1,-1) 18:08:25 yes, but if you don't specify a type it assumes Integer unless you say otherwise 18:08:32 right 18:08:32 *unless* it has to unify with something else that isn't integer 18:09:03 there's a warning you can enable for it 18:11:30 rntz: also it's not hardcoded either, you can change which types are defaulted to. 18:11:44 it's just not very common afaik 18:12:10 The default default is hardcoded. 18:12:24 default (Complex Double, Ratio Int) should be a hit 18:12:57 wait, add Integer to the end. 18:13:55 copumpkin: hipumpkin 18:14:58 or wait, Ratio Int would probably never be chosen then. 18:15:04 rntz: You read _Stories of Your Life and Others_ by Chiang, right? 18:15:21 oerjan: Obviously CReal is the best choice. 18:15:27 tru 18:15:59 no wait, Ratio Int can be chosen when RealFrac is needed 18:16:00 It's even compatible with the FFI. 18:16:16 b_jonas: It's an ordinary exclamation mark. 18:16:19 Which C type does it correspond to? 18:16:27 * oerjan swats shachaf across the channel -----### 18:17:16 is this channel one-dimensional or two? 18:17:22 (Or maybe even 4?) 18:17:25 in this channel, it's swat or be swatted 18:17:31 * gamemanj swats shachaf 18:17:35 `? #esoteric 18:17:45 ​#esoteric is the only channel that doesn't exist. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. 18:18:13 "free-ranging moons"? 18:18:14 i think that implies at least 4. 18:18:33 including time. 18:18:48 it implies there is time, and "north" 18:18:54 also digging. 18:19:02 So 3 dimensions, including time 18:19:15 and a center. 18:19:27 oerjan: does #esoteric exist in minscowski space 18:19:37 i suppose it doesn't quite prove there's an east-west direction. 18:20:04 I mean, you could imply it I guess based on that east/west would be the "default" for such things? 18:20:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:20:12 of course, since it doesn't exist, it has all the dimensions you want. 18:21:16 b_jonas: the reason was that he had the program running for months.. which surprised me at the time 18:21:54 afk until the evening sun sets below the neighbors 18:22:31 @time oerjan 18:22:31 Local time for oerjan is Tue Jul 19 19:22:31 2016 18:23:54 it's particularly annoying now when it's right above the roof there 18:26:32 oerjan: re hydra: i suppose an optimal strategy must involve knowing what rules madore uses to "keep the screen from getting too cluttered". maybe strategies like getting the tree to take up as much horizontal space as possible at a height where it isn't too painful? 18:27:32 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined. 18:30:31 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:31:47 quintopia: for an optimal strategy, you might want to decide what your goal is at first. is your goal to kill the hydra fast because you're Hercules, or to kill the hydra without using automation so that king Eurystheus can't find an excuse, or to keep the hydra alive for as long as possible to find an apparent counterexample to the hydra theorem, etc? 18:35:09 <\oren\> is the symbol for the integer gird (between 3 and 4) in Unicode 18:35:12 <\oren\> ? 18:37:33 b_jonas, this sounds interesting. How much chat log do I need to read to find out what the question is? 18:37:37 Also hi 18:38:08 Deewiant, there? 18:38:16 Vorpal: pong, 18:38:49 Vorpal: Yes. 18:39:23 Deewiant, With regards to the calendar in DATE, it seems my code explicitly skips year 0. But you could aruge that astronomical date numbering (which includes year 0) should be used instead 18:39:28 @google madore hydra 18:39:29 http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml 18:40:24 I was trying to remember who Madore was. 18:40:26 Vorpal: I think it concerns David Madore's game http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml which is related to the Hydra theorem which is one of those often mentioned few examples of easily mentionable theorems provable in ZFC but known to be not provable in Peano Arithmetic, 18:40:36 and is related to ordinals somehow. 18:40:38 But now I remember. Unlambda. 18:40:55 shachaf: and more. I think I even added a page on esowiki listing him or something. 18:41:08 Deewiant, I assume it is unspecified? 18:41:54 shachaf: the recent interesting developments in this area about ordinals is https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/large-countable-ordinals-part-3/#comment-81550 , comments on John Baez's blog where Baez wrote three entries on topics very similar to what David had written about earlier, 18:42:46 I'm still trying to untangle what happened in the comments there, because there are too few links, so it's not obvious which of David's articles are relevant 18:43:00 chopping merrily away at a speed of 200 heads per second... 18:43:08 Deewiant, I was also looking at handling negative julian day numbers, and that doesn't seem to work too well either. When it is less than about year -7000 18:43:29 Vorpal: Mh. Given that it only says "Gregorian calendar is assumed for calendar dates" it seems unspecified, yes. 18:43:39 Oh well 18:44:00 DATE is an rcfunge one? 18:44:17 Hmm I guess leftmost is not the most stupid thing one can do. 18:44:24 Yes, DATE is from rcfunge. 18:44:35 but at least http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.html (about the hydra), http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html , http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-01-16.2104.grands-nombres.html , http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-09-18.1939.nombres-ordinaux-intro.html , http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-10-02.1946.html are relevant 18:44:58 um, was that truncated? http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2013-01-16.2104.grands-nombres.html , http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-09-18.1939.nombres-ordinaux-intro.html , http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-10-02.1946.html are relevant 18:45:31 Now I feel like b_jonas has posted links to madore.org before. 18:45:32 Deewiant, Yeah I hope I remember to fix it to use the same calendar in both directions before you get around to testing that though 18:45:38 But they were in French so I couldn't read them. 18:45:49 and wait, I forgot the ordinal browser (whcih is linked from Baez's post already) 18:45:52 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 18:46:11 no wait, http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2011-10-02.1946.html is the ordinal browser 18:46:15 shachaf: yes 18:46:28 shachaf: http://esolangs.org/wiki/David_Madore 18:46:48 Yes. 18:46:52 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:47:09 shachaf: I'm a big fan of David Madore's blog really. I've been reading it for a very long time, but mind you, I haven't seen like half of it because that blog is OLD, 18:47:34 and for a while it's on the top of one of my external links page http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn on my homepage 18:47:55 quintopia: "getting the tree to take up as much horizontal space as possible at a height where it isn't too painful" sounds like about what i've been trying. 18:47:58 Anyone know if there is any property based testing framework (quickcheck style that is) for C? 18:48:12 I know there is one for C++ called rapidcheck, but for C I don't know of any 18:48:59 b_jonas: oh man 18:49:03 not sure about this disclaimer 18:49:13 -!- ^v has joined. 18:49:42 And there are also at least two old articles on this topic that are probably completely superceded and that I probably didn't link 18:49:47 It's complicated 18:50:13 <\oren\> is the symbol for the integer gird (between 3 and 4) in Unicode <-- yes, but good luck writing down its codepoint number hth 18:50:17 He also has several useful maths articles on the blog that aren't connected to ordinals and infinity 18:50:34 b_jonas, is the hydra problem solvable? 18:50:44 What's the hydra problem? 18:51:00 shachaf, the one you linked 18:51:06 http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml 18:51:07 What's the problem? 18:51:17 The hydra always dies eventually, if that's what you mean. 18:51:22 shachaf, defeating it? According to the title 18:51:25 Ah okay 18:51:41 It says at the bottom of the page. 18:51:42 Vorpal: solvable in what sense? 18:51:43 I only fooled around a bit with it, and it just seemed to keep growing 18:51:53 Vorpal: yes, it does that 18:52:04 but it is a game that always ends in finite number of steps, no matter what you do 18:52:07 @google goodstein's theorem 18:52:14 Vorpal: hth 18:52:19 shachaf: ah, that's what it's called 18:52:26 Ah 18:52:37 It's not exactly the hydra but it's similar. 18:52:59 rumour is, this is connected to how a descending sequence from naturals to ordinals is always eventually constant 18:53:08 shachaf: but what's this about dire hydras? 18:53:22 how are those different from non-dire hydras? 18:53:43 (and are there werehydras, celestial and infernal hydras, giant hydras, half-elemental hydras, etc?) 18:53:53 oerjan: have you seen the automatic strategy finish a hydra? 18:54:03 AH! 18:54:10 Hmm I guess leftmost is not the most stupid thing one can do. <-- it isn't? 18:54:19 http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html is the actual entry for the hydra game! 18:54:26 I've been looking for that for a while 18:55:17 oerjan: not sure. 18:55:23 -!- lambdabot has joined. 18:55:36 b_jonas: But it's in French, and therefore meaningless. 18:56:16 But they were in French so I couldn't read them. <-- rings a bell. 18:56:24 oerjan: it just seems that by strategically picking dire branches deep down the tree when the treep is deep should make things worse. 18:56:50 oerjan: but I see that this would prevent those from being duplicated later. It's a tough question. 18:56:51 oerjan: It was something about Hebrew grammar, maybe? 18:57:04 as the sun sets, the (other) neighbors start up their subwoofer :( 18:57:49 Anyway... The hydra currently has: 29 segments, 9 heads, and depth 7. Hercules has cut 175347 heads so far. ... still looking quite healthy. 19:03:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:04:45 oerjan: have you seen the automatic strategy finish a hydra? <-- not YET hth (it's currently paused at step 56888 although it _did_ make progress on the oldest dire branch around 56000.) 19:06:02 how are those different from non-dire hydras? <-- i assume the latter don't have the dire segments from the game? 19:07:39 and also, without the dire segments the proof looks easy: just give a branch an ordinal equal to { sum(omega^ordinal b) | b child branch } 19:08:25 ("commutative" sum, i guess) 19:10:13 int-e: btw i haven't experimented much with trying to cut dire branches eagerly, so i'm not sure if that would actually be worse. 19:10:42 shachaf: no, it was about not reading madore blog links hth 19:11:31 (24 segments, 11 heads and depth 5 here btw) 19:13:26 i don't think those numbers are that important. i think the "ordinal" size of the oldest branch is what really determines progress, the rest is just temporary junk that _will_ disappear as long as there's enough of it. 19:13:36 cutting dire branches eagerly is p good, except that it ends up making tall tall green branches, which take forever to clear 19:14:55 i do suppose using more height means there's more room for junk, which would slow it down. 19:15:59 assuming madore's algorithm is about actual fitting into space somehow, rather than just total number of segments or the like. 19:16:36 hm and i should be going 19:17:05 if a bettor can bet, why can't a debtor debt? 19:17:28 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later, sorry). 19:20:17 <\oren\> quintopia: because english is a crappy language that hopefully will die soon 19:21:30 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48933&oldid=48930 * Darkrifts * (+111) /* Arguments */ 19:21:51 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48934&oldid=48933 * Darkrifts * (+12) /* Arguments */ 19:21:53 <\oren\> I bet the programming languages and libraries with english naming schemes will outlive the spoken english language 19:22:14 \oren\, oh? What language do you think will replace English? 19:22:43 <\oren\> Vorpal: whatever English evolves into. 19:22:57 \oren\, and is there any indication that is ongoing currently? 19:23:42 I highly doubt English in one way or another will go away any time soon. Going to take several generations. 19:24:57 <\oren\> The fact I can't really understand certain American English dialects, indicates that the spoken language is splitting 19:25:25 Which sort of English do you speak then? 19:25:47 <\oren\> Canadian English. 19:25:51 Ah 19:25:53 I think that if anything the language is unsplitting. 19:26:49 <\oren\> History seems to indicate that written languages can remain the same even after noone speaks their spoken version. 19:27:13 I'm not a native speaker and I managed to understand most variants of English I came into contact with. Some are harder than others yes. I find Indian English especially difficult, and I have to deal with that (over video conference systems) at work. 19:27:29 The hydra currently has: 34 segments, 10 heads, and depth 9. Hercules has cut 500325 heads so far. ... still going. 19:28:47 isn't it easily going to go to ackermann numbers 19:29:19 ackermann, ackermann, does whatever an acker cann 19:29:41 -!- augur has joined. 19:29:43 shachaf: I have not done any anlysis... for all I know this won't finish before the heat death of the universe 19:31:05 ah the rightmost subtree changed. 19:32:07 http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hydra.png "proof" 19:33:01 (maybe oerjan can predict how long this will still last ;) 19:33:45 re: "proof" - the only thing I changed in the html file is the interval timer (from 750 to 5 milliseconds) 19:34:53 nog wgah'n ph'nilgh'ri 19:35:10 hppavilion[2]: what's up with the nick... 19:35:22 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1]. 19:35:28 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:35:38 int-e: Huh? 19:38:32 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48935&oldid=48934 * Darkrifts * (+1062) /* Documentation */ 19:41:08 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48936&oldid=48935 * Darkrifts * (+159) 19:43:31 `olist 1045 19:43:45 hlirtenff: Cthuvian for "frenemy" 19:44:15 olist 1045: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 19:44:52 shachaf: actually since the tree size is more or less bounded (thanks to a "magic" probability), this implementation can only be exponential in that target tree size... 19:44:52 HackEgo: stop being so slow 19:45:28 I wonder whether HackEgo being slow is HackEgo's fault or CoC's fault (they may be putting a lot of VMs on the same machine...) 19:45:53 ah... I was waiting for this... touch: cannot touch ‘a’: Read-only file system 19:46:20 (previously: [3193390.301619] Aborting journal on device dm-0-8.) 19:47:14 int-e, that sounds really really bad? 19:47:51 Vorpal: that's my usual experience with CaC (oops, sorry, bad typo/thinko there) 19:48:48 (Call of Cthulhu really doesn't deserve to be confused with Cloud at Cost.) 19:51:27 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:52:00 let's see if it still boots :P 19:52:25 -!- augur has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 19:52:30 oerjan: but, um, what's a "dire segment" then? 19:52:57 it's explained on http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml 19:53:18 ah, I see! 19:53:24 also, thanks for the olist 19:58:38 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48937&oldid=48936 * Darkrifts * (+301) /* Added section on errors */ 20:04:00 nice, it booted but the web server seems to have suffered... such fun... 20:07:06 what booted? 20:07:35 ... http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D 20:12:49 int-e, Cloud at Cost? What is that 20:13:30 Oh I see 20:13:32 Rather cheap VM host. 20:13:42 One time fee? How on earth does that work 20:13:42 I suspect it's a lie. 20:13:53 Vorpal: Poorly. 20:14:17 -!- augur has joined. 20:14:26 pikhq, yeah especially given what I pay for a not-quite-lowest-end linode, that price as a one-time fee is insane 20:14:36 Mind you, my linode is *rock solid* 20:14:40 shachaf: well, they just don't buy any new hardware is what I think. 20:14:44 I should probably switch away from Linode. 20:14:51 shachaf, from? 20:14:55 also, they have NO abuse management whatsoever 20:14:58 Yes. 20:15:01 shachaf, what is the issue with linode? 20:15:04 Is it one of those where you have a monthly cap of network use, if you transfer more data than that cap any month then you pay an expensive overuse fee, and there's no way to just ask in advance that you don't want to pay any fees so if you get close to the cap they should automatically shut off the network access or slow it down to very slow? 20:15:08 They have all these security issues, for one. 20:15:14 no people involved (just a few developers) = cheap. 20:15:17 shachaf, oh? I have not heard about that 20:15:34 you get what you pay for, or perhaps a bit less ;) 20:15:35 I often hear negative things about them. 20:15:41 int-e, still the electricity, IP block assignment and all other running costs? 20:16:01 "just a few developers" doesn't sound very cheap 20:16:03 Vorpal: as long as they find new customers, they will pay for that 20:16:16 int-e, that sounds like a pyramid scheme 20:16:19 int-e: oh, so it's a pyramid scheme 20:16:21 Vorpal: and from I read their main business is a telco one. 20:16:23 Vorpal: YES! 20:16:24 yes, what Vorpal says 20:16:31 I think it's just a Ponzi scheme. 20:16:44 -!- tromp_ has joined. 20:16:45 Yeah. I bought one a while back, but I have *not* been impressed. 20:16:46 well okay, pyramid, ponzi, something like that 20:16:56 there's a difference? 20:17:04 Thank goodness it's not an ongoing cost? 20:17:09 pikhq: I have... the QoS is soooo bad! 20:17:16 shachaf, what better option is there to linode then? Same price class, same performance class 20:17:22 Do you get money for your referrals' referrals or something? 20:17:35 The ongoing cost for this channel is that HackEgo is becoming increasingly slower. 20:17:36 shachaf, I looked at one that seemed really nice, that fizzie used. Forgot the name of it. Until I realized the price was in euros 20:17:48 I'm not sure. 20:17:49 (AFAIK it's on one of the CaC VMs) 20:17:51 Maybe Digital Ocean? 20:18:04 Or maybe AWS/Google Cloud/Microsoft Azure. 20:18:08 I don't remember how the pricing compares. 20:18:10 shachaf, I heard shit things about DO 20:18:17 I wonder if there's a Raspberry Pi colo. That might be an upgrade. :P 20:18:22 AWS or such is probably pretty good though 20:18:26 I'm on prgmr, they're pretty nice though I dunno how the pricing compares to other services 20:18:34 The reason I don't use Google Cloud is the free trial. 20:18:39 pikhq, I heard of such a thing in Sweden. No space for external HDD. Also they sold out iirc 20:18:53 shachaf, oh? 20:19:21 Well prgmr has quite a spartan site don't they 20:20:06 FireFly, seems slightly cheaper than linode from what I can see. 20:20:13 is it KVM or Xen? 20:20:16 Xen 20:20:22 Vorpal: They give you $300 to spend on Google Cloud over 60 days. 20:20:24 NICE. could not open mime types config file /etc/mime.types 20:20:31 Ah, linode started switching from Xen to KVM recently 20:20:36 Vorpal: I don't want to squander it, so I haven't even started the trial. 20:20:41 Ah 20:21:00 Vorpal: Which is a shame, because I want to use the plain old virtual machine service, which I don't really need a trial for. 20:21:10 What I'd want a trial for is all the fancy Google-specific services. 20:21:12 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:21:17 So really they should let me activate the free trial whenever I want. 20:21:23 Ah 20:21:30 In the end I'm not using it at all. 20:21:39 AWS and Azure have similar deals. :-( 20:21:50 shachaf: where's the business sense in that? you'd be willing to pay them then... 20:21:59 shachaf, anyway, so far I found linode to be really solid. And I guess you have as well? 20:22:02 Though, AWS's free trial is a year long and covers less. 20:22:04 int-e: What do you mean? 20:22:19 int-e: I'm willing to pay them now, for the boring service that everyone provides. 20:22:33 shachaf: I'm suggesting that letting you start the free trial when you want would be bad for business. 20:22:54 Or perhaps I'm speculating. Or joking. I haven't decided. 20:22:57 Well, setting it up such that I don't even sign up is also bad for business. 20:23:05 Or maybe I'm just unusual. 20:24:02 shachaf, I thought googles cloud only provided rather unusual environments? Like just python "web apps". Or is that google app engine? which is different?? 20:24:13 shachaf: what you're saying sort of makes sense. I mean, it doesn't matter whether it's the boring services or the interesting ones, but if you start the free trial but only use the *cheap* services and so you don't spend all $300 before the timeout, then that might be a waste in some sense 20:24:31 Vorpal: You might be thinking of an older version of App Engine. 20:24:35 ah 20:24:46 Vorpal: I think they still have that but they also have a lot more services. 20:24:51 shachaf, can you set up your own mail server there? Or do you need to use their SMTP sever? 20:25:03 because that was one thing for me. I want to run my own mail 20:25:08 I don't know. 20:25:17 @google google cloud smtp 20:25:18 https://cloud.google.com/compute/docs/tutorials/sending-mail/ 20:25:40 "Google Compute Engine does not allow outbound connections on ports 25, 465, and 587." 20:26:24 that's a good thing hth 20:28:26 shachaf, so not good for me then 20:28:44 Since I run my own mail 20:29:04 I specifically wanted to get away from google seeing it all through gmaik 20:29:06 gmail* 20:29:47 26.7 degrees inside. :/ 20:30:09 Vorpal: well, I tried running an email server on a home connection, and...: 20:30:18 GMail accepts my mail but puts it in the spam folder 20:30:22 Hotmail outright rejects it 20:30:27 Vorpal: So far, I've used prgmr.com, tilaa.com and digitalocean.com (in that order) for my VPSen. 20:30:32 I think Yahoo does the same as GMail IIRC 20:30:35 Vorpal: couldn't you use someone else (not gmail, but not self-ran) as a mail provider? 20:30:37 (but I'm not sure) 20:30:48 gamemanj, right, which is why I have a proper VPS 20:31:32 @google aws smtp 20:31:33 http://docs.aws.amazon.com/ses/latest/DeveloperGuide/send-email-smtp.html 20:31:33 Title: Using the Amazon SES SMTP Interface to Send Email - Amazon Simple Email Service 20:31:39 wob_jonas, I want to be in control of my own mail. That was the point. Then I might as well pay for a VPS and run other stuff on it too. Since all free email providers obviously need to have some other way to make me a profit 20:31:46 (i.e. profiling for ads) 20:31:50 Vorpal: What, you don't trust Gmail? 20:32:24 shachaf, oh I trust they will deliver my mail and provide a solid service. Certainly. But it is free. How do they make a profit from it do you think? 20:32:31 Vorpal: some ISPs give you a mail server as a bonus if you pay for net access, isn't that an option for you? 20:32:52 wob_jonas, sure, but those services are shittier than shitty 20:33:08 I think it is like 20 MB limit, POP only, no IMAP 20:33:11 Vorpal: (I used to work at Google on the team that runs Gmail.) 20:33:12 Nope! 20:33:31 shachaf, okay. Then you probably know how they make money from it, and can't comment on it 20:33:41 But I assume it is from targeted ads 20:34:02 And even with ad blocking, that profile they build of you can be used elsewhere 20:34:53 I don't think I can say anything that isn't public. But it's not a great business mystery how it works. 20:35:05 shachaf: I don't completely trust GMail either. It's not really the ads, but that they're a big company that can decide at any time that they don't need me a user and ban my gmail account for any reason, for they can afford some false positives when they're trying to ban actually malicious accounts, and if they do so, I won't be able to do anything 20:35:05 to get that email address back. I need a *stable* email address, one that is likely to work even ten years from now, 20:35:42 wob_jonas: Good reasoning. 20:35:45 GMail gives me that nasty red lock icon for emails that I send from my own mail server, I really should figure that out. 20:36:06 fizzie: Do you want me to write you an extension that disables the nasty red lock? 20:36:07 not necessarily at the same server, but the same address should work. ambrus@math.bme.hu is that stable address, since if that server goes down, I know who I have to bribe or threaten to fix the server, or to point the domain elsewhere if they really don't want to run the server, 20:36:10 Because I thought I set up opportunistic TLS on it, yet it's all "zem.fi did not encrypt this message". 20:36:25 shachaf: I'd rather just have it speak TLS to Google servers. 20:36:26 fizzie, I believe that is due to lack of SSL 20:36:40 wob_jonas: whoa whoa whoa, is that your name? 20:36:57 and also think that even without me doing anything, it's very likely that mail on that domain will be served for a long time in some way, due to other more important people having their mail there. 20:37:02 shachaf: yes 20:37:10 fizzie, set up so your server prefers sending and receiving to/from other servers with SSL when possible (opportunistic encryption) 20:37:23 Vorpal: Because I thought I set up opportunistic TLS on it, yet it's all "zem.fi did not encrypt this message". 20:37:23 Oh yeah you said that below 20:37:35 fizzie, and I just found that line :P 20:37:48 fizzie, postfix? 20:37:51 Possibly I just misconfigured it. Maybe it lacks root CAs or something. 20:38:00 Yes. 20:38:03 fizzie: just use end-to-end encryption hth 20:38:12 I'm sure it's something simple, I just never remember to look into it. 20:38:53 My university gave me a "forever" alumnus email forwarding address. 20:39:03 fizzie, something like this should work, replace your certificate paths of course http://termbin.com/ets2 20:39:07 fizzie, in main.cf 20:39:16 I should switch my email address to a custom domain name instead of gmail.com 20:39:21 But I haven't decided which domain name. 20:39:23 So anyway, I do use gmail, but I give a non-gmail email address anywhere I want a future-stable address. 20:39:25 I think there needs to be a few lines in master.cf as well 20:39:57 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48938&oldid=48937 * Darkrifts * (+164) /* Misc */ 20:40:06 (Foodtime.) 20:40:13 @time fizzie 20:40:13 Local time for fizzie is Tue Jul 19 20:40:13 2016 20:40:29 tizzie 20:40:43 Vorpal: Oh, by the way -- I changed the esolangs.org captcha to be Befunge instead of brainfuck. 20:41:16 `? vorpal 20:41:18 fizzie, http://termbin.com/ujog is from master.cf. The only relevant line I could see 20:41:22 fizzie, oh? 20:41:26 Vorpal writes software for boring machines. Really big ones. 20:42:09 Hm though that line appears to be about client to server 20:42:13 Not server to server 20:42:17 So may not be relevant 20:42:27 Vorpal: Here's a description I wrote for someone else: It shows you a string of the form 9NNNNNNNNN>\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ (where each N is a random base-9 digit) and asks you to provide the number a Befunge interpreter would output when given that. 20:42:39 Most of the mail to my main gmail address is public mailing lists by the way. 20:42:51 Heh 20:43:10 FireFly gave me a Befunge puzzle. 20:43:55 oh, right 20:44:16 was it hard? 20:44:24 fizzie, any recent panorams btw? 20:44:28 Not very. But it was slightly harder than you implied. 20:45:14 fizzie: whoa, I can't read Befunge, I have no idea what those things mean... 20:45:33 I think # is a trampoline, but what the heck are those backslashes? 20:46:13 wob_jonas, swap top items on stack 20:46:16 I think 20:46:25 been so long since I wrote a befunge interpreter 20:46:39 I was wondering if it's a mirror, but that wouldn't make sense there 20:46:56 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48939&oldid=48938 * Darkrifts * (+94) /* Errors */ 20:47:39 wob_jonas, befunge doesn't have those. It does have handle bars though for turning. [ and ] 20:47:55 Funge-98 has those. Befunge-93 doesn't. 20:48:01 Oh. True 20:48:03 wob_jonas: Backslash is a swap, yes. 20:48:05 I see 20:48:21 FireFly: HireyFly 20:48:25 hachaf 20:48:34 did you invent any good maths lately 20:48:41 The >\#+:#*9-#\_$.@ part is essentially right swap jump plus dup jump mul 9 sub jump swap if drop print exit. 20:48:51 and guessing from the > and the trampolines there's probably a loop there that runs both left and right, oscillating 20:48:58 Where "if" goes right if 0, left otherwise. 20:49:00 but I don't know which part turns back 20:49:04 It's the _. 20:49:19 `? befunge 20:49:20 befunge? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:49:31 `? funge 20:49:31 funge? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:49:32 shachaf: I haven't mathsed at all recently, to be honest 20:49:36 fizzie, wait a second... Isn't that program just going to ouput 0 and exit in the end? I see no output instruction prior to the _$.@ 20:49:40 >..._ is the traditional oneliner loop, with judicious use of #s when you need to do different things in different directions. 20:49:49 I see 20:49:51 Vorpal: Why would it output 0? 20:49:54 FireFly: what did you invent recently 20:50:13 Hm 20:50:31 I can't think of anything 20:50:39 did you invent any cute cat pictures maybe 20:50:47 fizzie, Hm... Where is the output decimal except right before the @? 20:50:53 I didn't; that's more zgrep's department 20:51:07 Vorpal: Nowhere else, but the top of stack is not 0 at the . 20:51:11 Oh wait I see now. Because it checks if there is a swapped \ 20:51:18 zgrep: please provide kitten pics twh 20:51:29 shachaf: zgrep.org/cats.html 20:51:44 what... 20:51:53 hint: click space, also try the arrow keys if you want to 20:51:53 (It's just a base-9-to-base-10 converter, essentially.) 20:52:03 Ah 20:52:44 fizzie: yes, I guess it's something like that, but does it also take a 9's complement for converting, or is that only for checking the 9 at the bottom? 20:52:50 zgrep: Seems like a nonobvious UI. 20:53:02 zgrep: You should add a spot of text to it that says how to use it. 20:53:20 shachaf: But then there will be a spot of text that says how to use it. 20:53:32 Sure, but it can disappear after you press space. 20:53:40 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48940&oldid=48939 * Darkrifts * (+428) /* Added section on creating for-like constructs */ 20:53:54 shachaf: I did find a silly bug yesterday, does that count as an invention 20:54:10 Actually I had already found the same bug elsewere before 20:54:15 elsewhere, even 20:54:17 FireFly: yes hth 20:54:33 was the bug that a program crashed on argc==0 20:54:40 shachaf: But that takes effort... I'm spending my effort on doing everything else that I'm doing right now. 20:55:17 that's so specific 20:55:19 zgrep: cats are so good though 20:55:28 shachaf: cats are better than instructions 20:55:28 No, the bug is that all innocents on Foresight items in Disgaea PC are level 1 20:56:08 whoa, game terms 20:56:14 Turns out it's because the item description field in one of the data files exceeds the width that the field is supposed to be 20:56:36 so it overwrote the next column with (string-terminating) 0, which isn't even a legal value for that column 20:57:18 FireFly, I concur with wob_jonas here, you need to give some context? 20:57:19 The PSP port of the game had a similar bug, but even worse because the bytes that went in the column were part of the text string.. which caused even weirder behaviour 20:57:29 well 20:57:32 zgrep: what if it showed more than one cat at a time 20:57:32 Just a moment 20:57:37 FireFly, what is this game 20:57:48 @google disgaea 20:57:49 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disgaea 20:58:01 shachaf: Feel free to make thy own ui. It just grabs a URL from zgrep.org/cats . :P 20:58:02 Oops, was that rude? 20:58:08 Sorry. 20:58:12 ah, tactical RPG. It makes very slightly more sense now 20:58:20 s/a U/the U/ 20:59:02 https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/710549067089252352 the "Rank" column is supposed to only take on values in [1..42] 20:59:18 (This is the older of the bugs) 21:00:07 It's.. um, well 21:00:44 I'm not sure if it'd be interesting to explain how it misbehaves since it essentially just boils down to numbers being off-the-charts 21:02:09 Anyway, you can see how the item description is cut off and the fields after it seem to have fishy values 21:02:35 -!- izabera has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 21:02:43 `assemble 21:02:45 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: assemble: not found 21:05:31 wait wait 21:05:52 did Primal Clay change at some point, and if so, was it a functional change? 21:05:57 let me check Yawgatog's archive 21:08:07 I heard there's a cat-collecting easter egg in N. 21:10:29 ...is that supposed to be an attempt to addict me to a game involving a ninja 21:10:33 or do I have the wrong N 21:10:38 Where I come from, uppercase single letters are always Android releases if at all possible given the context. 21:10:49 http://www.androidcentral.com/android-70-nougat-developer-preview-5-actually-comes-awesome-easter-egg 21:11:03 oh, they ran out of food 21:11:15 or not...??? 21:11:29 It's "Nougat". 21:11:41 The change I'm looking for was at Shadowmoor. 21:12:09 why are they using letters 21:12:16 But the bulletin totally doesn't explain anything. 21:12:22 the food makes people hungrier for the releases... 21:12:33 Because the name isn't made public until pretty late. 21:12:39 Is it no longer an effect that changes the copiable values? 21:12:56 What happens when they reach "Z"? 21:13:01 They'll run out of foodstuffs. 21:13:21 Android Zucchini, very tasty. 21:13:55 Maybe it'll wrap. Did Ubuntu already run out? 21:14:01 As in, what happens now if you Cytoshape from Primal Clay as the template? 21:14:18 Apparently they're at Yakkety Yak now. 21:14:47 Or will be, for 16.10. 21:14:49 So they still have Z for the 17.04 release, but then they're out. 21:15:09 "Yakkety"? Seriously? 21:15:45 Maybe they'll use letters other than ascii ones. 21:15:56 Or they'll follow with a left square bracket. 21:16:48 gamemanj: the N game is good too, though 21:17:31 "Yakkety"? Seriously? <-- is that a real word?? 21:17:52 Not according to WordNet. But I'm sure it's colloquial. 21:18:28 I've missed all these recent ones. Utopic Unicorn, Vivid Vervet, Wily Werewolf, Xenial Xerus. 21:19:17 fizzie, well since I go on LTS I miss most of them 21:19:26 How big is the Toy Story franchise? How long till Debian runs out of release codenames? 21:22:57 oh, interesting point 21:24:15 * gamemanj prepares a thwomp in front of firefly, and waits anxiously with a button... 21:24:34 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 21:24:40 That seems a bit overkill 21:24:50 oerjan usually sticks to a good ol' swatter 21:24:58 swatters are boring 21:25:10 Did you play "Spider and Web"? 21:25:11 if you're going to turn someone into a flattened mess, you have to do it with class! 21:25:13 That's a pretty good game. 21:26:04 <\oren\> I prefer to use an electric racket to kill bugs 21:26:24 <\oren\> much less messy 21:26:50 <\oren\> and you don't have to wait till they land on something 21:27:21 wob_jonas: The Pixar wiki "Toy Story Characters" category has 58 pages, though some are groups, and some aren't really that suitable for code names. 21:27:32 * gamemanj gives the thwomp button to FireFly 21:27:35 wob_jonas: Thought I'd certainly install Debian Woman on Pizza Planet P.A. system. 21:27:37 FireFly: Hold this for a sec 21:27:47 * gamemanj then puts a sign in front of the Thwomp, saying "firefly food here" 21:28:13 (And that category is for the first film alone, I think.) 21:28:25 * FireFly buzzes toward the supposed firefly food 21:29:06 * The thwomp activates on it's own because someone wasn't keeping the button deactivated, and gamemanj is thwomped. FireFly manages to escape. 21:29:24 phew 21:29:24 fizzie: I see 21:29:32 -!- izabera has joined. 21:29:53 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48941&oldid=48940 * Darkrifts * (+220) Added information on using Calcutape 21:30:00 (the intention was that FireFly would press the button and thus doom me...) 21:30:05 FireFly: did you play that game 21:30:06 Ah 21:30:10 N? 21:30:12 Yes 21:30:14 or fizzie 21:30:16 fizzie: so when they get close to exhausting that, they can start collecting money to pay for some new supplementary novels or something (new novels are cheaper than feature films) 21:30:19 fi* 21:30:21 FireFly, what game is that 21:30:30 Old flash platformer game thing 21:30:41 What? 21:30:55 Oh, sounds vaguely familiar now 21:30:56 Or did you mean Disgaea? 21:31:01 FireFly, isn't there an N+? 21:31:02 I've played that too 21:31:04 On steam 21:31:07 or something 21:31:09 Dunno 21:31:09 Or N++ 21:31:14 I've only played the original 21:31:30 http://www.freewarefiles.com/screenshot/N.jpg looks approximately so 21:31:31 Think there is a remake with more levels and such 21:31:41 Remember seeing something about it maybe a year ago or so 21:31:50 Yeah 21:31:55 Like that but better looking 21:32:10 FireFly, if you liked it, that might be worth checking out 21:32:26 FireFly: No, Spider and Web. 21:32:27 Hmm, maybe 21:32:35 (as everybody knows, N++ is like N but with classes and templates.) 21:32:56 FireFly, http://store.steampowered.com/app/230270/ 21:32:57 shachaf: nope, hadn't heard of it before but it sounds a bit interesting 21:33:05 May be available on GoG or similar, I have not checked 21:33:18 FireFly: It's TG. 21:33:24 And pretty short. 21:33:41 @google spider and web 21:33:42 http://eblong.com/zarf/zweb/tangle/ 21:33:42 Title: Spider And Web 21:36:33 by the way, efnet/#mtgrules tells me that the Primal Clay ability still modifies the copiable values of the type, subtype, ability, p/t 21:40:16 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:42:43 -!- Cale has joined. 21:43:38 there, this way (prefer the deepest head) the Hydra dies much faster... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hydra.xhtml 21:46:22 Another way to make it die faster is to make the auto-clicked 7.5 times faster. 21:46:42 clicker 21:49:08 and http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hydra2.xhtml is faster still. 21:49:33 shachaf: did you pull that number out of your hat at random? 21:49:45 int-e: what's the difference? does it cheat? 21:50:04 wob_jonas: no, it just uses a different strategy to select the heads to cut 21:50:14 int-e: No, I compared "autoInterval = window.setInterval(autoPlay,750);" with "autoInterval = window.setInterval(autoPlay,100);" 21:50:53 shachaf: okay. it seemed a bit unlikely indeed :) 21:51:28 int-e: one sort of cheating strategy to defeat the hydra faster is to start by clicking on "Restart" until you get a short enough starting hydra 21:52:15 meanwhile... The hydra currently has: 28 segments, 8 heads, and depth 7. Hercules has cut 1328805 heads so far. 21:52:29 (that's the leftmost strategy still going at 200 chops per second) 21:53:29 <\oren\> Argh! I've forgotten English grammar! 21:53:56 \oren\: are you sure you have ever known it? 21:54:14 <\oren\> I just legit wrote "This a circular dependency isn't?" 21:55:20 <\oren\> it should have been "isn't this a circular dependency" 21:57:14 <\oren\> but it didn't even look wrong until after I sent the email 21:57:40 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48942&oldid=48941 * Darkrifts * (+245) /* Misc */ 21:57:53 package "isn't this a circular dependency?" depends on "circdep" 21:58:08 package "circdep" depends on "isn't this a circular dependency?" 21:58:56 `? recursion 21:59:02 You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW 21:59:14 `? corecursion 21:59:15 * \oren\ mutters to himself "english is never SOV, english is never SOV" 21:59:17 corecursion? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:59:41 \oren\: it never is 21:59:45 Except when it is. 21:59:56 <\oren\> that't SV with no O 22:01:00 shachaf: I hope I didn't do anything too embarrassing in that Javascript code :) 22:01:43 int-e: I didn't read it. 22:01:47 Should I? 22:01:59 no? 22:02:14 You can send me a CL if you want to. 22:02:26 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: reboot). 22:02:59 `? CL 22:03:00 CL? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 22:03:19 computational logic, combinatory logic... I'm confused. 22:03:25 checklist? 22:03:28 pikhq: Is there a general-purpose word for a CL? 22:03:46 computational linguistics 22:03:55 [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48943&oldid=48942 * Darkrifts * (+235) /* Documentation */ 22:04:07 capslock centiliter 22:04:39 Common Lisp? 22:04:49 nice number: The hydra currently has: 0 segments, 0 heads, and depth 0. Hercules has cut 555 heads so far. 22:05:24 nice number: 16 22:05:36 so smooth 22:05:53 int-e: It means "Change List". In this case a CL contains code to be reviewed before committing. 22:06:01 But it can also mean code that has already been reviewed and committed. 22:06:26 oh, a changelog 22:06:39 Not really. 22:09:06 shachaf: It matches somewhat to the git concept of "commit". 22:09:16 Somewhat. 22:09:28 Particularly as used in Linux kernel development. 22:09:39 But the concept of code review doesn't really exist in git in the same way. 22:09:41 At least on its own. 22:09:45 Yeah. 22:09:53 Which is a shame. 22:10:23 I didn't appreciate code review until I used Google's system. 22:10:25 Though to be fair, that particular bit isn't part of P4's CLs, just google3's. 22:10:27 Now I think it's essential. 22:10:43 pikhq: whoa whoa whoa, you mean google[redacted]'s 22:11:00 Nah, that much is public knowledge. 22:11:31 I guess it is now. 22:12:03 wait, both of you worked at google? 22:12:09 It already was. I saw the presentation that was approved by legal and given to a bunch of students at RIT. 22:12:11 I didn't know 22:12:12 wob_jonas: Yes. 22:12:37 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:13:00 how many people here are known to have worked there? 22:13:10 3 or 4, I think? 22:13:23 Do you count interns and contractors? 22:13:33 How about people who are no longer in this channel? 22:14:22 shachaf: dunno 22:17:20 hydraz: What do you make of int-e's strategy? 22:17:28 do we know whether any of you worked on the super-secret military or medicine industry research projects that are so secret that you're not even allowed to say you're working on them? 22:17:38 `welcome hydraz 22:17:42 hydraz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 22:17:57 -!- tromp_ has joined. 22:17:58 wob_jonas: i can neither confirm nor deny htdnh 22:18:24 Whose stategy now? 22:18:39 oerjan: Hmm, I don't think I've seen "htdnh" in here before. 22:19:01 oerjan: Though it might be the most accurate of all the acronyms in that family. 22:19:06 hydraz: int-e 22:19:10 Bertram 22:19:38 strangely as a change I'm now working (not at google) on a project where the project itself is quite non-secret, so much that you can probably even find out what project it is with some clever internet searches 22:19:47 this is the first such project for a while 22:19:53 all the previous ones were much more secret 22:20:11 of course the details of this one are secret too, but not the project goals themselves 22:20:25 What is the project? 22:21:39 shachaf: just because I'm allowed to tell doesn't mean I want to tell 22:22:06 That sounds like a secret. 22:22:20 http://www.nerdcore.de/2016/07/19/live-action-futurama-trailer/ wat 22:22:27 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 22:25:44 The best way to kill a hydra is to flatten that tree into a list then kill it using foldr. 22:26:28 hydraz: yes, but that's not how Hercules kills the hydra 22:27:06 He traverses it depth-first parallely, I know. 22:27:17 hydraz: this time, Hercules wants a solution that king Euthingy accepts 22:27:45 The Indian variant of the legend is much worse. 22:28:06 that's why it's called hydrabad 22:28:27 I assume this Euthingy fella doesn't fork enough to see a parallel solution as acceptable? 22:30:21 Can the hydra dodge/evade? 22:30:38 Does it have invincibility frames? 22:30:49 Yes and I don't think so 22:34:30 hydrazello 22:38:12 -!- Guest7241 has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:46:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:49:18 so http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml is the ordinary hydra, and http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml is the dire hydra 22:50:31 the ordinary hydra looks so tame now... 22:51:07 * gamemanj cuddles the hydra~ 22:51:11 (well, one reason is that its depth doesn't increase) 22:51:45 killed it in 99 steps 22:51:59 poor hydra :( 22:52:07 it's revenge time 22:52:18 yes 22:52:19 it is 22:52:28 * gamemanj gets out a head-removal device, and aims it in izabera's general direction 22:52:38 D: 22:53:13 You will pay for your crimes against the ** As gamemanj did not know, the device was aimed backwards. ** 22:53:16 int-e: the gcd dragon is much tamer. That dragon is parametrized by two relative prime positive integers m and n. It starts with exactly one head. In each step, you can use an acid sword to cut off m heads (but only if the dragon has at least m head), or an ordinary sword to cut off one head, but in that case n+1 heads immediately grow (even if you 22:53:16 just cut off the last head). 22:54:33 Well, on the other hand, at least it can never sustain >m heads. 22:56:40 wob_jonas: ah, but the gcd dragon can survive an unskilled attack forever... the hydra can't. 22:57:00 int-e: yes, that's true 22:57:03 (assuming it has at least two heads initially) 23:10:19 <\oren\> When you cut a dire neck, that permanently decreases the number of possible consecutive dire necks. 23:11:08 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 23:12:03 <\oren\> similarly, the regualr hydra without dire necks can never increase in height 23:12:14 <\oren\> this limits its growth 23:14:04 -!- boily has joined. 23:14:50 <\oren\> Also, on the regualr hydra, the maximum number of heads attached to any node on the second highest level, can never be increased 23:16:39 <\oren\> so perhaps a good strategy would be to seek to ratchet down these invariants 23:17:33 <\oren\> attack the dire heads. attack heads with the most brothers first. attack the highest heads. 23:18:12 \oren\: I thought a good strategy would be to just look for a ready-made proof in articles referenced by http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html or http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-16.1534.ordinaux-et-hydres.html 23:19:34 The leftmost hydra has survived 1.5 million chops... I stopped there. 23:19:54 <\oren\> yeah you need to attack highest heads 23:20:23 yeah, I automated that (see above) and it works pretty well 23:24:36 <\oren\> the question is which rules should be evaluated first? 23:27:57 <\oren\> dire heads > highest heads > heads with most siblings? 23:28:16 <\oren\> highest heads > dire heads > heads with most siblings? 23:29:54 my best attempt weighs dire edges by 2 and normal edges by 1 and takes the (leftmost) deepest one according to that measure... but mainly it's just easy to implement and slightly better than the version without weights. 23:31:43 int-e: just try forking the staet, deleting each head, playing the game from there recursively, see which one leads to the fastest completion of the game, and delete that head 23:32:03 it's possible that the optimal strategy would start with creating a very wide subtree (which in Madore's implementation causes growth to become very much restricted) and then prune the rest before trimming that subtree 23:32:35 wob_jonas: how about you implement that and come back here with the results? 23:33:08 * int-e needs to sleep... and anyway it's approaching the point where this is no longer fun. 23:33:30 hmm, are we on browsers where the javascript random function isn't cryptographically secure? what if you break that and roll until you believe the hydra will roll favorably for you 23:34:00 wob_jonas: the code comes with its own random number generator... I guess you could peek at its state 23:34:05 <\oren\> the number of sibling dire heads can only indrease when you kill O-o=o heads 23:34:28 but good night 23:34:39 yes, good night 23:35:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:38:45 <\oren\> which imples that dire heads first might be the primary rule 23:40:39 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:43:31 <\oren\> actually, you might want to kill the LOWEST dire heads first 23:43:43 <\oren\> they have the most potential 23:45:48 -!- FreeFull has joined. 23:49:07 -!- deltab_ has joined. 23:50:11 <\oren\> yeah, something along the lines of computing the heads that are most dangerous and attakcing them 23:52:00 I assumed the ping was for olist? 23:54:24 -!- adu has joined. 23:58:28 <\oren\> hmm yeas... "seek to cut the lowest dire neck segment in the tree"