< 1468973048 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1468974010 0 :deltab!~deltab@cpc1-smal2-0-0-cust198.19-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1468974024 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1468974025 0 :deltab_!?@? NICK :deltab < 1468975042 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1468975047 0 :Akaibu!uid118096@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rrszaitxgjghbmfy QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1468975447 0 :myndzi\!~myndzi@cpe-45-37-163-41.nc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1468975486 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the svn poltergeist strikes < 1468975510 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :he\\oren\. the Ghost in the Repository? < 1468975515 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@massages-loud < 1468975515 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia asked 5d 12m 19s ago: how goes the courging? < 1468975515 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb said 4d 16h 14m 3s ago: I'm fairly sure I'm alive < 1468975525 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1468975533 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :has lambda been reset? < 1468975539 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow checking out a new working copy and copying my changes over solved a bug < 1468975546 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :could have sworn you'd already received those massages < 1468975548 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quinthellopia. no, I'm just not very esotericking as of lately hth < 1468975552 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1468975562 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, the ghost in the repository < 1468975600 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I definitely got yours, as I replied to it. I wasn't Tanebmessageacknowledged yet. < 1468975628 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why i hate untracked files. my tgz "repositories" always track all files < 1468975658 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you were the git h8r. < 1468975660 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :git is tg < 1468975780 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I have to say, at least git has a command to delete all untracked files < 1468975811 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :git clean -fd is fun :D < 1468975835 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :svn doesn't have any such command. instead you have to rm -rf project and then svn co "url" project < 1468975871 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which caused a phantom bug to resolve itself < 1468976011 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Untracked files is a stupid idea anyway < 1468976033 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your build process creates .o files or whatever, it should also delete them < 1468976060 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or you should have a make clean type command to run before checkin < 1468976103 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :untracked files is nice. < 1468976192 0 :myndzi\!~myndzi@cpe-45-37-163-41.nc.res.rr.com QUIT : < 1468976211 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1468978167 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1468979258 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@vps.jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1468979341 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1468979364 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, now I've gotten home < 1468979388 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to work on my font < 1468979621 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1468979763 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1468980738 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: ANOTHER CHICKEN < 1468982699 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can track my progress in a new way: http://www.orenwatson.be/joyo-kyoiku.htm < 1468982976 0 :Akaibu!uid118096@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-dwafzlpgzuatsljz JOIN :#esoteric < 1468983007 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: are you having a hard time tracking your own progress????????? < 1468983018 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta get other to track it for you now? < 1468983165 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well I was having trouble remebering what kanji I had already done < 1468983198 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm putting a list up on my website that I can look in < 1468983327 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and more importantly which kanji I need to do < 1468983651 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: I do hope you're targetting kanji that are reasonably used first. < 1468983680 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, so you are. Looks like you're targeting jōyō and kyōiku kanji first. < 1468983731 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I've covered all the kyoiku kanji from grades 1-6 < 1468983759 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately, to cover real-world Japanes text you need most of the list, not just the first 6 grades. < 1468983804 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though I belive most of the most *frequent* kanji are grouped up in there) < 1468983828 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah so I'm gonna do the rest of the Joyo, and then the ones for names, I forget what that list was called < 1468983863 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jinmeiyō. < 1468983953 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :With the jōyō + jinmeiyō you'll get tripped up on some literary text, but you'll *mostly* be fine. < 1468984055 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :eventually, not anytime soon, I'll try to do the simplified chinese characters... hopefully the chinese government has a list < 1468984147 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@115.68.131.49 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: probably you can start with IICore < 1468984163 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, simplified Chinese characters are enumerated. IIRC the PRC has a list of Unicode codepoints that software in the country must support. < 1468985104 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1468987293 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@cpe-75-187-129-201.neo.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1468988814 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-178-208-237.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1468989196 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1468989980 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07FOSCode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48944&oldid=48943 5* 03Darkrifts 5* (+52) 10 < 1468990056 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the slowest-growing complexity of an algorithm you can come up with? Something slower than inverse Ackermann? < 1468990262 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :log(inverse ackermann) < 1468990282 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I going to have to go through the same thing here that I went through in the other channel? < 1468990290 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:37 Do you have an algorithm with runtime that grows that slowly? < 1468990290 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:38 I can add "non-contrived" to the question to avoid that kind of answer. < 1468990300 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't read it in the other channel < 1468990311 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:39 But I'd even be OK with a contrived answer if it was significantly slower than inverse Ackermann (not just something you make by composing inverse Ackermann composed with itself like that). < 1468990317 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know. < 1468990363 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, maybe you can do something with shelves. < 1468991533 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1468991811 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-243-173.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1468991811 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-243-173.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1468991811 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1468992811 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1468992834 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1468993091 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1468993716 0 :nisstyre!~yourstrul@oftn/oswg-member/Nisstyre QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1468993780 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1468994632 0 :choochter!choochter@nat/ibm/x-uoulqvfxupzvhdud QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1468997776 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1468998421 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1468998650 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07FOSCode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48945&oldid=48944 5* 03Darkrifts 5* (+151) 10/* Documentation */ < 1468998972 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07FOSCode14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48946&oldid=48945 5* 03Darkrifts 5* (+612) 10 < 1468999299 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1469000054 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469000313 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1469000791 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1469001141 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:63f1:f49e:dd53:596a:5e15 JOIN :#esoteric < 1469001873 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've been spamming a few channel with similar questions, and got no answer so far. why does this fail for floats? https://ideone.com/gcOipZ < 1469003599 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:2c40:400::1:6e46 JOIN :#esoteric < 1469003908 0 :Cale!~Cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:75cf:9a95:1c70:419a PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Interesting, I'd expect it to have more instances of NO than that. < 1469004068 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C type compatiblity is odd. < 1469004073 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently it's not transitive. < 1469004102 0 :Cale!~Cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:75cf:9a95:1c70:419a PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just reading that here: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Other-Builtins.html#index-g_t_005f_005fbuiltin_005ftypes_005fcompatible_005fp-4246 < 1469004207 0 :Cale!~Cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:75cf:9a95:1c70:419a PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.cppreference.com/w/c/language/type#Compatible_types < 1469004208 0 :Cale!~Cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:75cf:9a95:1c70:419a PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1469004230 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it the empty paramater lists causing the strangeness? < 1469004238 0 :Cale!~Cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:75cf:9a95:1c70:419a PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's these caveats about default argument promotions < 1469004242 0 :Cale!~Cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:75cf:9a95:1c70:419a PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1469004247 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it has to do with -- yes, what Cale said. < 1469004277 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C9x draft section 6.7.5.3 < 1469004279 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the typo < 1469004377 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(adding parameter const float a in nullfunfloat makes them all yes) < 1469004471 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, a float would get promoted to a double. < 1469004474 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but i wanted a generic function pointer < 1469004504 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This parameterless function declaration thing isn't something you should be using anyway. < 1469004507 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's scow. < 1469004512 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1469004545 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :also i don't know what scow means < 1469004558 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? scow < 1469004648 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp. < 1469004661 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits scow < 1469004690 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan < 1469004721 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa whoa whoa < 1469004735 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :void f(c) char c; { ... } isn't the same as void f(char c) { ... }? < 1469004745 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to http://stackoverflow.com/a/1255818 < 1469004748 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a big scow. < 1469005234 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :(changing the empty paramater lists to void causes the corresponding comparisons to fail) < 1469005260 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn it i did the typo again < 1469005334 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that how they spelled it at your alma mater < 1469005352 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a direct pun on latin "mater" would have been better here < 1469005362 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :now i'm just making it look like i don't know latin < 1469005366 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :which i don't < 1469005379 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but cultured people know a little bit of latin and act like they know even more than they do < 1469005380 0 :choochter!choochter@nat/ibm/x-gnxzjjejdurajnwq JOIN :#esoteric < 1469005385 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'm giving myself away here < 1469005401 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ita vero < 1469005425 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome mitchs < 1469005441 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mitchs: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1469005496 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to go through the category theory textbook I've had out of my uni's library for like two years and actually do the exercises < 1469005545 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which book? < 1469005563 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks but this isn't my first time here < 1469005570 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, it's called Categories < 1469005578 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :By a chap called Schubert < 1469005579 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They all are. < 1469005609 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1469005616 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much category theory do you know? < 1469005638 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can get through chapter one and part of chapter two without any difficulties < 1469005699 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which chapters are those? < 1469005743 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chapter 1 is the definition of categories, isomorphisms, additive categories, and subcategories < 1469005772 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Additive categories in chapter 1? Odd. < 1469005780 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : void f(c) char c; { ... } isn't the same as void f(char c) { ... }? <-- no, the former promotes to int in parameter passing I believe < 1469005783 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 is functors (covariant and contravariant), dual categories, bifunctors, and natural transformations < 1469005788 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: Right. < 1469005792 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't get natural transformations in my head < 1469005827 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Spoon14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48947&oldid=48932 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+182) 10Just uploaded < 1469005831 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, why are you using K&R syntax though? < 1469005835 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is a reason it is bad < 1469005843 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: I'm not, but I thought it was the same. < 1469005847 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1469005854 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going to use it as a prank in my next job interview that asked me to write C code. < 1469005876 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, K&R promotion rules still apply to varargs (i.e. printf(const char*, ...) < 1469005878 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1469005881 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1469005894 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I think it's kind of elegant syntax in the C mindset of the world. < 1469005901 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh? < 1469005903 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the "declaration follows use" spirit. < 1469005912 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :You lost me < 1469005982 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, int (*f[3])() means that (*f[i])() is an int. < 1469006030 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And so int f(x, y) char x; int y; { .... } means that f(x, y) is an int, whenever x is a char and y is an int. < 1469006036 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, that was my theory < 1469006060 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And "f(x, y)" actually looks like function call syntax as an expression, unlike f(char x, int y), which looks like a syntax error. < 1469006066 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(As an expression.) < 1469006088 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh < 1469006089 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Categories were invented to talk about natural transformations. < 1469006147 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The original paper that introduced categories is kind of funny to read in that respect. < 1469006260 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: What do you mean by get them in your head? < 1469006353 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learn them to the point where they make sense intuitively to me < 1469006377 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aha. < 1469006384 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a whole bunch of senses. < 1469006515 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about this sense: Take a very small category, like the category 3 with three objects and six arrows. < 1469006524 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And look at functors : 3 -> Set < 1469006585 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are those? < 1469006639 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe you don't want this sort of thing right now. < 1469006714 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm working through the exercises in the book to make sure I haven't missed anything and that everything is clear in my head < 1469006722 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If once I've done that I'm still unsure, I'll get back to you < 1469006740 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :sgtm < 1469006979 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469007983 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, man: is it the old-style function definition syntax why we can't have braces optional in function definitions? < 1469008038 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because in all kinds of statements (if, for, switch, etc.) the body's just an arbitrary statement, but for functions it's always required to be a compound-statement. < 1469008534 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all mathematicians are crazy, but they're crazy in very different ways. I think it's a requirement for the profession. < 1469008554 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all doctors are also crazy, mind you.) < 1469008597 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it seems I was probably wrong yesterday. It seems it's not (yet) obvious to find out which project I'm working on for my job with some interenet searches. < 1469008962 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, We should make a version of C with indentation based syntax. Like python or haskell has < 1469009019 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell-style is better: It has a fairly straightforward translation to {}/; syntax. < 1469009028 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm I guess so < 1469009064 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Despite what __builtin_types_compatible_p might say, I'm pretty sure calling nullfunX via the corresponding funX pointer is undefined. < 1469009075 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1469009086 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :undefined as in it will work fine in gcc? < 1469009111 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, undefined as in "that might depend on CPU architecture and calling convention" < 1469009115 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it won't work fine if the function is using the Windows stdcall calling convention. < 1469009117 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: python would have a fairly straightforward translation to {} style too, only it already uses curly braces for something else which is syntactically incompatible, so you'd need to use some ugly tokens instead < 1469009129 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It won't even link, because the number of parameters (kinda-sorta) is part of the name mangling. < 1469009148 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in fact, the language docs describes python syntax in terms of tokens including newline, indent, and dedent tokens. < 1469009148 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :no name mangling in c so it's all good? < 1469009159 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the C name mangling. < 1469009161 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, um, on Windows there is in C < 1469009162 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes, python also uses semicolons in an incompatible way < 1469009171 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, Also it will still crash during runtime there < 1469009196 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooook this thing wouldn't work on windows anyway < 1469009214 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, I would suggest just using nullfunc(int ignored1, int ignored2) instead if you don't care about the arguments in some cases < 1469009234 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, slight correction -- since it's a function pointer, the name mangling isn't necessarily an issue. But it should still crash and burn on runtime. < 1469009236 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, anyway you are invoking undefined behaviour and it might break on some non-windows too < 1469009240 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is sort of like in some BASIC dialects, where a colon separates statements, but an IF cond THEN ... has any number of colon-separated statements up to the end of line as its body < 1469009248 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can't just rewrite all newlines to colons < 1469009256 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, better just to not do it that way < 1469009268 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wish I could write nested one-liners in the Python REPL. < 1469009276 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is made worse by those dialects of basic that have two different IF-THEN syntaxen, the one-line and the block one) < 1469009334 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you pay taxen < 1469009351 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, I think ipython kind of allows that? < 1469009357 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell is much better, because you can write everything with only braces and semicolons, without newlines or indents, and it's easy if you know what syntax tree you want to write, it's only sometimes hard to tell how braceless code you didn't write parses. < 1469009364 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, Or at least it handles enter presses much better < 1469009376 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: FWIW (since you mentioned a "generic function pointer"), any pointer-to-function can be safely converted to any other pointer-to-function (with a cast), as long as you convert it back for the call. So arguably anything (say void (*)(void)) can work as a generic function pointer in some sense. < 1469009381 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't one to write multi-liners, though. < 1469009453 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :("A pointer to a function of one type may be converted to a pointer to a function of another type and back again; the result shall compare equal to the original pointer. If a converted pointer is used to call a function whose type is not compatible with the referenced type, the behavior is undefined." C11 6.3.2.3p8) < 1469009501 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: So why is it undefined behavior? < 1469009513 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: meh, those rules for pointer-to-function being convertible (and pointer-to-struct being not only convertible but also have the same representation) are just for efficiency. if you are a theorist, you can always just write typesafe code by allocating the right kind of pointer somewhere, and referencing it only indirectly when you don't know its type. < 1469009517 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those function types seem to be compatible. < 1469009667 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "For two function types to be compatible -- If one type has a parameter type list and the other type is specified by a function definition that contains a (possibly empty) identifier list, both shall agree in the number of parameters, --" (C11 6.7.6.3p15) < 1469009712 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here e.g. funint has a parameter type list, nullfunint is specified by a function definition that contains an (empty) identifier list, and they don't agree in the number of parameters. < 1469009722 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they can't be compatible. < 1469009756 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you guys are saying that this thing may be slightly unportable https://arin.ga/oogx5Q/raw < 1469009785 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :With all that __builtin_crap, it's by nature unportable. < 1469009810 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works in gcc and clang < 1469009820 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course those are the only two compilers in the world. < 1469009851 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, time(NULL) % 2 is unportable too. < 1469009853 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's all the portability i care about for this thing < 1469009857 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh come on < 1469009886 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :time_t can be any real type (actually even complex before C11), and the operands of % must be integer types (it's a constraint violation if not). < 1469009900 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's really not important now -_- < 1469009914 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, you're the one who said "portable". < 1469009936 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was talking about the you know what part < 1469009950 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, don't knock imaginary time < 1469009977 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where's the original code? < 1469009987 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1469010014 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because those are definitions, not declarations. < 1469010033 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or something. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place. < 1469010116 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was looking at "If one type has a parameter type list and the other type is specified by a function declarator that is not part of a function definition and that contains an empty identifier list, the parameter list shall not have an ellipsis terminator and the type of each parameter shall be compatible with the type that results from the application of the default argument promotions." < 1469010165 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. It would (probably) be okay to have a declaration of int blah(); and a function pointer of int (*p)(int a, int b) = blah; and then call p(1, 2) if the blah function actually did take two ints. < 1469010176 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :But here the corresponding definition is one which takes no parameters. < 1469010188 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww, pre-ANSI style functions < 1469010193 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :best to juts leave those alone < 1469010214 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are great, for the reason I explained above. < 1469010220 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469010223 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except they don't work the way I thought, so that's scow. < 1469010226 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(unless you're like deliberately trying to do eso, of course) < 1469010232 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any other country, do people usually join the 1.60934 km high club? < 1469010297 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if they're 22.86cm nails fans < 1469010313 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ew < 1469010332 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't sound nearly as bad when it's in units i don't understand < 1469010356 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: Anyway, yes, it can be unportable. Even in gcc, for some contexts. (See https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.5.3/gcc/i386-and-x86_002d64-Options.html -mrtd: "Use a different function-calling convention, in which functions that take a fixed number of arguments return with the ret num instruction, which pops their arguments while returning. -- In addition, seriously incorrect code will ... < 1469010362 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :... result if you call a function with too many arguments.") < 1469010401 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might be portable enough for your purposes. < 1469010428 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1469010915 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:63f1:f49e:dd53:596a:5e15 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1469010957 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469011222 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1469011366 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ping < 1469011410 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1469011421 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo 6JMYWsY9kHzLZUFffWSTViYUTmDbBZzx0nz/UI7uuuw < 1469011432 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :6JMYWsY9kHzLZUFffWSTViYUTmDbBZzx0nz/UI7uuuw < 1469011791 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1469012849 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, what do you mean with "scow"? < 1469012969 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, < 1469012976 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about non-x86? < 1469012993 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is the ARM and MIPS calling conventions? < 1469013033 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: "the scow of X" means something like "the worst speciment of X" < 1469013048 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, is that a common wording? < 1469013051 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, oh and what is your end goal with all of this? < 1469013053 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not very. < 1469013073 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1469013086 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like that question because then my end goal never seems importan enough < 1469013101 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1469013134 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, I'm just curious you are trying to do something this seemingly over-complicated (in addition to being non-portable) < 1469013166 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanted to make a generic no-op function that i can assign to a function pointer < 1469013189 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, for what purpose though? Or just as an exercise in and of itself? < 1469013191 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i can just call the function with whatever argument and it will do nothing < 1469013462 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :they sorta do it here https://github.com/9fans/plan9port/blob/master/src/cmd/dd.c but it's not at all generic < 1469013484 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :their null and cnull functions do something very specific < 1469013492 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just wanted some no-op < 1469013672 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's a useful idea, and if one could just assign NULL to a function pointer and then call that function i'd use that < 1469013801 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, yeah it sounds nice. Sadly I think C is the wrong language to do that portably. Also what about the return value? It only makes sense for functions returning void doesn't it < 1469013807 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I.e. functions with side effects < 1469013837 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :my no ops just return 0 < 1469013858 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera, what for a function returning a struct on the stack though? < 1469013859 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah it's more useful if you don't care about the return value < 1469013872 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's work in progress < 1469013919 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think this would be easier in C++ actually, At least C++11 and later. Since then you could probably just use a lambda wherever to do this. < 1469014483 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469014623 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-088-066-188-188.088.066.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1469015305 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1469016255 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469016439 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: The x86-32 stdcall one is the only widespread one I know of where extra arguments aren't silently ignored. < 1469016466 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly because variable-argument functions are inherently problematical for the callee clean-up scheme. < 1469016474 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And C is all about varargs.) < 1469017556 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: BOUQUET CHICKEN < 1469018215 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469018490 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1469018565 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1469019054 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I dispute that last statement < 1469019061 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it is a very small part of the language < 1469019110 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what about various register based calling conventions? < 1469019662 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469020959 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's all about varargs compared to some other languages, which don't have anything analogous. < 1469020980 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for register-based conventions, they all tend to have some sort of "rest are spilled on the stack" fallback. < 1469021107 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weird thought: it won't take that long until RFC numbers are going to need five digits. < 1469021405 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :blasphemy... surely the right solution is to return some no longer useful RFC addresses to a pool from which they can be sold to the highest bidder. < 1469021495 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or move to a "RFD" prefix, it has a reasonably analogous expansion ("Request for Discussion"). < 1469021506 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then up to RFE (Request for Elaboration), and so on. < 1469021635 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :In related news, I hadn't somehow realized Psyduck is water-type. < 1469021649 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it makes sense (ducks and water), just somehow surprised me. < 1469021869 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469021989 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, *F*eedback. (I was wondering how much trouble "RFF" would be asking for but this is a quite natural word to use in this context) < 1469022081 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Request for Gabble. < 1469022088 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn gabble < 1469022093 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** "gabble" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" < 1469022093 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :gabble < 1469022093 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : n 1: rapid and indistinct speech [syn: {jabber}, {jabbering}, < 1469022093 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : {gabble}] < 1469022093 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : v 1: speak (about unimportant matters) rapidly and incessantly < 1469022095 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :[3 @more lines] < 1469022107 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a little bit too on-the-nose? < 1469022135 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1469022209 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Request for Gossip, maybe. < 1469023131 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1469023493 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric : In related news, I hadn't somehow realized Psyduck is water-type. <-- shouldn't it be flying/water < 1469023582 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab < 1469023602 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, I think they can't fly? < 1469023606 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Vorpal: wait, "psy" but it's not psychic? < 1469023631 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay? Normal ducks can afaik < 1469023643 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas, good point too < 1469023653 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes normal ducks can < 1469023665 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, each pokemon cannot have more than two types anyways < 1469023678 0 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1469023685 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, so it shouldn't be flying < 1469023701 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm I think I have a weird systemd issue. Says "Started (null)" as the output during the boot at one point < 1469023764 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably upgrade my PC to windows 10 before the end of the free upgrade period... It is on Windows 7 < 1469023820 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Need to make a backup and such first < 1469023856 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :9 more days. < 1469023877 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1469023891 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you upgraded yet? Any major issues? < 1469023922 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I upgraded quite a while ago, but I haven't booted it in months. < 1469023935 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't think I encountered any issues either, though. < 1469023982 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1469024025 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :My wife's ThinkPad's bundled Lenovo crapware was a little bit dodgy post-upgrade, but I dare say the current versions are likely 10-tolerant. (The hard disk, on the other hand, apparently wasn't, since it broke; and she switched to Ubuntu at that point.) < 1469024059 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For the record, the drive broke a month or two after the upgrade, and very likely had nothing to do with it.) < 1469024112 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: right. I heard some people had issues with the software for Saitek X52 Pro, a throttle and joystick setup that I have < 1469024116 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that is slightly worrying < 1469024181 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any exotic hardware. < 1469024198 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay... so where are the rest of the backup hard drives? I only found the Linux backup HDD so far... < 1469024295 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah found it. Also found another thing I didn't think I had any more. < 1469025373 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1469025657 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :tunes is not loading? < 1469025773 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not for me either, but the server appears to have at least some activity < 1469025792 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well clog is here... < 1469025821 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: re your lambdabot message, "article_text" is badly named < 1469025833 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually means title? < 1469025837 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok then. < 1469025855 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: title without namespace < 1469025889 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm not sure if you're interested, but there's some recent discussion about mathematics and ordinals and stuff in the comment stuff of https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/large-countable-ordinals-part-3/ that you might want to look at < 1469025889 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1469025953 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is partly continued from the previous two parts of that blog entry < 1469026021 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: not really interested, sorry < 1469026028 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1469026172 0 :Guest7241!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1469026279 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm looks like a tough guy, that high conservator. < 1469026673 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469027056 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1469027063 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did you look at my hydra killing machine? I realize that the hydra is severely handicapped... but it's actually better than I hoped. < 1469027094 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no. there are no logs at the moment tdnh < 1469027094 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hydra2.xhtml ) < 1469027185 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Thanks, now I've got that Ylvis "Jan Egeland" song stuck in my head. < 1469027200 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: What did I do? < 1469027205 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i haven't heard that. < 1469027229 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said "hydra killing machine"; the song lyrics contain the words "peacekeeping machine". < 1469027234 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I admit that's bit of a stretch. < 1469027280 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, lucky... The hydra currently has: 0 segments, 0 heads, and depth 0. Hercules has cut 74 heads so far. < 1469027282 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Oh, right, they're your countrymen. < 1469027315 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@83.156.198.158 JOIN :#esoteric < 1469027322 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: is this the dire one or the hydra0 one? and did you reroll at the start for few starting segments? < 1469027342 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm a bit nervous of opening the wrong kind of tab while doing the automatic hydra. sometimes my browser decides to crash tabs and reload because of what happens in unrelated ones. < 1469027360 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: this is the dire thing, my hydra2.xhtml, automated strategy, I didn't check the initial depth.\ < 1469027390 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: you might also like to know that I stopped the left-most hydra experiment after 1.5 Million chops. < 1469027396 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah. < 1469027398 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: roll until you get a 11 high hydra :-) (or is that possible only with the non-dire one?) < 1469027435 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the dire one starts at most 8 hgih < 1469027473 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got a 10 < 1469027552 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :with this result: The hydra currently has: 0 segments, 0 heads, and depth 0. Hercules has cut 633 heads so far. < 1469027563 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode لأ < 1469027572 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ncie < 1469027597 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+0644 ARABIC LETTER LAM] [U+0623 ARABIC LETTER ALEF WITH HAMZA ABOVE] < 1469027607 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting... < 1469027660 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it appears blank even though that letter is supported in my font < 1469027680 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: stop sabotaging my experiment with demotivating facts! < 1469027691 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which implies that it's some contextual form that is blank < 1469027706 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: your time would be better spent on implementing your own chopping strategy in javascript! < 1469027730 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: can you just create multiple browser profiles, run them each separately (in separate browser processes), and run the hydra in a special one? < 1469027747 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I run two browser processes because of a bad-behaved internal webpage I need to use < 1469027798 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it can be a bit tricky because firefox needs a magic incantation for this, but once you know the right incantation for your version of browser, it's not that hard < 1469027811 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469027818 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does arabic even work? < 1469027827 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: i use IE hth (idn) < 1469027830 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: ... it's complicated < 1469027849 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know how to do the same in most other browsers < 1469027896 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :once more, people are giving me advice that i've explicitly hinted i don't want. will they never learn? < 1469027966 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, most of the letters seem to be connected ever since I added the contextual forms in Arabic Presentation Form-A < 1469027971 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: fwiw, it was intended to be unsolicited advice. < 1469027990 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :But some aren't < 1469027991 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I receive a bit of that myself and it usually gets ignored. < 1469028019 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1469028183 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@cpe-75-187-129-201.neo.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1469028251 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh, which codepoints do I need? < 1469028312 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I see! < 1469028369 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, http://unicode.scarfboy.com/ seems to display a random one by default < 1469028438 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2b132E6 looks useful < 1469028460 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for electrical engineering :-P) < 1469028858 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember, people < 1469028866 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :the egyptians invented the lightbulb: http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=U%2b132e9 < 1469028907 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: that's a pacifier, not a lightbulb < 1469028940 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what they want you to think... :) < 1469029138 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: heh, I got a depth 12 seed... let's kill that. < 1469029202 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps it doesn't make any difference whether it's depth 9,10,11 or 12... the first few cuts will simply not result in any replication because that would make the hydra too deep. < 1469029212 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, The hydra currently has: 0 segments, 0 heads, and depth 0. Hercules has cut 491 heads so far. < 1469029244 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: depth 12 dire or non-dire? < 1469029269 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: dire < 1469029277 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1469029278 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not playing with the non-dire one at all < 1469029284 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know 12 was even possible < 1469031365 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i ran the hydra for a while. it was making pretty good progress by the time it hit the 4k mark then vbox crashed and forced a reboot < 1469031415 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i postulate that "leftmost head" may be the most (or nearly the most) pessimal chopping strategy < 1469031439 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this hydra thing? < 1469031439 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@83.156.198.158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"leftmost head" sounds pretty random < 1469031492 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml < 1469031509 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1469031595 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's related to the ordinals I was talking about < 1469031606 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in other news I think I just had a premonition of a future NetHack enemy... < 1469031629 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the description is at http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2008-03-27.1537.html , and the games at http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml and http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra0.xhtml < 1469031632 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DCSS has hydras, but they don't quite work like that < 1469031673 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does it have hydras with at most 7 heads? < 1469031678 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even at most 6 heads? < 1469031700 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they cap out at 27, and grow 2 heads when you cut off 1 with a non-flaming edged weapon < 1469031719 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1469031723 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: waho... non-flaming? so acid doesn't help? < 1469031733 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, edged weapon only < 1469031736 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-243-173.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1469031737 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@c83-253-243-173.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Changing host < 1469031737 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1469031737 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, not cute and cuddly then. < 1469031738 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can just club them to death < 1469031741 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :although they'll eat you first < 1469031752 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: does it also have water hydras? < 1469031781 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: no < 1469032067 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : i postulate that "leftmost head" may be the most (or nearly the most) pessimal chopping strategy <-- my theory too < 1469032109 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@83.156.198.158 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1469032351 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means you're nearly always cutting off the smallest branches, which means that when you finally get to a large branch, the result will be almost as large and have plenty of room to grow. < 1469032386 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think optimal may be to cut off the head furthest from the root < 1469032403 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is leftmost equivalent to cutting off the head nearest to the root? < 1469032415 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1469032445 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because a dire cut can add height. < 1469032510 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that may be optimal although i'm not sure whether it's _also_ worth it to avoid dire cuts in some circumstances (which i've been doing) < 1469032593 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess we can simplify it by saying that the hydra always makes 1 more than the minimum number of copies < 1469032608 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know that'd defeat the ordinals thing, but it'd make it possible to compare algos objectively) < 1469032642 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: note that the js version is _very_ much constrained by the restriction on how much total junk it'll allow. < 1469032657 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1469032667 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :without that, as i said, you'd probably not beat it in the lifetime of the universe. < 1469032756 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, it hardly ever copies < 1469032758 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469033013 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1469033318 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469033425 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :almost got to cut the oldest dire branch there... < 1469033489 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean prune. still a y shape on top of it. < 1469034479 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@cor91-7-83-156-198-158.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1469034752 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :4155 and only one dire neck left < 1469034764 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it just duplicated < 1469034770 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :triplicated i mean < 1469034869 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i got to that point _relatively_ fast too. < 1469034892 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to look at how much is on top it, alas. < 1469034897 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i think) < 1469034915 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*+of < 1469034959 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: this one, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hydra.png still looked healthy a million chops later. < 1469035003 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it regularly cut all the wait to the rightmost subtree on level 2. < 1469035066 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well my rightmost subtree on level 2 is much smaller than that. < 1469035072 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: mine is much further along than that. (it got lucky with no copies in the first 3 chops) < 1469035094 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at 74400 heads about now.) < 1469035183 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's good. < 1469035401 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :74400 heads? or cuts? i don't think the app can fit 74400 heads on screen, though it would be interesting to try and force it to < 1469035450 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :cuts < 1469035553 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://imgur.com/a/CKzBn < 1469035704 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, what's this? < 1469035737 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml < 1469035741 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: thanks < 1469035923 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i think my rightmost subtree is even further than that. it's a dire at level 2, but above only three normals at level 3. that Y on yours could result in far more than that. hard to say though. < 1469035967 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i agree, that's at least a smaller "ordinal" < 1469036063 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, it's easy to produce your shape by taking steps from mine < 1469036135 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: https://imgur.com/a/iB9r1 < 1469036169 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :as i thought. < 1469036186 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-088-066-188-188.088.066.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1469036258 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need at least two cuts on my rightmost second level to get something like that. < 1469036286 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do expect that to take less than a million cuts, though. < 1469036309 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully less than 100000 < 1469036338 0 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-066-188-188.088.066.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: thunderstorm < 1469036355 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is an urgent appeal from the ESPEH (Esoteric Society for the Protection of Endangered Hydrae) < 1469036387 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hundreds of hydras are being slaughtered every day by merciless murderers who do it for the "fun of solving them"... < 1469036402 0 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1469036434 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :to save these poor, defenseless hydras, please donate just a month. < 1469036523 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: a hydra is like an anthill. it gets into your pantry and starts eating all your food, and any time you see a head, you squish it without thinking about it. but you really need poison to even make a dent in the hill < 1469036556 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonsense < 1469036558 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :er...i got my simile confused with the thing it was symbolizing there < 1469036564 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you get the idea < 1469036570 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't < 1469036583 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :people keep murdering these poor innocent hydrae, who can't even defend themselves < 1469036587 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, hydrae are pests and need to be killed as much as possible < 1469036611 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also I love how my linguistic misinformation plan is working so well) < 1469036653 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the best part is I wasn't even being consistent about it) < 1469036653 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i read that xkcd too. i can knowingly participate in such pranx < 1469036687 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: my impression is that they're grooming their hydras and eating the cut off heads. < 1469036708 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...isn't that painful for the hydrae? < 1469036724 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hydras don't feel pain. < 1469036749 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have you read the Herzei Study On The Biology Of Hydrae? < 1469036786 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cf. http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/1993/04/03 < 1469036828 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any money called "". < 1469036835 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: I have not, and I intend to keep it that way. < 1469037018 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hydrae is actually an accepted plural of hydra < 1469037047 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: would you donate it if you did? < 1469037067 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: But I don't care how you call hydras! < 1469037134 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: O KAY < 1469037213 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :\o/ it's dead < 1469037231 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Took 1568 cuts < 1469037231 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ybden: by hand? how many cuts? < 1469037233 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1469037236 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: by hand < 1469037245 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems high for manual. strategy? < 1469037247 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: If I had enough, and the stuff it is meant to donate for is valid, then I might. < 1469037270 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: progress! only 2 above that rightmost dire now < 1469037340 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay < 1469037395 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if anyone wants the "how to donate " text I just sent to zzo38, ask :) < 1469037404 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hint: it's not actually currency at all) < 1469037420 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :currently i don't want it. < 1469037639 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole donation thing no longer has currency < 1469037651 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: It took a while for me to create a strategy. Just tried again with the strategy that I formed, took 403 cuts < 1469037663 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ybden: what is i < 1469037670 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to work out how to describe it < 1469037740 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:2c40:400::1:6e46 QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1469037757 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it was pretty much breadth-first, prioritising the removal of higher levels and dire segments < 1469037799 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but higher levels over dire segments) < 1469037805 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :breadth first from where? < 1469037834 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, which direction? Top-downwards < 1469037843 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trying to remove tips < 1469037858 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I suppose that isn't exactly breadth-first < 1469037863 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :left to right? < 1469037870 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't really pick an order < 1469037893 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i tried a similar strategy and it was very poor, though i think i may have prioritized dire segments over height < 1469037915 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :for multiple tips at the same level, I tried to remove the ones with less normals, although in hindsight I should probably have done it the other way round < 1469037936 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given that this would probably have resulted in less duplication < 1469037967 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: Yeah, I think I was prioritising dire segments over height partway through the first time, and then switched to height < 1469037970 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :It went better after that < 1469038013 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it made quite a significant difference, actually < 1469038033 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any known best algorithm for efficient hydra chopping? < 1469038059 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :not known because we don't know the algorithm for head regrowth < 1469038067 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's random? < 1469038180 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1469038190 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess we could look at the code < 1469038196 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is javascript after all < 1469038223 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a probability distribution on head growth, plus also certain constraints that prevent it from recursing/copying too much < 1469038286 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there some kind of pumping lemma for picture languages? < 1469038452 0 :tromp!~tromp@rtc35-220.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by picture language? < 1469038533 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are languages that extend regular expressions by operators that act downwards instead of sideways < 1469038542 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :resulting in twodimensional results < 1469038542 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: tried again, but prioritising normals with more heads, took 487 < 1469038555 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I'm pretty sure this is worse, even though this is random < 1469038594 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would - i guess - result in regular pictures < 1469038604 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you can also define the same for grammars < 1469039473 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anyone know why does posix_memalign return int instead of void * like _every_ other function that allocates memory? < 1469039506 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: you mean like snails? < 1469039521 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: it's so that it can have more than one error code < 1469039527 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :without needing to rely on errno < 1469039543 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the problem with errno? < 1469039567 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. let's assume i add a $-operator to,RE that acts like + but downwards. (0+)$ would be a rectangle of 0 < 1469039619 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: it's globalisih state that can be surprisingly hard to deal with < 1469039622 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i also add some kind of downwards concatenation i could make a chessboard < 1469039633 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it tends to get accidentally overwritten quite easily, for example < 1469039634 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but every other function uses it < 1469039639 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and causes headaches for threading libraries < 1469039645 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :((10)+ D (01)+)$ < 1469039649 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think POSIX is moving away from errno for newly designed functions < 1469039660 0 :tromp!~tromp@rtc35-220.rentec.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is down concatenation of strings of different length? < 1469039685 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd say either undefined or having blanks < 1469039696 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: regular expressions already have a $ assertion < 1469039701 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might want to use some other character < 1469039723 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah well, pcre do < 1469039741 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i donjt care about notation really < 1469039808 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/feresum/PMA/blob/master/doc.md SNAILS < 1469039836 0 :mitchs!~canissimi@unaffiliated/canissimia PART #esoteric : < 1469040045 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469040240 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: What's your lowest chop count (by hand)? < 1469040327 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1469040469 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so why does aligned_alloc return void* and set errno? < 1469040473 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's in c11 < 1469040505 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because C11 and POSIX kind-of compete with each other < 1469040530 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one of the two is a bad decision < 1469041928 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : isn't it easily going to go to ackermann numbers <-- my guess is that the general hydras last even longer than that, since their halting is unprovable in peano arithmetic. but this one is limited by screen size, which means it obviously cannot be more than about exponential in that. < 1469041972 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(is graham's number stuff provable in peano arithmetic?) < 1469041988 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(tunes finally loaded hth) < 1469041999 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i must be going -> < 1469042001 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't remember the context but I think I was just going to make some sort of pun. < 1469042019 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, that was the next line < 1469042021 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan is a real groucho these days < 1469042028 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I think it was just setup. < 1469042029 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :groucho? < 1469042033 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1469042059 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YrNQaXdOxU < 1469042142 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: OKAY < 1469042374 0 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-088-066-188-188.088.066.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1469043407 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar EGBB < 1469043408 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EGBB 201820Z 30010KT 9999 VCSH FEW033 SCT039TCU 24/15 Q1010 < 1469043458 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar LOWI < 1469043458 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 201820Z VRB01KT 9999 FEW070 25/16 Q1016 NOSIG < 1469043471 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :cooling down slowly... < 1469043566 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:1811:d22:cc00:985e:426e:9097:d7c1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1469043785 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1469043928 0 :^v!~v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1469044200 0 :^v!~v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1469044251 0 :Nithogg_!~ethiraric@jrc16-h01-176-150-43-109.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1469044495 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1469044511 0 :Nithogg_!~ethiraric@jrc16-h01-176-150-43-109.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1469044905 0 :lordofheads!~The_Progr@41.58.10.170 JOIN :#esoteric < 1469045025 0 :lordofheads!~The_Progr@41.58.10.170 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any hacker in d house < 1469045120 0 :lordofheads!~The_Progr@41.58.10.170 PART #esoteric : < 1469045122 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469045136 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :brilliant. < 1469045193 0 :^v!~v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1469045222 0 :^v!~v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1469045308 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, people are too stupid to use the pumping lemma < 1469045341 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had some that chose i = 1 to get a word that's not in the language ... < 1469045365 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could work! < 1469045376 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if you made a mistake earlier) < 1469045490 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we had a language L = {1^(k^2) | k in N+} < 1469045500 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one guy noticed that epsilon is not in there < 1469045519 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so he chose i < 0 small enough to anihilate all other 1s in the given word < 1469045524 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, this gives me an idea for a wrong proof... showing that the empty set is not regular... for assume it's regular and consider any word from the language that is longer than the pumping constant... pumping gives a word that is not in the language because the language is empty... which is a contradiction... find the error! < 1469045579 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :myname: that's a nice trick too. < 1469045622 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but stupid as fuck to write in something that gets graded < 1469045631 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell oerjan uh, GG... could that be Zola? < 1469045631 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1469045676 0 :^v!~v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1469045883 0 :^v!~v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1469046057 0 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1469046159 0 :^v!~v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1469046216 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-088-066-188-188.088.066.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1469047160 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469047880 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :That kind of deciding character encoding is not so good I think; the encoding should be defined explicitly instead. (For compatibility purpose, it could do what it does now if no character encoding is explicitly defined) < 1469048558 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sort of character encoding deciding? I seem to be missing context for that statement. < 1469048660 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one documented in https://github.com/feresum/PMA/blob/master/doc.md < 1469048696 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm. < 1469048921 0 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1469049506 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469049711 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1469051166 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh my god why! < 1469051192 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would someone use macros to generate templates that generate the actual code that is crashing < 1469051202 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1469051379 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you asking *about* meta-meta-code? < 1469051467 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait... I didn't even knwo you could do this with templates < 1469051526 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :When did template functions with variable numbers of variably type arguments become a thing? < 1469051550 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And why would anyone even < 1469051589 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're in #esoteric < 1469051591 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is normal < 1469051604 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"C++11 - New features - Variadic templates" http://www.cplusplus.com/articles/EhvU7k9E/ has a few usecases < 1469051621 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: I did not expect to see this in actual, production code < 1469051636 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :not necessarily convincing ones... maybe the motivation was to do less C preprocessor magic. < 1469051637 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or really, anything remotely resebling this < 1469051699 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm looking at this stuff and I'm thinking; no wonder our builds take an hour to compile < 1469051739 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the code that uses this is also generated < 1469051741 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tip: templates compile for reach translation unit they're present in. < 1469051758 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :As such, templates are the secret to slow C++ compile times. < 1469051762 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :*each < 1469051851 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this stuff is just there as syntax sugar mostly < 1469051861 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :god, why < 1469051942 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :variadic template functions generated by macros and used by another writhing abomination somewhere else < 1469051977 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So in other news I'll be watching TheDailyWTF) < 1469052062 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh I forgot to mention what this is doing < 1469052089 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it allows C++ code that writes HTML to have the same nested structure as the HTML is generates < 1469052109 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the horror < 1469052112 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's an EDSL! < 1469052139 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now we're in buzzword-compatible sane territory again ;-) < 1469052157 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, as long as it works :P < 1469052189 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :But why does it need to have that structure... < 1469052197 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ow. < 1469052200 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :my sanity. < 1469052213 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's gone. < 1469052247 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can then write htmlout.start_a("href","someurl").text("link name").end_a(); < 1469052261 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something? < 1469052268 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de TOPIC #esoteric :The intradisciplinary hub of insanity matrices and esoteric magic card design and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf < 1469052283 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's hard to tell because the functionsa are generated by a macro < 1469052349 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 JOIN :#esoteric < 1469052358 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we rarely use this code directly < 1469052397 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in rust, you can use macros to basically inline html to generate a dom object < 1469052401 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's through a templating system in a proprietary subset of an obscure open source language invented by the chief architect < 1469052441 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which obscure open source language? < 1469052456 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you can't have an open source language under an NDA, surely?) < 1469052456 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Salmon" < 1469052500 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's almost impossible to find info on it other than two mailing list posts by the chief architect < 1469052521 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :at comp.compilers? < 1469052526 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think so < 1469052542 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems it supposedly had a website at one point. < 1469052564 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh there's an archive < 1469052566 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cod5.org/archive/s/salmon.html < 1469052573 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this it? https://web.archive.org/web/20140105015657/http://salmonpl.net/ < 1469052573 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Imperitive" < 1469052581 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: yep < 1469052614 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :our build system is written in it, instead of makefiles < 1469052619 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: you could have something that's not open source but people lie about it and claim it's open source (this is common); or you could have something that has an open source license (usually because of copyleft) but isn't distributed except within very tight circles. < 1469052641 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know about the people who lie and claim something is open source when it isn't... but those are usually people who are actually dodgy < 1469052642 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: wait, your build system is written in a templating system? < 1469052659 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "77zip", woah was *that* a fun mess to clean off of someone's computer < 1469052667 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not to be confused with "7-zip") < 1469052696 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: no, in Salmon, an obscure programming language < 1469052717 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"procedure" and "function" are different things for some reason < 1469052736 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is used for many purposes here because it's the pet language of the chief architect < 1469052750 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, for... reduced fractions < 1469052753 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course you can also have something under an MIT-like license but distribute only binary form or other deliberately obfuscated form that's hard to decode or modify. < 1469052766 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luckily, the production things are all in C++ < 1469052785 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Big companies sometimes try to pull that when some legal court forces them to release the source of some software < 1469052840 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, apparently Salmon comments are C-like, except when they're Python-like. Oh, but apparently comments can be nested, I'm sure THAT's fun < 1469052840 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: heh, I'm glad our chief architect doesn't have an obscure pet language... oh wait, cmake. damnit. < 1469052844 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: reduced fractions? < 1469052855 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: https://web.archive.org/web/20120114192459/http://salmonpl.net/docs/basic_examples.html < 1469052856 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :read < 1469052858 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :carefully < 1469052911 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh geez < 1469052937 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: well in C, ifdefs can be nested < 1469052946 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that can be fun < 1469052993 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but that makes SENSE < 1469052995 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :!"Hello, world!" <-- didn't some basic dialects use ! for abbreviating PRINT? < 1469053022 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: can Salmon do /* crazy /*/ alternating /*/ comments /*/ with /*/ non-comments /*/ like /*/ this /*/ ? /**/ < 1469053039 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use #if 0 for bcommenting things out in C anyway < 1469053041 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, basic dialects use a question mark to abbreviate print < 1469053044 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not an exclamation mark < 1469053051 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn. < 1469053061 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no idea what would happen, Salmon's not my language, and I don't ever want to run it on any computer I own < 1469053068 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, someone else's computer maybe < 1469053075 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: yes, that's useful for commenting out entire code blocks when they may contain short comments. I do it a lot < 1469053129 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some of my co-workers instead put a // in front of each line, even when commenting out a whole code block. that's horrible. #if 0 nests cleanly, both with other #if 0 and with comments.) < 1469053164 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you can use #if 1 if you want to reenbale it temporarily < 1469053183 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(while keeping the grouping handy) < 1469053203 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: exactly. and #else for two blocks of which you enable one, or even named #ifdef < 1469053207 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :@google enbale < 1469053208 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.facebook.com/public/Melaku-Enbale < 1469053213 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :eww. < 1469053267 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it evoked associations with "embalm" for me. fun typo. < 1469053267 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and in some cases, I can just use if (0) { ... } to disable a block.) < 1469053367 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( salmon looks fishy ) < 1469053639 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469053721 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so I can do tag_a("href","url","text"); < 1469053752 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :might as well dive right into the tempateing horror < 1469053898 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, they printed a red Donate sorcery, costing only 2R, that works on any type of permanent? that's crazy! < 1469053928 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1469054431 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, this thing actually works pretty well < 1469054457 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than being a convulsing horror < 1469054469 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1469054554 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen cmake in several projects though < 1469054572 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :is cmake turing complete by itdelf? < 1469054576 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, cmake? < 1469054595 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe cmake works well, but it definitely doesn't work well the way it's used here < 1469054608 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the build system is horrible, and probably only part of that is that it's in cmake < 1469054609 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not talking about cmake before < 1469054629 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was talking about the massive templateing horror that generates html < 1469054630 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"convulsing horror" does describe the build scripts we're using really < 1469054637 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that? < 1469054652 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was the Eldritch Moon set in general < 1469054658 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that one is convulsing horror < 1469054680 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think cmake is turing-complete by itself, but I don't really know. I don't program cmake. the chief architect does that. < 1469054713 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :right. I don't write anything in Salmon, I merely copypaste it when I need to add things < 1469054713 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are all build systems scow < 1469054726 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting the Cthulhu back in Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn. < 1469054759 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we talked about that before. figuring out what you have to rebuild and what you can reuse is one of the two hard problems in computer science < 1469054768 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ybden: bad < 1469054772 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: just rebuild everything < 1469054773 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone told that today < 1469054777 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: rough count? < 1469054788 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but the problem is, this build system doesn't work even if you rebuild everything, < 1469054796 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1469054801 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :therefore: why are all build systems scow < 1469054803 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: because it builds things in the wrong order, so it tries to build something before building its deps < 1469054809 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: if we did that, testing any change would take 40 minutes instead of 5 < 1469054816 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously < 1469054820 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the man tests take 4 hours < 1469054824 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :*main < 1469054832 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :just send it to your data center and run it on a zillion computers < 1469054846 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I don't actually mean to just rebuild everything. < 1469054881 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the servers are in the room across from Dave. < 1469054904 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :(his name isn't Dave) < 1469054918 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :DANGEROUS DAVE < 1469054919 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :DAVE.EXE < 1469054933 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, yes < 1469054948 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes we have to go in there and hold the power button to reboot it < 1469054965 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :or get someone in California to do that < 1469055044 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the actual production servers are in a data centre < 1469055050 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :...maybe < 1469055066 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a centre? < 1469055072 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean a centrë? < 1469055073 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the dev servers are in the other room < 1469055266 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, I'm fairly certain that if I ran linux on my macbook i could run the server on it < 1469055282 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much memory does a macbook pro have? < 1469055323 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I know any MacBook pros. < 1469055336 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I know some people who know a lot about Apple computers in general. < 1469055338 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait no, it probably doesn't have enough hard disk < 1469055340 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have pretty good memories. < 1469055357 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the server"? < 1469055372 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the... thingy. that my code goes into < 1469055398 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thingy that I run and it tells me if I did a good job... or somehting < 1469055415 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the output is colored red i did a bad job < 1469055451 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :aww < 1469055454 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's green, hooray I can type svn ci < 1469055461 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :People are upset about https://youtu.be/7rZOMY2sOnE apparently < 1469055473 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm upset about it without even clicking the link. < 1469055478 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I'll keep not clicking it. < 1469055493 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Our servers have raid array of hard disks, larger than any workstation does (but still not VERY large), plus at least some server has a tape drive for backups. < 1469055496 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: It's an ad for Campbell's soup that has a gay couple in it < 1469055511 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, Star Wars. Yes, they make an "I am your father" pun.) < 1469055513 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, that would definitely upset me. < 1469055515 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: \o/ managed to kill it in 123 cuts with a good starting configuration and that strategy < 1469055517 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like ads. < 1469055528 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: But it allows me to make jokes < 1469055552 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody tell the conservatives that it isn't a gay marriage; the other parents just aren't shown onscreen < 1469055588 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :ybden the cut topmost and then dire strat? < 1469055598 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yes < 1469055606 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another problem with c++ templates is that I can get several tens of kilobytes of error messages < 1469055642 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :all colored red thanks to our wonderful build system < 1469055646 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'll need a TENS machine to handle those error messages. < 1469055651 0 :ybden!~ybden@unaffiliated/ybden PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: also attempting to ensure that when cutting normals at the same level, that any growth would result in the smallest number of duplication < 1469055752 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily I know the -R switch for less < 1469055780 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can also get tons of error messages. I usually search for "fatal" in them first, which means that the compiler stopped, either because there were too many error messages, because an #inlcude wasn't found, or because parenthesis or #ifs were unbalanced or some other preprocessor error, < 1469055810 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and always imply that there will be much more error messages once I fix the fatal error, so I shouldn't be too happy with the error list being so short < 1469055865 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, he never defined a template specialization for std::string only for char* < 1469055872 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1469055878 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: C++17 is going to be TG < 1469055913 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :will C++17 make std::string the builting string type instead of char*? < 1469055981 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that "hello world" is an std::string? < 1469056046 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: no, and that would be almost impossible anyway. but you can use a user-defined literal that gives a std::string, and the standard library will probably define such a udl < 1469056073 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so eg. "hello world"s will be a std::string, possibly with some other suffix instead of s < 1469056087 0 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc5-lewi14-2-0-cust1.2-4.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469056087 0 :lleu!~gnomebad@cpc5-lewi14-2-0-cust1.2-4.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Changing host < 1469056087 0 :lleu!~gnomebad@unaffiliated/lleu JOIN :#esoteric < 1469056308 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that's an ok compromise, but I still think std::string and std::vector should be made builtins with dedicated syntax < 1469056346 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :user defined literals sound like they will cause conflict < 1469056372 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: part of the problem is that to create a std::string (even if the literal gives a const &), the compiler would have to know about the abi of std::string (which actually differs in different versions of libstdc++), how to allocate memory (which can depend on the version of libstdc++, compilation options, the libc used, etc), and < 1469056392 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when to allocate the memory (not too late so it can cause an exception in the function where the literal is used, but not too early before libc isn't ready to malloc) < 1469056412 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: I definitely don't think std::string or std::vector should be builtins < 1469056447 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :strings and arrays are builtins in most languages, why not in C++? < 1469056484 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: most languages aren't like C++, and C++ syntax is now powerful enough that you can define your own new array-like or string-like class in C++, which is basically what the library does < 1469056490 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could standardize the ABI for them < 1469056495 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's rather nontrivial with C and C++ having the interesting feature of supporting freestanding implementations. < 1469056503 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(all this applies for modern C++, not for ancient C++) < 1469056506 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is, implementations *without a libc at all*. < 1469056509 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but you don't want to use ancient C++) < 1469056509 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:1811:d22:cc00:985e:426e:9097:d7c1 QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1469056539 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is an explicit feature in both C and C++. It's in the spec, and it's relied upon by some users.) < 1469056633 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't the spec's definition of a freestanding environment, to say most things are now implementation defined? < 1469056650 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: the best ABI depends on details of the underlying machine, and as a result has also changed in time (although in huge rare steps because it's a pain to change), it's a low-level detail that the C++ language itself shouldn't standardize it. but part of the ABIs are standard enough, in the sense that they're documented and implemented by many < 1469056650 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric : different compilers (the libstdc++ part are somewhat worse in this than the C and posix part) < 1469056697 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some portions of a freestanding environment are implementation defined. Not, however, the runtime semantics or syntax... < 1469056738 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Having std::string built in would give you a substantial library that would be required to be defined in freestanding environments. < 1469056754 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :does the C standard mandate that an implementation have floats? < 1469056763 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1469056778 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: yes, although it's quite lenient about what kind of floats they are < 1469056804 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :could a conforming implementation use fixed point for floats? < 1469056807 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily most modern machines and compiler environments give you SANE floats too, not just floats < 1469056813 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's no requirement that they're IEEE floats at all, and what's required in freestanding implementations is just the basic operators and some macros. < 1469056815 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: no < 1469056868 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another big problem is that C++ attempts to have a large common subset with C. < 1469056882 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Changing core semantics like the meaning of a string literal, would break that. < 1469056892 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that is a big problem. they need to stop doing that < 1469056910 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: they did sort of stop < 1469056922 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this by any chance referring to wide characters? < 1469056923 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It would also break existing C++ code, which is frowned upon in new standard versions. < 1469056950 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sense that they aren't supporting some of the useful more recent C features, and sometimes are specifically incompatible with them (otoh at least they also don't support some of the BAD recent features of C) < 1469056958 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: no < 1469056974 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: But then, it's trivial to write valid C90 that's invalid C++. < 1469056991 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int class = 2; < 1469056998 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :char *foo = malloc(1); /* Woops. */ < 1469057003 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: sure < 1469057054 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, yeah. C++ breaking existing C++ is basically not going to happen if it's avoidable. < 1469057058 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a macro __STDC_IEC_559__ which, if defined, signals that the floats satisfy an extra annex that's mostly the IEEE things. < 1469057066 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: meh, most C code stopped using class as a keyword. ruby uses klass instead to denote ruby classes. < 1469057109 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's lots of C vs C++ compatibility things that can trip you up more frequently < 1469057127 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :including pointer conversions like you already mentioned, but there's more < 1469057183 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :c++ doesn't let you convert a void pointer to anyhting? < 1469057188 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not implicitly. < 1469057207 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: That one's one of the worse ones specifically because it breaks nearly all idiomatic C. < 1469057215 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: and also doesn't let you use an assignment statement to convert a pointer to an integer, or something like that < 1469057247 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, it's not one of the worse ones, because it gives an error message. the worse ones are the ones that compile silently but do the wrong thing < 1469057249 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even without, the floats need to follow a model where a floating-point number is defined by x = s * b^e * sum_{k=1..p} f_k b^-k, with s either 1 or -1, some integer b > 1, integers e_min <= e <= e_max, and nonnegative integers f_k < b. < 1469057256 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, good point. < 1469057258 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can get them with some of the overloaded maths functions < 1469057267 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :min, max, abs especially < 1469057300 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nasty things like function names getting mangled in C++ but not C can be real problems. < 1469057301 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although things like the accuracy of operations is implementation-defined.) < 1469057355 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably some other cases of things which syntactically work the same in both but have subtly different semantics, but I can't think of 'em right now. < 1469057381 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's also the struct and typedef namespaces being identical in C++. < 1469057424 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, although that (struct and typedef and enum namespaces) rarely seems to cause compatibility problems < 1469057428 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though if you typedef a struct of a given name to the same name it still works in C++, and if you do a different typedef then it just gives you a compilation error. < 1469057437 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: there's also some difference in scoping that I forgot, which also rarely causes problems < 1469057442 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be picky, there's no typedef namespace. Those are just ordinary identifiers. < 1469057455 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes < 1469057474 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and when the struct namespace causes problems, it's usually (but not always) compilation errors < 1469057637 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are lots of other compatiblity problems but I keep forgetting about them < 1469057669 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't work much with C these days, and keep assuming that it does everything just like C++ but without destructors and features like that and with C99 complexes < 1469057690 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1469057707 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I get surprised when people tell me that C works differently < 1469057714 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and promptly forget about it < 1469058576 0 :wob_jonas!59858794@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.89.133.135.148 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1469058851 0 :hppavilion[2]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1469059127 0 :tromp_!~tromp@ool-944bc34f.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1469059169 0 :Guest7241!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1469059193 0 :I!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric