←2016-07-20 2016-07-21 2016-07-22→ ↑2016 ↑all
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00:20:29 <izabera> i came up with the most efficient idea
00:20:39 <izabera> $ { cat; inutility dd skip=-3 bs=1 count=0 status=none; cat; } <<< 12345678
00:20:40 <izabera> 12345678
00:20:42 <izabera> 78
00:21:16 <izabera> my dd can take a negative parameter for skip and it seeks backwards
00:21:46 <izabera> so you can move the file offset arbitrarily from a shell
00:22:01 <izabera> you just need to fork and exec an external program first
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00:51:06 <\oren\> inutility sounds like it means "un useful ness"
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00:51:39 <\oren\> like inability or inhumanity
00:51:52 <prooftechnique> It does mean that
00:52:12 <prooftechnique> It is a synonym for uselessness
00:52:20 <\oren\> prooftechnique: it's a real word? wow
00:52:23 <prooftechnique> The adjectival form is inutile
00:53:04 <prooftechnique> Life's strange
00:56:38 <izabera> i'm great at picking names
00:56:56 <prooftechnique> Example?
00:57:03 <izabera> inutility -_-
00:58:00 <\oren\> but this negative skip sounds useful!
00:58:38 <izabera> yay
00:59:04 <izabera> tbh it's a feature i expected gnu dd to have
00:59:09 <izabera> i was disappointed
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01:06:13 <quintopia> ybden: it worked. 159 heads. nice job.
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01:14:24 <\oren\> Ok, so I've figured out which characters I need to add so that Arabic text will look alright
01:16:24 <boily> he\\oren\. tackling the whole combinarabic thing?
01:19:05 <quintopia> coily
01:19:38 <boily> quinthellopia!
01:20:18 <prooftechnique> helloily
01:21:24 <prooftechnique> I wonder if there's an elisp library that could automate those name transformations for ERC :)
01:21:40 <\oren\> boily: it seems to do it automatically if I define the code points in 0xfe80 to 0xfef4
01:22:02 <\oren\> it automatically chooses the correct form contextually
01:22:33 <\oren\> but I currently have some missing in that block
01:24:04 <\oren\> I also dfound out that when I added ﬡﬢﬣﬤﬥﬦﬧﬨ to the font I didn't put them in the demo, that's been corrected
01:24:41 <\oren\> `unidecode ﬡ
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01:25:32 <\oren\> wake up hackego!
01:25:42 * boily mapoles the HackEgo
01:25:45 <boily> `wisdom
01:26:00 * boily mapoles the HackEgo some more
01:26:01 <boily> `wisdom
01:26:16 <lambdabot> don't mapole me, bro
01:26:31 <boily> I ain't be mapoling lambdie.
01:26:35 <\oren\> anyway ﬡ isn't a wide character even though it should be. so I drew it as bold instead
01:26:45 <HackEgo> ​[U+FB21 HEBREW LETTER WIDE ALEF]
01:26:52 <HackEgo> No output.
01:26:53 <HackEgo> atrocity//Atrocity is the capital of the Atrocious Empire.
01:27:44 <boily> that sounds shachafy...
01:27:50 <boily> `culprits wisdom/atrocity
01:28:06 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan
01:28:44 <prooftechnique> I would think Atrocity would just be one without any lights
01:28:48 * boily accepts his wrongness
01:28:57 <shachaf> boily: do you accept `cwlprits
01:29:12 <prooftechnique> Or `cuilprits
01:29:16 <boily> hellochaf. are those welsh culprits?
01:29:29 <shachaf> obviously
01:29:32 <boily> prooftechnollique. surreal culprits?
01:29:33 <shachaf> `coolprits
01:29:46 <boily> do we have any Welsh in this chännel? Taneb?
01:30:01 <alercah> don't you mean chwnnwl?
01:30:55 <prooftechnique> Indeed
01:33:45 <boily> alercahello. chŵnnŵl.
01:33:52 <shachaf> Taneb is dutch hth
01:34:02 <shachaf> dutchelloneb
01:35:33 <boily> it is customary to porthello Taneb in the vocative case. duchellone.
01:35:36 <boily> s/ch/tch/
01:36:18 <\oren\> chﺍnnﺍl
01:36:37 <shachaf> \oren\: that makes no sense hth
01:36:48 <\oren\> why not?
01:37:09 <boily> are those clicks?
01:40:13 <\oren\> should it be chﻌnnﻌl instead?
01:40:42 <\oren\> or chﻌnnﻴl?
01:43:47 <\oren\> chאַnnיl
01:44:53 <\oren\> צaננeל
01:45:47 <shachaf> \oren\: are you aware that this a right-to-left alphabet hth
01:45:49 <\oren\> שתaננeל
01:46:27 <shachaf> this is painful hth
01:48:16 <\oren\> לeננaתש
01:48:54 <shachaf> that is not how you write that sound hth
01:49:40 <\oren\> תש is T SH -> CH right?
01:51:14 <boily> you wrote shtannel hth.
01:52:36 <\oren\> huh?
01:52:38 <shachaf> No, it doesn't make senes to write that sound that way.
01:53:40 <\oren\> לeננaכ better?
01:54:54 <\oren\> ooh, there's a letter called a chet
01:55:55 <\oren\> לeננaח
01:58:06 <\oren\> wait a second, yiddish must surely have the ch sound in it
01:58:22 <\oren\> AHA
01:58:30 <\oren\> לeננaצ׳
01:58:52 <\oren\> shachaf: is THAT how you do it?
02:01:35 <\oren\> "hebraization of English"
02:03:02 <\oren\> now, time to play Kerbal Space Program
02:05:18 <\oren\> לe׆נaצ׳
02:06:13 <boily> a reversed nun?
02:06:43 <\oren\> well we need an esoteric letter
02:07:00 -!- boily has set topic: The intradisciplinary hub of Hebrificational Abuse, Esoteric Magic Card design, and Font Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
02:07:25 <boily> hmm... could be better...
02:07:43 -!- boily has set topic: The intradisciplinary hub of Abnormal Linguistic Hebrification, Esoteric Magic Card Design, and Font Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
02:07:52 <\oren\> apparently a bunch of ׆ appear as punctuation in the bible and noone knows why
02:08:34 <boily> maybe they aren't reversed נ and only notches that served as points?
02:08:57 <boily> s/point/period/
02:10:46 <\oren\> no, they are used like brackets around certain verses
02:11:19 <shachaf> \oren\: That's better.
02:11:21 <\oren\> but hwat that signifies about those verses noone knows
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02:25:41 <\oren\> ARGHHT?
02:26:39 <boily> ARGHHT.
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03:11:54 <Sgeo> `unidecode 
03:13:06 <HackEgo> U+E000 <Private Use, First> \ UTF-8: ee 80 80 UTF-16BE: e000 Decimal: &#57344; \  \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
03:14:32 <izabera> all the queries for HackEgo are sent to someone in china that will compute them by hand and type in the answer
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03:52:24 <zzo38> That character is displayable on my computer at least
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04:41:33 <pikhq> zzo38: I take it you have a ConScript font?
04:42:15 <pikhq> (that codepoint is assinged by CSUR as TENGWAR LETTER TINCO)
04:42:18 <zzo38> This IRC window is using the ISO 10646 version of the "fixed" font; I don't know what private use assignments it uses.
04:43:44 <Sgeo> in Chrome on Windows in the location bar it looks like a magnifying glass
04:44:14 <pikhq> The "fixed" font probably uses the WGL-4 assignments, which only assigns U+F001 and U+F002.
04:44:30 <pikhq> ... as duplicates of U+FB01 and U+FB02.
04:45:16 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/alexsuraci/status/755939218883432448
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04:46:00 <pikhq> Sgeo: Huh.
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04:48:46 <pikhq> I wonder if you copy-pasted that wrong; I don't see much that assigns U+E000.
04:49:21 <pikhq> Oh, of course. The PRC assigns parts of the PUA for encoding Tibetan.
04:50:13 <pikhq> Even though Tibetan is encoded. In the BMP.
04:50:19 <Sgeo> pikhq, the browser's DOM certainly thinks it's E000
04:50:48 <Sgeo> Could be Twitter foobaring it
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05:48:04 <izabera> `` type python python2
05:48:21 <HackEgo> python is /usr/bin/python \ python2 is /usr/bin/python2
05:48:43 <izabera> `` python2 -c "print' ottffssennwhoiieiieoruvxvgn ere ehe e nt'[input()::9]" <<< 8
05:48:45 <izabera> `` python2 -c "print' ottffssennwhoiieiieoruvxvgn ere ehe e nt'[input()::9]" <<< 4
05:48:47 <izabera> `` python2 -c "print' ottffssennwhoiieiieoruvxvgn ere ehe e nt'[input()::9]" <<< 1
05:48:48 <HackEgo> eight
05:49:06 <HackEgo> four
05:49:06 <HackEgo> one
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06:35:00 <\oren\> `unicode FLORAL
06:35:10 <HackEgo> U+2619 REVERSED ROTATED FLORAL HEART BULLET \ UTF-8: e2 98 99 UTF-16BE: 2619 Decimal: &#9753; \ ☙ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2766 FLORAL HEART \ UTF-8: e2 9d a6 UTF-16BE: 2766 Decimal: &#10086; \ ❦ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2767 ROTATED FLORAL HEART BULLET \ UTF-
06:39:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MayorMonty * New user account
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08:54:02 <hppavilion[2]> As anybody implemented the "Recording of a sobbing voice begging you to answer" ringtone?
09:03:51 <myname> i like the idea
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09:35:59 <Vorpal> <pikhq> Oh, of course. The PRC assigns parts of the PUA for encoding Tibetan. <-- what? China has it's own version of Unicode?
09:59:36 <hppavilion[2]> Any time someone invokes the Current Year fallacy from now on, I'm using Eternal September
10:00:56 <izabera> come on, it's 2016
10:02:26 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: No, it's September 8360, 1993
10:02:32 <izabera> ok
10:02:35 <izabera> still
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10:16:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Processor/1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48948&oldid=39970 * TuxCrafting * (+175) Added a link to my implementation
10:41:30 <hppavilion[2]> I think I have a new hobby
10:42:24 <hppavilion[2]> Fruitilation
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12:28:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: I had a strange idea for an M:tG card. Teferi's Hangover Cure | UUU | Enchantment - Aura | Enchant nonland permanent. / Enchanted permanent is an enchantment.
12:35:43 <b_jonas> (I think the name and cost just about fits in the name line of the frame; if it doesn't, then it instead has to be Hangover Cure and Teferi identified in the flavor text and art.)
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13:52:33 <Sgeo> b_jonas, that sounds useless, but I'm sure there's a way to use it to get infinite something
13:54:21 <b_jonas> Sgeo: it's NOT useless. You can use it as a Pacifism, or you can use it to hasten a {T}-ability of a creature.
13:54:39 <b_jonas> In a pinch you can also use it together with cards that care about enchantments.
13:54:53 <Sgeo> How is it like pacifism?
13:55:21 <b_jonas> Sgeo: it can enchant a creature, regardless of who controls it, and then that creature is no longer a creature, merely an enchantment, so it can't attack or block,
13:56:03 <Sgeo> It doesn't say enchanted permanent isn't any other type of permanent
13:56:31 <b_jonas> also doesn't have a p/t or creature types, is removed from combat if it was combat and you happen to attach the Cure at instant speed, many auras and equipment fall off the creature because they can't enchant non-creatures.
13:57:01 <Sgeo> Maybe it should say "Enchanted permanent is an enchantment and no other type of permanent"
13:57:30 <b_jonas> Sgeo: that's the default. A type-changing effect overwrites all types (but not subtypes) unless it says "is an artifact creature" or "in addition to its other types". You could add a reminder like "(It is no longer a creature, planeswalker, or artifact.)"
13:57:43 <Sgeo> Ah
13:58:24 <Sgeo> Sorry about the confusion
13:59:43 <b_jonas> And Teferi's Hangover Cure does more, because you can also attach it to your planeswalker, which protects it from getting attacked, and I think also protects that planeswalker from dying if the last loyalty counter is removed, such as with a planeswalker down arrow ability.
14:00:14 <Sgeo> b_jonas, how do you turn it back into a planeswalker?
14:00:16 <b_jonas> Further, you can attach it to an equipment to turn it to non-equipment.
14:00:31 <Sgeo> I assume you need to otherwise you just permanently disabled your planeswalker
14:00:51 <b_jonas> Sgeo: you didn't disable it, because the activated abilities still work
14:01:00 <Sgeo> Also are planeswalkers permanents? They act like players
14:01:03 <b_jonas> You can Disenchant the cure if you really have to disable it
14:01:19 <b_jonas> They are permanents, and they don't really act like players, except in a very few minor ways
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14:21:36 <LKoen> alternate universe: what if Magic the Gathering had made it to the video games market
14:21:47 <LKoen> just before Pokémon did
14:24:03 <LKoen> I guess Pokémon would still be popular because it appeals to young children more than Magic does; but I'm not sure how much, given that practically all of my friends were playing magic when I entered middle school (so around age 10 or 11)
14:24:30 <LKoen> also there's the logistic problem that Nintendo kinda had a monopoly with the game boy
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14:36:22 <b_jonas> LKoen: in the form M:tG had, I don't think it could have easily work as a video game, especially not on such hardware as the Game Boy
14:37:18 <LKoen> b_jonas: well, of course there's some adaptation to be done, but is it that bad?
14:37:35 <LKoen> I believe Pokémon adapted it the other way around (video game to cards) though I'm not sure about that
14:38:03 <LKoen> (and what's wrong with the game boy?)
14:38:46 <b_jonas> too little RAM, not very powerful video card
14:39:03 <LKoen> why do you need a powerful video card for a turn-based game?
14:40:19 <b_jonas> LKoen: you need a powerful video card to show card art, especially multiple cards at the same time, selected in any way, because I don't think you have enough power to dynamically build tilesets in RAM, and you can't have a large enough tileset in ROM to show any reasonable selection of cards;
14:40:36 <b_jonas> and also the display has very low resolution so you won't be able to show much card names or text at the same time
14:40:45 <b_jonas> it would be almost impossible to play that way
14:40:58 <LKoen> but it's a video game, not a card game
14:41:04 <b_jonas> even if you just show one line per card, on a text-based interface, you can't fit much info on the screen
14:41:23 <LKoen> you can show creature's sprites, and a list of possible actions
14:41:26 <b_jonas> oh, you mean a video game? that would have nothing to do with M:tG, especially not in its original 6-minute card game form
14:42:03 <b_jonas> it would be almost unrecognizable, except maybe from some heros like the Legacy, Karn, Urza, Yawgmoth, whatever appearing in both as characters
14:42:15 <b_jonas> but the game would have no relation to what we know now as early M:tG
14:42:24 <LKoen> why could Pokémon have both a successful card game and a successful video game, if Magic couldn't?
14:42:31 <b_jonas> I don't know
14:42:43 <b_jonas> probably because Magic was designed as a short card game
14:43:01 <b_jonas> but after WotC figured out how trading duel card games should work, they could turn ANY fiction to a card game
14:43:24 <LKoen> (I don't know what WotC means)
14:43:29 <b_jonas> which is why you have a Star Wars tcg, a Warcraft tcg, a Pokemon tcg, a Lord of the Rings tcg (some of those not by the WotC)
14:43:54 <b_jonas> WotC is abbreviation for "Wizards of the Coast", the company that publishes M:tG and also Pokemon tcg and Yu Gi Oh iirc
14:43:58 <Sgeo> Wizards of the Coast
14:44:01 <LKoen> oh
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14:44:18 <Sgeo> I think Pokemon TCG was transferred to someone else
14:44:36 <b_jonas> Sgeo: dunno
14:44:49 <LKoen> well, I'm not surprised that there can be a trading card game of anything. there can also be a video game after any movie; a monopoly board game; a risk board game; a lego set...
14:45:12 <LKoen> that doesn't mean the video game or the trading card game is going to be good
14:45:49 <b_jonas> I'm wrong, they aren't the ones publishing the Yu Gi Oh tcg
14:46:14 * Sgeo is considering trying the Pokemon TCG online
14:46:16 <b_jonas> they've published M:tG, created Pokemon tcg and the Star Wars tcg
14:46:27 <b_jonas> Note that M:tG was the *first* trading card game
14:46:34 <b_jonas> there had been card games and trading cards before that
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14:46:41 <b_jonas> but M:tG was the first that combined them
14:47:08 <LKoen> in fact I've noticed that a lot of fantasy films have been adapted in turn-based video games, with a boring narrative and not-so-interesting fight mechanics
14:47:28 <b_jonas> which is both why it's so influential to other TCG, and why it's so popular and long-lived despite that it has made lots of bad decisions in early times, many of which are still present as historical reasons problems
14:47:55 <b_jonas> LKoen: hehe
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14:49:27 <Sgeo> What bad decisions? As in bad rules, or other things?
14:49:42 <b_jonas> Anyway, after that, lots of other companies made TCGs, including the above mentioned Yu Gi Oh TCG, The Lord of the Rings TCG, World of Warcraft TCG, My Little Pony CCG, and lots more
14:49:46 <Sgeo> This art's kind of pretty http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:DoubleColorlessEnergyBaseSet96.jpg
14:49:56 <Sgeo> Un- lands are prettier though
14:50:11 <b_jonas> Sgeo: bad rules, bad cards, bad composition of boosters and other distribution problems
14:50:18 <b_jonas> NO! the un-lands are UGLY
14:50:24 <Sgeo> http://shop.tcgplayer.com/magic/unhinged/forest-full-art
14:50:40 <Sgeo> b_jonas, I just checked, Unglued lands are ugly, unhinged....
14:51:03 <b_jonas> Ok wait
14:51:08 <b_jonas> yes, Unglued lands are ugly
14:51:15 <b_jonas> but Unhinged lands are ok
14:51:57 <b_jonas> I guess I saw the Unglued basic lands a lot because they're so ugly they're cheap, and didn't see the Unhigned basic lands much
14:53:53 <Sgeo> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Grass_Energy_(TCG) these are... pretty but boring, if that makes sense
14:54:13 <Sgeo> Except for that "EX Holon Phantoms" print, that's kind of ugly
14:54:32 <b_jonas> Anyway, I think M:tG, Yu Gi Oh, and the Pokemon TCG are the only really popular tcgs
14:55:12 <myname> mlp
14:58:53 <Sgeo> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Rainbow_Energy_(Team_Rocket_17)#Gallery wow, the update makes more sense but removes some of the artiness
14:59:04 <LKoen> Sgeo: the heartgold & soulsilver one looks like a timid attempt to make it a forest instead of just a leaf symbol
14:59:14 <LKoen> and in the next print they went "nope"
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15:12:58 <\oren\> LKoen: I see a Who's That Pokemon! It's Celebi!
15:13:24 <\oren\> There's a Celebi silhouette in the art
15:13:41 <LKoen> yes
15:14:36 <\oren\> The other energy cards in that set seem to also have a pokemon silhouette
15:15:08 <LKoen> I remember Celebi as the "tease" Pokémon. there were a lot of hints about him in that forest in the generation 2 games, and in the gamecube game, and in the anime they carried the GS balls for like a hundred episodes
15:15:17 <LKoen> and in fact, no Celebi!!
15:16:35 <\oren\> celebi was given out at events or something
15:17:59 <LKoen> well, so was mew in the first generation, but there was no lying hint in the first games that mew was there somewhere
15:18:42 <\oren\> Well the rumors weren't lies, you could cook up a mew with several glitches
15:19:10 <LKoen> I seem to recall an NPC in the forest saying "this is the autel that belongs to the divinity that guards the forest. if you stand there long enough it will appear to you" or something
15:19:49 <LKoen> and yes mew was easy to get, I don't know if that was intentional or not
15:20:43 <LKoen> there was a glitch with the link cord in the first games that allowed to clone pokemon in an exchange; somehow this glitch made its way to all subsequent games, in similar places
15:21:01 <LKoen> sometimes it was so obvious where the glitch would be, I'm pretty convinced it's intentional
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15:26:37 <FireFly> <LKoen> well, so was mew in the first generation, but there was no lying hint in the first games that mew was there somewhere ← I think that was because AFAIK they snuck Mew into some remaining free space on the ROM at the very end, so it hadn't really been intended as a part of the game during development
15:27:00 <FireFly> whereas with the 2nd gen games they probably knew from the start that they wanted a similar event-only pokemon at the very end, and designed around that
15:27:54 <LKoen> overselling 101
15:28:42 <LKoen> your explanation makes a lot of sense, but it was still a huge disappointment
15:30:52 <FireFly> Hehe
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16:48:38 <b_jonas> but seriously, a Donate (almost) for 2R. Why would they print such a thing?
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17:07:26 <\oren\> Aha, found it; "Harmless Offering"
17:08:26 <b_jonas> \oren\: that, yes.
17:08:30 <\oren\> it has a picture of a cute cat
17:08:34 <b_jonas> yes.
17:09:15 <b_jonas> I mean, Bazaar Trader at least have the sensibility that it can't donate an ordinary enchantment.
17:09:25 <b_jonas> Most of the permanents you'd want to donate to an opponent are enchantments.
17:09:52 <b_jonas> The most popular is of course Illusions of Grandeur, but there are lots of othres
17:10:52 <\oren\> but, instead of a cat, you could give them a blood moon
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17:12:21 <b_jonas> \oren\: why would you want that? Blood Moon works just as well no matter who owns it
17:13:11 * \oren\ looks up blood moon
17:13:16 <\oren\> oh right
17:13:47 <b_jonas> give them a Null Profusion and make them discard their hand
17:13:56 <b_jonas> nah, too expensive
17:14:03 <b_jonas> you want to win before that
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17:14:54 <\oren\> the comments on Donate suggest giving them a Steel Golem
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17:15:12 <b_jonas> oh... interesting
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17:16:01 <\oren\> or things with cumulative upkeeps
17:16:36 <b_jonas> nah, they can always just sacrifice those next upkeep
17:17:00 <zzo38> Notion Thief
17:17:25 <zzo38> (if you control Consecrated Sphinx too)
17:17:29 <b_jonas> I think some people used Abyssal Persecutor together with Bazaar Trader
17:20:47 <zzo38> Whenever opponent draws a card, you may force opponent to draw two more cards.
17:23:32 <\oren\> someone suggested a hivestone
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17:24:17 <\oren\> you donate it to the other team member in a two on two
17:25:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: the red donate they printed doesn't do that
17:25:53 <\oren\> OH! Plague Sliver, Hivestone
17:26:15 -!- hydrez has changed nick to hydraz.
17:26:20 <\oren\> such troll
17:26:30 <\oren\> much gritting of teeth
17:26:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: that's sort of complicated. for a three-card combo you probably can't pull off before turn 4, I'd expect more than just a couple of damage per turn
17:27:14 <\oren\> but funny
17:28:05 <b_jonas> isn't it funnier to just Artificial Evolution the Plague Sliver?
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17:37:48 <zzo38> What you would need is my own custom card called "Urza's Safety Glasses", to protect yourself against such damage.
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20:34:15 <\oren\> I'm working on a script that formalizes the tgz repository system
20:35:45 <\oren\> A tgz repository consists of two files: a .tgz file containing the versions, and a .stamp file containing the timestamp of the most recent version.
20:37:17 <\oren\> the command $ tgzr start foo.c creates the files foo.c.tgz and foo.c.stamp
20:37:52 <\oren\> you can save the current version with tgzr save foo.c
20:38:56 <\oren\> you can go back to an earlier version with tgzr load foo.c [timestamp]
20:39:09 <zzo38> OK
20:40:43 <\oren\> and tgzr list foo.c lists valid timestamps
20:41:03 <int-e> ... do you know rcs?
20:42:39 <\oren\> that's all the functionality I've implemented
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20:43:51 <\oren\> you can of course use the exact same commands to save an entire directory, say Xproject/, with tgzr save Xproject
20:46:22 <\oren\> int-e: rcs uses diffs, something I find unnecessary.
20:46:34 <int-e> so use git then
20:46:36 <\oren\> this stores an entire copy of each version
20:46:55 <int-e> IN ANY CASE... I will not be dragged into this discussion AGAIN.
20:47:01 <shachaf> You should learn how git works.
20:47:12 <shachaf> It'd take about half an hour.
20:47:32 <\oren\> shachaf: people have told me that but it isn't rue
20:48:06 <\oren\> git is probably complicated enough for a half credit course on how it works
20:48:10 <shachaf> I mean learn how it works, not all the command line options and all that.
20:48:35 <\oren\> oh that
20:48:57 <shachaf> No one knows all those things.
20:48:58 <shachaf> Well, I don't.
20:49:31 <shachaf> But if you know what a repository state is and how to look at it, then you can figure out how to get to the state you want pretty easily.
20:49:36 <quintopia> fancy tree structures
20:50:08 <shachaf> A git repository is very similar to a bunch of .tar.gz files like you want.
20:50:53 <shachaf> A "commit" contains a "tree" (i.e. the repository contents) and some metadata.
20:51:46 <shachaf> You can go to any commit with "git checkout [commit id]"
20:53:05 <shachaf> You can name a commit by making a file that contains a commit id (that's called a "branch").
20:53:35 <\oren\> actually I should prably store the .stamp file inside the .tgz file
20:53:44 <shachaf> A commit can point to a parent, so you can look at the history that way by following commit ids.
20:53:51 <shachaf> That's pretty much all there is to it.
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20:54:36 <shachaf> It's a more straightforward model than a bunch of .tar.gz files.
20:55:03 <int-e> graphs of objects are a powerful abstraction
20:55:06 <\oren\> shachaf: not "a bunch" one .tgz file stores the entire repository
20:55:23 <shachaf> OK.
20:56:43 <shachaf> It sounds like you're describing a git repository with some useful features removed.
20:57:05 <\oren\> and some useful features, like a simple interface, added
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20:57:26 <quintopia> \oren\: if you're interested creating new inventions, i've heard the wheel, mousetraps, and the abstract concept of looking up things in lists are all ideas whose time has come, if someone is willing to develop them
20:58:09 <\oren\> quintopia: I already invented the wheel
20:58:34 <\oren\> I developed it based on the paper plate
20:59:31 <\oren\> actually I should also add the ability to delete a version from the repository
20:59:45 <quintopia> \oren\: whats a plate?
21:00:55 <\oren\> quintopia: in Canada, at barbeques, hamburgers are served on cardboard circles with flared edges
21:02:33 <\oren\> they are typically enjoyed with fries soaked in vinegar
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21:04:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48949&oldid=48946 * Darkrifts * (+86) /* Use */
21:05:45 <quintopia> (trigger warning for concarnitarians. ending in 5 minutes at most)
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21:07:14 <quintopia> \oren\: isnt the whole point of hamburgers that they are meat served on circles of bread, which not only support all the toppings and absorb the juices, but also get automatically cleaned up by being eaten?
21:08:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48951&oldid=48949 * Darkrifts * (-4) /* Use */
21:09:48 <quintopia> also hamburger is in a completely separate catrgory from barbecue
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21:17:26 <\oren\> quintopia: but you need the paper circles to hold the hamburger and the accompanying fries in one place.
21:20:09 <\oren\> wait since when is -r an invalid iption for mv
21:21:16 <int-e> you can't really move a directory without moving its contents as well
21:22:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=48952 * Darkrifts * (+708) Created page with "This is a standard for compiling code for being read by the FOS system by ~~~. This standard is being developed to allow for people to design their own compilers for other lan..."
21:25:58 <\oren\> int-e: it would be hilarious though
21:26:24 <\oren\> mv fooproject newproject/foo
21:26:46 <\oren\> "Wait, why are the foo project files in my home directory now?"
21:27:16 <\oren\> "You didn't use the -r option to mv, so they fell out."
21:32:56 <\oren\> int-e: that begs the question why is -r a valid option for cp?
21:33:16 <\oren\> or that matter rm?
21:36:53 <\oren\> all they do is, they refuse to copy or delete a directory normally until they get their -r biscuit^H^H^H^H option
21:38:20 <int-e> disk space is scarce, so cp -r makes sense, and you might want to keep all your files even if you typo a file name... so it's good for damage control
21:38:36 <\oren\> and then there is the fact that rmdir and mkdir exist but not cpdir, mvdir, or a mk command
21:38:42 <int-e> an mv operation (within the same fs) is lossless and doesn't cost disk space
21:39:18 <\oren\> alias mk touch
21:39:18 <myname> > (length [1..]) > 6
21:39:22 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
21:39:31 <myname> interesting
21:39:37 <int-e> of course *you* would create directories by using cp / foo without -r.
21:40:41 <\oren\> myname: isn't it some other language that does proof analysis on its code, not haskell?
21:41:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48953&oldid=48952 * Darkrifts * (+1120) /* Documentation */
21:42:49 <\oren\> > ([1..].length) > 6
21:42:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Int -> c0’
21:42:50 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[Integer]’
21:42:50 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(.)’, namely ‘[1 .. ]’
21:42:52 <int-e> myname: there are lazy nats somewhere, which allow you to do things like genericLength [1..] > (6 :: <whatever the type is>)
21:43:28 <\oren\> apparently haskell isn't object oriented
21:43:39 <int-e> fortunately
21:43:46 <\oren\> indeed
21:45:49 <int-e> :t (&)
21:45:50 <lambdabot> a -> (a -> b) -> b
21:46:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48954&oldid=48953 * Darkrifts * (+115) /* Documentation */
21:46:20 <int-e> > ([1..]&length) > 6
21:46:24 <lambdabot> mueval-core: Time limit exceeded
21:46:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48956&oldid=48954 * Darkrifts * (-352) /* Documentation */
21:47:50 <\oren\> > foldr (\x y -> x | y) (map (\x -> x > 6) [1..])
21:47:52 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:18: parse error on input ‘|’
21:47:58 <\oren\> > foldr (\x y -> x or y) (map (\x -> x > 6) [1..])
21:48:00 <lambdabot> No instance for (Typeable t0)
21:48:00 <lambdabot> (maybe you haven't applied enough arguments to a function?)
21:48:00 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M180418725283436766211592’
21:48:09 <\oren\> > foldr (\x y -> x || y) (map (\x -> x > 6) [1..])
21:48:11 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’ with actual type ‘[Bool]’
21:48:11 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘foldr’, namely
21:48:11 <lambdabot> ‘(map (\ x -> x > 6) [1 .. ])’
21:48:40 <int-e> :t foldr
21:48:41 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
21:48:50 <int-e> you need a starting value (second argument)
21:49:08 <int-e> @src or
21:49:08 <lambdabot> or = foldr (||) False
21:49:09 <\oren\> > foldr (\x y -> x || y) False (map (\x -> x > 6) [1..])
21:49:10 <lambdabot> True
21:49:20 <\oren\> there we go!
21:49:30 <int-e> @src any
21:49:30 <lambdabot> any p = or . map p
21:49:40 <int-e> > any (> 6) [1..]
21:49:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48957&oldid=48956 * Darkrifts * (+275)
21:49:41 <lambdabot> True
21:49:50 <\oren\> it figured out somehow that doing any more entries was useless
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22:48:48 <shachaf> What was the git article that someone in here linked the other day?
22:48:54 <shachaf> I think \oren\ refused to read it that time, too.
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22:56:13 <hppavilion[1]> "datums"
22:59:10 <int-e> I linked to http://eagain.net/articles/git-for-computer-scientists/ and http://nyuccl.org/pages/gittutorial/ ... is it one of those?
23:00:36 <shachaf> Probably.
23:01:07 <shachaf> What changes would you make to git to make it possible to check out a subdirectory of a repository in a reasonable way?
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23:08:23 <int-e> you'd need a more elaborate send-pack/receive-pack pair, I think, one that is based on more information than just refs (commit objects). (https://git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Git-Internals-Transfer-Protocols gives a glimpse into that protocol)
23:09:03 <int-e> alternatively you could just re-record the commit objects for a subdirectory
23:10:43 <shachaf> Well, imagine you could lazily load hash values as necessary. That seems like it could be doable, even if it would require changes to the protocol.
23:11:09 <shachaf> There's still the issue that commits are global, so you'd need the entire commit history for a repository to `git log` a subdirectory.
23:11:16 <int-e> I mean, that should be easy: Take each commit but replace the tree reference to a subdirectory and the parent references (since the commit ids will be different)...
23:11:24 <shachaf> I'm not what you can really do about that.
23:11:45 <shachaf> int-e: Oh, but then what happens when you want to push a changed version?
23:12:09 <int-e> nothing pretty
23:12:26 <shachaf> I was thinking you would just be checking out the whole repository, but not downloading the contents for the directories you aren't using.
23:12:36 <shachaf> Seems like that much ought to be pretty straightforward.
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23:14:07 <int-e> you didn't say that you want commits as well. in any case I was just thinking about what one could do without changing the send/receive protocol.
23:14:46 <shachaf> What I want is to be able to use git for a giant repository.
23:15:37 <shachaf> Say, a couple billion lines of code, and tens of thousands of developers. Just to arbitrarily choose some numbers.
23:15:45 <shachaf> Or maybe not git but something git-like. What sorts of changes would you need to make to how it works?
23:15:53 <int-e> look, just add a subdirectory command to the protocol :P
23:16:08 <int-e> it can't be that hard.... *runs*
23:16:16 <shachaf> It's not a question of the protocol.
23:16:46 <shachaf> Are you suggesting that when you clone a subdirectory, the server rewrites the entire commit history for that subdirectory to make it convenient for the client?
23:16:59 <int-e> no.
23:17:23 <int-e> I don't agree, it's very much a question of the protocol.
23:17:41 <shachaf> Well. OK. It's a question of the protocol, among other things.
23:19:10 <shachaf> Anyway there are other issues, like rename tracking.
23:19:47 <int-e> Sure, there's more. But the plumbing is there... you can read a commit, look at the tree, find the subdirectory you're interested in, then checkout that tree object.
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23:20:51 <shachaf> Right.
23:20:53 <int-e> To my mind the missing thing on the plumbing side is the selective transfer. The rest is porcellain... still tedious to write for sure.
23:21:03 <shachaf> But now how do you look at the commit history on that subdirectory?
23:21:51 <int-e> the way I imagine it you will have all the commit objects anyway...
23:22:05 <shachaf> Right.
23:22:27 <shachaf> But that makes for a pretty long commit history.
23:22:30 <int-e> and git log already supports selecting commits affecting certain paths.
23:22:52 * int-e shrugs
23:23:17 <shachaf> hg stores log information per file or directory, I think.
23:23:20 <shachaf> `` ls .hg
23:23:47 <HackEgo> 00changelog.i \ branch \ branchheads.cache \ cache \ dirstate \ last-message.txt \ requires \ store \ tags.cache \ undo.bookmarks \ undo.branch \ undo.desc \ undo.dirstate
23:24:04 <shachaf> `` find .hg | grep canary
23:24:25 <HackEgo> ​.hg/store/data/looptest/canary.i \ .hg/store/data/canary.orig \ .hg/store/data/canary.orig/canary.i \ .hg/store/data/canary.orig.i \ .hg/store/data/temp-canary.i \ .hg/store/data/canary.i \ .hg/store/data/wisdom/canary.i \ .hg/store/data/canary \ .hg/store/data/canary/test.i \ .hg/store/data/canary/hmm.i \ .hg/store/data/canary/canary.i
23:24:57 <shachaf> Do those store log history or something else? I don't remember, if I ever knew.
23:25:03 <shachaf> hg also tracks renames explicitly.
23:25:14 <shachaf> Maybe these sorts of reasons have to do with why Facebook chose hg instead of git.
23:26:31 <int-e> `` ls -la .hg/store/00*
23:26:36 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 1402355 Jul 19 01:06 .hg/store/00changelog.d \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 564864 Jul 19 01:06 .hg/store/00changelog.i \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 1370860 Jul 19 01:06 .hg/store/00manifest.d \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 5000 564032 Jul 19 01:06 .hg/store/00manifest.i
23:27:51 <zzo38> I chose fossil instead of hg or git
23:29:20 <shachaf> zzo38: I would be astonished if you chose a mainstream version control system.
23:29:58 <int-e> shachaf: http://hgbook.red-bean.com/read/behind-the-scenes.html ... so perhaps you won't win very much, unless you find ways to divide the 00changelog and 00manifest things into smaller pieces.
23:30:32 <int-e> ("win much" is in comparison to doing the same with git)
23:32:27 <int-e> Btw I actually dislike the fact that mercurial replicates file names in its storage...
23:32:31 <shachaf> I met Bryan once and he told me that hg was better suited to this sort of thing than git.
23:34:00 <int-e> But I can see that it's better suited to work over plain HTTP. So the whole protocol issue won't come up at all.
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23:35:36 <int-e> but in any case, the problem of fetching metadata of all those commits that happen elsewhere is not solved by hg.
23:35:57 <int-e> (not without investing extra work)
23:36:03 <shachaf> Of course.
23:37:03 <int-e> it was solved by CVS ;-)
23:37:21 * int-e hides behind a bush.
23:37:37 <shachaf> Of course.
23:37:55 <shachaf> Facebook uses svn on the server and hg on the client, I hear.
23:41:17 <int-e> Hmmm, true, SVN should actually be good at the partial checkout thing... but not with history? I know nothing about its internals.
23:42:40 <int-e> (All I really know is that git-svn is abysmally slow, but I don't know whether it's git-svn or svn itself that's being stupid there)
23:43:39 <int-e> and I bring up git-svn because that's the tool I use to clone an svn repo including history.
23:43:45 <quintopia> wow they're still talking about vcs
23:44:46 <shachaf> In svn you just ask the server for history, right?
23:51:14 <int-e> oh wow, this is elaborate... https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/subversion/trunk/subversion/libsvn_ra_svn/protocol
23:52:38 <izabera> http://www.duelist101.com/other-w101-guides/w101-spell-guides/wizard101-new-level-110-astral-spells/ OOOOOOHH after like 5 years we finally get a +300 enchantment
23:54:17 <Vorpal> int-e: git doesn't track renames??
23:54:25 <Vorpal> that seems pretty crappy
23:54:33 <shachaf> It detects renames.
23:55:47 <Vorpal> Also I remember reading somewhere that git doesn't include the author as part of the commit ID (the hash of it), which means two people can do the same change and they get the same hash, but with different authors listed
23:55:52 <Vorpal> that also seems stupid
23:56:06 <Vorpal> the commit message *may* need to be the same for that to happen, I don't remember
23:56:36 <shachaf> The author is part of the commit.
23:56:44 <Vorpal> I don't remember the details, just that some part of the meta data of the commit was not part of the hash
23:56:47 <Vorpal> shachaf: hm, okay
23:56:53 <shachaf> I.e. you hash the author, committer, directory, etc. to get a commit hash.
23:57:12 <Vorpal> I would hope so
23:59:12 <Vorpal> good night
23:59:18 <shachaf> @time Vorpal
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