←2016-07-31 2016-08-01 2016-08-02→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:01:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, maybe we should start storing Ozone that we can fire into the atmosphere when needed
00:05:35 <wob_jonas> Taneb: sure, it already includes http://oeis.org/A107357 and http://oeis.org/A053169
00:06:14 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, that's the original phrasing of the puzzle.
00:06:30 <shachaf> int-e: But it turns out that Wikipedia is wrong, and it says "universality" instead of "non-universality".
00:07:00 <shachaf> I.e. universality is coNP-complete
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00:11:39 <int-e> shachaf: yes, I saw that clarification yesterday, thanks!
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00:34:07 <Xnuk> How do you pronounce ///? http://esolangs.org/wiki////
00:34:20 <oerjan> "slashes"
00:36:41 <Xnuk> oerjan: thanks
00:36:54 <oerjan> you're welcome
00:37:02 <oerjan> `relcome Xnuk
00:37:19 <HackEgo> Xnuk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, Goonies never say "die"
00:49:58 <hppavilion[1]> They must have a hard time playing DnD with English majors
00:51:10 <shachaf> I don't think English majors are particularly pedantic.
00:51:23 <shachaf> But surely they have trouble playing in German.
00:51:52 <shachaf> I learned that fact from The Onion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAa8Rf_a_Mo
00:54:38 <oerjan> de:die is not a homophone of en:die hth
00:55:41 <shachaf> Right.
00:55:49 <shachaf> And you think it's the latter than they never say?
00:56:05 <shachaf> Given that they speak English and not German, the former seems more likely.
00:56:05 <oerjan> i dunno, i have no idea what goonies are.
00:56:21 <shachaf> @google goonies
00:56:23 <lambdabot> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089218/
00:56:23 <lambdabot> Title: The Goonies (1985) - IMDb
00:57:23 <wob_jonas> wow. this travel insurance actually has a price per day that isn't an integer number of HUF. you rarely see that nowadays.
00:57:53 <wob_jonas> most things are rounded to integer HUF, except for very cheap things like per minute prices of mobile phone calls.
00:59:18 <shachaf> HUF is what came before HUG?
00:59:40 <shachaf> whoa, 1 HUF < 0.01 USD
01:00:02 <shachaf> Even 0.01 USD is too fine-grained for most things.
01:01:13 <pikhq> It's not that uncommon for currencies to be similarly overly-fine-grained though.
01:01:44 <wob_jonas> shachaf: sure, which is why the smallest cash coin is 5 HUF, and most bank transactions and similar are restricted to multiples of 1 HUF, but prices can still be fine grained even though they're usually multiples of 1 HUF for cheap things and multiples of 10 HUF for expensive things.
01:01:50 <pikhq> 1 KRW < 0.001 USD, for example.
01:02:11 <shachaf> How fine-grained should stock prices be?
01:02:16 <wob_jonas> You can have prices to high resolution and round for the whole transaction.
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01:03:19 <pikhq> Though, the KRW no longer has 1 KRW coins in circulation...
01:03:20 <shachaf> Until 2001, US stock prices were measured in sixteenths of a dollar.
01:03:26 <shachaf> Now they're measured in cents.
01:03:57 <shachaf> I mean the finest granularity.
01:04:25 <shachaf> It's called the tick size, and there are all sorts of trade-offs for deciding what it should be.
01:04:35 <shachaf> It seems silly to have the same tick size for expensive stocks and cheap stocks, though.
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01:07:34 <wob_jonas> In particular, the price of gas (petrol) for cars is shown per liters, and is usually shown as a multiple of 0.001 or 0.01 HUF. The price of household water and sewage in this location is 469.06 HUF per cubic meter.
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01:20:45 <hppavilion[1]> ahoily
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01:36:32 <oerjan> bohily
01:37:12 <boily> hppavellon[1]!
01:37:16 <boily> hellørjan!
01:38:17 <hppavilion[1]> I declare the winner of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njos57IJf-0 [Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates. Epic Rap Battles of History Season 2.] to be Richard Stallman
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02:28:23 <Sgeo> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bizarre-proof-to-torment-mathematicians-for-years-to-come/
02:28:27 <boily> there was a greater mummy behind khufu... holy fungot I didn't see it...
02:28:28 <fungot> boily: next it unveiled the latest to benefit of any party other than ena also sold more to do the right thing on the sidelines for any period. if you have not had any more.
02:28:31 <Sgeo> So, almost like the proof is bad code?
02:28:49 <boily> fungot: I'm still alive!
02:28:50 <fungot> boily: for complete information on the first is the pulmonary injury by capacity and fuel to the rate to a policy what policy: " section vii of the bond, the treasurer of each company
02:33:26 <boily> okay, not alive. got berserk and petrified at the same time.
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03:23:40 <Cale> Sgeo: Or code written in a programming language that nobody understands except Mochizuki
03:24:13 <Cale> Sgeo: I think it would be pretty hilarious if this was all an elaborate troll
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03:40:49 <Jafet> there are computer proofs written in languages that nobody else understands
03:41:17 <Jafet> the proofs work when you check them, but no one knows why
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05:23:14 <oerjan> `? password
05:23:34 <HackEgo> The password of the month is late.
05:30:11 <oerjan> <quintopia> it's too easy for alt+5 to slip and become alt+f4==instakill app <-- that's pretty much how my hydra died, except with fn instead of alt.
05:30:49 <quintopia> oerjan: well, killing the hydra was the goal, right?
05:30:54 <oerjan> and f5 instead of 5, probably.
05:31:00 <oerjan> quintopia: not quite that way.
05:31:24 <quintopia> oerjan: picky. just be happy the goal was accomplished
05:31:39 <oerjan> OKANEVER
05:40:14 <baordog> oerjan: You cracking stuff?
05:40:54 <oerjan> only GHC hth
05:43:51 <oerjan> @massages-lout
05:43:51 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
05:44:05 <oerjan> @massages-lout
05:44:05 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
05:44:10 <oerjan> huh.
05:44:23 <oerjan> ...maybe there was a ^O.
05:51:02 <zzo38> In my Linux system though, ALT+F4 has no special use. (When in text mode, it switches to screen 4, but in X you need CTRL+ALT+F4 to switch to screen 4.) (But I think the default window manager and desktop environment for Ubuntu does use ALT+F4 and some other stuff similar to Windows to make it easier for Windows users, but I have uninstalled those things.)
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06:56:10 <orin> It is a bad idea to watch love live and fly an airplane at the same time
06:56:37 <orin> i crashed into a mountain
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07:39:34 <moon_> Moo
07:55:15 <orin> ooom
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08:03:11 <orin> Oh crap it happened
08:04:35 <orin> I was watching anime and --oh shit I've actually been to that exact place in tokyo where the character's standing!
08:04:51 <int-e> shachaf: okay, in the end I think membership in coNP is easier than coNP-hardness. (I don't know an NP-complete problem that embeds naturally)
08:05:13 <orin> really weird feeling of deja vu
08:06:20 <orin> what would you call deja vu induced by a cartoon
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08:08:17 <orin> "deja toon"
08:09:59 <shachaf> int-e: I found an article that has a reduction from 3SAT
08:10:56 <int-e> does it work for arbitrary CNFs or is the size of clauses actually used?
08:11:02 <orin> whoever drew this must have been sketching from the balcony of the McDonalds that overlooks Shinjuku
08:12:03 <shachaf> I think it'd work for arbitrary CNFs?
08:12:52 <shachaf> But I'm typing on my phone at the train station. Will probably be able to say more later.
08:13:49 <int-e> shachaf: then it may be doing a similar thing to what I've dreamed up.
08:13:50 <shachaf> Anyway the coNP argument is probably something like "raise the adjacency matrix to the nth power"
08:14:03 <int-e> and yes, it is
08:17:33 <int-e> Hmm, the current Schlock Mercenary story arc would fit perfectly under "Force Multiplication". Too bad that book title is already taken within the series :P
08:18:10 <moon_> Im trying to run a game in a way that people can play it all together through telnet. How should i do this? Im thinking bash
08:19:41 <oerjan> isn't that what MUDs are for.
08:20:24 <moon_> Im trying to hae fun by haveing a bunch of people play a single instance of dwarf fortress over telnet
08:21:53 <farrioth> Twitch plays Dwarf Fortress?
08:22:03 * oerjan points at the non-present ais523
08:22:09 <farrioth> And good luck getting that going over telnet...
08:22:22 <moon_> Putty then
08:22:24 <moon_> ?
08:23:01 <oerjan> could screen or tmux work that way?
08:23:06 <farrioth> Dwarf Fortress is a graphical program (even when not using graphical tiles).
08:23:09 <moon_> no
08:23:16 <moon_> Linux has text mode
08:23:22 <moon_> S does mac
08:23:41 <farrioth> Really?
08:23:44 <moon_> mhm
08:23:57 <farrioth> Since what version?
08:24:02 <moon_> Change the graphics setting from 2D to TEXT
08:24:11 <moon_> dunno, long while
08:24:56 <farrioth> You're not mistaking the normal (non-tiles) mode for an actual console-based mode?
08:25:04 <moon_> nope
08:25:10 <moon_> i've used it over ssh
08:25:55 <moon_> and i helped develop a discord bot that has a selfupdating (message ediT) emulated terminal, it could display df too
08:26:08 <moon_> the bot hasent been on for a while
08:26:11 <farrioth> That is news to me, then.
08:26:15 <moon_> lol
08:26:40 <moon_> well, how would i broker it using bash, i have ncat (that comes with nmap) if that helps
08:28:37 <farrioth> Hmm, documentation says, "primitive ncurses output". You are correct.
08:29:10 <farrioth> You'd probably want to use whatever it is that nethack@alt.org uses, let me see what it's called.
08:29:25 <moon_> no, single game instance
08:29:33 <moon_> im nit running a hoard of df lo,
08:29:36 <farrioth> Although you want everyone controlling one instance, right, not just providing it as a service?
08:29:41 <moon_> mhm
08:29:51 <farrioth> I'd just use screen, then.
08:30:42 <moon_> And what would i do with the screen? I need to know how to broker it
08:31:03 <farrioth> I'm not really sure what you mean by broker here.
08:31:31 <moon_> Be a server, transmit the games data to the users and give the game their input
08:32:26 <farrioth> So you're just connecting multiple terminal endpoints to the same program and sending that all the input from all the terminals?
08:32:52 <moon_> Mhm lol
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08:35:37 <farrioth> Just have everyone connect to the same screen session, I suppose.
08:36:37 <moon_> But i dont know how i should do that in bash, or is there something about screens i dont know
08:36:59 <farrioth> I don't think you need to involve bash at all.
08:37:44 <moon_> What should i use? Node.js and C++ are my main kanguages, am i just looking at this wrong?
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08:38:35 <farrioth> I'm not sure what part of it you feel requires any programming.
08:39:04 <moon_> Hi hppavilion[1] .
08:39:17 <hppavilion[1]> Helloon
08:41:26 <moon_> You know a good way to allow multiple people to telnet to a system and use one instance of a prgram, in this case dwaf fortress?
08:42:13 <farrioth> What was wrong with my suggestion? :/
08:42:59 <moon_> I really just dont get how im going to USE the screen.
08:43:16 <oerjan> he means "screen", the program.
08:43:39 <moon_> I know, i dont know what to do with it afterwrds
08:44:07 <farrioth> So people log in and then all connect to the same screen session. Their input is all sent to whatever's running in it, and they all see the output of whatever's running in it.
08:44:22 <moon_> Problem: open server
08:44:53 <farrioth> So you run Dwarf Fortress inside screen, then people log in, and attach to that screen session.
08:45:09 <farrioth> I'd personally do it over ssh, but you could use telnet if you wanted to.
08:45:37 <moon_> Err, but then i have to give them access to the system, i only want them to have dwarf fortress
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08:47:01 <farrioth> They're always going to need to log in to the system, you just need to stop them from running anything other than screen or Dwarf Fortress.
08:47:20 <farrioth> How to stop screen from being able to execute arbitrary commands is a good question, though.
08:49:19 <moon_> Thought so, i just want to do something with the output, send it to the users, and get input
08:52:34 <farrioth> Unbinding C-a : should be sufficient, I think.
08:52:55 <farrioth> But you'll probably want to unbind some other stuff too so users don't try and do annoying stuff.
08:54:01 <moon_> I personally think that adding screen is a bit of a waste, i dont see where its needes in the input => program => output => repeat loop
08:57:01 <farrioth> It effectively virtualizes a terminal and allows multiple endpoints to be connected to it.
08:57:18 <farrioth> In other words, it lets people log in on multiple terminals and see the same thing.
08:58:28 <farrioth> (And send input to it.)
09:01:41 <izabera> last week i was testing stuff and added debug code that dumped a structure to /tmp/izdump
09:01:50 <izabera> it turns out that shit is now packaged and shipped -_-
09:02:00 <moon_> Gg
09:02:15 <farrioth> It looks like you can actually use screen's builtin acl support to stop users from executing commands.
09:03:18 <moon_> Hmm.. damn a example script eould help lol, but ok, im following
09:03:35 <izabera> google isn't providing solutions for "unship code"
09:03:43 <moon_> Lol
09:08:30 <farrioth> I'll have a go at one, hold on.
09:08:59 <int-e> did it brick the devices? no -> push update to the previous release. yes -> cash in your stock in the company and move far away
09:09:38 <izabera> int-e: it's not my fault! that wasn't supposed to end up in prod
09:09:42 <izabera> i don't wanna move away
09:09:59 <b_jonas> My "f" finger hurts. I wonder if I should hold a pen between that finger and the left thumb to make sure I'm not typing with it, because typing just makes it hurt more.
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09:11:25 <Jafet> you could remap f to capslock (and r and v, for good measure.)
09:12:01 <farrioth> moon_: To be honest I think this will do it:
09:12:01 <farrioth> escape ''
09:12:02 <farrioth> bind ^d detach
09:13:56 <farrioth> Unless ^d does something in Dwarf Fortress; I can't remember.
09:23:33 <moon_> Dwarf fortress overrides ^d
09:25:28 <farrioth> Pick some other keystroke it doesn't use, then (if there are any :p).
09:25:51 <farrioth> You could use a prefix like screen normally does, it would make the config longer is all.
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09:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> ...why the hell does the H○ scale convert real-world feet to scale-world millimeters?
09:38:49 <farrioth> Because 16.5 mm is a nice value for rail spacing?
09:39:02 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: But is it really?
09:39:18 <hppavilion[1]> Personally, I think all railroad models should be in 87:1
09:39:21 <izabera> `` echo open shell? Hopefully no # moon_
09:39:31 <HackEgo> open shell? Hopefully no
09:40:03 <moon_> Ik, but thats sandboxed, and so is shbot, i didnt know what you used
09:40:12 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: 87:1 not 1:87? :p
09:40:18 <izabera> shbot has a much stricter sandbox
09:40:24 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: Yes.
09:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: Your model has to be larger than the original.
09:42:25 <hppavilion[1]> I think a good xkcdsw would be http://xkcd.com/1294/, but "telescope" becomes "dildo"
09:44:04 <myname> railroad models should be 1:1
09:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> myname: All railroad models should be made in 1:89+41i
09:49:11 <farrioth> Lol.
09:50:58 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i am okay with that
09:51:31 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps model train layouts should be logarithmic?
09:52:48 <myname> 1:i*pi
09:52:58 <moon_> You know what, just plain out how do you stream a program to multiple users using telnet?
09:54:39 <hppavilion[1]> Interestingly, I was introduced to Never Gonna Give You Up by anything other than 4chan
09:55:30 <myname> that's easy if you don't 4chan
10:00:07 <farrioth> moon_: Normally you don't need to do such a thing, since for most services you'd fork per connection.
10:00:39 <farrioth> In fact, I can't really think of a use case apart for something like this or nethack@alt.org, etc.
10:00:49 <farrioth> I'd be interested if there are, thoguh.
10:00:54 <farrioth> *though
10:01:09 <moon_> Im good now
10:05:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, but the first time I heard it was in the movie "Miracle in Toyworld" or something like that
10:05:50 <hppavilion[1]> So it's permanently associated with that
10:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> If HO is supposed to be H0, is there an H1?
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15:25:07 <b_jonas> ah!
15:39:11 <int-e> oh!
15:41:26 <Taneb> uh?
15:42:48 <myname> eh.
15:44:55 <izabera> æ ø å you ain't got the æ ø å
15:48:48 <int-e> nor the äöü
15:49:41 <int-e> nor аиоуэ
15:49:59 <int-e> (greek anyone?)
16:17:15 <b_jonas> `olist 1046
16:17:44 <HackEgo> olist 1046: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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16:33:00 * ybden appreciates `? chicken
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20:20:27 <quintopia> @metar katl
20:20:27 <lambdabot> KATL 011911Z 24006KT 10SM -RA FEW020 SCT075 BKN100 BKN250 28/24 A3008 RMK AO2 RAB02 TSE11 TS MOV SE CB DSNT NE & DSNT S-SW-W TCU DSNT N-NE & DSNT SW SHRA DSNT S-SW-W P0000 T02830239
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20:20:32 <quintopia> not bad
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20:36:25 <Taneb> @metar LIPZ
20:36:26 <lambdabot> LIPZ 011920Z 03009KT CAVOK 24/15 Q1015 NOSIG
20:37:15 <Taneb> Going there on Wednesday
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20:40:58 <izabera> and checking @metar now helps?
20:41:51 <shachaf> And saying "and checking @metar now helps?" helps?
20:43:15 <izabera> yes
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20:48:34 <Taneb> izabera, I have a friend near there right now
20:48:40 <Taneb> Also I can't actually read meta
20:48:40 <Taneb> r
20:48:47 <Taneb> It just makes me feel like I'm doing something
20:48:50 <shachaf> No one can read METAR.
20:49:15 <Taneb> And the friend is closer to LIPB anyway
20:49:27 <Taneb> @metar LIPB
20:49:28 <lambdabot> LIPB 011850Z VRB02KT 9999 SCT090 24/14 Q1015
20:49:44 <shachaf> Taneb: All you need to do is look at the two numbers separated by a /
20:49:55 <shachaf> The first one is temperature.
20:50:04 <shachaf> That's all I know about METAR.
20:50:22 <shachaf> `? metar
20:50:29 <izabera> the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport
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20:50:36 <HackEgo> metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
20:50:41 <Phantom_Hoover> the second number is apparently the dew point
20:50:56 <shachaf> I knew that.
20:51:00 <izabera> the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport, also called the dew point
20:51:02 <shachaf> But I didn't know what dew point was.
20:51:22 <Phantom_Hoover> the dew point is apparently the point at which you get dew
20:51:52 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s# w# metar, w#
20:51:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:52:53 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, are you sure you'd never invent a genetic algorithm with sexual reproduction?
20:53:00 <shachaf> Wait, Taneb invented Tanebventions?
20:53:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, fairly
20:53:28 <Taneb> With modern technology, sex is completely unnecessary for algorithms, you see
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20:53:58 <Taneb> Although I've not a clue about genetic programming
20:54:03 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, well obviously, who else would invent them
20:54:09 <Taneb> (doing a module on it next term)
20:54:17 <Phantom_Hoover> they'd be izaberaventions or whatever in that case
20:54:31 <Taneb> izabera, have you been inventing tanebventions
20:54:41 <izabera> not yet
20:54:45 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, there you go
20:55:29 <izabera> i was planning to
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20:55:37 <izabera> but it takes a while
20:55:40 <izabera> it's a long project
20:55:53 <shachaf> Not really.
20:56:00 <shachaf> You just put the tanebvention in the wisdom entry.
20:56:05 <shachaf> Taneb is the one who has to do the hard work.
20:56:22 <izabera> that's the lazy way
20:56:59 <Taneb> shachaf, what izabera is planning is to invent something and convince me and everyone else that I was the one who invented it
20:57:19 <shachaf> D-modules were the first Tanebvention, right?
20:57:29 <izabera> something something three headed dildos ?
20:57:53 <Taneb> shachaf, I believe so
20:58:03 <shachaf> I think that falls outside the purview of Tanebventions.
20:58:42 <Taneb> izabera, I'm no expert but I think three headed dildos involve sex
20:59:35 <izabera> it's your invention
20:59:42 <izabera> make something up with it
20:59:55 <shachaf> I think Taneb would rather just uninvent it.
21:00:03 <izabera> too late
21:00:12 <izabera> patent pending
21:00:24 <shachaf> Taneb never invented it in the first place.
21:00:33 <izabera> whoa easy there
21:00:33 <shachaf> `? taneb
21:00:35 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:01:02 <Taneb> Can someone who knows the HackEgo magic change that eight to a nine please
21:02:03 <shachaf> Taneb: The magic is this: `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:02:27 <Taneb> `swld taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:02:28 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swld: not found
21:02:31 <Taneb> ARE YOU SURE
21:02:43 <shachaf> YES HTH
21:02:51 <shachaf> but you gotta type it correctly
21:02:51 <Taneb> `? taneb
21:02:54 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:03:01 <Taneb> `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine#
21:03:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:03:16 <Taneb> shachaf, I haven't invented typing things correctly yet tht
21:03:27 <shachaf> `? tht
21:03:29 <HackEgo> tht? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:03:44 <Taneb> It's hth but I haven't invented typing things correctly
21:04:08 -!- dleled has joined.
21:05:48 <izabera> yet
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21:14:25 <moon_> Hi
21:18:59 <orin> mhelloon!
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21:40:01 <moon_> I've started playing around in MSDOS 6.22
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21:40:51 <int-e> the best OS ever to come out of the house of Microsoft
21:41:10 <int-e> (I hope my University OS professor doesn't read this ;-) )
21:41:56 <moon_> lol what does he prefer win10?
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21:43:11 <int-e> Probably not.
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21:44:00 <int-e> But DOS offers almost none of the defining features of an OS, most notably it does not offer any multitasking or isolation of multiple processes or access control.
21:44:18 <shachaf> I prefer Windows 10 to MS-DOS 6.22
21:44:40 <int-e> That MS botnet is scary.
21:45:49 <int-e> (I honestly believe that this term is 100% accurate in this context: It is software that phones home automatically and updates itself with whatever code its masters provide, automatically.)
21:46:22 <int-e> Of course Android isn't much different.
21:46:50 <int-e> Most Linux distros on the other hand, are... though perhaps not different enough to matter in practice.
21:49:22 <shachaf> What about web software?
21:49:37 <shachaf> All software is becoming web software.
21:50:00 <int-e> You mean SaaS?
21:50:13 <int-e> "web software" is not a meaningful term to me.
21:50:59 <moon_> hmm... Hey, b_jonas, you here?
21:51:15 <shachaf> I mean software written in JavaScritp and delivered to a web browser.
21:51:26 <int-e> horrible.
21:51:35 <shachaf> Well, being written in JavaScript isn't even that important.
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21:52:08 <int-e> But it kind of depends on how good the sandboxing is.
21:52:17 <int-e> And what you do with it...
21:52:31 <int-e> ...a web online game I have no trouble with.
21:53:05 <int-e> ...a web office program that may cease existing tomorrow... that's an entirely different matter.
21:53:14 <int-e> but not really part of the botnet problem in my view
21:53:18 <int-e> more the opposite
21:53:24 <int-e> (dual, if you like)
21:53:33 <shachaf> It has the same auto-update issue.
21:53:37 <Zekka> int-e: W10 is a botnet under those terms imho, it's just hypothetically a desirable one
21:53:46 <shachaf> Every time you start up the software, you fetch a brand new copy from the web server.
21:53:48 <int-e> shachaf: yes it does, hence the sandboxing
21:54:05 <shachaf> OK, so run Windows 10 in a VM, I guess?
21:54:21 <int-e> shachaf: which allows me to think of it as an extension of *THEIR* server using some of my own computing resources
21:54:39 <Zekka> there is lots of software that updates the same way -- the reason a botnet is evil is because it does evil things with your computer resources
21:54:49 <shachaf> I'm sure Microsoft would like for you to think of Windows the same way.
21:55:15 <int-e> yes, Win 10 in a VM is an option... well... once we find a secure hypervisor. :P
21:55:16 <Zekka> (disclaimer: MS employee here)
21:55:36 <int-e> Zekka: the technology is neutral.
21:55:58 <Zekka> FWIW I'm not qualified to assess if W10 is doing evil -- I have friends who worked on it who said the parts they worked on did not appear to be doing evil
21:56:02 <int-e> and from a technological perspective there's not enough of a difference that it matters to me.
21:56:18 <Zekka> it's possible, even likely that there are parts he didn't work on that are evil
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21:57:46 <int-e> (and this whole way we're doing software... as indicated above this is not limited to MS or even the commerical world... has ramification that I really don't want to think about. For example, for cryptography. Your crypto software may be secure now, but it can be backdoored without notice.)
21:58:07 <wob_jonas> Oh man. I'll indeed so have to buy a new computer in autumn. I love this one and it's served it well, it will probably retire with full honors, but it's just SLOW.
21:58:20 <Zekka> FWIW I think you should never assume your data is safe because of crypto
21:58:23 <int-e> Hmm, computer.
21:58:34 <int-e> Will MS still allow me to install my Win 7 copy on another machine?
21:58:40 <Zekka> you can shake your fist at companies like microsoft because we've probably backdoored our crypto implementations in one place or another
21:59:06 <Zekka> But afaik usually it's humans following bad security precautions that compromise security situations
21:59:06 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Install Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS 6.22
21:59:16 <int-e> Or will that be the point where I give up on Windows altogether and suffer through the lmited supply of games that work on Linux?
21:59:24 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I have them in an emulator
21:59:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: have you seen termbot? that runs ms-dos 6.22
21:59:34 <Zekka> your crypto is not particularly important if your super anonymous messages to known targets are sent from the same computer at the same times as your normal tweets
22:00:07 <Zekka> if I started sending tons of messages to ISIS from my personal machine, even if I used magic to guarantee my channel was cryptographically safe, it would probably be evident I was talking to ISIS
22:00:10 <int-e> Oh I know... https://xkcd.com/538/
22:00:18 <wob_jonas> it could also run windows 3.11, but it would be a bit hard to use unless you did some serious preparation, because normally you control windows through the monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and termbot doesn't give you access to those
22:00:28 <int-e> Zekka: that's what Tor is for.
22:00:30 <Zekka> probably the best strategy you can do is not communicate things you don't want found
22:00:35 <Zekka> int-e: Oh yeah, bring in anonymous third-parties
22:00:52 <Zekka> Obviously a hostile government could never run its own tor nodes and have them collude
22:00:57 <Zekka> and obviously this hasn't already happened
22:01:14 <int-e> (Tor, obviously, isn't perfect either, and a very lucrative target for secret services)
22:01:19 <wob_jonas> Zekka: why'd they pay for their own nodes? they just put malware on existing nodes.
22:01:51 <int-e> (But we know from the Snowden files that it must, actually, be quite good and be causing the NSA a lot of headaches.)
22:02:06 <Zekka> Didn't the guy who made bomb threats to get out of tests at Stanford or something get found out because he was the only dude on campus using Tor?
22:02:20 <Zekka> It probably wasn't Stanford, but it was some major school for smart people
22:02:53 <Zekka> I would be wary of crypto that makes it obvious I'm using crypto, because it means more people would want to snoop on me
22:04:09 <Zekka> If I had secret terrorist plans I would probably meet my secret terrorist buddies in person somewhere in the wilderness
22:04:52 <wob_jonas> Zekka: crypto that makes it obvious that you're using crypto? like connecting to freenode through ssl?
22:04:55 <int-e> . o O ( because that worked so well in 1984 )
22:04:55 <Zekka> maybe I'd develop secret terrorist plans I could carry out alone
22:05:09 <shachaf> Microsoft has secret terrorist plans?
22:05:18 <Zekka> shachaf: Don't tell the press!
22:05:18 <wob_jonas> Zekka: tell the logs all about them
22:05:25 <shachaf> I always thought Microsoft had secret communist plans.
22:05:32 <shachaf> They don't call it "Redmond" for nothing.
22:05:48 <Zekka> wob_jonas: I dunno, SSL's so commonplace that it's probably not seen as a red flag any more
22:06:05 <shachaf> And you would know all about red flags.
22:06:25 <wob_jonas> Zekka: so just use SSL for everything you want to encrypt?
22:06:51 <Zekka> I would not make the assumption that SSL is safe
22:07:02 <moon_> could you try connecting to port 5138? (telnet). im making sure a port works before i do something
22:07:24 <wob_jonas> Zekka: of course not. it's just a tool. you have to use it correctly.
22:07:46 <Zekka> That'sk inda what I'm getting at -- you can't blame a single party for "I used crypto and my secrets aren't safe"
22:07:59 <Zekka> if you actually want to be safe you shouldn't communicate your secrets
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22:19:25 <int-e> @tell oerjan GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey!
22:19:25 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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22:23:35 <shachaf> `? tanebventions: math
22:23:44 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms.
22:23:51 <shachaf> `? lambek's lemma
22:23:54 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
22:24:02 <shachaf> Taneb: Vaughan Pratt says "the ability to prove Lambek's lemma is a litmus test of whether you can think categorically"
22:24:12 <shachaf> Did you prove it or just invent it?
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22:29:17 <alercah> what is lambek's lemma?
22:29:46 -!- almightynsx1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:31:43 <alercah> what use is pointless topology?
22:32:01 <myname> it's pointless
22:32:32 -!- almightynsx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:33:19 <int-e> alercah: from what I just read, the fact that an initial algebra is an isomorphism
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22:34:40 <alercah> isomorphism of?
22:34:54 <alercah> oh wait
22:34:58 <shachaf> Its domain and codomain.
22:34:59 <alercah> what is an initial algebra?
22:35:27 <int-e> something categorical.
22:35:41 <alercah> presumably an initial object in some category?
22:35:48 <shachaf> Yes.
22:35:57 <alercah> which category?
22:36:06 <shachaf> the category of algebras hth
22:36:15 <int-e> the category of F-algebras for a functor F, which are maps F(A) -> A.
22:36:15 <alercah> how is it a morphism then?
22:36:21 <alercah> ahhh ty
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22:37:18 <int-e> So I can still prove Lambek's lemma. But I've seen it before and I don't like category theory.
22:37:53 <shachaf> What do you like?
22:38:28 <int-e> logic, algebra, combinatorics
22:41:50 <shachaf> Well, category theory is just algebra.
22:42:40 <alercah> ^
22:42:53 <alercah> int-e: what is A in the above?
22:42:57 <alercah> an object?
22:43:56 <int-e> alercah: in some underlying category, yes. I mean it's an argument to F which is a functor, so there's little choice in the matter.
22:44:12 <alercah> int-e: a functor maps morphisms too though
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22:45:59 <int-e> shachaf: I get basic category theory; it's even useful to some extent. But it's a very hard way of thinking for me, and I tend to interpret everything in Set to make sense out of it.
22:46:03 * int-e shrugs
22:46:48 <alercah> try poset categories
22:48:11 <wob_jonas> Categories in the sense of thinking of some of maths as talking about morphisms between objects is useful, but it doesn't require too much theory of course.
22:48:33 <wob_jonas> It does give some useful naming conventions that helps communicate with other mathematicians.
22:48:39 * gamemanj looks at the backlog. gamemanj scrolls up. gamemanj scrolls up further. gamemanj is an idiot. YGMP+SLP==???
22:49:04 <int-e> ?!
22:49:04 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: v @ ? .
22:49:13 <int-e> lambdabot: I most certainly did not.
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23:06:18 <wob_jonas> This happens a lot with algebra, not only category theory. There's also a negative effect though, in that when mathematicians explain something with algebraic language, and young mathematicianlings are listening, it can seem quite alien and hard to understand, even if the underlying thought is pretty simple and they could understand it.
23:06:23 <wob_jonas> But that's just a temporary effect.
23:06:51 <shachaf> Soon, the young mathematicianlings will turn into aliens.
23:07:16 <alercah> mathematicianling is an overly complicated word
23:07:37 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you a mathematicianling?
23:08:44 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
23:09:22 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah. eventually they grow and they themselves will talk nonsense like "Wait, that's too abstract. Let's take a specific example. Say, let A be a self-adjoint operator over a complex space."
23:09:54 <shachaf> roll your self-adjoint and join the fun
23:11:34 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:15:36 <shachaf> i,i "Take a positive integer N. No wait, N is too big; take a positive integer k."
23:15:51 <shachaf> I was looking for a different joke but I've forgotten it now.
23:17:37 <int-e> gone up in smoke.
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23:18:13 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, like that
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23:24:47 <moon_> I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help?
23:25:16 <moon_> cmd: ncat -l --keep-open --sh-exec "./df" 5318
23:25:36 -!- boily has joined.
23:26:08 <moon_> I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help?
23:26:10 <moon_> woops
23:26:12 <moon_> damnit
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23:31:26 -!- zvehk has changed nick to zgrep.
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23:36:14 <shachaf> this joke from mathoverflow is so good
23:36:17 <shachaf> I went to visit him while he was lying ill at the hospital. I had come in taxi cab number 14 and remarked that it was a rather dull number. "No" he replied, "it is a very interesting number. It's the smallest number expressible as the product of 7 and 2 in two different ways."
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23:45:01 * boily mathwackematics shachaf
23:45:05 <boily> hellørjan!
23:45:11 <boily> `relcome byteflame
23:45:18 <HackEgo> byteflame: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:49:28 <oerjan> helloily!
23:50:04 <boily> byerjan!
23:50:06 <boily> (poutine time!)
23:50:08 <oerjan> @messages-foul
23:50:08 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 30m 43s ago: GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey!
23:50:13 <oerjan> int-e: wat?
23:50:22 <boily> bwah ah ah!
23:50:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SUGAR CHICKEN).
23:50:50 <oerjan> hey, he left, i was going to make an awful pun :(
23:54:41 <oerjan> @tell int-e sadly, i've played very few computer games hth
23:54:41 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:54:50 <shachaf> oerjan: which ones twh
23:55:08 <oerjan> well, there's tetris...
23:56:46 <oerjan> civilization, although i usually chickened out soon after the enemies started appearing.
23:57:52 <oerjan> a number of small mindless games and abstract puzzle games.
23:58:48 <oerjan> many of which i've forgot.
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