00:01:25 Hm, maybe we should start storing Ozone that we can fire into the atmosphere when needed 00:05:35 Taneb: sure, it already includes http://oeis.org/A107357 and http://oeis.org/A053169 00:06:14 int-e: Yes, that's the original phrasing of the puzzle. 00:06:30 int-e: But it turns out that Wikipedia is wrong, and it says "universality" instead of "non-universality". 00:07:00 I.e. universality is coNP-complete 00:09:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:10:14 -!- augur has joined. 00:11:39 shachaf: yes, I saw that clarification yesterday, thanks! 00:13:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:13:11 -!- augur has joined. 00:23:07 -!- Xnuk has joined. 00:33:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:34:07 How do you pronounce ///? http://esolangs.org/wiki//// 00:34:20 "slashes" 00:36:41 oerjan: thanks 00:36:54 you're welcome 00:37:02 `relcome Xnuk 00:37:19 ​Xnuk: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 00:40:32 -!- byteflame has joined. 00:49:37 -!- augur has joined. 00:49:45 Apparently, Goonies never say "die" 00:49:58 They must have a hard time playing DnD with English majors 00:51:10 I don't think English majors are particularly pedantic. 00:51:23 But surely they have trouble playing in German. 00:51:52 I learned that fact from The Onion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAa8Rf_a_Mo 00:54:38 de:die is not a homophone of en:die hth 00:55:41 Right. 00:55:49 And you think it's the latter than they never say? 00:56:05 Given that they speak English and not German, the former seems more likely. 00:56:05 i dunno, i have no idea what goonies are. 00:56:21 @google goonies 00:56:23 http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089218/ 00:56:23 Title: The Goonies (1985) - IMDb 00:57:23 wow. this travel insurance actually has a price per day that isn't an integer number of HUF. you rarely see that nowadays. 00:57:53 most things are rounded to integer HUF, except for very cheap things like per minute prices of mobile phone calls. 00:59:18 HUF is what came before HUG? 00:59:40 whoa, 1 HUF < 0.01 USD 01:00:02 Even 0.01 USD is too fine-grained for most things. 01:01:13 It's not that uncommon for currencies to be similarly overly-fine-grained though. 01:01:44 shachaf: sure, which is why the smallest cash coin is 5 HUF, and most bank transactions and similar are restricted to multiples of 1 HUF, but prices can still be fine grained even though they're usually multiples of 1 HUF for cheap things and multiples of 10 HUF for expensive things. 01:01:50 1 KRW < 0.001 USD, for example. 01:02:11 How fine-grained should stock prices be? 01:02:16 You can have prices to high resolution and round for the whole transaction. 01:03:14 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:03:19 Though, the KRW no longer has 1 KRW coins in circulation... 01:03:20 Until 2001, US stock prices were measured in sixteenths of a dollar. 01:03:26 Now they're measured in cents. 01:03:57 I mean the finest granularity. 01:04:25 It's called the tick size, and there are all sorts of trade-offs for deciding what it should be. 01:04:35 It seems silly to have the same tick size for expensive stocks and cheap stocks, though. 01:05:16 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:07:34 In particular, the price of gas (petrol) for cars is shown per liters, and is usually shown as a multiple of 0.001 or 0.01 HUF. The price of household water and sewage in this location is 469.06 HUF per cubic meter. 01:17:59 -!- boily has joined. 01:19:05 -!- augur has joined. 01:20:45 ahoily 01:29:30 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:36:32 bohily 01:37:12 hppavellon[1]! 01:37:16 hellørjan! 01:38:17 I declare the winner of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njos57IJf-0 [Steve Jobs vs Bill Gates. Epic Rap Battles of History Season 2.] to be Richard Stallman 01:55:21 -!- augur has joined. 01:56:19 -!- byteflame has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:00:32 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 02:12:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 02:12:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:12:55 -!- jaboja has joined. 02:23:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:27:34 -!- augur has joined. 02:28:23 http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/bizarre-proof-to-torment-mathematicians-for-years-to-come/ 02:28:27 there was a greater mummy behind khufu... holy fungot I didn't see it... 02:28:28 boily: next it unveiled the latest to benefit of any party other than ena also sold more to do the right thing on the sidelines for any period. if you have not had any more. 02:28:31 So, almost like the proof is bad code? 02:28:49 fungot: I'm still alive! 02:28:50 boily: for complete information on the first is the pulmonary injury by capacity and fuel to the rate to a policy what policy: " section vii of the bond, the treasurer of each company 02:33:26 okay, not alive. got berserk and petrified at the same time. 02:41:47 -!- boily has quit (Quit: APPEARANCE CHICKEN). 02:59:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:23:40 Sgeo: Or code written in a programming language that nobody understands except Mochizuki 03:24:13 Sgeo: I think it would be pretty hilarious if this was all an elaborate troll 03:32:37 -!- augur has joined. 03:34:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 03:40:49 there are computer proofs written in languages that nobody else understands 03:41:17 the proofs work when you check them, but no one knows why 04:01:39 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:14:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:31:06 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:34:23 -!- augur has joined. 04:37:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:38:56 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:49:09 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:04:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:23:14 `? password 05:23:34 The password of the month is late. 05:30:11 it's too easy for alt+5 to slip and become alt+f4==instakill app <-- that's pretty much how my hydra died, except with fn instead of alt. 05:30:49 oerjan: well, killing the hydra was the goal, right? 05:30:54 and f5 instead of 5, probably. 05:31:00 quintopia: not quite that way. 05:31:24 oerjan: picky. just be happy the goal was accomplished 05:31:39 OKANEVER 05:40:14 oerjan: You cracking stuff? 05:40:54 only GHC hth 05:43:51 @massages-lout 05:43:51 You don't have any messages 05:44:05 @massages-lout 05:44:05 You don't have any messages 05:44:10 huh. 05:44:23 ...maybe there was a ^O. 05:51:02 In my Linux system though, ALT+F4 has no special use. (When in text mode, it switches to screen 4, but in X you need CTRL+ALT+F4 to switch to screen 4.) (But I think the default window manager and desktop environment for Ubuntu does use ALT+F4 and some other stuff similar to Windows to make it easier for Windows users, but I have uninstalled those things.) 05:57:15 -!- Kaynato has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:33:47 -!- byteflame has joined. 06:56:10 It is a bad idea to watch love live and fly an airplane at the same time 06:56:37 i crashed into a mountain 07:03:34 -!- atehwa has joined. 07:39:31 -!- moon_ has joined. 07:39:34 Moo 07:55:15 ooom 07:57:51 -!- augur has joined. 07:58:12 -!- byteflame has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:03:11 Oh crap it happened 08:04:35 I was watching anime and --oh shit I've actually been to that exact place in tokyo where the character's standing! 08:04:51 shachaf: okay, in the end I think membership in coNP is easier than coNP-hardness. (I don't know an NP-complete problem that embeds naturally) 08:05:13 really weird feeling of deja vu 08:06:20 what would you call deja vu induced by a cartoon 08:07:09 -!- farrioth has joined. 08:08:17 "deja toon" 08:09:59 int-e: I found an article that has a reduction from 3SAT 08:10:56 does it work for arbitrary CNFs or is the size of clauses actually used? 08:11:02 whoever drew this must have been sketching from the balcony of the McDonalds that overlooks Shinjuku 08:12:03 I think it'd work for arbitrary CNFs? 08:12:52 But I'm typing on my phone at the train station. Will probably be able to say more later. 08:13:49 shachaf: then it may be doing a similar thing to what I've dreamed up. 08:13:50 Anyway the coNP argument is probably something like "raise the adjacency matrix to the nth power" 08:14:03 and yes, it is 08:17:33 Hmm, the current Schlock Mercenary story arc would fit perfectly under "Force Multiplication". Too bad that book title is already taken within the series :P 08:18:10 Im trying to run a game in a way that people can play it all together through telnet. How should i do this? Im thinking bash 08:19:41 isn't that what MUDs are for. 08:20:24 Im trying to hae fun by haveing a bunch of people play a single instance of dwarf fortress over telnet 08:21:53 Twitch plays Dwarf Fortress? 08:22:03 * oerjan points at the non-present ais523 08:22:09 And good luck getting that going over telnet... 08:22:22 Putty then 08:22:24 ? 08:23:01 could screen or tmux work that way? 08:23:06 Dwarf Fortress is a graphical program (even when not using graphical tiles). 08:23:09 no 08:23:16 Linux has text mode 08:23:22 S does mac 08:23:41 Really? 08:23:44 mhm 08:23:57 Since what version? 08:24:02 Change the graphics setting from 2D to TEXT 08:24:11 dunno, long while 08:24:56 You're not mistaking the normal (non-tiles) mode for an actual console-based mode? 08:25:04 nope 08:25:10 i've used it over ssh 08:25:55 and i helped develop a discord bot that has a selfupdating (message ediT) emulated terminal, it could display df too 08:26:08 the bot hasent been on for a while 08:26:11 That is news to me, then. 08:26:15 lol 08:26:40 well, how would i broker it using bash, i have ncat (that comes with nmap) if that helps 08:28:37 Hmm, documentation says, "primitive ncurses output". You are correct. 08:29:10 You'd probably want to use whatever it is that nethack@alt.org uses, let me see what it's called. 08:29:25 no, single game instance 08:29:33 im nit running a hoard of df lo, 08:29:36 Although you want everyone controlling one instance, right, not just providing it as a service? 08:29:41 mhm 08:29:51 I'd just use screen, then. 08:30:42 And what would i do with the screen? I need to know how to broker it 08:31:03 I'm not really sure what you mean by broker here. 08:31:31 Be a server, transmit the games data to the users and give the game their input 08:32:26 So you're just connecting multiple terminal endpoints to the same program and sending that all the input from all the terminals? 08:32:52 Mhm lol 08:33:30 -!- impomatic_ has joined. 08:35:37 Just have everyone connect to the same screen session, I suppose. 08:36:37 But i dont know how i should do that in bash, or is there something about screens i dont know 08:36:59 I don't think you need to involve bash at all. 08:37:44 What should i use? Node.js and C++ are my main kanguages, am i just looking at this wrong? 08:38:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 08:38:35 I'm not sure what part of it you feel requires any programming. 08:39:04 Hi hppavilion[1] . 08:39:17 Helloon 08:41:26 You know a good way to allow multiple people to telnet to a system and use one instance of a prgram, in this case dwaf fortress? 08:42:13 What was wrong with my suggestion? :/ 08:42:59 I really just dont get how im going to USE the screen. 08:43:16 he means "screen", the program. 08:43:39 I know, i dont know what to do with it afterwrds 08:44:07 So people log in and then all connect to the same screen session. Their input is all sent to whatever's running in it, and they all see the output of whatever's running in it. 08:44:22 Problem: open server 08:44:53 So you run Dwarf Fortress inside screen, then people log in, and attach to that screen session. 08:45:09 I'd personally do it over ssh, but you could use telnet if you wanted to. 08:45:37 Err, but then i have to give them access to the system, i only want them to have dwarf fortress 08:45:40 -!- Jafet has joined. 08:47:01 They're always going to need to log in to the system, you just need to stop them from running anything other than screen or Dwarf Fortress. 08:47:20 How to stop screen from being able to execute arbitrary commands is a good question, though. 08:49:19 Thought so, i just want to do something with the output, send it to the users, and get input 08:52:34 Unbinding C-a : should be sufficient, I think. 08:52:55 But you'll probably want to unbind some other stuff too so users don't try and do annoying stuff. 08:54:01 I personally think that adding screen is a bit of a waste, i dont see where its needes in the input => program => output => repeat loop 08:57:01 It effectively virtualizes a terminal and allows multiple endpoints to be connected to it. 08:57:18 In other words, it lets people log in on multiple terminals and see the same thing. 08:58:28 (And send input to it.) 09:01:41 last week i was testing stuff and added debug code that dumped a structure to /tmp/izdump 09:01:50 it turns out that shit is now packaged and shipped -_- 09:02:00 Gg 09:02:15 It looks like you can actually use screen's builtin acl support to stop users from executing commands. 09:03:18 Hmm.. damn a example script eould help lol, but ok, im following 09:03:35 google isn't providing solutions for "unship code" 09:03:43 Lol 09:08:30 I'll have a go at one, hold on. 09:08:59 did it brick the devices? no -> push update to the previous release. yes -> cash in your stock in the company and move far away 09:09:38 int-e: it's not my fault! that wasn't supposed to end up in prod 09:09:42 i don't wanna move away 09:09:59 My "f" finger hurts. I wonder if I should hold a pen between that finger and the left thumb to make sure I'm not typing with it, because typing just makes it hurt more. 09:10:31 -!- baordog has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 09:11:25 you could remap f to capslock (and r and v, for good measure.) 09:12:01 moon_: To be honest I think this will do it: 09:12:01 escape '' 09:12:02 bind ^d detach 09:13:56 Unless ^d does something in Dwarf Fortress; I can't remember. 09:23:33 Dwarf fortress overrides ^d 09:25:28 Pick some other keystroke it doesn't use, then (if there are any :p). 09:25:51 You could use a prefix like screen normally does, it would make the config longer is all. 09:36:05 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 09:36:12 ...why the hell does the H○ scale convert real-world feet to scale-world millimeters? 09:38:49 Because 16.5 mm is a nice value for rail spacing? 09:39:02 farrioth: But is it really? 09:39:18 Personally, I think all railroad models should be in 87:1 09:39:21 `` echo open shell? Hopefully no # moon_ 09:39:31 open shell? Hopefully no 09:40:03 Ik, but thats sandboxed, and so is shbot, i didnt know what you used 09:40:12 hppavilion[1]: 87:1 not 1:87? :p 09:40:18 shbot has a much stricter sandbox 09:40:24 farrioth: Yes. 09:40:36 farrioth: Your model has to be larger than the original. 09:42:25 I think a good xkcdsw would be http://xkcd.com/1294/, but "telescope" becomes "dildo" 09:44:04 railroad models should be 1:1 09:48:25 myname: All railroad models should be made in 1:89+41i 09:49:11 Lol. 09:50:58 hppavilion[1]: i am okay with that 09:51:31 Or perhaps model train layouts should be logarithmic? 09:52:48 1:i*pi 09:52:58 You know what, just plain out how do you stream a program to multiple users using telnet? 09:54:39 Interestingly, I was introduced to Never Gonna Give You Up by anything other than 4chan 09:55:30 that's easy if you don't 4chan 10:00:07 moon_: Normally you don't need to do such a thing, since for most services you'd fork per connection. 10:00:39 In fact, I can't really think of a use case apart for something like this or nethack@alt.org, etc. 10:00:49 I'd be interested if there are, thoguh. 10:00:54 *though 10:01:09 Im good now 10:05:31 myname: Yeah, but the first time I heard it was in the movie "Miracle in Toyworld" or something like that 10:05:50 So it's permanently associated with that 10:06:31 If HO is supposed to be H0, is there an H1? 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15:42:48 eh. 15:44:55 æ ø å you ain't got the æ ø å 15:48:48 nor the äöü 15:49:41 nor аиоуэ 15:49:59 (greek anyone?) 16:17:15 `olist 1046 16:17:44 olist 1046: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 16:19:26 -!- Kaynato has joined. 16:33:00 * ybden appreciates `? chicken 16:45:24 -!- Zekka has joined. 16:47:39 -!- Reece` has joined. 16:48:06 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:54:13 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 16:56:20 -!- `^_^v has joined. 17:35:35 -!- Cale has joined. 17:36:48 -!- MoALTz has joined. 17:37:43 -!- Zekka has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:38:18 -!- Zekka has joined. 18:57:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:20:35 -!- bauen1 has joined. 19:33:35 -!- jaboja has joined. 19:36:27 -!- augur has joined. 19:39:42 -!- bauen1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:28 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:44:02 -!- augur has joined. 19:58:18 -!- almightynsx1 has joined. 19:58:54 -!- almightynsx has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:00:30 -!- almightynsx has joined. 20:02:15 -!- yurichev has joined. 20:02:33 -!- almightynsx1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:04:52 -!- almightynsx has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:07:06 -!- almightynsx has joined. 20:20:27 @metar katl 20:20:27 KATL 011911Z 24006KT 10SM -RA FEW020 SCT075 BKN100 BKN250 28/24 A3008 RMK AO2 RAB02 TSE11 TS MOV SE CB DSNT NE & DSNT S-SW-W TCU DSNT N-NE & DSNT SW SHRA DSNT S-SW-W P0000 T02830239 20:20:29 -!- almightynsx has quit (Read error: Network is unreachable). 20:20:32 not bad 20:22:12 -!- almightynsx has joined. 20:36:25 @metar LIPZ 20:36:26 LIPZ 011920Z 03009KT CAVOK 24/15 Q1015 NOSIG 20:37:15 Going there on Wednesday 20:38:42 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:40:58 and checking @metar now helps? 20:41:51 And saying "and checking @metar now helps?" helps? 20:43:15 yes 20:48:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:48:34 izabera, I have a friend near there right now 20:48:40 Also I can't actually read meta 20:48:40 r 20:48:47 It just makes me feel like I'm doing something 20:48:50 No one can read METAR. 20:49:15 And the friend is closer to LIPB anyway 20:49:27 @metar LIPB 20:49:28 LIPB 011850Z VRB02KT 9999 SCT090 24/14 Q1015 20:49:44 Taneb: All you need to do is look at the two numbers separated by a / 20:49:55 The first one is temperature. 20:50:04 That's all I know about METAR. 20:50:22 `? metar 20:50:29 the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport 20:50:32 -!- almightynsx has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:50:36 metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather. 20:50:41 the second number is apparently the dew point 20:50:56 I knew that. 20:51:00 the second number is the avg weight of the pilots in the airport, also called the dew point 20:51:02 But I didn't know what dew point was. 20:51:22 the dew point is apparently the point at which you get dew 20:51:52 `slwd tanebvention//s# w# metar, w# 20:51:59 wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex. 20:52:53 Taneb, are you sure you'd never invent a genetic algorithm with sexual reproduction? 20:53:00 Wait, Taneb invented Tanebventions? 20:53:08 Phantom_Hoover, fairly 20:53:28 With modern technology, sex is completely unnecessary for algorithms, you see 20:53:33 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds). 20:53:58 Although I've not a clue about genetic programming 20:54:03 shachaf, well obviously, who else would invent them 20:54:09 (doing a module on it next term) 20:54:17 they'd be izaberaventions or whatever in that case 20:54:31 izabera, have you been inventing tanebventions 20:54:41 not yet 20:54:45 Phantom_Hoover, there you go 20:55:29 i was planning to 20:55:35 -!- jaboja has joined. 20:55:37 but it takes a while 20:55:40 it's a long project 20:55:53 Not really. 20:56:00 You just put the tanebvention in the wisdom entry. 20:56:05 Taneb is the one who has to do the hard work. 20:56:22 that's the lazy way 20:56:59 shachaf, what izabera is planning is to invent something and convince me and everyone else that I was the one who invented it 20:57:19 D-modules were the first Tanebvention, right? 20:57:29 something something three headed dildos ? 20:57:53 shachaf, I believe so 20:58:03 I think that falls outside the purview of Tanebventions. 20:58:42 izabera, I'm no expert but I think three headed dildos involve sex 20:59:35 it's your invention 20:59:42 make something up with it 20:59:55 I think Taneb would rather just uninvent it. 21:00:03 too late 21:00:12 patent pending 21:00:24 Taneb never invented it in the first place. 21:00:33 whoa easy there 21:00:33 `? taneb 21:00:35 Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions) 21:01:02 Can someone who knows the HackEgo magic change that eight to a nine please 21:02:03 Taneb: The magic is this: `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine# 21:02:27 `swld taneb//s#eight#nine# 21:02:28 ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swld: not found 21:02:31 ARE YOU SURE 21:02:43 YES HTH 21:02:51 but you gotta type it correctly 21:02:51 `? taneb 21:02:54 Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of eight genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions) 21:03:01 `slwd taneb//s#eight#nine# 21:03:04 wisdom/taneb//Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions) 21:03:16 shachaf, I haven't invented typing things correctly yet tht 21:03:27 `? tht 21:03:29 tht? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 21:03:44 It's hth but I haven't invented typing things correctly 21:04:08 -!- dleled has joined. 21:05:48 yet 21:08:26 -!- dleled has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:12:49 -!- yurichev has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:13:51 -!- moon_ has joined. 21:14:25 Hi 21:18:59 mhelloon! 21:20:54 -!- augur has joined. 21:26:18 -!- miketo has joined. 21:36:10 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:39:42 -!- moon_ has joined. 21:40:01 I've started playing around in MSDOS 6.22 21:40:32 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:40:51 the best OS ever to come out of the house of Microsoft 21:41:10 (I hope my University OS professor doesn't read this ;-) ) 21:41:56 lol what does he prefer win10? 21:41:57 -!- augur has joined. 21:42:58 -!- almightynsx has joined. 21:43:11 Probably not. 21:43:55 -!- atrapado has joined. 21:44:00 But DOS offers almost none of the defining features of an OS, most notably it does not offer any multitasking or isolation of multiple processes or access control. 21:44:18 I prefer Windows 10 to MS-DOS 6.22 21:44:40 That MS botnet is scary. 21:45:49 (I honestly believe that this term is 100% accurate in this context: It is software that phones home automatically and updates itself with whatever code its masters provide, automatically.) 21:46:22 Of course Android isn't much different. 21:46:50 Most Linux distros on the other hand, are... though perhaps not different enough to matter in practice. 21:49:22 What about web software? 21:49:37 All software is becoming web software. 21:50:00 You mean SaaS? 21:50:13 "web software" is not a meaningful term to me. 21:50:59 hmm... Hey, b_jonas, you here? 21:51:15 I mean software written in JavaScritp and delivered to a web browser. 21:51:26 horrible. 21:51:35 Well, being written in JavaScript isn't even that important. 21:51:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:52:08 But it kind of depends on how good the sandboxing is. 21:52:17 And what you do with it... 21:52:31 ...a web online game I have no trouble with. 21:53:05 ...a web office program that may cease existing tomorrow... that's an entirely different matter. 21:53:14 but not really part of the botnet problem in my view 21:53:18 more the opposite 21:53:24 (dual, if you like) 21:53:33 It has the same auto-update issue. 21:53:37 int-e: W10 is a botnet under those terms imho, it's just hypothetically a desirable one 21:53:46 Every time you start up the software, you fetch a brand new copy from the web server. 21:53:48 shachaf: yes it does, hence the sandboxing 21:54:05 OK, so run Windows 10 in a VM, I guess? 21:54:21 shachaf: which allows me to think of it as an extension of *THEIR* server using some of my own computing resources 21:54:39 there is lots of software that updates the same way -- the reason a botnet is evil is because it does evil things with your computer resources 21:54:49 I'm sure Microsoft would like for you to think of Windows the same way. 21:55:15 yes, Win 10 in a VM is an option... well... once we find a secure hypervisor. :P 21:55:16 (disclaimer: MS employee here) 21:55:36 Zekka: the technology is neutral. 21:55:58 FWIW I'm not qualified to assess if W10 is doing evil -- I have friends who worked on it who said the parts they worked on did not appear to be doing evil 21:56:02 and from a technological perspective there's not enough of a difference that it matters to me. 21:56:18 it's possible, even likely that there are parts he didn't work on that are evil 21:56:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:57:46 (and this whole way we're doing software... as indicated above this is not limited to MS or even the commerical world... has ramification that I really don't want to think about. For example, for cryptography. Your crypto software may be secure now, but it can be backdoored without notice.) 21:58:07 Oh man. I'll indeed so have to buy a new computer in autumn. I love this one and it's served it well, it will probably retire with full honors, but it's just SLOW. 21:58:20 FWIW I think you should never assume your data is safe because of crypto 21:58:23 Hmm, computer. 21:58:34 Will MS still allow me to install my Win 7 copy on another machine? 21:58:40 you can shake your fist at companies like microsoft because we've probably backdoored our crypto implementations in one place or another 21:59:06 But afaik usually it's humans following bad security precautions that compromise security situations 21:59:06 wob_jonas: Install Windows 3.11 and MS-DOS 6.22 21:59:16 Or will that be the point where I give up on Windows altogether and suffer through the lmited supply of games that work on Linux? 21:59:24 shachaf: I have them in an emulator 21:59:34 shachaf: have you seen termbot? that runs ms-dos 6.22 21:59:34 your crypto is not particularly important if your super anonymous messages to known targets are sent from the same computer at the same times as your normal tweets 22:00:07 if I started sending tons of messages to ISIS from my personal machine, even if I used magic to guarantee my channel was cryptographically safe, it would probably be evident I was talking to ISIS 22:00:10 Oh I know... https://xkcd.com/538/ 22:00:18 it could also run windows 3.11, but it would be a bit hard to use unless you did some serious preparation, because normally you control windows through the monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and termbot doesn't give you access to those 22:00:28 Zekka: that's what Tor is for. 22:00:30 probably the best strategy you can do is not communicate things you don't want found 22:00:35 int-e: Oh yeah, bring in anonymous third-parties 22:00:52 Obviously a hostile government could never run its own tor nodes and have them collude 22:00:57 and obviously this hasn't already happened 22:01:14 (Tor, obviously, isn't perfect either, and a very lucrative target for secret services) 22:01:19 Zekka: why'd they pay for their own nodes? they just put malware on existing nodes. 22:01:51 (But we know from the Snowden files that it must, actually, be quite good and be causing the NSA a lot of headaches.) 22:02:06 Didn't the guy who made bomb threats to get out of tests at Stanford or something get found out because he was the only dude on campus using Tor? 22:02:20 It probably wasn't Stanford, but it was some major school for smart people 22:02:53 I would be wary of crypto that makes it obvious I'm using crypto, because it means more people would want to snoop on me 22:04:09 If I had secret terrorist plans I would probably meet my secret terrorist buddies in person somewhere in the wilderness 22:04:52 Zekka: crypto that makes it obvious that you're using crypto? like connecting to freenode through ssl? 22:04:55 . o O ( because that worked so well in 1984 ) 22:04:55 maybe I'd develop secret terrorist plans I could carry out alone 22:05:09 Microsoft has secret terrorist plans? 22:05:18 shachaf: Don't tell the press! 22:05:18 Zekka: tell the logs all about them 22:05:25 I always thought Microsoft had secret communist plans. 22:05:32 They don't call it "Redmond" for nothing. 22:05:48 wob_jonas: I dunno, SSL's so commonplace that it's probably not seen as a red flag any more 22:06:05 And you would know all about red flags. 22:06:25 Zekka: so just use SSL for everything you want to encrypt? 22:06:51 I would not make the assumption that SSL is safe 22:07:02 could you try connecting to 76.1.72.128 port 5138? (telnet). im making sure a port works before i do something 22:07:24 Zekka: of course not. it's just a tool. you have to use it correctly. 22:07:46 That'sk inda what I'm getting at -- you can't blame a single party for "I used crypto and my secrets aren't safe" 22:07:59 if you actually want to be safe you shouldn't communicate your secrets 22:09:15 -!- almightynsx1 has joined. 22:09:33 -!- almightynsx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:18:59 -!- _miketo has joined. 22:19:25 @tell oerjan GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey! 22:19:25 Consider it noted. 22:21:40 -!- miketo has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:21:48 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:23:35 `? tanebventions: math 22:23:44 Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, the Hodge star operator, pointless topology, and histograms. 22:23:51 `? lambek's lemma 22:23:54 Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses. 22:24:02 Taneb: Vaughan Pratt says "the ability to prove Lambek's lemma is a litmus test of whether you can think categorically" 22:24:12 Did you prove it or just invent it? 22:28:24 -!- almightynsx has joined. 22:29:17 what is lambek's lemma? 22:29:46 -!- almightynsx1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:31:43 what use is pointless topology? 22:32:01 it's pointless 22:32:32 -!- almightynsx has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:33:19 alercah: from what I just read, the fact that an initial algebra is an isomorphism 22:34:24 -!- byteflame has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:34:40 isomorphism of? 22:34:54 oh wait 22:34:58 Its domain and codomain. 22:34:59 what is an initial algebra? 22:35:27 something categorical. 22:35:41 presumably an initial object in some category? 22:35:48 Yes. 22:35:57 which category? 22:36:06 the category of algebras hth 22:36:15 the category of F-algebras for a functor F, which are maps F(A) -> A. 22:36:15 how is it a morphism then? 22:36:21 ahhh ty 22:37:00 -!- augur has joined. 22:37:06 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:37:16 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:37:18 So I can still prove Lambek's lemma. But I've seen it before and I don't like category theory. 22:37:53 What do you like? 22:38:28 logic, algebra, combinatorics 22:41:50 Well, category theory is just algebra. 22:42:40 ^ 22:42:53 int-e: what is A in the above? 22:42:57 an object? 22:43:56 alercah: in some underlying category, yes. I mean it's an argument to F which is a functor, so there's little choice in the matter. 22:44:12 int-e: a functor maps morphisms too though 22:44:16 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:45:59 shachaf: I get basic category theory; it's even useful to some extent. But it's a very hard way of thinking for me, and I tend to interpret everything in Set to make sense out of it. 22:46:03 * int-e shrugs 22:46:48 try poset categories 22:48:11 Categories in the sense of thinking of some of maths as talking about morphisms between objects is useful, but it doesn't require too much theory of course. 22:48:33 It does give some useful naming conventions that helps communicate with other mathematicians. 22:48:39 * gamemanj looks at the backlog. gamemanj scrolls up. gamemanj scrolls up further. gamemanj is an idiot. YGMP+SLP==??? 22:49:04 ?! 22:49:04 Maybe you meant: v @ ? . 22:49:13 lambdabot: I most certainly did not. 22:58:12 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:59:02 -!- moon_ has joined. 22:59:25 -!- almightynsx has joined. 23:02:00 -!- centrinia has joined. 23:03:01 -!- powerOfTwo has joined. 23:03:59 -!- powerOfTwo has quit (Client Quit). 23:04:26 -!- almightynsx1 has joined. 23:05:15 -!- almightynsx has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:06:18 This happens a lot with algebra, not only category theory. There's also a negative effect though, in that when mathematicians explain something with algebraic language, and young mathematicianlings are listening, it can seem quite alien and hard to understand, even if the underlying thought is pretty simple and they could understand it. 23:06:23 But that's just a temporary effect. 23:06:51 Soon, the young mathematicianlings will turn into aliens. 23:07:16 mathematicianling is an overly complicated word 23:07:37 Taneb: Are you a mathematicianling? 23:08:44 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:09:22 shachaf: yeah. eventually they grow and they themselves will talk nonsense like "Wait, that's too abstract. Let's take a specific example. Say, let A be a self-adjoint operator over a complex space." 23:09:54 roll your self-adjoint and join the fun 23:11:34 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:15:36 i,i "Take a positive integer N. No wait, N is too big; take a positive integer k." 23:15:51 I was looking for a different joke but I've forgotten it now. 23:17:37 gone up in smoke. 23:18:07 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:18:13 shachaf: yes, like that 23:20:24 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:24:47 I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help? 23:25:16 cmd: ncat -l --keep-open --sh-exec "./df" 5318 23:25:36 -!- boily has joined. 23:26:08 I managed to make a watchable game of Dwarf Fortress, but, it doesnt like the arrow keys and the escape key etc etc. any help? 23:26:10 woops 23:26:12 damnit 23:29:49 -!- zgrep has changed nick to zvehk. 23:31:26 -!- zvehk has changed nick to zgrep. 23:34:14 -!- Zekka has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:36:14 this joke from mathoverflow is so good 23:36:17 I went to visit him while he was lying ill at the hospital. I had come in taxi cab number 14 and remarked that it was a rather dull number. "No" he replied, "it is a very interesting number. It's the smallest number expressible as the product of 7 and 2 in two different ways." 23:39:01 -!- byteflame has joined. 23:41:54 -!- Zekka has joined. 23:43:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:45:01 * boily mathwackematics shachaf 23:45:05 hellørjan! 23:45:11 `relcome byteflame 23:45:18 ​byteflame: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 23:49:28 helloily! 23:50:04 byerjan! 23:50:06 (poutine time!) 23:50:08 @messages-foul 23:50:08 int-e said 1h 30m 43s ago: GG: ... LOOK! a three-headed monkey! 23:50:13 int-e: wat? 23:50:22 bwah ah ah! 23:50:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SUGAR CHICKEN). 23:50:50 hey, he left, i was going to make an awful pun :( 23:54:41 @tell int-e sadly, i've played very few computer games hth 23:54:41 Consider it noted. 23:54:50 oerjan: which ones twh 23:55:08 well, there's tetris... 23:56:46 civilization, although i usually chickened out soon after the enemies started appearing. 23:57:52 a number of small mindless games and abstract puzzle games. 23:58:48 many of which i've forgot.