< 1470269321 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also type "view-source:" in front of the URL to force it to display in the browser (at least this works for Firefox and other Mozilla-based browsers). < 1470269410 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does it work in Mozilla Navigator? < 1470269560 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, do you play Dominion? < 1470269572 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hardly. < 1470269581 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also ais523 isn't here, I wanted to tell him thanks for being a good historian < 1470269605 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or... whatever you call it when someone meticulously documents stuff for the benefit of future historians < 1470269638 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :A HistoryProvider. < 1470269665 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've played Dominion once at a birthday party. If that's referring to the card game. < 1470269671 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1470269688 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learned the rules and might try playing through the tutorial tonight < 1470269706 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's evenly matched like Prismata but has RNG < 1470269753 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then let's play Prismata. < 1470269763 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie can play too. < 1470269806 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks, but no-thanks. Sounds too reasonable a thing to do. < 1470269823 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi fizzie < 1470269904 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is reading http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg07043.html < 1470270190 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470270520 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: chronicler? < 1470270552 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, that was an office in Agora that I apparently held but don't remember holding < 1470270657 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION stealthily takes a DNA sample of MoonyThe"Human" < 1470270718 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, too busy messing with DF raws < 1470270744 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :making cats highly volatile < 1470270749 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just for fun < 1470270810 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts the sample into the analyzer < 1470270881 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470270885 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders why the analyzer ran away screaming < 1470270917 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470270919 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1470270939 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :MoonyTheHuman: you aren't human. you're a moon hth < 1470270953 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily, like Prozac the Bear? < 1470270992 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's no moon! < 1470270993 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno what i am, have a list of usernames: MoonyTheHuman, qbitn, MoonyTheDwarf, moon, moon_, moon__, moon___, moonheart08 < 1470271015 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that qbitn is new, i wanted something original :P < 1470271064 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm Prozac the Bear, that was a long time ago. i don't even remember clearly what he was. < 1470271081 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh qbitn was you? < 1470271095 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@2a00:f41:3859:70f0:de85:deff:fe55:967a QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1470271114 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just added [DAMBLOCK:1] to cats < 1470271129 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :should i make it higher < 1470271203 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470271218 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, Triangle and Robert character < 1470271258 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo__: i know that. i just don't remember how far he was from being a bear. probably a lot, given the comic. < 1470271279 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :He was a Prozac < 1470271327 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? esoteric < 1470271331 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet. < 1470271335 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? #esoteric < 1470271336 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#esoteric is the only channel that doesn't exist. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. < 1470271382 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd #esoteric//s-doesn't exist-exists- < 1470271386 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. < 1470271417 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd #esoteric/s/about/a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about/ < 1470271419 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :usage: sled file//script < 1470271430 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd #esoteric//s/about/a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about/ < 1470271434 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fwiled < 1470271434 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. < 1470271460 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` rgrep burrito wisdom < 1470271476 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/#esoteric:#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperburrito about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. < 1470271481 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I protest. < 1470271496 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd #esoteric//s#burrito#whatever# < 1470271498 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperwhatever about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. < 1470271504 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just about anything is an improvement over burrito jokes. < 1470271552 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but the original has taco ;_; < 1470271575 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Original? < 1470271579 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd #esoteric//s#whatever#enchilada# < 1470271582 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/#esoteric//#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. May contain crude drawings of nuts. < 1470271582 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :7-tacodimensional? < 1470271595 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: triangle and robert's world is a 4-dimension hypertaco hth < 1470272096 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470272688 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470273617 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[BODY:QUADRUPED_NECK:2EYES:4EARS:8NOSE:16LUNGS:32HEART:64GUTS:128ORGANS:256THROAT:512NECK:1024SPINE:2048BRAIN] << i seriously regret putting this on cats < 1470274180 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470274311 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uhm. are they the number of body parts, or some other random stats? < 1470274705 0 :byteflame!~byteflame@50.25.160.41 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470275063 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :number of parts < 1470275073 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-; < 1470275079 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i thought it was something else < 1470275130 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :holy fungot may you have mercy on us all... < 1470275130 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: to find. initiates my bad reaction of companies that the attached and let it go with maureen's december 22nd. < 1470275153 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION will try to not have nightmares about these Teratomorphic Kitties < 1470275238 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow in this DF world Dingo Men are the most successful < 1470275240 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wew < 1470275260 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470275261 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wew < 1470275264 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :wew? < 1470275348 0 :Froox!~Frooxius@194.108.5.201 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1470275390 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wew < 1470275393 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wew? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470275541 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :W E W L A D < 1470275541 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :E < 1470275542 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :W < 1470275543 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :L < 1470275544 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :A < 1470275545 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :D < 1470275747 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION confusingly mapoles Phantom_Hoover < 1470276148 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1470276162 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is boily still doing here < 1470276230 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and where is oerjan? < 1470276244 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im busy beheading my monstercats in DF < 1470276255 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :tdnh < 1470276255 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470276270 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i keep oneshotting them >_> < 1470276292 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470276309 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdnh < 1470276334 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan do you beer < 1470276355 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and they have 2048 brains bythe way < 1470276415 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :svmdnh < 1470276430 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :4EARS:8NOSE:16LUNGS:32HEART:64GUTS:128ORGANS:256THROAT:512NECK:1024SPINE:2048BRAIN < 1470276433 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is ur list < 1470276449 0 :Akaibu!uid118096@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jgbqintjraskqgns QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1470276580 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1470276639 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not there. I am an illusion. < 1470276650 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION flees and hides under covers < 1470276657 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: PRIMITIVE CHICKEN < 1470276889 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :MoonyTheHuman, this reminds me of a story i red < 1470276891 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :*read < 1470276999 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470277516 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470277675 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i am not sure when's the last time i beered. it may have been a family visit some years ago. on rare occasions i cognac or aquavit. hm, i haven't had wine in a while either. < 1470278592 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470278627 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470278703 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1470278757 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470279012 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: i just tried a Nøgne Ø doible IPA and it was pretty bad so so far norways beer performance is a bit lacking < 1470279021 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :aquavit is good tho < 1470279318 0 :MoonyTheHuman!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1470279459 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is JOIN :#esoteric < 1470279568 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm.. Anyone know of any macro extensible version of LOOP or other esolang that is basically at the primitive recursive function level of completeness? < 1470279586 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have a problem with the GHC user's guide. its table of contents needs a table of contents. < 1470279729 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: i got confused because BlooP is like the last part of that. < 1470279967 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking if combining something like such macro LOOP with something like Postscript display model or RIPSCRIP|NAPLPS plus outside eventlooping would yeild somewhat usable software whose turns|iteration of the eventloop are known to terminate* < 1470280056 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :(* property of primitive recursive functions that by construction they do terminate as the only backbranching (or backjumping) construct is a countdown loop whose counter is only set right before it is entered) < 1470280066 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i Zarutian38 < 1470280137 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: ? < 1470280277 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :never mind < 1470280451 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP RIP < 1470280467 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good ol' BBSes < 1470280609 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome Cale < 1470280622 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04Cale: 07Welcome 08to 09the 02international 06hub 13for 04esoteric 07programming 08language 09design 02and 06deployment! 13For 04more 07information, 08check 09out 02our 06wiki: 13. 04(For 07the 08other 09kind 02of 06esoterica, 13try 04#esoteric 07on 08EFnet 09or 02DALnet.) < 1470280641 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such colours < 1470280879 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Welvomr < 1470280885 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damnit < 1470280935 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ln -s relcome bin/04w08e09l11c12o13m04e < 1470280940 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1470280954 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`04w08e09l11c12o13m04e HackEgo < 1470280957 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09HackEgo: 02Welcome 06to 13the 04international 07hub 08for 09esoteric 02programming 06language 13design 04and 07deployment! 08For 09more 02information, 06check 13out 04our 07wiki: 08. 09(For 02the 06other 13kind 04of 07esoterica, 08try 09#esoteric 02on 06EFnet 13or 04DALnet.) < 1470280964 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more like it tdh < 1470281014 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the choice of starting colour randomised, or based on the user's name? < 1470281021 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`welcome HackEgo < 1470281023 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) < 1470281025 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, heh < 1470281032 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome HackEgo < 1470281034 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​09HackEgo: 02Welcome 06to 13the 04international 07hub 08for 09esoteric 02programming 06language 13design 04and 07deployment! 08For 09more 02information, 06check 13out 04our 07wiki: 08. 09(For 02the 06other 13kind 04of 07esoterica, 08try 09#esoteric 02on 06EFnet 13or 04DALnet.) < 1470281039 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/relcome < 1470281039 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords < 1470281045 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/rainwords < 1470281045 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/hackenv/bin/shebang_args_or_input python \ import random; w=[l.split() for l in open("/dev/stdin").read().split("\n")]; r=[4,7,8,9,2,6,13]; print "\n".join((lambda s: " ".join(chr(3) + "%02d"%r[(i+s)%len(r)] + l[i] for i in range(len(l))))(random.randrange(0, len(r))) for l in w) < 1470281190 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that no one `relcomed Zarutian, but isn't sure whether e's new or not. < 1470281242 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale, hackego is a sandboxed linux system < 1470281265 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:9840:324:f52e:553d:fb4f:6b44 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: haha, check this out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow-growing_hierarchy#Relation_to_fast-growing_hierarchy < 1470281339 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That article title looks like a joke. < 1470281384 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is great. < 1470281434 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what HackEgo would do with: curl -sS https://gist.githubusercontent.com/zarutian/9191d98f731241a52e1a4f6a59dd0587/raw/f4b7cee07dea66e8721ded9559059245e79bdf9b/test.sh | tee test.sh | openssl dgst -sha256 | { read k; if [ "$k" == "113b61457034e72b9a12eb875df5ed71e265dcc6105c00e472187d30c0cc8c88" ] ; then source test.sh ; else echo "failed"; fi } < 1470281468 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No network access < 1470281481 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Curl doesnt exist to hackego anyways < 1470281549 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw that is a demostration of a better curlpipebash though such things are still rather bad < 1470281642 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo -n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256 < 1470281644 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256 < 1470281686 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use `` for multiple args < 1470281697 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dont forget the space < 1470281709 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also you can /msg HackEgo to try things out. < 1470281717 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just make sure that if you change anything you do it in the channel. < 1470281718 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` echo -n "bla" | openssl dgst -sha256 < 1470281720 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :WARNING: can't open config file: /usr/lib/ssl/openssl.cnf \ (stdin)= 4df3c3f68fcc83b27e9d42c90431a72499f17875c81a599b566c9889b9696703 < 1470281754 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470282199 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? mustard watch < 1470282201 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mustard watch? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470282302 0 :moonythedwarf!~androirc@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470282346 0 :moon_!~AndChat17@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470282388 0 :moon_!?@? NICK :moonythedwarf < 1470282407 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`le/rn mustard watch/A mustard watch is just a classical watch extended with a certain amount of mustard in the mechanism. < 1470282410 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned «mustard watch» < 1470282572 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470283210 0 :centrinia!~centrinia@107-208-218-105.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1470284338 0 :moonythedwarf!~AndChat17@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Excess Flood < 1470284356 0 :moon_!~AndChat17@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470284384 0 :moon_!?@? NICK :moonythedwarf < 1470284538 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1470286285 0 :moonythedwarf!~AndChat17@tx-76-1-72-128.dhcp.embarqhsd.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1470286802 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is QUIT :Quit: Zarutian < 1470287419 0 :mrSynAckster!~mrSynAcks@ool-18b91eb3.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470287426 0 :mrSynAckster!~mrSynAcks@ool-18b91eb3.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sup brainfuckers ;) < 1470288045 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1470288157 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1470288189 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1470288373 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1470288402 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1470288520 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1470288543 0 :mrSynAckster!~mrSynAcks@ool-18b91eb3.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unusually quiet in here tonight. < 1470288545 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1470288676 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1470288988 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1470289012 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470289251 0 :Alcest!~alcest@69.64.40.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470289257 0 :mrSynAckster!~mrSynAcks@ool-18b91eb3.dyn.optonline.net PART #esoteric : < 1470289353 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470289411 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@cpe-75-187-129-201.neo.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1470290452 0 :byteflame!~byteflame@50.25.160.41 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470291471 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? brainfuck < 1470291486 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array < 1470292022 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? taste < 1470292024 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :taste? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470292030 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? flavor < 1470292032 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :flavor? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470292034 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? flavour < 1470292035 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :flavour? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470292038 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1470292055 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` rgrep 'of the day' wisdom < 1470292064 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/markdown:The markdown flavor of the day is walnut. < 1470292096 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd markdown//s/walnut/camphor/ < 1470292100 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom/markdown//The markdown flavor of the day is camphor. < 1470292495 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn The number of the hour is 14. < 1470292497 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'number': The number of the hour is 14. < 1470292543 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I added the program to make hint files into FreeUHS. < 1470292564 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please look at the documentation and tell me if it is good or not good or whatever. < 1470292577 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you didn't provide a link to the documentation. < 1470292626 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.npmjs.com/package/freeuhs < 1470292792 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also has JSON export and SQL export. < 1470294778 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470297735 0 :kuroro!~kuroro@69.165.253.74 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1470299245 0 :kuroro!~kuroro@69.165.253.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470300704 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470300871 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470301348 0 :Akaibu!uid118096@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-plyorrkkwrstuhyz JOIN :#esoteric < 1470302173 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1470303997 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-jhxbhcxcfmxkxqvo QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1470304012 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-efkeafpybyzslkdc JOIN :#esoteric < 1470304103 0 :augur!~augur@2601:640:8001:4222:3814:e19a:28b3:244 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470305002 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Question: Will silence fall? < 1470305345 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Falling on top of what? < 1470305362 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I type these messages on this computer, it makes noise; it doesn't silence. < 1470305535 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you threw silence off of a cliff, would it fall? < 1470305948 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMG < 1470305982 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trump's odds of winning (according to five3eight) have dropped to about 25% < 1470306000 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally. < 1470306228 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: So instead, we'll probably get... Hillary < 1470306308 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-48-196.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to injure both candidates so that they will not recover in time. < 1470306334 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. You'll probably get Hillary. I, on the other hand, will be sipping tea and watching as the rotten tomatoes get flung over that golf course I heard about. < 1470306378 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1470306386 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: Where do you live and how hard will it be to flee there? < 1470306413 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least one famous ship hit an iceberg when trying to get from here to where you are. < 1470306421 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait... < 1470306424 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "here" is at the country level. < 1470306431 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that New York? < 1470306437 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :No? < 1470306438 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I seem to remember the Titanic aiming for New York < 1470306439 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1470306441 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Canada, then? < 1470306449 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has to be one of the two < 1470306453 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the titanic was aiming for New York < 1470306459 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :then where was it coming from? < 1470306468 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm 99% certain that the Titanic was going west) < 1470306476 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(exactly) < 1470306483 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Russia? < 1470306486 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1470306492 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :England! < 1470306495 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh < 1470306502 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the Titanic was going East then? < 1470306505 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1470306528 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: Europe is east of the U.S. < 1470306540 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. So if it was going *from* Europe < 1470306543 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*to* the US < 1470306550 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH < 1470306553 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :OMFG < 1470306562 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I read it "to here from where you are" < 1470306578 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then read it that way again repeatedly < 1470306586 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1470306603 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes and sits in the stupid hole < 1470306611 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gives hppavilion[1] a biscuit < 1470306639 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/531/391/b58.gif is what people hereabouts tend to use when they've done something like that. < 1470306677 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth is that? < 1470306689 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the shame cube. < 1470306702 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I thought it was the shame matrix of solidity? < 1470306725 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know where it's from. Know Your Meme just has the image in their gallery, no explanations. < 1470306728 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a box you can... meditate... in < 1470306790 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(now I'm wondering why Portal doesn't feature one of those... it would fit perfectly) < 1470306837 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps you could even use one to capture turrets. < 1470306897 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would be much more turricula < 1470306908 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which would be much more turriculane than the usual technique of knocking them over? < 1470306940 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Maybe in Portal 3 < 1470307046 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :To jump back to the original conversation -- given recent events, I'd think fleeing to here is going to be increasingly difficult, what with this whole "get all them foreigners out" stuff. < 1470308414 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But almost everyone in England is a foreigner. < 1470309644 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: No, that's america < 1470309669 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wait, are we talking about immigration recently or about the fact that Americans are all immigrants unless they're native?) < 1470309676 0 :augur!~augur@2601:640:8001:4222:3814:e19a:28b3:244 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470309729 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talking about the fact that people in England tend not to be US citizens, under a US-centric view of the world. < 1470310553 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, right < 1470310635 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470311019 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahoilyQ < 1470311022 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Q/!/ < 1470311033 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wait, do I need to escape bangs?) < 1470311105 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :hppavellon[!]1 < 1470311140 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if you use them as /-substitutes hth < 1470312577 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1470312580 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1470312582 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1470312592 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1470312592 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1470312652 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1470312669 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cia//CIA sees it all. < 1470312674 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arabic//.scihpylgoreiH sa drah sa ton hguoht ,troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA < 1470312675 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :copower//Copower rrupts. < 1470312677 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :guestbot//guestbot is nobody < 1470312730 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :how the fungot am I supposed to format wisdom/arabic in the PDF... < 1470312757 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd half a mind to delete it. < 1470312774 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`howg guestbot < 1470312778 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ revert accbc9c5c7ec \ echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ revert \ revert 1 \ revert \ for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ learn guestbot is nobody < 1470312789 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: Well, by the look of it, it's just in reverse < 1470312791 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :no special chars < 1470312802 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: feel free to revert it < 1470312819 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :taht etalume tsuj os < 1470312923 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? cat < 1470312925 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cats are cool, but should be illegal. < 1470312927 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? dog < 1470312929 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dog? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470312930 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? pooch < 1470312931 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pooch? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470312935 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but I'd like for the arabic part to be to the right. and maybe LaTeX supports character reflections, so it can really be RTL. < 1470312936 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? zebra < 1470312937 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zebra? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1470313045 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :boily: don't do character reflections for this. reflect the whole paragraph. < 1470313148 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :uuh... that's what I meant, just checking if somebody paid attention... < 1470313176 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think the arabic entry shouldn't be reflected < 1470313195 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to whistle innocently, but only splits bits of peanut butter toast < 1470313197 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should either just show it as is, or show it aligned to the right margin instead of the left < 1470313219 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ss\split\ss\spit\ss < 1470313699 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How long do you think it is before fandoms dominate enough of the world that politicians start having to pander to them? < 1470313713 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently, Ted Cruz officially* endorsed Applejack as best pony < 1470313727 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Weirdly < 1470313771 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: WORTHY CHICKEN < 1470314310 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`hd wisdom/arabic < 1470314312 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :000000 2e 73 63 69 68 70 79 6c 67 6f 72 65 69 48 20 73 >.scihpylgoreiH s< \ 000010 61 20 64 72 61 68 20 73 61 20 74 6f 6e 20 68 67 >a drah sa ton hg< \ 000020 75 6f 68 74 20 2c 74 72 6f 70 70 75 73 20 73 74 >uoht ,troppus st< \ 000030 6e 6f 66 20 65 6b 61 6d 20 6f 74 20 64 72 61 68 >nof ekam ot drah< \ 000040 20 79 72 65 76 20 73 69 20 74 61 68 < 1470314900 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo ‮Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics. < 1470314901 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​‮Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics. < 1470314921 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how many terminals display that correctly. < 1470314947 0 :nortti!nortti@ayu.smar.moe PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of three. os x terminal.app, pangoterm, and one I can't remember the name of < 1470315053 0 :bauen1!~bauen1@2a02:810d:1980:1584:f0eb:ba4:c3b6:664f JOIN :#esoteric < 1470315244 0 :bauen1_!~bauen1@2a02:810d:1980:1584:693a:705c:8bb4:7898 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1470315716 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: What counts as correctly, and what as incorrectly? < 1470315779 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw this (typed out rather than copy-pasted): "Arabic is a central semitic language that is very hard to make fonts support, though not as hard as Hieroglyphics." < 1470315788 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that what it's supposed to look like? < 1470316386 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I see is ",troppus stnof ekam ot drah yrev si taht egaugnal citimes lartnec a si cibarA not as hard as Hieroglyphics." < 1470316410 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there's also "hguoht" at the start. < 1470316421 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering where that "though" went. < 1470316592 0 :hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470316902 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover PRIVMSG #esoteric :But which one is correct???? < 1470317484 0 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1470317905 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, then why didn't you say that, stupid error message? < 1470318213 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470319412 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: that's a... novel interpretation of RTLO. < 1470319462 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, most articles about the RTLO seem to be about using it to spoof filename extensions. < 1470319571 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Blame the line break. < 1470319587 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Well, word-wrapping break. < 1470319614 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's after "cibarA" that it wraps to the next line. < 1470321074 0 :byteflame!~byteflame@70-89-65-45-little-rock-ar.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470321752 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1470328965 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:BackFlip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49071&oldid=19937 5* 03Weux082690 5* (+513) 10/* Boolean Logic */ new section < 1470328986 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:BackFlip14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49072&oldid=49071 5* 03Weux082690 5* (+92) 10/* Boolean Logic */ < 1470331060 0 :Kaynato!~Aedile@cpe-75-187-129-201.neo.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1470331099 0 :bauen1!~bauen1@2a02:810d:1980:1584:f0eb:ba4:c3b6:664f QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1470331182 0 :bauen1!~bauen1@2a02:810d:1980:1584:f0eb:ba4:c3b6:664f JOIN :#esoteric < 1470331440 0 :atrapado!~atrapado@unaffiliated/atrapado JOIN :#esoteric < 1470332429 0 :bauen1!~bauen1@2a02:810d:1980:1584:f0eb:ba4:c3b6:664f QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1470332944 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1470333102 0 :bauen1!~bauen1@2a02:810d:1980:1584:f0eb:ba4:c3b6:664f JOIN :#esoteric < 1470334974 0 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1470335571 0 :Alcest!~alcest@69.64.40.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1470337189 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1470337756 0 :augur!~augur@2601:640:8001:4222:a898:d7f1:be73:a3a1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470339642 0 :miketo!~miketo@unaffiliated/miketo JOIN :#esoteric < 1470341244 0 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know of a simple black-box testing framework I can use to test my esolang interpreter? As in, running my program with lots of different input and testing for output or performance regressions < 1470341267 0 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm using a home-made shell script currently, but it feels like I'm reinventing the wheel < 1470341331 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :home-made shell scripts are pretty useful to get things quickly. As long as you don't try embedding a scripting language into it... < 1470341344 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is JOIN :#esoteric < 1470341366 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's probably a better way, but it depends what language your esolang interpreter is written in < 1470341413 0 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's worked pretty well so far, but it only checks stdout/stderr output. I'd love to be able to monitor performance improvements/regressions, but that complicates things a lot < 1470341421 0 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :FWIW, the interpreter is written in C < 1470341754 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps consider a define to load & run the test suite from a file (alternating code/input/output) then write out the test times to another file? < 1470341769 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That way you don't end up covering binary start times, which will always be off on the first test, < 1470341775 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :etcetc. < 1470341796 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's some complex stuff about caching which I don't think anybody entirely understands) < 1470341834 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe there should be a sysfs interface for finding out about - and potentially adding to - the cache...) < 1470341909 0 :augur!~augur@2601:640:8001:4222:a898:d7f1:be73:a3a1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470341916 0 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel like I'm gonna spend more time creating a test system than improving the interpreter < 1470342783 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell boily USPS is chatting with Postes Canada to find out why this package was returned to me. They'll get back to me by Sep. 8. Is this too long to wait for redress y/n? < 1470342783 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1470342890 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: That's true. You'd probably spend more time configuring any test system you get than the interpreter, anyway. < 1470342936 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :haavard: So, you'd probably end up spending more time either way than if you stick with the shell script... < 1470342985 0 :haavard!freebsd@haavard.me PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I'm sticking with the basic shell script for now. The only thing it lacks is performance testing, anyway < 1470343066 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easily doable just with a few additional lines in the program itself to check the time at the start & end. < 1470343226 0 :byteflame!~byteflame@70-89-65-45-little-rock-ar.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1470343398 0 :byteflame!~byteflame@70-89-65-45-little-rock-ar.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470344107 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somehow I think Cindercone is getting hacked. < 1470344257 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@2a00:f41:381a:a3ce:de85:deff:fe55:967a JOIN :#esoteric < 1470344581 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the expected run time of a program that mmaps a 4gb file on a machine with less than 4gb free ram, and then writes a byte in 1 million random positions on that file? < 1470344618 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a 5700rpm hdd < 1470344738 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Around about 8.2zorks. The realtime values depend on, for starters, HDD density, kernel version, and magic. < 1470344766 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know how much magic i get < 1470344769 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do i test that? < 1470344784 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, no, it's not how much magic. < 1470344795 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just magic itself provides the answer. Kind of. < 1470344805 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has a lot to learn < 1470344817 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...in all seriousness, though, IDK? Try it and find out! :) < 1470344892 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty sure HDD density and kernel version are major factors, but so are things like "what else is currently causing HDD usage" and "what other programs does the kernel consider a priority..." < 1470344932 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, if you were running two copies of this program, you'd get different results. < 1470345185 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the actual read granularity of modern drives? I imagine it could be larger than the typical 4kb page size... < 1470345284 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends on the drive, but most commonly it's 4k on new spinning rust. < 1470345319 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if it were 4kb, then you'd be loading about 1.47GB of data... if that fits in the RAM and the read heads don't have to move you're looking at about half an hour. In practice, I wouldn't be surprised to be off by a factor of 4 in either direction, and possibly more. < 1470345362 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :The real answer is to measure, not guess. < 1470345365 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not reading in < 1470345382 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :the kernel will read in < 1470345396 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok but it can discard each page as soon as it's read < 1470345414 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's the slow part... writing out can be delayed and done in a nice escalator algorithm fashion so I expect it will actually be quite a bit faster. < 1470345422 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: it won't. < 1470345444 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :It won't unless you specifically tell it to with madvise. < 1470345446 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since you're going to read each sector approximately e times, it's actually worthwhile to keep them around < 1470345452 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok let's try with madvise < 1470345475 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sectore/4kb block/ < 1470345511 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you say MADV_DONTNEED each time it still probably *won't* immediately flush to disk. < 1470345563 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, are MADV_DONTNEED pages zeroed eagerly? < 1470345582 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference between MADV_FREE and MADV_DONTNEED < 1470345590 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :the man page isn't clear about it < 1470345601 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(just realiizing that I know dangerously little about the specifics of Linux' memory management) < 1470345639 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: They're not zeroed *at all*. < 1470345667 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: afaiui there's a pool of zeroed pages for mmap of /dev/zero. < 1470345695 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :MADV_DONTNEED only informs the kernel that a given memory range won't be accessed soon, so the kernel is free to discard the in-memory page (in which case reads will trigger a load from the backing store). < 1470345702 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very useful because the C library likes to satsify large calloc requests that way < 1470345723 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and malloc... not clearing pages would produce data leaks) < 1470345738 0 :xfix!~xfix@unaffiliated/xfix QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1470345739 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470345767 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :MADV_FREE does MADV_DONTNEED, but if it discards the in-memory page it will zero-fill on demand (i.e. COW a zero page) instead of loading from backing store. < 1470345797 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :MADV_DONTNEED also works on any memory mapping, while MADV_FREE only works on private anonymous pages. < 1470345843 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: that's totally not in the man page < 1470345858 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it is < 1470345863 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :So: MADV_DONTNEED is a minor potential optimization for reducing the working set. MADV_FREE is usable by a malloc's free() implementation. < 1470345867 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1470345874 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :U MADV < 1470345878 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth < 1470345894 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you're just as helpful as usual < 1470345904 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have the same feel to it now that elliott is gone. < 1470345940 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :would MADV_DONTDUMP also improve performance somehow? < 1470345962 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only when you're crashing. < 1470345969 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Really? I think that's a lot less helpful than usual. < 1470345977 0 :Eritzap!6d59ebac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.89.235.172 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470346013 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't take participate in this conversation on my phone, anyway. < 1470346026 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I believe that you only add "hth" when whatever you say is not, actually, very helpful. < 1470346044 0 :xfix!~xfix@unaffiliated/xfix JOIN :#esoteric < 1470346057 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's the standard usage in this channel. < 1470346061 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is perfectly fine, btw < 1470346073 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I put it on helpful things, though. < 1470346079 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries with MADV_RANDOM < 1470346085 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta keep people on their toes, right? < 1470346114 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@2601:647:4b00:63aa:eade:27ff:fe08:b48b PRIVMSG #esoteric :izabera: The situation you describe would best fit MADV_RANDOM, yeah. < 1470346234 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder whether it would be worthwhile to make a list of 1000 random addresses, tell the kernel that they will be needed using MADV_WILLNEED, and then start modifying the bytes... < 1470346256 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :...the theory being that this gives the kernel an opportunity to schedule the disk reads nicely < 1470346273 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, do you know the addresses in advance? < 1470346305 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: it's just chunking < 1470346376 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, instead of generating a random address for each write access, I would generate a few in advance, then write. < 1470346390 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :this may not be possible in all cases. < 1470346898 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I also have no clue whether it actually pays off... it's a matter of magic. < 1470346955 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmap is slightly scow < 1470347262 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrrr @mercurial... why does a hg revert -a not clear the resolution status of files < 1470347294 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: why is that? < 1470347313 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1470347335 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It blocks the whole thread when there's a page fault, so it's unusable if you implement your own threading. < 1470347383 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that means you don't like any virtual memory management at all < 1470347394 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably. < 1470347411 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I want it to integrate with my userspace threads better. < 1470347457 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :use OS threads. < 1470347472 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you're worried about page faults, just have a thread controlling access to the memory, and then use FIFOs to send commands to/from it. < 1470347481 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :How will you allocate memory for these FIFOs? mmap, of course... < 1470347493 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :page faults take up time, that's the nature of page faults. < 1470347538 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no sane other way. The thing that causes the page fault is a plain CPU instruction... So whatever alternative instructions you want to have executed while the page is loaded, the kernel will have to know about. That's what OS threads are for. < 1470347572 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, asynchronous page faults could be an option. < 1470347617 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When a page fault is executing, your program is in the middle of an instruction. < 1470347620 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you'd have to talk to CPU desgners about that. < 1470347623 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not really any better API that is possible. < 1470347716 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should be possible to have instructions that check whether a page is currently mapped. and I could imagine triggering some sort of "soft" page fault as well [arguably madvise fills that niche already]. < 1470347742 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it needs serious effort and I'm not convinced it's worth it. < 1470347756 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Checking whether a page is currently mapped has a race condition, of course. < 1470347763 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless that instruction is mlock or something. < 1470347776 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, never mind, "instruction". < 1470347782 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :By that, do you mean that the page can be unmapped before you actually do anything with it? < 1470347814 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :And with Linux, you can have page faults on any memory access anyway. Code is loaded using mmap, and basically anything can be swapped. < 1470347837 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :To put it simply... If you are working on a system where the memory is managed for you, expect the memory to be managed for you. < 1470347879 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'd like my RTS to manage my memory, not the kernel. < 1470347894 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or at least I have to have it do that. < 1470347903 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My thoughts are not coherent right now. < 1470347924 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I'm sure there's some way to coerce the kernel with some specific obscure features. < 1470347949 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And by "coerce" I mean "make it so page faults are not a thing, ever, unless you are using mmap for file IO" < 1470348000 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably mlock (shachaf mentioned it) goes a long way in that direction < 1470348022 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :When what more is there to say? :) < 1470348025 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Then < 1470348073 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: rhetorical questions are dangerous on here... they tend to get answered. < 1470348108 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then why haven't pigs started to fly? < 1470348111 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks out of the window < 1470348118 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: physics! < 1470348130 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was hoping pigs would start to fly. :( < 1470348152 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: I guess a catapult would do the trick < 1470348158 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :gamemanj: or an airplane < 1470348232 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Delivery on receipt of one (1) English pound to the first person who walks to with a picture of a pig on an aeroplane - preferably piloting it." < 1470348246 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :...would be what I was writing if I was living in the 1900's. < 1470348312 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, the person would just fly the aeroplane there, < 1470348328 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously piloting it, < 1470348338 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then walk about it a bit so as to meet the second requirement. < 1470348350 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :*first requirement, not second. < 1470348377 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then they'd ask for two pounds just because they cheated the system. < 1470348436 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be nice to have asynchronous L2 caches < 1470348467 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperthreading < 1470348488 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, to some extent this idea is implemented < 1470348509 0 :Eritzap!6d59ebac@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.89.235.172 QUIT :Quit: Page closed < 1470348519 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if you can detect this by pinning pairs of hyperthreads so that each one wakes up when the other faults < 1470348589 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, hyperthreads *are* a target for side channel attacks < 1470348611 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the fuck 'hyper'-threads are. < 1470348619 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not quite what you said, but this has real world security implications) < 1470348632 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: several threads running on a single core < 1470348636 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun thing: try truncating a file that's being mmaped by someone else < 1470348644 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyperthreads are tg < 1470348657 0 :alercah!raedford@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: hyperthreads are when a single processor interleaves computations on multiple threads as if it were two separate CPUs < 1470348658 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: how is that diffrent from usual multithreading? < 1470348669 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :it causes a bus error in the process that mmaped that file < 1470348671 0 :alercah!raedford@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: it's hardware-level < 1470348676 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: the idea is that each thread will suffer from latencies and not use all execution units, so two threads can better use the core. < 1470348679 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there even any way to detect that before it happens? < 1470348685 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: oh, an never works fast. < 1470348690 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: more traditionally, threads would be one per core. < 1470348739 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: hyperthreads each seems to suffer from the combined latencies of two or more threads. < 1470348745 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: from a logical point of view there is no difference to normal multithreading (that's pretty much the point really). < 1470348771 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :Zarutian: they are designed to improve total throughput. < 1470348775 0 :gamemanj!~gamemanj@cpc84817-aztw28-2-0-cust142.18-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1470348787 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :they will slow down individual threads (hopefully only slightly) < 1470348848 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: total throughbut yes, overall slowdown much more noticable. (At least in soft-hard realtime applications such as interactive A/V processing) < 1470348923 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1470348948 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's application specific. I care a lot about make -j wallclock time and then hyperthreading is actually a good thing < 1470349071 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in principle a kernel could reserve a whole core for realtime threads (reducing latencies) and use hyperthreading for batch threads (improving throughput). Is that done? < 1470349074 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :isnt make mostly IO bound and that to mass storage? < 1470349106 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :It depends. Recompiling stuff (after editing a file) tends to be served from the fs cache. < 1470349109 0 :Zarutian!~zarutian@168-110-22-46.fiber.hringdu.is PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think hyperthreading is just turned on by default without any regard of this issues. < 1470349114 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :make is mostly the-build-tools-it-runs-bound. < 1470349170 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm mainly talking about make because it's what I use for parallelization of those other tools. < 1470349203 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :linux probably assumes that people who set up real-time systems know how to pin them to cpus. < 1470349251 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how to come up with scheduling priorities that don't lock up the whole system. < 1470350043 0 :byteflame!~byteflame@70-89-65-45-little-rock-ar.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1470350314 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Quit: Jafet < 1470350359 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1470350392 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470350474 0 :MoALTz!~no@78-11-183-124.static.ip.netia.com.pl QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1470350572 0 :moon___!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470350576 0 :moon___!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :76.1.72.128 at port 5138 << little telnet based chat im working on, it already has nicknames and so far only one bug i can find which might just be microsoft telnet being wierd < 1470350682 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc already is a little telnet based chat < 1470350693 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1470350709 0 :moon___!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ik lol, im just writing it for fun < 1470351556 0 :moon___!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1470351603 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1470351623 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a vague question. < 1470351628 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose I have a group presentation. < 1470351638 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can I write a nice machine-readable proof that the group it presents is finite? < 1470351679 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18e43ef5.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470351699 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a decision problem there, of course: given a group presentation, determine whether or not the presented group is finite. < 1470351716 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that decision problem even semidecidable in either direction? < 1470351732 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmm. < 1470351744 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :To prove that the group given by a presentation is finite, you can get part of the way by specifying a multiplication table for the group. < 1470351749 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"presentation" is the thing with generators and equations, right? < 1470351753 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1470351762 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's easy to verify that the group given by the multiplication table has all the generators and satisfies all the equations. < 1470351773 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it < 1470351786 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's tempting to think that finiteness is semidecidable :P < 1470351793 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but probably wrong. < 1470351835 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've got it. Yes, it's semidecidable. < 1470351846 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1470351851 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Suppose that the generated group is, in fact, finite. Then there's a proof that it's finite, consisting of... < 1470351862 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of equational proofs < 1470351884 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A multiplication table, where every element of the multiplication table is written in terms of the generators. < 1470351895 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... < 1470351904 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I shouldn't have guessed wrong in the first place... from my theoretical background this should've been immediately obvious. lala < 1470351907 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each generator must be present as one of the elements of the multiplication table. < 1470351927 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And finally, prove that each of the equations implied by the multiplication table follows from the presentation. < 1470351934 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Righto. < 1470351979 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not necessarily a very concise proof, though. < 1470351996 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it settles the question < 1470352037 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm wondering how to write a *nice* machine-readable proof that the generated group is finite. < 1470352176 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a group presentation written in terse notation: < 1470352181 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ss; tt; ststststst < 1470352185 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoops, lemme try again. < 1470352188 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ss; ttt; ststststst < 1470352241 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to this page, that group presentation is for A5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentation_of_a_group < 1470352256 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But A5 has 60 elements. < 1470352265 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So its multiplication table has 3600 entries. < 1470352273 0 :moon__!4c014880@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.72.128 JOIN :#esoteric < 1470352335 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a "nice" way, then, to prove that the generated group is finite? < 1470352564 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you can reduce the multiplication table size; you only need to be able to multiply by generators and their inverses < 1470352651 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. http://mathoverflow.net/questions/7721/what-methods-exist-to-prove-that-a-finitely-presented-group-is-finite < 1470352657 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or perhaps you can produce a complete list of suffixes that are each equivalent to a shorter one < 1470352677 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I'd investigate (Knuth-Bendix) completion in this context < 1470352717 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hmm, prefixes are conceptually easier) < 1470352768 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :/whois ________________ < 1470352790 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I had not looked at the link when I suggested Knuth-Bendix completion) < 1470352908 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the main point of doing completion would be to actually find equational proofs. < 1470352912 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tietze_transformations - maybe you could prove that a group is finite by using Tietze transformations to turn its presentation into one that's "obviously" finite. < 1470352986 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are there any finitely presented groups which are infinite, but where every element has finite order? < 1470353289 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470353345 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1470353659 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :`wisdom < 1470353663 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@massages-loud < 1470353663 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia said 3h 1m 20s ago: USPS is chatting with Postes Canada to find out why this package was returned to me. They'll get back to me by Sep. 8. Is this too long to wait for redress y/n? < 1470353675 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hockey//Hockey is okey, but parsley is gharsley. < 1470353708 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess one "easy" way to prove that a finitely presented group is finite is by showing that every expression longer than a certain length is equivalent to a shorter one. < 1470353730 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell quintopia quinthellopia. I'll be on vacation between September 3 and September 18 inclusive. Like, really on vacation. Like, on another continent. If you could resend after that, that'd be great. I'll be home at that time. < 1470353730 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1470353775 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, consider this group presentation in terse notation: < 1470353776 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aa < 1470353792 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswellott. aa? < 1470353799 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a group presentation. < 1470353804 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :tswett: I think I pretty much suggested this < 1470353807 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloily. if you'd rather pick it up in person, come meet me at niagara falls on october 9th... < 1470353810 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: right. < 1470353839 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Every expression for that group presentation contains one of these four subexpressions: aa, aa', a'a, a'a' < 1470353845 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each of which is equivalent to e. < 1470353846 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :niagara falls is what... 9 hours from here? < 1470353889 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :probs. but it's at least twice that from here, so i'm doing most of the work here. besides, i'll be there anyway :P < 1470353898 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.252.9.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a good argument :D < 1470353927 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man, this is turning out to be a bit of a tricky problem. < 1470353937 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a different problem... < 1470354015 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :istm that "group presentation" doesn't have its usual meaning here... < 1470354042 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"m", hmm < 1470354070 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove that the additive group of the integers (characterized as the initial ring) is freely generated by 1. < 1470354072 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: aa means aa = e, or a = a^-1. < 1470354103 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an abelian group? < 1470354114 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1470354114 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, nonsense < 1470354124 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's cyclic anyway < 1470354137 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That the additive abelian group of the integers is the abelian group freely generated by 1. < 1470354165 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: very different from a group of people working together to research, organize, and present, in speech form, some information to a larger group < 1470354192 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: AH, that didn't occur to me at all, thanks < 1470354214 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: so what does "m" in "istm" stand for? < 1470354218 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Memorialize. < 1470354220 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :me < 1470354239 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. "it", not "I". < 1470354263 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's where I went wrong. (mislead by "istr") < 1470354273 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :or misled < 1470354292 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what 4la's are for: mizzling < 1470354309 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :meddling < 1470354334 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :is in mislington bile < 1470354415 0 :tswett!~tswett@192.241.237.138 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iimb < 1470354442 0 :int-e!~noone@static.88-198-179-137.clients.your-server.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if I may believe" < 1470354916 0 :myname!~myname@84.200.43.57 QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds