←2016-08-20 2016-08-21 2016-08-22→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:38 <\oren\_> (technically, I arrived a while ago but we had some errands before checkin at the hotel)
00:01:08 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\.
00:05:31 <FireFly> How uh confusing
00:05:35 <FireFly> I know someone there
00:06:32 <ais523> is Kelowna smaller or larger than Hexham?
00:07:01 <\oren\> Kelowna has a very small runway, which we barely stopped before the end of
00:08:04 <FireFly> Apparently Kelowna is about 10× as big as Hexham
00:08:11 <FireFly> so I guess it's not that much of a coincidence
00:08:17 <FireFly> relatively speaking
00:12:05 <fizzie> Hum.
00:12:36 <alercah> \oren\: vacation? conference?
00:15:33 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
00:15:33 <lambdabot> EGLL 202250Z AUTO 23015KT 9999 BKN016 16/13 Q1009 TEMPO -SHRA BKN014
00:31:50 <FireFly> @metar ESSB
00:31:50 <lambdabot> ESSB 202320Z AUTO 10004KT 9999 BKN061/// BKN088/// OVC120/// 16/14 Q1014
00:31:55 <FireFly> slashes, eh
00:36:34 <shachaf> I knew someone there.
00:37:26 <\oren\> alercah: my uncle's wedding
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01:12:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm surprised nobody ever invented a Lunacentric model of the universe
01:12:45 <myname> maybe because you can actually see with your bare eyes that this is wrong
01:13:28 <pikhq> win 27
01:13:30 <pikhq> :(
01:13:52 <myname> alt+j is way better
01:14:15 <pikhq> Not in my irssi.
01:14:24 <myname> define it
01:14:42 <myname> you can easily define itnup to 36
01:16:17 <shachaf> What, and stop winning?
01:16:31 <shachaf> I don't see how I would define it up to 36.
01:17:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How? I can't think of a way
01:17:06 <myname> 1 to 0 and a to z (the later in order of appearance on your keyboard layout"
01:17:25 <myname> last time.i checked, 10+26 was 36
01:18:30 <shachaf> But Alt-a already means "jump to window with activity".
01:18:46 <shachaf> Alt-b and alt-f mean jump backward and forward by a word
01:18:48 <myname> i don't see how that's useful
01:18:57 <shachaf> Alt-a is the most useful of all the keys.
01:19:15 <shachaf> Alt-d means delete a word.
01:19:19 <myname> how so? i see which window has activities and jump to it directly
01:19:23 <shachaf> Maybe I could rebind a few others to go past 19, though.
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01:30:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49622&oldid=49620 * DatCodingGuy * (+389) /* Introductions */
01:55:22 <ais523> ooh, I think it's working!
01:55:28 <ais523> (that's a legitimate user, almost certainly)
01:56:13 <ais523> although, hmm, they somehow found it without the message telling them to
01:56:35 <ais523> it's not their first edit
01:56:41 <ais523> I guess they saw it in recent changes and decided to join the party
02:15:28 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Maybe instead of making mechanisms so spammers can't spam, we should make an example out of people who do
02:15:43 * hppavilion[1] looks up medieval torture methods
02:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
02:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll go through MLP:FiM and extract every usage of teleportation in the series
02:26:09 <ais523> since when was teleportaton a medieval torture method?
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03:12:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49623&oldid=49592 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+0)
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03:33:35 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Those were two unrelated thoughts separated by nearly 5 minutes of intermittent time
03:34:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: But since you have to ask, you can teleport sharp objects into the liver
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04:18:07 * Sgeo wonders if he should try FTL
04:18:14 * Sgeo is vaguely aware that ais523 likes it
04:19:10 <Sgeo> BUt seeing the video just makes me want to play Space Station 13
04:20:03 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: what evidence is there that the moon is the center of everything?
04:20:20 <tswett> Classically, all heavy things tend to move towards the earth, so presumably the earth is the center of everything.
04:20:24 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What evidence is there that the earth is?
04:21:09 <tswett> The heavy-things-move-towards-earth thing.
04:21:28 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The lunacentric model wouldn't exist because someone just thought of it; it would either be cultural or as a parodical response to either geocentrists or heliocentrists
04:21:38 <tswett> Ah.
04:21:59 <hppavilion[1]> Probably something made around when heliocentrism was proposed, as a "yeah, that's just as absurd as this other thing"
04:23:56 <tswett> Nyow.
04:24:17 <tswett> I just read this post on the MIRI blog.
04:24:41 <tswett> It posits an interesting type of machine: the "reflective oracle".
04:24:54 <tswett> Lemme talk about how the reflective oracle works.
04:26:12 <tswett> A "reflective oracle machine", or ROM, is a Turing machine that is capable of performing a special operation, the reflective oracle operation.
04:27:13 <tswett> The reflective oracle operation attempts to answer this question: "Would a reflective oracle machine halt if given such-and-such input?"
04:27:40 <tswett> Now, reflective oracle machines are probabilistic, so the reflective oracle operation can't give the correct answer all of the time.
04:27:45 <tswett> But here's what it does do.
04:28:18 <tswett> If there's MORE than a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, it says "yes".
04:28:31 <tswett> If there's LESS than a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, it says "no".
04:28:50 <tswett> And finally, if there's EXACTLY a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, then the result is unspecified.
04:29:58 <hppavilion[1]> "abjad" is a stupid word
04:30:06 <tswett> It could always be yes, it could always be no, or it could be random.
04:30:13 <hppavilion[1]> Clearly, it should be called an "lphbt"
04:39:58 <tswett> I'm gonna write up an Esolang page describing a language that takes advantage of this.
04:40:22 <tswett> This is the blog post, by the way. https://intelligence.org/2016/06/30/grain-of-truth/
04:41:45 <tswett> The name I'm going to give it is the most obvious abbreviation of the phrase "Brainfuck Reflective Oracle Machine".
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05:17:17 <zzo38> How do I add the proper text into a contributing agreement to ensure that any patents will be freely usable and will be usable with GPL-compatible terms, even though the contribution is in the public domain?
05:19:38 <Sgeo> tswett, bah, unlike the "true/false/no answer" halting oracle, there's no trivial implementation I think
05:19:51 <tswett> zzo38: any patents on what?
05:20:37 <zzo38> Patents on the contributed code.
05:21:10 <tswett> On the code that *you* contribute? You don't need to say anything; other people can't patent stuff that you invented.
05:21:43 <zzo38> The agreement is for if anyone contribute something, not just myself
05:23:04 <tswett> If anyone contributes something to what? A project that you control, or a project someone else controls?
05:23:12 <zzo38> A project that I control.
05:25:08 <zzo38> I have been asked to make a contribution agreement, and part of the details about how to do so are specified (the part about copyright), but part about patent is also needed. My intention is that the patent is freely license for use with free-software/open-source without needing any kind of notifications or payments or whatever, and can be used freely by private use, and is compatible with the terms of GPL3.
05:26:33 <tswett> You could say that each contributor must release their contribution into the public domain AND release it under the GPL3.
05:38:44 <tswett> http://lpaste.net/179185 - someone post this to the wiki thanks.
05:38:51 <zzo38> That seem a bit strange to me isn't it?
05:39:11 <tswett> Kind of.
05:39:40 <tswett> The GPL3 is primarily a copyright license, and of course the copyright provisions of the license are redundant with being in the public domain.
05:39:45 <tswett> But it's a patent license too.
05:40:00 <tswett> So I feel like this is probably your easiest, simplest, and most effective option.
05:40:03 <alercah> it is not a patent license
05:40:15 <alercah> it is a coppyright license that, as a condition of copying, requires a patent license
05:40:58 <tswett> It says: "Each contributor grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free patent license ..."
05:41:46 <Lymia> !bfjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust
05:41:51 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust
05:41:55 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 41.67, score 302.42, rank 1/47 (+46)
05:41:59 <tswett> It seems pretty clear that if I say "I'm releasing such-and-such under the GPL3", that means I'm granting a patent license.
05:42:22 <Lymia> Annoying.
05:42:38 <quintopia> Lymia: annoying to be winning?
05:42:52 <Lymia> It's not working as intended. :(
05:44:10 <Lymia> !bfjoust test <
05:44:15 <Lymia> !zjoust test <
05:44:16 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
05:44:23 <zzo38> alercah: Yes, I know that, and that is how I am confuse to try to figure out how it is to do!
05:45:03 <quintopia> Lymia: are you trying to beat everything on the hill at every length and polarity
05:45:07 <Lymia> yes
05:45:17 <Lymia> That took 2 days to compute, and it didn't even work.
05:45:18 <Lymia> :(
05:45:46 <quintopia> well i'll be appreciative if you do. i can strike it off my long-term to-do list
05:45:57 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust
05:46:01 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 41.67, score 302.42, rank 1/47 (+46)
05:46:09 <alercah> zzo38: so to start with, you are Canadian, there is no concept of "public domain"
05:46:29 <alercah> (except by expiration of copyright)
05:46:46 <zzo38> It actually fall back to CC0 anyways, because now I have put that in as someone's suggestion.
05:47:02 <alercah> if you wish to ensure that no one can add patent encumberance to your code, you need to use copyleft
05:47:24 <Lymia> !zjoust test <
05:47:25 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
05:47:28 <Lymia> 300 KB though
05:47:29 <Lymia> Not bad
05:47:39 <alercah> because otherwise your license could be changed when a third party distributes it
05:48:32 <zzo38> I only wish to ensure that nobody contributes patent encumbered code to the main repository for my program.
05:48:40 <zzo38> If someone makes their own copy, they can do what they want with it.
05:49:12 <quintopia> Lymia: although i would appreciate it more if you could please avoid the use of any brackets? and also call the result "look_ma_no_brackets"?
05:50:14 <Lymia> .... I'm not 100% sure that's possible.
05:50:15 <Lymia> hmm
05:50:38 <Lymia> The ultimate goal is to have a big list of bots *not* on the hill.
05:51:01 <Lymia> And distinguish as many of them as possible to go into a "general purpose" algorithm so it still beats bots that aren't known.
05:51:02 <quintopia> well...there comes a certain number of bots where it isn't possible
05:52:18 <Lymia> http://pastebin.com/6sXxNmi5
05:52:19 <Lymia> hmm
05:52:48 <zzo38> If someone make the software proprietary then I don't care, but I do intend to stop them from suing anyone (under patent law) that does not make the software proprietary. And that they will agree to license the patents in a way compatible with GPL3, too.
05:53:12 <alercah> probably easiest to just use GPLv3 then
05:53:22 <Lymia> Now for debugging.
05:53:34 <Lymia> Do I have evaluation errors
05:54:56 <quintopia> Lymia: i wonder why preparation is beating it so badly!
05:55:15 <Lymia> Probably my VM has a bug and doesn't evaluate it correctly
05:55:23 <tswett> !zjoust
05:55:23 <zemhill__> tswett: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
05:55:40 <quintopia> looks like a misdetection. it didn't identify the flag at all
05:55:42 <Lymia> hippo_ballerina is simpler, and also seems to be a sore case
05:56:48 <Lymia> quintopia, problem is
05:57:00 <Lymia> That could be because it's evaluating preperation wrong, or because I have some weird issue.
05:57:12 <Lymia> It *should* be impossible for it to generate code that behaves differently from its "botting"
05:57:13 <Lymia> But.
05:57:27 <Lymia> If the VM has a bug, it will simulate the opponent wrong.
05:57:37 <quintopia> true
05:57:41 <quintopia> also, your vm is slow?
05:58:11 <Lymia> !bfjoust anti-hippo https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/29aa8b4899ac8370e8903634b8f78e7db9b91c84.bfjoust
05:58:13 <Lymia> It's not optimized
05:58:17 <Lymia> !zjoust anti-hippo https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/29aa8b4899ac8370e8903634b8f78e7db9b91c84.bfjoust
05:58:19 <zemhill__> Lymia.anti-hippo: points -33.64, score 3.67, rank 47/47
05:59:06 <tswett> Lymia: I'm so tempted to take your "test" and resubmit it myself.
05:59:28 <Lymia> meanie
05:59:36 <Lymia> I'll just have to submit a bigger better version ;P
05:59:47 <tswett> That would be kind of dishonest-slash-jerkish of me, though.
05:59:54 <zzo38> This is what I wrote for my contribution agreement is it good? http://sprunge.us/DHTW (the LICENSE file is a copy of the CC0 legal code)
06:00:04 <Lymia> hmmm
06:00:38 <Lymia> quintopia, I'm not actually sure if my VM is slow, actually.
06:00:44 <tswett> zzo38: no, the second paragraph is unclear.
06:00:51 <Lymia> Or if some programs just have nasty constructs that mess with it.
06:00:59 <Lymia> ... oh fuck
06:01:04 <Lymia> I hope I'm not using linked lists for the bytecode.
06:01:47 <Lymia> oppps
06:01:55 <Lymia> I forgot Scala's default immutable list isn't for indexing
06:02:11 <zzo38> tswett: I am not so good at writing it. Do you know how to write what I meant more clearly?
06:02:54 <tswett> zzo38: as for the first paragraph: I would say "you place" and "you grant the ability" instead of "you agree to place" and "you agree to grant the ability".
06:02:57 <Lymia> There we go, fixed that
06:03:18 <tswett> I think I read once that it was found that "agreeing to release" something under a license is not the same as *actually* releasing it.
06:03:21 <Lymia> Much better now
06:03:26 <Lymia> !zjoust nyuroki >>->>--->++++>>(+)*6>(-)*7>[(<)*8[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*12[>>>>(+)*128.+.]<[>>>>(+)*128.+.]>>>(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*9[(>)*9(+)*128.+.](>)*17(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*8[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*16(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*9[(>)*9(+)*128.+.](>)*17(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*7[(>)*7(+)*36(<)*10[(>)*10(+)*48(<)*12[(>)*12(+)*44.+.]]](>)*15(+)*128.+.]>[<<<<[>>>>(+)*128.+.](>)*12(+)*128.+.]>>>[<<[(>)*8(+)*128.+.]>[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(+)*128.+.]>>[<[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(
06:03:26 <zemhill__> Lymia: error: parse error: starting ( without a matching )
06:03:26 <Lymia> +)*128.+.]>[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(+)*128.+.
06:03:28 <Lymia> :(
06:03:39 <Lymia> !zjoust nyuroki_killer https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e5852992609072879371c67ff209e8d3684feabb.bfjoust
06:03:42 <zemhill__> Lymia.nyuroki_killer: points -31.95, score 4.51, rank 47/47
06:04:10 <Lymia> Pretty sure I have an evaluation bug
06:05:13 <zzo38> tswett: OK I fixed the first paragraph.
06:05:25 <zzo38> How to fix the second paragraph?
06:05:36 <tswett> zzo38: as for the second paragraph, I don't see why you don't just say "If you have any patents in your contributions, you also release your contributions under the GPL3."
06:05:38 <quintopia> Lymia: i think the output may not be what you intended? because if you watch vs preparation length 30 kettle you see it eventually stops going back to its own flag and instead goes somewhere a few cells out? or is that intentional?
06:05:49 <Lymia> That's a fixed bug
06:06:09 <Lymia> or, huh.
06:06:13 <Lymia> Maybe.
06:06:26 <Lymia> I don't see how it could bug like that, unless somehow it failed to track it's own data pointer
06:07:51 <Lymia> oh!
06:07:57 <Lymia> quintopia, it's probably actually an detection failure.
06:08:05 <Lymia> I'm using [] for if/else
06:08:13 <Lymia> And it probably looped back, which isn't supposed to happen.
06:08:18 <zzo38> tswett: I intend this patent license is usable even if the code remains public-domain/CC0 or they make derivative works that may be license by BSD or MIT license or Apache license and not only limited to GPL3, but so that the patent license does not prohibit anything that is prohibited by GPL3.
06:09:27 <tswett> With dual licensing, the permissions add together.
06:09:33 <zzo38> But if they want to license the patent in such a way that it cannot be used in proprietary software, that is OK and should not be impacted by this agreement. (I actually think that patent law should be abolished entirely, but such agreements obviously don't change the law.)
06:09:52 <tswett> If your contributors release everything under both CC0 and GPL3, then people will be allowed to use it as if it were only released under CC0.
06:11:24 <Lymia> !zjoust nyuroki_killer <
06:11:24 <zemhill__> Lymia.nyuroki_killer: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--)
06:11:25 <quintopia> Lymia: yeah i agree. it happened right after this: (27>)27(8+)8(27<)27(27>)27+++++..]
06:11:27 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/7bf4c61c499b562017d03669b7c12e853fb538e4.bfjoust
06:11:31 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 44.05, score 498.13, rank 1/47
06:11:44 <quintopia> Lymia: so you should probably get rid of any brackets ;)
06:12:06 <Lymia> ais clearly likes some program contruct that screws with my code.
06:12:12 <Lymia> !zjoust test <
06:12:13 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
06:12:17 <Lymia> (Also)
06:12:25 <Lymia> (It runs in 60 seconds now, opps)
06:12:40 <Lymia> (The Seq->IndexedSeq was my problem)
06:12:57 <quintopia> Lymia: said "program construct" is locks i warrant
06:13:25 <Lymia> It *shouldn't* actually get locked.
06:13:34 <Lymia> It seems to be failing at detecting the program at all.
06:13:38 <quintopia> esp. triplocks on multiple cells simultaneously
06:13:43 <Lymia> Which means something wrong with the VM
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06:21:28 <\oren\> http://i.imgur.com/TsBLIhA.gifv
06:29:09 <alercah> XD that last one
06:29:43 <zzo38> tswett: Yes I know that, but I would insist that any patent license is also usable according to the specifications of GPL3 even if they are using it only under CC0 or any other GPL-compatible license.
06:30:34 <zzo38> Will what you suggested work for this case?
06:35:23 <tswett> Well, that's a good question.
06:35:56 <tswett> If your contributors dual-license under CC0 and GPL3, then people will certainly be able to "use the patent license according to the specifications of GPL3".
06:36:17 <tswett> But they won't be able to use the patent license in violation of the GPL3.
06:36:30 <zzo38> That is OK
06:36:56 <zzo38> As long as the patent license can be used even if the software is not licensed under GPL3.
06:39:23 <alercah> zzo38: what do you mean "can be used"?
06:39:38 <alercah> Do you wish to require people who modify your software to license any related patents?
06:39:48 <alercah> if so, a dual-license will not achieve that objective
06:40:00 <zzo38> No. I intend they can use it for free even if they do not license it
06:40:12 <alercah> I do not think we are talking about the same thing
06:40:28 <alercah> Let's suppose I am someone who modifies your software.
06:40:37 <alercah> Who owns the patent you are referring to? Me or you
06:41:00 <zzo38> Neither me nor you; it is someone who contributed code to my project.
06:42:06 <alercah> Ok. So you want people who contribute to your project to issue a patent license, but if they distribute a modified version themselves they do not have to?
06:42:26 <zzo38> Now I am confused too.
06:43:14 <alercah> Ok, let's say you release version 1.0 of your program.
06:43:14 <zzo38> Perhaps I should just mention that they have to agree that everyone has a perpetual non-revocable royalty-free patent license to use the relevant patents and that they are not allowed to sue anyone over these patents.
06:43:20 <zzo38> That would be simpler, I think.
06:43:40 <zzo38> (If someone objects, they could file a ticket and then perhaps it could be changed.)
06:43:42 <alercah> tswett submits a patch which is included in v1.1
06:43:50 <alercah> I use v1.1
06:43:57 <alercah> you want to make it so that tswett can't sue me?
06:44:49 <tswett> zzo38: uh, lemme see if I can clarify here...
06:44:49 <zzo38> Yes. I intend that tswett can't sue you, even if you use the same patented stuff in other free-software/open-source code (such as that based on v1.0 instead of v1.1, for example).
06:45:14 <alercah> zzo38: but now if tswett makes a fork
06:45:17 <tswett> No... I don't really know what you're asking.
06:45:27 <alercah> and I use the fork in a way he doesn't like
06:45:44 <alercah> do you want to stop him from suing me then? or only when it's your "official" version?
06:46:03 <zzo38> I intend such fork still you have the license for any patents used in that one that are also used in the official version.
06:46:21 <zzo38> And therefore still they cannot sue you
06:46:55 <alercah> but what if the patents are not included in the official version?
06:47:48 <zzo38> Then it is irrelevant as it does not seem to be in the scope of contribution agreement.
06:48:28 <zzo38> (I would want to still not make them to sue you, but I cannot alter the laws and that is outside of the scope of the agreement anyways, so it doesn't seem right to put it in.)
06:49:54 <alercah> in that case, yeah, you want CC0 licensing with a contribution agreement that states that you offer a patent license
06:50:08 <alercah> *that the contributor offers a patent license
06:50:33 <alercah> you could probably add a note to the license indicating that all contributors have agreed to license their patents as described
06:52:22 <zzo38> If I altered the license then it would not be the CC0 license.
06:53:22 <alercah> you are not altering the copyright license
06:53:41 <alercah> but adding a patent license
06:53:49 <alercah> or more accurately
06:54:00 <alercah> drawing the user's attention to an extant patent license
06:54:13 <zzo38> O, OK
06:58:57 <Lymia> quintopia, anyway, yeah.
06:59:18 <Lymia> Now that I'm using an actual array instead of a linked list (the nasty part about collections libraries. :()
06:59:23 <Lymia> It runs in 1 minute instead of 2 days. :D
07:07:39 <zzo38> Is this better now? http://sprunge.us/WKZW
07:08:57 <zzo38> A trademark agreement also might be needed which specifies that if your contribution includes anything that is trademarked, that such trademarks can be used for compatibility purposes. Is this already implied by trademark law anyways though? I would think it is but I am unsure.
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07:09:44 <tswett> I think you probably don't have to worry about trademark.
07:10:23 <zzo38> Is the patent license better now?
07:10:32 <tswett> Fair use for trademark is very broad. "Coca-Cola" is a trademark, but I can still say it in IRC, write a book about Coca-Cola, make a YouTube video where I sing a song about Coca-Cola...
07:11:25 <tswett> The only thing I'm prohibited from doing is make people think I'm providing a Coca-Cola product or service, or otherwise representing the Coca-Cola brand in any way.
07:12:26 <tswett> I can even say "Coca-Cola" in an advertisement for a competing soft drink, as long as the ad makes it clear that the soft drink is not a Coca-Cola product.
07:13:22 <zzo38> I think that ReactOS has "Microsoft" in some parts of the registry for compatibility purposes, and a GameBoy cartridge can include the Nintendo logo for compatibility with GameBoy; these are what I meant by, ensure it can be used for compatibility purposes.
07:13:46 <tswett> That's definitely allowed under fair use.
07:14:07 <zzo38> OK, then I do not need to add a trademark license to this agreement.
07:15:00 <zzo38> But, is the patent license better now?
07:15:57 <tswett> Yes, I think I like it. I'm no lawyer, of course. There's just one change I suggest.
07:16:11 <zzo38> OK, what change do you suggest?
07:16:12 <tswett> Change "multiple tiers" to "an unlimited number of tiers".
07:18:22 <zzo38> I took everything from "perpetual" to "otherwise transfer" (inclusive) from another contribution agreement (and it seems similar to many things I have seen before too), although I will change that, as it doesn't seem a problem to change that.
07:19:35 <zzo38> (All words surrounding that part are my own)
07:25:47 <zzo38> Now I have fixed it http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/info/684ffedc2a64e609 http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/info/e71ea80bbdcb339b
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10:00:47 * oerjan notes DatCodingGuy introduced himself :P
10:02:17 <oerjan> we might end up with a tradition here
10:05:17 <int-e> . o O ( I am, what else do you need to know? ~~~~ )
10:06:26 <oerjan> indeed, that is sufficient
10:07:07 <oerjan> i note the filter caught another type of spammer.
10:08:32 <int-e> I wonder how long this will hold.
10:08:40 <oerjan> and also seems to have caught a legitimate user who happened not to be logged in
10:08:43 <Taneb> Why are we being targeted? It's hardly a high traffic wiki
10:08:57 <oerjan> Taneb: i assume they're targeting everyone
10:09:05 <int-e> Same here.
10:09:46 <oerjan> the new system is still based on the assumption that, other than captcha solvers, we're not _specifically_ targeted.
10:10:35 <int-e> or perhaps they target wikis with between 500 and 5000 articles; wikis large enough to carry weight in a search engine but so small that they may be unmaintained.
10:10:50 <oerjan> hm
10:11:02 <int-e> (I pulled those numbers out of a hat)
10:11:27 <int-e> (Just making sure that 1071 is included in the range)
10:11:32 * oerjan remembers the mess that was the complexity Zoo wiki last he checked.
10:11:46 <oerjan> basically, it looks fine... but dont try the Random page button.
10:12:22 <oerjan> they had not cleaned up spam created pages at _all_ - but made sure nothing important linked to them.
10:12:48 <int-e> when did we reach the 1k mark anyway?
10:12:58 <int-e> uh, never mind
10:13:08 <int-e> 1757 is the number I should be looking at.
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10:14:44 <oerjan> "There are 5,742 registered users, but most of them are spambots."
10:15:16 <oerjan> no one claim we don't have self-irony.
10:15:31 <int-e> huh, it says 5738 here. oh perhaps because I'm not logged in and seeing a cached version
10:16:07 <int-e> yup, logging in makes a difference
10:17:03 <oerjan> hm, the complexity zoo random button seems to give proper pages now. although i had to press it twice for some reason.
10:17:54 <oerjan> looks a bit skewed, i keep getting the main page.
10:20:52 <int-e> hmm, what happens if you weight the pages by number of visits...
10:22:38 <oerjan> maybe.
10:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49624&oldid=49622 * Oerjan * (+9) Add "external" because everyone's been adding internal ones anyway
10:37:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49625&oldid=49617 * Oerjan * (+102) Add something for old users forgetting to log in
10:39:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49626&oldid=49625 * Oerjan * (+0) apparently that's not allowed
11:05:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49627&oldid=49612 * Primo * (+171) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */
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15:32:07 <nortti> I've been trying to think of a faster algorithm for greater-than comparison of von-neuman-index encoded natural numbers (that might not be the correct term, it was used in setbang posts but I was unable to find same description under that name elsewhere)
15:33:16 <nortti> basically, von-neuman-index encoding works by representing a number as the set of two's exponents that added up make the number
15:33:37 <nortti> and this is applied recursively
15:34:20 <nortti> I(∅) = 0 I({a, b, c, …}) = 2^I(a) + 2^I(b) + 2^I(c) + …
15:35:41 <nortti> currently, to determine if a > b, I first remove the intersection of the two sets from both (as this is equivalent to substraction, will not change the result of a > b)
15:36:15 <nortti> then, if a is ∅, it's false, and if a is not ∅ but b is ∅, it's true
15:37:44 <nortti> if both a and b are not ∅, I iterate through elements in a, looking for element e_a in a such that for any element e_b in b, e_a > e_b
15:38:06 <nortti> if I find such an element, a is greater than b
15:40:24 <nortti> this is basically removing bits both a and b have, and then seeing which one has higher highest-order-bit. as bits shared by both are removed, one of them is bound to have a higher one. and since 2^(n+1) > sum_{i=0}^n 2^n, that one is larger
15:41:26 <nortti> however, the algo is pretty bad runtimewise, recursively calling itself N(a) * N(b) times in the worst case
15:44:27 <myname> i'd try unifying stuff, but that probably won't do much to the runtime
15:44:46 <nortti> unifying?
15:45:12 <myname> how do younintersect
15:45:39 <myname> the thing is, I({a,b}) = I({c,d}) isn't it?
15:46:09 <myname> as long as a,b,c,d are empty sets, that is
15:46:38 <nortti> it's a set. it can only contain one empty set
15:46:57 <myname> ah
15:48:01 <myname> still, how do you intersect?
15:48:16 <nortti> I take the insersection of two sets
15:48:37 <myname> well yeah, but how do you do it on an algorithmical level
15:48:59 <myname> since the sets can be arbitrarily deep, solving intersection should be as hard as solving >
15:49:07 <nortti> I'm currently implementing this with python and frozenset()
15:49:30 <nortti> which aiui uses hashing
15:49:56 <nortti> so intersection is just taking the hashes the two sets have in common
15:50:05 <myname> okay
15:56:52 <Lymia> buh
15:56:57 <Lymia> how
15:56:58 <Lymia> why
15:57:45 <Lymia> What'd I change, why is this code vulnerable to locks now
15:57:54 <Lymia> Or I assume that's what's happening anyway
16:08:53 <int-e> your newbie mode got turned off?
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16:18:16 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/72208c9952fe382088b2ef34880927ab5570eec7.bfjoust
16:18:19 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -10.31, score 12.81, rank 47/47 (--)
16:18:25 <Lymia> waaa
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16:20:26 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/50dff13fa4ddace578da97e7aa9501ae547d8d45.bfjoust
16:20:29 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -40.64, score 1.30, rank 47/47 (--)
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16:27:10 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/50dff13fa4ddace578da97e7aa9501ae547d8d45.bfjoust
16:27:12 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -40.64, score 1.30, rank 47/47 (--)
16:35:32 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/23cb931b70e702782a0fccc21ba6ff0d573060b7.bfjoust
16:35:36 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -39.64, score 1.54, rank 47/47 (--)
16:38:26 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/759dd7055ef7e14415bc676541d74a6d4296a94c.bfjoust
16:38:28 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -31.88, score 4.34, rank 47/47 (--)
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16:54:12 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/7cee2bfbba25d9d41fc2c81c04e5c86c15eaf362.bfjoust
16:54:14 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -31.45, score 4.48, rank 47/47 (--)
16:54:27 <Lymia> There we go
17:02:10 <Taneb> Are there any languages which parse reals differently depending on locale
17:02:33 <Taneb> Like, with a continental Europe locale 3,1415 would be roughly pi?
17:03:38 <FireFly> Does Excel count?
17:03:55 <FireFly> it also changes function names depending on locale, for extra fun
17:04:22 <ais523> Taneb: most languages do that if you turn locale handling on
17:04:24 <ais523> C, for example
17:04:27 <ais523> however it is off by default in C
17:04:53 <ais523> (but it's a global setting so it's not unheard of for someone other part of the code to turn it on by mistake)
17:05:28 <FireFly> Err, what?
17:05:35 <FireFly> Oh, I was assuming in source code
17:05:47 <FireFly> and not functions parsing/prettyprinting reals
17:06:43 <ais523> oh
17:06:51 <ais523> in that case the language parser would have to be /really/ screwed up
17:07:29 <ais523> fwiw this sort of thing is the reason OpenOffice Calc uses ; as an argument separator
17:09:55 <Taneb> Yeah, I meant source code
17:13:24 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/ad30e6efef150681ddf2497c6e820bb205521d20.bfjoust
17:13:26 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points 43.98, score 507.17, rank 1/47 (+46)
17:13:57 <Lymia> !zjoust test <
17:13:58 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
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17:35:45 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/6bc22d8bc2f8b76f4f708d003266bc5227db0118.bfjoust
17:35:47 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.07, score 734.29, rank 1/47
17:36:20 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki <
17:36:20 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
17:43:35 <quintopia> Lymia: what did you fix?
17:44:03 <Lymia> VM errors
17:44:26 <quintopia> what's left to fix?
17:44:52 <Lymia> ....
17:44:53 <Lymia> wait wtf
17:44:57 <Lymia> This might be parsing
17:45:33 <Lymia> !zjoust >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1
17:45:33 <zemhill__> Lymia: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
17:45:38 <Lymia> !zjoust wtf >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1
17:45:39 <zemhill__> Lymia.wtf: points -36.29, score 1.92, rank 47/47
17:46:17 <Lymia> !zjoust wtf >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1
17:46:18 <zemhill__> Lymia.wtf: points -36.29, score 1.92, rank 47/47 (--)
17:46:42 <Lymia> oh
17:46:49 <Lymia> I found a egojsout bug
17:47:43 <Lymia> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
17:49:09 <Lymia> Who develops egojsout?
17:49:19 <Lymia> gregor
17:49:20 <Lymia> great
17:53:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49628&oldid=49006 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-12) Changed link and number.
17:58:04 <fizzie> Lymia: You know there's a !ztest as well.
17:59:42 <Lymia> fizzie, I need the full breakdown. :c
18:00:29 <Lymia> fizzie, anyway: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
18:00:40 <Lymia> bfjsout bug if you can fix it
18:00:56 <Lymia> ls
18:00:58 <Lymia> Er
18:01:00 <Lymia> !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/cec411b5c549c0a1517e4dbb5a364081e6b1fc7a.bfjoust
18:01:02 <zemhill__> Lymia.test: points -29.02, score 3.91, rank 47/47
18:01:27 <Lymia> great
18:01:30 <Lymia> and now it fails to reveal the bug
18:01:30 <Lymia> urgh
18:06:20 <Lymia> greeeaaat
18:06:24 <Lymia> It's ({}) related
18:10:30 <Lymia> Bytecode looks right
18:10:31 <Lymia> so, uh
18:19:49 <Lymia> !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e3d7a6d47f16e0a6c1d4dd3bba2d0d0031f193ae.bfjoust
18:19:51 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.07, score 734.29, rank 1/47
18:20:11 <Lymia> !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/4e162d8368346b0c42c209e2fbcef831e0fb005a.bfjoust
18:20:14 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.83, score 999.98, rank 1/47
18:20:21 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/4e162d8368346b0c42c209e2fbcef831e0fb005a.bfjoust
18:20:22 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 45.83, score 999.98, rank 1/47
18:20:48 <Lymia> huh
18:20:58 <Lymia> waterfall3 survives, huh
18:21:25 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki <
18:21:26 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46)
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18:22:12 <Lymia> ais523, your use of advanced programming techniques continues to be a pain the rear for me.
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18:23:38 <APic> Lymia: What would You do to make it less painfully?
18:25:28 <ais523> Lymia: in what respect? BF Joust compression?
18:26:20 -!- Zarutian has joined.
18:26:28 <Lymia> I don't know.
18:26:35 <Lymia> waterfall3 doesn't process properly in my VM
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18:26:40 <Lymia> And I have no idea what's left to cause problems.
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18:27:48 <ais523> you could try looking at a trace of how the program runs and comparing it to a trace produced by your VM
18:27:51 <ais523> waterfall3 has a ton of cases
18:28:04 <ais523> so it's not easy to guess which one's causing the problem, initially
18:28:30 <ais523> is kiseki built with a counter-everything algorithm?
18:28:34 <ais523> or is it juts really good?
18:29:02 <Lymia> It's autogenerated to counter everything.
18:29:40 <ais523> hmm, this might actually be the end of BF Joust in this case
18:29:48 <ais523> because it's likely to be trivial to beat by a newly written program
18:30:00 <ais523> the original version of BF Joust kept the source code secret, at least for a while
18:30:03 <ais523> to avoid this sort of countering
18:31:49 <Lymia> .... wat
18:31:52 <Lymia> waterfall3 just
18:31:57 <Lymia> Randomly breaks a lock under my VM
18:32:11 <Lymia> [] exits for no reason
18:34:12 <Lymia> oh
18:34:15 <Lymia> Compilation error
18:35:21 <Lymia> well
18:35:32 <Lymia> That was the dumbest bug possible
18:35:44 <Lymia> I had a mistaken AST manipulation that transformed [] into nothing.
18:35:58 <int-e> now that sounds useful.
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18:37:51 <hppavilion[1]> I watched a movie called "The Invention of Lying" the other day
18:37:54 <hppavilion[1]> I loved it so much
18:37:59 <hppavilion[1]> Then I realized it's a romantic comedy
18:38:02 <hppavilion[1]> And I was sad
18:38:48 <myname> does anybody know if ratings in the google play store are somehow filtered or are germans really the only people complaining about stuff not being translated for them?
18:39:20 <Lymia> !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/32f5753d36c979c4b0ca5aa0dba8931b5cd9dc9b.bfjoust
18:39:21 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47 (+46)
18:40:07 <ais523> Lymia: you could do with applying an extra level of RLE to kiseki output
18:40:09 <ais523> it'd make it easier to read
18:40:38 <ais523> atm it only seems to RLE single commands rather than strings of them
18:42:54 <ais523> that said, I've proved that there's a set of 768 programs such that it's impossible to beat all of them on all tape lengths with the same program
18:43:26 <Lymia> Good luck getting them on a hill
18:43:33 <ais523> indeed!
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18:44:57 <ais523> also I'm not 100% sure the proof was correct but I can't remember the details
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18:57:16 <fizzie> Huh, 999.98.
18:58:27 <Lymia> Let me build a new version
18:58:32 <Lymia> And see if that's because I'm missing someone
18:58:43 <fizzie> Did you replace it with < offscreen? Because the web page's showing it as < for me.
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18:59:54 <fizzie> (Welp, need to dinner-away anyway.)
19:01:05 <quintopia> fizzie: this is weird. this page http://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown/#ais523.basic_attack says "quintopia_brachiation wins" but when you view in the graphical interpreter, it shows the other winning overwhelmingly. what's the deal?
19:01:16 <oerjan> fizzie: ARGH
19:01:27 <oerjan> why do people leave just when i want to say something to them
19:01:38 <oerjan> (answer: karma)
19:01:49 <oerjan> s/say/discuss/
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19:02:23 <shachaf> Karma for swatting?
19:02:39 <Lymia> quintopia, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
19:02:43 <Lymia> I found a bug in it
19:02:54 <Lymia> It treats (x)*-1 as (x-)*-1 apparently
19:02:58 * oerjan is pondering how to make the link in ais523's new filter's error message open in a new tab/window, and sadly concludes that mediawiki makes that ridiculously complicated and probably needs the LinkTarget extension
19:03:33 <oerjan> (i think it should do that so that people don't accidentally get their edits deleted in a stressful situation)
19:03:40 <ais523> you either need an extention or to rewrite the link using JavaScript
19:03:54 <Lymia> I guess
19:04:03 <Lymia> That's two programming games based on BF I've done bad things to.
19:04:05 <shachaf> whoa, is that the British spelling?
19:04:16 <shachaf> Or is it like intention/intension?
19:04:19 <oerjan> ais523: what it someone doesn't have js enabled?
19:04:34 <oerjan> shachaf: of course not. swatting gives positive karma hth
19:04:34 <ais523> then the link doesn't get rewritten
19:04:38 <Lymia> I'm pretty sure that's a typo
19:04:44 <ais523> the use of JS is a hack in this situation
19:04:54 <ais523> shachaf: was just a typo
19:05:02 <shachaf> Oh. :-(
19:05:03 <ais523> although it's very believable as a real spelling
19:05:21 <shachaf> It was extensionally indistinguishable from an intentional spelling.
19:05:24 <Lymia> !ztest did-i-break-it https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/270c73c713877745c3d670fb8411d462ae82d530.bfjoust
19:05:26 <zemhill__> Lymia.did-i-break-it: points 12.12, score 34.72, rank 5/47
19:05:28 <Lymia> yes
19:06:57 <FireFly> Lymia: which is the other BF-based game?
19:07:19 <Lymia> I didn't really break-break it, but.
19:07:23 <ais523> FukYorBrane is mathematically broken because you can write a program which will always beat all programs that are shorter than it by more than a certain proportion
19:07:34 <ais523> meaning that optimal strategy is to take that program and keep making it longer
19:07:38 <ais523> I never bothered to actually write it though
19:07:50 <Lymia> I found out that in fukyerbrane, @@ lets you set the data pointer
19:07:53 <Lymia> Which is...
19:07:57 <Lymia> Probably not an intentional primitive.
19:08:24 <FireFly> Heh
19:08:38 <ais523> oh, I was using a trick involving defecting and loops
19:08:58 <ais523> in order to teleport the IP faster than the other program's speed of light
19:09:17 <ais523> thus giving you a certain length of time where you were guaranteed to be not interfered with
19:09:21 <myname> how so
19:09:41 <fizzie> quintopia: Yeah, the breakdown + "X wins" message is from the gearlance results, while the game browser is a forked copy of egojsout. They did produce identical results for the hill I started from (comparing the outputs is part of my regression test suite), but I guess something's wrong.
19:09:48 <myname> Lymia: also, what?
19:09:49 <fizzie> (I'm still trying to be away and make dinner.)
19:10:09 <Lymia> fizzie:
19:11:50 <Lymia> .. hrm
19:11:58 <Lymia> Constructing a minimum error case is harder than I thought
19:13:19 <Lymia> ah
19:13:19 <Lymia> http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=ce11b1ce0d71cf74f2fd6db9e8f1c86de0973812&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709
19:13:21 <Lymia> Here you go.
19:13:32 <quintopia> Lymia: neither of those programs use *-1
19:13:44 <Lymia> ?
19:13:49 <Lymia> I found a bug.
19:13:52 <myname> Lymia: how do you use @@?
19:13:54 <Lymia> You might have found another. \o/
19:14:22 <quintopia> Lymia: most likely, but i don't have the gumption to track it down atm
19:14:23 <ais523> "%-1" is a dubious concept as it is
19:15:07 <quintopia> ais523: nah. makes perfect sense. -1 is shorthand for "the maximum allowed number of repetitions"
19:15:23 <quintopia> supposed to be up to the interpreter to figure out what it means
19:15:29 <ais523> I don't like that shorthand because it makes - parse ambiguously
19:15:38 <ais523> although I implemented it in juiced anyway because people keep using it
19:15:53 <quintopia> ais523: fair complaint
19:17:16 <quintopia> ais523: it doesn't actually seem ambiguous though, since - should only appear after * or % in precisely this context. I would consider a * or % not followed by a - or number a syntax error in a bfjoust program
19:17:28 <ais523> yes
19:17:35 <ais523> it's not ambiguous from the point of view of parsing
19:17:40 <ais523> nor really from the point of view of tokenisation
19:17:56 <ais523> but it still feels like it violates the spirit of BF to use the same character for two different things
19:18:08 <quintopia> hence "fair complaint"
19:18:46 <ais523> indeed
19:19:07 <FireFly> could have used some other glyph for it, like _ or something
19:19:18 <FireFly> Hmm
19:20:11 <quintopia> or just not include it, and require programmers to type 1111111111 or something (is that long enough for the average "maximum repetitions"?)
19:21:09 <ais523> 99999 is enough
19:21:31 <ais523> unless you're repeating one character as your entire program
19:21:35 <ais523> in which case you need one extra copy
19:22:26 <quintopia> i'd go with 111111 just because the 1s look cleaner :D
19:26:52 <oerjan> <ais523> also I'm not 100% sure the proof was correct but I can't remember the details <-- didn't we find essentially the same proof
19:26:59 <ais523> could be
19:27:35 <oerjan> `factor 768
19:27:36 <HackEgo> 768: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3
19:28:32 <Lymia> !ztest is-it-working-yet https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d2b103275d0bdd2f3019c20ad2bb4a1cbaf5dfdf.bfjoust
19:28:34 <zemhill__> Lymia.is-it-working-yet: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47
19:28:45 <Lymia> !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d2b103275d0bdd2f3019c20ad2bb4a1cbaf5dfdf.bfjoust
19:28:47 <zemhill__> Lymia.kiseki: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47 (+46)
19:30:58 <oerjan> oh right, _all_ tape lengths. so they just have to work for one.
19:31:42 <oerjan> and you can choose which.
19:33:18 <oerjan> hm would it be possible to reduce the 3 to 2
19:33:29 <Lymia> My defense algorithm isn't good enough to kill the whole hill at once without using brackets. :(
19:33:34 <Lymia> It tries! (but fails and dies)
19:34:38 <oerjan> (as in, do you actually need the programs that don't modify their own flag)
19:38:33 <FreeFull> I've had a cool idea for an esoteric language, but I don't know if someone else has come up with the same thing and implemented it already
19:38:43 <FreeFull> Essentially, it's a language that gets executed "backwards in time"
19:39:18 <FreeFull> So Hello, World! would be something like fn main() { let x = read_line(); assert(x == "Hello, World!"); }
19:39:51 <FreeFull> If something inconsistent happens, the program will terminate with a "paradox"
19:40:14 <FreeFull> Syntax is still undecided
19:41:14 <Lymia> ais523, https://github.com/Lymia/BFJoust-Utils
19:41:18 <Lymia> If you want to look over my generators.
19:41:19 <ais523> FreeFull: WUUI uses a similar principle
19:41:28 <ais523> although to a different end
19:41:34 <Lymia> This is a bit of a hack job
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19:42:41 <FreeFull> The challenge would be getting a language like this to actually do some useful computation, rather than just verify the user's input
19:43:00 <FreeFull> Also I think implementing it will be hard
19:43:19 <ais523> WUUI is easy to implement but very hard to implement efficiently
19:45:23 <FreeFull> fn main() { let a = 0, b = 1; loop *3 { print(a); print(b); a += b; b += a; } } will have the user enter the fibonnacci sequence backwards, otherwise the program terminates with a paradox
19:45:52 <Lymia> What do I even put on BF Joust strategies?
19:45:55 <FreeFull> The individual lines wouldn't be backwards, for convenience
19:45:58 <Lymia> I did get #1 :^)
19:46:47 <FreeFull> With terminal trickery by the end you can even make it look like the program was executed and printed out the fibonacci sequence by itself ;)
19:47:12 <ais523> Lymia: I guess you could just explain that it was found by computer search to beat all existing programs
19:47:55 <Lymia> It ha some semblance of a strategy.
19:48:10 <Lymia> It aggressively distinguishes different programs using []
19:48:26 <Lymia> Then switches between a defense and attack loop to kill stuff off.
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20:14:46 <hppavilion[1]> Statistics breaks things a lot of the time
20:15:25 <quintopia> Lymia: make your program generayor automatically generate a description of its strategy
20:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if one crime C is considered 1/100th as bad as another crime D, then usually the punishment for D will be 100 times worse than that for C
20:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> But you can make a statistically similar system by, instead of putting people guilty of D in prison for 10 years and people guilty of C in prison for 0.1
20:16:40 <hppavilion[1]> Putting people guilty of D in prison for 10 years always and people guilty of C in prison for 10 years 1% of the time, chosen at random
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20:17:05 <Lymia> quintopia, pff
20:17:12 <Lymia> It does spam output I guess
20:17:15 <Lymia> But that was for debugging
20:18:35 <quintopia> Lymia: make it output meaningful and narrative english sentences. you know, just for fun
20:19:02 <oerjan> just for fun, got it?
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20:23:05 <quintopia> if it's not fun, don't do it.
20:23:20 <quintopia> has anyone written good code while walking on a treadmill?
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22:18:10 <oerjan> oops
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22:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> What's the Ur-Example of Ur-Examples?
22:27:44 <Taneb> Ur
22:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
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22:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> Can I please restructure english with a fully-productive case system and some nice extra tenses
22:37:56 <quintopia> hmm
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22:38:08 <quintopia> nah
22:38:21 <quintopia> english aint that kinda lang
22:38:33 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Fine, I'll rename it
22:38:37 <quintopia> learn some other lang if you need it
22:38:39 <myname> while ypu are at it, add an alphabet that makes itpossible to actually pronouncr words correctly
22:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I'm going to learn german this year, so that's nice
22:39:04 <quintopia> ok
22:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Nah, I don't want to mess with spelling
22:39:25 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody pointed out to me the lack of a past-impossible case and I now need one
22:39:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I might add þ though, maybe
22:40:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Is it possible to simply rebind my keyboard to add letters like that?)
22:40:08 <quintopia> i don't belive you. that couldn't have happened
22:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Past-impossible is for things that were true but now aren't, but where the external facts haven't changed
22:40:38 <hppavilion[1]> Or something
22:40:53 <hppavilion[1]> Like referring to someone who, in the past, did not know the (still-the-same) location of New Jerseey
22:41:10 <hppavilion[1]> You could say "E didn't know where New Jersey was", but that implies that New Jersey isn't there any more
22:41:42 <hppavilion[1]> Or "E didn't know where New Jersey is", but people don't like that
22:41:44 <quintopia> didnt know where new jersey is leaves unanswered whether they know now
22:41:51 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Ah, yes, that too
22:42:26 <Taneb> He didn't know where New Jersey had been going to be
22:42:49 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: No, that implies New Jersey was going to move (and since has), but that he wasn't informed of the new location
22:43:06 <quintopia> how about a tense for things that were true in the past but it is expressly uncertain whether they are currently true
22:43:24 <quintopia> or likewise for the future
22:43:38 <hppavilion[1]> (I want fn+t to be þ and shift+fn+t to be (of course) Þ)
22:43:43 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I was trying for the worst possible avast
22:43:46 <Taneb> Answer
22:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
22:43:56 <FireFly> you could make that work with altgr easily
22:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: That will also be useful
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22:44:10 <FireFly> or well, assuming you're american you could probably just use us-international
22:44:12 <quintopia> i think you just invented a new tense taneb
22:44:55 <hppavilion[1]> I definitely want the Habitual/continuative aspect from AAVE
22:45:05 <hppavilion[1]> ("he be working Tuesdays" is how it is in AAVE)
22:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: No, it's an existing complex tense
22:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: No altgr on mine :/
22:45:53 <FireFly> altgr = right alt
22:45:59 <FireFly> depending on layout
22:46:00 <quintopia> does "he works on tuesdays" not capture the same info?
22:46:48 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#US-International
22:46:57 <myname> hppavilion[1]: you are watching xidnaf?
22:47:18 <myname> quintopia: the example is bad
22:47:27 <myname> quintopia: "he be working" is better
22:47:51 <quintopia> hmm
22:48:17 <myname> he be working = he has a job
22:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yes, but that doesn't generalize
22:48:55 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure what xidnaf is
22:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, wait, s/myname/quintopia/
22:49:40 <myname> xidnaf is a small youtube channel about language stuff
22:50:47 <zzo38> You may also to define your own keyboard layout (how this is done depend what operating system)
22:50:48 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh, right, yeah, I remember
22:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49629&oldid=49624 * Ais523 * (+57) looks like at least one human didn't read the instructions…
22:50:56 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm following him, yes
22:51:47 <zzo38> What layer is changing the name of an object in Magic: the Gathering?
22:52:02 <myname> i am always looking for similar channels
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23:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> . o O ( If I learn DVORAK and change my computer's keyboard layout to it, then nobody will ever be able to use my keyboard if they aren't me )
23:07:35 <FireFly> well, unless they're me
23:08:06 <FireFly> (or other dvorak users obviously)
23:09:40 <zzo38> If you change the labels too then somebody can see that it is not QWERTY layout.
23:09:45 <myname> that's wrong, noone will be able to use any keyboard on your computer, but your keyboard almost anywhere
23:11:52 <hppavilion[1]> Henceforþ, þe sound previously represented wiþ þe digraph "th" shall be written wiþ þ ("þorn"), at least for me
23:12:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm actively making a custom keyboard rebinding to include it wiþ altgr+t (and capital wiþ altgr+shift+t)
23:12:44 <hppavilion[1]> Prepare to be annoyed every time I talk
23:13:45 <tswett> I þink þat's a good idea.
23:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> (I will allow þ to represent boþ voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives)
23:14:00 <myname> hppavilion[1]: we already are
23:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Excellent
23:14:07 <hppavilion[1]> myname: :,(
23:14:25 <hppavilion[1]> Mean.
23:15:02 <tswett> Hey, have a randomly generated etymology or ten.
23:15:05 <tswett> bronchy (n.) Look up broint at Dictionary.com
23:15:05 <tswett> masc. proper name, from Proto-Germanic *brandin (cognates: Gaulish desma, Old Frisian biflie, Old Irish bingane) "to gritter, quirtly, diamon" (cognate with Old Saxon bindre), from dsanque "near with sheeper, drink, chronal, grow," from PIE root *dhan- "to fees-wittle" (see the Anauil). Related: Accommlint.
23:15:58 <myname> i am curious about the etymology of super market
23:16:22 * hppavilion[1] contemplates adding additional letters for sh, ch, and ng
23:16:38 <tswett> corn (n.)
23:16:38 <tswett> 1843, from corn (n.) + head. Related: Contented; contenting.
23:16:43 <hppavilion[1]> (ph will be allowed to live)
23:16:47 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: you should use eth when appropriate methinks
23:16:47 <tswett> Good ol' recursive etymologies.
23:16:57 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: maybe also long s
23:17:00 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: When is eþ appropriate?
23:17:25 <FireFly> _th_e vs. _th_at
23:17:30 <FireFly> I think
23:17:47 <FireFly> wait hm
23:17:50 <myname> hppavilion[1]: https://youtu.be/fPzAABMozs0
23:17:59 <FireFly> _th_e vs wi_th_
23:18:09 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: but you've got a nice letter for "ph". It's ɸ.
23:18:09 <FireFly> ðe and wiþ
23:18:12 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm honestly planning to use þese in school þis year. My teachers can't stop me because rules mwahahahahaha)
23:18:21 <FireFly> are you sure about that
23:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: ...þose are exactly the same in my dialect
23:18:24 <zzo38> What rules are those?
23:18:26 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
23:18:28 <hppavilion[1]> I see
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23:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: "ph" makes þe same sound as "f", so if I want to kill it it'll just be replaced wiþ 'f'
23:19:15 <tswett> Oh yeah.
23:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: About what?
23:19:24 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: that last þ should be ð instead
23:19:27 <FireFly> "My teachers can't stop me because rules"
23:19:34 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: It isn't on my clipboard
23:19:37 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Yes, actually
23:19:38 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: wið regards.
23:19:54 <FireFly> Didn't elliott decide to use long s'es when appropriate for a while?
23:20:01 <FireFly> back in the olden days
23:20:12 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: clipboard? You mean keyboard, no? or is it to µ in its selection of keys?
23:20:14 <tswett> brain (v.)
23:20:14 <tswett> "bolopic late 14c.," 1861, only with a wadmer attention man, "pourness, son of the misses" (c. 1300), supposed to restricted the numble correct the surges in the words for the found intercours from brethed "to throw or for strength" (1560s). Meaning "spitchs of dawn," the first it also in first element and in ambushi (1793). As a variant a allo-ded attested from 1778.
23:20:47 * Zarutian hands hppavilion[1] a π for his troubles
23:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Due to a probably-not-quite-accurate diagnosis of Asperger's by a doctor who seems to have it himself, my teachers have been warned about me, and spelling reform will be noþing for þem
23:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Clipboard; I haven't finished þe new keyboard layout yet, so I'm just hitting ctrl+v every time I need þ
23:22:25 <FireFly> That is sort of evil
23:22:36 <FireFly> and probably not in the spirit of the diagnosis :P
23:22:38 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: wrote a short essay using nothing but old futhark runes. Got it back with comments in red ink, written in same runes
23:22:46 <FireFly> :D
23:22:56 <FireFly> I think nortti would enjoy that
23:23:11 <FireFly> seems like something he'd do, too
23:23:27 <hppavilion[1]> ('o' binds to 'ø', not because I plan to use it for spelling, but because I need to be able to type it for every time I write my name)
23:23:39 <FireFly> Now I'm curious
23:23:54 <FireFly> Hmm
23:24:07 <hppavilion[1]> (Norwegian descent on my faþer's side; last name was anglicized, but I deanglicized it)
23:24:13 <FireFly> I see
23:24:34 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Should I put eþ under my 'd' key? It looks kind of like a 'd'. 't' is taken for þ
23:24:55 <hppavilion[1]> (...googling may become difficult)
23:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, no, it looks like Google corrects 'þ' into 'th' in searches
23:25:55 <olsner> it might be searching for both, but I get lots of thorns
23:26:02 <Zarutian> a bit of a þorny issue sometimes. Specially when diffrenating between Thorlacious and Þórláks
23:26:08 <hppavilion[1]> olsner: Huh. Good enough.
23:26:17 <olsner> `quote þorn
23:26:17 <HackEgo> No output.
23:26:20 <olsner> `quote thorn
23:26:21 <HackEgo> No output.
23:26:25 <FireFly> there, now I can type ſ and µ
23:26:28 <FireFly> much better
23:26:39 <olsner> did we wipe the quotes or something?
23:26:46 <Zarutian> ∫o whot?
23:27:25 <myname> what's the point in replacing a symbol with another one
23:27:41 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, relevant 'er's will also be reversed, and 'u' will be used as intended in choice 'or' words. 'defence' over 'defense', etc.)
23:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> myname: ...I want to say some noble, spelling reform-related cause
23:28:00 <FireFly> myname: what are you thinking of?
23:28:06 <Zarutian> myname: I do not know but then I do not live at Pretentiusstraße
23:28:10 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i meant Zarutian
23:28:17 <hppavilion[1]> But it's really just that I like þ as a letter and would prefer to try and get it reinstated into english
23:28:18 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
23:28:49 <hppavilion[1]> Damn, searching for "þeater" gives me non-english results
23:28:56 <myname> Zarutian: it didn't make sense in german either, i think. except for resultung in the ß diphtong
23:29:01 <hppavilion[1]> Wonder if there's a way to coax google to modify my searches...
23:29:16 <tswett> `unidecode ∫
23:29:17 <HackEgo> ​[U+222B INTEGRAL]
23:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: I was always under the impression ∫ was stylistic, not a distinct letter (like þe difference between single- and double-story 'a' and 'g')
23:30:13 <hppavilion[1]> Crap, I said 'there'
23:30:14 <hppavilion[1]> :(
23:30:18 <hppavilion[1]> I'll figure it out someday
23:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> (My homestuck friends will love this...)
23:30:57 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it wasn't a distinct letter
23:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Exactly
23:31:31 <myname> it is basically the same as s, but you write it if not at the beginning of a syllable
23:32:22 <FireFly> you mean ſ I think, not ∫
23:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> (Maybe I could make a Firefox extension þat turns 'þ' into 'th' in a search?)
23:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering turning 'ng' to 'ŋ' as well; should I?
23:33:15 <hppavilion[1]> It looks good
23:33:25 <myname> or you could as well just stop writing shitty
23:34:35 <myname> i do agree that english should be reformed somehow, but just randomly exchange stuff like you feel like it just makes it harder for anyone to communicate with you
23:35:10 <myname> i won't stop you, but if it gets too obscure, i won't take the time to read what you are trying to say
23:35:27 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah, I don't plan to make it too obscure
23:36:07 <myname> you just named like 4 symbols or so ypu want to introduce and to force others to remember
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23:38:18 <hppavilion[1]> Yay! There's even Ezh (Ʒ/ʒ)
23:38:30 <FireFly> You should just write IPA
23:39:22 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: ...yeah, ðat's kind of where ðis is headed, isn't it?
23:39:35 <FireFly> sure seems so
23:40:26 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I'll stop after I have a ch; ðat's ðe last one I need
23:40:40 <olsner> you should also start using wynn and yogh
23:42:17 <tswett> crowting/(c.)
23:42:17 <tswett> 1530s, "a downs," but the meaning "squind found rubles which is taken as the name by intrograte into, drink falsion," from croby (n.).
23:42:24 <tswett> "crowting/" is an interesting word.
23:42:31 <tswett> Apparently its part of speech is "century".
23:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> olsner: Already a letter for ðat
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23:44:24 <hppavilion[1]> (I like how ðat looks like "dat")
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23:47:12 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Is ðere any old or middle-engliʃ letter for "ch"?
23:47:23 <FireFly> no idea
23:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> Esperanto appears to use ĉ
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23:49:23 <myname> we should all speak lojban
23:49:32 <myname> such a great language
23:50:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Agreed, but I doubt ðat my school would be able to find a translator
23:51:09 <hppavilion[1]> (for more utilitarian purposes, I'm adding € as well)
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