00:00:38 <\oren\_> (technically, I arrived a while ago but we had some errands before checkin at the hotel) 00:01:08 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\. 00:05:31 How uh confusing 00:05:35 I know someone there 00:06:32 is Kelowna smaller or larger than Hexham? 00:07:01 <\oren\> Kelowna has a very small runway, which we barely stopped before the end of 00:08:04 Apparently Kelowna is about 10× as big as Hexham 00:08:11 so I guess it's not that much of a coincidence 00:08:17 relatively speaking 00:12:05 Hum. 00:12:36 \oren\: vacation? conference? 00:15:33 @metar EGLL 00:15:33 EGLL 202250Z AUTO 23015KT 9999 BKN016 16/13 Q1009 TEMPO -SHRA BKN014 00:31:50 @metar ESSB 00:31:50 ESSB 202320Z AUTO 10004KT 9999 BKN061/// BKN088/// OVC120/// 16/14 Q1014 00:31:55 slashes, eh 00:36:34 I knew someone there. 00:37:26 <\oren\> alercah: my uncle's wedding 01:05:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 01:05:35 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined. 01:06:40 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:12:01 I'm surprised nobody ever invented a Lunacentric model of the universe 01:12:45 maybe because you can actually see with your bare eyes that this is wrong 01:13:28 win 27 01:13:30 :( 01:13:52 alt+j is way better 01:14:15 Not in my irssi. 01:14:24 define it 01:14:42 you can easily define itnup to 36 01:16:17 What, and stop winning? 01:16:31 I don't see how I would define it up to 36. 01:17:02 myname: How? I can't think of a way 01:17:06 1 to 0 and a to z (the later in order of appearance on your keyboard layout" 01:17:25 last time.i checked, 10+26 was 36 01:18:30 But Alt-a already means "jump to window with activity". 01:18:46 Alt-b and alt-f mean jump backward and forward by a word 01:18:48 i don't see how that's useful 01:18:57 Alt-a is the most useful of all the keys. 01:19:15 Alt-d means delete a word. 01:19:19 how so? i see which window has activities and jump to it directly 01:19:23 Maybe I could rebind a few others to go past 19, though. 01:25:13 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 01:25:43 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined. 01:30:00 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49622&oldid=49620 * DatCodingGuy * (+389) /* Introductions */ 01:55:22 ooh, I think it's working! 01:55:28 (that's a legitimate user, almost certainly) 01:56:13 although, hmm, they somehow found it without the message telling them to 01:56:35 it's not their first edit 01:56:41 I guess they saw it in recent changes and decided to join the party 02:15:28 ais523: Maybe instead of making mechanisms so spammers can't spam, we should make an example out of people who do 02:15:43 * hppavilion[1] looks up medieval torture methods 02:19:27 Hm... 02:19:44 I think I'll go through MLP:FiM and extract every usage of teleportation in the series 02:26:09 since when was teleportaton a medieval torture method? 02:52:32 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:12:51 [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49623&oldid=49592 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+0) 03:20:45 -!- augur has joined. 03:28:12 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:33:35 ais523: Those were two unrelated thoughts separated by nearly 5 minutes of intermittent time 03:34:07 ais523: But since you have to ask, you can teleport sharp objects into the liver 04:05:27 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:07:13 -!- heroux has joined. 04:12:54 -!- ais523 has quit. 04:18:07 * Sgeo wonders if he should try FTL 04:18:14 * Sgeo is vaguely aware that ais523 likes it 04:19:10 BUt seeing the video just makes me want to play Space Station 13 04:20:03 hppavilion[1]: what evidence is there that the moon is the center of everything? 04:20:20 Classically, all heavy things tend to move towards the earth, so presumably the earth is the center of everything. 04:20:24 tswett: What evidence is there that the earth is? 04:21:09 The heavy-things-move-towards-earth thing. 04:21:28 tswett: The lunacentric model wouldn't exist because someone just thought of it; it would either be cultural or as a parodical response to either geocentrists or heliocentrists 04:21:38 Ah. 04:21:59 Probably something made around when heliocentrism was proposed, as a "yeah, that's just as absurd as this other thing" 04:23:56 Nyow. 04:24:17 I just read this post on the MIRI blog. 04:24:41 It posits an interesting type of machine: the "reflective oracle". 04:24:54 Lemme talk about how the reflective oracle works. 04:26:12 A "reflective oracle machine", or ROM, is a Turing machine that is capable of performing a special operation, the reflective oracle operation. 04:27:13 The reflective oracle operation attempts to answer this question: "Would a reflective oracle machine halt if given such-and-such input?" 04:27:40 Now, reflective oracle machines are probabilistic, so the reflective oracle operation can't give the correct answer all of the time. 04:27:45 But here's what it does do. 04:28:18 If there's MORE than a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, it says "yes". 04:28:31 If there's LESS than a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, it says "no". 04:28:50 And finally, if there's EXACTLY a 50% chance that a ROM would halt given the input, then the result is unspecified. 04:29:58 "abjad" is a stupid word 04:30:06 It could always be yes, it could always be no, or it could be random. 04:30:13 Clearly, it should be called an "lphbt" 04:39:58 I'm gonna write up an Esolang page describing a language that takes advantage of this. 04:40:22 This is the blog post, by the way. https://intelligence.org/2016/06/30/grain-of-truth/ 04:41:45 The name I'm going to give it is the most obvious abbreviation of the phrase "Brainfuck Reflective Oracle Machine". 04:49:43 -!- augur has joined. 04:55:40 -!- zzo38 has joined. 05:04:33 -!- newsham has joined. 05:17:17 How do I add the proper text into a contributing agreement to ensure that any patents will be freely usable and will be usable with GPL-compatible terms, even though the contribution is in the public domain? 05:19:38 tswett, bah, unlike the "true/false/no answer" halting oracle, there's no trivial implementation I think 05:19:51 zzo38: any patents on what? 05:20:37 Patents on the contributed code. 05:21:10 On the code that *you* contribute? You don't need to say anything; other people can't patent stuff that you invented. 05:21:43 The agreement is for if anyone contribute something, not just myself 05:23:04 If anyone contributes something to what? A project that you control, or a project someone else controls? 05:23:12 A project that I control. 05:25:08 I have been asked to make a contribution agreement, and part of the details about how to do so are specified (the part about copyright), but part about patent is also needed. My intention is that the patent is freely license for use with free-software/open-source without needing any kind of notifications or payments or whatever, and can be used freely by private use, and is compatible with the terms of GPL3. 05:26:33 You could say that each contributor must release their contribution into the public domain AND release it under the GPL3. 05:38:44 http://lpaste.net/179185 - someone post this to the wiki thanks. 05:38:51 That seem a bit strange to me isn't it? 05:39:11 Kind of. 05:39:40 The GPL3 is primarily a copyright license, and of course the copyright provisions of the license are redundant with being in the public domain. 05:39:45 But it's a patent license too. 05:40:00 So I feel like this is probably your easiest, simplest, and most effective option. 05:40:03 it is not a patent license 05:40:15 it is a coppyright license that, as a condition of copying, requires a patent license 05:40:58 It says: "Each contributor grants you a non-exclusive, worldwide, royalty-free patent license ..." 05:41:46 !bfjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust 05:41:51 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust 05:41:55 Lymia.test: points 41.67, score 302.42, rank 1/47 (+46) 05:41:59 It seems pretty clear that if I say "I'm releasing such-and-such under the GPL3", that means I'm granting a patent license. 05:42:22 Annoying. 05:42:38 Lymia: annoying to be winning? 05:42:52 It's not working as intended. :( 05:44:10 !bfjoust test < 05:44:15 !zjoust test < 05:44:16 Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 05:44:23 alercah: Yes, I know that, and that is how I am confuse to try to figure out how it is to do! 05:45:03 Lymia: are you trying to beat everything on the hill at every length and polarity 05:45:07 yes 05:45:17 That took 2 days to compute, and it didn't even work. 05:45:18 :( 05:45:46 well i'll be appreciative if you do. i can strike it off my long-term to-do list 05:45:57 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/935e6a28b8c29d6ea4ffb940ec7dc9a7a387ae59.bfjoust 05:46:01 Lymia.test: points 41.67, score 302.42, rank 1/47 (+46) 05:46:09 zzo38: so to start with, you are Canadian, there is no concept of "public domain" 05:46:29 (except by expiration of copyright) 05:46:46 It actually fall back to CC0 anyways, because now I have put that in as someone's suggestion. 05:47:02 if you wish to ensure that no one can add patent encumberance to your code, you need to use copyleft 05:47:24 !zjoust test < 05:47:25 Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 05:47:28 300 KB though 05:47:29 Not bad 05:47:39 because otherwise your license could be changed when a third party distributes it 05:48:32 I only wish to ensure that nobody contributes patent encumbered code to the main repository for my program. 05:48:40 If someone makes their own copy, they can do what they want with it. 05:49:12 Lymia: although i would appreciate it more if you could please avoid the use of any brackets? and also call the result "look_ma_no_brackets"? 05:50:14 .... I'm not 100% sure that's possible. 05:50:15 hmm 05:50:38 The ultimate goal is to have a big list of bots *not* on the hill. 05:51:01 And distinguish as many of them as possible to go into a "general purpose" algorithm so it still beats bots that aren't known. 05:51:02 well...there comes a certain number of bots where it isn't possible 05:52:18 http://pastebin.com/6sXxNmi5 05:52:19 hmm 05:52:48 If someone make the software proprietary then I don't care, but I do intend to stop them from suing anyone (under patent law) that does not make the software proprietary. And that they will agree to license the patents in a way compatible with GPL3, too. 05:53:12 probably easiest to just use GPLv3 then 05:53:22 Now for debugging. 05:53:34 Do I have evaluation errors 05:54:56 Lymia: i wonder why preparation is beating it so badly! 05:55:15 Probably my VM has a bug and doesn't evaluate it correctly 05:55:23 !zjoust 05:55:23 tswett: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation. 05:55:40 looks like a misdetection. it didn't identify the flag at all 05:55:42 hippo_ballerina is simpler, and also seems to be a sore case 05:56:48 quintopia, problem is 05:57:00 That could be because it's evaluating preperation wrong, or because I have some weird issue. 05:57:12 It *should* be impossible for it to generate code that behaves differently from its "botting" 05:57:13 But. 05:57:27 If the VM has a bug, it will simulate the opponent wrong. 05:57:37 true 05:57:41 also, your vm is slow? 05:58:11 !bfjoust anti-hippo https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/29aa8b4899ac8370e8903634b8f78e7db9b91c84.bfjoust 05:58:13 It's not optimized 05:58:17 !zjoust anti-hippo https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/29aa8b4899ac8370e8903634b8f78e7db9b91c84.bfjoust 05:58:19 Lymia.anti-hippo: points -33.64, score 3.67, rank 47/47 05:59:06 Lymia: I'm so tempted to take your "test" and resubmit it myself. 05:59:28 meanie 05:59:36 I'll just have to submit a bigger better version ;P 05:59:47 That would be kind of dishonest-slash-jerkish of me, though. 05:59:54 This is what I wrote for my contribution agreement is it good? http://sprunge.us/DHTW (the LICENSE file is a copy of the CC0 legal code) 06:00:04 hmmm 06:00:38 quintopia, I'm not actually sure if my VM is slow, actually. 06:00:44 zzo38: no, the second paragraph is unclear. 06:00:51 Or if some programs just have nasty constructs that mess with it. 06:00:59 ... oh fuck 06:01:04 I hope I'm not using linked lists for the bytecode. 06:01:47 oppps 06:01:55 I forgot Scala's default immutable list isn't for indexing 06:02:11 tswett: I am not so good at writing it. Do you know how to write what I meant more clearly? 06:02:54 zzo38: as for the first paragraph: I would say "you place" and "you grant the ability" instead of "you agree to place" and "you agree to grant the ability". 06:02:57 There we go, fixed that 06:03:18 I think I read once that it was found that "agreeing to release" something under a license is not the same as *actually* releasing it. 06:03:21 Much better now 06:03:26 !zjoust nyuroki >>->>--->++++>>(+)*6>(-)*7>[(<)*8[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*12[>>>>(+)*128.+.]<[>>>>(+)*128.+.]>>>(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*9[(>)*9(+)*128.+.](>)*17(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*8[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*16(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*9[(>)*9(+)*128.+.](>)*17(+)*128.+.]>[(<)*7[(>)*7(+)*36(<)*10[(>)*10(+)*48(<)*12[(>)*12(+)*44.+.]]](>)*15(+)*128.+.]>[<<<<[>>>>(+)*128.+.](>)*12(+)*128.+.]>>>[<<[(>)*8(+)*128.+.]>[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(+)*128.+.]>>[<[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9( 06:03:26 Lymia: error: parse error: starting ( without a matching ) 06:03:26 +)*128.+.]>[(>)*8(+)*128.+.](>)*9(+)*128.+. 06:03:28 :( 06:03:39 !zjoust nyuroki_killer https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e5852992609072879371c67ff209e8d3684feabb.bfjoust 06:03:42 Lymia.nyuroki_killer: points -31.95, score 4.51, rank 47/47 06:04:10 Pretty sure I have an evaluation bug 06:05:13 tswett: OK I fixed the first paragraph. 06:05:25 How to fix the second paragraph? 06:05:36 zzo38: as for the second paragraph, I don't see why you don't just say "If you have any patents in your contributions, you also release your contributions under the GPL3." 06:05:38 Lymia: i think the output may not be what you intended? because if you watch vs preparation length 30 kettle you see it eventually stops going back to its own flag and instead goes somewhere a few cells out? or is that intentional? 06:05:49 That's a fixed bug 06:06:09 or, huh. 06:06:13 Maybe. 06:06:26 I don't see how it could bug like that, unless somehow it failed to track it's own data pointer 06:07:51 oh! 06:07:57 quintopia, it's probably actually an detection failure. 06:08:05 I'm using [] for if/else 06:08:13 And it probably looped back, which isn't supposed to happen. 06:08:18 tswett: I intend this patent license is usable even if the code remains public-domain/CC0 or they make derivative works that may be license by BSD or MIT license or Apache license and not only limited to GPL3, but so that the patent license does not prohibit anything that is prohibited by GPL3. 06:09:27 With dual licensing, the permissions add together. 06:09:33 But if they want to license the patent in such a way that it cannot be used in proprietary software, that is OK and should not be impacted by this agreement. (I actually think that patent law should be abolished entirely, but such agreements obviously don't change the law.) 06:09:52 If your contributors release everything under both CC0 and GPL3, then people will be allowed to use it as if it were only released under CC0. 06:11:24 !zjoust nyuroki_killer < 06:11:24 Lymia.nyuroki_killer: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (--) 06:11:25 Lymia: yeah i agree. it happened right after this: (27>)27(8+)8(27<)27(27>)27+++++..] 06:11:27 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/7bf4c61c499b562017d03669b7c12e853fb538e4.bfjoust 06:11:31 Lymia.test: points 44.05, score 498.13, rank 1/47 06:11:44 Lymia: so you should probably get rid of any brackets ;) 06:12:06 ais clearly likes some program contruct that screws with my code. 06:12:12 !zjoust test < 06:12:13 Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 06:12:17 (Also) 06:12:25 (It runs in 60 seconds now, opps) 06:12:40 (The Seq->IndexedSeq was my problem) 06:12:57 Lymia: said "program construct" is locks i warrant 06:13:25 It *shouldn't* actually get locked. 06:13:34 It seems to be failing at detecting the program at all. 06:13:38 esp. triplocks on multiple cells simultaneously 06:13:43 Which means something wrong with the VM 06:19:37 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:21:28 <\oren\> http://i.imgur.com/TsBLIhA.gifv 06:29:09 XD that last one 06:29:43 tswett: Yes I know that, but I would insist that any patent license is also usable according to the specifications of GPL3 even if they are using it only under CC0 or any other GPL-compatible license. 06:30:34 Will what you suggested work for this case? 06:35:23 Well, that's a good question. 06:35:56 If your contributors dual-license under CC0 and GPL3, then people will certainly be able to "use the patent license according to the specifications of GPL3". 06:36:17 But they won't be able to use the patent license in violation of the GPL3. 06:36:30 That is OK 06:36:56 As long as the patent license can be used even if the software is not licensed under GPL3. 06:39:23 zzo38: what do you mean "can be used"? 06:39:38 Do you wish to require people who modify your software to license any related patents? 06:39:48 if so, a dual-license will not achieve that objective 06:40:00 No. I intend they can use it for free even if they do not license it 06:40:12 I do not think we are talking about the same thing 06:40:28 Let's suppose I am someone who modifies your software. 06:40:37 Who owns the patent you are referring to? Me or you 06:41:00 Neither me nor you; it is someone who contributed code to my project. 06:42:06 Ok. So you want people who contribute to your project to issue a patent license, but if they distribute a modified version themselves they do not have to? 06:42:26 Now I am confused too. 06:43:14 Ok, let's say you release version 1.0 of your program. 06:43:14 Perhaps I should just mention that they have to agree that everyone has a perpetual non-revocable royalty-free patent license to use the relevant patents and that they are not allowed to sue anyone over these patents. 06:43:20 That would be simpler, I think. 06:43:40 (If someone objects, they could file a ticket and then perhaps it could be changed.) 06:43:42 tswett submits a patch which is included in v1.1 06:43:50 I use v1.1 06:43:57 you want to make it so that tswett can't sue me? 06:44:49 zzo38: uh, lemme see if I can clarify here... 06:44:49 Yes. I intend that tswett can't sue you, even if you use the same patented stuff in other free-software/open-source code (such as that based on v1.0 instead of v1.1, for example). 06:45:14 zzo38: but now if tswett makes a fork 06:45:17 No... I don't really know what you're asking. 06:45:27 and I use the fork in a way he doesn't like 06:45:44 do you want to stop him from suing me then? or only when it's your "official" version? 06:46:03 I intend such fork still you have the license for any patents used in that one that are also used in the official version. 06:46:21 And therefore still they cannot sue you 06:46:55 but what if the patents are not included in the official version? 06:47:48 Then it is irrelevant as it does not seem to be in the scope of contribution agreement. 06:48:28 (I would want to still not make them to sue you, but I cannot alter the laws and that is outside of the scope of the agreement anyways, so it doesn't seem right to put it in.) 06:49:54 in that case, yeah, you want CC0 licensing with a contribution agreement that states that you offer a patent license 06:50:08 *that the contributor offers a patent license 06:50:33 you could probably add a note to the license indicating that all contributors have agreed to license their patents as described 06:52:22 If I altered the license then it would not be the CC0 license. 06:53:22 you are not altering the copyright license 06:53:41 but adding a patent license 06:53:49 or more accurately 06:54:00 drawing the user's attention to an extant patent license 06:54:13 O, OK 06:58:57 quintopia, anyway, yeah. 06:59:18 Now that I'm using an actual array instead of a linked list (the nasty part about collections libraries. :() 06:59:23 It runs in 1 minute instead of 2 days. :D 07:07:39 Is this better now? http://sprunge.us/WKZW 07:08:57 A trademark agreement also might be needed which specifies that if your contribution includes anything that is trademarked, that such trademarks can be used for compatibility purposes. Is this already implied by trademark law anyways though? I would think it is but I am unsure. 07:09:00 -!- augur has joined. 07:09:44 I think you probably don't have to worry about trademark. 07:10:23 Is the patent license better now? 07:10:32 Fair use for trademark is very broad. "Coca-Cola" is a trademark, but I can still say it in IRC, write a book about Coca-Cola, make a YouTube video where I sing a song about Coca-Cola... 07:11:25 The only thing I'm prohibited from doing is make people think I'm providing a Coca-Cola product or service, or otherwise representing the Coca-Cola brand in any way. 07:12:26 I can even say "Coca-Cola" in an advertisement for a competing soft drink, as long as the ad makes it clear that the soft drink is not a Coca-Cola product. 07:13:22 I think that ReactOS has "Microsoft" in some parts of the registry for compatibility purposes, and a GameBoy cartridge can include the Nintendo logo for compatibility with GameBoy; these are what I meant by, ensure it can be used for compatibility purposes. 07:13:46 That's definitely allowed under fair use. 07:14:07 OK, then I do not need to add a trademark license to this agreement. 07:15:00 But, is the patent license better now? 07:15:57 Yes, I think I like it. I'm no lawyer, of course. There's just one change I suggest. 07:16:11 OK, what change do you suggest? 07:16:12 Change "multiple tiers" to "an unlimited number of tiers". 07:18:22 I took everything from "perpetual" to "otherwise transfer" (inclusive) from another contribution agreement (and it seems similar to many things I have seen before too), although I will change that, as it doesn't seem a problem to change that. 07:19:35 (All words surrounding that part are my own) 07:25:47 Now I have fixed it http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/info/684ffedc2a64e609 http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/tavern.ui/info/e71ea80bbdcb339b 08:58:55 -!- MoALTz has joined. 09:04:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:47:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:58:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:00:47 * oerjan notes DatCodingGuy introduced himself :P 10:02:17 we might end up with a tradition here 10:05:17 . o O ( I am, what else do you need to know? ~~~~ ) 10:06:26 indeed, that is sufficient 10:07:07 i note the filter caught another type of spammer. 10:08:32 I wonder how long this will hold. 10:08:40 and also seems to have caught a legitimate user who happened not to be logged in 10:08:43 Why are we being targeted? It's hardly a high traffic wiki 10:08:57 Taneb: i assume they're targeting everyone 10:09:05 Same here. 10:09:46 the new system is still based on the assumption that, other than captcha solvers, we're not _specifically_ targeted. 10:10:35 or perhaps they target wikis with between 500 and 5000 articles; wikis large enough to carry weight in a search engine but so small that they may be unmaintained. 10:10:50 hm 10:11:02 (I pulled those numbers out of a hat) 10:11:27 (Just making sure that 1071 is included in the range) 10:11:32 * oerjan remembers the mess that was the complexity Zoo wiki last he checked. 10:11:46 basically, it looks fine... but dont try the Random page button. 10:12:22 they had not cleaned up spam created pages at _all_ - but made sure nothing important linked to them. 10:12:48 when did we reach the 1k mark anyway? 10:12:58 uh, never mind 10:13:08 1757 is the number I should be looking at. 10:14:05 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:14:44 "There are 5,742 registered users, but most of them are spambots." 10:15:16 no one claim we don't have self-irony. 10:15:31 huh, it says 5738 here. oh perhaps because I'm not logged in and seeing a cached version 10:16:07 yup, logging in makes a difference 10:17:03 hm, the complexity zoo random button seems to give proper pages now. although i had to press it twice for some reason. 10:17:54 looks a bit skewed, i keep getting the main page. 10:20:52 hmm, what happens if you weight the pages by number of visits... 10:22:38 maybe. 10:28:18 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49624&oldid=49622 * Oerjan * (+9) Add "external" because everyone's been adding internal ones anyway 10:37:55 [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49625&oldid=49617 * Oerjan * (+102) Add something for old users forgetting to log in 10:39:03 [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Abusefilter-introduce-yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49626&oldid=49625 * Oerjan * (+0) apparently that's not allowed 11:05:50 [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49627&oldid=49612 * Primo * (+171) /* Print value of cell x as number for ANY sized cell (ie 8bit, 16bit, etc) */ 12:11:17 -!- Zarutian has joined. 12:18:32 -!- augur has joined. 12:23:00 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:05:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:24:40 -!- Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:26:45 -!- Zarutian has joined. 13:51:28 -!- boily has joined. 13:54:14 -!- Jafet has quit (Quit: Jafet). 14:35:33 -!- Jafet has joined. 14:48:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BORROWED CHICKEN). 15:32:07 I've been trying to think of a faster algorithm for greater-than comparison of von-neuman-index encoded natural numbers (that might not be the correct term, it was used in setbang posts but I was unable to find same description under that name elsewhere) 15:33:16 basically, von-neuman-index encoding works by representing a number as the set of two's exponents that added up make the number 15:33:37 and this is applied recursively 15:34:20 I(∅) = 0 I({a, b, c, …}) = 2^I(a) + 2^I(b) + 2^I(c) + … 15:35:41 currently, to determine if a > b, I first remove the intersection of the two sets from both (as this is equivalent to substraction, will not change the result of a > b) 15:36:15 then, if a is ∅, it's false, and if a is not ∅ but b is ∅, it's true 15:37:44 if both a and b are not ∅, I iterate through elements in a, looking for element e_a in a such that for any element e_b in b, e_a > e_b 15:38:06 if I find such an element, a is greater than b 15:40:24 this is basically removing bits both a and b have, and then seeing which one has higher highest-order-bit. as bits shared by both are removed, one of them is bound to have a higher one. and since 2^(n+1) > sum_{i=0}^n 2^n, that one is larger 15:41:26 however, the algo is pretty bad runtimewise, recursively calling itself N(a) * N(b) times in the worst case 15:44:27 i'd try unifying stuff, but that probably won't do much to the runtime 15:44:46 unifying? 15:45:12 how do younintersect 15:45:39 the thing is, I({a,b}) = I({c,d}) isn't it? 15:46:09 as long as a,b,c,d are empty sets, that is 15:46:38 it's a set. it can only contain one empty set 15:46:57 ah 15:48:01 still, how do you intersect? 15:48:16 I take the insersection of two sets 15:48:37 well yeah, but how do you do it on an algorithmical level 15:48:59 since the sets can be arbitrarily deep, solving intersection should be as hard as solving > 15:49:07 I'm currently implementing this with python and frozenset() 15:49:30 which aiui uses hashing 15:49:56 so intersection is just taking the hashes the two sets have in common 15:50:05 okay 15:56:52 buh 15:56:57 how 15:56:58 why 15:57:45 What'd I change, why is this code vulnerable to locks now 15:57:54 Or I assume that's what's happening anyway 16:08:53 your newbie mode got turned off? 16:09:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:18:16 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/72208c9952fe382088b2ef34880927ab5570eec7.bfjoust 16:18:19 Lymia.test: points -10.31, score 12.81, rank 47/47 (--) 16:18:25 waaa 16:20:17 -!- augur has joined. 16:20:26 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/50dff13fa4ddace578da97e7aa9501ae547d8d45.bfjoust 16:20:29 Lymia.test: points -40.64, score 1.30, rank 47/47 (--) 16:24:54 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:27:10 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/50dff13fa4ddace578da97e7aa9501ae547d8d45.bfjoust 16:27:12 Lymia.test: points -40.64, score 1.30, rank 47/47 (--) 16:35:32 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/23cb931b70e702782a0fccc21ba6ff0d573060b7.bfjoust 16:35:36 Lymia.test: points -39.64, score 1.54, rank 47/47 (--) 16:38:26 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/759dd7055ef7e14415bc676541d74a6d4296a94c.bfjoust 16:38:28 Lymia.test: points -31.88, score 4.34, rank 47/47 (--) 16:46:34 -!- Zarutian has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:54:12 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/7cee2bfbba25d9d41fc2c81c04e5c86c15eaf362.bfjoust 16:54:14 Lymia.test: points -31.45, score 4.48, rank 47/47 (--) 16:54:27 There we go 17:02:10 Are there any languages which parse reals differently depending on locale 17:02:33 Like, with a continental Europe locale 3,1415 would be roughly pi? 17:03:38 Does Excel count? 17:03:55 it also changes function names depending on locale, for extra fun 17:04:22 Taneb: most languages do that if you turn locale handling on 17:04:24 C, for example 17:04:27 however it is off by default in C 17:04:53 (but it's a global setting so it's not unheard of for someone other part of the code to turn it on by mistake) 17:05:28 Err, what? 17:05:35 Oh, I was assuming in source code 17:05:47 and not functions parsing/prettyprinting reals 17:06:43 oh 17:06:51 in that case the language parser would have to be /really/ screwed up 17:07:29 fwiw this sort of thing is the reason OpenOffice Calc uses ; as an argument separator 17:09:55 Yeah, I meant source code 17:13:24 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/ad30e6efef150681ddf2497c6e820bb205521d20.bfjoust 17:13:26 Lymia.test: points 43.98, score 507.17, rank 1/47 (+46) 17:13:57 !zjoust test < 17:13:58 Lymia.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 17:34:58 -!- moon_ has joined. 17:35:45 !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/6bc22d8bc2f8b76f4f708d003266bc5227db0118.bfjoust 17:35:47 Lymia.kiseki: points 45.07, score 734.29, rank 1/47 17:36:20 !zjoust kiseki < 17:36:20 Lymia.kiseki: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 17:43:35 Lymia: what did you fix? 17:44:03 VM errors 17:44:26 what's left to fix? 17:44:52 .... 17:44:53 wait wtf 17:44:57 This might be parsing 17:45:33 !zjoust >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1 17:45:33 Lymia: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation. 17:45:38 !zjoust wtf >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1 17:45:39 Lymia.wtf: points -36.29, score 1.92, rank 47/47 17:46:17 !zjoust wtf >(([{}])%-1[<<<])*-1 17:46:18 Lymia.wtf: points -36.29, score 1.92, rank 47/47 (--) 17:46:42 oh 17:46:49 I found a egojsout bug 17:47:43 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709 17:49:09 Who develops egojsout? 17:49:19 gregor 17:49:20 great 17:53:43 [wiki] [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49628&oldid=49006 * AshuraTheHedgehog * (-12) Changed link and number. 17:58:04 Lymia: You know there's a !ztest as well. 17:59:42 fizzie, I need the full breakdown. :c 18:00:29 fizzie, anyway: http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709 18:00:40 bfjsout bug if you can fix it 18:00:56 ls 18:00:58 Er 18:01:00 !zjoust test https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/cec411b5c549c0a1517e4dbb5a364081e6b1fc7a.bfjoust 18:01:02 Lymia.test: points -29.02, score 3.91, rank 47/47 18:01:27 great 18:01:30 and now it fails to reveal the bug 18:01:30 urgh 18:06:20 greeeaaat 18:06:24 It's ({}) related 18:10:30 Bytecode looks right 18:10:31 so, uh 18:19:49 !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/e3d7a6d47f16e0a6c1d4dd3bba2d0d0031f193ae.bfjoust 18:19:51 Lymia.kiseki: points 45.07, score 734.29, rank 1/47 18:20:11 !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/4e162d8368346b0c42c209e2fbcef831e0fb005a.bfjoust 18:20:14 Lymia.kiseki: points 45.83, score 999.98, rank 1/47 18:20:21 !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/4e162d8368346b0c42c209e2fbcef831e0fb005a.bfjoust 18:20:22 Lymia.kiseki: points 45.83, score 999.98, rank 1/47 18:20:48 huh 18:20:58 waterfall3 survives, huh 18:21:25 !zjoust kiseki < 18:21:26 Lymia.kiseki: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-46) 18:21:30 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined. 18:22:12 ais523, your use of advanced programming techniques continues to be a pain the rear for me. 18:23:17 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:23:38 Lymia: What would You do to make it less painfully? 18:25:28 Lymia: in what respect? BF Joust compression? 18:26:20 -!- Zarutian has joined. 18:26:28 I don't know. 18:26:35 waterfall3 doesn't process properly in my VM 18:26:38 -!- Zarutian has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:26:40 And I have no idea what's left to cause problems. 18:27:23 -!- Zarutian has joined. 18:27:48 you could try looking at a trace of how the program runs and comparing it to a trace produced by your VM 18:27:51 waterfall3 has a ton of cases 18:28:04 so it's not easy to guess which one's causing the problem, initially 18:28:30 is kiseki built with a counter-everything algorithm? 18:28:34 or is it juts really good? 18:29:02 It's autogenerated to counter everything. 18:29:40 hmm, this might actually be the end of BF Joust in this case 18:29:48 because it's likely to be trivial to beat by a newly written program 18:30:00 the original version of BF Joust kept the source code secret, at least for a while 18:30:03 to avoid this sort of countering 18:31:49 .... wat 18:31:52 waterfall3 just 18:31:57 Randomly breaks a lock under my VM 18:32:11 [] exits for no reason 18:34:12 oh 18:34:15 Compilation error 18:35:21 well 18:35:32 That was the dumbest bug possible 18:35:44 I had a mistaken AST manipulation that transformed [] into nothing. 18:35:58 now that sounds useful. 18:37:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 18:37:51 I watched a movie called "The Invention of Lying" the other day 18:37:54 I loved it so much 18:37:59 Then I realized it's a romantic comedy 18:38:02 And I was sad 18:38:48 does anybody know if ratings in the google play store are somehow filtered or are germans really the only people complaining about stuff not being translated for them? 18:39:20 !ztest kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/32f5753d36c979c4b0ca5aa0dba8931b5cd9dc9b.bfjoust 18:39:21 Lymia.kiseki: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47 (+46) 18:40:07 Lymia: you could do with applying an extra level of RLE to kiseki output 18:40:09 it'd make it easier to read 18:40:38 atm it only seems to RLE single commands rather than strings of them 18:42:54 that said, I've proved that there's a set of 768 programs such that it's impossible to beat all of them on all tape lengths with the same program 18:43:26 Good luck getting them on a hill 18:43:33 indeed! 18:44:00 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 18:44:19 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Client Quit). 18:44:57 also I'm not 100% sure the proof was correct but I can't remember the details 18:45:15 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 18:47:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:47:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:50:01 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 18:51:29 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 18:51:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:54:27 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:57:16 Huh, 999.98. 18:58:27 Let me build a new version 18:58:32 And see if that's because I'm missing someone 18:58:43 Did you replace it with < offscreen? Because the web page's showing it as < for me. 18:58:58 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 18:59:54 (Welp, need to dinner-away anyway.) 19:01:05 fizzie: this is weird. this page http://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown/#ais523.basic_attack says "quintopia_brachiation wins" but when you view in the graphical interpreter, it shows the other winning overwhelmingly. what's the deal? 19:01:16 fizzie: ARGH 19:01:27 why do people leave just when i want to say something to them 19:01:38 (answer: karma) 19:01:49 s/say/discuss/ 19:02:15 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:02:23 Karma for swatting? 19:02:39 quintopia, http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=20508d0326326fd282b7ee01c38734f6b0421bbd&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709 19:02:43 I found a bug in it 19:02:54 It treats (x)*-1 as (x-)*-1 apparently 19:02:58 * oerjan is pondering how to make the link in ais523's new filter's error message open in a new tab/window, and sadly concludes that mediawiki makes that ridiculously complicated and probably needs the LinkTarget extension 19:03:33 (i think it should do that so that people don't accidentally get their edits deleted in a stressful situation) 19:03:40 you either need an extention or to rewrite the link using JavaScript 19:03:54 I guess 19:04:03 That's two programming games based on BF I've done bad things to. 19:04:05 whoa, is that the British spelling? 19:04:16 Or is it like intention/intension? 19:04:19 ais523: what it someone doesn't have js enabled? 19:04:34 shachaf: of course not. swatting gives positive karma hth 19:04:34 then the link doesn't get rewritten 19:04:38 I'm pretty sure that's a typo 19:04:44 the use of JS is a hack in this situation 19:04:54 shachaf: was just a typo 19:05:02 Oh. :-( 19:05:03 although it's very believable as a real spelling 19:05:21 It was extensionally indistinguishable from an intentional spelling. 19:05:24 !ztest did-i-break-it https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/270c73c713877745c3d670fb8411d462ae82d530.bfjoust 19:05:26 Lymia.did-i-break-it: points 12.12, score 34.72, rank 5/47 19:05:28 yes 19:06:57 Lymia: which is the other BF-based game? 19:07:19 I didn't really break-break it, but. 19:07:23 FukYorBrane is mathematically broken because you can write a program which will always beat all programs that are shorter than it by more than a certain proportion 19:07:34 meaning that optimal strategy is to take that program and keep making it longer 19:07:38 I never bothered to actually write it though 19:07:50 I found out that in fukyerbrane, @@ lets you set the data pointer 19:07:53 Which is... 19:07:57 Probably not an intentional primitive. 19:08:24 Heh 19:08:38 oh, I was using a trick involving defecting and loops 19:08:58 in order to teleport the IP faster than the other program's speed of light 19:09:17 thus giving you a certain length of time where you were guaranteed to be not interfered with 19:09:21 how so 19:09:41 quintopia: Yeah, the breakdown + "X wins" message is from the gearlance results, while the game browser is a forked copy of egojsout. They did produce identical results for the hill I started from (comparing the outputs is part of my regression test suite), but I guess something's wrong. 19:09:48 Lymia: also, what? 19:09:49 (I'm still trying to be away and make dinner.) 19:10:09 fizzie: 19:11:50 .. hrm 19:11:58 Constructing a minimum error case is harder than I thought 19:13:19 ah 19:13:19 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/egojsout/?l=ce11b1ce0d71cf74f2fd6db9e8f1c86de0973812&r=da39a3ee5e6b4b0d3255bfef95601890afd80709 19:13:21 Here you go. 19:13:32 Lymia: neither of those programs use *-1 19:13:44 ? 19:13:49 I found a bug. 19:13:52 Lymia: how do you use @@? 19:13:54 You might have found another. \o/ 19:14:22 Lymia: most likely, but i don't have the gumption to track it down atm 19:14:23 "%-1" is a dubious concept as it is 19:15:07 ais523: nah. makes perfect sense. -1 is shorthand for "the maximum allowed number of repetitions" 19:15:23 supposed to be up to the interpreter to figure out what it means 19:15:29 I don't like that shorthand because it makes - parse ambiguously 19:15:38 although I implemented it in juiced anyway because people keep using it 19:15:53 ais523: fair complaint 19:17:16 ais523: it doesn't actually seem ambiguous though, since - should only appear after * or % in precisely this context. I would consider a * or % not followed by a - or number a syntax error in a bfjoust program 19:17:28 yes 19:17:35 it's not ambiguous from the point of view of parsing 19:17:40 nor really from the point of view of tokenisation 19:17:56 but it still feels like it violates the spirit of BF to use the same character for two different things 19:18:08 hence "fair complaint" 19:18:46 indeed 19:19:07 could have used some other glyph for it, like _ or something 19:19:18 Hmm 19:20:11 or just not include it, and require programmers to type 1111111111 or something (is that long enough for the average "maximum repetitions"?) 19:21:09 99999 is enough 19:21:31 unless you're repeating one character as your entire program 19:21:35 in which case you need one extra copy 19:22:26 i'd go with 111111 just because the 1s look cleaner :D 19:26:52 also I'm not 100% sure the proof was correct but I can't remember the details <-- didn't we find essentially the same proof 19:26:59 could be 19:27:35 `factor 768 19:27:36 768: 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 3 19:28:32 !ztest is-it-working-yet https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d2b103275d0bdd2f3019c20ad2bb4a1cbaf5dfdf.bfjoust 19:28:34 Lymia.is-it-working-yet: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47 19:28:45 !zjoust kiseki https://paste.lymia.moe/lymia/d2b103275d0bdd2f3019c20ad2bb4a1cbaf5dfdf.bfjoust 19:28:47 Lymia.kiseki: points 46.00, score 999.98, rank 1/47 (+46) 19:30:58 oh right, _all_ tape lengths. so they just have to work for one. 19:31:42 and you can choose which. 19:33:18 hm would it be possible to reduce the 3 to 2 19:33:29 My defense algorithm isn't good enough to kill the whole hill at once without using brackets. :( 19:33:34 It tries! (but fails and dies) 19:34:38 (as in, do you actually need the programs that don't modify their own flag) 19:38:33 I've had a cool idea for an esoteric language, but I don't know if someone else has come up with the same thing and implemented it already 19:38:43 Essentially, it's a language that gets executed "backwards in time" 19:39:18 So Hello, World! would be something like fn main() { let x = read_line(); assert(x == "Hello, World!"); } 19:39:51 If something inconsistent happens, the program will terminate with a "paradox" 19:40:14 Syntax is still undecided 19:41:14 ais523, https://github.com/Lymia/BFJoust-Utils 19:41:18 If you want to look over my generators. 19:41:19 FreeFull: WUUI uses a similar principle 19:41:28 although to a different end 19:41:34 This is a bit of a hack job 19:42:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 19:42:41 The challenge would be getting a language like this to actually do some useful computation, rather than just verify the user's input 19:43:00 Also I think implementing it will be hard 19:43:19 WUUI is easy to implement but very hard to implement efficiently 19:45:23 fn main() { let a = 0, b = 1; loop *3 { print(a); print(b); a += b; b += a; } } will have the user enter the fibonnacci sequence backwards, otherwise the program terminates with a paradox 19:45:52 What do I even put on BF Joust strategies? 19:45:55 The individual lines wouldn't be backwards, for convenience 19:45:58 I did get #1 :^) 19:46:47 With terminal trickery by the end you can even make it look like the program was executed and printed out the fibonacci sequence by itself ;) 19:47:12 Lymia: I guess you could just explain that it was found by computer search to beat all existing programs 19:47:55 It ha some semblance of a strategy. 19:48:10 It aggressively distinguishes different programs using [] 19:48:26 Then switches between a defense and attack loop to kill stuff off. 19:50:08 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:56:56 -!- ais523 has quit. 20:07:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:14:46 Statistics breaks things a lot of the time 20:15:25 Lymia: make your program generayor automatically generate a description of its strategy 20:15:38 For example, if one crime C is considered 1/100th as bad as another crime D, then usually the punishment for D will be 100 times worse than that for C 20:16:14 But you can make a statistically similar system by, instead of putting people guilty of D in prison for 10 years and people guilty of C in prison for 0.1 20:16:40 Putting people guilty of D in prison for 10 years always and people guilty of C in prison for 10 years 1% of the time, chosen at random 20:16:52 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:16:53 -!- moon_ has joined. 20:17:05 quintopia, pff 20:17:12 It does spam output I guess 20:17:15 But that was for debugging 20:18:35 Lymia: make it output meaningful and narrative english sentences. you know, just for fun 20:19:02 just for fun, got it? 20:22:03 -!- augur has joined. 20:23:05 if it's not fun, don't do it. 20:23:20 has anyone written good code while walking on a treadmill? 20:26:10 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:26:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:45:14 -!- Guest85738 has joined. 21:42:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:46:20 -!- feliks has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 21:49:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 21:51:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:58:05 -!- Guest85738 has changed nick to augur. 22:07:52 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:10:43 -!- kuroro has left. 22:12:49 -!- MoALTz has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:15:19 -!- feliks has joined. 22:18:10 quit Nite 22:18:10 oops 22:18:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:27:17 What's the Ur-Example of Ur-Examples? 22:27:44 Ur 22:31:06 Ugh 22:34:37 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined. 22:34:42 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:37:45 Can I please restructure english with a fully-productive case system and some nice extra tenses 22:37:56 hmm 22:38:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 22:38:08 nah 22:38:21 english aint that kinda lang 22:38:33 quintopia: Fine, I'll rename it 22:38:37 learn some other lang if you need it 22:38:39 while ypu are at it, add an alphabet that makes itpossible to actually pronouncr words correctly 22:38:53 quintopia: I'm going to learn german this year, so that's nice 22:39:04 ok 22:39:06 myname: Nah, I don't want to mess with spelling 22:39:25 Somebody pointed out to me the lack of a past-impossible case and I now need one 22:39:51 myname: I might add þ though, maybe 22:40:06 (Is it possible to simply rebind my keyboard to add letters like that?) 22:40:08 i don't belive you. that couldn't have happened 22:40:36 quintopia: Past-impossible is for things that were true but now aren't, but where the external facts haven't changed 22:40:38 Or something 22:40:53 Like referring to someone who, in the past, did not know the (still-the-same) location of New Jerseey 22:41:10 You could say "E didn't know where New Jersey was", but that implies that New Jersey isn't there any more 22:41:42 Or "E didn't know where New Jersey is", but people don't like that 22:41:44 didnt know where new jersey is leaves unanswered whether they know now 22:41:51 quintopia: Ah, yes, that too 22:42:26 He didn't know where New Jersey had been going to be 22:42:49 Taneb: No, that implies New Jersey was going to move (and since has), but that he wasn't informed of the new location 22:43:06 how about a tense for things that were true in the past but it is expressly uncertain whether they are currently true 22:43:24 or likewise for the future 22:43:38 (I want fn+t to be þ and shift+fn+t to be (of course) Þ) 22:43:43 hppavilion[1], I was trying for the worst possible avast 22:43:46 Answer 22:43:52 Ah 22:43:56 you could make that work with altgr easily 22:43:59 quintopia: That will also be useful 22:44:01 -!- atrapado has joined. 22:44:10 or well, assuming you're american you could probably just use us-international 22:44:12 i think you just invented a new tense taneb 22:44:55 I definitely want the Habitual/continuative aspect from AAVE 22:45:05 ("he be working Tuesdays" is how it is in AAVE) 22:45:28 quintopia: No, it's an existing complex tense 22:45:43 FireFly: No altgr on mine :/ 22:45:53 altgr = right alt 22:45:59 depending on layout 22:46:00 does "he works on tuesdays" not capture the same info? 22:46:48 hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#US-International 22:46:57 hppavilion[1]: you are watching xidnaf? 22:47:18 quintopia: the example is bad 22:47:27 quintopia: "he be working" is better 22:47:51 hmm 22:48:17 he be working = he has a job 22:48:29 myname: Yes, but that doesn't generalize 22:48:55 Not sure what xidnaf is 22:49:13 Oh, wait, s/myname/quintopia/ 22:49:40 xidnaf is a small youtube channel about language stuff 22:50:47 You may also to define your own keyboard layout (how this is done depend what operating system) 22:50:48 myname: Oh, right, yeah, I remember 22:50:53 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49629&oldid=49624 * Ais523 * (+57) looks like at least one human didn't read the instructions… 22:50:56 myname: I'm following him, yes 22:51:47 What layer is changing the name of an object in Magic: the Gathering? 22:52:02 i am always looking for similar channels 22:59:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:26 . o O ( If I learn DVORAK and change my computer's keyboard layout to it, then nobody will ever be able to use my keyboard if they aren't me ) 23:07:35 well, unless they're me 23:08:06 (or other dvorak users obviously) 23:09:40 If you change the labels too then somebody can see that it is not QWERTY layout. 23:09:45 that's wrong, noone will be able to use any keyboard on your computer, but your keyboard almost anywhere 23:11:52 Henceforþ, þe sound previously represented wiþ þe digraph "th" shall be written wiþ þ ("þorn"), at least for me 23:12:34 I'm actively making a custom keyboard rebinding to include it wiþ altgr+t (and capital wiþ altgr+shift+t) 23:12:44 Prepare to be annoyed every time I talk 23:13:45 I þink þat's a good idea. 23:13:57 (I will allow þ to represent boþ voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives) 23:14:00 hppavilion[1]: we already are 23:14:00 tswett: Excellent 23:14:07 myname: :,( 23:14:25 Mean. 23:15:02 Hey, have a randomly generated etymology or ten. 23:15:05 bronchy (n.) Look up broint at Dictionary.com 23:15:05 masc. proper name, from Proto-Germanic *brandin (cognates: Gaulish desma, Old Frisian biflie, Old Irish bingane) "to gritter, quirtly, diamon" (cognate with Old Saxon bindre), from dsanque "near with sheeper, drink, chronal, grow," from PIE root *dhan- "to fees-wittle" (see the Anauil). Related: Accommlint. 23:15:58 i am curious about the etymology of super market 23:16:22 * hppavilion[1] contemplates adding additional letters for sh, ch, and ng 23:16:38 corn (n.) 23:16:38 1843, from corn (n.) + head. Related: Contented; contenting. 23:16:43 (ph will be allowed to live) 23:16:47 hppavilion[1]: you should use eth when appropriate methinks 23:16:47 Good ol' recursive etymologies. 23:16:57 hppavilion[1]: maybe also long s 23:17:00 FireFly: When is eþ appropriate? 23:17:25 _th_e vs. _th_at 23:17:30 I think 23:17:47 wait hm 23:17:50 hppavilion[1]: https://youtu.be/fPzAABMozs0 23:17:59 _th_e vs wi_th_ 23:18:09 hppavilion[1]: but you've got a nice letter for "ph". It's ɸ. 23:18:09 ðe and wiþ 23:18:12 (I'm honestly planning to use þese in school þis year. My teachers can't stop me because rules mwahahahahaha) 23:18:21 are you sure about that 23:18:22 FireFly: ...þose are exactly the same in my dialect 23:18:24 What rules are those? 23:18:26 Ah 23:18:28 I see 23:18:55 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:19:04 tswett: "ph" makes þe same sound as "f", so if I want to kill it it'll just be replaced wiþ 'f' 23:19:15 Oh yeah. 23:19:17 FireFly: About what? 23:19:24 hppavilion[1]: that last þ should be ð instead 23:19:27 "My teachers can't stop me because rules" 23:19:34 Zarutian: It isn't on my clipboard 23:19:37 FireFly: Yes, actually 23:19:38 hppavilion[1]: wið regards. 23:19:54 Didn't elliott decide to use long s'es when appropriate for a while? 23:20:01 back in the olden days 23:20:12 hppavilion[1]: clipboard? You mean keyboard, no? or is it to µ in its selection of keys? 23:20:14 brain (v.) 23:20:14 "bolopic late 14c.," 1861, only with a wadmer attention man, "pourness, son of the misses" (c. 1300), supposed to restricted the numble correct the surges in the words for the found intercours from brethed "to throw or for strength" (1560s). Meaning "spitchs of dawn," the first it also in first element and in ambushi (1793). As a variant a allo-ded attested from 1778. 23:20:47 * Zarutian hands hppavilion[1] a π for his troubles 23:21:36 FireFly: Due to a probably-not-quite-accurate diagnosis of Asperger's by a doctor who seems to have it himself, my teachers have been warned about me, and spelling reform will be noþing for þem 23:22:03 Zarutian: Clipboard; I haven't finished þe new keyboard layout yet, so I'm just hitting ctrl+v every time I need þ 23:22:25 That is sort of evil 23:22:36 and probably not in the spirit of the diagnosis :P 23:22:38 hppavilion[1]: wrote a short essay using nothing but old futhark runes. Got it back with comments in red ink, written in same runes 23:22:46 :D 23:22:56 I think nortti would enjoy that 23:23:11 seems like something he'd do, too 23:23:27 ('o' binds to 'ø', not because I plan to use it for spelling, but because I need to be able to type it for every time I write my name) 23:23:39 Now I'm curious 23:23:54 Hmm 23:24:07 (Norwegian descent on my faþer's side; last name was anglicized, but I deanglicized it) 23:24:13 I see 23:24:34 FireFly: Should I put eþ under my 'd' key? It looks kind of like a 'd'. 't' is taken for þ 23:24:55 (...googling may become difficult) 23:25:17 Wait, no, it looks like Google corrects 'þ' into 'th' in searches 23:25:55 it might be searching for both, but I get lots of thorns 23:26:02 a bit of a þorny issue sometimes. Specially when diffrenating between Thorlacious and Þórláks 23:26:08 olsner: Huh. Good enough. 23:26:17 `quote þorn 23:26:17 No output. 23:26:20 `quote thorn 23:26:21 No output. 23:26:25 there, now I can type ſ and µ 23:26:28 much better 23:26:39 did we wipe the quotes or something? 23:26:46 ∫o whot? 23:27:25 what's the point in replacing a symbol with another one 23:27:41 (Also, relevant 'er's will also be reversed, and 'u' will be used as intended in choice 'or' words. 'defence' over 'defense', etc.) 23:27:54 myname: ...I want to say some noble, spelling reform-related cause 23:28:00 myname: what are you thinking of? 23:28:06 myname: I do not know but then I do not live at Pretentiusstraße 23:28:10 hppavilion[1]: i meant Zarutian 23:28:17 But it's really just that I like þ as a letter and would prefer to try and get it reinstated into english 23:28:18 Oh 23:28:49 Damn, searching for "þeater" gives me non-english results 23:28:56 Zarutian: it didn't make sense in german either, i think. except for resultung in the ß diphtong 23:29:01 Wonder if there's a way to coax google to modify my searches... 23:29:16 `unidecode ∫ 23:29:17 ​[U+222B INTEGRAL] 23:30:01 Zarutian: I was always under the impression ∫ was stylistic, not a distinct letter (like þe difference between single- and double-story 'a' and 'g') 23:30:13 Crap, I said 'there' 23:30:14 :( 23:30:18 I'll figure it out someday 23:30:29 (My homestuck friends will love this...) 23:30:57 hppavilion[1]: it wasn't a distinct letter 23:31:08 myname: Exactly 23:31:31 it is basically the same as s, but you write it if not at the beginning of a syllable 23:32:22 you mean ſ I think, not ∫ 23:32:35 (Maybe I could make a Firefox extension þat turns 'þ' into 'th' in a search?) 23:33:11 I'm considering turning 'ng' to 'ŋ' as well; should I? 23:33:15 It looks good 23:33:25 or you could as well just stop writing shitty 23:34:35 i do agree that english should be reformed somehow, but just randomly exchange stuff like you feel like it just makes it harder for anyone to communicate with you 23:35:10 i won't stop you, but if it gets too obscure, i won't take the time to read what you are trying to say 23:35:27 myname: Yeah, I don't plan to make it too obscure 23:36:07 you just named like 4 symbols or so ypu want to introduce and to force others to remember 23:37:07 -!- ais523 has quit. 23:38:18 Yay! There's even Ezh (Ʒ/ʒ) 23:38:30 You should just write IPA 23:39:22 FireFly: ...yeah, ðat's kind of where ðis is headed, isn't it? 23:39:35 sure seems so 23:40:26 FireFly: I'll stop after I have a ch; ðat's ðe last one I need 23:40:40 you should also start using wynn and yogh 23:42:17 crowting/(c.) 23:42:17 1530s, "a downs," but the meaning "squind found rubles which is taken as the name by intrograte into, drink falsion," from croby (n.). 23:42:24 "crowting/" is an interesting word. 23:42:31 Apparently its part of speech is "century". 23:44:12 olsner: Already a letter for ðat 23:44:22 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:44:24 (I like how ðat looks like "dat") 23:46:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:47:12 FireFly: Is ðere any old or middle-engliʃ letter for "ch"? 23:47:23 no idea 23:48:01 Esperanto appears to use ĉ 23:49:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:49:23 we should all speak lojban 23:49:32 such a great language 23:50:51 myname: Agreed, but I doubt ðat my school would be able to find a translator 23:51:09 (for more utilitarian purposes, I'm adding € as well)