←2016-09-09 2016-09-10 2016-09-11→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:00:17 -!- DHeadshot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:01:50 <fizzie> Outside of Dremel, I think it's all just JSON all the way down.
00:03:02 <shachaf> JSON is scow.
00:04:20 <fizzie> JSON with one line per object, and then you just parse it over and over and over again when looking for something.
00:04:31 <shachaf> fizzie: What if you semi-index it?
00:04:39 <shachaf> Did you see that paper?
00:04:52 <shachaf> http://www.di.unipi.it/~ottavian/files/semi_index_cikm.pdf
00:04:55 <fizzie> Probably not.
00:05:39 <shachaf> Anyway the point is that I want more structure than JSON has.
00:06:09 <wob_jonas> shachaf: talk to zzo38 about that then
00:06:39 <shachaf> Why?
00:06:56 <zzo38> One kind of thing with more structure is to use RDF.
00:07:03 <oerjan> <shachaf> \ is upper-case | in IRC. <-- if those old charsets had stayed on, i might have been \rjan
00:07:04 <shachaf> Another thing is protobuf.
00:07:14 <fizzie> Regarding the paper, sounds clever but why wouldn't you just ColumnIO(/Capacitor).
00:07:14 <shachaf> oerjan: it's not too late hth
00:07:16 <zzo38> If you are doing text markup though, then XML might work.
00:07:50 <oerjan> @messages-
00:07:51 <lambdabot> fizzie said 14h 28m 20s ago: I didn't realize filter 9 effectively disables anonymous editing; turning it off "properly" SGTM.
00:07:59 <shachaf> fizzie: If you can pre-parse things and put them in your own format, of course something human-readable like JSON isn't going to be as good.
00:08:12 <oerjan> shachaf: ARGH
00:08:26 <shachaf> oerjan: What?
00:08:30 * oerjan swats shachaf for making a fake @ask -----###
00:08:33 <shachaf> I didn't want to spam the channel.
00:09:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i use to count the number of lambdabot messages compared to what's in the log to see if it's safe to use @-loud hth
00:09:24 <zzo38> RDF is a easily readable/writable format too. Let's see what you need to make? In some cases, a binary format will work better
00:09:25 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, I see.
00:09:32 <shachaf> oerjan: I didn't realize that. v. clever
00:09:34 <zzo38> And, what programming language you are using.
00:09:43 <shachaf> zzo38: I like proto.
00:09:50 <shachaf> fizzie: What do you think of Cap'n Proto?
00:09:59 <wob_jonas> fungot, is RDF a easily readable/writable format too? Let's see what you need to make? In some cases, a binary format will work better
00:10:08 <oerjan> fortunately fizzie's message doesn't look overly confidential :)
00:10:18 <hppavilion[1]> Hm...
00:10:24 <zzo38> Such as, JavaScript will have JSON built-in and I wrote a library to read/write RDF too.
00:10:26 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out if there's a gambit for something I'm looking for
00:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> One of our cats escaped sometime yesterday, and today after coming home from school I decided to look around and found him in one of the neighbor's yards
00:11:27 <shachaf> oerjan: fizzie's message was in the channel too.
00:11:38 <hppavilion[1]> He couldn't have gotten in over the fence (he's old, a bit fat, and was declawed by the previous owners; he would have a hard time climbing the fence)
00:11:55 <shachaf> oerjan: Now I see what happened. You missed fizzie's message in the log, so the 1 lambdabot reported matched the 1 you saw.
00:12:04 <shachaf> And therefore it tricked you into revealing a message you thought was secret.
00:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> He couldn't have jumped it either, because I don't think I've ever seen him jump nearly high enough (and even if he could, he'd be way too scared)
00:12:13 <wob_jonas> hpp: went through a hole through the fence? isn't that what cats normally do?
00:12:14 <shachaf> I thought you were just confused by 1<2
00:12:17 <oerjan> <shachaf> @ask oerjan was that pun truly an accident? twh <-- which pun twh
00:12:22 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: That was my next possibility
00:12:36 <hppavilion[1]> He could've climbed in other, but I'm pretty sure he was stuck in their yard
00:12:44 <shachaf> oerjan: "insidious" hth
00:12:49 <fizzie> shachaf: I think when I was reading about it, all the arguments made sense, more or less, but something in the style of the writing made me feel bad on behalf of protobufs. I mean the format itself.
00:12:53 <wob_jonas> cats can climb through holes you'd think are impossible to climb through. they have like epic skills.
00:13:08 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, the author of capnproto is the author of proto2.
00:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Yeah, but this looked thin even for a cat
00:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> Now, usually I'd just think he HAD managed to squeeze in and just couldn't get out for some reason (which seems unlikely)
00:14:10 <wob_jonas> hpp: another hole you didn't notice then?
00:14:28 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I could look for another hole, but for now let's assume this is the only hole
00:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> (also, their fence has only two sides, as this is a neighborhood of duplexes)
00:14:51 <fizzie> shachaf: I know, that's why I didn't feel bad for the author, just poor old proto2 itself. It's pretty irrational, but that's what soured me on the whole thing. Well, that and the name.
00:14:52 <oerjan> shachaf: itym "fiendish"
00:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> (And the yards are only about 5 metres on edge)
00:15:00 <oerjan> oh wait
00:15:12 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, "insidious" was really an accident.
00:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: But the reason I'm suspicious is that we've had trouble with these particular neighbors before
00:15:23 <oerjan> afa my conscious mind is concerned, anyway.
00:15:32 <shachaf> oerjan: fiendish
00:16:04 <hppavilion[1]> One day last year when one of our other cats (much younger, much more cat-like) got out, they came over to complain about it
00:16:12 <wob_jonas> hpp: could someone have opened the gate of your yard?
00:16:22 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: No, we think we know how he got out
00:16:36 <Moonythedwarf> fizzie: quick question: why is there no node.js & npm on hackego? :P
00:16:36 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I'm wondering about why he was there
00:16:51 <hppavilion[1]> Because apparently she was showing up in their yard and they were annoyed because they were trying to attract birds
00:16:59 <wob_jonas> cats go where they please
00:17:16 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I don't think he wanted to be there, because he was starving when I found him
00:17:39 <fizzie> Moonythedwarf: That's a Gregor question, really.
00:17:42 <wob_jonas> ouch
00:17:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you should be happy. one of my mom's friends' cat sneaked into a cellar room somewhere and they didn't find it until it had starved to death hth
00:17:49 <hppavilion[1]> So one of them (a woman) came over to complain about it (she apparently did not understand that pumpkin would not stay inside)
00:17:57 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Now I'm sad
00:18:11 <hppavilion[1]> And she pretty much walked directly into out house
00:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> Like, we answered the door and she just stepped inside to start complaining
00:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> (Note for foreigners who may or may not have the same customs (I don't know if this varies): In the US, someone answering the door is not an invitation to enter. It's EXTREMELY rude, and a little bit aggressive, to walk in without an explicit invitation)
00:19:48 <wob_jonas> ouch
00:19:59 <hppavilion[1]> And I found him in their yard today, seemingly trapped
00:20:50 <hppavilion[1]> One of our neighbors (probably the same one) brought the youngcat (Pumpkin) to the pound today
00:21:13 <wob_jonas> hpp: my brother otld me stories about their cat and the evil neighbor, but not quite the same story.
00:21:32 <oerjan> shachaf: oh. i didn't really "miss" the message, but since i'd already reached the count i didn't keep searching for more.
00:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> And my best guess is that Pete went to their house when he realized he was ready to come home thinking it was ours (they're 2 doors down, so the same side of the duplex) and started complaining
00:21:36 <wob_jonas> evil neighbors hating your cat must be a trope or something
00:21:45 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: It's a thing, definitely
00:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> And they had already dealt with a cat today, so they just grabbed him and put him in their back yard until they could take him to the pound too
00:24:43 <hppavilion[1]> (I believe when I first saw him, he was in front of their back door wanting to get in- their back door is different from ours, so he probably didn't think it was us, and he would've just left if he could- but he was complaining to try to get inside, as if he'd already been in there)
00:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> I knocked on their door to ask if I could enter their back yard, but no one seemed to be home, so I eventually just opened their gate on my own, got him out as quickly as possible (it took longer than expected because he went and hid so I had to get food), and left
00:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> So if they did trap him, they don't know that I showed up and retrieved him, and they may not know he's gone
00:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> If he was just there and they had nothing to do with it, they won't know he was there at all (or they'd have just shooed him away)
00:26:51 <hppavilion[1]> And I'm wondering if there's some sort of gambit (like a Batman Gambit or a Xanatos Gambit) that we could use to see which it is based on what knowledge they have
00:27:44 <wob_jonas> heh
00:27:53 <oerjan> <fizzie> Moonythedwarf: That's a Gregor question, really. <-- i thought there _was_ node.js somewhere and a program that used it. although perhaps not in the usual path. of course npm won't work assuming that needs network.
00:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: Any ideas?
00:28:11 <fizzie> Mmmaybe.
00:28:42 <fizzie> There is a js interpreter at least, I think.
00:29:15 <zzo38> Clearly npm won't work but I think probably Node.js should be added on HackEgo
00:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> My best idea is to pretend we haven't found him yet and ask if we can check their yard
00:29:32 <zzo38> (But, omit npm)
00:29:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw in norway most cats roam freely, so someone like your neighbor would probably be laughed at.
00:29:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah
00:29:53 <zzo38> You should add version 5 or 6
00:30:17 <fizzie> `` rhino </dev/null
00:30:19 <HackEgo> Rhino 1.7 release 3 2012 02 13 \ js>
00:31:08 <Moonythedwarf> PRogram i have (clone of mr polybot's calculator for starts) _requires_ node to run
00:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> And if they say no, the most likely case is they think he's there and they don't want us to know we trapped him
00:31:50 <hppavilion[1]> But if they know he's gone, they have nothing to lose
00:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, we could say we just saw him back there, but then they might say yes even if they DO know he's there so that we don't think they're suspicious
00:32:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you know of any sort of gambit that'd work here?
00:33:01 <wob_jonas> hpp: sorry, I'm very bad at social engineering, so I'm definitely the wrong person to ask about this. maybe try one of the other nerds here.
00:33:08 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
00:35:21 <shachaf> Who here was the expert on differential forms?
00:35:23 <shachaf> oerjan?
00:36:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> (Note for foreigners who may or may not have the same customs (I don't know if this varies): <-- certainly rude in norway unless you know someone very well
00:36:34 <Moonythedwarf> i can install the other requirements (packages) via the power of
00:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Figured, seems like one of the more universal customs
00:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> OK, who here CAN do some social engineering?
00:40:09 <wob_jonas> Moonythedwarf: what?
00:42:16 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> And I'm wondering if there's some sort of gambit (like a Batman Gambit or a Xanatos Gambit) that we could use to see which it is based on what knowledge they have <-- hah, i was tempted to try that the other day in this channel. but i decided to let it go. you know who you are, unless it was the other one hth
00:43:07 <wob_jonas> hpp: although I was quite proud today of a completely accidental piece of social engineering I've done that might or might not have even worked
00:43:14 <wob_jonas> not really engineering either
00:43:19 <hppavilion[1]> ...wookipedia has...http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Color
00:44:15 <wob_jonas> I commented on the blog of one geek person to point at the blog of another geek person with very similar interests, and now the first one seems to read the second one's blog, and backwards, which is a good thing, right?
00:45:15 <_46bit> a very good thing
00:45:18 <_46bit> you're a matchmaker
00:45:49 <_46bit> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPa0TiCuvR4
00:46:06 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: seems reasonable to me
00:48:56 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan? <-- certainly not. i might be able to remember the basics if i try hard, which i don't feel like.
00:52:58 <oerjan> like, you do that product of formal variables divided out by antisymmetry thing
00:53:16 <oerjan> so x ^ x = 0 and x ^ y = - (y ^ x)
00:53:32 <oerjan> i suppose you'd usually put dx or dy
00:53:46 <oerjan> but these can be general vector space elements
00:53:56 <wob_jonas> `? differential forms
00:53:57 <HackEgo> differential forms? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:54:03 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian).
00:54:10 <wob_jonas> `? tanebventions: math
00:54:11 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
00:54:21 <wob_jonas> Taneb didn't invent differential forms?
00:54:52 <alercah> `?differential forms
00:54:52 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?differential: not found
00:54:57 <alercah> `? differential forms
00:54:58 <HackEgo> differential forms? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
00:55:02 <alercah> nope
00:55:05 <shachaf> He invented D-modules.
00:55:11 <wob_jonas> ah
00:55:26 <oerjan> if you have a basis { e_i } for a vector space, then the corresponding n-forms have basis elements like e_i_1 ^ e_i_2 ^ ... ^ e_i_n where i is increasing
00:55:53 <oerjan> *strictly increasing
00:55:56 <wob_jonas> and then you do antisymmetric tensor products
00:56:05 <wob_jonas> ah yes, that's what you mean by the ^
00:56:08 <shachaf> oerjan: So unordered sets of basis elements?
00:56:09 <wob_jonas> I think it should be spelled /\ though
00:56:30 <oerjan> wob_jonas: ok, i'm going by vague memory here
00:56:43 <shachaf> oerjan: you're doing a good job for not feeling like remembering the basics tdh
00:56:50 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, not just unordered sets. antisymmetric tensor products
00:57:01 <oerjan> shachaf: no, they're ordered, but you only do the increasing ones because the others are equivalent to the increasing ones times a sign by antisymmetry
00:57:18 <oerjan> or you could do only decreasing, i guess.
00:57:35 <shachaf> Is that not equivalent?
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00:58:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well i guess. you're supposed to extend ^ to arbitrary vectors though
00:59:11 <shachaf> I meant that those are the basis elements, which you can then define ^ in terms of.
00:59:12 <oerjan> which requires keeping track of sign of the permutations
00:59:15 <shachaf> But maybe that doesn't simplify anything.
00:59:50 <oerjan> shachaf: well i guess it might.
01:00:40 <shachaf> Anyway I thought dx was usually vector in the cotangent space or something like that?
01:00:43 <oerjan> then you would define e_i_1 ^ e_i_2 ^ e_i_3 ... more generally as {i_1, ..., i_n} times the sign of the permutation
01:01:15 <oerjan> shachaf: well sure, after you've defined this, you apply it to cotangent bundles or what it was
01:01:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yes, of which the e are a basis of
01:02:43 <oerjan> i suppose you don't have to go via basis, but can just do it abstractly as a quotient, but the basis helps with calculations?
01:03:45 <wob_jonas> oerjan: the basis gives the definition, but then of course you have to prove this stuff is consistent as in if you change the basis you can extend the change of basis to the antisymmetric tensor product space such that it keeps the antisymmetric tensor product operation.
01:04:24 <wob_jonas> which is important, because you need change of basis if you can't give a single basis everywhere on the manifold
01:05:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: you're doing a good job for not feeling like remembering the basics tdh <-- i started feeling a little better hth
01:05:40 <wob_jonas> And then you need to define the antisymmetric differential operator (denoted by a mirrored six) which takes (a suitably smooth functions from the manifold to one of these spaces) to (a suitably smooth function from the manifold to the next one of these spaces),
01:05:56 <wob_jonas> and the big surprise is that mirrored six composited to mirrored six turns out to be zero!
01:06:01 <wob_jonas> Also, there's some stuff with duals.
01:06:07 <wob_jonas> I dunno what I'm talking about either.
01:06:15 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Mirrored six? Isn't this one usually just written as d?
01:06:18 <wob_jonas> But I think there are nerds on the internet who do this.
01:06:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: yeah, it's a d, I'm just stupid
01:06:56 <oerjan> wob_jonas: i suppose the antisymmetric tensor product is the universal object through which you can factor antisymmetric linear functions. which might be more to shachaf's liking.
01:07:21 <wob_jonas> oerjan: uh, that sounds nice, I've no idea what it means
01:07:33 <wob_jonas> oh
01:07:43 <wob_jonas> um, dunno
01:09:13 <oerjan> it means that if you have U and V, then U /\ V is a vector space such that for any W, and any antisymmetric bilinear function f : (U, V) -> W, there is a unique g : U /\ V -> W such that f = g o (/\)
01:09:23 <oerjan> or something very close to that.
01:09:44 <oerjan> (if you dropped the antisymmetric, you'd get the usual tensor product this way)
01:10:59 <oerjan> now, the next step is to note that the basis definition fulfils this, after which you can essentially throw it away and use the universal property from there on.
01:11:14 <oerjan> oh hm
01:11:25 <oerjan> you cannot use different U and V there
01:11:47 <wob_jonas> um
01:11:49 <oerjan> which means, i guess, you need to consider all U /\ U /\ ... /\ U simultaneously
01:12:13 <oerjan> wob_jonas: antisymmetry makes no sense if you're not starting with identical vector spaces
01:12:21 <oerjan> i just realized that
01:12:23 <wob_jonas> that sounds true but I don't really understand what the point of that is. that doesn't sound like factoring, it just sounds like extending,
01:12:41 <wob_jonas> where you define the function g such that f gives its value on the basis elements of the tensor-product space
01:12:50 <oerjan> wob_jonas: well it's a category theoretical universal property, they all look like that.
01:13:01 <wob_jonas> heh
01:13:15 <wob_jonas> oerjan: but how does the antisymmetric derivative and the duality come into all this?
01:13:31 <oerjan> wob_jonas: the thing is, once you have done this, the fact that it's all invariant under basis changes becomes completely trivial
01:13:52 <wob_jonas> what? why?
01:14:26 <wob_jonas> I mean, the part where what becomes invariant?
01:14:35 <oerjan> because universal objects defined by the same universal property are automatically isomorphic.
01:15:22 <wob_jonas> what?
01:15:23 <oerjan> wob_jonas: well the universal property gives you a definition of /\ which does not speak about the basis of the original spaces
01:15:36 <wob_jonas> hmm
01:16:41 <wob_jonas> it's true that it doesn't speak about the basis of U^n, but does it completely determine the U/\.../\U space?
01:19:16 <oerjan> yes, up to isomorphism.
01:19:36 <oerjan> consider if you had two objects fulfilling this.
01:20:10 <oerjan> T1 and T2, with corresponding embeddings /\_1 and /\_2
01:20:24 <wob_jonas> ok, I'm looking what crazy category theory argument you're going to pull on me
01:20:51 <shachaf> universal properties are tg
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01:22:07 <oerjan> then note that f (v1, ..., vn) = v1 /\_2 v2 /\_ ... /\_ vn is an antisymmetric multilinear function, so by the universal property of T1, you have g : T1 -> T2 such that f = g o (... /\_1 ... /\_1 ...) (i hope you can guess what the notation means)
01:22:29 <oerjan> er missed some 2's up there
01:23:01 <oerjan> oh of course the property should also say that g is linear
01:23:20 <wob_jonas> sure, you need linearity everywhere
01:23:34 <oerjan> and the other way you get g' : T2 -> T1, and it's easy to show g and g' are inverses.
01:23:46 <oerjan> thus T1 and T2 are isomorphic.
01:24:19 <wob_jonas> yeah, something like that probably works
01:24:23 <wob_jonas> typical category theory stuff
01:24:25 <oerjan> this is just about how these arguments always go.
01:24:34 <wob_jonas> yeah
01:25:16 <wob_jonas> don't take this in a bad way, I also do such abstract arguments sometimes, I just also like the humor in how we do them instead of the more easy to understand concrete stuff it translates to
01:25:44 <shachaf> It's maybe only hard to understand because you made him spell it out.
01:25:53 <shachaf> Otherwise you can just say that it's a universal property.
01:26:02 <shachaf> Or that it's initial in some category or something.
01:26:14 <wob_jonas> that just makes it worse!
01:26:32 <shachaf> The trouble is describing the category that you care about, but you need to do that anyway, except you normally do it implicitly.
01:27:12 <oerjan> wob_jonas: of course half the point is that once you have seen one case of this, you don't really have to relearn it completely for the next case
01:27:27 <wob_jonas> sure!
01:27:38 <oerjan> so it's a one time cost, after which you can use universal properties everywhere
01:27:54 <shachaf> universal properties are the best
01:28:32 <oerjan> they're p. good
01:28:36 <wob_jonas> that's how all this abstract maths stuff works. you prove some crazy general theorem and then hope you can use it more than once
01:28:47 <shachaf> oerjan: well, they have to be the best
01:28:51 <shachaf> that's what universality is hth
01:28:52 <alercah> the pgraph minors theorem is stupid
01:28:56 <alercah> *graph
01:29:03 <shachaf> pooch graph
01:29:04 <oerjan> shachaf: well in theory they could also be the worst
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01:29:16 <shachaf> itym cobest hth
01:29:22 <oerjan> COKAY
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01:34:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ok, so was there something more specific about differential forms you wanted to know? I presume you didn't just want to find out why the wedge tensor product is well-defined.
01:35:07 <shachaf> Well, that was pretty good.
01:35:21 <shachaf> I got a book about smooth manifolds so I think maybe I'll read that.
01:35:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, but I still don't know what's up with the d operator and the duals
01:36:39 <wob_jonas> I mean, I know once you do the d o d = 0 theorem generally, you'll get about five of those basic integral theorems on R**2 and R**3 that have fancy individual names, like the Green's theorem and stuff.
01:36:56 <wob_jonas> But still.
01:37:08 <shachaf> Well, Stokes' theorem is obviously the best one.
01:37:54 <oerjan> green's theorem is like warm-up.
01:38:06 <wob_jonas> And I think one of the goals for working with differentiable functions on manifolds is to be able to define invariants of manifolds, as in topological invariants or differentiable invariants,
01:38:24 <wob_jonas> which you can use that two manifolds are not isomorphic in some way,
01:38:33 <shachaf> Is Stokes' theorem an adjunction?
01:38:49 <wob_jonas> and eventually prove rigorously that a donut isn't a sphere.
01:39:55 <wob_jonas> Not even up to homotopically equivalence.
01:40:06 <wob_jonas> Which is kind of nice to know, and pretty hard to prove otherwise I think.
01:40:19 <oerjan> wob_jonas: that's not too hard since they have different fundamental groups.
01:41:34 <oerjan> i'm not sure how much differentiable stuff helps with proving topological invariants, i didn't learn it that way.
01:42:59 <oerjan> wob_jonas: now, proving that R^m is not R^n for m/=n is a bit harder.
01:44:43 <shachaf> can you distinguish wisdom entries by their fundamental grep?
01:45:09 <oerjan> yes hth
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01:47:01 <wob_jonas> Also, I think physicists use this differentiable forms on manifolds stuff too, for some physical reasons. Maybe they want basis-invariant physical laws because they find them nicer or something.
01:51:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Malbranche]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49700 * Oerjan * (+158) Thanks!
01:52:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Malbranche]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49701&oldid=49700 * Oerjan * (+23) Um there was more
01:54:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: general relativity has coordinate-invariance as one of its fundamental principles.
01:55:48 <oerjan> and iirc, in other cases, it helps determining which properties of your physical system are really fundamental rather than just an accident of description.
01:57:22 <wob_jonas> right
01:57:44 <wob_jonas> But what I don't get is, why is the d operator actually important? Does it have some sort of universal property?
01:57:49 <oerjan> (i recall reading terry tao used differential geometry when investigating variants of fluid dynamics recently.
01:57:52 <oerjan> )
01:59:14 <wob_jonas> What is it that singles out the d operator (up to constant factor) from the other ((M->U^/\n)->(M->U^/\(n+1))) operators?
02:00:09 <oerjan> well general relativity doesn't use that d iirc, unless there's a reformulation which does
02:00:26 <oerjan> (it wasn't based on antisymmetry)
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02:01:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: it might be that dd = 0 determines it up to equivalence, or something...
02:01:40 <oerjan> also, dd= 0 is the property you want for things that define homologies.
02:02:03 <oerjan> (aka i don't really know the answer)
02:02:23 <oerjan> or wait hm
02:08:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> I thought so, but then someone in another channel said it was a Google thing. <-- sounds google to me
02:13:19 <wob_jonas> oerjan: dd = 0 can't determine it alone, you need some other property too
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02:14:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, if dd=0 is the only thing you want, then why couldn't you just move U^/\n in place with some non-singular linear transform to itself but leave the U^/\k for all k!=n alone?
02:14:59 <wob_jonas> That would change d.
02:15:43 <wob_jonas> There has to be something that treats U^/\n as more than just a vector space.
02:15:47 <oerjan> presumably stokes' theorem is what makes it important.
02:17:16 <wob_jonas> That doesn't explain anything.
02:17:21 <oerjan> oh right, de Rham's theorem is what i was looking for.
02:17:30 <wob_jonas> Why is stokes theorem important, as in, why do you want a theorem about that particular differential form?
02:18:42 <wob_jonas> De Rham's theorem? Dunno, I feel there has to be some lower level explanation than that.
02:19:06 <wob_jonas> It has to involve /\ somewhere.
02:19:35 <wob_jonas> As in /\ on the vectors, not /\ on the vector spaces.
02:19:42 <wob_jonas> Oh well, I dunno, good night.
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02:23:19 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas i mean that stokes' theorem tells you how to get d from integration, essentially.
02:23:19 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
02:24:31 <oerjan> @tell wob_jonas oh, and of course i mean the _generalized_ stokes' theorem, that includes all the special cases like green's theorem.
02:24:31 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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02:34:15 <quintopia> what fraction of all english words would you guess are ALL CAPS
02:37:13 <oerjan> <\oren\> If he wins, the cold war is over, with victory to Russia <-- you make it sound like a good thing
02:41:48 <quintopia> helloerjan
02:42:23 <oerjan> hitopia
02:42:25 <oerjan> food ->
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02:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> `? os
02:52:31 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
03:07:00 <shachaf> fizzie: Hmm, Apache Drill might be able to do it.
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03:07:37 <oerjan> drill drill baby
03:08:07 <oerjan> oops permute that
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03:16:39 <izabera> so i was testing things
03:16:51 <izabera> and i made a http request to icanhazip.com with netcat
03:17:01 <izabera> try it ^
03:18:03 <izabera> this is so cool, i'll write them
03:19:11 <shachaf> fizzie: Also I can convert to JSON and then query for many use cases.
03:19:16 <shachaf> fizzie: You recommend jq for that?
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03:37:17 <oerjan> @tell gamemanj <gamemanj> I wonder why so many people are unaffiliated? <-- it's the only cloak you can get if you're not part of a group that's officially on freenode, me thinks
03:37:17 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:38:14 <shachaf> And you might prefer to get it even if you are affiliated.
03:38:41 <oerjan> yeah i rephrased myself in the middle of writing that because of that
03:41:58 <zzo38> izabera: That work good.
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03:43:48 <zzo38> It supports headerless HTTP even; that is very good.
03:45:04 <zzo38> Now I can more easily check what is my global IP address, because I made a shell script of it.
03:45:23 <zzo38> (I have a router, so the computer's own IP address is not the same as the address accessible by internet.)
03:51:49 <zzo38> If you are using other format and then convert to JSON and then query for many use cases, is there a JavaScript module to do that with? If there is no such things on npm then I or you could add those program on
03:53:27 <pikhq> zzo38: And Chrome just deprecated HTTP/0.9, too... :)
03:54:29 <izabera> too soon
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03:55:58 <zzo38> pikhq: That shouldn't matter much since it is the client rather than the server.
03:56:41 <pikhq> True, it only really prevents Chrome from working with HTTP/0.9-only servers, while servers are still perfectly free to still support HTTP/0.9-only clients.
03:57:05 <pikhq> There's probably nearly zero HTTP/0.9-only servers. Or clients for that matter, but it's also lower impact to support for servers.
03:57:44 <zzo38> It is useful for the server to support it for use with clients that are not HTTP clients, mainly.
03:57:56 <shachaf> I'm often an HTTP/0.9 client.
03:59:03 <pikhq> And it's trivial to tell if a request is an HTTP/0.9 request, unlike for responses.
03:59:31 <pikhq> With responses, you start getting not-headers and it *might* be an HTTP/0.9 response, or it might be some server being busted.
03:59:43 <pikhq> With requests, you see the "GET" line doesn't have a verrsion number.
04:01:01 <zzo38> Yes. Making a HTTP client working with HTTP/0.9-only servers is probably a bit messy anyways, so a client should not need this functionality. It is a very useful functionality for servers to have though. (If a HTTP client does want to support HTTP/0.9-only servers too, it should probably be a user option.)
04:04:41 <zzo38> (If you don't need support for HTTP headers and stuff in your server, don't make a HTTP/0.9-only server; make a gopher server instead.)
04:05:04 <shachaf> No, no one uses Gopher.
04:05:21 <izabera> make it a http 1.0 server maybe?
04:05:34 <izabera> i heard that http 1.0 supports http 1.0 headers
04:10:34 <zzo38> Yes, you can support HTTP/0.9 and HTTP/1.0 in one server; implement both. You don't need a HTTP/0.9-only server though.
04:11:32 <pikhq> A simple HTTP/1.0 client isn't too bad either, for that matter.
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04:12:45 <zzo38> Yes, and it is a good idea for any HTTP client to support that. However, the server probably ought to support HTTP/0.9 too.
04:13:08 <pikhq> Considering HTTP/1.0 requires it from servers, I agree. :)
04:13:51 <izabera> pikhq | A simple HTTP/1.0 client isn't too bad either, for that matter. <- then why are they taking so long to develop chrome and firefox?!?
04:14:56 <pikhq> Because those do a *lot* more than HTTP/1.0.
04:15:11 <izabera> oh.
04:17:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49702 * 12Me21 * (+1928) created the page lol XD
04:18:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49703&oldid=49702 * 12Me21 * (+10) added proper file extension
04:19:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49704&oldid=49703 * 12Me21 * (-143) removed influenced because LIES
04:20:17 <\oren\> (written in BASIC)
04:20:34 <\oren\> trololo
04:20:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FuckbeEs]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49705&oldid=49704 * 12Me21 * (+0) replaced [] with the correct symbols
04:22:03 <pikhq> Hrm, I once again have an Internet-connected DOS VM.
04:22:09 <pikhq> If only I had *any* use for such a machine.
04:22:58 <shachaf> Are you in Colorado?
04:23:38 <oerjan> if e tries to edit the Main Page too, e gets a block.
04:26:04 <oerjan> admittedly featuring it _might_ have some positive effects, in theory.
04:30:17 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM
04:30:48 <\oren\> once again I have been wtching this over and over for half an hour
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04:36:52 <pikhq> shachaf: Not quite yet.
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04:39:47 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=astISOttCQ0
04:47:03 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3owVbVZNKs
04:47:06 <oerjan> @ask Taneb <Taneb> Never whence being taken as when <-- what about twice?
04:47:06 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
04:47:23 <\oren\> ok now I'm just linking crazy memes of the earyl 2000's
04:51:05 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL6CDFn2i3I
04:52:34 <zzo38> If you make up a esoteric programming language called "Main Page", then what are you going to do about it?
04:53:01 <zzo38> (Or even, a book or movie or anything called "Main Page", and if a Wikipedia article should be needed.)
04:57:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17FEtaiWdVg
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05:07:54 <oerjan> <shachaf> Cousin Itt and the Thing are really quite distinct. <-- one is handsome, the other is hair
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06:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to write the time as 24:10, would Europe scorn one?
06:58:58 <izabera> i would
06:59:03 <izabera> not sure about eu
07:01:37 <hppavilion[1]> Base prime: Given the standard functions along with the additional pmor(x) and ples(x), which return the smallest prime number greater than x and the greatest prime number less than x (fallback on 0) respectively
07:02:31 <hppavilion[1]> bprime(n) := ples(n)+(n-ples(n))/(pmor(n)-ples(n))
07:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> Wait
07:03:52 <hppavilion[1]> bprime(n) := primenum(ples(n))+(n-ples(n))/(pmor(n)-ples(n)), where primenum(p) takes a prime p and returns its index (primenum(2) = 1, primenum(3) = 2, primenum(5) = 3, 7 -> 4, 11 -> 5, 13 -> 6, etc.)
07:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, that looks right
07:04:14 <\oren\> right now it's 26:04
07:04:35 <\oren\> at least, according to my computer
07:05:32 <\oren\> irssi is displaying 06:18, I have no idea why
07:07:00 <\oren\> how does a could server end up with such a time offset
07:07:08 <\oren\> s/could/cloud/
07:13:10 <deltab> in ISO 8601, 24:00:00 is accepted for the instant at the end of a day, equivalent to 00:00:00 of the next day; but otherwise the hour can't be above 23
07:13:42 <deltab> I've heard though that tv schedulers use 06 to 30 or so
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07:33:43 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: Why?
07:34:35 <hppavilion[1]> deltab: I reformed the calendar. To distinguish dates, they are prefixed with "NRC" and the separator is "~"
07:49:59 <\oren\> I reformed the year numbering. Year 0 is 1970. this year is 46
07:54:09 <fizzie> shachaf: I recommend jq for the sort of processing I normally do with ... | sed | awk | sed | grep | perl | ... sort of overly complicated shell "oneliners", if you do have JSON data.
07:55:50 <fizzie> @tell pikhq There was at least one router with a HTTP/0.9-only admin interface, it made them pause a little. Anyway, ISTR in the end they only deprecated HTTP/0.9 for nonstandard ports for now, since that's what the security concern was (mostly) about.
07:56:29 <\oren\> @mesages-loud
07:56:47 <izabera> net split?
07:57:08 <\oren\> o no, whar iz lamdabot?
07:57:31 <fizzie> A long one.
07:59:06 <fizzie> Or, rather, my client says 28 people left due to a split, one came back, and then there's a dribble of some other people rejoining, but some are still gone.
07:59:10 <fizzie> fungot: At least you're still here.
07:59:11 <fungot> fizzie: i didnt build it; its a package from ubuntu and php homes of irc-ignorant fnord worldwide. but i think i know where quack is located......
07:59:38 <fizzie> Did you know a duck's quack doesn't echo? (That's not actually true.)
08:01:53 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3CKZqEiALE
08:02:50 <\oren\> since oerjan was complaining I decided to listen to a wider variety of music
08:06:02 <\oren\> hmm now I want to play HOI4
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08:20:26 * oerjan notes this song in \oren\'s link that has "Stalin" in nearly every line
08:25:39 * oerjan thinks that was a bit much
08:26:29 <oerjan> (to listen to)
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08:36:09 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Shouldn't the taxonomic group above Kingdom be Empire? )
08:37:06 <oerjan> taxonomic groups are so pre-cladistic, anyway
08:37:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah?
08:38:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: What about horizontal gene transfer?
08:39:15 <oerjan> can't those cross groups, anyway
08:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah
08:39:32 <izabera> what looks better https://arin.ga/JGh7kM/raw vs https://arin.ga/rREUCG/raw
08:39:40 <hppavilion[1]> (I do think we need something above Domain that just means "the beginning"; barring panspermia, it would be so we could sort Jovian life against Earth life)
08:39:49 <izabera> 3 3d arrays or 1 4d array?
08:39:59 <fizzie> According to WordNet, domain is fine: http://sprunge.us/hcfM
08:40:38 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, huh, Empire is a thing
08:40:56 <hppavilion[1]> Prokaryotes vs Eukaryotes
08:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> (spellcheck thinks "Prokaryotes" is a typo of "Protestants")
08:41:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: probably written by a catholic
08:41:53 <hppavilion[1]> There's also "Legion"
08:41:58 <fizzie> izabera: In my opinion, if you already have three indices, why not go for broke and have the fourth.
08:42:06 <izabera> yeeah
08:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> (I think we need to resort the species into Democratic Republics instead of Kingdoms)
08:45:17 <hppavilion[1]> Domain -> Kingdom -> Subkingdom -> Infrakingdom -> Superphylum -> Phylum -> Subphylum -> Infraphylum -> Microphylum -> Superclass -> Class -> Subclass -> Infraclass -> Parvclass -> Legion -> Cohort -> Magnorder -> Superorder -> Order -> Suborder -> Infraorder -> Parvorder -> Section [zoology only] -> Superfamily -> Family -> Subfamily -> Supertribe -> Tribe -> Subtribe -> Genus -> Subgenus (Church of the?) -> Section (botany only) ->
08:45:17 <hppavilion[1]> Series -> Species -> Subspecies -> Variety -> Form
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17:03:54 <zzo38> Do you like this?
17:19:29 <shachaf> Like what?
17:25:38 <zzo38> My idea to make new custom Magic: the Gathering card and do you have the idea too?
17:39:38 <zzo38> One kind of variant game I thought of would be this: There is a new pseudotype called "main" and each player will have one "main card" which is not a card or object and does not exist in any zone of the game. As a state-based action, if a main token owned by a player does not exist, create a main token owned and controlled by that player, with the characteristics of that player's main card.
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17:42:00 <zzo38> "Main" is a designation that an object has (somewhat like an object can be a "commander"), and is not a characteristic. Also as a state-based action, any main token controlled by a player different from its owner ceases to exist.
17:42:22 <zzo38> These "main card" are different from existing cards
17:46:48 <shachaf> What sorts of main tokens would there be?
17:49:16 <zzo38> I am not quite sure; of course how well game is work depends what is available. They could be any permanent, although I thought mainly some planeswalkers designed specifically to be the main cards, that need some time before you will activate the ultimate ability, although in some cases other types of permanents might also do.
17:57:16 <zzo38> If it doesn't quite work so well perhaps to add the following rule: As a special action you can destroy a main token you own. To do this costs an amount of generic mana equal to the total number of times you used this special action so far including the current instance.
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18:22:15 <\oren\> lambdabot has returned!
18:22:20 <\oren\> @botsnack
18:22:20 <lambdabot> :)
18:27:18 <Zarutian> hmm.. I am battling with one of the main problems in computer programming: naming things
18:28:07 <zzo38> Zarutian: What do you try to name?
18:28:46 <Zarutian> spefically an esoteric language that is pretty much an union of a macro system and primitive recursive functions
18:29:37 <myname> quickbooks support hotline *scnr*
18:30:23 <Zarutian> (definitions of macros must preceed their usage references to keep the language non turing complete)
18:31:21 <Zarutian> (and self referencing is not allowed)
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18:41:34 <Zarutian> so you see my problem here
18:52:24 <moonythedwarf_> Irc is the only chat i can really use when i need 1 Mbit/s for a large download :/
18:53:05 <myname> cute
18:53:52 <moonythedwarf_> Thats what i get for using Centurylink
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19:30:14 <zzo38> I think IRC is a better chat protocol than most other anyways
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19:46:42 <myname> depends on your focus
19:46:46 <myname> i prefer jabber
19:54:31 <\oren\> They should just build any new chat stuff on top of IRC
19:55:15 <\oren\> similar to the way C++ is built on top of C
19:56:42 <\oren\> but hopefully without C++'s habit of adding new systems with no advantage over the old ones
20:10:43 <fizzie> There's a Finnish magazine aimed for teenage girls, with a discussion forum for a somewhat wider audience; they used to also have a chat feature on the website; that was built on top of IRC.
20:11:27 <fizzie> I chatted briefly with the programmers, because they were curious when someone connected to the thing using an actual IRC client.
20:12:16 <fizzie> Wonder if BitlBee is still buzzing along.
20:13:25 <fizzie> Latest release 2016-03-19, so maybe not entirely dead.
20:14:30 <fizzie> Impressive, they've now got a way to use Skype that doesn't involve running an actual Skype client. (Goes via web.skype.com.)
20:15:51 <zzo38> I have used actual IRC client when I had previously found only the client included on the webpage but instead I looked at the source so that I can connect by proper IRC client instead.
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21:23:20 <hppavilion[1]> http://static02.mediaite.com/themarysue/uploads//2011/01/xmenfamilytree-labeled.jpeg confuses me...
21:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> The key has 6 options (blue solid, teal dotted, red solid, gold dotted, green solid, purple dotted)
21:24:09 <hppavilion[1]> But at the very top is red dotted
21:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> And I take it the star on several of Cyclops's offspring indicates some genetic thing? e.g. Phoenix Force?
21:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> This isn't a "read more comics" thing, it's just a "your chart is stupid" thing
21:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> "Science flies you to the moon; Religion flies you into buildings, and Science built the thing you were flying, as well as the building."
21:34:03 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is it possible for two people to have consanguinity >= 1? )
21:34:35 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Wait, no, I mean >0.5. Obviously =1 is clones (or identical twins), greater is impossible )
21:36:04 <hppavilion[1]> Has anyone developed the field of love trigonometry?
21:39:23 <wob_jonas> hppavilion: I guess the guys on TvTropes probably have
21:39:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I think possibly dotted red at top is an in-law sibling (a stepbrother in this case).
21:39:44 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Ah
21:40:06 <wob_jonas> @messages
21:42:09 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: They have http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TriangRelations, which basically just describes all possible 3-node digraphs (with no loops (but yes cycles), repeated edges, or isolated nodes)
21:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> But that's more love-graph-theory than love trigonometry
21:44:08 <hppavilion[1]> (They did it pretty well, too, by making sure to exclude isomorphic triangles and such, as they're the same situation where each person is someone else)
21:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> When I think of a love triangle, I generally think of triangle #2, which is also called the "Love Cycle"
21:45:15 <zzo38> Don't you know that All The Tropes is more better than the TV Tropes?
21:45:35 <zzo38> `? All The Tropes
21:45:41 <HackEgo> A card game where you win if you collect *all* of the tropes.
21:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: LIES
21:46:06 <hppavilion[1]> Type #3 (a War Scenario) is the traditional kind
21:46:54 <zzo38> They are not lies
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21:53:12 <int-e> hmm, tis-100 dataflow is a bit annoying, but I found the TIS-NET directory (oh no...)
22:01:02 <FireFly> is that the second set of stages?
22:01:16 <FireFly> Hmm
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22:03:20 <int-e> well there's the initial 5x5 segment map... and right now that looks like another of those indeed
22:04:29 <int-e> and I'm still missing two programs for the initial map
22:12:07 <FireFly> Which ones? I think I'm missing one
22:12:26 <int-e> exposure mask viewer and sequence sorter
22:13:01 <FireFly> Right, I don't think I implemented the sort
22:13:02 <shachaf> I should get that game running on my new computer.
22:13:28 <FireFly> I should get steam working again
22:13:31 <int-e> the latter is tedious, and the former requires juggling four values... need to try it when I'm not so tired
22:13:53 <FireFly> I should also add you on steam probably
22:15:19 <shachaf> int-e doesn't do adding or steam
22:15:35 <shachaf> Or so I heard.
22:16:12 <int-e> that's mostly true. (I have a community-free, friendless, steam account)
22:16:53 <int-e> and I've been up for 17 hours, good night
22:17:04 <FireFly> Ah
22:17:12 <FireFly> 'night, int-e
22:20:54 <fizzie> I'm missing 'sequence mode calculator' still, it seems.
22:21:16 <fizzie> Everything else in both things are nominal.
22:21:30 <fizzie> I think I had some pretty awful solutions for some stuff, though.
22:22:35 <fizzie> Exposure mask viewer was pretty simple, I think.
22:23:10 <fizzie> But my sequence sorter is something really crufty.
22:24:51 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
22:25:08 <fizzie> 8 nodes and 91 instructions; my one friend on the list has 4 and 57, respectively.
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22:28:12 <shachaf> My solutions are embarrassing.
22:28:20 <shachaf> I should jam some more later.
22:28:24 <fizzie> That's how I feel about mine.
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22:47:46 <quintopia> i have no idea what all that means
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23:02:14 <fizzie> It's a game.
23:02:22 <fizzie> http://www.zachtronics.com/tis-100/
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23:42:28 <zzo38> I have tried things and failed to figure out how to make a add-on for Node.js
23:43:08 <Taneb> I auditioned for a web video series and got a part!
23:44:03 <zzo38> There is FFI, but that is slow
23:44:11 <Taneb> I think now I'm going to bed
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