←2016-10-03 2016-10-04 2016-10-05→ ↑2016 ↑all
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00:15:16 <hppavilion[1]> Huh.
00:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Ada Lovelace was the (legitimate) offspring of Lord Byron
00:15:33 <hppavilion[1]> The Epitaph to a Dog guy.
00:15:35 <hppavilion[1]> Cool.
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00:29:44 <boily> `wisdom
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00:37:51 <boily> fungot: is CAO down?
00:37:52 <fungot> boily: a. i don't think i answer those, ihope. i yield to you.
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00:37:59 <boily> fungot: damn.
00:37:59 <fungot> boily: i just don't like how... weird... and doesn't make a difference yes? says who??? fnord ( car list)
00:38:13 <boily> fungot: well, I like that server. that's the closest one.
00:38:13 <fungot> boily: i dont think i have now spend more time typing than thinking, i'm doing work"? i'm impressed if you think about this in the mzscheme compiler manual
00:38:57 <boily> fungot: no, I think in French. messemble que depuis le temps c't'assez évident...
00:38:57 <fungot> boily: laml is neat, kipple, axo,...? yeah, i think.
00:39:14 <boily> fungot: no, a kipple is not French hth
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00:41:12 <boily> “It's not just you! http://crawl.akrasiac.org looks down from here.” thanks downforeveryoneorjustme.com!
00:41:41 <hppavilion[1]> boily: is "chicken" several of "chicke"?
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00:43:30 <boily> hppavellon[1]. no, it undergoes vowel-mutation. singular is checkan.
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00:43:38 <boily> hellørjan! do you mutate?
00:43:46 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Ah, but what's the dual?
00:43:56 <boily> chickenayim.
00:43:59 <oerjan> helloily! constantly!
00:44:06 <oerjan> very slowly, though.
00:44:16 <boily> . o O ( there seems to be a pun in there, but where... )
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00:44:36 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( We need an enhanced plural schema for english with distinct rules for infinite cardinals )
00:44:55 <oerjan> it wasn't conscious, but _maybe_ you could say "constant" is the opposite of "mutating".
00:45:41 <hppavilion[1]> English also needs indefinite form- not singular or plural or dual; no grammatical number at all
00:46:24 <hppavilion[1]> So, like, if the schema is +ae, the indefinite of dog would be dogae, which means 1 (or should it be 0?) or more dog(s)
00:47:21 <oerjan> modified english is the brainfuck derivative of conlangs hth
00:51:20 <ais523> except it's less easy to implement
00:52:05 <ais523> that said, surprisingly many BF derivatives have non-nesting [] because the author couldn't figure out how to implement them
00:52:26 <ais523> (in at least one case, this is for a good reason as the derivative was created to prove another language TC; it was replaced by a conditional goto)
00:54:05 <boily> which language is the most surprisingly TC?
00:54:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well yeah...
00:54:47 <hppavilion[1]> boily: /// maybe?
00:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh my god #esoteric is discussing esolangs... weird...)
00:55:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Even better, which language is the most surprisingly ¬TC
00:57:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Though, I wasn't going for a conlang modifying english; more for making people use it under pain of glaring so it's just part of english
01:03:18 <hppavilion[1]> I want to create a company for which the name violates English order of adjectives...
01:03:45 <oerjan> @ssages?
01:03:45 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
01:03:52 <oerjan> ais523: ^ >:)
01:04:02 <ais523> that's cheating :-P
01:04:56 <oerjan> @messes?
01:04:56 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
01:05:12 <shachaf> 10:08 <shachaf> @messes-loud
01:05:30 <oerjan> @messages-
01:05:30 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
01:05:39 <oerjan> shachaf: FAIL
01:06:02 <oerjan> (i assume we're golfing)
01:06:19 <shachaf> Golfing what?
01:06:26 <oerjan> lambdabot commands
01:06:26 <shachaf> That question made no sense.
01:06:37 <shachaf> It was obvious what you were golfing.
01:07:02 <shachaf> I don't know why I wrote it.
01:07:06 <shachaf> The point was I wasn't golfing.
01:07:26 <shachaf> 15:53:17 <shachaf> @messageese-loud
01:07:56 <oerjan> @messages-lousy
01:07:56 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
01:12:09 * boily needs his dose of crawl, fungot it!
01:14:36 <tswett> Man, I love ///.
01:15:40 <oerjan> fungot?
01:15:40 <fungot> oerjan: four files: fnord, which might be very sensitive to medications).
01:16:10 <oerjan> fungot: has boily been overusing you
01:16:10 <fungot> oerjan: scheme48 has immutable objects in general. i'm spending a lot of work
01:17:09 <oerjan> @@ @messages-
01:17:09 <lambdabot> Plugin `compose' failed with: user error (Unknown command: "messages-")
01:17:14 * boily pokes fungot
01:17:14 <fungot> boily: would you /please/ stop playing with me... i am not sure whether they're _required_ to have constant time....
01:17:23 <boily> BWAH AH AH AH AH AH AH :D
01:17:42 <oerjan> definitely overused.
01:20:32 <tswett> Say.
01:20:53 <tswett> Y'all know about MegaHAL. It's that one chatterbot you can download and play with, that was created in 1998.
01:21:29 <tswett> Is there a more modern chatterbot that you can also download and train and run locally?
01:22:00 <oerjan> fungot hth
01:22:00 <fungot> oerjan: someone drank all the milk again, have you got any nice stuff :) forthers would say that the branches are mutually exclusive sounds more restrictive than doing the 32-bit math in the first
01:22:26 <oerjan> fungot: i have coke zero
01:22:27 <fungot> oerjan: i'm sure you can try ideologies, but be extremely rigid on the ones where you press combinations of keys are mutually exclusive in style.
01:23:15 <boily> fungot: I make a mean Hong Kong style milk tea, if you want to stay awake for the next 12 hours.
01:23:15 <fungot> boily: it's so straight-forward i'm not even in that movie a dozen times. always the same. i think his solution is quite workable for individual use or in other words
01:24:49 <wob_jonas> welcome back, fungot
01:24:49 <fungot> wob_jonas: or maybe ,trace fnord/ fnord/ images/ fnord
01:25:02 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i made `hurl hth
01:25:11 <boily> `? hurl
01:25:12 <HackEgo> hurl? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:25:39 <shachaf> `cat bin/hurl
01:25:40 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
01:25:44 <wob_jonas> hurl hurl hur
01:26:01 <shachaf> `doag bin/hurl
01:26:04 <HackEgo> 2016-10-02 <oerjan> ` cp bin/{,h}url; sed -i \'11s/file/log/\' bin/hurl
01:26:07 <oerjan> it is the same as `url except for a single word
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01:26:37 <shachaf> `url bin/hurl
01:26:37 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/hurl
01:26:48 <oerjan> `hurl bin/url
01:26:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/tip/bin/url
01:27:33 <shachaf> are you invalidating all my dog work
01:28:23 <boily> does a pooch have the Buddha-nature?
01:28:25 <oerjan> shachaf: not necessarily. sometimes the log for a file is a bit too long to browse on irc, is all.
01:28:49 <oerjan> also the web browser seems to leave out obvious edits :(
01:28:53 <shachaf> are you invalidating all my dog work and all my spam work
01:29:16 <oerjan> YES BECAUSE I'M EVIL *MWAHAHAHA*
01:29:28 <oerjan> (sometimes you can't win so better go for the carnage)
01:29:42 <shachaf> \texrb *\rainbow{MWAHAHAHA}*
01:29:45 <shachaf> oops
01:29:47 * ybden plays with fungot
01:29:47 <fungot> ybden: a very general answer; i'm looking for one that's simple to understand.
01:29:53 <shachaf> that's embarrassing
01:29:55 <shachaf> *MWAHAHAHA*
01:30:22 * ybden plays with fungot some more
01:30:22 <fungot> ybden: probably someone's done one already
01:30:29 <ybden> fungot: done one what?
01:30:29 <fungot> ybden: " reiserfs the file system to die for! and especially to evaluate in your head, everywhere you need to duplicate the lines then. sorry, once again we return to a non-extended one would wipe away the original text :)
01:30:44 <ybden> D: it was indeed a file system to die for, for some
01:31:02 <ybden> fungot: you say some worrying things
01:31:02 <fungot> ybden: oh, i'm just a coop stuck with the lamest parts of the pre-scheme source code for it
01:31:09 <ybden> fungot: I see.
01:31:30 <ybden> *silence*
01:33:02 <boily> ybdellon. once you reach the fungothreshold, he won't answer to you. somebody else has to summon him between runs.
01:33:02 <fungot> boily: that was fast. almost at fnord packing up. hrmph.), sieni_. would you refer to is all part of the set!
01:33:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> Hmm, I want to call it rowg. But that's ambiguous between dowg and howg <-- drwg hth
01:34:01 <shachaf> oerjan: But that doesn't sound like "rogue".
01:34:58 <oerjan> shocking
01:39:38 <tswett> fungot: are you a MegaHAL?
01:39:39 <fungot> tswett: mmm sounds like it involves robotic breasts. college of engineering.
01:40:19 <izalove> this bot is getting better and better every day
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01:42:24 <wob_jonas> fungot, are you improving?
01:42:25 <fungot> wob_jonas: 1 gregorr: bf8 isn't harmfull
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01:43:21 <hppavilion[1]> Challenge: Produce a mathematical generalization of the 12 days of christmas
01:44:48 <izalove> a for loop...?
01:45:16 <boily> fungot: uhm... you want to have, robotic breasts?
01:45:16 <fungot> boily: then it rejects all functions that don't return, tco falls into place, though. do you plan to support paredit.el for xemacs as well?
01:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: No?
01:49:17 <izalove> two nested for loops?
01:49:28 -!- adu has joined.
01:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: I'm looking for a generalization
01:53:49 <izalove> what does that mean?
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01:57:21 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
01:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> adu!
01:58:06 <adu> I'm starting to hate LDAP
02:00:40 <hppavilion[1]> LDAP??
02:01:30 <adu> yes
02:03:38 <adu> I need to organize the configuration of Servers, Flavors, Users, and Groups.
02:03:40 <hppavilion[1]> adu: What is LDAP
02:03:55 <adu> oh you don't know what it is
02:03:58 <shachaf> low density audio platform hth
02:04:14 <adu> "Lightweight Directory Access Protocol"
02:04:39 <shachaf> long and delicate pincers
02:06:17 <adu> shachaf: that's LADP
02:06:28 <shachaf> so it is
02:06:33 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you a windows person?
02:06:41 <izalove> are you a person?
02:06:44 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, unfortunately
02:06:50 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: THAT IS NOT YOUR DOMAIN TO KNOW
02:06:55 <shachaf> large distracted antwerp pooch
02:06:56 <adu> hppavilion[1]: ahh, then you might recognize "Active Directory"
02:06:59 * moonythedwarf runs around in circles
02:07:54 <wob_jonas> list detected active protocols
02:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> How to troll brits with numbers: Follow these rules: (1) If '0' is 'oh', then 1 is 'el', 5 is 'es'; say 'single oh' every time there's a zero (along with 'double oh'); express everything as its prime factorization
02:09:35 <shachaf> long distance argumentative parrot
02:10:05 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with Active Directory?
02:10:07 <shachaf> That sounds like a good post for your Twitter account.
02:10:09 <hppavilion[1]> Nope
02:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I got blocked because I look like a bot, remember
02:10:26 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with the concept of a "User"
02:10:34 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yes.
02:10:40 <tswett> Wouldn't it be great if C# supported generic generic parameters?
02:10:41 <hppavilion[1]> Should I just google LDAP?
02:10:46 <adu> hppavilion[1]: LDAP is a "User" Database
02:10:48 <shachaf> And so you continue the same behavior in IRC?
02:10:58 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I think I get it
02:11:01 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...yes?
02:11:06 * moonythedwarf sends hppavilion[1] around in circles
02:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> :,
02:11:14 <hppavilion[1]> *:,(
02:11:23 <tswett> public abstract class Monad<M<>> { public abstract M<T> Join<T>(M<M<T>> input); ... }
02:11:52 <shachaf> You're ...ing return because you can't type it?
02:12:34 <tswett> public abstract M<T> Return<T>(T input);
02:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> Serious question: Is there an equivalent to the FLA for HCNs?
02:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> (e.g. "all numbers can be expressed as a quotient of HCNs")
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02:14:22 * tswett looks up what that stuff is on Wikipedia.
02:14:23 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highly_composite_number
02:14:35 <tswett> By FLA, do you mean the Fundamental Theory of Arithmetic?
02:16:17 <oerjan> . o O ( /kickban hppavilion[1] Obvious bot )
02:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Theorem, but yes
02:17:20 <shachaf> Fundamental Law of Arithmetic, surely
02:17:47 <shachaf> The theorem is this: The positive naturals are a free commutative monoid generated by the primes under multiplication.
02:17:51 <tswett> Oops, my fallibility is showing.
02:18:24 <tswett> shachaf: damn it. I read as far as "the theorem is this" and decided to one-up you by giving *my* favorite statement of the theorem...
02:18:45 <zzo38> What is your statement, then?
02:19:03 <tswett> And then I realized that what you said *is* my favorite statement (more or less).
02:19:16 <zzo38> OK
02:19:29 <tswett> Here's how I like to phrase it:
02:19:46 <tswett> "The commutative monoid of the positive integers under multiplication is a free commutative monoid."
02:20:14 <tswett> Same thing, really.
02:20:48 <shachaf> Maybe I should have moved "under multiplication" nine words earlier.
02:22:21 <tswett> I left out "generated by the primes" because you can just define the primes as being the generators.
02:22:48 <shachaf> You mean you can figure it out.
02:23:01 <shachaf> But the point of the theorem is that it's what you get after you figure it out.
02:24:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh, yes, FTA
02:24:46 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You can fix that by becoming pope
02:25:04 <hppavilion[1]> Another thing I thought of offhand today: orders of composite numbers
02:25:12 <tswett> I guess what I'm unintentionally suggesting is that you could first prove the FTA, and then use the FTA to define the prime numbers.
02:25:20 <hppavilion[1]> A first-order composite number is a prime number (...yeah, sorry)
02:25:40 <tswett> "The positive integers under multiplication are a free commutative monoid. Define the prime numbers as the generators of this monoid."
02:25:43 <shachaf> Certainly, if you generate a free monoid from a countably infinite set, what you get is isomorphic to the positive naturals under multiplication.
02:25:45 <hppavilion[1]> An nth-order composite number is an (n-1)th-order composite number times a first-order composite number
02:26:08 <shachaf> But if you already know the positive naturals, and you already know the primes, then telling you that those primes in particular generate the positive naturals is pretty good.
02:26:13 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so an nth-order composite number is a number with exactly n prime factors?
02:26:33 <hppavilion[1]> (this is equivalent to saying that the composite order of a number is the cardinality of the bag of its prime factors)
02:26:36 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yes
02:26:39 <tswett> Yeah, that.
02:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, is there a prime factorial function? Or, more accurately, there is a prime factorial function, but does it have any use?
02:27:54 <hppavilion[1]> x‽ = product({p : p ≤ x, p in |P})
02:28:11 <tswett> I think that's called the primorial function.
02:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Really or in an #esoteric way?
02:28:34 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, yep
02:28:37 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primorial
02:28:47 <shachaf> Sylvan Primordial
02:28:58 <tswett> "In general for a positive integer n {\displaystyle n} n, a primorial n # {\displaystyle n\#} {\displaystyle n\#} can also be defined, namely as the product of those primes ≤ n {\displaystyle n} n:"
02:29:03 <tswett> I apologize for the wonky copy-paste.
02:29:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: hey, I have a random question for you.
02:29:54 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You may proceed
02:30:11 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: do you have any thoughts as to where you want to start your career?
02:30:20 <tswett> Like, software development, mathematics research, something else?
02:30:26 <shachaf> That question has a rather big assumption, doesn't it?
02:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> NO idea
02:31:15 <tswett> shachaf: that hppavilion[1] wants to have a career?
02:31:24 <shachaf> I don't even know what a career is.
02:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> There's more potential for success in private sector dev, but I'm drawn to academics on... almost moral grounds
02:32:15 <shachaf> i,i not a career in the world
02:32:32 <shachaf> Your sense of morality has already been established to be very suspect.
02:32:43 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I kind of feel like I'm doomed to eventually go to grad school.
02:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Excellent
02:32:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iovoid * New user account
02:33:01 <shachaf> Uh oh.
02:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, I want to be Dr. Naþan, so...)
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02:33:44 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think my industry experience is going to be really valuable if I ever want to do business-oriented research.
02:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> Yep
02:34:14 <tswett> It's easier to design a business-oriented programming language if you have experience doing business-oriented programming..
02:34:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Apparently there are two conflicting definitions of primorial- one is what I said above, the other is the product of the first n primes. I'm already developing strong opinions on it.)
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02:43:47 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I know. The primorial function should be a function PrimeCut -> N, where PrimeCut is the collection of all downward closed sets of prime numbers.
02:51:18 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, norway doesn't even have a legal minimum wage
02:52:08 <izalove> neither does italy
02:53:07 <zzo38> I think it is OK a minimum wage should not be needed
02:53:19 <oerjan> shachaf: see, your minimum wage is only a half-assed compensation for the fact you don't have properly powerful labor unions hth
02:53:43 <shachaf> oerjan: the government is the most powerful labor union of all hth
02:53:47 <shachaf> except it's not very good
02:53:51 <shachaf> at labor unioning
02:55:07 <oerjan> it doesn't count as a labor union if the employers have more say than the laborers hth
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03:10:37 <shachaf> what if british banks have the most say
03:10:43 <shachaf> does it count as a libor union
03:11:19 <shachaf> oerjan: do you think the us minimum wage should be raised
03:12:03 <oerjan> my prejudices say yes.
03:12:15 <oerjan> my actual knowledge is insufficient hth
03:12:29 <ais523> I know that I decided to do some amateur economics that's probably terrible in the wake of Brexit
03:13:05 <ais523> and concluded that in response to Brexit, the UK minimum wage should probably be increased, with a reduction in corporation tax to compensate
03:13:18 <ais523> then I was surprised to see that many actual economists had come to the same conclusion
03:13:23 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think about the tipped employee minimum wage exception
03:13:44 <oerjan> scowissimus hth
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03:14:02 <ais523> shachaf: I think it's ridiculous, I don't like the idea of peoples' livelihoods depending on customs rather than actual rules
03:14:12 <shachaf> anyway it doesn't apply in california
03:14:23 <ais523> in the UK, tipping at restaurants is rare apart from very high-end ones
03:14:39 <ais523> like, if someone takes your order while you're seated, then later physically delivers your food
03:14:43 <alercah> it doesn't directly depend on custom though
03:14:43 <ais523> tipping would be usual
03:14:45 <shachaf> even where it does apply, the minimum wage is the lower bound, with the employer having to pay the difference if necessary
03:14:53 <alercah> ^
03:15:00 <alercah> that said, the US minimum wage is a joke
03:15:03 <shachaf> but it's still scow
03:15:17 <shachaf> ais523: How did you come to that conclusion?
03:15:17 <izalove> would you star a repo called silver-giggle?
03:15:20 <izalove> on github
03:15:38 <shachaf> you wouldn't star a scow
03:15:53 <izalove> i'm wondering how popular i'd be if i created repos with the names github suggested
03:16:15 <alercah> ais523: I'm headed to England for the weeked (... stupid, I know), is tipping like that only for high end restaurants, or just anywhere where there is sit-down service?
03:16:32 <alercah> (fwiw I have stopped tipping at restaurants that do not offer full sit-down service. I feel the need to draw the line)
03:16:52 <alercah> so many places have started asking for tips because it's just a configuration option on the credit card machine
03:17:09 <ais523> alercah: has to be fairly high-end
03:17:24 <ais523> also the usual tip is approximately 10% but it's common to round it so that the total price paid is a round number
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03:17:35 <ais523> so it might be 9% or 11% depending on the exact price of the meal
03:17:58 <shachaf> I think in the US the standard restaurant tip is ~20%.
03:18:56 <ais523> (nobody would be annoyed if you didn't round it; it's just usual to do so)
03:19:31 <shachaf> The UK minimum wage seems to be higher than the US's but lower than California's. Of course it's hard to compare these things.
03:19:43 <shachaf> My impression of UK software engineer wages was that they're very low compared to the US, but I don't know whether that's true.
03:19:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49854&oldid=49847 * Iovoid * (+222)
03:19:51 <shachaf> Maybe comparing to silly valley is unfair.
03:20:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49855 * Iovoid * (+1151) Created page for VoidLang
03:20:40 <alercah> it is, partly because silicon valley wages are high due to living costs
03:20:55 <alercah> (seriously, try adjusting the wages for cost of living and, while still quite high, they are far more reasonable)
03:21:16 <alercah> shachaf: here, the standard tip is 15-20% depending who you ask
03:21:22 <alercah> but traditionally this is on the pre-tax price
03:21:34 <alercah> nowadays the credit card machines do it for you, but they apply it to the total prie
03:21:41 <shachaf> Well, if wages scale linearly with cost of living, then it makes sense to live in the most expensive place you can find.
03:21:43 <alercah> so a lot of people started tipping more without knowing it
03:22:34 <shachaf> scow stipping
03:22:45 <alercah> yeah tipping is dumb
03:22:49 <alercah> just kill it
03:22:51 <alercah> outlaw it
03:22:57 <shachaf> so is cow tipping
03:24:15 <ais523> <shachaf> Well, if wages scale linearly with cost of living, then it makes sense to live in the most expensive place you can find. ← that might explain London :-P
03:24:45 <ais523> London has a semi-serious issue in that housing there is in such high demand for people who work high-paying jobs in the captial
03:24:53 <shachaf> is London more expensive than the san franciscow bay area?
03:25:24 <ais523> that all the people who work support jobs, people like shelf stackers and doctors and the like, can't afford to live there on their smaller salaries
03:26:12 <ais523> london is probably less expensive than san fransisco
03:26:18 <ais523> but it's basically like a transport/housing black hole
03:26:32 <shachaf> Do UK doctors make much less money than US doctors? I think I might've heard someone say that once.
03:26:33 <ais523> a house anywhere where it's possible to commute to London to do a job is more expensive as a result
03:26:40 <ais523> even if the commute is ridiculous
03:26:50 <shachaf> How much is typical London rent?
03:27:39 <ais523> average price to buy for a flat is £494,329
03:27:43 <ais523> it's harder to figure out the renting value
03:27:52 <shachaf> @google 494329 GBP in USD
03:27:53 <lambdabot> No Result Found.
03:27:58 <shachaf> That used to work.
03:28:03 <alercah> San Francisco is the most expensive housing in the world IIRC
03:28:10 <alercah> SF refuses to permit densification
03:28:15 <shachaf> That's pretty expensive, but it would be quite cheap in San Francisco.
03:28:28 <alercah> so the prices are skyrocketing because the supply is limited by the arbitrary rules about how high you can build
03:29:25 <ais523> it seems like most rental prices in London are in the £1000-2000 range
03:29:35 <ais523> per month, that is
03:30:24 <ais523> and £12000 per year is a plausible salary for someone's first job after graduating university
03:30:51 <shachaf> That seems like practically minimum wage.
03:30:59 <shachaf> I think a 1-bedroom apartment in Berkeley, where I live, would be in that range.
03:31:03 <ais523> well a huge proportion of the country goes to university
03:31:14 <shachaf> Probably toward the mid-upper end of the range unless you get a cheap one?
03:31:50 <ais523> minimum wage in the UK varies by age: for 21-24 year olds it's £6.95
03:31:54 <ais523> per hour
03:31:55 <zzo38> Does anything support the "Accept-Features" HTTP header?
03:32:22 <ais523> at 40 hours per week for 45 weeks, that's £12510
03:32:22 <shachaf> i,i Accept-Features: Accept-Features
03:32:46 <ais523> wow, no wonder early graduate employment is in a mess
03:33:56 <ais523> also, apprentices only have to be paid £3.40 per hour in the first year of their apprenticeship, that seems very low
03:34:02 <ais523> https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-rates for anyone who wants to look up the numbers
03:34:17 <alercah> ais523: it's also 50 weeks on this continent
03:34:47 <ais523> I was guessing at the amount of holiday allowance
03:35:04 <ais523> also, the amount of time spent looking for jobs when one fixed-term job after another ends
03:35:16 <ais523> (only slightly bitter about that…)
03:35:21 <ais523> I've applied for a couple of jobs but haven't heard back for weeks
03:35:31 <shachaf> What sorts of jobs?
03:36:02 <ais523> academic jobs, one in teaching, one in research
03:36:12 <ais523> both fields where I have experience
03:37:29 <alercah> ais523: do you not have public insurance for the in-between-jobs periods?
03:38:00 <ais523> alercah: yes, but it comes with a huge number of restrictions
03:38:06 <ais523> and the amount isn't that great
03:38:10 <ais523> I was hoping to avoid it
03:38:21 <ais523> but might be forced into it if the jobs take much longer
03:38:36 <ais523> (one of the requirements is that you have to spend much of your time applying for jobs, including ones that are a terrible fit)
03:39:00 <shachaf> Why do you want to stay in Birmingham?
03:39:02 <alercah> ahh, I believe that's not the case here; you are not expected to switch fields
03:39:26 <alercah> also if you haven't heard back in weeks it's not unreasonable to follow up
03:39:49 <ais523> shachaf: I'm really bad at travelling and living in unfamiliar places
03:39:51 <ais523> I haven't moved house /ever/
03:40:12 <ais523> other people have moved out, but I just stayed
03:40:32 <shachaf> And you also don't want to become good at it?
03:40:36 <ais523> and when I've been abroad for conferences and the like it's been terrible
03:40:45 <alercah> why terrible?
03:40:50 <alercah> lack of routine?
03:40:51 <shachaf> What an odd thing. My family moved around probably every few years when I was young.
03:41:23 <ais523> alercah: sometimes I have problems doing even basic tasks in unfamiliar environments
03:41:38 <ais523> I almost starved to death while in France because I have food intolerances and most of the food would have triggered one or another
03:41:45 <alercah> oh, ouch :(
03:41:47 <ais523> or, well, that's an exaggeration
03:41:55 <ais523> I had enough food to live off but it was a very repetitive diet
03:41:57 <alercah> I have enough food allergies that I understand what you mean
03:42:04 <ais523> I basically lived off BLT sandwiches and crisps
03:42:26 <shachaf> I couldn't remember whether crisps are "chips" or "crackers".
03:42:29 <shachaf> I guess they're "chips".
03:42:35 <alercah> yes
03:42:38 <ais523> "potato chips" in US English, yes
03:43:02 <shachaf> poochtato
03:43:04 <alercah> ais523: I think that it is something that takes getting used to
03:44:18 <ais523> the other thing is that Birmingham is almost exactly the right size for me
03:44:29 <alercah> that is a handy feature
03:44:31 <ais523> it has a good variety of places within walking distance, for example
03:44:33 <alercah> I wish KW were slightly larger
03:44:38 <alercah> or more accurately
03:44:44 <alercah> slightly more people in the same area
03:44:58 <shachaf> Kitchener-Waterloo?
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03:45:48 <shachaf> San Francisco is so small.
03:46:00 <shachaf> It's not even the biggest city by population in the San Francisco Bay area.
03:46:50 <Cale> Hm, I never really had that thought when I was there :)
03:47:05 <Cale> (assuming you're talking about Kitchener-Waterloo)
03:48:17 <shachaf> kitchen 'er water loo? i 'ardly know 'er!
03:49:20 <shachaf> Maybe I should visit Toronto.
03:49:23 <shachaf> I hear it's a good place.
03:51:09 <\oren\> five hours till 10 AM in berlin
03:51:29 <\oren\> wikileaks approaching tick tock
03:51:35 <shachaf> Kitchener used to be called Berlin
03:51:54 <shachaf> Until 1916
03:52:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Black]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49856&oldid=49117 * Ais523 * (+156) /* C */ mirror of Blak
03:53:03 <alercah> shachaf: yes, kitchener-waterloo
03:53:16 <alercah> Cale: that KW could be denser?
03:53:21 <shachaf> ais523: Have you considered some sort of software type of job? I hear they're good.
03:53:37 <shachaf> (I'm not sure I actually hear that. I mostly hear people complaining about them.)
03:54:03 <ais523> shachaf: considered it, yes
03:54:13 <ais523> if the current jobs fall through then that's my fallback
03:57:19 <shachaf> I think I worked in the same building as Don Woods once.
03:57:26 <shachaf> But I suspect his job was not related to INTERCAL.
03:57:32 <izalove> guess the next term 3 7 13 31 61 127 251
03:57:38 <shachaf> 0
03:57:45 <izalove> guess again
03:57:47 <shachaf> 0
03:57:55 <izalove> you're eliminated
03:58:07 <ais523> hmm, let's let lambdabot have a guess
03:58:09 <shachaf> izalove: http://slbkbs.org/math-diff-2-4.txt hth
03:58:13 <ais523> @oeis 3 7 13 31 61 127 251
03:58:14 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A014234 Largest prime <= 2^n.
03:58:14 <lambdabot> [2,3,7,13,31,61,127,251,509,1021,2039,4093,8191,16381,32749,65521,131071,262...
03:58:25 <ais523> izalove: lambdabot guesses 509
03:58:41 <izalove> how does lambdabot find it?
03:59:00 <izalove> it's not even in the first page of results on oeis.org
03:59:03 <ais523> basically it just searches in a huge database of sequences
03:59:29 <izalove> i know what oeis is
03:59:37 <\oren\> @oeis 12 34 56 78 90
03:59:37 <lambdabot> Sequence not found.
03:59:40 <shachaf> Sure it is.
03:59:42 <shachaf> http://oeis.org/search?q=3%2C7%2C13%2C31%2C61%2C127%2C251
04:00:00 <izalove> oh it works with commas
04:00:02 <ais523> http://oeis.org/search?q=3%2C7%2C13%2C31%2C61%2C127%2C251&language=english&go=Search
04:00:09 <ais523> right, commas
04:00:13 <\oren\> @oeis 12 34
04:00:15 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A035485 Card on top of deck at n-th stage of R. K. Guy's sh...
04:00:15 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,1,6,5,9,1,4,2,16,10,12,14,23,16,18,20,17,27,30,33,38,10,14,37,32,6,11...
04:00:21 <\oren\> @oeis 12 34 56
04:00:22 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A059805 Natural numbers written with digits grouped in pair...
04:00:22 <lambdabot> [12,34,56,78,91,1,11,21,31,41,51,61,71,81,92,2,12,22,32,42,52,62,72,82,93,3,...
04:00:47 <ais523> I was going to say, that sequence doesn't have an obvious way to continue indefinitely
04:00:52 <ais523> but it looks like OEIS knew of one
04:00:53 <shachaf> @oeis 01 23 45 67 89
04:00:54 <lambdabot> Sequence not found.
04:01:26 <\oren\> @oeis 3 1 4 1 5
04:01:39 <lambdabot> https://oeis.org/A000796 Decimal expansion of Pi (or, digits of Pi).
04:01:39 <lambdabot> [3,1,4,1,5,9,2,6,5,3,5,8,9,7,9,3,2,3,8,4,6,2,6,4,3,3,8,3,2,7,9,5,0,2,8,8,4,1...
04:02:14 <ais523> shachaf: re the minimum wage rise / corporation tax cut, my reasoning was that it's logical that if you're being protectionist wrt workers, you'd want to ensure that all the jobs were filled via increasing pay, as you can't rely on migrant workers any more
04:03:42 <\oren\> I prefer mercantilism to protectionism. Buy cheap and sell dear, on the level of nationstates
04:04:23 <shachaf> i,i buy sheep and sell deer
04:05:05 <ais523> \oren\: I didn't want to make a judgement as to whether protectionism was a good thing, just work out how you'd have to adjust things in the likely event that it's implemented
04:05:25 <izalove> shachaf: a little topological group representation theory is not amiss if you happen to end up a quantum mechanic, repairing other peoples' quanta when they begin to wear out
04:05:27 <izalove> i lold
04:05:47 <\oren\> if you can mak sure you sell lots of finished goods and buy only raw materials, then money will flow into your country...
04:06:30 <ais523> \oren\: well the UK's exports are mostly services
04:08:08 <shachaf> \oren\: Is money flowing into your country a good thing?
04:08:24 <shachaf> Money isn't even real.
04:09:00 <shachaf> If real world goods are flowing out of your country and in return some numbers get bigger, is that really to your advantage?
04:09:06 <\oren\> yes. if your country has more money, then on average everyone in your country has more moeny
04:09:47 <shachaf> But money is still not real.
04:10:22 <\oren\> in the time of mercantilism, moeny was gold
04:10:39 <shachaf> Well, at least you can't print gold.
04:11:19 <\oren\> you could do a similar thing creating a policy where your country is gathering large amounts of any valuable thing
04:11:34 <\oren\> gold happened to be the thing in the 1800's
04:12:01 <\oren\> most countries still have their gold reserves
04:12:12 <shachaf> \oren\: What do you think of this crackpot-sounding PDF? http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
04:12:17 <shachaf> (It starts at page 11.)
04:12:35 <\oren\> but gold is no longer that useful
04:12:35 <shachaf> It says some things that are obviously problematic, but I'm not sure what to make of the overall idea.
04:12:47 <shachaf> Gold has never been that useful.
04:12:53 <\oren\> I would recommend that countries gather plutonium
04:13:04 <Cale> alercah: yeah, I mean, there are obviously denser cities, but I didn't feel like it was too sparse or anything... there always seemed to be plenty of stuff to do.
04:13:20 <shachaf> Cale: What did you think of New York?
04:13:22 <izalove> shachaf: ooh you're the author
04:13:24 <shachaf> Wait, were you in NY or Boston?
04:13:26 <shachaf> izalove: ?
04:13:28 <izalove> and jsgif is cool
04:13:30 <\oren\> plutonium stockpiles are very valuable to a country
04:13:31 <izalove> your site
04:13:35 <shachaf> izalove: I'm not the author of that text.
04:13:39 <izalove> okk
04:13:42 <shachaf> There's a reference at the top.
04:13:47 <shachaf> It's from a book.
04:13:48 <izalove> you're the author of the description for jsgif?
04:14:07 <shachaf> I thought you were talking about the excerpt from _Mathematics Made Difficult_
04:14:14 <alercah> Cale: It's not bad if you have a car
04:14:15 <shachaf> Which is a good book.
04:14:23 <shachaf> Cale: Did you read that book?
04:14:37 <izalove> do you have a blog?
04:14:38 <alercah> right now, with the construction, travelling by foot/bus is pretty bad
04:15:24 <\oren\> shachaf: well gold used to be useful because eveyone used it as money
04:15:34 <Cale> shachaf: New York is fun to visit, but it's a bit stressful.
04:15:55 <\oren\> you could make a case for countries to crate large stockpiles of american dollars...
04:16:09 <Cale> shachaf: I've been to both NYC and Boston in somewhat recent times
04:16:12 <shachaf> Here's a PDF (25MB): http://i7-dungeon.sourceforge.net/math_hard.pdf
04:16:17 <\oren\> or other "safe" currencies
04:16:34 <alercah> agreed re NYC
04:18:17 <shachaf> `olist 1054
04:18:18 <HackEgo> olist 1054: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
04:19:21 <ais523> so why don't people just put a ping on `olist, rather than adding themself to the list?
04:19:57 <shachaf> Maybe some people do.
04:21:15 <shachaf> I think there might be some lists with no official subscribers?
04:21:36 <zzo38> It is what I suggested for `danddreclist too, and use that even if HackEgo won't respond for any reason
04:21:56 <zzo38> But yes, also with other stuff such as `olist I suggest you can do that kind of stuff.
04:30:17 <shachaf> \oren\: What do you think of that PDF?
04:37:55 <oerjan> <ais523> so why don't people just put a ping on `olist, rather than adding themself to the list? <-- i usually see the `olist in the logs, not in irssi.
04:38:18 <ais523> well in that case your name isn't pinging you either
04:38:23 <ais523> unless you grep for your name in the logs, I guess
04:38:39 <ais523> grep is sort-of an after-the-fact log-based version of pinging
04:38:42 <oerjan> i search for my name in IE hth
04:39:06 <oerjan> it's very reasonable as long as it's only one string
04:40:11 <quintopia> i was excited for a moment when the channel was vaguely about esolangs. can we do that again? :P
04:40:41 <ais523> what were we discussing?
04:40:52 <ais523> did you see my edit to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Black?
04:41:16 <ais523> (apparently the interp has vanished and wasn't in the web archive, so I rehosted it; it's not my interp but I happened to have a copy saved)
04:46:26 <quintopia> it's been a decade man
04:46:31 <quintopia> you should have proved it TC by now
04:47:58 <\oren\> shachaf: it's a very vehement exposition of some blindly obvious facts, combined with some bullshit
04:48:00 <ais523> I haven't been working on it all that time!
04:48:09 <ais523> also, the fact of my edit, and the circumstances surrounding it
04:48:21 <ais523> increase the chance that someone else will prove it TC and save me the bother :-P
04:49:04 <quintopia> considering that you already understand it well enough to write a meaningful program in it means you have a head start on all such people
04:49:38 <quintopia> ...but i'll think about it anyway
04:50:19 <shachaf> \oren\: I can't tell whether the first part is true.
04:53:58 <\oren\> well, i mean, it's obvious that with fiat currency and in particular with electronic money, the government can create as much money as it wants or needs at any time
04:54:13 <shachaf> Yes, that much is obvious.
04:54:26 <shachaf> (Except the federal reserve system is very complicated for some reason.)
04:54:43 <shachaf> But are all the consequences of that obvious?
04:56:32 <\oren\> no, because he made other assumptions
04:56:43 <shachaf> Yes.
04:57:21 <shachaf> For example, people talk about government deficits being bad, and say that a government's spending should be lower than its tax revenue.
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04:57:44 <shachaf> But if money is created only by the government, and you want the money supply to grow, is that really the case?
04:57:51 <\oren\> firstly, if a government prints too much money, its citizens will silently rebel by using foreign currencies and barter, not silently suffer
04:58:27 <shachaf> Of course there are negative consequences to printing unlimited amount of money.
04:58:47 <shachaf> (I don't think there was a claim to the contrary.)
04:59:13 <shachaf> Of course, money is introduced by many people other than the government.
05:00:15 <\oren\> no, but there are a bunch of places where I think he ignores the fact that currencies can start to compete within the economy
05:00:51 <\oren\> that is, not all transactions use the official currency of a country, especially when there is dysfunction
05:01:00 <shachaf> Of course.
05:01:37 <shachaf> One of the goals of anyone who makes any sort of currency is to have people trust it.
05:02:50 <\oren\> so not only will other countries not accept your currency, but a government can't actually force its citizens to use a currency
05:03:44 <shachaf> Well, they can require taxes to be paid in that currency.
05:03:50 <\oren\> so inflation rates have to be kept at a slow and veyr steady amount
05:04:56 <shachaf> I think people have been trying unsuccessfully to increase USD inflation.
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05:09:23 <zzo38> Why?
05:09:24 <quintopia> ais523: i made a Black gate that does a thing. maybe it will help.
05:09:49 <ais523> quintopia: the hard part is decrementing variables
05:09:55 <ais523> a variable needs to extend past the original area of the program
05:10:11 <ais523> which means that the turning apparatus you need to decrement it needs to be shoved further and further out over time
05:10:22 <ais523> the example program on the page is a proof that the decrement is possible
05:10:33 <ais523> so I felt reasonably confident at that point that it was TC
05:11:04 <quintopia> ais523: i'm just thinking about building logic gates and circuits and stuff.
05:11:28 <ais523> ah right, the control rather than the data
05:11:47 <ais523> I hadn't thought much about that
05:12:58 <izalove> stupid america and stupid month/day/year dates
05:13:44 <izalove> https://github.com/aappleby/smhasher last commit on jan 9 and the text says "update: 1/8/2016"
05:14:00 <izalove> total wtf for a couple of minutes
05:14:01 <\oren\> ugh
05:14:23 <\oren\> I prefer the japanese/chinese system where each number is labeled
05:14:45 <izalove> pretty much any other scheme is better
05:15:37 <\oren\> izalove: what about century/month/day/yearofcentury? 20/1/8/16
05:15:49 <izalove> you're the devil
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05:16:44 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: and then Japanese has an era. H28/8/16
05:17:02 <lifthrasiir> (probably will change soon)
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05:20:04 <\oren\> 3:40 hours till Assange will give his address
05:20:34 <izalove> it's 123 fake street
05:20:46 <lifthrasiir> nowhere, anywhere
05:21:13 <\oren\> I mean address as in a speech
05:21:24 <\oren\> for the 10th anniversary of wikileaks
05:28:45 <ais523> clearly dates should give the year number mod 3, 5, 7, 11, and 13
05:28:58 <ais523> that'll be unambiguous until the year 15016, at least if you know which field is which
05:30:17 <myname> we could easily do the same fir month and day
05:30:24 <myname> go fkr it
05:30:51 <myname> like a binary clock but with mod results instead of single led
05:31:45 <ais523> actually, remove 3 from the year
05:31:55 <ais523> use 5, 7, 11, 13 for the year, 3 and 4 for the month, 31 for the day
05:32:29 <myname> nah, the same for everything, otherwise it'd be way too easy
05:33:28 <myname> like, what fun is it to see 27th if you can have 2, 6, 5, 1
05:35:12 <myname> also, we could just use the discordian dates
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05:41:29 <ais523> myname: maybe the day uses 2 and 17?
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05:41:41 <ais523> or, hmm, perhaps duplicates are OK
05:41:47 <ais523> 2 and 4 is dubious enough as-is
05:42:22 <myname> using the same primes make a neat table
05:43:02 <myname> like, 5,7,11,13 as columns and year,month,day as rows
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05:45:33 <quintopia> til esoteric programming languages are "Langages de programmation exotiques" in French. exotic! now thats classy!
05:47:24 <ais523> ugh, I should really work out the details of the language I wanted to work out the details of
05:47:30 <ais523> is the calesyta esolang challenge still going?
05:47:42 <myname> maybe in france, esoteric isn't that esoteric
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05:48:36 <ais523> oh, November 15
05:48:37 <ais523> plenty of time
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05:55:33 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: There won't BE a world on november 15
05:55:55 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: is this related to the US elections?
05:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> Yes?
05:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, the president-elect isn't sworn in until January...
05:56:34 <ais523> oh
05:56:45 <ais523> so why do you think the world will end by november 15?
05:57:32 <izalove> trump should at least wait for the release of disney's moana
05:57:36 <izalove> before destroying the world
05:58:04 <izalove> blowing up the planet before that would be a dick move
05:58:34 <ais523> I'm at least mildly confident that if it came to a war between the US and the rest of the world, the rest of the world could deal with the problem without accidentally ending human civilisation in the process
05:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: After would be completely fair though; I mean, this is the planet that elected Trump
05:58:48 <ais523> he hasn't been elected yet
05:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: You haven't met the US
05:58:58 <ais523> and is currently projected to have around a 1 in 3 chance of winning
05:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> Well yeah
05:59:10 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I know enough about elections to know that they can be determined by completely random stuff
05:59:15 <ais523> so I'm worried
05:59:27 <ais523> but less worried than I could be
05:59:33 <ais523> do you have a vote in the US, and if so, in which state?
05:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, Hillary's not exactly preferable
05:59:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No; ineligible for the moment
05:59:56 <ais523> you can be preferable without actually being good
06:00:11 <hppavilion[1]> Well yeah
06:00:22 <ais523> I'd rather write an IRC client in INTERCAL than Malbolge, but neither is an appropriate choice
06:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think it boils down to being shot in the foot or shot in the head; neither is good, but one isn't going to kill you
06:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't think it'd be even possible to write it in malbolge; it doesn't do sockets iirc
06:01:14 <ais523> put it in a loop with netcat
06:01:16 <ais523> like thutubot does
06:01:23 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
06:01:53 <hppavilion[1]> REPLs are one thing, but RSERPLs are even better
06:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> (Read Send Eval Receive Print Loop- SSH, basically)
06:02:31 <izalove> eval before receive?
06:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: eval is done remotely
06:02:48 <ais523> that said, CLC-INTERCAL does have sockets
06:02:57 <izalove> and receive isn't?
06:03:04 <ais523> also the best IPv6 compatibility method I've ever seen
06:03:11 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: As in, data is sent to remote, evaluated there, and the response is sent back
06:03:20 <hppavilion[1]> And printed
06:03:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's not a very good name
06:03:36 <ais523> (you can look up an IPv6 IP as though it were a domain name, or an IPv6-only domain name, and you'll get a fake IPv4 address in response which then gets translated to and from the IPv6 address behind the scenes)
06:03:49 <izalove> shouldn't it be read send receive eval send receive print loop ?
06:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> I guess you could say RSRPL+RESL
06:04:01 <ais523> "receive eval send loop" is probably the best name for it
06:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: True
06:09:19 <zzo38> Does any program other than CLC-INTERCAL capable to do such a thing with IPv6 compatibility?
06:09:46 <ais523> zzo38: I don't know of one, although that doesn't mean that there isn't one I don't know about
06:10:37 <myname> i'd just say remote-repl
06:11:51 <izalove> but what does remote stand for
06:12:17 <myname> doesn't matter
06:12:42 <myname> "somewhere, maybe but not necessarily here"
06:13:10 <izalove> worst acronym ever
06:13:40 <myname> that's because it isn't one
06:13:48 <myname> also, INTERCAL is way worse
06:14:12 <ais523> is that even an acronym?
06:14:17 <hppavilion[1]> Sufficiently advanced friendship is indistinguishable from magic
06:14:20 <myname> it is
06:14:22 <ais523> it's pronounceable, which would tend to imply not
06:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> Also, any technology that is distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
06:14:37 <myname> it stands for Programming Language With No Pronouncable Acronym
06:14:53 <ais523> I believe the only official statement along the lines is "INTERCAL is short for Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym"
06:15:03 <ais523> which implies that it's an abbreviation, but no necessarily an acronym
06:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> myname: PLWNPA? That's pronounceable.
06:15:17 <hppavilion[1]> But you have to treat w like old english
06:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> Where it can make 'oo'
06:15:31 <ais523> also, it's only dubiously a real word (which tends to imply that it isn't an acronym), and it isn't an initialism
06:15:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: intercal's not that old, i guess
06:15:46 <ais523> myname: 1972
06:16:17 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Would you be surprised if it wanted us to use old English?
06:16:19 <myname> see, not "old english" old
06:16:26 <myname> i would
06:16:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: You clearly aren't in the INTERCALlian spirit then
06:16:55 <myname> intercal is more of a "look at what you can do" instead of a "look what we moved away from"
06:17:10 <myname> if it would be the later, it would still have goto
06:17:11 <ais523> INTERCAL is designed to do things differently from other languages, that is its only real guiding principle
06:17:26 <ais523> note that this allows doing things better in cases where most other languages mess them up
06:17:41 <ais523> however, normally all the best options are already taken, thus forcing INTERCAL to choose a worse one
06:20:44 <myname> if it doesn't have null pointers, it is still a better language than go
06:21:42 <ais523> you possibly don't want to know how INTERCAL's closest pointer equivalents work :-P
06:22:07 <ais523> although they have null pointers to the same extent that they have multivalued pointers
06:22:30 <ais523> and some pointer-like constructs have a pointer end up pointing to itself if you attempt to unset it
06:24:29 <zzo38> GOTO is still something that would help in some programming languages which don't have it; in some of these cases they eventually did add goto
06:24:35 <zzo38> But JavaScript still doesn't yet
06:25:03 <myname> i am not sure if goto would be any good in an event based language
06:26:24 <zzo38> What do you mean by "event based language" exactly?
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07:11:15 <izalove> idea
07:11:22 <izalove> for a hash function
07:11:29 <izalove> that can output any amount of bytes
07:11:37 <izalove> take a prng
07:11:57 <izalove> seed it with a fixed value
07:12:50 <izalove> then something like uint32_t hash = rng(); while (*data) hash ^= rng() * *data++;
07:13:11 <izalove> can be adapted to output a 64 bit hash by calling rng twice in the loop
07:13:24 <izalove> or 128 bit or 196 bit or 1024 bit
07:14:21 <izalove> is it stupid?
07:18:46 <izalove> any feedback would be appreciated.. <.<
07:18:46 <ais523> it's not too stupid but it's probably better to use a fixed sequence of values rather than random values
07:18:52 <ais523> otherwise you get silly behaviour when the RNG outputs 0, or a stream of the same value in a row, etc.
07:19:15 <ais523> many actual insecure hash functions use that sort of formula though
07:19:26 <izalove> it's not for crypto
07:19:51 <izalove> the rng is a way to generate a fixed sequence of decently distributed numbers
07:20:09 <ais523> indeed
07:20:27 <ais523> one well-known hash (ISBN check codes) uses the sequence 1, 2, 3, 4, … 10 for the purpose
07:20:39 <ais523> so I'm not sure that being decently distributed is required here :-D
07:20:47 <shachaf> ais523: I have a vote in California.
07:21:02 <izalove> ais523: can't hurt, no?
07:21:03 <shachaf> That's not very useful as far as influecing the national election.
07:21:12 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, that's one of the least valuable states to have a vote in, sadly
07:21:18 <ais523> at least it means you could safely screw around with it
07:21:29 <shachaf> That's true.
07:21:32 <shachaf> ais523 2016
07:21:33 <ais523> (also, influencing the popular vote might potentially help in the case of a close decision)
07:22:25 <ais523> there's at least one stupid scenario, with a fraction-of-a-percent chance, in which the house of representatives gets to pick between clinton, trump, and johnson
07:22:41 <ais523> and if clinton doesn't win the popular vote they'll almost certainly go for trump in that situation
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07:24:08 <izalove> 7000/1 is a fraction
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08:02:01 <izalove> with that hash function it's easy to generate a bloom filter
08:02:14 <izalove> just initialize with n different seeds
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08:29:00 <izalove> https://www.scribd.com/doc/18093757/Fuckin-Concrete-Contemporary-Abstract-Algebra-Introduction-by-Nicolas-Bourbaki-Junior
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11:41:19 <boily> `wisdom
11:41:25 <HackEgo> treant//Treants are genericized ents for intellectual property reasons.
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13:45:04 <moonythedwarf> moooo
13:50:34 <APic> Gesundheit
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15:20:31 <oerjan> @tell fizzie You know, maybe zemhill_____ should sometimes _subtract_ an underscore hth
15:20:31 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:33:52 <FreeFull> Subtraction is unsound
15:33:57 <FreeFull> Addition forever
15:35:07 <FreeFull> negative numbers don't even real
15:36:13 <MDude> No zero either.
15:38:37 <oerjan> and these newfangled numbers larger than two are suspect as well.
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16:22:04 <FireFly> FreeFull: gotta stay positive, I like it
16:52:54 <Taneb> `quote different result
16:52:55 <HackEgo> 397) <fizzie> There's that saying that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. [...] <Taneb> You've just gave me a different result [...] <fizzie> It's always insane to expect different results, even when it's likely to occur.
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17:15:00 <moonythedwarf> mooo
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17:16:54 <moonythedwarf> wb `^_^v
17:16:56 * oerjan feels obligated to link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI
17:17:12 <moonythedwarf> lol
17:17:21 <oerjan> special for you
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17:50:25 <int-e> It's been a while... I wonder whether the original swf is still around.
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18:38:03 <`^_^v> thank you moonythedwarf. your kindness these past few days has warmed my heart
18:39:41 <quintopia> haven't heard that song in a while
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18:41:30 <quintopia> it bothers me that the song says "he" but the animation shows a "she"
18:46:06 <zzo38> `? mahjong
18:46:07 <HackEgo> mahjong? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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19:34:15 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to be studying the "signs" of a set, which is a mathematical idea of mine (it could already exist, but I haven't heard of it) that ISN'T half-baked
19:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> It's essentially a way of generalizing positive and negative numbers
19:34:49 <hppavilion[1]> I'll explain if anyone is interested, once I write down an ACIIable version
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19:39:40 <quintopia> hey, it can't be less half-baked than the "signs" of M. Night Shyamalan
19:39:54 <quintopia> or is it 'more half-baked'?
19:40:03 <quintopia> 'less-than-half-baked'?
19:40:20 <quintopia> probably just 'less-baked'
19:42:57 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I'll have to check that
19:43:31 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Ah
19:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> I thought it was math xD
19:43:50 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Shall I explain them?
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19:48:09 <hppavilion[2]> Back
19:48:25 <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas?
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20:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> `wisdom
20:50:29 <HackEgo> banach-tarski//"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
20:58:42 <\oren\> `?
20:58:43 <HackEgo> ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:58:49 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:58:50 <HackEgo> ​αλτγρ+γ//αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
20:59:05 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:07 <HackEgo> ruby//Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
20:59:17 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:18 <HackEgo> wth//WTH is wavy toe hair. hth.
20:59:22 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:23 <HackEgo> ​@//@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
20:59:29 <hppavilion[1]> `? hth
20:59:29 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
20:59:33 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:35 <HackEgo> overworld//The overworld is an alternative name for the world map, used by players of the Zelda video games.
20:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> hth can also be 'hope that harmed' in some cases
20:59:44 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> `? hðh
20:59:45 <HackEgo> structural subtyping//Not to be confused with substructural typing.
20:59:46 <HackEgo> hðh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
20:59:52 <\oren\> `wisdom
20:59:53 <HackEgo> ipu//IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
20:59:59 <\oren\> `wisdom
21:00:00 <HackEgo> semmelweis//Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
21:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> `learn hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:01:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'hðh': hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:01:48 <hppavilion[1]> `? hðh
21:01:49 <HackEgo> hðh is how hppavilion[n] decides to sæ 'hth' when e's beiŋ annoyiŋ. At least, in a subset of ðose times.
21:02:02 <hppavilion[1]> `? hppavilion[n]
21:02:02 <HackEgo> hppavilion[n]? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
21:02:06 <hppavilion[1]> `? hppavilion
21:02:07 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk
21:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> `learn hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. Not to be confused with hppavilion_n
21:02:49 <HackEgo> Relearned 'hppavilion': hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. Not to be confused with hppavilion_n
21:04:24 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/hðh
21:04:25 <HackEgo> No output.
21:05:30 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: :(
21:05:39 <shachaf> Pointing out that you're being annoying does not free you from any consequences of being annoying.
21:05:56 <myname> ++
21:05:56 <shachaf> If anything it does the opposite.
21:06:21 <hppavilion[1]> ...fair enough
21:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I felt it'd be useful though.
21:06:41 <hppavilion[1]> For people who get confused if I accidentally slip back into ERA
21:07:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I use ERA outside of #esoteric; I only avoid it here out of consideration for the request of those with bad Unicode handling in their clients)
21:07:08 <shachaf> No, you felt it'd be funny.
21:07:48 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...that too.
21:08:01 <hppavilion[1]> Everything I do is for humor
21:09:33 <\oren\> I wasn't expecting Semmelweis to be a real person
21:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Whom?
21:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, was it a user that recently joined and turned out to not be a bot?
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21:18:18 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: no
21:18:27 <\oren\> `wisdom semmelweis
21:18:28 <HackEgo> semmelweis//Semmelweis saves the life of a hundred thousand birthgiving mothers by popularising This One Simple Trick. Doctors hate him for it.
21:18:38 <\oren\> that's actually true
21:19:05 <\oren\> the trick was disinfecting their hands before delivering babies
21:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
21:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> ...Oh, huh
21:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But why would doctors hate him? It's more chargeable if the mother lives because (a) nasty ethics like "don't make people pay you, at least as much, when you seriously failed" don't get in the way as often and (b) dead men need no doctors (except, y'know, coroners), so they won't be returning customers
21:23:15 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: they hated him for suggesting that a gentleman's hands could possibly carry disease
21:23:26 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, yes
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21:24:28 <int-e> . o O ( They could carry the disease... of love! )
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21:56:30 <tswett> So people apparently sometimes say that Grover's algorithm can be used for "searching a database".
21:57:59 <tswett> Suppose I have a "quantum hard drive" that I can store qubits in, but when I'm pulling qubits out, I have to specify the index classically; I can't ask for a superposition of indices.
21:58:51 <tswett> Is there a way I can store a database on this quantum hard drive such that I can use Grover's algorithm to quickly search it?
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22:29:37 <int-e> tswett: I'm not an expert on this, but as I understand it, no; Wikipedia agrees: "Roughly speaking, if we have a function y = f(x) that can be evaluated on a quantum computer, Grover's algorithm allows us to calculate x when given y."
22:50:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VoidLang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49857&oldid=49855 * Iovoid * (+538) Add examples.
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23:01:45 <quintopia> hello
23:23:56 -!- boily has joined.
23:24:59 <boily> `wisdom
23:25:00 <HackEgo> ​#programming//No such channel. See `? #esoteric
23:26:15 <\oren\> `wisdon
23:26:15 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdon: not found
23:26:17 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:19 <HackEgo> oregon//Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left.
23:26:26 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:27 <HackEgo> codoctor//P⚭Q ∧ P ∈ 𝔻𝕣 → Q ∈ 𝔻𝕣*
23:26:47 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:49 <HackEgo> northumberland//Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
23:26:56 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:26:57 <HackEgo> heh//heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
23:27:04 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:05 <HackEgo> the universe//The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet.
23:27:12 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:13 <HackEgo> try//There is no try.
23:27:18 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:20 <HackEgo> finland//Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
23:27:26 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:27:27 <HackEgo> dynamic-wind//dynamic-wind is the opposite of static-wind.
23:31:08 <boily> he\\oren\. please be advised that nothing can oppose oerjan hth
23:31:19 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:31:21 <HackEgo> joke//Jokes are no drug.
23:31:25 <\oren\> `wisdom
23:31:27 <HackEgo> fire//Fire, fire, everywhere, nor any drop to drink.
23:33:04 <boily> `wisdom
23:33:05 <HackEgo> scotland//<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes
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23:35:27 <quintopia> coily
23:35:35 <quintopia> elloerjan
23:36:00 <oerjan> intopia
23:37:07 <boily> quinthellopia, hellørjan.
23:37:30 * boily opposes oerjan. FOR SCIENCE!
23:37:35 <oerjan> hoily. i have found the universe quite efficient at opposing me, actually.
23:37:44 * quintopia opposes boily
23:38:07 * oerjan refuses to oppose either, on principle
23:38:41 <quintopia> are you opposing opposition?
23:39:09 <oerjan> NEVER
23:39:20 <boily> OKAY
23:39:30 <quintopia> im not totally opposing boily, i just think he hasnt given vocaloid a completely fair shot.
23:39:38 * oerjan gets hit by the falling anvil. it's been a while...
23:41:04 <shachaf> oppose is when you reverse all the 2-cells in a pose?
23:41:39 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas? <-- . o O ( baguette derivatives )
23:41:58 <quintopia> no its when you give a pose the permission to kick people from the channel
23:42:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:42:20 <quintopia> speak of the devil
23:42:25 <oerjan> speak o... oops
23:42:50 <oerjan> <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: Wouldn't a half-baked idea be the baguette of ideas? <-- . o O ( baguette derivatives )
23:43:11 <quintopia> tell us aboit set signs then hppavilion[1]
23:44:10 <oerjan> quintopia: itym posse hth
23:44:47 <quintopia> no that would be opposse
23:45:04 <oerjan> opossible
23:47:10 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: OK
23:47:11 * boily is confuzzled.
23:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> Signs are basically a way of generalizing positive and negative (and zero) numbers that I'm playing with
23:48:03 <shachaf> a heffalomp or wuzzle / is very confuzzle
23:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> You have a set S and a magnitude function (which is basically a more general absolute value) #x : S -> T that may or may not need to satisfy some properties that I haven't found to be needed yet
23:49:09 <boily> they come in ones and twoosels.
23:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Assume for now T is a subset of S. Other cases are possible, of course, but I'm ignoring those for now)
23:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> (#x must be defined for ALL elements of S)
23:51:38 <shachaf> a heffalomp or wuzzle's very sly
23:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> So for many definitions of #x, there will be several values x, y where x /= y, #x = #y (by the pigeonhole principle, definitely any where T has lesser cardinality (which is, by the way, a possible definition of #) than X)
23:51:58 <oerjan> `? hppavilion
23:51:59 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk. A common alternative definition is the set of all items yielded by the general case of the generator. Not to be confused with hppavilion^k or hppavilion_m.
23:52:06 <oerjan> oh.
23:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> And sign basically is what makes those values different.
23:52:50 <quintopia> well...all of that seems rather obvious, but how is it useful?
23:53:09 <hppavilion[1]> Like, y'know, when your set is Z and magnitude is just normal absolute value, -1 /= 1 but |-1| = |1| = 1
23:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Yeah, that's what I'm looking for
23:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> This feels like one of those things that HAS to be useful (not random babbling), but I don't know of an exact application
23:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> (I think I might have had one in mind earlier, but I've forgotten it if so)
23:54:13 <shachaf> `? heffalump
23:54:14 <HackEgo> heffalump? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:54:29 <shachaf> what!
23:54:31 <shachaf> unacceptable
23:54:34 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: But the point is that sign can be something more than just + - 0; you can have arbitrarily many of them
23:54:58 <shachaf> You can even have a cosign for every sign.
23:55:05 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...yes, you could
23:55:17 <hppavilion[1]> Probably, let's be honest, that's going to come up eventually
23:55:47 <hppavilion[1]> (If you're doing complex numbers, you have uncountably many if you use normal absolute value for magnitude; the signs represent points on the unit circle)
23:56:51 <oerjan> `learn A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
23:56:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'heffalump': A heffalump is similar to a lump of sugar, but with honey instead.
23:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Oh, and even if you just use Q, you can find alternative similar interpretations to positive and negative that are very different.
23:57:21 <shachaf> oerjan: that wisdom entry is very confusil
23:57:35 <oerjan> shocking
23:57:54 <shachaf> `? woozle
23:57:55 <HackEgo> woozle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
23:58:00 <quintopia> a hefelump is a lump of sugar fermented with yeast
23:58:26 <oerjan> quintopia: is that a pun or just a mispling
23:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> Using mfloor(x) instead of abs(x), sign becomes any number n/m : m in N*, n in N, -1 ≤ n ≤ 1
23:59:23 <quintopia> oerjan: hefe as in hefeweizen
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