←2016-10-23 2016-10-24 2016-10-25→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:06:10 <lynn> fizzie: I'm speechless
00:06:32 <DHeadshot> hi speechless!
00:07:07 <lynn> I like it. Have you worn this in public?! I hope so
00:08:08 <myname> fizzie: gorgeous
00:08:22 <izalove> something summoned a demon with my terminal while i was afk http://i.imgur.com/9YxarEH.png
00:08:23 <fizzie> For the last few weeks it's actually been waiting for me to take that photo; now it's going to the wash, and *then* I'll be wearing it in public.
00:09:10 <myname> itmakes me want to make something big in an esolang to print it on a shirt
00:10:31 <fizzie> I thought about the flowchart version of fungot, but it wouldn't've been readable, unlike this snippet.
00:10:31 <fungot> fizzie: and unless you sleep the disk during most of holidays and weekends, zurich during weekdays. :) there were some differences with structs at least
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00:15:09 <shachaf> hi lynn
00:15:50 <shachaf> fizzie can tell when people are speechless
00:16:16 <shachaf> it's part of speech recognition
00:17:07 <myname> what's the flowchart cersion?
00:19:06 <fizzie> myname: https://users.ics.aalto.fi/htkallas/fungotsmall.png (or remove "small" for a 5x larger version where you can actually read the labels)
00:19:06 <fungot> fizzie: i love the internets.
00:19:12 <fizzie> fungot: I know, right.
00:19:13 <fungot> fizzie: configure.ac is *not* up-to-date in cvs. what you say
00:19:40 <myname> so... what should i write with which language to put it on a shirt?
00:20:02 <fizzie> (I'm pleasantly surprised that thing still exists; my user account died long ago, and I couldn't find a local copy anywhere.)
00:20:09 <ais523> fizzie: I take it the shirt isn't all of fungot, just a representative sample?
00:20:09 <fungot> ais523: are you asking stupid things about option one is if you had 0, your input wouldn't work, it'd have waited until now :) thanks
00:20:26 <fizzie> ais523: It's only the babble generation part, right.
00:20:43 <ais523> minus the actual babble dictionaries
00:21:01 <ais523> although I see an "ELIF" which is probably a fingerprint load
00:21:01 <fizzie> Yes, those are separate files.
00:21:12 <ais523> so I guess it's loading them from files
00:21:38 <fizzie> If you can call it "loading". It's actually mostly just seeking around the files, reading a few bytes here and there.
00:21:50 <fizzie> I didn't want to get the memory bloat of loading them all to fungespace.
00:22:57 <fizzie> (The "irc" style is 195659600 bytes of n-gram trees and 1042812 bytes of a token-index-to-string map.)
00:23:32 <fizzie> The lower part is a binary search, I think.
00:23:41 <fizzie> I don't exactly remember what it is a binary search *of*.
00:24:30 <fizzie> (But the "cur>" and "cur<" and "match" comments do suggest it's looking for something.)
00:26:48 <myname> http://esolangs.org/w/images/2/25/Ziim_%E2%80%94_Add.png rotated 90 degrees would be an interesting motive
00:27:23 <ais523> clearly we need an mmap fingerprint
00:29:54 <hppavilion[1]> What should my botprefix be?
00:29:56 <hppavilion[1]> ^prefixes
00:29:56 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
00:30:25 -!- boily has joined.
00:30:29 <hppavilion[1]> It appears metasepia isn't on atm. Is e pretty much gone?
00:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> ahoily. I'm making a bot!
00:31:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Lambdabot hogs prefixes so much... it's kind of annoying
00:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> )
00:32:00 <hppavilion[1]> ~test
00:32:07 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I'll go with ~ then
00:32:18 <ais523> metasepia isn't here right now
00:32:50 <fizzie> Last seen 2014-09-10 in my logs.
00:32:56 <fizzie> That's a while ago already.
00:33:11 <boily> hppavellon[1]! I ought to revive it >_>'...
00:33:17 <hppavilion[1]> boily: NO
00:33:25 <boily> his523. I know the hiatus is long. sorry.
00:33:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: If you do, I have dibs on the ~ prefix.
00:33:32 <boily> fizziello. that's about right v_v
00:33:49 <fizzie> @metar EGLL
00:33:50 <lambdabot> EGLL 232320Z AUTO 04004KT 9999 NCD 10/06 Q1011 NOSIG
00:33:52 * boily *THWACKS* hppavilion[1] away from the prefix
00:34:14 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Soon, you will be able to thwack people via my bot and have it be meaningful.
00:34:49 <boily> as long as you use something else than ~. afaik, nobody has & yet.
00:35:03 <boily> or you can use ˝ if you want.
00:35:34 <boily> (although I believe it'd be fittinger if b_jonas used it. the wob_jonas bot, the wobbot.)
00:35:48 <myname> wasn't there a language named tube or something similar?
00:36:00 <boily> @metar CYUL
00:36:01 <lambdabot> CYUL 232300Z 26015G26KT 15SM FEW250 09/M03 A2963 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP037
00:37:03 <myname> ah, tubes
00:37:10 <myname> the search function is stupid
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00:40:19 <\oren\> we've always been at war with Eastasia
00:40:33 <boily> he\\oren\. no we haven't.
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00:40:41 <advbot> H3110!
00:40:49 <hppavilion[1]> ~test
00:40:50 -!- advbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> Damn
00:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, simple ordering error
00:41:26 <myname> too bad, tubes is underspecified
00:41:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh?
00:41:51 <myname> wait, it's not
00:41:53 <\oren\> shut up oldthinker. you must bellyfeel ingsoc
00:41:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: My bot is supposed to have realname OceanaJones
00:42:04 * boily looks at hppavilion[1]. very intently looks. feel yourself being looked at.
00:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> I called a method of the argument on the object, rather than the reverse
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00:43:51 <advbot> AdventureBot Joined!
00:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> ~test
00:43:58 <advbot> hppavilion[1]!~Doslowdow@93-231-58-66.gci.net: Message acknowledged
00:44:01 <hppavilion[1]> Yay!
00:44:24 <boily> \oren\: I'm not wearing any ingsocks, and my bellyfeel is full of phở. Eurasia is our ally.
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00:45:22 * boily is still glaring at hppavilion[1]. "'tis my prefix, you vile heathen! I shall virtually shake my fist at you! In your approximate direction!"
00:45:37 <\oren\> have the walloons accepted our trade agreement yet?
00:46:12 <boily> I don't think so...
00:46:54 <boily> «Le Canada et l'Union européenne ont donné à la Belgique jusqu'à lundi soir pour dire si elle soutient ou non l'accord de libre-échange, sinon la cérémonie de signature sera annulée, selon une source de l'agence Reuters.» ← It won't happen until tomorrow night.
00:56:11 <boily> `wisdom
00:56:20 <HackEgo> unréliable//unréliable is French for «peu fiable».
00:56:34 <myname> sooo... what can you program with like 3 different characters to output
00:56:53 <myname> i thought about game of life, but i don't know if this isn't lver the top
00:59:19 <hppavilion[1]> boily: If you can propose an unterrible prefix, I will accept it. Note that & is bad because it's overused.
01:00:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Multi-symbol prefixes are acceptable- will metasepia trigger on '~~'?
01:01:09 <boily> hppavilion[1]: ¤, ±, ¶, §, ¢ are all interesting.
01:01:16 <boily> maybe. it's been a long time...
01:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Perhaps, but I want something that can be done on a normal keyboard.
01:02:53 <boily> I didn't suggest ⅞ nor Ω.
01:03:15 <ais523>
01:03:22 <ais523> perfectly standard keyboard here
01:03:28 <ais523> I don't know how to type that capital omega though
01:03:39 <hppavilion[1]> Sure, I can type ¢, ¤, €, §, ±, ∓, ≥, ≤, ¿, ⸮, ‽, ⸘, ⟦, ⟧, ∨, |, ¦, ⦃, ⦄, ≈, ×, ⁂, ¡, ‰, ‱, ∧, 〔, 〕, 〈, and 〉on command from my keyboard
01:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> But most people can't
01:03:52 <shachaf> fizzie: So I heard there's a new Linux privilege escalation bug. What do you think of using it in HackEgo?
01:03:54 <hppavilion[1]> (≥ would be a fun prefix though...)
01:03:56 <hppavilion[1]> ≥test
01:04:07 <boily> ais523: Canadien Multilingue Standard. it's very standard and sane!
01:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> ...OK, I'm going with ≥ for fun
01:04:16 <hppavilion[1]> Unless there's some weird unicode thing
01:04:29 <boily> ais523: ISO Level 5 + Shift + Q for the “Ω” hth
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01:04:36 <advbot> AdventureBot Joined!
01:04:49 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to remove the joinalert...
01:04:52 <hppavilion[1]> ≥Hi
01:04:52 <advbot> hppavilion[1]: Message acknowledged
01:05:05 <hppavilion[1]> :)
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01:05:38 <myname> § is a great idea
01:06:38 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm hoping it wouldn't account to much, because I don't think the root user is supposed to be able to do much in umlbox that a normal user can't.
01:06:55 <shachaf> I thought root access in UML was approximately the same as user access to the host?
01:07:28 <fizzie> Mmmaybe. I don't think it's supposed to be, but it's possible it's porous enough to be that.
01:07:51 <shachaf> Can't a root user install arbitrary kernel modules etc. in UML?
01:08:36 <\oren\> I have ❄ as the prefix for my bot
01:08:38 <fizzie> It's got CONFIG_MODULES=n.
01:08:48 <fizzie> Nobody can install arbitrary modules on *that*.
01:09:12 <ais523> well, the escalation bug allowed you to write to arbitrary cache pages
01:09:26 <ais523> the usual exploit is to get a copy of /usr/bin/su cached in memory, then overwrite it to do something else and execute it
01:09:37 <ais523> but maybe there's some exploit that escalates a different way
01:09:39 <boily> \oren\: did it snow in Ontario today?
01:09:57 <\oren\> yes, at least up where my grandparents live
01:10:06 <\oren\> not here in toronto tho
01:10:56 <\oren\> trying to fill up more gaps in my font now
01:11:18 <shachaf> fizzie: OK, so can we enable root access to HackEgo? twh
01:11:39 <\oren\> `? twh
01:11:41 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
01:11:56 <\oren\> `? hand
01:11:58 <boily> \oren\: are you planning on supporting brahmic scripts?
01:11:59 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
01:12:36 <\oren\> boily: maybe someday. I have Devanagari and Thai working already though
01:13:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIvDVhN5Lv4
01:14:09 <fizzie> shachaf: I guess the bug already did that? hth
01:16:43 <\oren\> ttp://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2742/index.htm <-- WTFFFFFF
01:17:10 <\oren\> in what universe is that a CIRCLED OPEN CENTRE EIGHT POINTED STAR
01:17:39 <\oren\> it's a cluster of 13 circles of various size!
01:19:05 <fizzie> That's not what it looks like in the actual Unicode code chart.
01:19:36 <FreeFull> Looks like they have the wrong default image
01:19:42 <FreeFull> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2742/browsertest.htm
01:19:51 <FreeFull> Some weird font maybe
01:19:56 <\oren\> yeah, luckily i cross reference this stuff
01:20:19 <FreeFull> Arial Unicode MS is the font with the weird symbol
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01:27:08 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBDq2xeed40
01:27:32 <oerjan> @messages-
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 13m 19s ago: The revert-file-additions thing was more subtle than I thought.
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 12m 53s ago: Turns out "hg revert" *does* remove (tracked) files that did not exist in the revision to revert to. The problem is that it *removes* them instead of *deleting* them.
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 12m 39s ago: Mercurial has both "deleted" (doesn't exist but is still tracked) and "removed" (doesn't exist and is no longer tracked) states for a file.
01:27:33 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 12m 15s ago: As far as I can tell, the transact code wasn't expecting anything to be "removed" (because commands in the sandbox can't), so it only checked for deleted file in the
01:27:33 <lambdabot> status and never made a commit if the only change was files having been "removed" (like after a `revert of adding a file).
01:27:35 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 11m 50s ago: So after a `revert of a file addition, the repository was left in an inconsistent state, and the next command that caused a commit inadvertently restored the removed
01:27:37 <lambdabot> file when it cleaned up the state for the second run.
01:27:39 <lambdabot> fizzie said 10h 10m 53s ago: I think it doesn't hurt to just include removed files in the "commit or not?" check as well, so I'll propose that.
01:27:41 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 8m 3s ago: that's a lot of @tell oerjans!
01:27:43 <lambdabot> fizzie said 8h 51m 51s ago: btw fyi https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-requests/5 hth hand
01:27:54 <izalove> if only one could check these messages in query
01:28:37 <myname> i hate it when lambdabot annoys me in query for messages i already read somehow else
01:28:51 <oerjan> maybe this was a bad idea.
01:29:04 <oerjan> @tell boily yep!
01:29:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:29:22 * izalove grabs popcorn
01:29:44 <shachaf> @tell izalove please send pooch pics twh
01:29:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
01:30:48 <izalove> https://rs391.pbsrc.com/albums/oo357/autobono/angrydog.jpg~c200
01:35:32 <oerjan> fizzie: that was indeed subtle.
01:37:25 <boily> @massages
01:38:06 <boily> helpoochaf.
01:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> What part of the IRC protocol to I use to check that a user is logged in?
01:39:43 <hppavilion[1]> (in the nickserv sense)
01:39:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: to check that you're logged in or that someone else is?
01:40:03 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: WHOIS gives that info
01:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Someone else
01:40:05 <hppavilion[1]> OK
01:40:17 <ais523> also note that nickserv is an extension to IRC, not an actual part of IRC, so it doesn't work the same way on every server
01:40:25 <ais523> on most servers, though, it's either whois or mode
01:40:29 <oerjan> may not be the least verbose method, since it gives much other info too
01:41:01 <ais523> some servers change the username, in which case /who would work
01:41:29 <oerjan> hm is the change of /whois to /whowas for a recently logged out user something the server does, or the client?
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01:41:38 <alercah> client
01:41:44 <oerjan> good
01:41:55 <alercah> at the protocol level, you repeat the name to do a whowas
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01:42:01 <oerjan> WHO BROKE HACKEGO
01:42:07 <alercah> eg WHOIS HackEgo HackEgo
01:42:08 * oerjan hopes it was Gregor
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01:42:26 <shachaf> `welcome atehwa_
01:42:28 <HackEgo> atehwa_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:42:44 <oerjan> alercah: oh? that does something else too ... gives idle time
01:42:48 <oerjan> (if logged in)
01:43:05 <ais523> what happens if you give a second argument that doesn't match the first?
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01:43:40 <oerjan> oh it's back already
01:43:47 <oerjan> ais523: then it's a server name
01:44:09 <oerjan> (assuming the raw protocol is the same as irssi's /whois there)
01:44:35 * oerjan has /wii aliased to that repetition. it may have been preset.
01:45:00 <shachaf> it may have been contributed by nintendo
01:45:43 <boily> `? nintendo
01:45:44 <HackEgo> nintendo? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
01:46:34 <shachaf> ais523: That reminds me of a conversation yesterday about second derivatives : (U ⊗ U -> V). Apparently people always pass in the same argument twice?
01:47:43 <ais523> there are fewer practical uses for differentiating by two different variables
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01:48:12 <shachaf> I still don't know what it means for it to be a bilinear map. What happens if you vary just one argument?
01:49:33 <FreeFull> shachaf: If you vary just one argument, it behaves linearly
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01:54:44 <oerjan> shachaf: and that's the actual definition of bilinear hth
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01:55:16 <shachaf> oerjan: ?
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01:55:58 <oerjan> what FreeFull said. sheesh.
01:56:29 <shachaf> Oh.
01:58:20 <shachaf> I know that. But what does it actually do?
01:59:22 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, when did it join?
01:59:24 <hppavilion[1]> Weird...
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02:01:17 <hppavilion[1]> ±admin
02:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> Hm.
02:02:50 <hppavilion[1]> Weird
02:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> ≥hi
02:03:03 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't receiving messages...
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02:04:56 <hppavilion[1]> ≥test
02:04:56 <advbot> hppavilion[1]: Message acknowledged
02:04:59 <hppavilion[1]> ±admin
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02:06:24 <FreeFull> Apparently matrix multiplication is an example of a bilinear map
02:07:35 <oerjan> it better be.
02:07:55 <\oren\> `unicode HOURGLASS
02:07:57 <HackEgo> ​⌛
02:08:03 <\oren\> `unicode HOURGLASS*
02:08:06 <oerjan> `unicode SCYTHE
02:08:09 <HackEgo> U+231B HOURGLASS \ UTF-8: e2 8c 9b UTF-16BE: 231b Decimal: &#8987; \ ⌛ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+23F3 HOURGLASS WITH FLOWING SAND \ UTF-8: e2 8f b3 UTF-16BE: 23f3 Decimal: &#9203; \ ⏳ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+29D6 WHITE HOURGLASS \ UTF-8: e2 a7 96 UTF-16BE: 29
02:08:12 <HackEgo> No output.
02:08:28 <FreeFull> `unicode oren
02:08:28 <shachaf> `unicode DEATH
02:08:35 -!- advbot has joined.
02:08:37 <HackEgo> No output.
02:08:37 <HackEgo> U+2E9E CJK RADICAL DEATH \ UTF-8: e2 ba 9e UTF-16BE: 2e9e Decimal: &#11934; \ ⺞ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2F4D KANGXI RADICAL DEATH \ UTF-8: e2 bd 8d UTF-16BE: 2f4d Decimal: &#12109; \ ⽍ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Decomposition: <compat> 6B79
02:08:42 <FreeFull> Radical death
02:08:45 <hppavilion[1]> ±admin
02:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, weird...
02:09:06 <shachaf> what happened to #esoteric-blah
02:10:27 <oerjan> FreeFull: very common in china back in the 60s hth
02:10:57 <hppavilion[1]> Weird...
02:10:57 <\oren\> OOOH
02:11:11 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It was working more and I came to demonstrate it; changing the channel back now
02:11:19 <oerjan> \oren\ has an epiphany. we're doomed.
02:11:45 <\oren\> oerjan: nah I just realized my font doesn't cover
02:12:00 <\oren\> ANY of the kangzi radical characters
02:12:11 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, the process was terminated without disconnecting...
02:12:13 <hppavilion[1]> Whoops...
02:12:19 <oerjan> sho xing
02:12:37 <shachaf> oerjan: unionized radical death, no doubt
02:12:47 <\oren\> oerjan: in pinyin x is sort of a sh sound hth
02:13:11 <shachaf> `quote
02:13:13 <shachaf> `quote
02:13:13 <shachaf> `quote
02:13:14 <shachaf> `quote
02:13:16 <HackEgo> 795) <olsner> it's not completely obvious since the displayed nick lengths are rounded to the closest integer
02:13:17 <shachaf> `quote
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02:13:29 <HackEgo> 144) <fungot> ais523: my nose feels like a bad heuristic
02:13:29 <HackEgo> 432) <Taneb> Well, I'm now experimenting with clients <fizzie> It doesn't sound like good PR to say that out loud.
02:13:29 <HackEgo> 931) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski"
02:13:59 <shachaf> they're all fine tdnh
02:14:32 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, the process just didn't terminate
02:14:48 <oerjan> \oren\: yes. but not the same sound as sh.
02:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Pretty sure 'x' in pinyin is 'zh' in english
02:15:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Which isn't helpful because we almost never use 'zh'- but it's voiced 'sh')
02:15:11 <\oren\> so is it confirmed that exo mars has bcome more endo-mars?
02:16:34 <hppavilion[1]> The latin transcription of Chinese has always bugged me
02:16:34 <\oren\> `quote
02:16:35 <HackEgo> 1058) <kmc> Bike: i think it's a fermented fish product? <kmc> either that or it means "welcome" in finnish
02:16:41 <zzo38> At what time of day are Muslim call of prayer supposed to be?
02:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> Chinese uses entirely symbolic writing, with no influence from Rome
02:17:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i believe x in pinyin is not voiced and neither is sh hth
02:17:53 <hppavilion[1]> So why aren't the symbols used in transcription the symbols that MAKE those noises?
02:18:15 <hppavilion[1]> Who decided "OK, so when they make the [tʃ] sound, we'll write a 'Q'"
02:18:25 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salah_times
02:19:14 <\oren\> dawn, midday, afternoon, sunset, midnight
02:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But it has to be on UTC hth
02:21:18 <hppavilion[1]> So in UTC+3, for example, you do everything 3 hours early.
02:21:34 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: they were just like "well, we don't need this crappy rounded k sound, so thets use it for a more different ch."
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02:23:11 <\oren\> and "we never have a stupid ks consonant cluster, so we can just use x for something else"
02:24:30 <hppavilion[1]> Though, Sunnis use UTC1 whereas the more orthodox Shias use UTC0, so prayer times vary due to leap seconds.
02:24:55 <FreeFull> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/phonemes
02:25:01 <FreeFull> Latest smbc comic, surprisingly relevant
02:25:38 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: That's awesome
02:26:46 <fizzie> "WHOIS foo foo" is not the same thing as WHOWAS at all. The WHOIS syntax is "WHOIS [<target>] <nick>[,...]" and "WHOIS foo foo" is just a WHOIS command that's sent to a specific server. There is an entirely separate WHOWAS message. (RFC 2812, sections 3.6.2 and 3.6.3.)
02:26:55 * hppavilion[1] wishes that the prayer UTC divide was a real thing
02:27:18 <iovoid> Is there a way to make more Wiki Captchas to test?
02:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> The Golden Age of Islam, which is when they discovered a shitton of math and such, was (this is true, not a joke) driven by them trying to figure out what goddamn direction it is to Mecca
02:28:19 <fizzie> (The optional <target> part is also a server; clients just turn "/whois foo foo" into "WHOIS <server of foo> foo", because sending the WHOIS to the server foo is directly connected to returns more information.)
02:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> One can only imagine a man in a turban in the desert with a camel getting a stick and scrawling non-euclidean geometry, vector calculus, and a proof that P ⊃ NP
02:29:21 <zzo38> Yes, and in my opinion that is a silly way to continue such tradition. If the tradition doesn't work you can ignore it
02:30:07 <zzo38> It is good to figure out various math, but that reason doesn't make much sense
02:30:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: chinese has two parallel series of sh-like sounds. one of the series is written as sh, zh, ch. the other has to use some other representation, and they happened to choose x, j, q. not sure if i remembered the order right.
02:30:32 <zzo38> Especially in space, where apparently people have come up with two different systems to do
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02:31:05 <oerjan> (also i just discovered i've somehow got their pronunciation difference about backwards.)
02:31:18 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ch is a consonant cluster hth
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02:32:14 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: And it ended when they figured it out?
02:32:24 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Presumably
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02:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm waiting for someone to comment on the last part of his frustrated scrawling
02:32:54 <FreeFull> "Ok guys, the algebra says Mecca is this way"
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02:33:08 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: "Um, I think that's a bialgebra"
02:33:20 <zzo38> The word "algebra" does come from Arabic
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02:33:31 <hppavilion[1]> * Somebody tries to find Gebra to ask him
02:33:44 <FreeFull> The word "alcohol" does too, and Muslims aren't meant to drink it..
02:33:45 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I think it's a name
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02:33:56 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: I don't think alcohol is arabic...
02:34:10 <hppavilion[1]> (the word, not the class of chemicals)
02:34:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure it's greek, though they may be related I suppose...
02:35:53 <zzo38> I don't know what would "alcohol" be, but I think "algebra" is Arabic.
02:36:02 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: It comes from Arabic
02:36:32 <FreeFull> Although it got mutated along the way
02:36:43 <FreeFull> Came in via alchemy
02:37:09 <zzo38> Wiktionary says from Arabic
02:38:05 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
02:38:05 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: Wait, but what about "chem"
02:38:05 <hppavilion[1]> As in "chemical"
02:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> Or did the greeks get the word, then decide it HAS to be greeky and inflecty?
02:38:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Algebra definitely is, and I'm pretty sure it comes from the authorship being "Al Gebra" and the transcriber mistaking that for (or thinking it sounded better than) the name given
02:39:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LLAMA CHICKEN).
02:39:05 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: In the word "alchemy", the "al" part came from Arabic, and the "chemy" ultimately from Greek
02:39:39 <hppavilion[1]> Oh?
02:40:18 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So... did the 'chem' go from greek to arabic, Arabic created 'al chemy', and the greeks adopted 'alchemy' and used it to make 'alcohol'?
02:40:35 <oerjan> zzo38: the muslims sometimes _do_ adjust tradition, but only as much as necessary. e.g. not to starve when ramadan falls in norwegian midsummer.
02:41:41 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: greek -> arabic -> medieval latin -> old french
02:42:09 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: That "Gebra" thing is not true."-- from Arabic al jabr ("in vulgar pronunciation, al-jebr" [Klein]) "reunion of broken parts," as in computation, used 9c. by Baghdad mathematician Abu Ja'far Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi as the title of his famous treatise on equations ("Kitab al-Jabr w'al-Muqabala" "Rules of Reintegration and Reduction") --"
02:42:25 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: 'alcohol' was initially an alchemical term, before it became more widespread
02:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> (With this formula, I can turn the phoneme cluster [ɛmiː] into [oʊhɑːɫ]!)
02:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
02:42:40 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, OK. It may also depend on denomination too I suppose; it also happens with Christian denominations and Jewish and Pagan and Wiccan denominations and so on as well though
02:43:05 <zzo38> (This may be the reason for UTC1 vs UTC0)
02:43:07 <shachaf> zzo38: What if my denomination is dollar bills?
02:43:43 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: So we were only a small change away from being taught Walmukob in schools?
02:44:08 <zzo38> shachaf: If they are US dollar bills (we don't use dollar bills in Canada) then it is done by the US laws for money I suppose
02:44:10 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: ...you realize that was a joke, right?
02:44:27 <zzo38> Yes, but I wanted to answer anyways
02:44:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure the Sunnis and the Shias don't debate over what time standard to use
02:44:30 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
02:44:33 <hppavilion[1]> OK, good
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02:45:05 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: No, but the start of a month is variable from Arab country to Arab country.
02:45:11 <shachaf> zzo38: what, only dollar coins? that's a bit loonie hth
02:45:39 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes it is, and that is how it is supposed to be
02:46:07 <shachaf> Coins are inconvenient. You should use only bills.
02:46:18 <shachaf> And also they should all be exactly the same size and color.
02:46:42 <pikhq> Bills are inconvenient. You should only use bitcoins.
02:46:48 <zzo38> Easter also may be different based on the Catholic or Orthodox they do it differently
02:46:51 <pikhq> But for convenience everyone should use the same wallet.
02:47:09 <ais523> it seems zzo38 has a similar reaction to jokes as me (to take them seriously in the hope of making the conversation more absurd)
02:47:30 <shachaf> ais523: Are you sure that's zzo38's motivation?
02:47:45 <ais523> shachaf: maybe not the motivation, but the reaction is similar even if the motivation is different
02:47:52 <pikhq> zzo38: The humorous thing is, it's not quite the same as that. The months are different in each Arab country because a month only starts when a full moon is observed. In that country. At the official observatory for that country.
02:47:57 <zzo38> shachaf: I prefer to use coins, and in Canadian also to have bills of different colours so that you can easily to know the difference
02:48:07 <shachaf> zzo38: Not if you're blind.
02:48:13 <pikhq> If a cloud's in the way, it never gets observed so the month doesn't start.
02:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Now that you mention it, I wonder when anchorage's large muslim community eats in the summer...
02:48:18 <hppavilion[1]> (during ramadan)
02:48:26 <shachaf> Do you like string diagrams?
02:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> (We have the same 24-hour sunlight)
02:48:35 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, and coins help better with blind
02:49:00 <zzo38> But shouldn't we have ephemerides by these days?
02:49:23 <pikhq> zzo38: *Some* Arab countries use those instead, yes.
02:49:29 <shachaf> zzo38: How much are the small blind and big blind in Canadian poker?
02:49:35 <zzo38> ais523: I myself am not so sure.
02:49:47 <zzo38> (of my motivation)
02:49:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw unless you were _completely_ joking, you may be confusing algebra with algorithm. take another look at fizzie's explanation above...
02:50:18 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know of any game called "Canadian poker".
02:50:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh! Right, it's that one, isn't it
02:50:33 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Looked it up, Holy crap, some crazy people actually fast from sunrise to sunset up there.
02:50:42 <zzo38> Even so they will probably vary like with other poker games
02:50:44 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Wow.
02:50:52 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Well, they did.
02:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> Now they're dead.
02:51:18 <hppavilion[1]> (Does IV count as fasting? What about at the hospital?)
02:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> (What happens to muslims who are in comas?)
02:51:35 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you can break fast if you're ill hth
02:51:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh. good hth.
02:51:48 <shachaf> Does optimizing a computer program count as fasting it?
02:51:50 <oerjan> it's one of the official exceptions.
02:51:55 <oerjan> (there are several.)
02:52:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Does that include if the muslim is rad (as in, "totally sick")?
02:52:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think being rad may be haram hth
02:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh
02:52:38 <pikhq> Note that "sunrise" and "sunset" are timed based on being able to see the sun itself, not on seeing sunlight. And in Anchorage you don't ever get an actual lack of sunset.
02:52:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Can some of your virgins be revoked in extenuating circumstances?
02:52:57 <pikhq> Instead, you get sunlight 24 hour but the sun is below the horizon for part of the day.
02:53:03 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: True, but it's hard to tell
02:53:32 <pikhq> What Muslim scholars suggest is, if following local time for Ramadan is impractical, use the time in Mecca.
02:53:48 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooh, that's actually pretty clever
02:54:04 <zzo38> Isn't that kind of like cheating?
02:54:23 <shachaf> `? this sentence
02:54:29 <HackEgo> This sentence is just. Taneb invented it.
02:54:44 <ais523> zzo38: I think there were some fairly famous statements about how if the rules are impossible to follow, you can substitute something similar
02:54:44 <shachaf> Do you "invent" sentences?
02:54:55 <ais523> "wash yourself with sand" to someone complaining about the lack of water to wash with
02:54:58 <shachaf> I think you sentence people to things, but what do you do when you create the sentence itself?
02:55:17 <oerjan> pikhq: s/full moon/new moon/ way above, i think
02:55:45 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, you assemble them hth
02:55:48 <pikhq> zzo38: Considering the alternative would probably mean nobody following Ramadan (per the fact that medical conditions are permitted exemptions)... not really?
02:55:57 <hppavilion[1]> (Sentences are like lego constructions)
02:56:00 <shachaf> I think you assemble contraptions.
02:56:06 <Cale> shachaf: lol, your sentences were always there, you're just discovering them
02:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody may have done it before, perhaps several times, but you did it independently.
02:56:19 <shachaf> hi Cale
02:56:21 <Cale> hi
02:56:23 <shachaf> What do you think of string diagrams?
02:56:37 <ais523> sentences are crafted, I think
02:56:38 <ais523> rather than invented
02:56:48 <shachaf> ais523: I'm talking about a judicial sentence.
02:56:50 <zzo38> pikhq: O, OK, I suppose it is better than nothing anyways. People should be allowed to follow their own religion themself, although it does help to have traditions and philosophy and so on and you can learn better from these things together with your own ideas
02:56:51 <Cale> I like them, though I don't know how useful they are in very complicated situation.
02:56:51 <Cale> s
02:56:53 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: But you can (theoretically) write a program that will iterate over all english sentences
02:57:11 <ais523> shachaf: those are chosen, because there's typically only a small finite number of possibilities
02:57:15 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, crafting has to be uniform and rigid, something a machine can do without 10 years of AI research
02:57:16 <shachaf> Cale: Are there places where geometric intuition can go wrong?
02:57:20 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: like "Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo."
02:57:23 <shachaf> ais523: "This sentence is just. Taneb chose it."?
02:57:38 <pikhq> It would be a little amusing if the way that settled is everyone fasted until it ceased to be healthy to do so, though.
02:57:40 <ais523> shachaf: well Taneb inventing things is a #esoteric meme
02:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I still think you assemble sentences
02:57:47 <ais523> he can invent things that can't logically be invented
02:57:55 <shachaf> `? tanebventions: math
02:57:56 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
02:58:03 <pikhq> Which would be not very long, as the fast includes liquids.
02:58:06 <shachaf> `? lambek's lemma
02:58:07 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
02:58:13 <shachaf> boring
02:58:42 <zzo38> One thing to do is to try to figure out the intention, I think. And then, see if it is good or not to you.
02:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> The components already existed, the rules to determine if it's allowed are set in stone (well, it's talc), and it may have been used before; you just put together the parts that make that particular sentence
02:58:56 <Cale> shachaf: I don't know about going wrong... but they're not terribly compact, and you end up wanting to express that one diagram is equal to another, which can be awkward if you have to do it a lot.
02:59:00 <zzo38> Blind faith is no good.
02:59:14 <Cale> shachaf: But for like, examining how the basic laws look and stuff, it's really nice.
02:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: You can't invent a sentence, but somebody did invent sentences in general, though likely accidentally hth
02:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> (The invention was changed over time to adjust the scope of permitted sentences)
02:59:52 <zzo38> (Whether you are Muslim, Chrisian, or atheist, either way is what I meant by my points made)
03:00:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Ah
03:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> Oh! It's a judicial sentence, I see
03:00:29 <Cale> Did Taneb invent the very notion of inventing things?
03:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> "This [judicial] sentence is just[ified]"
03:00:41 <shachaf> `? tanebvention
03:00:42 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
03:00:43 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: You administer sentences
03:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: No hth
03:01:15 <shachaf> Hmm, that entry used to say that Taneb invented Tanebventions. But not anymore.
03:01:30 <shachaf> Does the judge administer a sentence, or do people do that after the judge's sentencing?
03:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Problem: Taneb never invents anything involving sex, but humans can make ANYTHING sexual.
03:01:43 <shachaf> not true
03:01:55 <ais523> shachaf: he invented the sentence that describes Tanebventions
03:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's Greenspun's Third Theological Problem (regarding hell)
03:02:22 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: No, he invented a sentence iterating over a finite subset of tanebventions. That's different
03:02:23 <shachaf> ais523: Are you sure "this sentence" doesn't refer to the wisdom entry "this sentence"?
03:02:30 <hppavilion[1]> `? this sentence
03:02:31 <HackEgo> This sentence is just. Taneb invented it.
03:02:39 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, right
03:02:42 <zzo38> How much you know of theological problems anyways?
03:02:53 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I know Greenspun's Third theological problems
03:03:03 <ais523> shachaf: I'm not 100% sure the entry actually refers to anything, given that it's mostly a joke entry
03:03:35 <zzo38> Do you know Greenspun's other theological problem?
03:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> And also the problem of evil (omnibenevolent, omnipotent, omniscient -> ~evil anywhere), the problem of moving goalposts (god keeps getting farther away), and the obvious issue with God of the Gaps
03:04:41 <ais523> isn't Greenspun famous for not using contiguous numbers for things like laws?
03:05:02 <shachaf> Change-of-basis matrices have nonzero determinant. Taneb inverted them.
03:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Greenspun's Third Theological Problem is like Greenspun's Tenth Rule
03:05:25 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my favourite description of the (fictional, probably) Computer from Paranoia is "it's omnipotent, but doesn't realise it; and it's not omniscient, but believes it is"
03:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> Except it wasn't even invented by Greenspun, I just made it up right now.
03:06:05 <ais523> this is a pretty fun combintion of properties to have for a character in a fictional universe
03:06:09 <zzo38> Yes, and I have other ideas about those things anyways. Such as, God doesn't keep getting farther away it is just our point of view to do so (although this statement also oversimplifies it a bit perhaps).
03:06:15 <ais523> and AFAICT doesn't contain any internal inconsistencies
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03:11:50 <hppavilion[1]> OK, where does WHOIS's output come out protocol-wise?
03:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> Ah, I think I see...
03:31:29 <imode> are there any number-base-agnostic programming languages?
03:31:40 <imode> s/programming/estoeric
03:31:51 <imode> s/estoeric/esoteric
03:32:12 <ais523> imode: does Radixal!!!! count?
03:32:24 <imode> dunno, I'll check.
03:32:28 <ais523> I mean, there are plenty of languages that don't decompose numbers into digits at all, but I assume that's not what you meant
03:32:53 <shachaf> There are plenty of languages that don't have numbers.
03:32:56 <shachaf> Does that count?
03:33:03 <imode> brainfuck for example is like... kind of unary.
03:33:30 <imode> C has a way of specifying hexadecimal or decimal literals.
03:40:36 <izalove> `` echo fibonacci | sed -e's/.*/. ./;x;s/.*/./p;x;:l' -e's/\(.*\) \(.*\)/\2 \1\2/;h;s/ .*//p;x;bl' | head -7
03:40:37 <HackEgo> ​. \ . \ .. \ ... \ ..... \ ........ \ .............
03:40:55 <izalove> does that count as a language without numbers?
03:40:57 <imode> sed never fails to amaze me.
03:41:07 <ais523> it's TC
03:41:12 <imode> I'm aware.
03:41:13 <ais523> I wrote an interpreter for a TC language in it, I forget which offhand
03:41:21 * imode used to play sokoban in sed.
03:41:22 <izalove> i wrote a bf interpreter in sed
03:41:33 * izalove is boring
03:41:43 * izalove only does bf stuff
03:42:20 <imode> bf is fun.
03:45:48 <izalove> `` echo pow2 | sed -e's/.*/./;:a' -e'p;s/.*/&&/;ba' | head -7
03:45:49 <HackEgo> ​. \ .. \ .... \ ........ \ ................ \ ................................ \ ................................................................
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03:51:31 <ratpuke> Oerjan is my dad
03:53:22 <izalove> `welcome ratpuke
03:53:26 <HackEgo> ratpuke: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:53:30 <ratpuke> Thanks
03:54:34 <oerjan> I Have No Son HTH
03:55:23 <ratpuke> Boi
03:55:35 <ratpuke> You're old enough to have a daughter
03:57:42 <oerjan> that is true but i don't and it doesn't fit the meme hth
03:58:03 <oerjan> (technically i'm also old enough to have a granddaughter)
03:58:12 <ratpuke> Used to be a programmer am now a doctor nurse practitioner
03:58:22 <oerjan> wait, great granddaugher.
03:58:26 <ratpuke> I miss programming uwu
03:58:38 <oerjan> (the last one would require some creepiness)
03:58:56 <ratpuke> Oerjan you are 45 - 48 ???
03:59:00 <oerjan> yep
03:59:20 <ratpuke> Good I remembered correctly
04:00:01 <ratpuke> So how are you œrjan
04:00:35 <shachaf> oerjan is old enough to be his own grandpa
04:00:44 <shachaf> which he is, incidentally
04:01:27 <oerjan> i'm not my own grandpa.
04:02:04 <oerjan> my uncle is, however, iirc.
04:02:12 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:02:15 <shachaf> your uncle is your own grandpa?
04:02:22 <oerjan> no, his own hth
04:02:44 <ratpuke> Jeeze
04:02:46 <oerjan> unless i messed this up
04:02:47 <shachaf> what does it mean to be someone's hth
04:02:54 <ratpuke> Atleast shachaf isn't dead
04:03:02 <shachaf> who is ratpuke?
04:03:09 <oerjan> i may be dead. you are all illusions.
04:03:14 <ratpuke> Old attendee
04:03:30 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't remember.
04:03:33 <ratpuke> I changed my name and my house since I left
04:03:50 <oerjan> but you did not improve your manners?
04:04:26 <shachaf> changed your manor to another manor
04:04:37 <ratpuke> Its hard to keep manners at my house seeing as I have to super professional at the clinic
04:05:03 <ratpuke> To be*
04:06:02 <ratpuke> Let me be your doctor shachaf
04:06:12 <shachaf> I don't know who you are.
04:06:20 <shachaf> Did I know you by another name?
04:06:22 -!- Cale has joined.
04:06:24 <ratpuke> Actually no that's a conflict of interest scratch that forget I said that
04:06:51 <ratpuke> I forgot what name I came on here with last hence the new account let me remember in a bit
04:07:37 <ratpuke> Oerjan lest you wake up to find you were only ever a dream
04:08:00 <ratpuke> To the I may be dead you are all illusions
04:08:35 -!- Cale has quit (Max SendQ exceeded).
04:12:43 <shachaf> `? cut elimination
04:12:44 <HackEgo> The cut-elimination theorem states that any Prolog program written using the cut operator ! can be rewritten without using that operator.
04:13:45 <oerjan> `cwlprits cut elimination
04:13:47 <HackEgo> fizzïe evilips̈e shachäf
04:15:05 <shachaf> `` ls /bin
04:15:06 <HackEgo> bash \ bunzip2 \ bzcat \ bzcmp \ bzdiff \ bzegrep \ bzexe \ bzfgrep \ bzgrep \ bzip2 \ bzip2recover \ bzless \ bzmore \ cat \ chgrp \ chmod \ chown \ cp \ cpio \ dash \ date \ dd \ df \ dir \ dmesg \ dnsdomainname \ domainname \ echo \ ed \ egrep \ false \ fgrep \ findmnt \ fuser \ grep \ gunzip \ gzexe \ gzip \ hostname \ ip \ kill \ kmod \ less \
04:15:09 * oerjan wonders if that's somehow a special case of the real CET
04:15:20 -!- ratpuke has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
04:15:21 <shachaf> `` echo > /bin/chgrp
04:15:22 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /bin/chgrp: Read-only file system
04:15:42 <shachaf> `` ls /
04:15:43 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
04:15:46 <izalove> breatharians vs flat earthers
04:15:50 <izalove> pick your favorite
04:16:27 <shachaf> `mount
04:16:28 <HackEgo> none on /bin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/bin/) \ none on /usr type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/usr/) \ none on /dev type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/dev/) \ none on /opt type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/opt/) \ none on /lib type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/lib/) \ none on /sbin type hostfs (ro,nosuid,relatime,/sbin/) \ none on /lib64 type host
04:16:37 <shachaf> `` mount | grep rw
04:16:38 <HackEgo> none on /hackenv type hostfs (rw,nosuid,relatime,/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/) \ tmpfs on /tmp type tmpfs (rw,relatime) \ proc on /proc type proc (rw,relatime) \ sysfs on /sys type sysfs (rw,relatime)
04:16:38 <\oren\> flat earthers do less damage to their children. therefore they are my favorit
04:17:44 <izalove> that's debatable
04:18:45 <shachaf> `` ls -ld .hg
04:18:46 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 4 5000 5000 4096 Oct 23 21:01 .hg
04:18:52 <shachaf> `` touch .hg/abc
04:18:53 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `.hg/abc': Read-only file system
04:19:25 -!- `^_^v has joined.
04:20:14 -!- Cale has joined.
04:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> Should [θ] and [ð] be called the "Voic(ed/less) INTERdental fricative" rather than the "Voic(ed/less) dental fricative"?
04:23:52 <\oren\> YAY! the next version of my font will have a complete DINGBATS block
04:24:20 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x2700 0x27ff
04:24:20 <HackEgo> ​✀✁✂✃✄✅✆✇✈✉✊✋✌✍✎✏ \ ✐✑✒✓✔✕✖✗✘✙✚✛✜✝✞✟ \ ✠✡✢✣✤✥✦✧✨✩✪✫✬✭✮✯ \ ✰✱✲✳✴✵✶✷✸✹✺✻✼✽✾✿ \ ❀❁❂❃❄❅❆❇❈❉❊❋❌❍❎❏ \ ❐❑❒❓❔❕❖❗❘❙❚❛❜❝❞❟ \ ❠❡❢❣❤❥❦❧❨❩❪❫❬
04:25:37 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: correct, typically those symbols are used for the interdentals
04:27:18 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
04:28:16 -!- `^_^v has joined.
04:32:39 <hppavilion[1]> The voiceless glottal fricative (IPA [h], english <h>) is often used to modify consonants into... whatever
04:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> sh, zh, th, dh
04:34:27 <\oren\> yeah, I think we should use capital letters for that
04:34:36 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Why?
04:34:43 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: For stress?
04:34:45 <hppavilion[1]> Note that if the leading symbol is the voiced version of another symbol that exists in this combination (e.g. z/s, d/t), you voice the combination (zh is voiced sh, dh is voiced th)
04:35:26 <\oren\> becuase 'Du' is better than 'the
04:35:41 <hppavilion[1]> Some languages, however, have a voiced glottal fricative (IPA [ɦ], let's say that if we used it in english it'd also be [ɦ])
04:35:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Wait, what?
04:35:53 * hppavilion[1] is confused
04:36:03 <\oren\> u is like in "but"
04:36:07 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: OK...
04:36:18 <\oren\> so 'the' is 'Du'
04:36:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Are we saying that capital letters and miniuscule letters will be different? Like in X-SAMPA?
04:38:02 <\oren\> yeah. /ðʌ/ is "modified d, short u" so 'Du'
04:38:46 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh, are you suggesting we use something similar to X-SAMPA for IRC?
04:39:18 <\oren\> yeah
04:39:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, ch is [tS], but we'll treat it as distinct and say the voiced version- gh- is [dZ] aka /j/)
04:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> (gh, henceforth, does not make [f], because that's stupid.)
04:39:46 <\oren\> ch is C
04:40:05 <\oren\> I had u Cat wiT yU
04:40:59 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, ch is tS
04:41:09 <\oren\> gh would be more like the french r
04:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Can we make <j> [j] like in pretty much every other language?
04:41:27 <\oren\> you know, you pronounce a french r by choking on snails
04:41:33 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, gh is [dZ]
04:42:21 <hppavilion[1]> kh makes [x], qh (now, q:k::g:c) is [ɣ] which we write [G] apparently
04:42:38 <hppavilion[1]> (i'da gone with [Y], but it was presumably taken)
04:42:52 <\oren\> Y is a vowel
04:42:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Fine
04:43:14 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But what about in "yU"?
04:43:37 <\oren\> y glide followed by 'long U'
04:43:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm completely off track
04:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But y is a vowel you said
04:44:55 <\oren\> Y is. y is a vowel glide
04:45:06 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
04:45:45 <hppavilion[1]> We have sh (aka S), zh (aka Z), th (aka T) with rare variant dh (aka D), ch (aka tS aka C), gh (aka dZ aka old english j), kh (aka K), and qh (aka Q)
04:46:02 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/speliG.htm heres my spelig reform proposal
04:46:17 <hppavilion[1]> Let's restrict to sh, zh, th, dh, and ch temporarily
04:46:30 <\oren\> but I take it this would be a system not only for english
04:46:56 <izalove> https://i.imgur.com/JRnSQFI.jpg this is so cool
04:47:18 <hppavilion[1]> What sounds are sɦ, tɦ, zɦ, dɦ, and cɦ?
04:47:27 <hppavilion[1]> (ɦ is its own letter now)
04:49:28 <oerjan> <\oren\> you know, you pronounce a french r by choking on snails <-- actually, almost any mollusc will do hth
04:49:39 <hppavilion[1]> Question: If I want to write capital ɦ, what unicode do I use?
04:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ɦ
04:49:49 <HackEgo> ​[U+0266 LATIN SMALL LETTER H WITH HOOK]
04:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> `uniencode U+0286
04:51:40 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uniencode: not found
04:52:22 <hppavilion[1]> ʆ, apparently
04:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> How that's an ezh I'm unclear
04:54:35 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, how DOES one initialize a name with a digraph?
04:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> Also, is there a name for the process that gave us [s] -> [S], [t] -> [T], [z] -> [D], and [d] -> [D]?
04:57:13 <hppavilion[1]> `? subtle
04:57:14 <HackEgo> subtle? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:57:21 <oerjan> `? segmentation
04:57:21 <HackEgo> segmentation? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:57:36 <oerjan> `? segmentation fault
04:57:37 <HackEgo> The Segmentation Fault is just of the Silicon Valley and is known to produce various hiccups at the most inconvienent times.
04:57:39 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn subtle/The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear
04:57:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'subtle': The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear
04:58:02 <hppavilion[1]> `slwd subtle//s/$/.$/
04:58:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/subtle//The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear.$
04:58:09 <hppavilion[1]> ...creap
04:58:13 <hppavilion[1]> *crap
04:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> `slwd subtle//s/\$//
04:58:31 <HackEgo> wisdom/subtle//The 'b' sound is pronounced in 'subtle', it's just difficult to hear.
04:59:34 <shachaf> it's certainly not supertle
05:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> OK, really, what is the rule that transforms _ into _h?
05:08:04 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: it all started with latin
05:08:52 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: o rly?
05:09:05 <\oren\> when romans imported greek words that had aspirated c (/k/), aspirated r, and aspirated p
05:09:14 <\oren\> they spelled them with an h
05:09:46 <\oren\> like phi, chi, rho, and theta
05:10:10 <\oren\> these were originally pronounced with simple aspiration
05:10:24 <\oren\> but over time the language changed
05:11:04 <\oren\> and now those sounds are not simply aspirated versions anymore
05:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I want to generalize the process though
05:11:28 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make an 'nh' sound to horrify people
05:11:51 <\oren\> in latin that would probably have been a devoiced n
05:12:24 <\oren\> whereas in gaelic it would maybe be a alveolar appriximant?
05:13:04 <hppavilion[1]> I also want mg...
05:13:21 <\oren\> most languages have pretty ad-hoc spellig systems
05:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yes, and I want to make it uniform and non-ad-hoc, but in the opposite direction
05:15:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Rather than by changing the spelling, by changing the sounds)
05:16:38 <shachaf> There's no reason for spelling to correspond to sound.
05:16:46 <shachaf> Different dialects pronounce words different ways.
05:16:58 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe <mg> is the intradental nasal...
05:17:03 <hppavilion[1]> s/intra/inter/
05:20:00 <\oren\> shachaf: right like your dialect pronounces 'ch' as /x/?
05:20:49 <shachaf> My dialect doesn't assign a single pronunciation to "ch".
05:20:55 <shachaf> And nor does any other dialect I know how.
05:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> Which is wrong, because [x] should clearly be written <kh>
05:20:57 <shachaf> know of
05:21:07 <hppavilion[1]> Wrath of Khan
05:22:13 <shachaf> Anyway, the "ch" in my name is IPA χ, not x.
05:22:49 <\oren\> shachaf: my dialect pronounces 'ch' as either /tſ/ or /k/ in all cases I know of
05:24:04 <shachaf> What about "loch"?
05:25:09 <\oren\> pronounced identiacl to lock by most people
05:25:22 <\oren\> or as lotch
05:25:24 -!- godel has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
05:25:33 <shachaf> "Bach"?
05:25:59 <\oren\> that's not even remotely an english word
05:26:23 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Your dialect is wrong hth
05:26:38 <hppavilion[1]> (So is mine, to be fair, but I'm working on it, OK?)
05:26:46 <shachaf> "chutzpah"?
05:27:22 <shachaf> "machine"?
05:27:56 <\oren\> "chutzpah" <-- yeah, I defiantly don't consider THAT an english owrd
05:28:11 <shachaf> Really?
05:28:18 <\oren\> machine is a good point though.
05:28:31 <shachaf> It has a different meaning in English than in Hebrew (and Yiddish, as far as I know).
05:29:10 <\oren\> but seriously most english speakers can't pronounce /x/ and approximate it with /k/
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05:29:35 <shachaf> "chanukah"?
05:29:40 <\oren\> or h
05:29:50 <\oren\> shachaf: itym hanukkah
05:30:05 <shachaf> itidn
05:30:14 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: iaw \oren\. ydm hanukkah
05:30:17 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanukkah
05:30:58 <shachaf> The string "Chanukah" is right on that page.
05:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> What should the hypothetical letter making [x] be called?
05:31:27 <\oren\> Bach for example I have heard many people pronounce as bak
05:31:33 <shachaf> hippothetical
05:31:48 <hppavilion[1]> [ɛx], probably?
05:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> (written ×, of course)
05:33:48 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#Consonants <-- chart does not contain /x/
05:34:05 <shachaf> Are you some sort of prescriptivists?
05:34:50 -!- godel has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
05:35:02 <shachaf> s/s\b//
05:35:19 <shachaf> Also, it does.
05:35:33 <\oren\> no, just pointing out it's a marginal sound only used by people familiar with it though knowledge of foriegn phonology
05:35:44 <shachaf> It's right to the left of h
05:36:54 <\oren\> shachaf: are you really looking at the same chart?
05:38:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, you're just wrong
05:38:18 <shachaf> Oh, no, I was looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonants
05:38:31 <shachaf> Which is what I got by searching for "consonants" on that page and clicking the link.
05:39:09 <\oren\> https://s16.postimg.org/h4i3117ut/phonemes.png
05:39:25 <hppavilion[1]> Like, it's not prescriptivism to say someone is englishing wrong when they say "I have one dogs"
05:39:37 <shachaf> Yes it is?
05:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, I'm pretty sure it's not
05:39:58 <\oren\> The voiceless velar fricative /x/ is mainly used in Scottish and Hiberno-English; words with /x/ in Scottish accents tend to be pronounced with /k/ in other dialects. The velar fricative sometimes appears in recent loanwords such as chutzpah. Many speakers of White South African English realize /x/ as uvular [χ].[4]
05:40:08 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's at least not 1 sigma above the standard prescriptivism levels.
05:40:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Really, it's below)
05:42:18 <shachaf> If someone speaks that way, it's not wrong.
05:43:12 <shachaf> Or, rather: If someone speaks that way, it's prescriptivism to tell them that they're wrong.
05:43:14 <\oren\> shachaf: but it is a low-status dialect
05:43:35 <shachaf> See e.g. https://web.stanford.edu/~zwicky/aave-is-not-se-with-mistakes.pdf
05:50:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: AAVE is different
05:51:21 * hppavilion[1] immediately realizes shachaf's dialect could be AAVE
05:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> I just made a little program to correctly identify whether to use 'a' or 'an', but it's hacky
05:52:13 <hppavilion[1]> (In a string that is being randomly generated)
05:52:15 <shachaf> Certainly it's different.
05:53:39 <hppavilion[1]> I use 'a/n' (capitalized 'A/n') any time it's ambiguous. I have a master list of vowels, and I replace any occurrence of 'a/n' (or 'A/n') followed by a vowel or its upper case with an <that-vowel-potentially-upper>
05:55:32 <hppavilion[1]> For words that start with a consonant orthographically but a vowel in theory, an additional pseudo-vowel ^ is used where 'a/n ^' (or 'A/n ^') becomes 'an ' (or 'An ')
05:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> s%in theory%out loud, like 'hour'%
05:56:52 <hppavilion[1]> And for words that start with a vowel orthographically but not in speech (not sure if any exist though), the opposite ! is used which is the same but with 'a' or 'A' instead of 'an' or 'An'
05:56:53 <shachaf> s#%#℅#g
05:58:06 <hppavilion[1]> Then any remaining ^s are stripped, any remaining !s, and all remaining 'a/n's become 'a' and 'A/n's 'A'
05:58:11 <hppavilion[1]> Clunky, but it works
06:01:58 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: "use" hth
06:02:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah, thank you
06:03:41 <\oren\> a nother
06:04:16 <\oren\> a whole nother problem
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06:19:45 <lifthrasiir> `unicode ℅
06:19:48 <HackEgo> U+2105 CARE OF \ UTF-8: e2 84 85 UTF-16BE: 2105 Decimal: &#8453; \ ℅ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Decomposition: <compat> 0063 002F 006F
06:20:00 <lifthrasiir> huh.
06:20:34 <ais523> lifthrasiir: it's a really common typo on Android
06:20:50 <ais523> because it's right next to % on the mobile keyboard
06:20:50 <lifthrasiir> ais523: really? can it be typed normally?
06:20:54 <lifthrasiir> oh lol
06:21:01 * lifthrasiir has never seen that symbol
06:21:08 <ais523> and they look really similar so inattentive people frequently pick the wrong one
06:21:18 <ais523> no idea why Android placed in on their default keyboard, but they did…
06:21:24 <ais523> *it
06:21:32 <ais523> also I was aware of it beforehand
06:21:51 <ais523> it's used in addresses, when you send a piece of (physical) mail to one person, but it's intended for another person
06:21:52 <lifthrasiir> so it is used for postal routing, TIL
06:22:22 <ais523> e.g. if you're sending mail to someone who's on holiday, you can send mail to the guest ℅ the host, followed by the host's address
06:22:24 <lifthrasiir> frankly speaking I never seen like that, I think I've seen (for example) ⅊ several times
06:22:35 <ais523> actually it's quite similar to a bang path from very early email
06:22:42 <ais523> "send the mail to this person, who will deliver it to that person"
06:22:49 <lifthrasiir> yeah, that's what I reminded of
06:23:20 <ais523> I've received mail routed like that in the past, but I can't remember why
06:24:17 <ais523> quite why this would be useful on a mobile phone, I don't know, given that smartphones were invented well after postal mail mostly died out
06:24:37 <lifthrasiir> ais523: in my country I have never seen such a thing probably because the recipient is probably not considered for the routing
06:25:10 <lifthrasiir> only the address is significant to mail carriers
06:25:30 <ais523> the name of the recipient is normally only relevant over here for resolving typos
06:25:56 <ais523> if someone typos the house number then you can sometimes figure out where to deliver the letter from the recipient's name
06:26:07 <ais523> especially in rural areas where everyone knows who lives where
06:26:20 <lifthrasiir> that's a good point
06:26:44 <ais523> I've seen this sort of thing happen in practice more than once
06:27:13 <lifthrasiir> (modern) Korean addresses are relatively better standardized so such thing might not have been required
06:27:52 <ais523> in the UK we have, or should have, two unique identifiers on each address: {house number, postcode} and {house number, address}
06:28:25 <lifthrasiir> wait, no postcode required?
06:28:27 <ais523> most of the time when you tell someone your address in person at a store or the like, they use one to input the value and the other as verification
06:28:50 <ais523> the postcode isn't technically required but the post office will yell at you for not using it
06:28:56 <ais523> they have little rubber stamps that say "please use the postcode"
06:28:58 <ais523> they deliver it anyway though
06:29:06 <lifthrasiir> that's generous :p
06:31:14 <pikhq> The US doesn't have said rubber stamps at all, but they will deliver without a ZIP code.
06:31:41 <ais523> your zip codes are way more ambiguous than our postcodes, though
06:31:48 <ais523> one postcode narrows things down to around ten houses
06:32:06 <pikhq> Yeah, the ZIP code typically narrows down to a post office.
06:32:08 <ais523> and things are typically arranged so that they all have different numbers (typically they're all adjacent on the same road)
06:32:36 <pikhq> Except for a ZIP+4, which is substantially more specific.
06:32:43 <ais523> but then, a postcode is {one or two letters}, {small integer}, digit, letter, letter
06:33:06 <pikhq> But it's generally only businesses with an automated system in place that will use a ZIP+4.
06:33:14 <ais523> which is a pretty well-designed format because it can't run out (the "small integer"s value is "as small as necessary" but it can get quite large when the numbers would otherwise run out)
06:33:56 <pikhq> (A ZIP+4 will refine down to a city block, apartment complex, or an individual high-volume receiver of mail)
06:34:19 <ais523> incidentally, the small integer in question is also placed on the street name road signs that exist on pretty much every street corner
06:34:34 <ais523> in order to help you figure out where you are if you're lost and on a road with a commonly used name (e.g. "Church Road")
06:34:56 <ais523> the assumption is that you know which town or city you're in, but not necessarily where you are within that town or city
06:35:12 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. *Part* of why nobody cares that much at the post office is we've got automated machines that read in an address and spray on the matching ZIP+4 and delivery point as a barcode.
06:35:13 <ais523> and the "postcode areas" in question are shown on maps
06:35:42 <ais523> I guess that's all mostly obsolete in the days of GPS, though
06:36:56 <pikhq> Also, the USPS has this weird thing that they will deliver mail anywhere where they can figure out WTF you *meant*. Weird pride thing, I think.
06:37:12 <ais523> the Royal Mail is like that too
06:37:50 <pikhq> You've got pretty good odds of getting mail routed properly just by scrawling "Google" on an envelope and mailing it.
06:38:14 <pikhq> Granted, it'll probably take longer.
06:38:58 <ais523> the market forces on mail over here are also somewhat weird
06:38:58 <zzo38> I have read they mailed various stuff to Robert Ripley even though strange addressing, but then eventually posted a notice saying they would no longer deliver it if it was addressed incorrectly.
06:39:10 <ais523> as a result of email outcompeting it
06:39:28 <ais523> we used to have two standards of mail delivery, first class which was next-day if posted before a certain time
06:39:38 <ais523> and second-class which was a bit slower, typically a few days
06:39:52 <ais523> anyway, second class was originally much cheaper, so people used it for most things
06:40:11 <ais523> but nowadays second class is not only substantially slower than it used to be, but also it's only marginally cheaper than first class
06:40:28 <ais523> meaning it's basically only ever used for junk mail
06:41:09 <pikhq> First-class mail here is any postcard, letter, large envelope, or package 13 oz or smaller.
06:41:35 <pikhq> i.e. you don't even really have the option of using second class for your letter.
06:42:21 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Are there any languages where [m] and [n] are allophones )
06:42:47 <pikhq> Course, first-class mail here also doesn't have an attempt to be next-day.
06:43:10 <imode> I wonder if I could say that anything defined within [ and ] is always an anonymous, recursive function that's always evaluated when encountered..
06:43:24 <imode> yeah, that's a fancy way of saying a while loop.
06:43:25 <ais523> I believe the UK still has the next-day thing going but has relaxed the timings within the day
06:43:36 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: Japanese?
06:43:38 <ais523> i.e. you have to post early morning and it might arrive late afternoon the day after
06:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: first-class mail is mail that you can send within another letter or embed it into text
06:44:24 <hppavilion[1]> ?
06:44:39 <ais523> imode: it's not necessarily a while loop; it's more of a forever loop, but I don't see any reason it necessarily even has to be tail-recursive
06:44:39 <pikhq> Understandbly: first-class mail is required by law to be the same cost for *any address served by the USPS*, so for them to make that would imply a fairly expensive bit of postage.
06:44:46 <ais523> it's more of a ({})%-1
06:45:08 <imode> ais523: in my language, [ and ] is just while(1){}
06:45:20 <ais523> pikhq: because the US is so large and there's no restriction on which states you can send it to?
06:45:25 <pikhq> ais523: Bingo.
06:45:35 <ais523> imode: I'm taking the definition of "anonymous recursive function that's always evaluated when encountered"
06:45:49 <pikhq> If you did it within, say, a 100 mile radius it'd probably be pretty reasonable.
06:45:50 <ais523> hitting the timing restrictions in the UK used to be fairly hard
06:45:58 <ais523> they had dedicated overnight train services for the longer-distance mail
06:46:07 <pikhq> Within your state would only be reasonable for some states.
06:46:35 <ais523> probably that's why the timing restrictions were relaxed, come to think of it
06:46:49 <pikhq> More or less the only way to hit such a timing restriction for some states would be airmail.
06:47:47 <ais523> now I'm wondering how fast those pneumatic tubes that some stores use to transfer cash around can go
06:48:58 <pikhq> You'd probably appreciate the (no longer operating) New York pneumatic tube mail system.
06:49:21 <pikhq> Hrm. Mail there went up to 35 mph.
06:52:17 <shachaf> Unfortunately that doesn't scale to long distances.
06:52:23 <shachaf> @google alameda-weehawken burrito tunnel
06:52:25 <lambdabot> http://idlewords.com/2007/04/the_alameda_weehawken_burrito_tunnel.htm
06:52:25 <lambdabot> Title: The Alameda-Weehawken Burrito Tunnel (Idle Words)
06:53:00 <ais523> hmm… perhaps using the hyperloop for cargo would turn out to be more useful than using it for transporting humans
06:53:03 <ais523> less danger if it goes wrong, for one thing
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06:56:11 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: m and n are allophones in romaji japanese
06:57:12 <pikhq> \oren\: Only in some locations.
06:57:44 <\oren\> like you can represent ん as n in ほんと or m in せんぱい
06:57:51 <pikhq> "na" and "ma" are different sounds, but the n/m in "senpai" or "sempai" are the same phoneme.
06:57:53 <FireFly> <pikhq> Also, the USPS has this weird thing that they will deliver mail anywhere where they can figure out WTF you *meant*. Weird pride thing, I think. ← Reminds me of http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-37233913
06:59:06 <ais523> FireFly: that seems like a pretty precise way to describe a location
06:59:11 <pikhq> Though, in modified Hepburn they are never allophones.
06:59:58 <pikhq> (but few people actually write formally correct romaji in a single system)
07:00:25 <FireFly> ais523: sure, though very nonstandard
07:01:43 <FireFly> 'The picture has prompted readers to share other miraculous postal stories; such as the tale of the Christmas card sent from Germany, which somehow arrived at the right place despite only being addressed to "England".' hmm
07:01:55 <FireFly> that sounds like an impressive feat
07:03:16 <lifthrasiir> http://text-mode.tumblr.com/post/31409503070/russian-postmen-fix-an-error-caused-by-an is a canonical example of such a feat
07:03:46 <FireFly> Oh yeah
07:05:03 <FireFly> It's pretty impressive to be honest
07:06:31 <zzo38> Did they have to look at the message inside the envelope to figure it out?
07:07:49 <pikhq> For the mojibake one? Doubtful. TBH pretty much any Russian Internet user would be familiar with that sort of mojibake.
07:08:00 <ais523> lifthrasiir: that doesn't seem that difficult, all you need to know is the existence of mojibake
07:08:12 <zzo38> I mean for only being addressed to "England"
07:08:37 <ais523> it's basically the same as ordinary language except that all the letters have different shapes
07:08:39 <pikhq> Perhaps need some work to map it, but mojibake was pretty serious in Russia.
07:08:45 <zzo38> (The German post office should know to forward it to the English post office, but then the English post office has to figure it out)
07:08:49 <lifthrasiir> ais523: I don't think so, since one also needs to guess the encoding
07:08:51 <ais523> but it's still just a 1-to-1 translation, and one that can readily be looked up
07:09:01 <pikhq> Courtesy of there being several mutually incompatible encodings for Russian.
07:09:05 <ais523> lifthrasiir: well yes, but there's a small finite number of possibilities there
07:09:24 <zzo38> I live in Canada. I once posted a piece of black string (with no writing or pictures or whatever) to see if it would get delivered correctly (somehow I thought that it would); it did not get delivered.
07:09:24 <lifthrasiir> it might well be possible that the post office reached for external help
07:09:26 <pikhq> And they can easily be figured out because the wrong encodings will be gibberish.
07:10:15 <zzo38> Mojibake should be easy enough to figure out yes. That is different from writing only "England" or writing no address at all.
07:10:27 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: could you decipher those black strings?
07:10:45 <pikhq> zzo38: The one directed to "England" almost certainly needed opening.
07:10:54 <ais523> zzo38: did you have someone in mind as the intended recipient?
07:11:05 <zzo38> ais523: Yes; myself
07:11:18 <pikhq> I would anticipate the UK is much like the US in that the post office is legally allowed to open a letter if it's necessary to correctly deliver it.
07:11:24 <zzo38> (But that was when I was young and somehow thought of strange things like that)
07:11:34 <oerjan> pikhq: in this case they probably guessed fast that the first word was "Россия"
07:12:08 <pikhq> oerjan: That'd help.
07:12:36 <ais523> btw, I tried to decode the icelandic map
07:12:48 <ais523> purely based on satellite images and the landmarks shown on the map, you can narrow it down to about three farms
07:12:58 <ais523> and one of them appears to farm crops rather than sheep
07:13:05 <pikhq> And the postman probably knew who was being talked about.
07:13:15 <ais523> yes
07:15:07 <zzo38> If I worked in the post office in England and received the letter addressed only to "England", I would assume that it was addressed to the post office and open it anyways, and then can see if it is clearly for someone else then it can be forwarded.
07:15:47 <zzo38> (And if I worked in a post office somewhere else, I would have simply forwarded it to England without opening it.)
07:17:06 <ais523> here's the letter addressed just "England": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-35174646
07:17:27 <ais523> it was unopened, but believed that it had a more complete address at one point, which fell off en route
07:17:36 <ais523> and by that point it was already in the correct city
07:18:30 <FireFly> so at that point it boils own to knowing who receives occasional mail from germany, I guess
07:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> Is there such thing as 3peg?
07:19:33 <ais523> yes, they outright said that's how they solved it, by asking everyone in the area if they were expecting mail from germany
07:19:39 <hppavilion[1]> (jpeg for voxelular imagery)
07:20:05 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: h.264 (mp4)
07:20:18 <ais523> they might not be the three dimensions you were expecting but it still works
07:21:19 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Is it like layering?
07:21:19 <oerjan> heh
07:22:58 <hppavilion[1]> Also, what's the vector equivalent of voxelling?
07:26:42 <imode> rasterizing?
07:30:03 <zzo38> I have some ideas about making up Magic: the Gathering cards see if you like or what comment of it please. One idea is if a card has "At the beginning of each combat damage step, you gain life equal to the amount of damage marked on ~."
07:30:54 <zzo38> (Maybe it should be a card with first strike also, or with another ability that can temporarily grant itself first strike)
07:32:14 <zzo38> (Since then you can earn life points more than once)
07:32:46 <zzo38> Actually, perhaps don't add first strike (rely on other cards having it), but maybe to put banding
07:33:22 <ais523> perhaps it should have an ability like "1W: target creature gains first strike until end of turn"
07:33:24 <zzo38> (No, not first strike, maybe last strike!)
07:33:46 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, OK that can help better
07:34:02 <ais523> that way you can create extra combat damage steps by giving it to another creature you control (while also helping in combat), or give a blocker first strike to get damage marked on it
07:34:03 <zzo38> I like your idea better
07:34:16 <zzo38> Yes, I did realize that when you said
07:40:32 <zzo38> Another idea to make a card: At the beginning of your draw step, put a charge counter on ~. ;; At the beginning of each opponent's draw step, that opponent exiles his hand and then puts the bottom X cards of his library into his hand, where X is twice the number of charge counters on ~.
07:43:09 <ais523> that's sort of like a cross between midnight oil (in reverse) and forced fruition
07:43:14 <ais523> what do you think of those cards?
07:44:30 <ais523> `card-by-name Midnight Oil
07:44:31 <HackEgo> No output.
07:44:36 <ais523> `card-by-name Forced Fruition
07:44:37 <HackEgo> Forced Fruition \ 4UU \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent casts a spell, that player draws seven cards. \ LRW-R
07:44:42 <ais523> I guess this thing doesn't have Kaladesh yet
07:45:02 <zzo38> Then you should add Kaladesh
07:45:44 <zzo38> But, I looked on Gatherer so that I can see its working.
07:48:15 <zzo38> Forced Fruition certainly look to be very powerful (although you should probably play some counterspells too); can be even better if combined with Underworld Dreams.
07:49:17 <zzo38> Midnight Oil looks like it can be risky to use, but it may be good in the right circumstances.
07:50:02 <ais523> `card-by-name Underworld Dreams
07:50:03 <HackEgo> Underworld Dreams \ BBB \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent draws a card, Underworld Dreams deals 1 damage to him or her. \ LE-U, 8ED-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R, M10-R
07:50:25 <ais523> hmm, that'd work well with Forced Fruition if the opponents were on low life
07:50:39 <ais523> above that, though, you'd probably want to win via making them draw from an empty library
07:51:44 <zzo38> Yes, that is generally how you should win by Forced Fruition, but if you are playing black as well as blue then you might want to have both just in case
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09:00:22 <hppavilion[1]> Huh.
09:01:09 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently people have picked up on the fact that my company outfits truck exhaust with apiocides.
09:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> They're starting to get upset about the bees dying.
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09:12:43 <hppavilion[1]> No new xkcd
09:12:49 <hppavilion[1]> Getting worried
09:14:06 <imode> randall is dead!
09:14:09 <imode> ogawd!
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09:24:17 <int-e> ... oh xkcd hasn't updated.
09:27:31 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Worrying, right?
09:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm constantly refreshing the news to wait for reports of his death to stream in
09:30:02 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], it sometimes updates quite late
09:58:11 <shachaf> `? nite
09:58:12 <HackEgo> nite? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:01:34 <b_jonas> @messages (I don't think I have any, but why not try)
10:01:35 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
10:07:10 <shachaf> `` dowg oerjan | grep -i nite
10:07:12 <HackEgo> No output.
10:07:19 <shachaf> `? oerjan
10:07:20 <HackEgo> Your venerated itymologist gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
10:08:24 <myname> octoberlord?
10:12:11 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#st#st knite#
10:12:12 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your venerated itymologist knite gracious octoberlord oerjan is a lazy expert in suture complication. Also a Pre-recombination Glaswegian who passionfruitly dislikes Roald Dahl. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
10:12:24 <shachaf> Yes, oerjan is Lord of October.
10:15:46 <Taneb> `tanebventions
10:15:47 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tanebventions: not found
10:15:52 <Taneb> `? tanebventions
10:15:53 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
10:16:29 <Taneb> `? _46bit
10:16:31 <HackEgo> _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
10:16:43 <Taneb> `? go
10:16:44 <HackEgo> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
10:17:08 <olsner> Taneb, possibly the best Tanebventor
10:17:20 <Taneb> `? fueue
10:17:21 <HackEgo> fueue? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:19:36 <Taneb> `? sand
10:19:36 <HackEgo> Sand is what microprocessors are made of. Taneb invented it.
10:22:30 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you ever play Shade?
10:22:31 <shachaf> http://www.eblong.com/zarf/zweb/shade/
10:22:37 <shachaf> short game
10:22:47 <Taneb> shachaf, I have not
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10:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> Under the standard model... there are 6 types of lepton, 6 types of quark, and 5 bosons
10:29:04 <hppavilion[1]> Why not 6 bosons? Why not consistency?
10:36:37 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particles#Bosons lists six, with one unconfirmed
10:40:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Oh. That explains it.
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11:30:08 <lynn> `? lynn
11:30:09 <HackEgo> lynn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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11:30:24 <lynn> Perfect IMO.
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11:50:14 <boily> `wisdom
11:50:15 <HackEgo> manometer//A manometer is a device for testing real men by putting them under pressure.
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14:40:44 <izalove> if you have an unsorted vector, you can pretend it's a linked list
14:41:11 <izalove> to remove an element in the middle, move the last element to the middle position
14:41:19 <izalove> then vect.pop_back()
14:42:49 <izalove> ok i realize that you're all very smart but this was a nice trick imo <.<
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16:07:45 <Taneb> izalove, that is a nice trick!
16:12:36 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x267A 0x267E
16:12:42 <HackEgo> ​♺♻♼♽♾
16:18:01 <shachaf> `olist 1056
16:18:02 <HackEgo> olist 1056: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:18:04 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x26B9 0x26bf
16:18:05 <HackEgo> ​⚹⚺⚻⚼⚽⚾⚿
16:19:01 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x2745 0x274c
16:19:02 <HackEgo> ​❅❆❇❈❉❊❋❌
16:19:31 <b_jonas> Strange
16:19:54 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x293e 0x293f
16:19:56 <HackEgo> ​⤾⤿
16:20:37 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x2741 0x2743
16:20:38 <HackEgo> ​❁❂❃
16:20:46 <\oren\> b_jonas: what's strange?
16:20:52 <b_jonas> I seem to remember a rumour that the colon builtin in the bash-like shells was added in ancient times back when there were no shebang lines, to distinguish sh scripts from csh scripts, so that when csh saw it in the first line of a shell script, it invoked sh or something
16:21:10 <b_jonas> or maybe backwards, sh invoked csh if it saw that
16:21:55 <b_jonas> but now I did a web search, and http://unix.stackexchange.com/q/31673 indicates that its history is that it was used to mark labels, when the shell had a goto statement (currently only tcsh has that, bash doesn't)
16:22:13 <\oren\> `u8tbl 0x27ad 0x27bf
16:22:13 <HackEgo> ​➭➮➯ \ ➰➱➲➳➴➵➶➷➸➹➺➻➼➽➾➿
16:23:20 <b_jonas> (the dos cmd and the windows shell also uses a leading colon to make a label you can goto in a batch file)
16:26:40 <b_jonas> maybe I should spread the rumour that the colon is for compatibility with the windows shell, so that you can write comments that work in both, since # is an ordinary character for the windows shell and ' doesn't work as a comment char in the unix shell
16:28:31 <\oren\> ♺♻♼♽♾⚹⚺⚻⚼⚽⚾⚿❅❆❇❈❉❊❋❌❁❂❃➭➮➯➰➱➲➳➴➵➶➷➸➹➺➻➼➽➾➿⚰⚱ aww that's not that many characters...
16:28:59 <\oren\> at least now I have all the dingbats
16:30:39 <\oren\> it was especially hard to draw like ten distinguishable asterisks and snowflakes
16:30:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you have mail envelope and telephone dingbats too?
16:30:47 <\oren\> yep
16:31:19 <b_jonas> ah, this ✆ is probably the telephone one
16:31:28 <\oren\> yes
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16:37:15 <b_jonas> And ✉ is the envelope
16:39:03 <\oren\> yes
16:39:22 <\oren\> those were easy to draw
16:41:00 <\oren\> I just had to spend quite some time experimenting to figure out how to draw all those damn snowflakes and asterisks different
16:44:08 <\oren\> sometimes the unicode consortium are meanies
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16:58:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: the snowflakes don't come from the unicode consortium, I think. it comes from those two and a half 256-character dingbat fonts from windows 16 before unicode, and now they had to encode all the characters in those so documents using them can be upgraded.
16:59:27 <dingbat> Goshdarn dingbats
16:59:42 <b_jonas> ok, not really 256 character, I think they only have like 224 characters each or something, but they're fonts back when you just chose a different font when you wanted a different single-byte encoding.
17:01:55 <\oren\> wow, wallonia is still holding out
17:02:53 <\oren\> looks like the beginning of the end for globalbism
17:03:55 <\oren\> President of the European Commission Jean-Claude Juncker has also urged the 28 member states to “fight against stupid populists.”
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17:10:26 <\oren\> Chrystia freeland is the MP for my riding, but I didn't vote for her
17:12:27 <\oren\> I voted for Jennifer Hollett, because Chrystia didn't seem to care about local issues
17:15:58 <\oren\> I just wanted someone who would make the trains run on time
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18:00:05 <\oren\> http://i.imgur.com/CznBOoj.jpg
18:00:11 <\oren\> Vlad the Inhaler
18:00:39 <APic>
18:07:23 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hnURox5G28
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18:11:14 <\oren\> I wonder if peЯoco is supposed to be ペロコ or ペヤオコ
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18:22:28 <alercah> `? day
18:22:29 <HackEgo> day? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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18:50:30 <hppavilion[1]> Strictly speaking, even a rather small 64x64 image tells over 3000 words.
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19:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, good
19:15:02 <hppavilion[1]> Randall isn't dead
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19:29:08 <\oren\> `unicode ə
19:29:10 <HackEgo> U+0259 LATIN SMALL LETTER SCHWA \ UTF-8: c9 99 UTF-16BE: 0259 Decimal: &#601; \ ə (Ə) \ Uppercase: U+018F \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
19:31:01 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_alphabet
19:44:52 <izalove> `unidecode 【=◈︿◈=】
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19:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> Fun fact: Jesse's Girl (1) had brown eyes and (2) has a daughter named Stacy from a previous marriage
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21:53:35 <izalove> what tools can parse grammars that require infinite lookahead?
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23:10:33 <boily> `wisdom
23:10:35 <HackEgo> 9//9 is a free smalltalk.
23:22:58 <fizzie> Well, that's handy: my mobile operator's "account balance" page has switched units from megabytes to gigabytes.
23:23:05 <fizzie> And they also don't do fractions.
23:24:52 <fizzie> So it's been showing "1" for the last 9 days, and I have no idea how much of the gigabyte is left.
23:25:44 <Zarutian> fizzle: call them that there after you are only going to pay in kilopounds and only when the bill reaches that.
23:26:09 <fizzie> It's a pre-paid thing, so I don't think I can use that trick.
23:26:58 <fizzie> I'm still hoping they'll switch units once the remaining allowance goes under one full gigabyte. Extrapolating from historical trends, that should've already happened, but it's not entirely impossible it hasn't.
23:27:22 <fizzie> But quite possibly they're just rounding to nearest and it'll flip from "1" to "0" at half a gigabyte.
23:27:36 <Zarutian> I thought telecoms only used bits as the units of data.
23:28:00 <fizzie> Bits are for speed, bytes are for volume.
23:28:12 <Zarutian> bits per seconds are for speed
23:28:22 <Zarutian> just bits are for volume.
23:28:28 <fizzie> Just bits aren't for anything.
23:29:01 <Zarutian> Aaand we have a sign phrase for a protestor
23:29:02 <fizzie> Well, not exactly. Just bits are for bragging on your phone spec sheet. (64 instead of 32.)
23:29:58 <Zarutian> well, I am off to bed
23:30:14 * Zarutian is unseen for the seen.
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23:38:46 <izalove> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vGjmZNbKGE
23:40:34 <boily> izellove. that is some sweet animation.
23:43:13 <izalove> you're welcome boily
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23:53:34 <boily> time to go clog my arteries with fat, grease, and greasy fat...
23:53:42 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Congratulations.
23:53:48 <boily> hppavilion[1]: POUTIIIIIIIIINE!
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23:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> [generic question] If/when humans branch out to other planets (when it's been done for a while and we have the space infrastructure; not at the very beginning) how do you think we're likely to go about organizing? Will nations be united under a world super-nation (like the EU, but planet-wide), will nations tend to control entire planets, or will it just be a horrible mess of nation-splitting where countries are often split between
23:56:10 <hppavilion[1]> multiple planets, each of which tends to host multiple parts of countries?
23:58:01 <fizzie> It's going to just be colonialism IN SPACE hth hand
23:59:55 <shachaf> `? hand
23:59:56 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
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