00:00:38 in the log shachaf linked there were 1890 extra lines 00:01:27 Oh, fancy. 00:01:45 I wonder if Freenode is busy sending lambdabot "cannot send to channel" messages 00:02:04 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: -n. 00:02:05 that should be less work than sending it to everyone in this channel 00:02:05 C,C 6 00:02:07 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +n. 00:02:10 yep 00:03:02 . o O ( does it follow zipf's law ) 00:03:12 of course it follows it. 00:03:23 wisdom zipf 00:03:24 That's not wise. 00:03:43  grep -FIinrs zipf wisdom/* 00:03:49 No output. 00:03:51 ... 00:03:55 ? zipf 00:03:56 zipf? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:04:12 that might have something to do with it 00:04:17 also, that is a /lot/ of flags to grep 00:04:20 oh, it was one of my quotes. 00:04:26 quote zipf 00:04:27 1121) everything is either zipf, branford, poisson, gamma, or uniform. outside of that, it's a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers. 00:04:39 unary is the only number system that matters. 00:04:48 boily: err, isn't that missing the normal distribution? 00:05:02 shocking 00:05:04 which is the most common distribution in existence, due to the central limit theorem? 00:05:21 yes, every time I stumble upon that quote I'm like: «comment ai-je pu oublier la distribution normale...» 00:05:24 But what is the distribution that I had given the cdf for? 00:05:33 I mean x/(x+1) what is that one called? 00:05:44 well technically that doesn't prevent it from being a weird curve invented by sadistic statistics teachers. 00:06:07 int-e: you may be interested in the above mode of spam hth 00:07:14 zzo38: well it's df is -log(x+1), i think 00:07:26 *its 00:07:40 no wait 00:08:01 wrong direction, it's -1/(x+1)^2 00:08:20 or wait 00:08:23 *-- 00:08:27 the signs cancel 00:08:36 df is 1/(x+1)^2 dx hth 00:08:53 Yes, I figured that already 00:08:58 It doesn't tell me what it is called, though 00:11:25 -!- Elronnd has joined. 00:11:30 [wiki] [[User:Elronnd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50061&oldid=50028 * Elronnd * (-3) 00:12:22 -!- lambdabot has joined. 00:12:24 monqy 3 00:12:28 mr- 3 00:12:30 -!- lambdabot has left. 00:12:48 gotta have monqy 00:13:17 wut 00:13:42 zzo38: it may be beta prime distribution with α, β = 1 00:14:13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_prime_distribution 00:14:36 (found via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_probability_distributions#Supported_on_semi-infinite_intervals.2C_usually_.5B0.2C.E2.88.9E.29) 00:15:44 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:16:12 yep, looks like it 00:16:35 -!- Jafet has joined. 00:18:11 Is that how incomplete beta function is working? 00:20:07 B(a,b) = (a-1)!(b-1)!/(a+b-1)! was listed on the page for it 00:21:19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_function#Incomplete_beta_function but this doesn't need that. 00:21:49 just ordinary beta 00:22:35 Elronnd: Helloronnd. shachaf unleashed lambdie on us in a catastrophic accident. 00:25:04 @tell int-e lambdabot has been misbehaving hth 00:25:09 er--- 00:25:42 still works in private, at least 00:28:37 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:33:40 ugh 00:34:24 I just realized the esolang I made has 256^256^256 possible states 00:34:52 maybe I should change it to 4^4^4 00:35:07 too big 00:35:18 3^3^3? 00:35:35 so FSM? 00:35:37 1^1^1 seems like the sweet spot 00:35:38 seems nice and managable, but hard to do math with 00:35:52 no, *up to* 00:36:05 because there's up to 256 dimensions 00:36:10 up to 256 size 00:36:29 & up to 256 distinct values a cell can hold 00:36:41 (that's to say, it can only hold one) 00:36:57 but the program specifies the size of those numbers 00:37:07 Yurume_____: FSM? 00:37:17 ? FSM 00:37:19 An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages. 00:37:29 ...k 00:37:41 hah. 00:38:16 shachaf: is lambdabot down to 1 yet? 00:38:21 oh hm 00:38:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 00:38:31 -!- lambdabot has joined. 00:38:33 23 1 00:38:37 2h 1 00:38:39 -!- lambdabot has left. 00:38:42 yep 00:38:46 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 00:39:02 hm are they alphabetical within each size? 00:39:25 what's lambdabot again? 00:39:41 * Elronnd has been away for a while 00:39:57 signs point to yes. 00:40:19 Elronnd: haskell bot 00:41:01 ah 00:41:07 however its flood protection has become buggy 00:41:34 and then we gave a command that dumps its entire karma database... 00:42:01 ? Elronnd 00:42:03 Elronnd desperately wants this entry to say something. 00:59:30 ? firefy 00:59:31 firefy? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 00:59:32 ? firefly 00:59:33 FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon. 00:59:49 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:59:52 -!- moonythedwarf has joined. 01:00:14 moo2 01:02:22 * FaerieFly throws an ultraball at moo2 01:02:55 lol 01:03:25 * moonythedwarf moo^3s 01:03:57 -giac moo="moo"; moo^3 01:03:58 Added 0 synonyms moo="moo",moo^3 // Time 0 // Total time 0 01:04:05 ... 01:04:16 * moonythedwarf facedesks 01:04:25 y u no err 01:04:35 -giac )( 01:04:36 Help file /usr/share/giac/doc/local/aide_cas not found Added 0 synonyms :1: syntax error, unexpected T_END_PAR line 1 col 1 at ) ")(" // Time 0 // Total time 0 01:05:44 * imode thinks he's going to specify his language in terms of term rewriting. 01:06:02 gonna be weird considering blocks are effectively infinite loops. 01:06:14 "what does an infinite loop evaluate to" is something I need to ask myself. 01:06:42 sounds like ~ATH 01:06:47 :) 01:07:38 ? aisis 01:07:39 aisis? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:07:44 ? aesis523 01:07:45 aesis523? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:08:13 -!- lambdabot has joined. 01:08:15 ivanm 1 01:08:19 Ix 1 01:08:21 -!- lambdabot has left. 01:08:25 lol. 01:08:27 Wat 01:08:33 did it just pick up where it left off? 01:08:34 wow lmbdabot is derping 01:08:34 ? theseus 01:08:35 theseus? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:09:12 so, if I have an infinite loop, [], I just say "well that's it. that's the final result." 01:09:25 -pyc print "lambdabot is derping" 01:09:25 ​lambdabot is derping | 01:09:35 if I have two infinite loops next to eachother, I only have one loop. 01:10:12 if I have an infinite loop nested in another infinite loop, I have one loop. 01:10:47 if I have [;], I yield nothing. if I have [[;]], I yield []. if I have [;][], I yield []. 01:10:49 huh, wont e very complete without a relative jump or a break statemet 01:11:02 ; is break. ? is conditional break. 01:11:04 le/rn theseus/Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect murder. He was represented by Protagoras and found not guilty. He changed his name to escape the publicity and has continued inventing to this day. 01:11:07 Learned 'theseus': Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect murder. He was represented by Protagoras and found not guilty. He changed his name to escape the publicity and has continued inventing to this day. 01:11:09 ah 01:11:15 makes sense 01:11:32 I already have the whole language spec'd out and can write programs in it, but I'm wanting to specify it without english. 01:11:37 so rewrite rules are reasonable. 01:11:42 what are some of the other commands? 01:12:21 the language has 32 commands, each of which are single characters. the whole command set is ?;[],'+-*/%&|~^()<>=!@${}.:#_\" 01:12:24 imode: Ω = (S I I (S I I)) 01:12:44 boily: Look at the new wisdom :D 01:12:58 the language is stack based. or, if you wanna get fancier, the language is concatenative. 01:13:13 imode, sounds neat 01:13:23 [] is equivalent to while(1){}. ; is equivalent to break;. ? is equivalent to if(stack[top] == 0) {break;} 01:13:24 if you implet it let me know 01:13:27 (wisdum? wisdumite? wisdomoid? wisdoid? How about wisdus? Yeah, wisdus is good) 01:13:42 heh, I will. I have a half-baked interpreter right now but it's very trivial to translate into C or Forth to get an actual result. 01:13:55 you can write an interpreter in a day. 01:13:59 probably an hour or two. 01:14:03 translation is also good :p 01:14:27 in fact, one moment while I translate factorial out to C (won't compile because I'm missing a header) 01:14:56 imode: Depends on what you're interpreting 01:14:59 * moonythedwarf has idea 01:15:01$ 01:15:42 https://ptpb.pw/HlQ1/c 01:15:57 it's a factorial function. the original code is ,:,1-[,:?,:,2#*,1#,1-]. 01:16:30 a loop based language that has a random access list of loops, the 'value' read is 1 if the loop+loop codr is running, slse zero, the commands beside loops are: ! ? and ; 01:16:51 http://pastebin.com/DejSL8dp 01:16:58 the reasonably commented version of the factorial function. 01:16:59 ! is set, ; is break, and ? is conditional 01:17:10 hppavilion[1]: it will be pdfed in the next pass. praise be the tanebventions! 01:17:46 boily: OK :D 01:17:52 rhe memory holds infinite amounts, and th language is theoretically turing complete 01:17:57 ? nav 01:17:58 nav? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:18:12 Is ?nav part of the topic, or did I add that on my end accidentally? 01:18:37 Ah, it was me 01:18:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | The intrapumpkin hub of esoteric pizza discussion and development | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah. 01:18:56 what's cool is that using these simple kinds of commands you can make things that look and behave like if-else statements. 01:19:47 +1 01:19:54 [condition] [,:?. true ,~;] [~? false ;] 01:20:09 if(condition) { true } else { false } 01:20:32 did it just pick up where it left off? <-- no, it's just that slow hth 01:20:53 oerjan: yeah, I noticed.. kind of hilarious. 01:22:45 * boily is off to count the karmic sheep 01:22:52 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FORCE CHICKEN). 01:23:10 the itymology of intrapumpkin is interpumpkin hth 01:23:24 and pizza is just out of place there 01:26:01 * moonythedwarf derps 01:28:21 -join #esoteric-blh 01:28:21 You do not have permission to use this command. 01:28:25 ... 01:28:39 oright 01:28:42 webchat 01:30:34 you misspelled it anyway :-p 01:30:55 :p 01:31:01 * :-P 01:31:18 -!- Zarutian has quit (Quit: Zarutian). 01:31:32 -!- moonythedwarf has quit (Quit: Page closed). 01:37:58 -!- moonythedwarf has joined. 01:38:21 -!- moonythedwarf has changed nick to Guest80529. 01:38:34 -!- Guest80529 has changed nick to moony. 01:38:53 -!- moony has quit (Changing host). 01:38:53 -!- moony has joined. 01:38:53 -!- moony has quit (Changing host). 01:38:53 -!- moony has joined. 01:41:13 So. Gen VI is the first gen without a third game (or equivalent) in it... 01:41:31 Game Freak implied they were doing something weird with it that time 'round. 01:41:43 I wonder if that "something weird" is a game in the next gen. 01:50:31 well, Emerald didn't follow Ruby and Sapphire chronologically 01:55:01 I can see why gen VI doesn't have a third game, though, the first two weren't very good :-( 01:55:47 wat? 01:56:02 gen 6 is alpha sapphire and omega ruby. 01:56:23 kind of. I guess. 01:56:50 I think the world forgot about X and Y. 02:00:15 like, the only thing XY do better than the previous games is dressing up (it also does this better than future games), and the multiple regional pokédexes thing 02:00:23 everything else is either the same or worse 02:01:41 it was just boring to me. 02:02:03 that's because the difficulty level is too low to make the battle interesting, and its plot is badly designed too 02:02:20 so you don't get much enjoyment from the story either 02:02:45 it wasn't the difficulty or the plot for me, it was the fact that there was just too much... walking. 02:02:59 well you get rollerskates fairly early 02:03:08 yeah but they continually compensate for that. 02:03:09 but you probably get the bicycle too late 02:03:23 like. after you get the rollerskates, everything just seems like it takes way too long. 02:03:46 and there's a lot of stuff that the game kinda wants you to do but you don't have to do. 02:03:50 it's partly because the game's very linear but nonetheless requires backtracking 02:03:51 like that stupid glamor shot thing. 02:03:58 or trainer video or something. 02:04:27 in the earlier Pokémon games, you had a lot of freedom of where to go after a bit; that means you spend much of your time exploring rather than running around 02:04:31 it took way too long to get from A to B. compare that to RSE where nearly every path was the same regardless of your mode of transportation. 02:04:32 and you have flexibility to choose a better route 02:04:58 in the later games (BW onwards, although DPP was starting to get that way) the routes are set 02:05:11 and the only choice is whether to skip or do optional dungeons 02:05:25 they're going with the "how long can we make this game" approach. 02:05:42 How DOES one viginere encrypt a message containing diacritics when the diacritics are not considered to produce distinct letters? 02:05:42 well, having a lot of gameplay is good, but having a lot of filler is bad 02:06:10 it was just filler... every location seemed to have a purpose in RSE and earlier games. 02:06:14 like, physical locations made sense. 02:06:19 but what the fuck is the reflection cave. 02:06:31 RSE has scorched slab 02:07:21 but it's completely insignificant and IIRC nothing makes you go there 02:07:32 yeah. 02:08:02 I think the 2D aspect of pokemon makes me like it. 02:08:10 everything's a bunch of tiles. 02:08:13 actually I think later games have cared too much about being visually interesting than interesting from an activity point of view 02:08:18 compare the gyms in RSE to those in XY 02:08:28 some of the RSE gyms are mindbenders. 02:08:41 XY's gyms are nearly always "go from place to place fighting trainers"; there's no real puzzle there, just pretty things to look at 02:08:46 played the fortree one on a trip. took me maybe 15 minutes. 02:09:01 whereas RSE's are all puzzles that would fit in puzzle collections; they're fairly easy by those standards but they definitely require thought to solve 02:10:08 actually I'm disappointed that the trick house isn't infinitely refreshing 02:10:11 plus, I'm not gonna lie, RSE and earlier were visually interesting because of their perspective. 02:10:17 even if it looped, rather than being procedurally generated, that'd be better 02:10:37 than the current "X puzzles then it stops" 02:10:56 I enjoyed XY, but it definitely was missing stuff. 02:11:16 I think they were focusing on the engine to the exclusion of the game. 02:11:33 another thing I dislike in XY is the art style 02:11:33 ORAS would indicate that, because it was definitely more fleshed out. 02:11:57 and yes, ORAS is clearly better than XY 02:12:29 And the director of that is doing SUMO, which is promising. 02:12:42 what exactly would you call that perspective for RGBYRSE. 02:12:57 like, the visual perspective. 02:13:33 The established name for it is three-quarters perspective. 02:13:36 it definitely has a name, I just can't remember what it is 02:13:36 I think it has "half" in it somewhere 02:13:45 3/4ths is somewhere close, but it's... 02:13:52 ah right, that makes sense 02:13:52 I got the wrong fraction 02:13:57 that's not exactly correct, though. 02:14:08 y and z are not bound to eachother. 02:14:29 trying to find a good example image. 02:14:55 the perspective in RSE maps y and z to the same onscreen axis, doesn't it? and z is the other 02:15:08 you would think, but no. 02:15:19 imagine the RSE maps as a heightmap. 02:15:27 hold on, posting an image. 02:15:32 The main weird thing with that perspective in games is that sprites don't match the perspective. 02:17:32 in gen 4 and particularly 5 it's even worse, because the world is 3d but the sprites are 2d 02:17:40 https://ptpb.pw/JPSE 02:17:46 that works in paper mario but not really in Pokémon 02:17:51 so, here's how mountains and stuff looks. 02:18:00 (note: this is my mockup.) 02:18:16 https://ptpb.pw/DnDR here's how the heightmap underneath of it looks. 02:18:26 -!- augur has joined. 02:18:43 imode: I don't see how that contradicts y and z being the same axis 02:18:43 so it's not 3/4ths. it's actually something weirder. 02:18:57 ais523: well, as you go higher, you don't.. go anywhere. 02:19:13 as you go higher vertically above the ground, you move upwards on the screen slightly 02:19:16 the same as if you went north 02:19:20 just by a different amount 02:19:33 no. 02:19:41 What I have been told is that they added chess clock recently in Pokemon game. 02:19:43 it wouldn't surprise me if the fraction wasn't exactly ¾, it doesn't have to be for that sort of perspective 02:20:13 it's not 3/4ths, because if that were the case, then going up and "out" would amplify eachother. 02:20:22 because y = y + z; 02:20:36 zzo38: the clock they used before was clearly ridiculous, it had a maximum time for each player's move (resetting each move) and a maximum time for the game altogether 02:20:41 also it counted animations in the latter time I think 02:20:56 so some people used shinies simply to add extra animations, because they thought a timeout would be good for their team 02:21:09 if you move "up" and "out" in this way, you're not adding your upward displacement to your outward displacement. 02:21:25 so it isn't 3/4ths. it's just a heightmap. 02:21:46 I wanted to make my own pokemon battle program; it has no animations so those can't take up time, regardless of how you configure the time controls 02:22:03 imode: they are being added, just they have opposite signs to what you're expecting 02:22:11 ais523: ...no, they aren't. 02:22:11 in that picture 02:22:15 nnnope. 02:22:19 however IIRC RSE's gives them teh same sign 02:22:30 it's not 3/4ths. golden sun is 3/4ths. 02:22:37 pokemon rse is just a heightmap. 02:22:46 same with rgby. 02:23:10 when you jump over a ledge in RBY 02:23:16 I'll tell you why: build a mountain in pokemon, build a mountain in golden sun. 02:23:23 in golden sun, if you stand behind the mountain, you can't see yourself. 02:23:30 if you stand behind a mountain pokemon, you can always see yourself. 02:23:43 this is only because you can't build one with a sufficiently high slope 02:23:44 height goes towards the screen instead of up. 02:23:55 err, sufficiently stepe 02:23:58 *steep 02:23:59 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 3020 34.559 nuke 02:23:59 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 0.449050979221787 02:24:01 such as... a heightmap. 02:24:09 -!- lambdabot has joined. 02:24:10 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 34.559 3020 nuke 02:24:10 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 4507.56409815405 02:24:11 Glasw -1 02:24:15 GM -1 02:24:17 go- -1 02:24:19 -!- lambdabot has left. 02:24:20 it's still going? 02:24:20 ah shit. 02:24:29 <\oren\> wtf 02:24:31 does it keep repeatedly trying to join? 02:24:44 and can't somebody restart it? 02:24:54 imode: shachaf's joining and parting it manually 02:24:57 in the hope that it's stopped 02:25:45 heh. 02:26:05 also I'd be surprised if you couldn't stand behind a cliff in the RSE engine; the problem is that the map design is designed to deny you opportunities 02:26:24 things that are high above the ground also tend to be far north; the game map is designed like that intentionally 02:26:29 again, you can build a mountain/pyramid. 02:26:48 it's just that if you do it in 3/4ths and stand behind it, you won't be able to see yourself. 02:26:49 ooh, I think I remembered a concrete example 02:26:52 because the pyramid will occlude you. 02:26:52 the slide in the secret base 02:26:57 you can stand behind that and be occluded 02:27:06 that's because it's on a different layer, just like bridges. 02:27:14 the game takes place on a 2D plane. 02:27:20 it's because the back of the slide is vertical rather than being sloped 02:27:30 and yes, it's a 2.5D engine 02:27:33 nnno, it's because it's on a different layer... 02:27:37 i.e. it uses layers in order to do the calculations 02:27:43 it's not a 2.5D engine. it's entirely tile based. 02:27:48 but the way the engine works doesn't affect the way the perspective works 02:27:56 ffs yes it does. 02:27:56 2.5D engines are tile based though 02:28:04 like, these are two different issues 02:28:16 a) how the engine internally represents the map, b) how it's drawn to the user 02:28:18 what don't you get about "it's a heightmap and y points towards the screen." 02:28:29 Can the chess clock in Pokemon game be applied grace time and/or increment time too, or not? 02:28:31 that's a statement about the game's internal representation of the map 02:28:32 and "it's not 3/4ths because they are fundamentally different transforms." 02:28:36 it's not a statement about how the map is drawn on the screen 02:28:42 oh my god. yes it is. 02:28:47 look at the images. compare the two. 02:28:51 zzo38: it's very unlikely to be customizable 02:29:04 that's how it maps from the datastructure to the end rendering. 02:29:25 imode: is this an actual example from the game? because AFAICT it contains mistakes 02:29:27 it is not 3/4ths. in fact, go ahead, download a RSE editor, pull it up, and try to occlude a character. 02:29:43 try to build like you would in something like 8bitmmo. 02:29:45 because you can't. 02:29:56 8bitmmo is 3/4ths. 02:29:59 It's a statement about the art style in use. In terms of the *rendering and data structure*, it's flat 2d, and to my knowledge it's carefully designed to not require a z axis at all. 02:30:05 you can implement 3/4ths perspective using a 2.5D (i.e. multiple layers of tiles) engine 02:30:15 ais523: It is why I have to make the new one, it can be fully customizable. 02:30:17 you can also implement it using a 3D engine 02:30:40 it is not. 3/4ths. in no way do you increase your Y coordinate as you go higher up in altitude. 02:30:42 zzo38: there are already fanmade Pokémon engines that may be easier to adjust than creating one from scratch 02:30:44 at all. 02:31:00 imode: you can go onto a higher layer, can't you? that's one way of modelling the Y coordinate when it matters 02:31:01 even in the art style. 02:31:17 just like the Z coordinate in older sonic games is implemented as a sequence of layers rather than an actual value 02:31:26 ais523: you can go onto a higher layer, but the layers are stacked on top of eachother facing towards the screen. 02:31:30 Several features of the existing ones I don't like so much though 02:31:33 there is no parallax. 02:31:34 so. 02:31:39 I'm arguing that the fact that you can be occluded behind the slide is proof that the art style is intended to look like ¾ 02:31:52 even though that's implemented by placing the slide on two layers 02:32:03 the things represented in pokemon are impossible in 3/4ths because of the fundamental difference when you transform the 3d coordinates to screen coordinates. 02:32:03 the only purpose for implementing it like that is so that the art will look correct 02:32:06 end of story. end of argument. 02:32:12 k. 02:32:21 if you wanna prove that wrong, construct a counter example. 02:32:33 I would do it the server in JavaScript and the client can be any telnet client (you need not download it), but you can also implement your own client using JSON 02:33:11 To avoid to include picture and sound effect therefore can save a lot of disk space too. 02:33:45 Rather than ones using specialized clients 02:35:01 imode: here are some pictures of terrain from actual gen 3: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Secret_Base#Layouts 02:35:18 o..kay? 02:35:20 on the south wall of a room, the top of the wall is occluding the bottom of the wall 02:35:41 thus, the art style is clearly not an overhead view, i.e. the y axis and z axis are both being represented via vertical movement onscreen 02:35:49 or the sprites would have been drawn symmetrically 02:36:07 compare that to the overworld mountain tiles. 02:36:18 however, the amount is very small 02:36:27 this is because the camera is "almost" overhead 02:36:36 also, those walls won't occlude the character. 02:36:44 thus in order for something to occlude something else to its north, the height difference must be very large 02:37:02 also, I'm going to say that this isn't a valid example because it's just a single level of depth. 02:37:20 -!- lambdabot has joined. 02:37:22 pike) -1 02:37:26 pkg_* -1 02:37:28 plans. -1 02:37:30 plans?<-- -1 02:37:32 -!- lambdabot has left. 02:37:37 lol 02:37:41 wonder how long that'll go on for. 02:37:44 imode: fwiw, my actual secret base in Gen 3 was full of puzzles in which I had traps occluded by other objects, so that you couldn't easily see them 02:37:59 It was unlikely to make much progress in 12 minutes. 02:38:00 i'm guessing the negatives are fewer than the positives 02:38:12 shachaf: i was just wondering how fast it went 02:38:18 at least, I think it was gen 3, might have been gen 4 02:38:28 ais523: I studied the way they developed the art style and made that mockup about two months ago. 02:38:35 i assume the great majority of karmas are +-1 02:38:45 down to the tiles. 02:38:47 your mockup is incorrect, though, it reverses the 3D y to 2D y mapping, and also has a few heightmap errors 02:38:52 Well, it took a long time to get to 1 02:38:59 But the negatives will probably be faster. 02:39:04 1. no, it's completely correct, I dare you to prove it wrong. 2. probably. 02:39:06 hm i guess haskell's comment syntax means -- may be more common than ++ 02:39:18 heightmap errors were kind of common. I was writing a renderer for it. 02:39:19 People also use -- as an mdash 02:39:21 emdash 02:39:24 but that's how it works. 02:39:34 if you want to prove me wrong, create an example RSE map. 02:39:41 where building "up" occludes the character. 02:40:17 When I told someone else that I wanted to make the text version of the pokemon battle, what someone suggeted is that it is good except for one pokemon species where they draw dots on your face depending on your personality value. What can be done though is that if you have that pokemon, then your opponent can see your personality value! 02:40:34 (It can just be displayed as text instead) 02:40:39 zzo38: I wanted to see if I could make a "net navi" for those with a pebble smartwatch. 02:40:48 imode: here, the trees are occluding the mountain: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Hoenn_Route_103_RS.png 02:40:50 if you've played MMBN. 02:41:18 the mountain itself confines to the grid because it's sloped at a 45 degree angle 02:41:25 ais523: if the trees are occluding the mountain, then why aren't they occluding eachother in the same image. 02:41:30 If data files from other Pokemon battle programs are compatible then it can be avoided to rewrite all of the data files at least, so it is not entirely to write by scratch. 02:41:30 they are 02:41:37 not on the left side. 02:41:38 * moony studies argument or 2.5D info 02:41:38 it's just hard to see because the top and bottom of the tree is the same colour 02:42:00 the trees on the left don't fill the whole square, just enough to block movement 02:42:03 ais523: Do you know if the existing data files are compatible so that same data file can be in use? 02:42:07 like, the base is towards the south 02:42:08 one second. 02:42:18 it's a trick that Game Freak commonly use in order to save on rendering costs 02:42:36 http://s124.photobucket.com/user/darkstewie69/media/My%20Region/StarterTown.png.html 02:42:41 zzo38: Veekun has an SQL database of all the data used by the Pokémon games 02:42:51 so why is this not consistent. 02:42:53 that's what most people use 02:43:08 RSE uses a tile-based heightmap in order to render everything. 02:43:34 here's a better image... 02:43:35 I'm pretty sure RSE stores the tiles in a "premultiplied" form 02:43:39 http://s1162.photobucket.com/user/AntiSpriteTheft/media/Hoenn_Route_122_RSE_zps3ce687bf.png.html 02:43:57 go "up" on this mountain. 02:44:00 you'll be heading towards the screen. 02:44:05 ais523: That might be useful. Which unofficial programs use it? 02:44:21 i.e. if you want to place something at a particluar place on the map, you add y+z and store the tile at that location in memory 02:44:26 uh. no. 02:44:27 but that's an implementation detail 02:44:31 that isn't how it works. 02:44:31 zzo38: Im not sure 02:44:38 imode: in your first picture the trees are occluding the lake 02:44:46 the first is fan-made. 02:44:48 second is in-game. 02:45:09 imode: look at the north side of the mountain 02:45:14 pokemon RSE internally represents its position as a traditional X and Y pair. 02:45:19 the higher layers are occluding the lower layers, because it's a 45° slope 02:45:32 imode: the engine internally doesn't use the z value except when layers are involved 02:45:35 but that's just an optimization 02:45:37 the higher layers aren't, actually. 02:45:41 the game works in camera coordinates 02:46:11 there is no Z coordinate in the game except for layering, which has no physical effect. 02:46:15 both sides of the mountain are sloped at 45° in that picture 02:46:29 in no way can you generate that picture using 3/4ths. 02:46:30 look, you're confusing the game's representation with the view that the game wants to show to the player 02:46:36 I am making a JavaScript time-controls library so afterward I will be able to use that. 02:46:39 imagine a game that uses an isometric perspective 02:46:44 you can store that as x, y, z coordinates 02:46:51 ais523: stop telling me what I'm confusing. 02:46:51 you can also store that as just x, y, and layer where two things cross 02:47:16 you can't use 3/4ths to generate that kind of a perspective. 02:47:22 this is the same with ¾ rather than isometric; the game internally uses an x, y, layer coordinate system 02:47:25 because you can't see _behind the objects_ wit h3/4ths. 02:47:33 you can't see behind objects there, either 02:47:37 uh, yeah, I can. 02:47:45 I can see the back side of the mountain while also seeing the front side. 02:47:55 OK, see the grass in front of the entrance? then look at the row of rock immediately above it 02:47:59 follow that round to the back of the mountain 02:48:02 you'll see that it disappears 02:48:02 http://opengameart.org/sites/default/files/images/TUTO_chap3_Ody.gif 02:48:07 here's what 3/4ths looks like. 02:48:11 because it's occluded by the mountain above it 02:48:30 in the gif you just posted, the wall is vertical, the house is vertical 02:48:37 they're good at occluding things behind them because they're vertical 02:48:41 so is the fucking mountain. 02:48:43 in the screenshot from Pokémon, however, the mountain is not vertical 02:48:51 it's a 45° slope 02:49:11 thus it's much less good at occluding things behind it because it's approximately a pyramid, rather than approximately a cube 02:49:14 I'm challenging you to construct that mountain using 3/4ths. 02:49:16 do it. 02:49:18 freakin' do it. 02:49:50 do you have a smaller example? that one's fairly large and it'd take ages 02:49:54 I know what 2.5D is, but I'm mystified by 0.75D 02:50:06 if you could, you wouln't be able to see the back of it because the front-facing parts would occlude the back ones. 02:50:22 let me draw the top few lines for you 02:50:28 also, it isn't really... that tough. 02:50:32 it'll take a while as it's a big mountain 02:50:49 probably around twice as big as you think it is because you're misinterpreting it :-P 02:51:24 ugh, the site keeps replacing the image with an advert when I unfocus it 02:51:27 let me take a screenshot of the image… 02:51:29 welcome to imgshack. 02:51:39 or photobucket. or whatever horrible image service. 02:52:05 also, here's something. 02:52:11 if I was going "up" from the back of the mountain. 02:52:23 I'd increase my Y coordinate, right. 02:52:29 because y = y + z; 02:52:36 that's how 3/4ths works. 02:52:45 well. in pokemon, that doesn't work. 02:52:51 you actually decrease your Y coordinate. 02:53:57 because your x and y coordinates remain unchanged according to your depth. it's like traversing a heightmap. the art style is designed like that so large objects won't occlude your view. 02:55:47 those kinds of slopes pop up a lot of places. 02:56:22 I'm busy working out the heightmap atm 02:56:29 it's taking ages because I keep miscounting all the occluded area 02:56:38 quite a lot is occluded on the north side 02:56:45 see above. 02:56:55 it may look like 3/4ths at a glance but it's actually not possible. 02:58:55 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:58:56 please give me time to do this! 02:59:08 but I just showed you it was impossible. :P 02:59:45 -!- lambdabot has joined. 02:59:45 you can say it's not all you like, that's how it behaves in game and that's how it was drawn. 02:59:47 of -2 02:59:51 on -2 02:59:53 -!- lambdabot has left. 03:00:23 I know; I did research and I was writing a renderer for heightmaps like this. 03:02:33 do you have a ¾ renderer so you can test the heightmap I'm giving you? 03:03:49 I had a 3/4ths voxel renderer at one point. 03:04:05 all that's left of it after morphing it into an isometric renderer is some screenshots. 03:04:18 Is lambdabot slowly dying? 03:04:30 it's dying from all the karma. 03:04:48 hppavilion[1]: no, it's slowly listing its entire karma database 03:05:08 so we keep it mostly out of the channel until it finishes 03:05:12 oerjan: 0.0 03:05:18 ais523: compare pokemon's perspective to ALttP's... you'll find that the same inconsistencies are abound. it's "kind of 3/4ths" but not really, and everything either gravitates towards or away from the center of the screen like a heightmap. 03:05:29 no, it's got down at least -2.0 hth 03:05:42 *down to 03:05:42 oerjan: ihy hth 03:05:50 yw 03:06:00 gfys 03:06:08 ggnr 03:06:25 /b h ss! 03:08:37 Hm... 03:09:02 I generalized numbers unconsciously the other day, and I want to know if there's anything like it yet 03:09:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:10:34 A single value V is a sequence of numbers (I use naturals, but you could use pretty much anything with the required operations and relations) [v_1, v_2, ..., v_k] 03:11:18 And then what? 03:11:26 zzo38: Trying to figure out how to explain 03:12:01 V > W if the length of V is greater than that of W. If they're the same length, then V is greater if its last value is more. If those are equal, V is greater if its second-to-last is more 03:12:05 Etc. 03:12:45 OK 03:13:08 I have thought of similar thing once but I also don't know if there is anything like it yet 03:13:24 I think of it sort of like a trophy case- somebody with 3 second places is better than someone with 2, but there is no number of second places that is better than a single first place (in theory) 03:13:40 (which is why I call it "cases" or "tropheries" for now) 03:14:03 OK 03:14:03 afaict, that's order isomorphic to ordinals < omega^omega 03:14:28 oerjan: Oh? 03:14:34 and what you are describing is basically their Cantor normal form 03:14:44 oerjan: Bearing in mind that the length and values must all be finite? 03:14:51 Yeah, it is, isn't it 03:14:53 Interesting 03:17:26 -!- lambdabot has joined. 03:18:05 huh, seems like it's finished 03:18:15 i guess there weren't many below -2, then 03:18:48 very well 03:18:52 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Good night). 03:20:06 -!- Nithogg has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 03:20:32 imode: http://sprunge.us/BjgM is a heightmap representation of the same mountain that's shown in ¾ in the screenshot you gave, from the north edge down to the northernmost edge of the visible beach 03:21:15 x is a square that's occluded; . is a square that is occluded but you can deduce that it's sea because if it were above sea level, it wouldn't be occluded 03:21:22 zzo38: I assume you came up with the same definition that addition of V and W (V+W) is equal to [v_1+w_1, v_2+2_2, ..., v_i+w_i, l_(i+1), (i+2), ..., l_(j-1), l_j] where i = min({len(v), len(w)}), l is the tail of the longer sequence starting at position i ([] if they're the same length), and j = #l? 03:21:52 note that in this perspective, the front of the mountain is directly vertical, which seems implausible; the game's perspective probably uses a different scaling factor between y and z than the one I assumed there 03:22:04 ("front" = south face, the one nearest the camera) 03:22:54 like, I put the camera at 45° from vertical in that heightmap but it's probably more like 22.5° in practice 03:23:11 hppavilion[1]: I think I did (although this was some time ago and I may have forgotten) 03:23:33 the point is, though, that any camera orientation, from vertical to almost horizontal, can produce a mountain of that shape; you basically just apply shear to the mountain 03:23:39 this is basic camera matrix stuff 03:23:45 and shouldn't need proving 03:27:19 -!- Nithogg has joined. 03:27:20 -!- navet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:28:22 And defining n*V for a case V (item-type p), allowing cases with element-types being a member q of Q (p \subseqin Q) (so usually q \in {|N, |Z, |Q, |R}. At weirdest, |S), and a value n (of type t) where (*) :: p -> t -> (\elem Q) 03:28:47 ais523: for the last time. read above. 03:28:59 it's impossible and you're wrong because it's a different projection. 03:29:01 imode: you asked for proof, that's proof 03:29:10 I can't even parse that. 03:29:37 I was assuming you were drawing something. but it doesn't even matter because the fundamental proof is whether or not scaling the back slope can set you higher on your screen. 03:29:43 it can't. it remains unaffected. 03:29:52 n*V = ⦗n*v_1, n*v_2, ..., n*v_k⦘ with k = #V 03:30:06 x is occluded, . is occluded but necessarily at height 1, other values are heightmap 03:30:15 i.e. my drawing is the same mountain seen from directly above rather than at ¾ perspective 03:30:16 ais523: imode: Is an argument about to start? 03:30:16 if you scaled the back slope of that mountain and ended up with a higher y screen coordinate, it's 3/4ths. 03:30:19 but we can't see all of it 03:30:20 other than that, it's not. 03:30:21 hppavilion[1]: it started ages ago 03:30:25 so, you're wrong. end of argument. 03:30:34 ais523: I never noticed. 03:30:37 imode: what's your definition of "scaled" here? 03:30:44 if you start at a location adjacent to the bottom of the back slope of the mountain 03:30:46 and move upwards 03:30:50 yup. 03:30:54 on the mountain 03:30:56 you will move up the screen 03:30:58 you will end up with a lower Y coordinate on the screen. 03:31:01 imode: ais523: Would you like an impartial third party? Because I can probably find someone 03:31:07 hppavilion[1]: no, this is just stupid. 03:31:10 imode: look at the picture 03:31:15 specifically, the second layer up on the mountain 03:31:17 follow it round 03:31:21 this is the last time I'm going to say this. 03:31:21 it disappears, right? 03:31:27 this is because it's lower on the screen than the third layer is 03:31:34 and thus the third layer covers it up 03:31:49 in this projection, if you scale a pyramid shaped structure from the back of the structure (i.e further away from the camera), two things happen in two different projections. 03:32:00 in 3/4ths, your screen Y coordinate increases. 03:32:04 besides, here's an alternative proof you're wrong: every render that can be generated by a heightmap, can also be generated by a ¾ perspective (starting from a different object) 03:32:10 in pokemon's projection, your screen Y coordinate decreases. 03:32:17 end of discussion. 03:32:23 please define "scale", it's ambiguous and I don't know what definition you're using 03:32:33 "go up the mountain". 03:32:34 anyway, your screen Y coordinate /increases/ in Pokémon's projection 03:32:40 it. does. not. 03:32:41 when you go up the north face of the mountain 03:32:55 imode: if it decreased, then you would be able to see the entire back face of the mountain 03:32:58 you can't 03:33:09 yes.. you.. can. 03:33:11 Oh, is this argument about how Pokemon works? xD 03:33:13 done with this discussion. 03:33:31 I don't have time to infinitely loop over an explanation you are clearly not getting. 03:33:38 what I need to do is cook dinner. 03:35:08 imode: the easiest way to see this is to look at the beach; it's visible on the left, bottom, and right side of the mountains, but it is /not/ visible on the top, and the reason is because it has a lower rendered-y coordinate than the back of the mountain because it is lower on the screen; if being higher on the screen always gave a higher rendered-y coordinate, you would be able to see the beach 03:35:17 ais523: Please, stop 03:36:09 OK; I'm just annoyed because imode asked a question, refused to believe my answer, asked for proof, then when I spent like half an hour providing proof refused to look at it on the basis that it couldn't exist 03:36:58 ais523: I know that that's frustrating, but from imode's perspective you probably weren't giving a very good proof 03:37:14 you think you're annoyed, try "I wrote a renderer and drew mockups and understand how this thing works" while showing inconsistencies and you're just not accepting it because you can't listen to me for a split second. 03:37:24 drop your assumptions about how you think this piece of shit works and actually listen. 03:37:39 look, you're moving the goalposts every time I try to respond to what you're saying 03:37:57 any more of this and I'm putting you on ignore. I'm sure you're a wonderful person otherwise but you're infuriating me. 03:37:58 what I will concede is that in Pokémon, it's impossible to move to a location that's occluded by more than one tile 03:38:16 and this is dragging out too long. 03:38:33 ais523: imode probably isn't trying to move the goalposts; e knows what e means, e just didn't express it in a way you understood. 03:38:52 what you're saying is that it's /impossible/ the perspective is ¾; what I'm saying is that it's not only possible, but also likely; however the way perspective works it will never be possible to prove 03:39:15 because all renderings that can be produced in ¾ perspective can also be produced by an overhead camera (starting from a differently shaped object) 03:39:54 Either you two are using different sets of axioms, the definitions are different, or this is one of those weird areas of math that has something bizarre like how in Modal Logic, the statement "it is possible that p is necessary" implies "p is true" 03:40:05 I'm also saying that the reason you're confused is that there are some small parts of the game which are clearly in ¾ perspective; you believe the rest of the game isn't, so you believe the game is inconsistent 03:40:09 in 3/4ths, here's what your screen projection looks like. x = x; y = y + z; in pokemon's perspective, here's what your projection looks like: x = x; y = y;. z is discarded because it's an overhead view. they are different perspectives. 03:40:19 and that's it. that's all. I'm not listening to you because you never listened to me. 03:40:22 so, /ignored. 03:40:33 whereas I believe the game consistently uses ¾ perspective, and typically makes occluded tiles impassable in order to prevent you navigating "in the dark" 03:40:43 Ignoring each other for the time being seems like the best way to resolve this 03:40:57 ais523: e has you on ignore. You can stop now. 03:41:05 I'm just really disappointed because of people being so aggressively wrong 03:41:29 ais523: imode is probably thinking the exact same thing about you right now. 03:42:22 btw, the source of the disagreement is that I agree that ¾ perspective uses the formula "rendered-x = world-x; rendered-y = world-y + world-z"; I disagree with imode's assertion that Pokémon uses the formula "rendered-x = world-x; rendered-y = world-y" 03:42:40 and imode was ignoring any evidence that I could provide for the latter disagreement 03:42:46 ais523: Just don't tell me about the argument so I don't wind up taking sides 03:42:58 but confusing the issue is the fact that Pokémon calculates using rendered-x/y internally rather than world-x/y 03:43:32 hppavilion[1]: right, I shouldn't drag you into it because as you don't care what the answer is, it's unimportant that yo know 03:44:41 Yes 03:44:53 the whole thing started because imode asked what the answer was, pikhq and I told them, then they refused to accept it 03:45:30 that's normally, especially in a channel like this one, an invitation to have your misconceptions corrected (because presumably you want to be educated because you care about the answer), but apparently not in this case 03:45:58 ais523: I'm getting a feeling the argument might have been about different mindsets; one of you was going for mathematical perfection and the other for a high-accuracy approximation 03:46:49 ais523: for the record, I didn't ignore you because I thought you would stop, but thanks. again, the conversation devolves from a discussion about the way things actually work to trying to piss on eachother's keyboards. 03:47:10 Maybe it depends what Pokemon game? Maybe the different generation might work differently 03:47:27 zzo38: it works differently from Platinum onwards, although the game's view looks much the same 03:47:32 you don't understand how this works. and instead of saying "wow that's how it works?" you'll try to make up any bullshit in order to "prove" you "understood it". 03:47:36 Dammit, imode. 03:47:45 this is so stupid. it's a god damn pokemon game. 03:48:04 zzo38: Pokémon Red through Pearl use ¾ projection but the game stores the rendered version as the map internally; Pokémon Platinum onwards also use ¾ onwards but store the map in world coordinates, not rendered coordinates 03:48:05 ais523: imode: Please, you two, just put each other on ignore for the time being. It's for the best. 03:48:20 *also use ¾ projection 03:48:22 yeah, how about we both shut up. 03:48:34 well I'm going to answer questions about this when other people ask them! 03:48:42 and continue to be wrong. 03:49:08 imode: Not both shut up, ignore each other so you lose interest in talking about this topic and the argument dies 03:49:36 * imode pulls up a random article from hackernews. 03:49:42 actually, here's a really good direct proof it's ¾ in gen 2: look at radio tower here: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/File:Goldenrod_City_GS.png 03:49:59 now I'll stop talking about it because I suspect if that isn't convincing, nothing will be 03:50:14 ais523: Did you really have to do that? 03:50:16 Really? 03:50:29 like, it sums up the argument in one sentence, so it's a good place to stop 03:50:50 you ignored mine, so I'm ignoring your's. 03:50:54 it just took me this long to think of it 03:51:11 (also I didn't /ignore/ your arguments; I /disagreed/ with them, and pointed out the bit I disagreed with) 03:51:22 if I'd ignored your arguments I'd have said a lot less! 03:51:22 you really want me to dissect that image so this bullshit can go on longer. 03:51:28 just shut. up. and I'll shut up. 03:51:36 no, I just want you to look at it and see if it makes any sense with your worldview 03:51:55 ais523: Yes, but if you look at it externally, it's pretty clear you're just getting the last word. You very well may be getting the *right* last word, but you're still just continuing this awful, awful debate 03:51:59 but if you're not going to do that, that's fine too, I can understand if you decided that your question isn't worth this much bothering about 03:52:00 gen2's art style isn't rse's, and I can't believe I'm saying that in a serious conversation. 03:52:15 I didn't ask you a fucking question condescending shit. 03:52:24 you did, let me quote it 03:53:19 what exactly would you call that perspective for RGBYRSE. like, the visual perspective. it definitely has a name, I just can't remember what it is I think it has "half" in it somewhere The established name for it is three-quarters perspective. 03:53:30 in all this crap I forgot the original line. 03:53:32 that's sad. 03:53:40 then I've been spending all that time trying to clarify the answer because you disagreed with it 03:53:46 you're right, I did ask you what the name might be. 03:54:01 disagreeing is fine, typically; we analyse each other's arguments to see where the disconnect is 03:54:03 and then further clarified that it's not 3/4ths. 03:54:05 and eventually one person changes their mind 03:54:19 which is precisely why I was asking the question. 03:54:27 because if it wasn't 3/4ths then what the hell was it. 03:54:36 god damn I'll never casually ask anything again. 03:54:47 my position is that gens 1, 2, 3, and the start of 4 use the same perspective; you disagree with that, so I've been trying to figure out where the disconnect is 03:54:48 I say this as a friend: I honestly think it's time for both of you to turn off the computer and go for walk 03:54:55 at 4am? 03:54:59 not safe to walk at that time 03:55:02 not e- yeah. 03:55:09 plus it's raining. 03:55:22 ais523: Then go to sleep. Or listening to some music. Or read a good book. 03:55:35 I mean, I was doing other things 03:55:41 just I got pulled into the channel to try to help explain this 03:55:45 but there's not much point at this point 03:56:01 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:56:11 now he has the right idea. 03:56:12 -!- imode has left. 04:03:45 ugh, for anyone lurking or logreading this, I'd like to say that I'm very upset by this, and explain why 04:04:09 -!- 17SAAF3NW has joined. 04:04:10 -!- 7GHAALOJK has joined. 04:04:23 one of the main reasons I come here, other than talking about esoprogramming, it's that it's a channel with the sort of friendly atmosphere in which you can ask a quesiton, and often get an answer if someone happens to know it 04:04:51 typically without the motivations being questioned (as they're often ridiculous), unless they happen to be relevant 04:04:59 I value that a lot, and have made use of it in the past 04:05:12 and I try to give back by helping people out with things they might be struggling with 04:05:33 typically it's programming, but the projection used by Pokémon games counts too, I guess 04:05:56 when there's a disagreement, then we tend to go more in depth in order to find out what the answer is, and that's what I was trying to do there 04:06:22 there were other things I wanted to be doing, but it seemed like it was worth going through the effort so that someone else would do it for me 04:06:54 and seeing all that be abused makes me very upset; it's like the more detail I went into, the harder things became rather than easier 04:07:06 *nod* 04:07:13 because everything I said was being pushed back against, with questions for more proof and the like 04:08:19 especially because I used to work as a teacher, if someone isn't understanding something, I feel like it's me who's at fault for not explaining it correctly 04:08:49 so I wanted to try to resolve the situation, and now that I haven't, I feel like I've failed 04:10:18 anyway, I hope people won't be any less inclined to answer my questions, or to ask questions of their own, as a result; the conversations can often be really interesting, and typically everyone comes out having learned something 04:11:15 I guess that's all I want to say 04:11:18 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:11:48 well put 04:12:10 thanks for delurking 04:12:10 -!- augur has joined. 04:12:20 I feel a bit better now 04:14:08 still haven't had many ideas for my hello world though… 04:16:39 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:16:45 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:23:49 -!- augur_ has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 04:24:50 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 47.47 5018 nuke 04:24:50 <\oren\> ☃ Δv = 5901.1484425243 04:45:17 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 04:51:27 Hm, so how DO ordinals generalize beyond the "case system" I was thinking about earlier? 04:51:37 I assume it's probably that you allow cases to nest indefinitely deep? 05:01:47 hppavilion[1]: Which case system? 05:02:16 Cale: A generalization of numbers I thought up that I called "cases" by an analogy to a trophy case 05:03:09 Cale: It uses the metaphor that a team that has won 2 third-place awards is better than a team that has won 1, but a team that has won 3 would be better 05:03:18 4 would be better than the team that won 3, 5 better than 4, etc. 05:04:02 But there is no number of third-place wins that would, on their own, put you better than a team with only one second-place win 05:04:18 But a team with 2 second-place wins is better that that team, and a team with 3 better than them, etc. 05:04:35 But no number of second-place wins is better than even one first-place 05:05:12 -!- navet has joined. 05:08:23 Cale: So you create a generalization of numbers in the form of a finite sequence of natural numbers C = [C_1, C_2, ..., C_(k_C)] 05:08:36 Where C > D if len(C) > len(D) 05:08:58 And C > D if C's last element is greater than D's last element 05:09:07 s/And/else/ 05:09:34 else C > D if C' > D', where C' is C with its last value truncated and D' is D with its last value truncated 05:09:52 So yeah, that seems like a well-ordering to me: for any nonempty set of such things, it will have a least element 05:09:52 Cale: So... that 05:10:29 So it'll be order isomorphic to some particular ordinal. 05:10:34 Cale: Well... yeah 05:10:52 No matter which ordinal that happens to be, it will have a successor :) 05:10:53 Cale: Yes, and apparently this is isomorphic to the ordinals < omega^omega 05:11:53 Developed completely on my own while watching the Yogscast :D 05:12:06 (then forgotten about, then dredged back up later) 05:13:19 Cale: The next logical step was addition; V+W is done by expanding the shorter one by right-padding it with zeros to have the same length as the longer one, then simply performing element-wise addition 05:14:13 So [1, 2, 3]+[2, 3, 5, 7, 11] = [1, 2, 3, 0, 0]+[2, 3, 5, 7, 11] = [1+2, 2+3, 3+5, 7+0, 11+0] = [3, 5, 8, 7, 11] 05:14:16 Sure, or you can simply think of these things as sequences which are eventually 0 05:14:31 one would hope that an ordinal notation can at least handle ordinals < eps_0 twh 05:14:46 Cale: Well, yes, that's the mathematical version, but I was computer-implementing them :P 05:15:00 shachaf: What's at eps_0 twh? 05:15:27 @google cantor normal form 05:15:28 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordinal_arithmetic 05:15:44 well, those things 05:16:04 Cale: So, V+n (for some Case V and some scalar n) was easily equal to V+[n] 05:17:04 If polynomials are free ring expressions (are they?), what are CNF ordinals? 05:17:19 Er, that's Cantor, not Conjunctive. 05:17:29 So then, it was simple to figure that, as long as I'm extending numbers, there's no reason to constrain the /elements/ to natural numbers; I can allow the elements themselves to be Cases 05:17:33 hppavilion[1]: Note that there's an interesting involution on these things 05:18:01 er, sorry, I was thinking of something else :) 05:18:19 If we were to insist that the elements of the sequences were descending... 05:18:40 Cale: Ah, treating it as reverse? 05:19:01 So instead of the second element being infinity, the second element is infinitesimal? 05:19:03 Oh, sure, you could reverse them. 05:19:17 But I was thinking of a transpose operation that doesn't quite work out 05:19:23 Oh 05:19:37 (well, you can do something like Haskell's transpose which squishes things together) 05:20:23 I also figured that nV for scalar n and case V is easily [n*V_1, n*V_2, ..., n*V_k] for k = #V 05:20:23 > transpose . transpose $[[1,1,1,1], [1,1], [], [1,1,1]] 05:20:25 [[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1]] 05:21:17 I'm stuck on VW for cases V and W, but it might turn out like matrices 05:21:18 @let tr = map sum . transpose . map (flip replicate 1) 05:21:21 Defined. 05:21:29 > tr [4,2,0,3] 05:21:33 [3,3,2,1] 05:22:09 (not quite an involution like this, but it's sort of a closure operator) 05:22:38 (Though, wait, I could stick to the definition for nV and wind up with V = [1, 2], W = [3, 4, 5], VW = [3[1, 2], 4[1, 2], 5[1, 2]] = [[3, 6], [4, 8], [5, 10]]) 05:23:12 Cale: But, wait, you CAN do ordinals like this descending, correct? 05:24:06 descending? 05:24:52 hppavilion[1]: You can think of any ordinal as being the set of all ordinals strictly less than it (von Neumann's definition of ordinals does this) 05:25:03 Cale: Yes, you can 05:25:28 Oh, are you talking about my descending sequences? 05:25:33 Cale: I mean, if you were to take my Case notation and, instead of having a lowest level and higher levels that take precedence, you have a highest level and lower levels that break ties 05:25:37 Cale: Maybe, I'm not sure 05:25:52 oh 05:25:59 The ordering on ordinals isn't dense 05:26:11 Cale: I didn't think it was? 05:26:19 Well, if you can always break ties... 05:26:41 Wait, [3, 4, 5][1, 2] = [1[3, 4, 5], 2[3, 4, 5] = [[3, 4, 5], [6, 8, 10] dammit. Non-commutative, which is sad. 05:27:04 Cale: Well, no, if it's the same on every level then there's a tie and they're equal 05:27:19 Like, if it's the first element of the sequence which is most significant, and you're just taking the lexicographic ordering 05:27:29 Cale: Yes, I believe so 05:27:39 then that's dense, in the sense that for any two sequences you'll be able to find one which is in between them 05:27:46 It won't be well-ordered 05:28:55 e.g. {[1],[0,1],[0,0,1],[0,0,0,1],...} will be an infinite descending sequence having no least element 05:29:07 Cale: In the Cases, taking [a, b, c] > [d, e, f] means that you take c > f. If c > f, then [a, b, c] > [d, e, f]; if c < f, then [a, b, c] !> [d, e, f]; if c = f, then you take b > e and repeat 05:29:19 And you can extend the last element indefinitely 05:29:46 Cale: I didn't need well-order; it's not about ordinals, it's about infinitesimals 05:29:53 Yeah, it's the other way around which gives you ordinals 05:30:01 Cale: Exactly 05:30:44 And once you have that, there's no reason you can't glue it together into ([infinite], finite, [infinitesimal]) 05:31:23 the tricky part is how to multiply 05:32:06 You might hope to get a field which incorporates various infinitesimals and infinities 05:33:44 I would. 05:33:49 (or maybe a semiring, in your case) 05:34:07 (we haven't been dealing with negative numbers or fractions anywhere) 05:36:29 -!- otherbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:38:08 Cale: what do you think of the kuratowski closure axioms twh 05:39:13 ? twh 05:39:18 twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand. 05:40:23 They're good 05:42:08 It's like cl is a monad which is also a union monoid homomorphism. :) 05:42:40 How can you generalize that last bit? 05:43:50 Perhaps it's a monoidal functor, but I'm not immediately sure whether (empty set, union) gives a monoidal category structure on the powerset with inclusions... I'd like to think it does 05:44:37 ah, yeah, sure it does 05:56:16 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Me4502 * New user account 05:56:58 -!- godel has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 06:06:33 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50062&oldid=50033 * Me4502 * (+183) 06:06:37 [wiki] [[Wutlang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50063 * Me4502 * (+1896) Created page with "{{Stub}} '''Wutlang''', or '''Wut''' is an esoteric language inspired by [[Brainfuck]], created by Matthew Miller (Me4502) in 2016. Whilst the syntax is similar, there are no..." 06:08:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:09:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:11:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood). 06:12:26 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:26:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:38:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 06:40:34 proposal: make a wiki plugin that changes the category labels from "brainfuck derivate" to "boring" 06:41:15 So... epsilon_0 is equal to omega^omega^omega^omega^...? 06:45:55 is epsilon to omega what infinity is to 8? 06:47:13 myname: No. 06:47:34 Huh, as it turns out, my form treats arbitrary nesting as the same. Apparently. 06:48:01 i'm not sure what you are doing, but it sounds broken 06:48:14 myname: Ordinal numbers, as it turns out 06:48:33 [0, 0, 0, ..., 1] with n 0s is omega^n. [0, 0, 0, ..., k] with n 0s is k*omega^n 06:48:43 myname: i wrote a brainfuck derivative where < and > are reversed 06:48:54 derivate 06:49:15 izalove: so it's brainfuck if your tape is infinitely long in both directions. 06:49:16 So, from that, I found that [0, [0, 1]] = omega*omega = omega^2 = [0, 0, 1] 06:49:32 myname: nah only on the left hand side 06:49:51 izalove: that's a TBS 06:50:25 TotalBrainfuck'Slookalike 06:50:29 izalove: but well, it still qualifies for boring. more than other derivates even 06:51:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:51:23 Hm, I suppose if I introduced a {} notation... 06:51:28 -!- ais523 has joined. 06:51:59 [A{k}, B] = [A, A, A, ..., b] with k As 06:52:22 Then [0{[0, 1]}, 1] is epsilon null 06:53:06 epsilon_0 is the least fixed point of (omega ^) 06:53:38 shachaf: That too? 06:53:45 Too? 07:04:20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smarties americans don't have smarties 07:04:31 you people disgust me 07:05:32 I don't know whether they're sold around here in general, but the name is certainly associated with a candy in my head. 07:06:10 it's another candy! 07:06:25 Oh, but maybe I'm thinking of a different candy. I don't know. 07:06:37 http://www.smarties.com/ this shit 07:07:00 They look very similar. 07:07:18 not. at. all. 07:07:35 In 1998, Nestle obtained a trademark for a tubular Smarties package. It later sued Master Foods in Denmark, which was marketing M&M minis in a similar package. The Supreme Court of Denmark ruled that a basic geometrical shape could not be trademarked and ordered the trademark to be removed from the trademark register.[7] 07:11:18 also "you people disgust me" seems a little strong tdnh 07:11:34 no mercy 07:11:40 the people haven't even heard the gospel 07:11:58 also i was reading a bunch of chick tracts recently 07:14:16 what's a good way to find which people are in both #foo and #bar ? 07:14:53 my current approach is to use /names twice and then copy it in vim, then :%s/ /\r/g and then :%! sort | uniq -d 07:15:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:15:39 I've done that exact thing before. :-( 07:15:43 It's awful. 07:18:26 Cale: A union is just a pushout, right? 07:19:30 Can the union axiom be expressed in those terms? 07:19:45 I guess it's not a pushout when you're talking about the poset category of inclusions. 07:21:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 07:23:07 shachaf: fuck you, you made me google chick tracts and the guy's dead and i'm sad now 07:23:36 he's with the lord hth 07:23:47 yes that's what the website says 07:24:31 which incidentally are they even allowed to say 07:27:52 -!- centrinia has joined. 07:31:03 -!- augur has joined. 07:33:24 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:35:44 shachaf: Why wouldn't they be? 07:36:25 Similar to the other sort of Smarties? I guess only one is chocolate-filled. 07:36:32 on the subject of weird happenings with my computer: if I'm charging the router's battery from the USB port adjacent to the headphone port, and am using headphones 07:36:43 I can hear Internet connections 07:36:52 a sort of buzzing when the computer is downloading (possibly also uploading) data 07:37:35 this "jesus died" thing is such a scam 07:38:42 hmm, is this why smarties are sold in a hexagonal-prism tube nowadays rather than a cylinder? 07:38:43 ais523: I smell that if you do enough LSD, you can smell sound 07:39:04 although that could also be to make them pack better, or to make them easier to manufacture 07:39:36 Or Ecstasy. Ecstasy is the big one. 07:40:14 I'm not sure inducing synaesthesia between senses I already have is useful 07:40:25 and am especially unwilling to use illegal drugs for such a minor purpose 07:40:37 (meanwhile, the advantage of the bandwidth-to-sound conversion is that it gives me a sense I wouldn't otherwise have) 07:41:00 What's the disadvantage of illegal drugs? 07:42:40 shachaf: They're illegal 07:42:56 And they're illegal because of all the disadvantages 07:43:00 Such as that they're illegal 07:43:09 Et cetera. 07:45:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:45:59 -!- ais523 has joined. 08:04:08 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:04:41 -!- augur has joined. 08:07:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:09:28 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:30:47 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:57:22 -!- MoALTz has joined. 09:01:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:08:13 github's halloween theme is nice 09:12:18 I must be missing something - I didn't see anything halloweeny (or different at all from normal) there. 10:03:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:04:33 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:11:44 -!- Jafet has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:23:04 what's a good way to find which people are in both #foo and #bar ? ← write a client-side script for your favourite IRC client to print the intersection? 10:23:16 but who has the time 10:23:20 (I've asked myself the same thing in the past, but haven't bothered with it yet) 10:34:24 -!- boily has joined. 10:39:40 wisdom 10:39:49 orodruin//The Orodruin is a mountain heated by earth spirits. Sauron moved to Mordor because boiling water for his morning tea with the fires of the Orodruin was so convenient. 10:40:10 -!- Jafet has joined. 10:40:43 sounds reasonable 10:46:35  sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/orodruin 10:46:43 wisdom/orodruin//The Orodruin is a mountain heated by earth spirits. Sauron moved to Mordor because boiling water for his morning tea with the fires of the Orodruin was so convenient. 10:47:27 @tell oerjan hellørjan. you really did special case sed -i. bleh! flblblblblbl! :Þ 10:47:30 Consider it noted. 10:59:51 [wiki] [[User:YSomebody]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50064&oldid=50022 * YSomebody * (+448) 11:10:16 -!- hydraz has changed nick to SIGINT. 11:12:51 -!- SIGINT has changed nick to amused. 11:13:16 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 11:26:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: APPEAL CHICKEN). 11:36:52 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:39:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:43:59 @karma 00:22:23 11:44:02 00:22:23 has a karma of -1 12:02:02 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:02:49 -!- navet has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:20:34 [wiki] [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50065&oldid=45900 * TuxCrafting * (+4377) o_O 12:26:16 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Somebody1234 * New user account 12:33:48 [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50066&oldid=50062 * Somebody1234 * (+246) This is the intro page right? 12:34:02 [wiki] [[Seed]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50067&oldid=50065 * Somebody1234 * (-116) Remove tags made obsolete by feersum's answer 12:40:13 8-ball 12:40:15 Concentrate and ask again. 12:58:27 wisdom 12:58:29 terminal symbol//A terminal symbol is a terminal condition that makes your parser die eventually. Consult your linguist for medical advice. 12:58:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:13:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:17:32  cat bin/sed 13:17:33 ​#!/bin/bash \ /bin/sed "$@" && if [[ $# == "3" && "/$1" == "/-i" ]]; then echo -n "$3//"; cat "$3"; fi 13:17:37 heh 13:32:05 almost 3h20m worth of karma... ugh. 14:03:55 -!- amused has changed nick to hydraz. 14:06:46 ? 7 14:06:49 7? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 14:08:21 -!- navet has joined. 14:24:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 14:26:15 ? water 14:26:17 Water is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can suddenly fall from the heavens. 14:27:30 wob_jonas: what is the wob? 14:27:40 also bonjonas 14:28:19 hello, alercah. the wob is because I'm using a wob-based irc client (kiwiirc.com) for this conenction, plus it ends in a b which is in my normal nick 14:28:32 ? porthello 14:28:33 Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some thé or caffè and a fternooner. 14:34:19 -!- oniifiv has quit (Quit: Who turned this off?! D:<). 14:39:33 <\oren\> bing has a nice haloween theme today 14:43:06 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqvsNz2QMbI 14:46:09 <\oren\> also, the usa government is on the brink of capitulating to the U.S. cat population as usual 14:47:31 <\oren\> all hail the glorious Imperium Felium! 14:47:42 I like our Halloween Doodle game. 14:52:54 <\oren\> cute kitty 14:59:45 ? fizzie 14:59:47 fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg 15:00:14 . o O ( They have recently switched to the non-evil side. ) 15:13:40 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 15:19:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:24:10 learn A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. 15:24:13 Learned 'galaxy': A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. 15:45:25 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:02:42 -!- navet has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:24:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:29:20 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:42:09 -!- newsham has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:46:05 -!- newsham has joined. 17:05:58 olist 1057 17:05:59 olist 1057: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 17:08:31 ooh! 17:08:32 let me look 17:12:34 also stuff in news 17:29:24 A lot of people call the world map in a video game the "overworld". Is this because of the Legend of Zelda game? 17:31:40 might be by contrast with dungeons? 17:34:18 -!- otherbot has joined. 17:35:42 the latest abstruse goose is pretty awesome 17:36:14 no way. that comic is dead, isn't it? 17:52:33 http://i.imgur.com/4VxsfTG.png goto soSueMe; 17:53:18 -!- augur has joined. 17:55:53 -!- moony_the_lycan has joined. 17:55:55 moo2 17:55:59 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:41 -!- augur has joined. 17:58:03 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 17:59:27 hellovilion[1] :) 17:59:54 ^ wb hppavilion[1] :p 18:00:07 helloony 18:00:49 sort moony 18:00:50 sort: open failed: moony: No such file or directory 18:01:10  echo "moony" | sort 18:01:11 moony 18:01:18 ? 18:01:30 it should be mnooy 18:01:37 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:03:41  printf "m\no\no\nn\y\n" 18:03:42 m \ o \ o \ n\y 18:03:46  printf "m\no\no\nn\y\n" | sort 18:03:47 m \ n\y \ o \ o 18:03:56  printf "m\no\no\nn\ny\n" | sort 18:03:57 m \ n \ o \ o \ y 18:06:59 -!- augur has joined. 18:07:12 wb augur 18:07:21 wob_jonas: i think it's dead in the same way pbf is. namely, it updates irregularly spread out over very long spans of time 18:07:26 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com). 18:08:08 quintopia: maybe... 18:08:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 18:08:26 but I think it's more dead than Everyday Heroes 18:08:32 praps 18:08:37 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: News: esolang contest at http://calesyta.xyz/en/ | Currently dressed up as a channel for practical use. Scary! | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive bot testing, use #esoteric-blah. 18:12:24 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:18:34 -!- copumpkin has joined. 18:29:09 -!- jeffl35 has quit (Excess Flood). 18:29:38 -!- jeffl35 has joined. 18:29:41 -!- Zarutian has joined. 18:31:52 -!- DHeadshot has joined. 18:43:05 The tricky part with vegetables is that many of them have two names in Hungarian, and you have to learn both of the names to make sense of menus, recipes, or price signs in shops or markets. Specifically, krumpli = burgonya; zöldborsó = cukorborsó, fehérretek = jégcsapretek, pirosretek = vajretek (IIRC, it's confusing because there's also sörretek) 18:43:05 , spenót = paraj. 18:43:43 Food names are tricky. 18:47:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:51:01 Since as a kid you only learn one of the names from your family, learning the rest is sort of a rite of passage during growing up. 18:51:13 whyy 18:51:26 this is kind of true in english also 18:52:01 well there's meat 18:52:46 I heard one explanation for the naming of meat being that the peasants called animals by their germanic names and the nobles by their romantic ones, and the differentiation by animal vs meat came about because the nobles mostly ate animals and the peasants mostly didn't 18:53:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:54:46 Phantom_Hoover, the only examples I can think of in English are swedes and aubergines 18:55:05 i feel like there are more but i can't remember offhand 18:55:35 (= rutabagas and eggplants respectively) 18:56:27 (= 18:56:39 rutabagas are square roots, if i remember correctly 18:58:47 Meat doesn't have many exacly equivalent words in Hungarian (though there's baromfi = szárnyas), but there is a large vocabulary for the same animal when it's male, female, neutered, young, etc, and of specific body parts that are applicable to only one animal (tarja, bélszín, szűzérme). 19:00:18 [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Betseg * New user account 19:00:36 English has similar 19:00:40 although many are not used these days 19:03:43 When do you think Samhain will be? People are not always agreement. To some people it is October 31 (same as Hallowe'en) in the northern hemisphere, to some people it is 15 Scorpio in the northern hemisphere (regardless what date that might be), to some people it depends on the phase of the moon, and to some people "Samhain" simply means "November". (And, "Hallowe'en" is short for "Hallows Eve".) 19:04:23 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:04:56 (I myself don't care when in Samhain, but it is sometime near now; it is how the seasons go) 19:05:44 Hallows Day is November 1, but how common does anyone do anything for Hallows Day anymore? 19:06:35 I believe it's still celebrated in some branches of Christianity 19:06:42 it's traditionally a feast day 19:06:46 It probably is 19:07:03 Although probably some people ignore it even if they are Christian 19:07:23 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 19:07:30 zzo38: yes, it's a bank holiday here and the custom is for people to visit the cementaries for graves of their dead relatives (relatives who are still alive are visited on Easter and Christmas) 19:07:52 wob_jonas: Ah, OK. Where is that? 19:08:10 Hungary 19:08:22 it's a very popular custom, so much that there are extra buses going to cementaries 19:08:27 OK 19:08:29 yes, in Hungary 19:09:14 <\oren\> ❄ping 19:09:17 <\oren\> argh 19:09:58 What I have read is that the Catholic Church invented the name Hallows Eve to go with Hallows Day, even though they did not invent the stuff that happens on Hallows Eve. 19:13:00 To me, it is sensible to put the religious holidays according to the seasons (which is what Pagans generally do), even though Christians don't. This can be problem in southern hemisphere because Christmas is on Dec.25 even though it is the summer time there! 19:14:03 (So obviously it's a commercialized holiday where flower shops earn a lot of money, just like women's day, Valentine day, and teachers' day.) 19:14:04 I don't know if it make sense to you or not (regardless of your religion, even if you are non-religious, I think it makes sense) 19:15:29 wob_jonas: Yes, probably many shops will earn a lot of money because a lot of commercialized holiday is done, maybe a bit too much, but it is your choice to buy it or not, anyways. 19:15:33 Funnily, there seems to be no commercialized custom for October 23rd yet, despite that it's a national holiday. That's a market hole someone should grab. 19:15:55 What holiday is October 23? 19:16:11 remembrance of the revolution of 1956 19:16:31 it's a sad one, but that doesn't stop getting commercialized as far as I can see 19:21:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:21:57 I think that if people want to buy it they can but they should not force people to buy it. If people want to buy it then the store should remain open for them and earn money. But, they have to know what to sell, if that is what they intend to do! 19:23:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:25:33 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:30:21 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:35:27 -!- jeffl35 has changed nick to jeff-the-killer. 19:38:34 The file formats support by my farbfeld utilities is still limited: PNG (RW), CHR (PC, Famicom, or Gameboy) (RW), PBM/PPM/PGM (W), Z-machine XZIP picture library (R). 19:38:45 -!- 17SAAF3NW has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:38:45 -!- 7GHAALOJK has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:50:20 Happy programmer's Christmas! 19:52:51 to you as well, Taneb 19:53:27 Taneb: did you invent christmas 19:54:35 shachaf, no 19:54:46 ? tanebventions 19:54:47 Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex. 19:55:12 slwd tanebvention//s#any#Christmas, nor any# 19:55:14 wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents Christmas, nor anything involving se 19:55:18 curses 19:55:28 ? the oxford comma 19:55:29 the oxford comma? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:55:29 revert 19:55:35 rm: cannot remove /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 19:55:41 revert 19:55:43 rm: cannot remove /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 19:55:45 ? tanebvention 19:55:46 Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents Christmas, nor anything involving sex. 19:56:00 it'll be ok 19:56:09 i was reading a pretty good chick tract today 19:56:13 http://media.chick.com/tractimages67491/1075/1075_12.gif 19:57:54 shachaf, I don't not invent Christmas either 19:59:25 Taneb: I suggest that you invent it. you can make a great profit from it, selling electronics and other stuff people buy as gifts. 20:03:31 <\oren\> ? tweet 20:03:31 tweet? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:03:35 <\oren\> ? twitter 20:03:36 Twitter is Taneb's bird collection (presumably). 20:03:42 <\oren\> hooral 20:03:51 <\oren\> hooray 20:04:03 revert 20:04:04 rm: cannot remove /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done. 20:04:08 <\oren\> ? tweetoflakes 20:04:09 tweetoflakes? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 20:04:19 now 20:04:20 wisdom/tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex. 20:04:25 why did you revert me? 20:04:42 I did? 20:04:51 I think I reverted myself. 20:05:45 ok 20:05:59 I didn't see youre edit command 20:06:19 But you saw my now 20:06:32 Which shows the current state of the file modified by the most recent command. 20:06:40 (before shows the previous state.) 20:07:11 I just played a computer golf game; I managed to hit the ball into the sand, and then my second stroke was also into the sand, and then from the sand I managed to hit it into the hole, making par. 20:07:18 hoag 20:07:19 revert \ revert \ revert \ slwd tanebvention//s#any#Christmas, nor any# \ learn A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. \  sed -i \'s/ / /\' wisdom/orodruin \ le/rn theseus/Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect 20:07:51 On the other hand I don't see the point of your wisdom entry. 20:07:55 Maybe I'm missing something? 20:24:00 int-e: did you fix the @more bug yet twh 20:35:38 -!- augur has joined. 20:53:49 -!- hydraz has changed nick to amused. 21:40:34 -!- moony_the_lycan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:00:41 -!- boily has joined. 22:01:26 wisdom 22:01:27 preorder//A preorder is just a small thin category. 22:03:01 wisdom 22:03:02 nooooodl//nooooooodl is the correct spelling 22:03:13 ? lynn 22:03:14 lynn likes to impersonate seasonal cucurbitaceæ. 22:03:30 learn lynnnnnn is the correct spelynnng 22:03:32 Learned 'lynnnnnn': lynnnnnn is the correct spelynnng 22:04:44 forget lynnnnnn 22:04:47 Forget what? 22:05:02 hellochaf. shouldn't it be lyyyyyyyyyn? 22:05:11 no hth 22:05:17 OKAY TDH 22:06:30 who knows where lynn even is 22:06:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:06:42 i couldn't find lynn even if presented with a lynnear map 22:07:11 * boily thwacks shachaf. 0.91 Sh. 22:07:23 i don't like this scale 22:07:50 would you rather have it be the FP (FunPun) scale? 22:08:16 @ask lynn hellynn. do you know where you are? 22:08:16 Consider it noted. 22:11:28 -!- LKoen has quit (Client Quit). 22:12:43 -!- shalashaska33 has joined. 22:13:10 -!- shalashaska33 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:14:14 -!- shalashaska33 has joined. 22:14:30 hi all 22:16:14 Hello 22:17:14 what's the topic today ? I'm new 22:17:31 Did you see the topic message? That is the topic today. 22:17:40 The topic in general is a bit different question. 22:17:43 and it's zzo38: soon to be yesterday's topic 22:18:22 welcome shalashaska33 22:18:23 shalashaska33: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 22:19:18 -!- shalashaska33 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:21:46 welcoming people make them leave... 22:24:04 they could have wanted a channel about something else 22:24:24 then they leave when they learn that the channel isn't what they wanted it to be 22:24:32 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 22:25:14 ? #esoteric 22:25:15 ​#esoteric is the only channel that exists. After monqy left it became slightly off-centër. It's a 7-codimensional hyperenchilada about 30 m (100 ft) across. oerjan seems to be making a lawn in the northern part, but it keeps getting dug up by free ranging moons. Currently located in the Atlantis Exclusion Zone. 22:26:24 <^v> i just started a youtube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCctpS7fJyQh6O5H44uN-4bA 22:26:29 I think that name was a Metal Gear Solid reference. 22:26:30 <^v> im gonna do a tutorial series on brainfuck 22:26:46 Not sure if that means they were more or less likely than average to be looking for something else than us. 22:27:17 Do you know how much is the average? 22:27:48 I don't have statistics on that. 22:27:50 brainfuck again? what's wrong why all the other esolangs? 22:28:18 BF's the most popular 22:28:25 and something many people want to learn 22:28:52 it's also easy enough that it can be viably taught, and has enough depth to give a lot of material 22:29:32 whereas more difficult esolangs are often about finding the trick that lets you compile something else into them 22:31:00 hmm... compiling something else into them. let me check if you fixed your description of your M:tG turing completeness proof 22:31:33 What was wrong with it? 22:31:50 zzo38: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:StackFlow 22:31:55 we believe it's fixable 22:32:03 but it's not a trivial one word fix 22:33:00 The active player's triggers are placed on the stack first in an order of his choice, and then the nonactive player does his triggers in his order. 22:35:28 his or her hth 22:35:45 <\oren\> I am giving out candy 22:35:59 WANT! 22:36:07 I saw a bunch of people in costumes today. 22:36:24 I saw a bunch of people in costumes on Saturday in the mall 22:37:17 I saw a bunch of people in costumes in Saturday in the tube. 22:37:57 -!- moonheart08 has joined. 22:37:58 -!- moony has joined. 22:38:01 But it was also http://www.mcmcomiccon.com/london/ so I don't know if they were participants there or just some sort of a pre-Halloween thing. 22:38:14 I think I saw a bunch of people Saturday, but it's far away and there's no proof Saturday exists. 22:38:52 -!- moonheart08 has quit (Client Quit). 22:40:28 i may be switching my windows computer to a GNU/Linux Debian system. any advice before i do this? 22:41:19 mhelloony. backup your personal stuff, and that's about it. 22:41:33 moony: backup in advance; and assuming you're planning to continue as dual-boot, get Windows to repartition the disk in advance to make a lot of empty space 22:41:52 then install Linux to the empty space (partitioning that as you like) 22:42:04 ais523: This immovable files thing Windows does is very annoying. 22:42:13 Windows is better at resizing drives in its own formats than the typical Linux installer is 22:42:16 shachaf: indeed :-( 22:42:26 I finally figured out how to disable enough things to resize my NTFS partition to the size I wanted. 22:42:36 But it was a long and complicated list. 22:42:50 moony: try to search on the internet for experience by people who tried to use linux with hardware you use, especially wrt power management, video card, wifi card, and hardware raid. 22:42:53 Swap files, System Restore, all sorts of things. 22:43:47 If it's a laptop and a not entirely obscure model, usually someone's written an article about how Linux runs on it. 22:44:01 its a laptop. Toshiba Satellite 22:44:17 C55-B5300 22:44:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:44:58 right, it's more important for notebooks because (a) power management is more important there, (b) wifi cards are more important there, and (c) you can't easily add other hardware to replace hardware you can't get to work with linux 22:45:26 I've installed Ubuntu on a Toshiba Satellite before now, it went fine 22:46:06 ? shaventions 22:46:07 Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them. 22:46:27 I've installed Debian on a Toshiba Tecra 730CDT, it didn't go terribly well. 22:46:37 ls be* 22:46:38 Or I guess it went reasonably well, but it was a little convoluted. 22:46:38 ls: cannot access be*: No such file or directory 22:46:42 er 22:46:45  ls be* 22:46:46 ls: cannot access be*: No such file or directory 22:47:01 actually, does Debian have a secure boot cert? 22:47:16 and does the Toshiba in question have a secure boot configuration? 22:47:19 if so that might need dealing with 22:47:31 ais523: it's complicated... it has one in the future, I think 22:47:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: POLYMER CHICKEN). 22:47:44 but I think on many computers you can disable the secure boot 22:47:49 <^v> ais523, the channel currently is a joke but i did create a ~50 slide presentation which goes into depth how to program high level programs in brainfuck 22:48:06 wob_jonas: yes but Windows bitches if you do that 22:48:07 <^v> including a language i wrote which keeps track of variables and does other neat stuff 22:48:14 the problem with secure boot isn't its existence but its configuration 22:48:27 I made sure that this laptop allows changing the secure boot configuration before buying it 22:48:44 <^v> like right now if you search "how to code in brainfuck" basically nothing shows up but printing basic strings 22:48:45 <^v> lol 22:48:46 although the Linux half of the configuration changing was buggy last I checked 22:48:49 ais523: Did you figure out the job thing? 22:48:57 shachaf: I had an interview last week 22:49:05 haven't heard back yet; the interview went fairly well 22:49:09 an interview? nice 22:49:22 and whether I get the job pretty much depends on how good the other candidates were, I suspect I'd get it if nobody else applied 22:49:37 so it's down to whether any of them are better than me 22:49:42 what sort of job? 22:49:53 programming for a CS department 22:49:59 * moony rederps and shrinks the C partition to make room for the linux partitions 22:50:00 better than you [at the interview process] 22:50:24 33-44 GB should be enough i hope. >_> 22:50:39 What sort of programming? 22:50:42 because i cant get much more than that due to me being a complete derp and using almost all the diskspace 22:50:44 Are you going to write databases? 22:50:48 no 22:50:50 shachaf: it's compiler-related I think 22:51:20 does the work environment seem pleasant? 22:51:33 wob_jonas: I've worked there before 22:51:44 moony: currently I have three Linux partitions: swap, home, everything else 22:51:46 ah 22:51:58 the "everything else" is currently using 6 GiB, and it's fuller for me than it would be for many other people 22:51:59 Compiler for Standard ML? 22:52:25 shachaf: well the interview was in OCaml 22:52:33 for the programming sections 22:52:47 What other sections were there? 22:52:53 Do you think the interview process is good? 22:53:01 normal job interview stuff, "tell me about yourself" and the like 22:53:37 and I was OK with the normal interviewy parts, the programming part I had no real issue with the questions/tasks but was upset at all the surrounding infrastructure 22:53:42 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 22:53:47 "tell me about yourself" sounds like one of the most unpleasant questions anyone could ask me. 22:53:54 I guess it's a request, not a question. 22:54:04 yes but it's very common in interviews 22:54:07 they elaborated a bit 22:54:09 shachaf: Requests and questions are isomorphic 22:54:11 I think I'm unusual in this respect? 22:54:14 hth 22:54:20 saying that they were interested in the sorts of things I'd done in previous jobs, what relevant experience I had, etc. 22:54:31 out of interest, do you have a job? 22:54:37 Yes. 22:54:44 things you've done in previous jobs, now that's a better question 22:54:46 ok, adjusting C drive partition... now 22:54:55 And I've had others before this one. 22:54:58 did they ask you to tell them about yourself in the interview? 22:55:13 and it's one that's probably worth to prepare for when you go to a job interview like this 22:55:16 I think "tell me about yourself" has been a relatively uncommon question in interviews. 22:55:16 shachaf: Though the first time I read that requestion, I read it as "let me tell you about yourself" 22:55:37 moony: anyway I think 10 GB should easily be enough for the OS, programs, etc. 22:55:43 One time I was asked "what is your dream job?", which makes me almost as uncomfortable. 22:55:43 anything beyond that will just be for storing your own files 22:55:47 Which is a REALLY unpleasant thing to hear, though not a question at all 22:55:49 you could use the Windows partition for those 22:55:49 ais523, still want more :p 22:56:07 When I was hired, I looked at the internal company interview guidelines, and I found out that they just asked that question to put the candidate at ease. 22:56:12 The answer was effectively ignored. 22:56:15 Can you imagine? 22:56:57 Most of the rest of the interview was asking me technical questions, which I was much more comfortable with. 22:57:04 shachaf: I'd find dream job hard to answer. the problem is that my dream job is not having to do anything but getting paid a lot, but that's economically unrealistic, and I don't know enough about the current market situation to figure out an answer that's the most dreamlike among economically possible ones. 22:57:26 moony: buy an external hard disk? 22:57:39 wob_jonas, may do that 22:58:16 Another "tell me about yourself" thing companies implicitly do is ask for a résumé. 22:58:24 Or maybe a CV. 22:58:48 I refused to provide that at first, but eventually I gave in. 22:59:04 * moony is downloading the ubuntu install disk, because he thinks it may work better for a first-time dualbooter 22:59:35 I've managed to use 23.4 gigabytes of "everything else". 23:00:02 Of which 15 are in /usr. 23:00:19 interesting, anything there that's particularly large, or is it an accumulation of small things? 23:00:31 fizzie: how much in /usr/local ? 23:00:33 ohderp it thinks i have a AMD computer. 23:00:43 and how many ghc installs? 23:00:44 wob_jonas: 144 kilobytes. 23:00:57 whats the value i need to make it give me the intel install 23:00:58 ais523: I think it's just a matter of always installing and never removing any packages. 23:01:19 moony: if it says "amd64", that's the name of the 64-bit architecture used by both Intel and AMD processors 23:01:25 AMD invented it, then Intel started producing it too 23:01:32 oh 23:01:40 3507 installed packages, according to dpkg-query. 23:01:42 i am a derp. 23:02:11 There's probably some way of asking dpkg to list them in order of size used on disk. 23:02:49 I think texlive makes up for a big chunk of that. 23:03:06 fizzie: just look for large directories or files, eg. du -a | sort -n 23:03:56 or better, du -a | egrep "^[0-9]{4}" | sort -n 23:04:21 Yay! I think I made a small object that maps natural numbers to natural number k-tuples 23:04:22 and yes, texlive and libreoffice take up a lot 23:04:35 Well, /usr/share/doc/texlive-doc is over a gigabyte. 23:04:44 ok, yay, free 73 GB for whatever i want 23:04:56 i need to clean up my win installation anyways 23:04:58 It's the first really "specific" directory; the only bigger ones are things like /usr/lib/gcc and /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu. 23:05:02 moony: did you accidentally delete your Windows installation? 23:05:06 No 23:05:09 lol 23:05:21 im on _hexchat_ 23:05:30 so where did the extra 50GB come from? 23:05:40 free space 23:05:51 this is a 400GB drive 23:05:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 23:06:06 deleted your whole porn folder? other movies? music collection? photographs? temporary cache files? spam? 23:06:14 lol 23:06:19 downloaded version of your mailbox? 23:06:28 i should clean my downloads folder :p 23:06:46 video games or video game installers maybe? 23:07:01 i deleted a 3gb game i dont play anymore 23:07:06 :P 23:07:12 oh fuck my life the tearing is back when i scroll 23:07:28 Hm, maybe not... 23:07:42 disable the stupid soft scrolling :P 23:09:21 irc logs? 23:09:39 int-e, that's a bad solution and you know it 23:10:02 I don't know it, I really hate smooth scrolling. 23:10:13 [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50068&oldid=50056 * Albedo * (+0) /* instructions */ code error corrected 23:10:36 Phantom_Hoover: try scrolling by dragging the scrollbar middle with the first mouse button or pressing pagedown rather than using the scroll wheel or other methods. 23:11:04 so do i have to burn the install disk to the USB? 23:11:59 moony: there are multiple methods. I usually copy the tiny (network) installer to the hard disk, then boot it from a grub boot loader (either already on hard disk or from a bootable dvd with grub) 23:12:13 s/network/netboot/ 23:12:25 yea, im using a net installer. 23:12:42 the netboot installer makes it easy because it consists of only a kernel and an initrd, no other files necessary 23:12:45 due to a somehow 1GB usb :P 23:12:57 thanks debian netinstall :P 23:13:32 burning to a USB stick is normally the easiest method, although it's not the only one that works 23:13:32 obviously it also means having to download everything from network redundantly each time you install 23:16:13 true 23:16:28 but i already have a netinstall thing downloaded to my computer :p 23:16:53 burn the netinstall plus a boot loader to the usb stick? 23:25:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:29:00 making the bootable drive 23:31:18 -!- iovoid has changed nick to spooki. 23:31:19 -!- spooki has changed nick to spookio. 23:36:19 -!- moony has changed nick to moony_the_lycan. 23:37:58 -!- moony_the_lycan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:45:20 Is 2^2^|R larger than 2^|R? 23:45:22 I assume so 23:46:35 @google cantor's theorem 23:46:35 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor's_theorem 23:46:44 that answers a bunch of the recent questions hth 23:47:13 ais523: ty 23:47:38 Presumably P {} = {{}} 23:48:13 why am I being thanked? 23:48:21 ais523: Whoops 23:48:23 ais523: Not sure? 23:48:25 shachaf: ty 23:48:42 Hm, S(0) = {}; S(k) = 2^S(k-1); 23:48:54 how do people confuse me and shachaf? 23:49:44 ais523: That is a good question 23:50:11 ais523: tab completion and qwert 23:50:19 ais523: With an existentially satisfying answer form which springs forth the meaning of life, a Grand Unified theorem, and the secret to immortality 23:50:27 s/form/from/ 23:50:52 wob_jonas: Is QWERT the union of QWERTY and QWERTZ? 23:51:02 yes 23:51:36 clearly we need a QWERTX too 23:51:53 well, we have azerty