←2016-12-05 2016-12-06 2016-12-07→ ↑2016 ↑all
00:03:36 <Perenelle> Been awhile since I came and talked extensively in esoteric
00:03:51 <shachaf> Under what name?
00:04:04 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:04:19 <Perenelle> Talking in present tense
00:08:10 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode \
00:08:12 <HackEgo> ​[U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS]
00:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> Hm.
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00:09:36 <Perenelle> It snowed here last night
00:10:17 -!- Perenelle has quit (Quit: Tired Zzz).
00:18:49 <izalove> someone gave me a laptop with windows vista
00:19:04 <izalove> every time i start it, i get a blue screen within a minute
00:19:15 <izalove> blue screen says hardware error
00:19:57 <izalove> i booted ubuntu from usb and it worked for several hours with no problem
00:20:26 <izalove> internet works, screen works, keyboard works, disk works
00:20:40 <izalove> how do i fix this? ;-;
00:22:11 <izalove> i don't want to reinstall windows if it's not gonna fix the problem
00:22:51 <olsner> have you run memtest?
00:23:26 <izalove> no but it worked fine with ubuntu
00:23:49 <olsner> that might just mean ubuntu failed to crash because of the problem
00:24:16 <olsner> and instead you have e.g. corrupted files or file systems
00:24:24 <hppavilion[1]> olsner: That's a horrifying sentence. Is that a joke?
00:24:39 <olsner> nope
00:24:53 <hppavilion[1]> olsner: I think I'm never going to switch to linux
00:25:05 <izalove> olsner: i used ubuntu to copy all the files to a different machine
00:25:36 <olsner> hppavilion[1]: I'm talking about the case where you have bad ram that is actually flipping bits
00:25:58 <izalove> how could ubuntu not crash in that case?
00:26:19 <olsner> good/bad luck, pretty much
00:27:52 <fizzie> Compiling something big is the traditional way of surfacing problems like that.
00:28:16 <fizzie> https://www.bitwizard.nl/sig11/ and so on.
00:28:31 <shachaf> holsner
00:29:02 <olsner> but running a memtest is good, that should either confirm or almost-exclude memory problems as the cause and you can go on to other theories or replace the ram
00:29:20 <shachaf> `wisdom olsner
00:29:22 <HackEgo> olsner//olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
00:29:29 <izalove> ok memtest it is
00:29:39 <shachaf> `dowg olsner
00:29:45 <olsner> dowg?
00:29:47 <HackEgo> 4366:2014-01-25 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/$/./\' wisdom/olsner \ 4365:2014-01-24 <km̈c> echo \'olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines\' > wisdom/olsner \ 656:2012-08-16 <oerjän> learn olsner seems to exist at least.
00:30:01 <olsner> hichaf
00:30:11 <shachaf> hellolsner
00:30:41 <olsner> (and I am not actually here, ignore me while I resume procrastinihting)
00:30:48 <shachaf> `learn_append olsner His poetry's alphanumeric.
00:30:52 <HackEgo> Learned 'olsner': olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines. His poetry's alphanumeric.
00:31:33 <izalove> i was also wondering if linux is actually detecting a hardware problem and working around it
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01:11:59 <zzo38> There is the rule in GURPS that a Faraday shield can block a lightning bolt spell.
01:19:42 -!- oerjan has joined.
01:20:33 <oerjan> my internet was down :(
01:21:15 <Zarutian> net erectile dysfunction? Seems you got it up again
01:21:33 <oerjan> i didn't, i just waited.
01:21:51 <oerjan> after turning off and on the router enough times.
01:22:19 <oerjan> and convincing myself the fault wasn't on my side.
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01:59:12 <hppavilion[1]> If one chooses a random natural number, what is the probability of getting any particular random number?
02:01:12 <oerjan> 0 hth
02:01:51 <oerjan> (more seriously, a uniformly random natural number does not fit in usual probability theory)
02:02:52 <Jafet> when you choose a random natural number, you get a natural number, not a random number
02:03:02 <oerjan> that too.
02:03:14 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OK, that's what I thought
02:03:23 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Crap, whoops
02:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I do feel like probability theory should have a value other than 0 for that. Using 0 bugs me.
02:04:10 <shachaf> The serious answer is not 0.
02:04:19 <shachaf> (The serious answer appears in parentheses.)
02:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yes, true
02:04:35 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: How so?
02:05:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: probability theory has an axiom of countable additivity, which means that for countable sets you just sum the probabilities.
02:05:30 <oerjan> as a series. which means summing 0s gives 0.
02:05:39 <hppavilion[1]> Like, if r is a randomly-chosen real in [0 -> 1], P(r = k) = ι for any constant k in [0 -> 1]
02:05:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh?
02:05:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, what if the sum > 1?
02:06:12 <oerjan> well then it wasn't a probability to start with.
02:06:18 * hppavilion[1] is probably confused
02:06:21 <hppavilion[1]> (pun intended)
02:06:35 <shachaf> Watch out, you don't want to do too much probability theory.
02:06:37 <oerjan> another axiom is that the probability of the whole outcome space is 1.
02:07:02 <shachaf> Bad things can happen, as specified in the axiom of countable addictivity.
02:07:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: for reals it's simpler. then the probability _is_ 0, and it works splendidly.
02:07:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: And also the axiom of countable acidity
02:07:34 <oerjan> (they're not countable.)
02:08:01 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh! I see what you're saying
02:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> I think
02:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, that makes sense. I was confus as to what you were saying
02:08:31 <hppavilion[1]> I thought it was something about summing distinct sets
02:08:57 <oerjan> it is, it's just that when your whole space is countalbe you can make the sets contain a single point each
02:09:02 <oerjan> *bl
02:09:32 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, for reals?
02:10:42 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:12:00 <Jafet> the axiom of countable addictivity has been reported to leave people with a sense of disjointedness
02:12:28 <shachaf> more like scowntable
02:12:28 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If one DID make a number ι (not the definition above, that was a mistake), where sum({|countably infinitely many ιs|}) = 1, and SOMEHOW dodged all the problems and paradoxes you get with infinity and infinitessimals, would ι be an acceptable probability there?
02:12:35 <hppavilion[1]> s/make/define/
02:13:09 <oerjan> probably.
02:13:13 <hppavilion[1]> ...
02:13:27 * hppavilion[1] revokes oerjan's swatter privileges
02:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If you can't practice what you preach, don't preach it
02:14:25 <oerjan> i'm just demonstrating privilege hth
02:15:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you seem to be under the misconception that the swatter has ever been used fairly.
02:16:04 <hppavilion[1]> P(*ℕ) = ι, P(*ℝ) = 2^(-1/ι) = ι₂
02:16:16 <shachaf> oerjan is the final arbiter of swatworthiness
02:16:33 <oerjan> can we revoke hppavilion[1]'s unicode privileges instead?
02:16:35 <shachaf> He's even the arbiter where natural numbers are concerned.
02:16:39 <shachaf> oerjan: sgtm
02:17:18 <Jafet> (some addicts have also shown σ lingering behaviours)
02:17:20 <hppavilion[1]> Where *S is the probability of some element of S the one chosen when an element is chosen at random
02:17:31 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: ...divisive?
02:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: deviant?
02:17:54 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't get it.
02:18:35 <hppavilion[1]> Or, P(*S) is that probability. *S is... I don't know... short for <some random element of S> = <some independent random element of S>?
02:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> Because P(a = b) = 1/|S| for two independently-randomly-chosen elements of S a and b, right?
02:19:14 <Jafet> they're σ-addicts hth
02:19:15 * hppavilion[1] needs to dinner
02:19:30 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: OK, how are you reading σ?
02:19:47 <hppavilion[1]> I see "sigma"
02:20:28 <oerjan> the sigma is fine. i'm wondering where lingering fits.
02:21:05 <shachaf> maybe "malingering"?
02:21:10 <oerjan> maybe.
02:21:36 <shachaf> p. sure this was your job
02:21:43 <shachaf> Anyway I didn't even manage to make "arbiter" work.
02:21:47 <Jafet> probably sure?
02:22:22 <oerjan> `? p
02:22:24 <HackEgo> P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
02:22:26 <oerjan> `? p.
02:22:27 <HackEgo> p.? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:22:36 <shachaf> `dowt p
02:22:50 <HackEgo> 8981:2016-08-27 <oerjän> learn P is the complexity class of problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP. \ 8982:2016-08-27 <oerjän> learn P is the complexity class of Problems. They can be solved by reduction to NP.
02:23:06 <shachaf> Are you sure NP isn't Nasty Problems?
02:23:44 <oerjan> `le//rn p.//P. is p. easy to understand.
02:23:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'p.': P. is p. easy to understand.
02:24:02 <oerjan> `? NP
02:24:04 <HackEgo> NP is the complexity class of decisions that are No Problem.
02:24:05 <oerjan> p. sure.
02:24:27 <oerjan> i didn't say the reduction was easy.
02:25:16 <oerjan> shachaf: as an arbiter, it's obviously my job to be arbitrary.
02:25:21 <shachaf> oerjan: right
02:25:57 <shachaf> oerjan: Wait, are all problems decision problems?
02:28:18 <oerjan> `le/rn promise problem/A promise problem is one that happens because you promise too much. Their reduction to NP is particularly difficult.
02:28:18 <Jafet> `sled p.//sSsSs a p. good word that isS
02:28:19 <HackEgo> No output.
02:28:20 <HackEgo> Rosebud!
02:28:38 <oerjan> Jafet: slwd hth
02:28:49 <oerjan> oh duh
02:29:00 <oerjan> `le//rn promise problem//A promise problem is one that happens because you promise too much. Their reduction to NP is particularly difficult.
02:29:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'promise problem': A promise problem is one that happens because you promise too much. Their reduction to NP is particularly difficult.
02:29:06 <Jafet> `slwd p.//sSsSs a p. good word that isS
02:29:09 <HackEgo> p.//P. is a p. good word that is p. easy to understand.
02:29:25 <Jafet> vh
02:29:41 <shachaf> vh is nvh
02:30:24 <shachaf> `? Jafet
02:30:25 <HackEgo> Jafet? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:31:19 <oerjan> `slwd promise problem//s,par.* ,p. ,
02:31:23 <HackEgo> promise problem//A promise problem is one that happens because you promise too much. Their reduction to NP is p. difficult.
02:34:11 <shachaf> oerjan: now do all the other complexity classes twh
02:35:19 <Jafet> `? complexity class
02:35:21 <HackEgo> complexity class? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
02:36:13 <shachaf> p. sure P is a complexity set
02:54:50 <Jafet> `le//rn complexity class//Complexity classes are endangered creatures that lived unnoticed until the mid-20th century, when human exploitation caused many populations to collapse. The remaining specimens are now studied ethically in Canada.
02:54:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'complexity class': Complexity classes are endangered creatures that lived unnoticed until the mid-20th century, when human exploitation caused many populations to collapse. The remaining specimens are now studied ethically in Canada.
03:06:04 <shachaf> Canada?
03:06:11 <shachaf> oerjan: twh
03:08:44 <Jafet> in waterloo, specifically
03:09:48 <oerjan> `sled bin/slashlearn//2s,exit 1,{ echo 'All le//rn variants now use two slashes in the format.' >\&2 ; exit 1 },
03:09:53 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn//sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'All le//rn variants now use two slashes in the format.' >&2 ; exit 1 } \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed '
03:10:12 <oerjan> `le/rn Testing/ho
03:10:13 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/le/rn: line 7: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:10:16 <oerjan> fff
03:11:25 <shachaf> oerjan: exit 1; hth
03:11:45 <oerjan> `sled bin/slashlearn//2s,exit 1,&;,
03:11:49 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn//sep="//" \ [[ "$1" == ?*"$sep"* ]] || { echo 'All le//rn variants now use two slashes in the format.' >&2 ; exit 1; } \ key="$(echo "${1%%$sep*}" | lowercase)" \ value="${1#*$sep}" \ [ -e "wisdom/$key" ] && verb="Relearned" || verb="Learned" \ echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "wisdom/$key")" && echo -n "$verb '$key': $(echo "$value" | sed
03:11:59 <oerjan> `le/rn Testing/ho
03:12:00 <HackEgo> All le//rn variants now use two slashes in the format.
03:12:44 <shachaf> `le/rn Testing//hi
03:12:50 <HackEgo> Relearned 'testing': hi
03:13:04 <shachaf> `before
03:13:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/testing//Testing is mandatory.
03:40:57 <oerjan> `dowg oklopol
03:41:01 <HackEgo> 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import.
03:41:04 <oerjan> huh
03:41:19 <izalove> guess who wrote the first piece of inutility that recurses in a directory tree
03:41:24 <izalove> ok i'll tell you: it was me
03:41:29 <oerjan> OKAY
03:41:40 <izalove> \o/
03:42:32 <oerjan> (what's inutility)
03:43:16 <izalove> a collection of small linux utilities
03:46:14 <oerjan> sounds inusefule
03:46:18 <oerjan> argh
03:46:30 * oerjan starts chasing muphry with the saucepan ===\__/
03:46:35 <oerjan> also, food ->
03:46:36 <zzo38> What is it doing though?
03:47:21 <izalove> `? muphry
03:47:22 <HackEgo> muphry? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:47:56 <zzo38> I wrote a program called "lease" which is specific to Linux. (It simply waits until a file is accessed, and then terminates.)
03:48:09 <izalove> with inotify?
03:48:34 <shachaf> Why did you write it rather than using e.g. inotifywait?
03:48:48 <zzo38> No, it uses fcntl
03:48:51 <izalove> maybe they didn't know about inotifywait
03:49:09 <izalove> uh how does that work?
03:49:09 <zzo38> shachaf: For one thing, I didn't know about it.
03:49:38 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/dAQh
03:49:45 <zzo38> That is how it works.
03:50:46 <shachaf> Aha.
03:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be really nice to be able to use a computer entirely without a mouse most of the time...
03:51:53 <izalove> zzo38: what happens if you remove the second fcntl call?
03:52:02 <hppavilion[1]> Like, what if I had a tiny command prompt in the corner of my screen I could just trigger whenever that does everything nicely?
03:52:11 <zzo38> izalove: Probably nothing
03:52:27 <zzo38> s/nothing/not cause any problem/
03:53:58 <zzo38> Also this program is very small compared to inotifywait
03:55:54 <izalove> hppavilion[1]: with urxvt+bspwm+vimperator i almost never use a mouse
04:11:27 <tswett> So I realized the other day...
04:12:14 <tswett> It's plausible that Goldbach's conjecture is false (there is an even number no smaller than 4 which is not the sum of two prime numbers), but that this cannot be feasibly proven within ZFC.
04:14:01 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Not if you define 1 to be prime.
04:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: And defining 1 as prime or non-prime is actually just arbitrary
04:14:50 <izalove> how does that even help
04:14:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you're making my blood simmer.
04:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: How so?
04:15:11 * hppavilion[1] does not smile
04:16:18 <tswett> The number-of-prime-divisors function clearly should say 0 for 1.
04:16:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well yeah
04:16:35 <hppavilion[1]> It is nicer that way, true
04:16:38 <hppavilion[1]> Carry on
04:16:50 <tswett> Number-of-prime-divisors-including-duplicates, that is.
04:17:26 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well, yes. I call the bag of prime divisors of n ςn, so you could say |ςn|
04:17:34 <tswett> Yeah, that.
04:18:51 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: OH! I see, I read tswett's message wrong
04:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: sorry
04:57:07 <izalove> from man sponge
04:57:09 <izalove> -a Replace the file with a new file that contains the file's original content, with the standard
04:57:11 <izalove> input appended to it. This is done atomically when possible.
04:57:37 <izalove> atomically when possible in this case just means to use rename when the file didn't exist
04:57:56 <izalove> is there any filesystem that allows concatenating two files atomically?
04:58:02 <hppavilion[1]> izalove: What if I want to prepend?
04:58:10 <izalove> you don't use -a
04:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
04:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> I don't have sponge, so I can't manit
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05:09:14 <zzo38> Cumulative upkeep--untap a nontoken creature
05:21:41 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ΧΡ
05:22:25 <\oren\> `unidecode ℴ
05:22:28 <HackEgo> ​[U+2134 SCRIPT SMALL O]
05:23:29 <hppavilion[1]> `unidecode ꙮ
05:23:37 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I win the unidecꙮding contest
05:23:41 <myname> windows chi rho
05:24:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Mein Gott...
05:24:52 <myname> was denn?
05:25:55 * hppavilion[1] gets his german-to-english dictionary
05:26:42 <myname> by the way, duolingo actually does a pretty good job at that
05:27:04 <myname> it has fewer words that say leo, but it has more phrase-like stuff
05:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> (ꙮ_ꙮ is a nice emoticon)
05:27:51 <myname> damn
05:27:55 <myname> i meant beolingus
05:29:10 <myname> it doesn't work well on this one, though
05:31:46 * hppavilion[1] returns with his dictionary
05:31:54 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Mine is... Collins
05:31:58 <hppavilion[1]> It appears
05:34:42 <myname> it's actually pretty hard to translate, i'm surprised
05:34:59 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Windows XP -> Windows Chi Rho. Das denn.
05:36:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: OK, just to check, does standard QWERTZ have a slash I can do commands with?
05:36:44 <myname> shift+7?
05:37:25 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Looks like slash is shift+7, back slash is Alt-Gr+ß.
05:37:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Ah, ja
05:37:36 <myname> it is
05:40:46 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of Magic: the Gathering card: Cast target permanent.
05:41:24 <myname> what would that do to say "your opponent loses one health"?
05:41:48 <zzo38> ?
05:42:04 <zzo38> I do not quite understand you?
05:42:24 <myname> okay, i may not understand your desired effect correctly
05:44:19 <zzo38> I mean what it says
05:44:45 <myname> i am not familiar with mtg
05:46:05 <zzo38> Then you must learn. http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/
05:46:16 <shachaf> Must you?
05:46:34 <myname> nah, i donjt find it that interesting
05:48:40 <hppavilion[1]> oh, mein Wörterbuch aufliste "ASCII"
05:49:15 * hppavilion[1] hopes that's even remotely correct
05:50:15 <myname> i am not sure what "listing ascii" is supposed to mean, but you'd say "listet ascii auf"
05:50:33 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Ah, danke
05:51:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So "mein Wörterbuch listet ascii auf"?
05:52:27 <hppavilion[1]> [to mean that it has an entry to translate ASCII into german]
05:52:52 <myname> fair enough
05:53:06 <myname> what does it translate to?
05:53:44 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm attempting to say "Oh, my dictionary lists ASCII". In retrospect, "lists" may have been bad word choice, because it doesn't even sound normal in english xD
05:53:57 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Oh!
05:54:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Just ASCII. I thought it was interesting because it seems obvious
05:54:18 * hppavilion[1] is bad at communicating in any language it seems
05:54:45 <myname> i don't see any reason to translate acronyms
05:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yeah
05:55:19 <hppavilion[1]> It seems straightforward
05:55:32 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe ascii is in such common use people are beginning to forget it's an acronym?
05:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> Seems unlikely, but mayb
05:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> *+e
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09:13:22 <\oren\> `quote
09:13:31 <HackEgo> 709) <monqy> Sgeo: I used to have strict requirements for when I said hi but then everyone started saying hi and it all got weird
09:26:41 <\oren\> `quote
09:26:44 <HackEgo> 984) <Bike> W A R N I N G. This source code follows transcomplex computational paths, even where more accurate, real, computational paths exist. <Bike> Y O U H A V E B E E N W A R N E D. <Bike> It literally says that
09:28:30 <\oren\> oedp
09:29:08 <\oren\> `quote
09:29:10 <HackEgo> 371) <Gregor> oklopol: Why do you have so much experience with hoop-and-stick? :P <oklopol> Gregor: my fetish: learning pointless skills
09:32:41 <int-e> wow, transcomplex
09:33:19 <int-e> . o O ( It's so messy that we simply think of it as goo. We don't know how it works but it works. )
09:37:20 <\oren\> `quote
09:37:21 <HackEgo> 624) <oerjan> wolfram armageddon, the genius overlord game
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09:54:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OIL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50459&oldid=50436 * L3viathan * (+75) add link to Rust implementation
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10:08:03 <b_jonas> whoa... another ais523 esolang
10:17:02 <olsner> aah, monqy and 'hi' memes, good old esoteric times
10:20:14 <b_jonas> ARGH trivial brainfuck substitutions have now spread to non-brainfuck esolangs. I don't know if I should consider that a good or a bad thing. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Numeric_Underload
10:24:50 <b_jonas> oh! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Incident#O.28log_n.29_version
10:28:10 <b_jonas> apparently oerjan has a construction
10:28:55 <nvd> `? fuzzy prolog
10:28:57 <HackEgo> fuzzy prolog? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
10:29:30 <b_jonas> scary
10:37:21 <Jafet> subjectivist prolog
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11:36:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emotinomicon]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50460 * B jonas * (+502) Created page with "'''Emotinomicon''' is a stack-based language by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. Source code in this language is text built from emoticon characters. The language is likely Turing-co..."
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11:47:20 <boily> `wisdom
11:47:28 <HackEgo> ehlist//ehlist is update notification for the Everyday Heroes webcomic. http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/
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12:37:15 <izalove> how often do non-vegetarian humans eat meat on avg? like, 2-4 times a week?
12:37:36 <izalove> dog food contains meat, dogs eat meat twice a day
12:37:58 <izalove> so to prove that you love animals you have to feed your dog other animals
12:39:18 <nvd> Or get a hamster
12:39:42 <izalove> yeah we love animals so let's get rid of dogs
12:46:37 <b_jonas> izalove: I personally eat meat more than once per day, in particular, I insist on eating meat for the main course of the biggest meal (lunch or dinner) of the day, and often eat meat other times too,
12:46:47 <b_jonas> provided you use a permissive enough definition of meat.
12:47:06 <LKoen> I eat meat at every lunch
12:47:18 <izalove> b_jonas: meat is a spectrum?
12:47:27 <LKoen> because I eat at the university restaurant and they don't know about vegetables
12:47:38 <LKoen> (someone seriously needs to tell them)
12:49:25 <b_jonas> izalove: for the purposes of this quest, food made of ground meat or sausages of any kind that isn't clearly a vegetarian sausage counts as meat, even if it actually has low meat content; also liver and other internals are meat; and fish meat is still meat.
12:49:57 <b_jonas> izalove: basically each vegetarian uses different definitions of what he doesn't eat, so you need ot clarify this stuff
12:50:08 <izalove> didn't know that
12:50:20 <izalove> so some vegetarians can eat salami?
12:50:22 <b_jonas> but the stuff I eat as meat is probably things most vegetarians don't eat
12:50:30 <b_jonas> izalove: no, but some vegetarians might eat fish
12:50:34 <izalove> ok
12:50:38 <izalove> that i knew
12:52:21 <b_jonas> the sausages definitely have some meat, so vegetarians don't eat them, it's just that some of the low quality ones have so little meat and so much fat and skin and other animal parts that we don't dare calling it real meat
12:54:09 <b_jonas> basically, some "meat products" are made like this: you take the meat out of the pig because that thing is valuable, then ground the rest of the pig to very small particles and crush it together to a pink mostly homogenous thing and then heat it up for hygienic reasons. the result is clearly something a vegetarian won't eat,
12:54:30 <b_jonas> but as a real meat-eater I have some hesitation of calling it meat, just like I have hesitation to call a Trabant a car
12:54:34 <FireFly> Yeah, fish I think is the main thing that is a bit arguable
12:54:50 <b_jonas> If you invite me to a meat dinner, and then buy me some of those meat products, I'll be disappointed.
12:55:09 <b_jonas> Accordingly, I try to eat real meat most of the time, but I don't want to claim that I eat real meat every day.
12:55:30 <FireFly> <izalove> how often do non-vegetarian humans eat meat on avg? like, 2-4 times a week? ← I mean, would you count a slice of ham or salami or something on a sandwich?
12:55:46 <FireFly> it feels like it's hard to quantify properly
12:57:00 <izalove> idk i was talking about lunch or dinner
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12:57:30 <FireFly> I would probably say most dishes then, I guess
12:57:30 <b_jonas> FireFly: "how many times" is also hard to count: if for lunch I eat real chicken meat in a good meat soup (broth or bouillon or whatever you call that stuff) and then I eat real meat for main course, then how much do I have to wait between the two to count as eating meat twice
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13:33:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tiny]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50461&oldid=33690 * Ron.hudson * (+141)
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14:03:06 <b_jonas> there always is a catch
14:06:10 <b_jonas> I knew there'd be one, but couldn't see it
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15:27:29 <moony> moo5
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17:27:57 <\oren\> Cats are also obliagte carnivores
17:28:58 <\oren\> and if you have mice infesting your neighbourhood, you don't need to feed them as much
17:30:26 <\oren\> I have meat as part of my dinner pretty much every day
17:30:30 <izalove> cloudatcost support just replied to my ticket
17:30:34 <izalove> AFTER 25 DAYS
17:31:06 <\oren\> izalove: presumably it is cheaper than AWS right?
17:31:40 <izalove> well it was $21/lifetime
17:32:20 <izalove> so aws is probably cheaper if you have cancer
17:34:13 <\oren\> ok, so yeah, you're getting what youre paying for
17:35:18 <int-e> izalove: so was the reply in any way constructive?
17:36:13 <int-e> 21 days uptime and no disk read or write error... what's happening!
17:36:19 <int-e> (speaking of CaC)
17:37:01 <izalove> int-e: http://i.imgur.com/nQmEFOk.png
17:37:56 <izalove> that issue was resolved like 3 days later
17:40:11 <int-e> well at least you got the (I'm assuming...) Senior Support Engineer to reply to you... sure must feel good :P
17:58:50 <\oren\> Trump just tanked Boeing's stock with a tweet
18:03:17 <ybden> \oren\: oh?
18:03:43 <\oren\> He says the new Air Force One is overpriced and he'll cancelt heir contract
18:05:00 <ybden> I wonder how much he's going to destroy whilst he's president
18:05:17 <ybden> izalove: Huh. I wonder how they're able to provide such cheap services
18:05:18 <\oren\> a new and terrifying reign of terror for governemnt contractors
18:05:25 <\oren\> lol
18:06:35 <ybden> Oh, you can only choose between Ubuntu, CentOS, Windows and FreeBSD
18:06:37 <ybden> That's a be meh
18:06:54 <ybden> “The CloudatCost Datacenter is located in Canada, Eh!” lol
18:07:44 <int-e> ybden: the official story is that they're a side business of a telco so traffic and housing is essentially free to them. previous speculation on this channel points towards a pyramid scheme, essentially. it's *really* hard to tell, because they offer larger servers with regular payments... so it depends on how many of these people are actually paying for.
18:08:13 <ybden> int-e: I see.
18:08:38 <ybden> The pyramid scheme is probably more likely :P
18:09:25 <int-e> And in any case, if they stop being profitable, bankruptcy trumps life-time contracts.
18:09:51 <ybden> Indeed
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18:13:01 <int-e> Anyway at this point I'm below $1/month of disservice, so it's all fine :P
18:16:02 <\oren\> lol, this unicode mailing list
18:16:07 <\oren\> quote:
18:16:09 <\oren\> How about package names like ロシアМС21(Note the МС are Cyrillic), or πr²の秘密, or エリ_хорошо_μ'sic_4⃣ever? Although they aren't really names that people would usually use in package/var names, they are meaningful names...
18:16:19 <int-e> Emoji were a mistake?
18:17:02 <\oren\> int-e: they're arguing over how to prevent name spoofing in source code
18:17:08 <int-e> `unidecode 4⃣
18:17:25 <\oren\> argh
18:17:33 <\oren\> I need to add that too?!?!?!
18:17:39 <int-e> ah.HackEgo:
18:17:55 <int-e> what's エリ?
18:18:03 <\oren\> eri
18:18:56 <\oren\> or maybe eli
18:19:02 <Zarutian> first I heard the word Emoji I thought it was something like Emo-Ji, an ridiculus card game played by emo kids
18:19:27 <int-e> e(l|r)i good music forever?
18:19:48 <\oren\> int-e: it's a reference to Love Live's http://love-live.wikia.com/wiki/Ayase_Eli and I am somewhat embarrassed for knowing all about it
18:20:35 <int-e> that does make sense...
18:21:41 <FireFly> \oren\: hm, those examples are actually worse than what I usually see when it comes to japanese titles of things
18:22:07 <ybden> int-e: is the service really that bad?
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18:24:57 <int-e> ybden: well for most of the time (23 months now) my VM would have the occasional write error to the storage device, causing it to mount the FS read-only and become unusable. I haven't tried customer support. From what I've seen the VMs tend to be sluggish (see HackEgo). But it could be far worse... as far as I know VMs don't simply disappear or reboot spontaneously, for example.
18:25:17 <ybden> Ah.
18:25:46 <int-e> I have actually lost data though (nothing that wasn't backed up or easy to recreate; I never put anything important there in the first place).
18:26:57 <int-e> where "occasional" averages at every 2 or 3 weeks so far.
18:29:32 <ybden> D:
18:35:41 <int-e> oh there's also this story http://www.cloudatacost.com/
18:35:52 <int-e> (with a brilliant domain name)
18:38:29 <int-e> I think I read that before I bought that VM.
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22:27:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Starfish]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50462 * Redstarcoder * (+9621) Created page with "{{wrongtitle|title=*><>}} '''*><>''' (pronounced as "starfish") is a [[Push-down_automaton|stack-based]], reflective, two-dimensional esoteric programming language based dire..."
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22:51:18 <boily> @messages-fnord
22:51:18 <lambdabot> Unknown command, try @list
22:51:21 <boily> beuh...
22:51:24 <boily> @massages-loud
22:51:24 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
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22:54:52 <boily> int-e: int-ello. lambdie isn't fnordular enough hth
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23:04:15 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] hppavellon[1]. proper gender-neutral pronouns are shi and hir hth
23:04:15 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:04:37 <shachaf> un cabot
23:05:04 <boily> bonshachoir. rien de tel qu'un bon cabot pour enjoyer la soirée.
23:06:22 <shachaf> rien de tel que un bon cabot
23:06:45 <boily> «qu'un». «-e» and «u-» merge together.
23:06:52 <shachaf> i do not use contractions hth
23:07:17 <boily> you ought to jqça.
23:11:51 <boily> the reddit admins modified the way votes count. the sudden spike is jarring.
23:12:10 <int-e> boily: you do realize that I'm tempted to have a per-channel edit distance setting just so I can set it to 0 for #esoteric?
23:13:06 <int-e> (but fortunately for you all there's currently no infrastructure for per channel settings at all.)
23:13:59 <Zarutian> boily: in what way do the votes count now?
23:14:53 <boily> Zarutellon. https://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/5gvd6b/scores_on_posts_are_about_to_start_going_up/
23:15:47 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think those contractions (removing the last vowel of the words "le la que de je se me te ce ne" when a vowel follows) are mandatory.
23:16:40 <shachaf> wob_jonas: then how come i managed not to use them hth
23:17:33 <boily> wob_jellonas. they are grammatically mandated.
23:18:47 <wob_jonas> The optional contractions are basically the silent schwas, which means that the vowel "e" when it would be pronounced as [ə] need not be pronounced, but that doesn't change writing, except that it must be pronounced when it's necessary to break up a cluster of three actually pronounced consonants (sometimes there's a choice of which schwa you prono
23:18:47 <wob_jonas> unce there) or it's the vowel in "que" or you're singing an opera.
23:20:52 <wob_jonas> Also there are informal optional contractions that come from (a) sometimes dropping the vowel of some of those words listed above even when not followed by a vowel, and (b) dropping a consonant from a consonant cluster in some cases.
23:21:10 <Zarutian> boily: aand what was the point of that change?
23:21:41 <wob_jonas> You don't have to use any of these informal contractions, but you'd better recognize them if you want to understand spoken French... though that's impossible anyway, so don't bother.
23:22:12 <wob_jonas> Spoken French is a speak-only language, it's pretty hard to understand.
23:22:47 <wob_jonas> (I wonder if it's more speak-only than Japanese, but someone who is proficient in both of those would have to tell.)
23:22:49 <boily> Zarutian: no idea what for it was to.
23:23:42 <boily> wob_jonas: spoken French is easy, tsé.
23:24:00 <wob_jonas> easy to produce
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23:25:11 <wob_jonas> My main problem with spoken French is that there are neither significant vowel length differences nor significant stress differences to break up a sentence.
23:26:05 <wob_jonas> And that results in too few entropy in the syllables and so too many ambiguities, though there's effectively still much more entropy per syllable than in Japanese.
23:27:58 <Zarutian> boily: I thought posts were simply ordered by inverse of 'expiry' unix timestamp (upvotes just moved the expiry further into the future while downvotes did the opposite). (Expiry started as default <timestamp of post> + <one day worth of seconds>)
23:28:19 <LKoen> wob_jonas: I'm pretty sure there are a lot of hints to break the sentences
23:29:09 <LKoen> because the quality of grammar and punctuation in newspaper has decreased pretty abruptly over the past few years
23:29:31 <LKoen> and when reading an article out loud I can hear that the music of it is all wrong
23:29:46 <LKoen> the sentences break at the wrong places
23:29:48 <Zarutian> boily: (basically the post with the expiry furthest into the future is displayed first, then the next furthers one and so on)
23:30:00 <boily> Zarutian: that's how it approximatively worked, plus a fortuitous implementation bug where if the first vote was an upvote, the post got catapulted up front.
23:30:57 <boily> wob_jonas: it depends on the variety of spoken French. some of them have overlong vowels.
23:31:19 <wob_jonas> wob_jonas: overlong vowels for what function? as in, which vowels are overlong?
23:36:23 <wob_jonas> In Hungarian, we have stress and some phonology clues to break sentences to words: stress is always on the first syllable of a word, consonant clusters are usually either at word boundaries or at the start of grammatical inflections or in the syllable before them (and you distinguish between these by recognizing inflections),
23:38:34 <boily> stress happens on the last syllable. vowels with circumflexes are long (that distinction is lost in Metropolitan French).
23:39:29 <boily> clusters are hard to categorize. devoiced vowels happen all the time and give a Japanese feeling to words.
23:39:34 <wob_jonas> vowels have a somewhat different distribution in different parts of the word, which can help guess boundaries, and "a" before a stressed syllable is very often an article; as a result most of the ambiguities comes from when you don't know if a consonant is starting a word or ending the previous word, even though you can tell which syllables are in
23:39:34 <wob_jonas> the same word.
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23:41:15 <wob_jonas> boily: which sort of vowels with circumflexes? the hôtel/fenêtre type that comes from etimology, the vowels in passé simple and past conditional forms, or the vowels that are circumflexed only for disambiguation like dû?
23:42:28 <boily> the etymological kind and conjugation one. circumflexes for disambiguation are pronounced the same as without.
23:43:14 <boily> although you may hear a difference between fr:à → en:to, and fr:a → en:(he/she/it) has.
23:43:28 <wob_jonas> s| dû| dû/ãge|
23:45:27 <wob_jonas> boily: difference between à and a (form of avoir)? hmm...
23:45:52 <boily> à is /æ/, and a is /ɑ/.
23:46:05 <wob_jonas> I wonder how that works
23:46:48 <boily> I think that one is dialectal only, but this is an unfounded conjecture.
23:48:08 <wob_jonas> and are other not very rare words pronounced as /æ/ too? or is /æ/ a definite clue for that one word?
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23:49:21 <boily> /æ/ is definitely à, and nothing else.
23:51:16 <boily> the [æ] sound will appear in «ma ta sa», but it'll be preceded by those clear consonants, so there's no ambiguity in there.
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23:53:42 <\oren\> the correct gender neutral pronoun is "that person".
23:53:56 <boily> \bonsoiren\.
23:54:24 <wob_jonas> Intersting.
23:55:19 <wob_jonas> Obviously spoken Hungarian is still hard enough to interpret, especially if it comes through a noisy channel, and a large part of my problem with spoken French is just that I'm not used to it.
23:55:40 <\oren\> in japanese it's sonohito which gets weirdified until it sounds almost like sonofto
23:55:51 <boily> of course, you can use contrived examples like «ma pelle m'apelle».
23:56:36 <wob_jonas> And also that reading written English or written French is easy because the grammar has a lot of similarities to Hungarian, and that's what I'm used to, whereas Hungarian doesn't help much if I try to listen to French or if I tried to learn to read Japanese or whatever.
23:57:07 <\oren\> like, you have to learn to pronounce an h at the beginning of a consonant cluster
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23:59:22 <\oren\> heppavelloin[!]
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