00:01:39 <fizzie> oerjan: The machine is not answering to me.
00:01:42 <fizzie> oerjan: I think you probably jinxed it with your talk about backups.
00:02:06 <oerjan> i blame int-e for talking about CaC being crap hth
00:07:11 <oerjan> please put an apostrophe in that word twh
00:07:55 <oerjan> in these times, people might actually mean it without
00:07:59 <lambdabot> BIRK 310000Z 08024G38KT 9999 -RA OVC035 07/02 Q0979
00:08:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 302350Z 10006KT CAVOK M03/M04 Q1019 RMK WIND 670FT 14008KT
00:08:14 <shachaf> Taneb: Good evening, Nathan.
00:08:49 <Taneb> Hmm, I sound more first namey than usual
00:10:11 <Zarutian> Taneb: what will I have told you about doing up-time-stream 'invention' of already down-time-stream 'invented' tech and items? Because I forgot.
00:10:28 <Taneb> I don't know, I'm about to go to bed
00:11:04 <quintopia> apostrphes take too much time on this kb
00:11:24 <quintopia> its like asking me to put the accent mark in pokemon
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00:13:25 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm pretty sure you did that quicker than i would
00:13:40 <Zarutian> quintopia: no tilda over the n?
00:14:10 <quintopia> oerjan: but slower than not at all
00:15:38 <Zarutian> sounds like a slavic influnced norweigan that grew up in jamica said it
00:17:14 <oerjan> some of those are not words
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00:19:25 <oerjan> no, i said some, not one
00:20:47 * Zarutian honestly doesnt see the others.
00:21:09 <oerjan> "norweigan" and "jamica".
00:23:11 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:23:27 <Zarutian> alright s/norweigan/norvegan/ and s/jamica|jamika/ ;-Þ
00:23:49 * oerjan swats Zarutian -----###
00:23:59 <lambdabot> EGLL 302350Z 10005KT 3600 -RADZ SCT005 BKN008 06/06 Q1013 TEMPO 5000 HZ SCT008 BKN010
00:24:05 <shachaf> oerjan is neithervegetarian
00:24:19 <fizzie> Our weather is five kilohertz.
00:24:38 * Zarutian notes down "xorvegan" for future reference.
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00:27:52 * Zarutian sings "all the good jam comes from jam-ika, jam-ika" while thrusting shakesticks back and forth.
00:29:34 <Zarutian> oerjan: btw as I am from Iceland and Greenland I cant be supergreen like them. (Korbin Dallas!)
00:31:01 <Zarutian> oerjan: not fan of the fifth, then, I see.
00:31:40 <oerjan> i haven't watch that many movies
00:31:57 <Zarutian> you havent seen the Fifth Element?
00:32:51 <Zarutian> Treks Across Space (and occasationally Time)?
00:33:50 <oerjan> i think i may have read the wikipedia plot synopsis
00:33:59 <Zarutian> the two last are usually known by Star Wars and StarTrek.
00:33:59 <oerjan> and then promptly forgot about it.
00:34:40 <Zarutian> You have at least seen Tron, the original movie?
00:34:56 <oerjan> i believe i have, at least on tv rerun
00:35:09 <oerjan> i have also seen some star wars and some star trek.
00:35:36 <oerjan> but only one SW movie in cinema (the empire strikes back)
00:36:03 <Zarutian> then you are not entirely buckwheetable like some Hinerians (a reference to much loved SciFi series)
00:36:32 <oerjan> is that firefly (haven't seen that either)
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00:37:07 <oerjan> oh i also saw some babylon 5 back the half year i was in the us.
00:39:53 <oerjan> Zarutian: also, because you keep misspelling things, i fail to google what you mean as well
00:40:24 <Zarutian> buckwheet is kind of corn plant.
00:40:34 <oerjan> i think there's an a in that.
00:41:08 <Zarutian> like with c I am not as sure with the difference beteen ee and ea sounds in english
00:42:08 <oerjan> ok it's probably farscape.
00:42:20 <oerjan> (which i have not seen, and barely heard of)
00:43:23 <oerjan> Zarutian: ee in ea sound the same afaik. they're just not spelled the same.
00:43:47 * oerjan gears up for muphry hunting
00:44:51 <shachaf> Cale: What should a query language for a time series database look like?
00:45:16 <Zarutian> oerjan: well, if you haddnt notic'd I write english, at least here, from how it sounds.
00:45:51 <oerjan> Zarutian: a dangerous method
00:46:05 -!- otherbot has joined.
00:46:35 <otherbot> 'im curious why this is unbroken...'
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01:16:13 <\oren\> "Pay off your credit card balance sooner", says the email from my bank, as if I would be dumb enough to keep a balance on a credit card
01:26:27 <Cale> shachaf: Haven't really given that too much thought.
01:27:01 -!- yorick_ has changed nick to yorick.
01:27:32 <Cale> "Your bill is overdue", as if I would be dumb enough to... oh shi-
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01:58:29 <izabera> where does a dog go when he loses his tail?
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02:09:10 <fizzie> 21:08:53 up 5 min, 1 user, load average: 0.06, 0.23, 0.15
02:09:28 <fizzie> Don't know if someone did something, or if it just arbitrarily recovered itself.
02:18:36 <oerjan> fizzie: bridge is down hth
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03:09:27 <\oren\> hey trump fired the acting attorney general. I guess that means they need an acting acting attorney general?
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04:15:28 * oerjan recalls the blissful days of early november when he thought all the trump talk would be over in a week
04:16:23 <oerjan> although the part of me that believes in something like dialectics had doubts.
04:16:59 <pikhq> \oren\: And the acting head of ICE.
04:20:09 <oerjan> trump only sees the top of the ICEberg
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07:01:11 <whois> is this place active?
07:02:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: brainfuck: not found
07:02:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?brainfuck: not found
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07:07:52 <whois_> is brainfuck welcome here or are people sick of it?
07:09:28 <myname> the language itself is fine
07:09:51 <myname> it's just annoying that every other person tries and fails to make it more interesting
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07:16:52 <whois_> wait... you're saying verbosefuck isn't a universally praised masterpiece?!
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07:29:44 <hppavilion> whois_: I've been threatened with a ban from the wiki
07:30:05 <hppavilion> whois_: Actually, I think verbosefuck is one of the few we're OK with, sort of.
07:30:13 <hppavilion> «https://youtu.be/BeyEGebJ1l4» raises an interesting philosophical question. It's freaking me out.
07:31:04 <whois_> i actually own an hp pavilion
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07:31:56 <whois_> power thing broke almost instantly, difficult to install linux on
07:32:05 <myname> i only use verbosefuck to tell people how i feel about java
07:32:28 <whois_> myname: fizzbuzz enterprise edition tho
07:34:27 <myname> most bf derivated are just stupid substitutions or even worse useless merges
07:35:12 <myname> somebody even made a mixup of hq9+ and bf, but because bf already uses the + you cannot use the + of hq9+
07:35:18 <myname> which does not make any sense
07:42:13 <whois_> the pavilion computers have a thinjg called secure boot
07:42:33 <whois_> that basically stops them from booting into anything but windows
07:42:44 <whois_> needs to be turned off in the bios
07:43:37 <whois_> which doen't display boot locations properly unless you get into it with a particular set f keypresses
07:46:50 <whois_> bios/uefi didn't want to work with GRUB either
07:47:35 <whois_> although that might be grub's fault
07:57:04 <whois_> also came with a bunch of preinstalled garbage iirc
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09:01:16 <ais523_> I haven't looked at it much, but fairly relevant to this channel: https://github.com/jawhitti/INTERCAL
09:01:27 <ais523_> (new INTERCAL impl, as far as I can make out, this time in .NET)
09:05:58 <fizzie> ais523_: Did I show you the INTERCAL entry the Computer History Museum had on their "evolution of programming languages" chart?
09:06:08 <fizzie> https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/32208355921/
09:06:38 <ais523_> INTERCAL is a derivative of itself?
09:07:01 <ais523_> I wanted to write an esolang that's a derivative of itself, but wasn't sure how to start
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09:10:04 <fizzie> I guess that's a bit like the bootstrapping problem for a self-hosted language, except trickier.
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09:14:42 <b_jonas> ais523_: the easiest way to do that would be to write two programming languages, one a derivative of the other, but give them the same name and thoroughly confuse them in all documentation
09:15:17 <ais523_> arguably that happens with most languages which release a new major version but don't use a version number for it
09:15:27 <ais523_> but I don't think that would be a self-derivative, merely two languaes which were conflated
09:15:42 <ais523_> I guess you could call Snowflake a derivative of itself, at least once there's a working interp and someone tries to run it
09:15:53 <b_jonas> or with the frocking character encodings like cp1250 or MacRoman that get characters added or even changed without renaming them
09:21:12 <ais523_> I should write a Snowflake interp one day
09:21:19 <ais523_> it's the closest a nontrivial language of mine is to being art
09:21:36 <ais523_> but seeing it working in practice (if it does indeed work) would make the point much better
09:21:45 <ais523_> there might be some fundamental issue preventing TCness, for example
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09:38:49 <shachaf> i,i INTEGRAL is a derivative of itself
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11:25:07 <myname> what was that language that was lambda calculus without lambda?
11:26:02 <shachaf> There are lots of things you could describe that way.
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11:58:50 <b_jonas> myname: possibly unlambda?
12:19:29 <myname> underload sounds right
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13:02:26 <b_jonas> oh great, debian stretch is getting closer
13:02:33 <b_jonas> (as in, will be released "soon")
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15:44:49 <rdococ> I think they'll stretch it, b_jonas
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15:47:57 <ais523> oh well, this may be the end of this computer
15:48:07 <ais523> the laptop bag broke and it took quite a lot of physical damage
15:48:28 <ais523> it seems to be undamaged in terms of components that are vital for it to run, and the hard drive seems to work
15:48:42 <ais523> but the battery is broken, so I have to run on AC power
15:48:50 <ais523> and the screen hinge is very stiff
15:49:35 <ais523> I'm currently attempting to download Ubuntu so that I can get a new computer set up, but the Internet connection's slowness is making that hard
15:49:38 <b_jonas> ais523: reuse it as a low powered server, continuously plugged in. that's what we did with a laptop with a broken display.
15:51:22 <ais523> don't have anywhere to put it, or a continuous Internet connection for it
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15:52:45 <ais523> I'm not liking Windows 10, btw; the first noticeable issue is a failure to find Action Center in the start menu search
15:52:55 <ais523> which I thought would have been something that should clearly be included in the results
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16:00:53 <ais523> not huge, but windows-8-derived OSes have always had trouble with finding where things have got to
16:01:01 <ais523> because they're basically two different models stapeled together
16:02:58 <ais523> the metro stuff (which is called something else now because it was such a marketing disaster), and the legacy stuff
16:02:58 <ais523> and settings are in one or the other more or less at random
16:04:46 <APic> At least Win10 integrates an Ubuntu
16:05:03 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I don't like that either, how the settings are spread between the two
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16:05:55 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I don't like that either, how the settings are spread between the two
16:06:09 <b_jonas> and I also don't like the metro style settings, for the same reason I don't like the android interface: it's too easy to change a setting accidentally such that you can't undo the change, don't know what you changed, and might not even notice you've changed something
16:06:40 <b_jonas> the "Ok" and "Cancel" and "Apply" buttons are there in the windows style settings for a good reason
16:07:21 <ais523> I think OK / Undo is also a viable setup
16:07:48 <ais523> (showing as just "Cancel" if there are no modifications)
16:08:44 <b_jonas> though there's some of this problem in windows even before the metro style was introduced: the most famous one being accidentally moving files in the file explorer by dragging
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16:10:13 <b_jonas> though there's some of this problem in windows even before the metro style was introduced: the most famous one being accidentally moving files in the file explorer by dragging
16:11:21 <ais523> I know there are versions of Windows where that has a confirm
16:12:13 <b_jonas> when exactly did that get removed? is it only in windows 10?
16:12:29 <b_jonas> and now I wonder if there's some well hidden way to turn the confirm promt back on
16:13:03 <b_jonas> ah, apparently it was changed some time between windows 7 and windows 10
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16:16:35 <b_jonas> doing an internet search. I found pointers to two workarounds that probably hurt more than help.
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16:18:57 <ais523> this is not a good time to have an unreliable connection
16:19:28 <ais523> and apparently wget has a bug that makes it delete its partial progress sometimes
16:21:42 <b_jonas> ais523: I did use curl once to download from a server that unexpectedly broke the tcp connection each time after transmitting fifty megabytes or something. I don't remember the size, but it was some fixed sized, reproducible.
16:22:32 <ais523> just overheard in my office: "what is a monad?"
16:22:47 <b_jonas> repeatedly called curl to continue download using HTTP range gets
16:22:57 <ais523> although apparently it was in the category-theory context so it may be easier to explain than normal
16:23:51 <ais523> that's documented as "automatically figure out an appropriate range get"
16:24:15 <b_jonas> breaks every 124 megabytes
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16:25:59 <b_jonas> ais523: note that the curl executable has nice exit codes telling what the error was,
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16:26:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I used -C - . note that the curl executable has documented nice exit codes telling what the error was.
16:28:02 <b_jonas> I retry on exit codes 7, 56, 6, 18, but you'd have to check the manual to tell if that's appropriate in your case
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16:39:12 <b_jonas> Linux question. The kernel knows that a process was started setuid, with different effective and real uid, even after if it's setuid root and calls setuid to drop all root permissions, and in that case it doesn't allow the process to core dump or get ptraced. From a library linked into the process, how do I query whether the process is like that, so eg. it can ignore env-vars in that case?
16:40:05 <b_jonas> I guess I should look that up in the source code of ncurses, since it has to do that.
16:40:48 <ais523> b_jonas: prctl(PR_GET_DUMPABLE) would be my guess
16:41:18 <ais523> but it doesn't hae an exact 1:1 correlation with what you want
16:42:09 <b_jonas> I didn't tell what exactly I want, since setgid also matters
16:42:18 <b_jonas> and maybe other things matter too
16:42:29 <b_jonas> I want to know when not to trust the settings a user can set
16:42:35 <ais523> if no suidy stuff has happened yet, it has the value 1
16:43:12 <ais523> if suidy stuff /has/ happened, it has a root-configurable value; 1 is a debug mode in which doing random stuff to suid programs is allowed, 0 is the default safe value, and 2 is an obsolete setting that's somewhere in between
16:43:45 <b_jonas> yes, prctl(PR_GET_DUMPABLE) seems like the right call
16:44:23 <ais523> I guess if you get a return of 1, either nothing suidy has happened or you're on a system whose owner has opted into insecure uses of suid
16:44:27 <b_jonas> well, these days linuxes are sometimes configured such that you can ptrace any process
16:44:52 <b_jonas> can't ptrace any process, not even your non-setuid ones
16:44:58 <ais523> on Ubuntu you can only ptrace a child process, or a process that has opted in, even if UID is shared
16:45:23 <ais523> you can change the default setting in /etc somewhere (this gets copied onto the relevant /proc or /sys knob, I forget which, at boot)
16:49:40 <b_jonas> I'm not ashamed I didn't know about this one. prctl is one of those obscure syscalls I barely know exist, and sort of thought most of the time only libc has reasons to call it, like sysconf, except that one isn't even a syscall or a syscall wrapper, but something stranger than that.
16:51:28 <b_jonas> (It reads key-value pairs from the top of the initial stack segment, same place where the ELF ABI stores the character data for argv and envp.)
16:52:56 <b_jonas> s/libc/libc and some very nonportable executables like dosbox/
16:57:57 <b_jonas> sysconf reads values that you can practically regard as constants, unless you run the compiled ELF program on a completely different brand of unix, in which case usually something else breaks way before those constants
17:02:09 <ais523> oh, prctl is pretty much the first thing I check for that sort of question
17:02:13 <ais523> it's like ioctl for processes
17:02:23 <ais523> (which is presumably where the name comes from)
17:03:11 <ais523> b_jonas: well one of the values in auxv is a random number intended to be used for ASLR
17:03:11 <ais523> (that could potentially cause problems for Web of Lies, I haven't taken steps to zero it yet)
17:05:17 <b_jonas> zero it? don't you just unmap that stack segment?
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17:18:26 <ais523> b_jonas: auxv? I don't think so, it's probably fairly important?
17:18:36 <ais523> I think half the information there is needed for, say, ldd to work
17:28:10 <\oren\> I rooted out hat I think is the last bug
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17:29:27 <\oren\> if you have a suitable font that supports braille you can get a large version of many unicode characters
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17:36:26 <\oren\> Hooray, corporate sent us cake!
17:38:26 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
17:39:24 <\oren\> I wonder if they actually sent it all the way from santa clara to toronto or if they just ordered one from a bakery in toronto
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17:49:03 <Perenelle> Ugh my registrar command is to slow for freenode uwu
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18:43:47 <\oren\> ８７歳女性に下半身を露出容疑 ７５歳「むらっとした」
18:43:53 <\oren\> 75 year old man arrested for exposing his dick to a 87 year old woman
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19:01:55 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy29DXeP0Qk
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19:24:07 <oerjan> hm, looks better in irssi than in the logs
19:24:25 <oerjan> (the space doesn't have the same width as the braille, there)
19:27:03 <myname> interesting. it looks crap on my tablet but reasonable on my smartphone
19:28:27 <int-e> I think it would look better like this.
19:29:19 <int-e> (I don't like oren's font)
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20:39:32 <ais523> well, this is the new computer
20:39:46 <ais523> everything seems to be working except that I'm still getting used to the touchpad placement
20:39:51 <ais523> currently transferring the files over
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20:46:12 <ais523> the other thing I'm getting used to is that PgUp/PgDn/Home/End are in a different relative order in this laptop
21:03:06 <shachaf> At least you have those keys. On my laptop they're Fn+arrows.
21:03:28 <myname> fn+arrows is love iff you have a right fn
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21:05:52 <ais523> shachaf: I actually chose this one over another laptop because the other laptop didn't have an end key
21:05:57 <ais523> (although it did have home, pgup and pgdn)
21:06:08 <ais523> I'm not quite sure how you manage that
21:08:29 <shachaf> What was the other laptop?
21:09:21 <fizzie> My non-laptop keyboard follows that one weird fad where the insert/delete keys have been replaced with one big delete key, and the insert pushed up to where print screen used to be.
21:11:16 <int-e> fizzie: hmm, I cannot say what I'd need the insert key for, so that might work for me
21:11:36 <fizzie> They're not exactly keys I use much, it's just weird.
21:11:49 <int-e> (that's a bit of a lie, I use the overwrite mode in editors once per fortnight or so)
21:11:56 <fizzie> I didn't find the del key especially hard to hit.
21:12:22 <shachaf> The fad where all keyboards have caps lock keys is scow.
21:12:25 <int-e> but misplacing pgup and pgdn would be horrible.
21:12:36 <fizzie> shachaf: My laptop doesn't.
21:12:52 <int-e> shachaf: well it's fine now that it acts as the main window manager key
21:13:04 <int-e> and some people map it to ESC for vi(m).
21:13:09 <fizzie> You double-tap left shift, and then a little green led lights up to denote caps lock.
21:13:21 <fizzie> I know people put control there.
21:14:09 <fizzie> Then again, the laptop is extra-weird. Where you would normally have caps lock, it has a split [Home|End] key.
21:15:07 <fizzie> Many of these things might work fine if they were available consistently on all keyboards, but I can never remember to use any keyboard-exclusive things.
21:20:04 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC4nBBwJtL4
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22:51:55 <\oren\> did you know that a command line can't be longer than 128 kilobytes?
22:52:08 <\oren\> well, it differs by system
22:52:47 <\oren\> the point is i'm running up against the limit of how long a shell command is allowed to be
22:53:10 <krok_> lol, what are you doing that's causing this to be an issue?
22:53:27 <\oren\> passing a lot of filenames to a command
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23:05:41 <boily> how goes the font?
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23:07:08 <\oren\> boily: I'm still working on kanji, but I now have support for cree
23:07:43 <\oren\> ᐀ᐁᐂᐃᐄᐅᐆᐇᐈᐉᐊᐋᐌᐍᐎᐏᐐᐑᐒᐓᐔᐕᐖᐗᐘᐙᐚᐛᐜᐝ
23:07:46 <\oren\> ᐞᐟᐠᐡᐢᐣᐤᐥᐦᐧᐨᐩᐪᐫᐬᐭᐮᐯᐰᐱᐲᐳᐴᐵᐶᐷᐸᐹᐺᐻᐼᐽᐾᐿᑀᑁᑂᑃᑄᑅᑆᑇᑈᑉᑊᑋᑌᑍᑎᑏᑐᑑᑒᑓᑔᑕᑖᑗᑘᑙᑚᑛᑜᑝ
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23:07:50 <\oren\> ᑞᑟᑠᑡᑢᑣᑤᑥᑦᑧᑨᑩᑪᑫᑬᑭᑮᑯᑰᑱᑲᑳᑴᑵᑶᑷᑸᑹᑺᑻᑼᑽᑾᑿᒀᒁᒂᒃᒄᒅᒆᒇᒈᒉᒊᒋᒌᒍᒎᒏᒐᒑᒒᒓᒔᒕᒖᒗᒘᒙᒚᒛᒜᒝ
23:07:54 <\oren\> ᒞᒟᒠᒡᒢᒣᒤᒥᒦᒧᒨᒩᒪᒫᒬᒭᒮᒯᒰᒱᒲᒳᒴᒵᒶᒷᒸᒹᒺᒻᒼᒽᒾᒿᓀᓁᓂᓃᓄᓅᓆᓇᓈᓉᓊᓋᓌᓍᓎᓏᓐᓑᓒᓓᓔᓕᓖᓗᓘᓙᓚᓛᓜᓝ
23:07:58 <\oren\> ᓞᓟᓠᓡᓢᓣᓤᓥᓦᓧᓨᓩᓪᓫᓬᓭᓮᓯᓰᓱᓲᓳᓴᓵᓶᓷᓸᓹᓺᓻᓼᓽᓾᓿᔀᔁᔂᔃᔄᔅᔆᔇᔈᔉᔊᔋᔌᔍᔎᔏᔐᔑᔒᔓᔔᔕᔖᔗᔘᔙᔚᔛᔜᔝ
23:08:02 <\oren\> ᔞᔟᔠᔡᔢᔣᔤᔥᔦᔧᔨᔩᔪᔫᔬᔭᔮᔯᔰᔱᔲᔳᔴᔵᔶᔷᔸᔹᔺᔻᔼᔽ
23:10:23 <shachaf> fizzie: Speaking of linkers, there's some feature missing from gold that I wanted to use once.
23:10:56 <shachaf> I think it was inserting the section start and size or something like that.
23:11:22 <fizzie> I think something like that has been discussed on the channel too.
23:11:28 <shachaf> It's sort of undocumented in GNU ld so maybe I shouldn't blame them.
23:11:36 <fizzie> Speaking of things, I had a funny story about Bazel.
23:12:54 <fizzie> It's one of those stories where things go more wrong while you keep trying to solve them. I think there's an xkcd with a similar plot.
23:13:51 <fizzie> Except a little more modest.
23:15:33 <shachaf> are you going to tell the funny story twh
23:16:37 <fizzie> I gave it too much hype, and now it'd be just a disappointment. Also come to think of it, it's more about the Android Studio with Bazel plugin.
23:16:48 <fizzie> Guess I might as well.
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23:17:56 <fizzie> The first step was that all external dependencies from the WORKSPACE file stopped resolving in Android Studio, so all Guava classes got red squiggly lines, and "com.google: package does not exist" errors, and things like that.
23:18:16 <fizzie> I screwed this up already.
23:18:21 <fizzie> That was actually the second step.
23:18:44 <fizzie> The first step was that the ASwB plugin wanted to update, and I let it. External dependencies not resolving was just the consequence of that.
23:19:30 <fizzie> Anyway, I went to browse the webs, noticed the plugin's source mentioned Android Studio 2.3b2, so I went ahead and updated that as well.
23:19:54 <fizzie> That made all Android resources stop resolving as well, so now "R.id.foo" references got red squiggly lines as well.
23:20:47 <fizzie> To fix *that*, I thought I'd re-import the project entirely.
23:21:02 <fizzie> ...which led to: "Project view validation failed, but we couldn't find an error message. Please report a bug."
23:21:10 <fizzie> And then I had no project. The end.
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23:58:41 <shachaf> fizzie: That's pretty good.
23:59:35 * boily hugs his Eclipse and takes care of it