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00:43:55 <HackEgo> category-helpdesk//category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it.
00:44:36 <boily> alercah: hellorcah. I got on the receiving end of an oya yakuman today. ow.
00:44:55 <boily> (giving, maybe? burning end? business end?)
00:45:57 <oerjan> `le/rn oya yakuman//We don't know what an oya yakuman is, but based on boily's reaction, it must be quite painful.
00:46:01 <HackEgo> Learned 'oya yakuman': We don't know what an oya yakuman is, but based on boily's reaction, it must be quite painful.
00:46:36 <boily> I was aiming for riichi tan pin iipeikou dora, nothing fancy, and that guy pao'd me on a chinroutou.
00:46:41 <boily> east one, bust, new game!
00:46:55 * boily sighs in despair and curses the usual divinities
00:46:57 <alercah> wait how do you pao chinroutou?
00:47:13 <oerjan> boily: you know, if i hadn't known, i'd have assumed you were doing some fancy martial arts.
00:47:37 <boily> that's the thing, we weren't sure about pao on that, so we just assumed complete responsibility and that was it.
00:47:48 <boily> I mean, better a swift death than a prolonged one, eh?
00:48:10 <alercah> there's no pao on chinroutou because it's not guaranteed, even after four calls
00:48:27 <alercah> pao is only for when you guarantee yakuman
00:48:42 <alercah> (also sometimes for dealing into a daiminkan rinshan tsumo)
00:48:44 <boily> yeah. we checked afterwads to make sure, and no pao on that.
00:49:04 <int-e> wee I made a lucky guess and got the game correct
00:56:22 <boily> shuffling tiles is fun!
00:56:51 <alercah> haven't been doing enough of it
01:30:29 <HackEgo> spork//A spork is something to be randomly held in front of penguins.
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01:37:18 * oerjan wonders what that's a reference to.
01:38:30 <lambdabot> http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/katy-t3h-pengu1n-of-d00m
01:38:30 <lambdabot> Title: Katy t3h PeNgU1N oF d00m | Know Your Meme
01:38:32 * oerjan finds an ominously looking penguin wielding one, but that seems backwards.
01:42:43 <oerjan> oh hm i guess "held in front of" doesn't necessarily imply that it's not the penguin holding it.
01:42:54 <oerjan> also that site uses way too much cpu.
01:43:43 <oerjan> although i guess i was unlucky the first time and got a broken ad.
01:45:05 <oerjan> <diginet> A modal logic programming language would be col <-- i think haskell's monads may count in the curry-howard sense.
01:47:07 <oerjan> <shachaf> he has that effect on people hth <-- wat.
01:47:24 <boily> who, what, why, when, how, dequossé?
01:47:42 <shachaf> oerjan: I had to look up the context to remember.
01:47:57 <shachaf> The effect making people feel like they're letting you down.
01:48:24 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: I had to look up the context to remember. <-- i think you've earned that.
01:48:49 <shachaf> I feel like I'm letting you down by not remembering it.
01:48:54 <oerjan> shachaf: that's absurd for a person as lazy as i am.
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01:51:14 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: More generally, you have F(A and B) = F(A) and F(B) vs. F(A or B) = F(A) and F(B) <-- don't remember, although the first is obviously some kind of homomorphism and the second dual to it
01:52:28 <shachaf> Of course s/and/intersection/ and s/or/union/
01:53:05 <shachaf> What has the property F(A union B) = F(A) union F(B)?
01:53:16 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuratowski_closure_axioms at least.
01:54:05 <oerjan> hm is kuratowski closure a monad.
01:55:24 <shachaf> A U cl(A) U cl(cl(A)) = cl(A U B) \ cl(ø)
01:56:07 <shachaf> A U cl(A) U cl(cl(B)) = cl(A U B) \ cl(ø)
01:56:25 <oerjan> is that some kind of 1-axiom summary
01:57:57 <shachaf> Closure operators in general are monads, aren't they?
02:02:57 <oerjan> A <= cl(A), cl(A) <= cl(A U B), cl(cl(B)) <= cl(B) follow immediately. then cl(ø)=ø, then cl(A) U cl(B) = cl(A U B).
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02:06:51 <alercah> this smells like matroids to me
02:07:52 <oerjan> alercah: no, just topology
02:07:53 <shachaf> I don't know about matroids but apparently closure operators are involved.
02:08:09 <alercah> oerjan: oh that's less interesting
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02:08:25 <shachaf> oerjan: I do like the alternative axiom for closure operators.
02:08:26 <HackEgo> Topology is another name for topos theory.
02:08:40 <shachaf> x <= cl(y) iff cl(x) <= cl(y)
02:09:51 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to remember that there's a service to register domains that centers itself on privacy, but I can't remember what it is...
02:10:05 <shachaf> sounds like they're doing good work
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02:29:08 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: Gandhi keeps nuking me
02:29:09 <oerjan> shachaf: that alternative doesn't seem to disallow cl(A) = X for all A <= X.
02:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That's only if you don't allow alternative facts
02:29:39 <shachaf> oerjan: This is for closure operators, not Kuratowski closure operators.
02:30:03 * oerjan sidles back under rock
02:30:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: WHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOPWHOOP I assume?
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02:32:22 <oerjan> did he spend much time under rocks? i've seen very little futurama.
02:33:45 <boily> oerjan is neither Zoidberg, nor Taneb hth
02:37:57 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va9GbB-Meok&t=3577s
02:42:41 <hppavilion[1]> `learn Zoidberg is almost definitely a distinct entity from oerjan (p = .02)
02:42:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'zoidberg': Zoidberg is almost definitely a distinct entity from oerjan (p = .02)
02:43:00 <HackEgo> Your omnipheasant principal witty arrant darth oerjan the indecisive is a hazy expert in merry compaction. Also a Glaneep who disses Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He twice punned without noticing it.
02:43:04 <HackEgo> \oren\ is an attempt to improve upon oren. The only thing it actually improved was name recognizability, and it made everything else... unenthickenable, eh?
02:43:24 <HackEgo> œrjan is oerjan and ørjan's superhero third cousin (once removed) from Québec. He got his cheesy powers by falling into a giant poutine bowl.
02:44:54 <HackEgo> Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it.
02:46:43 <oerjan> `slwd zoidberg//s,$,.,
02:46:45 <HackEgo> zoidberg//Zoidberg is almost definitely a distinct entity from oerjan (p = .02).
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02:48:12 <shachaf> There are enough of those.
02:48:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ʔ: not found
02:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> (clearly, `ʔ should return the same as `?, but with a bunch of apostrophe'es mixed in)
02:49:45 <shachaf> It should return the same thing as `?, but with all dots removed.
02:50:37 <hppavilion[1]> Which bad scifi writers like to use in alien languages, and represent by generously sprin'kling in apostrophes
02:50:49 <shachaf> And English speakers usually don't pronounce glottal stops for some reason.
02:51:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo '`'"$topic" | sed 's/^`\(`\|$\)//') \ topic2=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic2"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic
02:51:23 <HackEgo> https://hackego.esolangs.org/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%3F
02:51:48 <HackEgo> cp: missing destination file operand after ‘bin/? bin/ʔ’ \ Try 'cp --help' for more information.
02:52:21 <shachaf> There's no need to copy it to make this happen.
02:52:36 <shachaf> Moreover there's no real need for `ʔ to exist in the first place.
02:52:48 <shachaf> But if you want to make it, make bin/dedot and spend a while figuring out what it needs to do.
02:53:02 <HackEgo> cat: bin/lowercase2: No such file or directory
02:53:06 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ print_args_or_input "$@" | tr A-Z a-z | LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 sed 'y/ØÅÆŒÞÐÄÖÜÁÉÍÓÚÝŁ/øåæœþðäöüáéíóúýł/'
02:53:18 <shachaf> (Remove combining characters, convert i to ı, etc.)
02:53:39 <shachaf> But really it needn't exist at all.
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03:13:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i moved lowercase2 to lowercase
03:14:17 <oerjan> there was only one wisdom affected, and it seemed suitably ironic for it to be so
03:15:08 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/Å: No such file or directory
03:15:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think I proposed making `? so it would case-sensitively search before normalizing.
03:15:24 <HackEgo> 10657:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5} \ 5303:2015-04-09 <Tanëb> learn \xc3\x85 _is_ a village in Norway, unless you\'re the BBC and don\'t understand things on top of letters.
03:15:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i know, but i dislike that idea.
03:15:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Also, lowercase2 still doesn't support exempli gråtiå Greek letters
03:19:35 <HackEgo> 10657:2017-04-13 <oerjän> ` cd wisdom; mv {\xc3\x85,\xc3\xa5} \ 5304:2015-04-10 <oerjän> learn \xc3\xa5 is the same letter as \xc3\x85, unless you\'re HackEgo and don\'t understand things on top of letters.
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03:27:59 <\oren\> https://youtu.be/5s8WlXgxtVc
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10:24:03 * rdococ is working on an image rotation algorithm
10:24:37 * Nistur wants to be working on an IF engine
10:26:16 <zzo38> A image rotation algorithm that is a single public domain C code I can include in my "Farbfeld Utilities" package
10:26:30 * Nistur is, instead, arguing with a horribly convoluted AI system -_-
10:26:44 <zzo38> What IF engine and what AI system, is that?
10:27:02 <Nistur> I will answer the second question first
10:27:25 <rdococ> At the moment though, it just seems to output a blurred version of the nearest neighbor algorithm.
10:28:12 <Nistur> the AI system some idiot *cough*me*cough* wrote to control the enemies in this game I'm working on. The studio I work for hasn't announced it yet so I cannot comment too much, but as the studio only makes VR games, it's fairly safe to say it's a VR title
10:28:34 <rdococ> (Actually, it utilizes a transformation that results in a smaller image which must be upscaled. Still odd how it looks blurry, though.)
10:28:48 <rdococ> (Since I haven't gotten to work on a new scaling algorithm yet.)
10:28:55 <zzo38> rdococ: Well, let to see once you fixed it
10:29:06 <Nistur> the IF engine is one I'll write from scratch because I have some stupid idea to make a 3D point and click adventure... which seems the logical jump, right? 3D adventure -> IF
10:30:10 <rdococ> Apparently what I did was accidentally create the nearest neighbor interpolation in a complicated way.
10:30:14 <zzo38> One VM for IF system is TAVERN; currently there is not the extension for point and click adventure but it is one of the extensions I intended to add too, actually
10:30:43 <Nistur> the reason for the jump is that I am being stingy and don't want to pay for art on a project which may not see the light of day... and I cannot art. Even my programmer art is terrible. So my _plan_ is to write an IF engine, and implement at least part of my story and puzzles in that... then start adding features so I could use the same game data to run both IF and point and click adventure games
10:30:55 <Nistur> (the IF obviously not using all the data...)
10:31:07 <Nistur> ... I like writing my own wheels
10:51:43 * rdococ accidentally rebuilt a wheel using only cushions
10:51:50 <rdococ> metaphorically of course
10:52:37 <oerjan> sounds like a soft ride
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10:58:25 <rdococ> maybe I should use a platform other than javascript for my experiments into image scaling
10:59:02 <rdococ> Javascript is kinda dumb anyway.
10:59:24 <zzo38> There are a lot of other choices
11:00:39 <Nistur> I would probably write it in C... but I guess python would be a 'standard' response
11:00:45 <Nistur> go is picking up popularity
11:01:24 <Nistur> alternatively, write it in verilog
11:07:21 <oerjan> sounds a bit circuitous.
11:08:19 <oerjan> OCTAVE is the free variant, i hear
11:10:06 <oerjan> no, k is an apl derivative hth
11:16:13 <rdococ> some packages could not be retrieved from the servers?
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11:42:32 <rdococ> SMITH is an assembly-like language that modifies itself. It might go together well with the Khartridge.
11:52:00 <rdococ> I was thinking about designing an esolang with first-class continuations.
12:06:59 <HackEgo> esrb//ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard
12:07:22 <boily> `le/rn esrb//Eric Steven Raymond's Beard
12:07:24 <HackEgo> Relearned 'esrb': Eric Steven Raymond's Beard
12:07:57 <HackEgo> second wisdom//The second wisdom is that wisdom can never be complete or consistent.
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12:17:16 <HackEgo> chthonic//Chthonic lithping can be vethy dithturbing to lithten to.
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13:14:07 <rdococ> Well, I've somehow ended up designing my own map projection.
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15:58:21 <rdococ> . o O ( an esoteric image format )
15:59:33 <FireFly> somewhat tangental, I did come up with a bitmap font format where the font is stored as an image
15:59:40 <FireFly> mostly because it was easiest to edit for me
16:00:03 <FireFly> one that supports variable glyph width
16:05:00 <rdococ> what about modifier characters?
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16:09:07 <rdococ> I'd think about Fourier transformations but I think JPEG has that already
16:13:05 <rdococ> We're not restricted to compressing raster images. We could compress a vector image, for example.
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17:27:07 <\oren\> rdococ: the image format my prototype font editor uses might qualify
17:27:35 <\oren\> It stores an image as an array of integers, one for each scanline
17:27:57 <\oren\> so it supports a maximum width of 32 pixels
17:28:16 <\oren\> and only white and black
17:28:34 <\oren\> but there isn't any limit to the image's height
17:28:41 <rdococ> it's in clear black and white
17:28:54 <rdococ> but what about modifier characters?
17:29:33 <\oren\> actually is that the right grammer? overlain? overlayed?
17:29:38 <rdococ> how do modifier characters work in your prototype font editor?
17:30:42 <\oren\> the same as regualr ones
17:31:16 <\oren\> right now the editor sdoesn't have an actual interface yet
17:31:46 <\oren\> once I finish it I'll put it on my website
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17:35:17 <rdococ> has anyone tried combining bicubic interpolation with nearest neighbor interpolation?
17:36:25 <rdococ> take an image, calculate bicubic interpolation but each pixel takes on the color of its largest influence
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17:45:47 <rdococ> Polygonal vector graphics, maybe, where only flat-sided polygons can be created
17:50:47 <rdococ> Or, a spherical image format where each normalized 3D vector maps to a color.
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18:07:03 <rdococ> I'm working on a specification for a spherical image format, but haven't gone very far yet.
18:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Why spherical and not general 2-manifolds?
18:07:49 <rdococ> I was thinking about extending it to any 3D topology.
18:08:29 <rdococ> Oh. In that case, I mean 2D.
18:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> (Definition: a goxel is any generalized voxel in arbitrarily-many dimensions)
18:09:01 <rdococ> I was speaking about what most people call 3D shapes.
18:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yeah, it'd usually be in 3-space, but it'd be a 2-manifold unless it had dimensions to it.
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18:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Also a good idea: Animated vector graphics (VIF)
18:09:39 <rdococ> Of course, we could expand it to any dimension.
18:10:13 <rdococ> This reminds me of an idea I had for interpolating low FPS video.
18:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure how they could, but I'm not ruling it out
18:15:02 <rdococ> What else should a spherical image format include?
18:17:20 <rdococ> Additionally, what would a 2-manifold with a quaternion coordinate system look like?
18:17:52 <rdococ> Ah, wait, that's obvious (I think) - a 3-sphere.
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18:24:26 <rdococ> I'll probably also pick or create an equally spherical color model (one based on the 3-sphere, or quaternion coordinates, maybe).
18:28:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Technically, I don't think manifolds *have* fixed coordinates?
18:29:14 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: I still imagine you would be able to create coordinate systems for them.
18:29:35 <rdococ> I'm thinking about two-holed toruses right now.
18:31:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I wonder if there are color spaces that cover larger EM intervals
18:31:55 <rdococ> Well, you could think of the RGB color model as normalized coordinates on a sphere plus a luminance value.
18:32:54 <rdococ> HSL coordinates might be representable using quaternions.
18:33:10 <rdococ> Yeah, they probably would.
18:36:17 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Octarine, of course, has the RGB code ~rgb(0, 0.866+0.5i, 0.866+0.5i)
18:37:32 <rdococ> Ooh, imaginary colors.
18:37:40 <zzo38> I don't know what one
18:37:41 <rdococ> Or, in this case, complex colors. :P
18:38:25 <rdococ> One more thought: is there a fractional dimension with exactly 2 planes of rotation?
18:38:46 <zzo38> I don't know that either
18:43:29 <rdococ> Interestingly, dimension n has the nth triangle number of planes of rotation.
18:47:19 <rdococ> Found the dimension for 2 planes of rotation.
18:53:16 <rdococ> Still not sure about how to approach coordinate systems for genus-n surfaces, though.
18:56:32 <\oren\> well, a coordinates sytem is the same as a diffeomorphism to/from R^n
18:57:59 <\oren\> there are manifolds that can't be mapped smoothly with one chart
18:58:53 <rdococ> A good coordinate system for a sphere's surface would be normalized 3D coordinates.
18:58:58 <rdococ> That's what my SIF file format uses.
18:59:06 <\oren\> But actually, a torus can be mapped smoothly, which is why the world is a torus in a lot of games
18:59:23 <rdococ> A torus' surface can easily be mapped with 2D coordinates.
18:59:31 <\oren\> rdococ: right, you can use three coordinates to get a smooth map
18:59:52 <rdococ> I'm still trying to figure out what the best coordinate system for a genus-two surface would be.
19:01:03 <rdococ> You could interpret the two coordinates commonly used for toruses and convert them to normalized 3D coordinates - it would be the opposite of converting normalized quaternions into 3 dimensional vectors for better storage.
19:02:15 <rdococ> So the origin would be (0, 0, 1), the opposite point to the origin (which would be 180 degrees horizontally from it) would be (1, 0, 0), while the opposite point 180 degrees vertically would be (0, 1, 0).
19:03:36 <rdococ> If both a sphere and a torus can be mapped smoothly through a normalized 3D coordinate system, can a genus-2 surface be too?
19:17:53 <rdococ> Of course, there is a difference between the two coordinate systems. In a sphere, (0, 0, 1)'s antipodal point is (0, 0, -1). But on a torus, (0, 0, 1)'s inverse point would be (1, 0, 0).
19:18:25 <rdococ> Which reminds me of the difference between complex numbers and quaternions.
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19:50:32 <rdococ> Now I'm working on a normalized 3D coordinate system for a torus.
19:51:14 <rdococ> x = a + bi + cj, where i^2 = j^2 = -1 = 1, jii = iji = iij = j, and ijj = jij = jji = i.
20:17:06 <int-e> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR hg's "resolve" subcommand *always* trips me up
20:17:29 <int-e> why isn't there a separate command for resolve --mark
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20:20:03 <int-e> Yes. I prefer git. I'm much more familiar with git's pitfalls than with mercurial's.
20:21:03 <shachaf> I feel like I ought to prefer hg because it's probably better.
20:21:03 <int-e> (There, that should allow me to stay out of the ensuing flame war. Just give me a moment while I fetch popcorn.)
20:21:07 <shachaf> But in practice I prefer git.
20:31:51 <shachaf> Is fossil good for large repositories?
20:32:49 <zzo38> I believe it works even for large repositories. But, how large do you expect anyways?
20:33:11 <int-e> shachaf is a big fan of all-in-one-repository code management
20:33:49 <int-e> "One Big Repository"
20:34:07 <int-e> I find it outlandish.
20:34:15 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, the more certain people argue for alternatives, the more I see the light.
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20:34:27 <shachaf> It's so much better than having lots of small repositories, if you can get away with it.
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20:35:08 <zzo38> The limit is the limit of SQLite, which is 140 terabytes.
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20:35:49 <zzo38> (Assuming that the file system you are using supports files that large, and you have enough disk space.)
20:36:10 <shachaf> int-e: Why do you find it outlandish?
20:36:25 <shachaf> zzo38: Well, it should have good support for actually using the repository.
20:36:26 <int-e> shachaf: Because I'm not working at a big company with many connected software projects.
20:36:33 <shachaf> Oh, sure, then you shouldn't use it.
20:37:26 <int-e> shachaf: I think "outlandish" is the perfect adjective to describe this feeling.
20:37:53 <shachaf> Ah, I think I misinterpreted the word "outlandish" until now.
20:38:07 <zzo38> I find it is easily usable; the commands used commonly are easily enough, the installation is very simple, and there is even the server and UI included (both optional features) if you need them. (You do however need a web browser to use the UI, although you can do everything from the command-line too.)
20:38:31 <shachaf> zzo38: For example it should have support for not cloning the entire repository, but only the parts you actually need.
20:39:12 <shachaf> int-e: maybe you should go work at Google for a bit hth
20:39:18 <olsner> I don't like the one big repo idea, I prefer one small repo
20:39:31 <shachaf> olsner: Obviously that's the best option.
20:39:35 <zzo38> It doesn't seem to do that (although I have wanted that kind of stuff too), although the repository is a single file.
20:40:44 <olsner> maybe I should work for google to see if it's anything like I imagine (I have seen some of the google bizarro-world leaking through the chromium project though)
20:41:15 <zzo38> The "fossil clone" command clones a repository, from a local file, a HTTP or HTTPS server, or a SSH server.
20:42:28 <zzo38> (Note that I have never used this command, though.)
20:47:37 <int-e> shachaf: I guess https://git.gnome.org/browse/ could also be one big repo, in principle.
20:47:58 <shachaf> int-e: Did you read the ACM article Google published about it?
20:48:12 <shachaf> https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext
20:49:03 <shachaf> Many of the benefits of this model have to do with other things they do, like not version libraries.
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22:52:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQfhGNur57E
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23:12:56 <HackEgo> terminal symbol//A terminal symbol is a terminal condition that makes your parser die eventually. Consult your linguist for medical advice.
23:14:06 <shachaf> all signs point to yes^H^H^Hthe terminal symbol
23:17:29 <boily> helloochaf. nihilist 8ball.
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