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00:12:12 <HackEgo> te sting//This is horrible?
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00:43:15 <tromp> yes, boily, I play Go
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00:50:15 <zzo38> Somehow it seems that some pictures will be compressed better with PNG if a small window size is used, and some work better with larger window sizes. Do you know why?
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01:11:26 <\oren\> HEY! NEW GAME +! I love when games have new game +
01:13:08 <\oren\> I wish more games would have new game + tho
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01:14:44 <zzo38> OK, although is not something that interests me much.
01:15:33 <zzo38> I just prefer to have different options that can be set.
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01:54:56 <HackEgo> cpressey//cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse.
01:55:31 <HackEgo> 3512:2013-08-28 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/mouse/mousse/\' wisdom/cpressey \ 2973:2013-05-29 <Phantom_Hoovër> learn cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mouse. \ 2967:2013-05-28 <oerjän> learn cpressey has invented more esolangs than you can shake a stick at. Also he\'s older than the universe hth.
01:57:09 <HackEgo> 1/1:warrigal//Warrigal is #esoteric's resident dingo. It sometimes pretends to be a human. \ asternology//Asternology is the art of predicting what happened in the past. \ impomatic//impomatic never did anything weird enough to get into this database. \ heh//heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
01:57:57 <boily> Dingo dango dongo ♪
01:58:36 <boily> wait. you've been more warrigaling than tswetting lately. back to your roots?
01:59:33 <shachaf> Did you read _Mathematics Made Difficult_?
02:04:57 <izabera> https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/b7i3u/mathematics_made_difficult_pdf/
02:05:23 <shachaf> Though I think there's file smaller than 20MB with the same content.
02:11:57 <Warrigal> It's because I've temporarily switched to a different client.
02:18:05 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/math-diff-2-4.txt
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02:24:42 * hppavilion . o O ( I wonder if 'https' should be given a shorter alias- such as 'htts' or 'htps'- so that link shorteners like it more )
02:35:43 <izabera> how about using httpseverywhere
02:37:11 <zzo38> I think "https" is fine; it is not too long.
02:37:41 <zzo38> (If they wanted to write "httpsecure" then it would be too long, though)
02:38:44 <shachaf> What about "hypertexttransferprotocolsecure:"?
02:41:47 <boily> SecuredHyperDocumentElementTransferProtocolBuilderFactoryAdapter
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03:25:00 <HackEgo> mibicoin calcoin creptimisplcoin redclcoin bfinjaquatingcoin gencoin mulacoin trindcoin cablystackmildcoin bookcoin unland.nexpcoin kolmonozcoin dracoin nubinocoin stocoin pograissigcoin arbazcoin autobencecoin tfriecoin eatcoin
03:26:29 <shachaf> oh man, unicode has been jammed up
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04:46:33 <zzo38> I made up list of several new GURPS spells such as Red Shift, Blue Shift, Heavy Gravity, Seek Air, Seek Fire, Write, Smite Mages, False Aura, Delay Spell, Berserk, Vampire Transfer, Mirror Link, Feign Death, and others. Do you like this?
04:47:48 <zzo38> Yes, kind of. I will have to see if it is good enough.
05:06:37 <zzo38> I also wrote about some perks and options to allow linking spells to body part other than hands, such as bite, feet, striker, and spines. For Missile spells there is also the perks for additional options being breath attacks and gaze attacks.
05:06:43 <zzo38> And also spells that complement each other (such as Red Shift and Blue Shift); each defaults to the other at -5.
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05:38:13 <zzo38> You can write the new spell too if you have the good idea please.
05:55:59 <zzo38> I think that farbfeld is simpler than Netpbm and that Hamster archive simpler than tape archive. Isn't it?
05:57:30 <izabera> yeah that's a common complaint about netpbm
05:58:07 <zzo38> Yes, looking to me too. That is why Hunhold invented farbfeld, and why I use it.
06:05:32 <izabera> i'm assuming you also fancy their beautifully designed video format that can store a whole 113s in 100gb
06:06:22 <zzo38> You can see this document I wrote http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ffpng it list all of the options of the PNG encoder. I added some since last time too.
06:08:13 <pikhq> Some of the NetPBM features are rather *odd* for an image format, and also really easy to not implement.
06:08:24 <pikhq> For instance, the header can have comments.
06:08:28 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I know is odd
06:08:37 <pikhq> And, a single file can have multiple images in it!
06:08:56 <shachaf> sounds easy to implement if you use a c compiler hth
06:09:10 <shachaf> I'm thinking of a different format.
06:09:30 <zzo38> Yes, you can have multiple pages. I have written dvipbm which does that though; you can use it to rasterize all of the pages and then send to printer driver in order to print.
06:09:55 <izabera> shachaf: you just have to ignore everything from # to \n
06:10:28 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
06:11:23 <zzo38> (I did write my own rasterizer program to make a print out, because I did not find the ones that come with the computer to be suitable. Do you like this?)
06:17:06 <zzo38> Even the express mode of ffpng compresses better than some other PNG encoders, although not always. An option to copy chunks from another PNG file is still missing though.
06:19:02 <zzo38> Do you know if any picture compression format has options to store the picture rotated or flipped in case that would improve the compression?
06:21:11 <zzo38> PNG does sometimes compress better when the picture is rotated or flipped or mirrored.
06:21:41 <zzo38> The document of FLIF seem not completed so I cannot see if it has any such feature or not.
06:23:00 <pikhq> Huh. I've not heard of such a thing.
06:23:09 <pikhq> This could just be ignorance, but still.
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06:31:13 <HackEgo> Mr2001: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:34:15 <shachaf> Hmm, yellow looks pretty bad in Freenode webchat.
06:34:31 <shachaf> I'll have to remember to avoid relcome for those cases.
06:35:20 <HackEgo> 177) <zzo38> Maybe they should just get rid of Minecraft. If more people want it someone can make using GNU GPL v3 or later version, with different people, might improve slightly.
06:36:43 <shachaf> I played a text-based adventure game recently.
06:36:50 <shachaf> Wait, no, I was just thinking about playing one.
06:37:05 <shachaf> And then I played one or two games that involved clicking on words and were pretty linear.
06:37:52 <\oren\> Have you played VA-11 Hall-A yet? it invoves clicking on words
06:38:47 <zzo38> Make up some text adventure game using TAVERN. The standard adventure include file is not yet completed (and is hardly done) but hopefully can be done without entirely doing by myself only.
06:38:52 <shachaf> I'm not a fan of clicking.
06:39:21 <\oren\> although it also involves mixing drinks
06:39:43 <Mr2001> speaking of text adventures and esolangs, do you like this: http://inky.org/if/snap/index.html
06:42:38 <shachaf> This is HQ9+ for interactive fiction?
06:42:57 <shachaf> And also for running HQ9+ programs.
06:45:23 <shachaf> I've already written several excellent games.
06:45:29 <shachaf> I can't wait to find out what they're about.
06:45:41 <Mr2001> it really does make programming a snap!
06:46:14 <shachaf> You could make a wiki page about it on esolangs.org
06:46:37 <shachaf> It doesn't seem very interesting as a language, though.
06:47:10 <shachaf> But maybe I haven't explored it enough yet.
06:47:48 <Mr2001> ZIL is more interesting but probably doesn't fit the definition of esoteric
06:47:52 <shachaf> But maybe it's a joke with multiple levels.
06:49:20 <zzo38> ZIL seem like good. I don't know any programming in ZIL, but I do know ZAP.
06:49:26 <shachaf> And I tried Inform 7 and didn't like it.
06:49:39 <shachaf> But that was more than a decade ago, so who knows.
06:49:46 <zzo38> The new VM is TAVERN, see if you like that one?
06:50:20 <Mr2001> Inform 7 is pretty sweet. if you didn't like it then, you probably won't like it now, though.
06:50:36 <zzo38> I don't like read only programming languages such as Inform 7
06:50:43 <shachaf> Video is where it's at, if you want to maximize user engagement.
06:50:53 <Mr2001> the thing people notice most about it is that it looks like English, but IMO what makes it interesting is that it introduces new concepts that work well in the domain.
06:50:59 <shachaf> And pictures with text overlaid in Impact font.
06:51:41 <shachaf> Oh, no, I did play a text-based adventure game recently!
06:51:50 <shachaf> I can't remember what it was called. It was very short, and it had a ghost.
06:51:54 <Mr2001> relations, object description expressions, scenes, rulebooks
06:51:59 <shachaf> It was an entry to a competition.
06:52:18 <zzo38> I have written a few Z-machine implementations including ZORKMID and JSZM, and started writing one for Famicom. However, there are probably some things I should rewrite, such as maybe the instruction dispatch loop should be put into the zero page to use self-modifying codes.
06:52:26 <shachaf> Maybe you know the one I mean?
06:52:29 <zzo38> (This implementation for Famicom is called Famizork)
06:52:35 <zzo38> Do you know any Famicom programming?
06:53:56 <shachaf> Mr2001: I only recently realized about Spider and Web that gur ernfba lbh pna'g fnl "gnatb" hagvy gur evtug zbzrag vf gung gur ibvpr zbqhyr vfa'g ba gur gnoyr hagvy gung zbzrag.
06:54:03 <shachaf> It should have been obvious in retrospect.
06:54:16 <shachaf> (Don't read if you haven't played the game, I guess.)
06:54:17 <Mr2001> so you might see a statement like "if an evil man (called the villain) carries a weapon (called the sidearm) that contains at least 6 unused bullets, ...", which searches the world model for such a set of related objects and captures them in variables
06:55:16 <shachaf> Do you think these abstractions merit a new language?
06:55:48 <Mr2001> well, the goal was to make writing IF more like writing a story and less like writing a program
06:55:58 <shachaf> One thing I've wondered about is what a language that could be used on cards in a game like Magic: The Gathering would be like.
06:56:15 <zzo38> I have thought of stuff about Magic: the Gathering like that too.
06:56:28 <shachaf> I don't care about it being like English -- in fact I'd prefer not, though you can generate English text from it -- but it would need to be a very odd language to support the sorts of things Magic: The Gathering cards do.
06:56:35 <shachaf> Any card can change pretty much anything.
06:56:49 <Mr2001> rulebooks are pretty good for that
06:56:52 <zzo38> One thing I thought is to use a AST that might look something like: [:counter [:target :spell]]
06:56:57 <Mr2001> I started porting Fluxx to I7 once
06:57:11 <shachaf> (It doesn't have to be exactly that game -- I think you can simplify it significantly if you're willing to break backwards compatibility and have less complicated but still interesting interactions.)
06:58:40 <zzo38> What I thought of is to invent a new literate programming language for writing the rules, and then write the rules using that in a mathematically precise way.
06:58:42 <Mr2001> a rulebook is basically an array of functions that are sorted through some complex and overrideable logic at compile time, that can each have conditions that check whether they apply to the current situation, and can change the state for future rules or exit the rulebook with some outcome
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06:59:52 <zzo38> (This is the use of literate programming; you can now make a book to write the rules of the game, which is the same book as the program which is the implementation, which make rules more clearly.)
07:01:04 <Mr2001> so for MtG, you might have a rulebook for each phase of the turn (or probably some finer grain), and the definition of each card could contribute rules to various rulebooks and define any ordering relationships
07:01:59 <shachaf> I haven't played that game in a while. I'm not up to date on all the latest innovations.
07:02:45 <zzo38> I had other ideas about rewriting rules of Magic: the Gathering though anyways, including concept of "persistent properties", which include initial text, owner, and kind. Text is meaning the AST.
07:03:13 <HackEgo> 1/2:freefull//FreeFull the Unpronounceable is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure. \ syntax//Syntax is just a subset of grammar. \ yorick//We know nothing about yorick, alas. \ welp//welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes. \ ol//OL stands for Origina
07:03:18 <HackEgo> 2/2:l Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
07:03:27 <zzo38> Mr2001: Do you know any Famicom programming?
07:03:55 <shachaf> Famicom is approximately NES, right?
07:04:06 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it uses the same chipset.
07:04:25 <HackEgo> 1/2:glados//Hello, and again, welcome to the Aperture Science Computer Aided Internet Relay Chat & Enrichment Center. Please enjoy your stay at #esoteric, because you will never leave. \ piet//Piet is a really colourful programming language. \ of//Of this incident we shall never speak again. \ tanstaaha//tanstaaha, so plea
07:04:29 <HackEgo> 2/2:se stop using them. That would help. \ rntz//rntz is a classically-trained logician known for his constructive criticism.
07:04:56 <zzo38> You can see http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/ it is a copy of the official rules of Magic: the Gathering; they also have on there all of the changes to the rules since Ravnica.
07:05:06 <zzo38> So you can see what has been changed each time.
07:05:17 <shachaf> I didn't play in Ravnica. I first started playing in Return to Ravnica.
07:05:35 <zzo38> Since some time ago, I have looked at every change.
07:05:38 <HackEgo> Ravnica: City of Guilds is a city of guilds. “City of Guilds” is part of its name. The Wizards of the Coast Marketing Department: We Sell Anything thought players might not notice it was a City of Guilds unless they put the tagline into the name.
07:05:41 <zzo38> shachaf: They have that too.
07:06:28 <zzo38> You can see on http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/ the lists of all changes between any version and the previous version.
07:06:57 <shachaf> Once upon a time I knew the rules of this game reasonably well.
07:07:07 <shachaf> I got a Rules Advisor certification.
07:07:08 <zzo38> (They also link to the official explanations from Wizards of the Coast, in the cases where this is available.)
07:07:20 <shachaf> Now it looks like it's been discocntinued.
07:08:25 <zzo38> I have not actually played Magic: the Gathering in many years, but have still kept track of all of the rule changes.
07:08:33 <shachaf> Mr2001: Did you play Factorio?
07:09:37 <HackEgo> 1/3://everyone: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.) \ a
07:09:54 <HackEgo> 2/3:tm//An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info. \ palate//Palate is usually a metaphor for a person's preferences about food or drink. \ hand injury//Hand injuries are surprisingly common among webcomic writers, see eg. http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=2314 or http://
07:10:07 <HackEgo> xxd: wisdom/spout: No such file or directory
07:10:16 <HackEgo> 0000000: 032f 2f03 3038 6576 0331 3465 7279 6f6e .//.08ev.14eryon \ 0000010: 653a 2057 656c 636f 6d65 2074 6f20 7468 e: Welcome to th \ 0000020: 6520 696e 7465 726e 6174 696f 6e61 6c20 e international \ 0000030: 0331 3268 7562 2066 6f72 2065 736f 7465 .12hub for esote \ 0000040: 7269 6303 3134 2070 726f 0330 3367 7261 ric.14 pro.03gra \ 00000
07:11:05 <shachaf> I declare this too confusing.
07:11:52 <HackEgo> 3/3:www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0864.html \ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯//¯\_(ツ)_/¯ is the ¯\(°_o)/¯ of urbandictionary
07:12:00 <zzo38> I have also invented many of my own Magic: the Gathering cards, including both proper and Un-cards
07:13:12 <zzo38> Did you make up some of such thing too please?
07:13:41 <shachaf> Did you invent any planeswalker cards?
07:14:12 <zzo38> I have had some ideas but not been able to make anything that seems reasonable.
07:14:44 <zzo38> (I had ideas including even Aura planeswalkers and planeswalker lands.)
07:15:04 <shachaf> What about a planeswalker with plainswalk?
07:15:41 <zzo38> I have not done, although it could be, if it were a planeswalker creature. (If is not a creature then plainswalk is not so helpful)
07:16:04 <shachaf> Well, another card might make it into a creature.
07:16:19 <zzo38> Yes, I know that too.
07:17:06 <zzo38> It can make the list http://zzo38computer.org/mtg/cardfile.php?do=list of the card I made up (although I also had many additional ideas not listed on there), and also the Un-cards game is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/uncards.txt too.
07:17:20 <shachaf> For a long time I thought the way you cast a spell in Magic: The Gathering was to put karma into your karma pool, and then cast the spell with it.
07:18:10 <zzo38> O, that is how you thought. OK
07:18:51 <shachaf> You should make up some cards that, to be used, require people to learn obscure rules.
07:19:23 <pikhq> I mean, they already exist, so there's precedent. :)
07:19:44 <zzo38> I have sometimes come up with such ideas, although not really for that reason; it just happens to turn out obscurely!
07:20:22 <zzo38> O, that is what you mean. That does not seems the things to base the design on to me, I think?
07:20:26 <shachaf> How can you make up a card that requires the player to know this rule?
07:20:37 <shachaf> I know you can do it as an interaction of a few cards.
07:21:02 <zzo38> If it turns out obscurely though I don't really care so much I think it is OK.
07:22:13 <zzo38> Do you like any of this custom cards? Maybe you can make up a new one too.
07:22:38 <shachaf> Maybe you should use Hack instead of PHP for your custom card website.
07:23:53 <zzo38> It is already PHP though. I wanted to use SQL, but, it doesn't do as a CGI so instead is a PHP code that includes some SQL codes. This SQL database can be downloaded too though if you want to download it and query it by your own SQL commands.
07:25:54 <zzo38> shachaf: Is that a question? It does not look like a very good question to me.
07:26:01 <shachaf> "If it is any player's birthday today, that player wins the game."
07:26:16 <shachaf> What happens if it's the birthday of more than one player?
07:26:43 <zzo38> Then all of those player are win the game.
07:27:20 <shachaf> Who wins the ante in that case?
07:28:34 <zzo38> The rule would be probably that you end in a draw, and so the owners of ante is not affected in that case I would think.
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07:30:02 <zzo38> (Although rules about ante is another rule I wanted to change anyways; the current rule has many kinds of problems. I have seen one suggestion where the ante zone is shared across subgames, and I like that idea, although it does not fix everything, I still like that idea; someone even explained a way to use that feature to make a puzzle!)
07:30:14 <shachaf> What about "Everybody is the Winner!", though?
07:31:06 <zzo38> Well, I suppose there is no answer. Or perhaps those objects are then having multiple owners.
07:32:07 <zzo38> Some of the Un-cards are just unanswerable.
07:32:48 <shachaf> But what if you played an Un-card enchantment that said "All Un-cards are answerable."?
07:33:56 <zzo38> Then you would have to make up a strange answer, I suppose. I don't know!
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07:41:30 <zzo38> There is no proper rule in Un-cards, only improper rules. But, many people have tried to argue how R&D's Secret Lair affects many things. There is something I thought of with using with the old Lightning Bolt, that it seem nobody on Gatherer has ever considered, which is to use it to damage all nontoken permanents that are creatures or planeswalkers.
07:42:51 <shachaf> If I said a function was a "proper injection", would you know what I meant?
07:44:04 <zzo38> No, at least not yet.
07:44:18 <shachaf> I mean a function which is an injection but not a bijection.
07:44:20 <zzo38> In context it might be clear though.
07:44:44 <zzo38> I did think of that, but still I did not know for sure.
07:45:25 <shachaf> What if I said "proper monomorphism"?
07:46:12 <zzo38> Again I am not sure, but would try to think of something similar.
07:47:00 <shachaf> What if I said "proper subobject"?
07:47:04 <zzo38> In context it may become clear though; I think if you used "proper injection" in a context like that it would be clear what it is meaning.
07:47:31 <zzo38> I don't know quite all of the mathematics, and I don't know what "subobject" is being
07:47:36 <zzo38> (But, I can look it up)
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07:47:55 <shachaf> https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/subobject
07:48:02 <zzo38> (So, it does not matter so much that I will not know.)
07:48:19 <shachaf> I usually think a subobject is a monomorphism. But it's actually an equivalence class of monomorphisms. Why is that?
07:48:30 <shachaf> I mean an isomorphism class.
07:50:35 <zzo38> I read it, and I do not know the answer of your question.
07:51:04 <zzo38> (Especially now that I am a bit tired, I don't know. I don't know that one either right now.)
07:52:14 <shachaf> Do you like quotient objects?
07:52:55 <zzo38> These questions are I just don't know at this time; I am a bit tired now, it is late time now.
07:54:40 <zzo38> I did get recently a book from library, which is The Art of Computer Programming volume 7 fascicle 0. I like this book.
07:55:22 <shachaf> If you find errors, you can get a check from the author.
07:55:44 <zzo38> And I do know about that payment for errors.
07:55:54 <shachaf> Mine wasn't for an error, though.
07:56:10 <shachaf> He thought it wasn't an error, and then he called up Ken Thompson and he agreed that it wasn't an error.
07:56:25 <shachaf> So then he put in a «"rant"», and I got a check for that.
07:57:12 <shachaf> kmc: you should fuzz TeX with afl and see whether you can get a check
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11:40:31 <lambdabot> CYUL 081000Z 26008KT 30SM FEW015 FEW035 BKN200 02/M01 A2974 RMK CF1SC1CC5 CF TR SLP074
11:41:00 <lambdabot> ENVA 081020Z 30011KT 9999 FEW045 BKN050 05/M05 Q1028 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 29011KT
11:41:12 <lambdabot> KATL 080952Z 28004KT 10SM CLR 11/06 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP177 T01110061
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13:04:40 <yorick> shachaf: what's happening
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17:31:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Braingolf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51881&oldid=51855 * Mayube * (+1007) /* Operators */
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17:53:12 <zzo38> Do you like my new kind of the VLQ? The new kind is like the ordinary VLQ but if the high bit is set then you must subtract 127 instead of subtract 128.
17:55:27 <zzo38> Some numbers can encode shorter and the redundancy of leading zeroes is avoided too.
17:55:52 <shachaf> I was just talking to someone about some sort of encoding the other day.
17:56:11 <shachaf> It was this: https://github.com/mortehu/libcolumnfile/blob/master/src/columnfile.h
17:58:01 <zzo38> I think it can be good for some kinds of data perhaps.
18:00:26 <zzo38> It still has the redundant encoding though.
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18:27:19 <Mr2001> that sounds equivalent to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-length_quantity#Removing_Redundancy
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18:39:42 <int-e> shachaf: wah, there's a level without a grill
18:41:40 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/ssr-dead-end.jpg
18:42:01 <shachaf> int-e: It's not hidden behind the column or anything?
18:42:07 <int-e> (but I have half a dozen unsolved levels left on *that* island.
18:42:27 <shachaf> I should get this running again.
18:43:33 <int-e> I guess those glowing pixels do something, I have not seen those anywhere before, I think.
18:49:18 <int-e> that half dozen is actually 9 or 10
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19:02:14 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
19:04:20 <hppavilion> I kind of want to design a programming language where the grammar can't be parsed to an Abstract Syntax Tree, but rather an Abstract Syntax Digraph
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19:18:29 <zzo38> I am not sure how that is going to work, although RDF does something a bit similar (although not quite).
19:29:26 <int-e> I imagine you could glue paper strips together
19:31:02 <hppavilion> zzo38: I know how to represent it in a computer, the issue is just how to make a proper syntax :P
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19:37:00 <shachaf> int-e: I looked up that puzzle because I'm not on that island yet and can't run the game in the near future, but now I'm disappointed that I looked it up because it's a good puzzle.
19:38:22 <int-e> I have an idea or two, but first I want to find out whether solving the remaining puzzles on the island changes anything...
19:38:38 <int-e> ...which I'll get around to eventually.
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19:39:31 <int-e> but thanks for the info that it is a puzzle
19:40:19 <int-e> and sorry for tempting you to spoil it for you...
19:40:29 <int-e> ...though I didn't intend that.
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21:01:03 <zzo38> Here I made a list of some of the composite modes in my Farbfeld Utilities program: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ff-composite (There are a lot more!) Do you think this is good? You can tell me if there is other stuff too that should be had, and see whether or not it is already implemented but not documented, or if it is not implemented either.
21:01:35 <int-e> wob_jonas: why would you do such a thing?
21:03:57 <zzo38> There is the ability to treat the alpha channel as the depth buffer if you want to, as well.
21:04:19 <zzo38> And there is another mode to treat each pixel as a quaternion.
21:14:42 <wob_jonas> zzo38: in that docs, are these only the special modes that aren't composed from a way to handle alpha and a way to handle opacity?
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21:35:33 <HackEgo> welcome.bork//Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <http://isulungs.oorg/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon IFnet oor DELnet.)
21:35:53 <HackEgo> We know nothing about yorick, alas.
21:36:14 <zzo38> wob_jonas: These are some of them, anyways. The other ones with numbers 64 and higher are composed of different options for handling opacity and handling colours and so on, and I have not listed any of those.
21:36:17 <HackEgo> 1/1:istr//istr istr is vaguely similar to iirc. \ eurovision//Eurovision is the European way of looking at the world. For some reason it involves a lot of cheesy singing. \ citation//Citation needed \ beethoven's ninth symphony//Beethoven's Ninth Symphony is a package most commonly installed in order to convert ODE files into JOY files.
21:36:50 <zzo38> If you know how the document should be written for such thing, then you could add those modes.
21:37:20 <wob_jonas> zzo38: right. those ones are combined from a duff-porter mode that handles the transparency, and a composition mode that handles the color value
21:38:10 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes. Those ones you are talking about are all numbered 64 and higher.
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21:41:00 <wob_jonas> though I don't quite get how those work. the low bits control the composition modes, that's clear, and those dense few lines in the definitions of F and FF somehow handle the duff-porter thing.
21:41:07 <wob_jonas> But aren't there like 16 duff-porter modes?
21:41:46 <zzo38> They aren't only duff-porter modes; it includes many other kinds too.
21:43:53 <wob_jonas> oh right, there are 2*2*3 modes: one bit controls whether the places where the destination image is transparent should be transparent or get the color of the source image, one bit controls the places where the source image is transparent,
21:44:25 <wob_jonas> and one trit controls whether the places where both images are opaque becomes transparent, or get composed, or get composed in reverse.
21:46:54 <wob_jonas> Of these, the first two bits are controlled by bits 9 and 10 in the mode in ff-composite,
21:52:55 <wob_jonas> I think you don't have a swapped composition mode; but if you clear bit 8 and set the low bits to 2, that should make it behave like the duff-porter modes that clear the intersection.
21:54:35 <zzo38> I based it on the description that is used in the SVG documentation.
21:56:21 <wob_jonas> And as for the low bits, 0 and 1 are source and destination, 3 is saturating add (useful for composing an antialiased polygon mash to a black background if you know the polygons are pairwise non-intersecting), 23 and 28 are subtract,
21:57:36 <wob_jonas> (low bits) is darken only, 7 is lighten only, 4 is multiply, 5 is screen, and there's more.
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21:57:52 <zzo38> You should edit that linked wiki page if you think you know how to best describe them.
21:58:09 <HackEgo> 10799:2017-04-22 <oerjän> learn Citation needed \ 6816:2016-02-11 <hppavilion[1̈]> le/rn citation/needed
21:58:38 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I'm not comfortable with reading your code and I'm lazy to test this stuff now. I'd probably make lots of errors.
21:59:20 <zzo38> Although if mistakes are made it is not too bad since they can be fixed.
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22:05:09 <wob_jonas> zzo38: which ff utility generates a picture with a uniform argb color, given the color and the size as inputs?
22:06:09 <zzo38> You can use ff-gradient with the width, height, "h", and the color.
22:06:34 <zzo38> You can also use ff-chess with the color twice. There are other possibilities too.
22:06:39 <wob_jonas> I see. That can be useful as a compositing background
22:07:12 <zzo38> Yes, although if you want the usual kind of composition against a solid background, ff-back may be better.
22:08:44 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I want composition of multiple smaller images to a larger solid background, the background might be opaque of some color or transparent.
22:09:06 <wob_jonas> ff-back doesn't help, because it can't enlarge an image
22:09:17 <kmc> Phantom_Hoover: I haven't used nom, sorry
22:09:19 <zzo38> In that case then yes, just using ff-gradient or ff-chess to make the background can help.
22:09:21 <kmc> are you using it for something?
22:09:54 <Phantom_Hoover> i started on that cs171 course for the sake of doing something
22:10:22 <Phantom_Hoover> so about 10 seconds into writing an objfile parser i was overwhelmed with the thought that "surely this is why we invented general abstract parser nonsense"
22:10:57 <wob_jonas> Ah, ff-bright is the one that does gamma correction.
22:11:37 <zzo38> Yes, and http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=Documentation has a list with short descriptions (not all of the individual documents per programs exist yet though, but some do).
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22:12:21 <wob_jonas> I still mostly feel like I don't want to spend much on ff utils, because ImageMagick does almost everything with an interface that I find more convenient, and for the few things missing, I'd rather fix ImageMagick when I need it, since it already has lots of useful APIs.
22:12:39 <Phantom_Hoover> from my brief experience with rust the #1 problem is that there is the obvious way of doing it, and a shorter, cleaner, more robust way that you'll be able to figure out after reading just a few more docs
22:13:10 <zzo38> Well, ImageMagick can have things to be fixed too, so if you know how to contribute to that then you can do that too.
22:13:43 <wob_jonas> I don't necessarily have to contribute (as in, send code back to the mainstream), just use their apis.
22:15:35 <zzo38> O, OK. (Still, if there is something missing, it could help to mention to them at least. Same as true with my farbfeld programs; it could help to mention at least if something seem missing. One thing is that I think ImageMagick does not even support farbfeld, although it seem to me that for completeness it probably should.)
22:15:45 <wob_jonas> And while there are some stupid problems with ImageMagick, as in, sometimes their programs are buggy for no apparent reason, they're just not enough problems to override the convenience I get most of the time.
22:16:04 <Phantom_Hoover> didn't imagemagick have some really ridiculous security hole
22:16:44 <wob_jonas> PH: many programs that handle like hundreds of formats with various plugins from different sources have security holes. I don't know why people pick on IM in particular.
22:16:52 <Phantom_Hoover> a stand-out work in the wonderful medium of vuln branding
22:17:06 <zzo38> Well, if the program does what you need to do then you can use that and it can work. However, I write program using farbfeld instead, and now it can be another alternative.
22:17:10 <wob_jonas> They can hate all the browsers or mail agents that let you open files from the internet with default-assigned applications instead.
22:17:53 <zzo38> wob_jonas: And it can avoid that problem too because the programs to alter the pictures are different from the program to encode/decode, and each one only does one, so it avoids that, at least.
22:18:11 <zzo38> (Also, you only need to download and compile the stuff you need, instead of everything.)
22:18:15 <wob_jonas> PH: also, in practice, I've seen ffmpeg misbehave in way more serious ways for untrusted input files than I've seen ImageMagick do so.
22:18:31 <wob_jonas> This may depend on how you use them of course.
22:19:20 <zzo38> I have never used ffmpeg so I don't know, although I also haven't tried using improper input files with ImageMagick either, so I don't know that either.
22:19:31 <wob_jonas> zzo38: IM can be configured easily for which plugins to use, and for each input, I can tell what format to expect, in which case it won't try another plugin.
22:20:20 <zzo38> Yes, I know it can be specified for ImageMagick what format to use.
22:20:43 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well, it might be because I open video files only in ffmpeg (IM can open them with the ffmpeg plugin too, but only if the whole raw data fits in virtual memory, which is not a typical use case), whereas I open images in both,
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22:21:42 <wob_jonas> and video formats are more prone to problems because people never bother to use newer image formats than age old jpeg and png, but they do all sorts of new video formats with new more efficient hardware-optimized encoders and decoders all the time, so it's no surprise we get bugs in those.
22:22:30 <wob_jonas> If people distributed images in all sorts of rare formats and I tried to open those, then sure, I would get the same problems. But I only get images in rare formats when they're raw images straight from consumer cameras.
22:23:24 <wob_jonas> I would like people to use newer image formats, but it's not easy to make people change what works.
22:23:58 <wob_jonas> (and by "newer", I mean 15 year old formats as opposed to 30 year old ones)
22:24:13 <wob_jonas> (at least. ideally even develop newer ones.)
22:24:41 <zzo38> I know of FLIF, and have had some of my own ideas too for making a compressed pictures format too
22:25:04 <Phantom_Hoover> seems an obvious case where there's no serious pressure towards more efficient image transfer
22:25:15 <wob_jonas> (and of course there are all sorts of new image formats that aren't really intended for final distribution, but mainly for a single image editor, but those don't count here.)
22:26:01 <wob_jonas> PH: this is mostly under control for the people who make browsers. if the major browsers decide to support a video format or an image format, then people will use it.
22:26:20 <zzo38> Well, there is then also farbfeld, which also (in my opinion) aren't really intended for final distribution either, but not only for a single image editor but for all image editors!
22:26:46 <wob_jonas> but currently they don't support anything but jpeg and png and gif and a few older ones that are obsoleted by those
22:27:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose gifs were ubiquitous until a couple of years ago and are only slowly being displaced
22:27:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure. IM has two formats intended for only IM too. gimp has its own save format, and so does corel's two image editors and adobe's two image editors and whatever.
22:27:53 <wob_jonas> PH: gifs these days are mostly used as a sort of video replacement. people no longer use gifs for static images, because png is better for that.
22:28:26 <zzo38> Yes, although they are intended only for those programs; farbfeld can be use for hopefully any encoder/decoder/editors rather than only one.
22:30:20 <wob_jonas> yes, and obviously imagemagick and ffmpeg have plugins for lots of image format, and so does gimp and krita and the adobe and corel editors, to various extents,
22:31:07 <zzo38> Yes they certainly do. Someone even made a farbfeld plugin for use with GIMP, but I think is not very good because it can only read/write files and not pipes.
22:31:09 <wob_jonas> and when they're missing plugins, then you chain two different programs with some raw format between them, only you sometimes have to handle metadata by hand in that case.
22:31:50 <wob_jonas> And the same thing happens with sound and video too. I've chained different image software, different video software, and different audio software at least once.
22:32:26 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: WebP is a modern image format.
22:32:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: hmm, there's some truth in that
22:32:52 <zzo38> One of the things I did intend to add in future into the PNG encoder is to be able to use metadata from another PNG file.
22:33:21 <zzo38> It seem to me that FLIF is work better than WebP though, isn't it?
22:33:42 <wob_jonas> It's possible that some video formats are modern image formats too.
22:34:47 <fizzie> Well, WebP can do lossy as well. No idea how lossless WebP and FLIF compare.
22:34:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: but webp isn't _yet_ supported by major browsers, right? it's just a good candidate that might be in the future
22:35:11 <fizzie> Not all major browsers, no.
22:35:29 <fizzie> And I think Mozilla may have abandoned their plans.
22:35:53 <wob_jonas> Is there software yet that lets me compress images to webp in such a way that a small part (a few rectangular ranges) of the image is compressed in better quality than most?
22:36:36 <wob_jonas> Because that's what I really want from an image format, but JPEG makes it really hard, because you can't just change the quantization matrix for just a rectangular region, and if you use a small quantization matrix for the whole image, then it doesn't compress well enough.
22:37:23 <wob_jonas> It's possible that you could distribute an image as x264-encoded video like that, with special encoding software.
22:37:38 <zzo38> FLIF is a lossless format, but the encoder also has a lossy mode. How might it be done to make lossy alterations into a picture to make it compress better as PNG?
22:38:21 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It would not be very good I think, since it is a video not a picture. However, such HTTP headers as Accept and so on could be used to make the server automatically know which format you want I suppose.
22:38:46 <wob_jonas> The problem with old formats is that even if they compress well, they aren't designed such that they are easy to encode and decode quickly on modern machines. They're designed to be easy to decode and encode on old machines.
22:40:16 <zzo38> Make up the new HTTP header Accept-Soft-Limit to tell the server to try to limit to that many bytes if is reasonable to do so.
22:42:58 <hppavilion> wob_jonas: For some reason I can't talk in ##programming
22:43:26 <\oren\> why does emacs need ten megs to edit a file that is only 800 BYTES in size?
22:43:28 <hppavilion> It can't be because I'm not identified; I just identified
22:43:33 <\oren\> richard stallman is a total moron
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22:44:02 <\oren\> holy shit ten megabytes for each and every file my coworker has open
22:44:42 <hppavilion> I wonder if, when generating a wordsearch, which of the following makes it more difficult:
22:45:16 <hppavilion> 1. Filling in the random letters (those not involved in a searchable word) with equal probability- just as many z's and q's as t's and e's
22:46:02 <hppavilion> 2. Filling in the random letters with the same distribution as the assumed language of the search (obviously, interlingual searches require either a weighted mean or just taking option (1))
22:46:50 <hppavilion> So in an English search with no words, there'd be (on average) substantially more e's and t's than q's and z's
22:56:50 <\oren\> so yeah I think my tests will succeed now that I've politely asked my coworker to kill some of the 238 emacsen he had open
22:58:40 <wob_jonas> can't he have just a few emacsen, with multiple buffers in them?
22:58:57 <shachaf> \oren\: Why are you running your tests on the same machine as your editor?
22:59:07 <shachaf> Have you considered fixing your build and test system?
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23:00:08 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no he's not. his co-worker is running his editors on the production machine where the tests are supposed to be ran. that's obviously not oren's fault.
23:00:41 <\oren\> I also run my editors on the same machine
23:01:11 <wob_jonas> running editors is ok, but 238 of them when they take 10 megabytes each is a lot.
23:01:12 <\oren\> But I use nano, which doesn't take a separate 10 megabytes process for each file that is open
23:01:25 <wob_jonas> If I open many files, I open them in just few editors.
23:02:11 <\oren\> I still say this is all richard stallman's fault.
23:02:55 <wob_jonas> at least your coworker fixed the problem when you asked. that's a good thing.
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23:03:13 <\oren\> I think he wasn't even aware that so many were open
23:03:27 <\oren\> a lot of them were started months ago
23:03:50 <\oren\> which raises bigger questions of course
23:03:59 <shachaf> one little, two little, three little emacsen
23:04:09 <shachaf> \oren\: you should fix your test and build infrastructure
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23:06:41 <\oren\> oh, he's got the population down to 30
23:06:55 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying...).
23:08:31 <\oren\> wow, look at all this memory, how beautiful its empty expanse, like a sea beneath the stars
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23:23:40 <HackEgo> fungot//fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
23:27:49 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: tell list let leet
23:28:06 <boily> okay, everything's fine.
23:28:19 * boily stares at his uncooperative modem
23:28:39 <wob_jonas> boily: no, not fine. that command returned false exit code.
23:28:49 <HackEgo> cat: bin/test: No such file or directory
23:28:59 <wob_jonas> HackEgo doesn't tell you the exit code, only the stdout
23:29:20 <shachaf> I'm sure it won't break anything.
23:29:26 <HackEgo> nœd//Nœd is Norwegian for distress.
23:29:30 <wob_jonas> don't create exes with name the same as common unix utilities, unless they're compatible. it's rude.
23:29:32 <shachaf> `mkx bin/test//kill -9 $PPID
23:30:00 <shachaf> HackEgo is not supposed to be a reliable environment.
23:30:10 <shachaf> It's supposed to defy your expectations in subtle ways.
23:30:17 <wob_jonas> could cause hard to debug problems
23:30:31 <wob_jonas> if you want to defy expectations, make them in such a way that are easy to debug
23:30:34 <boily> HackEgo is extremely sturdy. it has, like +9 resistance.
23:30:57 <wob_jonas> boily: that doesn't protect from spells it casts on itself
23:32:51 <shachaf> `mkx bin/test//[[ $((RANDOM % 5)) -eq 0 ]] && /bin/test "$@" || kill -9 $$
23:33:00 <shachaf> Better? Now it's 80% reliable.
23:34:02 <shachaf> That's only 7 dB of unreliability
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23:49:46 <HackEgo> brainfuck:brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array \ jerk:Jerk is the integral of snap.
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23:58:00 <hppavilion> shachaf: I've never thought to ask: what's the derivative of the family of terrible esolangs?
23:58:13 <HackEgo> oerjän hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] hppavilion[1̈] oerjän oerjän oerjän