←2017-07-24 2017-07-25 2017-07-26→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:02:24 <tswett> It is not cartesian closed.
00:02:39 <tswett> How do I know? nLab kind of implies it.
00:03:54 <tswett> Does it have a subobject classifier? Umm... oh boy, that's an interesting one.
00:04:26 <tswett> If there's a subobject classifier, presumably it's the set 2.
00:05:15 <shachaf> Why?
00:05:29 <shachaf> Categories that have a subobject classifier that isn't 2 are TG
00:05:40 <tswett> They're what?
00:05:57 <shachaf> too good
00:06:09 <tswett> Well, let's see.
00:07:14 <tswett> Om is a subobject classifier if every monomorphism A -> B is a pullback of B -> Om along the "true morphism" 1 -> Om.
00:07:40 <tswett> ...Yeah close enough.
00:07:55 <tswett> The arrow B -> Om has to be unique, in particular.
00:08:35 <tswett> So, consider the empty monomorphism from {} to {1}.
00:08:55 <tswett> This has to correspond to exactly one function {1} -> Om.
00:09:28 <tswett> So Om has to contain exactly one element that isn't the "true" element.
00:09:31 <tswett> So Om has to be 2.
00:09:40 <tswett> Nyow...
00:09:46 <tswett> Is 2 actually a subobject classifier at all?
00:10:25 <tswett> Given an injective primitive recursive function A -> B, is there a primitive recursive function B -> 2 which picks out its image?
00:12:20 <tswett> I'm thinking... no.
00:14:28 <tswett> There can't be an algorithm for *finding* such a primitive recursive function, at least. I don't think.
00:15:10 <tswett> Let A be the set of even integers greater than or equal to 4...
00:15:16 <tswett> And let B just be the natural numbers.
00:15:51 <tswett> Define f(x) = x, if x is the sum of two prime numbers; otherwise, the smallest odd number that is not the value of f(y) for y smaller than x.
00:16:17 <tswett> Then the image of f contains 1 if and only if Goldbach's conjecture is false.
00:17:17 <tswett> Now, the function B -> 2 picking out the image of f is, in fact, primitive recursive. We just don't know which primitive recursive function it is.
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01:51:00 <tswett> All right, what was that algebraic geometry textbook that I'd been looking through.
01:51:05 <tswett> Was it Harris?
01:51:41 <shachaf> The senator? I don't think she wrote an algebraic geometry book.
01:51:45 <shachaf> Or do you mean the magician?
01:52:23 <tswett> I mean my high school classmate.
01:52:29 <tswett> I'm wondering if the textbook was literally that person.
01:53:29 <tswett> I'm pretty sure it was Perrin.
01:55:36 <tswett> Yep, gotta be.
01:56:21 <tswett> Exerciseeees
01:56:40 <tswett> "Is the set {(t, sin t) | t \in R} algebraic?"
01:56:43 <tswett> No.
01:58:02 <tswett> Because it... has countably infinitely many intersections with (t, 0)?
01:58:23 <tswett> Because it does not lie entirely on a line but does lie between two parallel lines?
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03:12:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52532&oldid=52528 * LyricLy * (+1177)
03:17:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[A programming language is a formal computer language designed to communicate instructions to a machine, particularly a computer.]] to [[A programming language is a formal language that specifies a set of instructions that can be used to produce various kinds of output.]]: Per spec
03:25:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A programming language is a formal language that specifies a set of instructions that can be used to produce various kinds of output.]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52535&oldid=52533 * Oerjan * (-231) Lazily update
03:28:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52536&oldid=52531 * Oerjan * (+5) /* A */
03:29:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Programming Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52537&oldid=51008 * Oerjan * (+5) update
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03:34:35 <doesthiswork> What happened? those definitions have no visible in jokes.
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03:35:56 <oerjan> it's an out joke, i guess.
03:36:16 <oerjan> aka wikipedia's first sentence changed, thus does the language.
03:38:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Aplifcldtcitampac]]": This redirect is now *completely* meaningless, rather than *almost completely*.
03:43:25 <oerjan> doesthiswork: i see from history that it's name has been "butt" rather recently (if briefly)
03:43:28 <oerjan> *its
03:44:07 <oerjan> anyway the current form has been _mostly_ there since 29 April.
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03:44:49 <doesthiswork> that makes me feel better
03:46:50 <doesthiswork> how do you handle versioning?
03:47:12 <oerjan> in the "formerly known as" part, i guess...
03:48:10 <oerjan> (might have to reformat that at some point)
03:49:20 <doesthiswork> I mean programs don't have a way to indicate which version they depend on
03:49:45 <oerjan> shocking
03:50:04 <oerjan> fortunately, each version doesn't have a lot of programs.
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03:50:32 <oerjan> actually, each program contains all the information needed to discern the version
03:52:37 <oerjan> the current sentence is pretty much factually wrong, alas.
03:53:39 <oerjan> way too limited, which is ironical because it was changed in response to a talk page comment that complained the _original definition_ was too limited.
04:00:16 <oerjan> <int-e>  rm wisdom/ye*sh <-- nooooooooooooooo
04:00:26 <oerjan> >_> <_<
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04:19:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Polyglot]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52538&oldid=49718 * Wheatwizard * (+122) Added the PPCG polyglot
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04:30:14 <zzo38> HAKMEM says that to swap two bits in an accumulator, you can write "TRCE A,BITS" three times, but I don't know what is TRCE. Do you know?
04:32:03 <Mr2001> http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/opcodes.html
04:32:08 <Mr2001> HAKMEM is all about the PDP, isn't it?
04:32:25 <zzo38> I think so
04:32:35 <zzo38> Thank you I will look at that document
04:36:41 <zzo38> It says "test bits right with complement and skip if equal" I am not sure what "test bits right" means, though.
04:39:40 <zzo38> That document does not explain much about the instructions.
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04:46:01 <zzo38> O, I looked at other files in the same directory and found some more information
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04:51:24 <doesthiswork> I think I see how it works
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04:55:20 <zzo38> Now I read about what that instruction actually means, and now I can see how it is working.
04:56:19 <doesthiswork> I can see why they were proud enough to put it in the hackmem
04:56:28 <doesthiswork> sorry "HAKMEM"
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05:09:34 <Mr2001> I mean, if I had a dollar for every time I've needed to swap two bits in an accumulator in fewer than four instructions
05:10:39 <Mr2001> ...I would've just paid for the extra electricity it took to do it the straightforward way, and kept the other 99.99999 cents
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05:28:14 <zzo38> Mr2001: OK, but what instruction set are you writing the programs for anyways?
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06:07:36 <shachaf> olist 1085
06:07:37 <HackEgo> olist 1085: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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06:16:52 <imode> well. I'm hooked.
06:17:02 <imode> I just compressed a graph of four nodes down to 1.625 bits.
06:17:09 <imode> four nodes, three edges.
06:17:22 <imode> err, not bits, bytes.
06:17:26 <shachaf> himode
06:17:34 <imode> hiii.
06:17:37 <shachaf> Is there a good succinct representation of prefix trees?
06:17:51 <imode> plenty if you hunt.,
06:18:04 <imode> I'm just doing graphs.
06:18:12 <imode> and n-ary trees.
06:19:54 <shachaf> Sounds trickier.
06:20:02 <shachaf> I don't know of one for either.
06:20:37 <imode> it's actually pretty neat.
06:21:02 <imode> I started working on encoding planar graphs then I figured out that what I was doing was book encoding.
06:21:05 <imode> or book embedding.
06:21:44 <imode> planar graphs are really easy. given a list of n nodes, say 5, list out n marks of *.
06:22:08 <imode> *****. then, for each edge like 1 <-> 3, place a { after the first node in the pair, and a } after the second node.
06:23:01 <imode> so the string becomes *{**}**. adjacency queries become questions about enclosure.
06:24:19 <imode> for example, to test whether node 1 is connected to node 3, all you have to do is navigate to node 1, skip ahead to the first {, and then skip to the matching }. if the index of the third node in the string is less than the index of the matching }, then they're connected. if not, they aren't.
06:28:57 <imode> there's some other stuff you need like backtracking from a closing to an opening, because each opening and closing paren after the *s represents an edge.
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06:39:20 <imode> there's a twist though: one sequence like this only encodes a planar graph. if you want to encode a nonplanar graph, you have to use book embedding to encode multiple planar graphs with the edges you want.
06:39:46 <imode> but it's as simple as concatenating the strings of bits together with a delimiter.
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06:41:06 <imode> compressing graphs like this gives me some new insight on how to cram a fuckton of data onto small devices.
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07:27:28 <zzo38> OK
07:27:38 <zzo38> What new insight is that?
07:29:55 <imode> in that if you support basic bitwise ops you can store massive static datastructures with efficient query ops on extremely small devices.
07:30:05 <oerjan> imode going compression crackpot in 3,2...
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07:30:44 <imode> compared to pointer-based stuff.
07:31:31 <imode> oerjan: crackpot huh? :P
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07:31:47 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that's a thing.
07:32:21 <imode> "yeah I can store 10Tb on this flashdrive."
07:32:58 <oerjan> http://goodmath.scientopia.org/2010/08/03/revenge-of-the-return-of-the-compression-idiot/
07:33:52 <imode> "good luck kid I'm behind seven archives."
07:35:17 <imode> oh I can compress any file down to 50K. just don't ask me for it back.
07:35:53 <zzo38> I have done compression stuff before, many kind of experiment, making better compression for Sokoban levels, for MegaZeux worlds, etc. These are specific cases rather than general-purpose compression though
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07:36:30 <imode> thing is, it's not really compression.
07:37:12 <imode> the graph as specified above is still usable in place. with some rudimentary rewriting you can insert new edges, remove edges...
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07:40:45 <zzo38> OK
07:41:32 <imode> it's definitely not the ideal representation but it gets damn close.
07:44:13 <imode> "This was with random data. At least that's what people call it. Bzip2 data. (It looks pretty random to me.)"
07:44:32 <imode> "I don't know what this stuff represents so it's random."
07:44:43 <imode> crackpots are funny people.
07:45:11 <doesthiswork> that's actually a fair definition of random
07:45:37 <doesthiswork> just not one you can use for compression or other mathematical purposes
07:45:38 <imode> hah.
07:46:28 <oerjan> you might bayes other things on it
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07:47:33 <imode> this guy needs to stop hamming around.
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08:01:39 <shachaf> newsham: whoa whoa whoa
08:01:43 <shachaf> newsham: 9 is a lot of years
08:02:16 <oerjan> it's the most you can have without running out of digits
08:02:32 <izabera> hex years are a thing
08:02:33 <shachaf> Yep. Time to start over after that.
08:03:25 <oerjan> you can only use hex years if you've been hexed to have 8 fingers on each hand hth
08:04:07 <Hoolootwo> if you were hexed, you'd have 6 fingers, right?
08:04:22 <Hoolootwo> you would have to be octed to have 8 fingers
08:04:45 <oerjan> curses
08:04:57 <imode> hah.
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08:26:58 <int-e> English has upset me once again. Why is there a stress on the *second* syllable in "superfluous"?
08:28:31 <izabera> -per-?
08:28:41 <Hoolootwo> english hates you too
08:30:05 <izabera> int-e: because if you stress the next syllabe it sounds like super-fluorescent
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08:36:16 <Taneb> int-e, that upsets me too
08:36:36 <oerjan> int-e: looks like it's the stress inherited from latin...
08:36:55 <oerjan> where it's entirely logical.
08:37:44 <oerjan> (the -ous is from -us, not -osus)
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10:29:28 <rdococ> "Would you like tea or coffee?" "True."
10:32:46 <rdococ> "Okay, would you like tea xor coffee?" "True." "Hm. Would you like tea?" "Superposition. I haven't observed the details of my desire for a hot beverage yet." "..."
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10:52:02 <Taneb> rdococ, is it OK if I answer "False" to the first question?
10:52:38 <Jafet> is it necessary for the possibility that you drink coffee to entail an obligation for you to eventually drink tea?
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12:16:57 <rdococ> Taneb, it would make more sense than answering True.
12:17:02 <rdococ> at least to an ordinary person.
12:17:25 <rdococ> Jafet, yes but only if you're British,
12:17:27 <rdococ> .*
12:17:41 <Taneb> rdococ, it's amazing how surprised people get when I want neither tea nor coffee
12:21:45 <rdococ> heh
12:22:32 <boily> *gasp*!
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12:26:59 <boily> relcome PattuX
12:27:03 <HackEgo> PattuX: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:41:08 <Vorpal> alercah: hm, I wonder what happens to old parts of homestar runner? Didn't it use to have flash games? I haven't followed it in recent years.
17:42:15 <Vorpal> oh wait, I'm thinking of homestuck
17:42:22 <Vorpal> homestar runner was always all flash wasn't it?
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19:03:40 <Taneb> ...I'm sure I used to own more than zero pens
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19:10:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52539&oldid=52512 * Qwertyu63 * (+1)
19:50:37 <\oren\> Taneb: check under the carpet
19:53:21 <izabera> did someone invent a bf equivalent language where each symbol is a digit from 0 to 7 and you need a space between symbols and no other symbol is valid?
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21:27:10 <deltab> Vorpal: I don't know about homestar runner, but in general some animations will be recorded as video and posted on YouTube; some will be converted to JavaScript (Google has a tool for that, for adverts); and there are Flash player implementations both native and web
21:27:53 <Vorpal> deltab: also homestuck and similar
21:28:05 * deltab nods
21:28:17 <Vorpal> it had interactive stuff though
21:28:21 <Vorpal> small games
21:28:27 <deltab> and the massive game repositories like Kongregate
21:28:42 <Vorpal> yeah, newgrounds it the other big one right?
21:28:46 <deltab> yeah
21:29:30 <Vorpal> good night
21:31:54 <deltab> http://blog.kongregate.com/html5-is-here/
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22:11:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52540&oldid=51395 * Kerbal * (+289) /* Potentially Stupid Question */ new section
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