< 1501547261 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ߷ < 1501547262 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+07F7 NKO SYMBOL GBAKURUNEN] < 1501547332 0 :https_GK1wmSU!~deep-book@169.55.27.131 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501547478 0 :https_GK1wmSU!~deep-book@169.55.27.131 PART #esoteric : < 1501547872 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1501548138 0 :Warrigal_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett JOIN :#esoteric < 1501548908 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501549085 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501549142 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501549453 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Periapsis 5* 10New user account < 1501549563 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501549666 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501550102 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52610&oldid=52602 5* 03Periapsis 5* (+247) 10 < 1501550149 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Joke language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52611&oldid=52437 5* 03Periapsis 5* (+16) 10/* Brainfuck derivatives */ < 1501550335 0 :z0d!~z0d@unaffiliated/z0d QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1501550575 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501550726 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501551391 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501551456 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501551488 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98980.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this language any good? https://winworldpc.com/product/actor < 1501551558 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98980.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Actor is an object oriented Smalltalk-like programming language for Windows 3.1. < 1501551558 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98980.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interestingly, an earlier version of Actor ran on Windows 2.1!" < 1501551633 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501551665 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501551956 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07BrainGuck14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52612 5* 03Periapsis 5* (+694) 10Created page with "BrainGuck is an esoteric language created by [[User:Periapsis]]. It was inspired by [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Language_overview BrainFuck]. It adds a few extra comm..." < 1501552282 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07BrainGuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52613&oldid=52612 5* 03Periapsis 5* (+0) 10 < 1501552574 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501552662 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501552962 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501553131 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501553185 0 :Warrigal_!~tswett@unaffiliated/tswett QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1501553247 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501553329 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501554040 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1501554299 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501554346 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501554602 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501554660 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`smlist 455 < 1501554661 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :smlist 455: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale < 1501554668 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh < 1501554700 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: you're supposed to ooh over olists < 1501554722 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Super Mega Comics℠ < 1501554730 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Super Mega℠ < 1501554740 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1501554746 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is olist? < 1501554752 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? olist < 1501554753 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html < 1501554781 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I haven't gotten into that one yet < 1501554801 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a good time for it! < 1501554833 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just you have to read past the first hundred or so before it turns into much of anything. < 1501554885 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501555387 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote Cale < 1501555404 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1116) I do sometimes work on Linux computer. I think it is set to en.UTF-8 by default although on my account I have changed it to the C locale, disabled Unicode translation, and loaded a CP437 font. This improves the operation of the system. < 1501555423 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`randquote < 1501555424 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1501555428 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@quote Cale < 1501555428 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale says: One can create powerful abstractions in C++ in much the same way that a woman can produce a child. It's possible, and people do it, but it takes hours of labour and is extremely painful. < 1501555453 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: Do you like the new C++ metaclasses proposal? < 1501555577 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I kinda stopped caring about how good/shitty C++ is. < 1501555608 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's probably better just not to touch it at all. < 1501555617 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This new proposal is wonderfully complex. < 1501555623 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For fear that you can only make things worse < 1501555624 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is going to be so complicated. < 1501555627 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's great. < 1501555629 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1501555648 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway there are still not many competitor to C++ < 1501555661 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a lot of software that I'd probably still use C++ to write today? < 1501556062 0 :https_GK1wmSU!~deep-book@77.234.42.183 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501556211 0 :https_GK1wmSU!~deep-book@77.234.42.183 PART #esoteric : < 1501556430 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: I wish I understood the reals. :-( < 1501556472 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What would it mean to understand them? < 1501556488 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure! < 1501556501 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just think they're a much more mysterious and fundamental object than I gave them credit for in the past. < 1501556549 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: any opinions on https://www.facebook.com/slbkbs/posts/1540808232616365 twh < 1501556633 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That question makes me think to mention this quirky strategy for proving the reals are uncountable < 1501556665 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See also the comments, which apparently you have to click the link to see.) < 1501556915 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let S be an arbitrary subset of [0,1] and define a two-player game as follows. < 1501556927 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first player picks a number 0 < a_1 < 1 < 1501556939 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the second player picks a number a_1 < b_1 < 1 < 1501556954 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and thereafter, the players pick numbers between the previous two selected numbers, i.e. < 1501556966 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a_(n-1) < a_n < b_(n-1) < 1501556966 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1501556982 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a_n < b_n < b_(n-1) < 1501556991 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1501557018 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since the sequence of a_n is monotone increasing and bounded, it has a limit L. The first player wins if L is in S. < 1501557052 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If S is countable, then the second player has a winning strategy: pick b_n to be s_n whenever that is a valid move, and to play a random move otherwise < 1501557071 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If s_n wasn't a valid move, then it's already outside the interval in which the limit must occur < 1501557096 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the limit of the sequence must be strictly less than b_n, so playing s_n as b_n ensures that the limit is not s_n for any n < 1501557108 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if S is [0,1], then the first player always wins < 1501557129 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So [0,1] is uncountable < 1501557142 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's s_n? < 1501557164 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, S = {s_1,s_2,...} under the assumption it's countable < 1501557180 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, left that out < 1501557238 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501557539 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first player would have a winning strategy if the _complement_ of S is countable, i think. < 1501557606 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :in pretty much the same way. < 1501557675 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah what's up with internet... < 1501557682 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to restart router < 1501557779 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1501557890 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm that didn't help, still no connection to PPCG < 1501557924 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: Which properties of the reals do you need for this? < 1501558010 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally ordered, Dedekind-complete? < 1501558014 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's not enough. < 1501558111 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION switches DNS to 8.8.8.8 < 1501558182 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION puts reminder in a vim window to change it back < 1501558217 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :high tech primitive solutions < 1501558373 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that defines the reals though < 1501558380 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: well, that and that they are a field < 1501558404 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"that they are a field" is a short phrase that has a lot of complexity. < 1501558434 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1501558444 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in particular they are a totally ordered field < 1501558445 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you see my post above? < 1501558465 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any special insight < 1501558496 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The real line ⟨ℝ,<⟩ is (up to isomorphism) the unique nonempty, separable, complete, dense, endless total order." < 1501558523 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which of those properties are used in Cale's game? < 1501558543 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, I guess a lot of them. < 1501558654 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not the endless one, i guess. < 1501558672 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale's proof isn't even about R, it's about [0,1] < 1501558688 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that one isn't necessary. < 1501558730 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's separability again? < 1501558741 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm which of those properties isn't satisfied by a single point space... < 1501558750 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1501558757 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the only one you need endless for. < 1501558765 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show that it has more than one point. < 1501558888 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, [0,1] isn't endless. How do you characterize a potentially-closed real interval? < 1501558945 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think dropping endless gives all of them, plus the single point. < 1501558976 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: separable = contains countable dense subset < 1501559001 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why it's called separable < 1501559064 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right, like Q in R < 1501559185 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1501559198 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to figure out why separable is necessary < 1501559296 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://mathoverflow.net/a/43165 gives an example < 1501559684 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure separable is necessary for the proof. < 1501559851 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52614&oldid=52610 5* 03Phi 5* (+160) 10 < 1501559991 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it is < 1501560020 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52615&oldid=52614 5* 03PhiNotPi 5* (+203) 10 < 1501561472 0 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :koenigl: https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu < 1501561501 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1501562027 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, genuine spammers are back on the wiki... < 1501562054 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet I would be good at spamming the wiki. < 1501562066 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much I can get for it. < 1501562069 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. for a while. < 1501562091 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it didn't get through the new filter.) < 1501562122 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: how much will you pay me not to become an evil spammer and ruin the wiki for everyone twh < 1501562230 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll delay banning you for up to a week hth < 1501562312 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :does anybody know of any papers covering a dynamic succinct linked list implementation? < 1501562323 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the closest I can get is binary trees and squinting really hard. < 1501562332 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a succinct linked list? < 1501562342 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems kind of tricky. < 1501562375 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? succinct < 1501562376 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :succinct? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1501562396 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: lists that contain either empty lists or atoms that take up an amount of bits close to the minimum to represent them. < 1501562403 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg succinct < 1501562406 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still remain usable. < 1501562410 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1501562416 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: But they still have pointers between nodes? < 1501562422 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope. < 1501562451 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I came up with a static version a while back that can fit a lot within a single machine word. < 1501562460 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but now I'm searching for a dynamic version. < 1501562469 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the difference between succinct linked lists and succinct sequences? < 1501562484 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do they support sharing nodes or something? < 1501562507 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmm. alright, bear with me now. < 1501562522 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you have a list like [[],[],[]]. < 1501562560 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would you encode that so you conserve on space while retaining the same operations. < 1501562575 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :for traversal. not modification. < 1501562581 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A list of lists? < 1501562595 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep. just as an example. < 1501562603 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this an arbitrary tree or only depth 2? < 1501562629 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :any arbitrary list consisting of either nested lists or empty lists. < 1501562657 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would call that a tree. Where a tree is defined as a list of trees. < 1501562665 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure. < 1501562678 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway this is the old balanced parentheses thing, right? < 1501562684 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :correctamundo. < 1501562686 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What makes these linked lists? < 1501562710 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :closest two words I have for something like this. < 1501562747 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :could just use 'list'. < 1501562771 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why would you call a tree a list? < 1501562772 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, yeah, this is the nested parens problem. store opening and closing parens as bits. < 1501562780 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is the least fixed point of lists. < 1501562803 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"why would you call a tree of list." < 1501562807 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :*a list. < 1501562822 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :because... a list is a list of values, each of which may also be lists. < 1501562835 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure why you're getting hung up on that. < 1501562874 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you wanted me to specify "right-heavy binary trees" I could. < 1501562962 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/block14]]4 block10 02 5* 03Oerjan 5* 10blocked [[02User:Kutta10]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites < 1501562978 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, with the binary representation of a tree, it's hard to do arbitrary inserts without lots of operations being flung around at once. so I was wondering if there was a more dynamic method of storing them. < 1501563255 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: us haskellers get hung up on that because of all the nested "lists" that won't pass type checking as lists in haskell because they're actually trees hth < 1501563281 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(i forget, were you from PPCG) < 1501563288 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not. :P < 1501563304 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are quite a number of such challenges there. < 1501563317 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah. just a dude doing research. < 1501563336 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: How much overhead are you willing to accept? < 1501563357 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: for what? a dynamic representation? < 1501563361 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said "succinct" so I guess you want Z + o(Z) < 1501563373 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuh. also, I already have an encoding for static trees. < 1501563386 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :always saves one bit over the traditional parens representation. < 1501563394 0 :PattuX!uid129971@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gwvknqetcghudkqq QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1501563417 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just wondering about what a convenient alternative is for trees that support arbitrary insertion/manipulation. < 1501563610 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know much about dynamic succinct data structures unfortunately. I'd like to know more. < 1501563645 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But at least I understand the question now. < 1501563647 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it has anything to do with linked lists (I think linked lists are lists where each node has a link pointer to the next node). < 1501563663 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you can replace linked list with "collections of cons cells". :P < 1501563701 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, trees work. < 1501563707 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this has even less to do with binary trees than it does with lists. < 1501563722 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not.. really. < 1501563736 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering they're all equal in representation. if you think not, ask a lisper. :P < 1501563762 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a exoteric reduct game http://www.therottingcartridge.com/games/programming/ < 1501563815 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/upload14]]4 upload10 02 5* 03PhiNotPi 5* 10uploaded "[[02File:Qftarch01.png10]]" < 1501563831 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :@wn exoteric < 1501563832 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :*** "exoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)" < 1501563832 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :exoteric < 1501563832 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : adj 1: suitable for the general public; "writings of an exoteric < 1501563832 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : nature" [ant: {esoteric}] < 1501563868 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: TG < 1501563940 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ferdinand-Tönnies-Gesellschaft ? < 1501563989 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too Good < 1501564043 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :axtually I'm juxt bad at typeing < 1501564073 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are these broken keys? < 1501564098 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Booleans? < 1501564108 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, false booleans < 1501564165 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the pink thing is (==) and doesn't allow function arguments. < 1501564181 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :🎜 Take these broken keys. And learn to type again. 🎜 < 1501564246 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does this introduce callCC later? < 1501564267 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, once you unlock the hidden levels < 1501564339 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, 19 was the first slightly tricky one. < 1501564412 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you make this? < 1501564440 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I found it on LTU < 1501564571 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: You should extend it for linear types. < 1501564722 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be interesting < 1501564803 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Funge-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52617&oldid=52609 5* 03Btiffin2017 5* (+1769) 10/* Instructions (including Befunge-93 commands) */ < 1501564934 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: she'd be more the vicereine, i should think. < 1501564974 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm should that be reyne < 1501564983 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: am i missing a pun twh < 1501564996 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, just a gender hth < 1501565025 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you missing a pun twh < 1501565032 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably. < 1501565063 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not a very complicated one < 1501565079 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assumed you were just going from vicenarian. < 1501565094 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which isn't much of a pun. and not even cognate, i suspect. < 1501565105 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :assume again < 1501565108 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait, maybe it is. < 1501565233 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, doesn't seem to be cognate. < 1501565259 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1501565308 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot in good conscience swat for a pun that took me that long, sorry. < 1501565331 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What! < 1501565336 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about the pan? < 1501565462 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm afraid it doesn't pan out, either. < 1501565565 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? decadent < 1501565566 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a decadent is a ten-pronged rake < 1501565582 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`slwd decadent//s,.,A,;s,$,., < 1501565584 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :decadent//A decadent is a ten-pronged rake. < 1501565588 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew it. < 1501565623 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but did you manage to make a profit from your inside knowledge? < 1501565640 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, I don't play golf. < 1501565654 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shocking < 1501565927 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: How do you unlock the hidden levels? < 1501565997 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you invoke the continuation and restore to level 5 with continuations enabled < 1501566039 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, so you were joking? :-( < 1501566080 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sorry but I was, I'm going to design some levels and suggest continuations to andru < 1501566124 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/ < 1501566277 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was a fun game. < 1501567078 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is the bitcoin fork going? < 1501567768 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are graphics cards going to become affordable again < 1501567944 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07QFTASM14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52618 5* 03PhiNotPi 5* (+6860) 10created page < 1501567987 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :find out in 7 hours, 7 minutes and 7 seconds! < 1501568035 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20170801T1220&p0=1440&msg=Bitcoin+Cash+Hardfork < 1501568060 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07QFTASM14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52619&oldid=52618 5* 03PhiNotPi 5* (-2) 10fixed link format < 1501568977 0 :https___GK1wmSU!~deep-book@77.234.42.183 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501569010 0 :https___GK1wmSU!~deep-book@77.234.42.183 PART #esoteric : < 1501569214 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1501570841 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1501572060 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know this algorithm for converting a number into decimal? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Decimal_numbers < 1501572337 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501572343 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just use BCD. :P < 1501572448 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly for cases where conversion is needed. For many uses, BCD (or base 100 may be better, especially for Famicom which has no decimal mode) can be very helpful, but sometimes you will need conversion (such as if implementing Z-machine, for example). < 1501572477 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? packed BCD is pretty standard. < 1501572551 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Famicom and NES doesn't support the packed BCD arithmetic of 6502; that flag will be ignored (it still exists though, it just doesn't do anything). < 1501572583 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh shit, yeah. forgot about that. < 1501572608 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1501572609 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :man it has been a while.. < 1501572625 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at the last accessed date on his old NESASM... < 1501572712 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is what date? < 1501572768 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :January 13th, 2011. < 1501572782 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1501572878 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1501573238 0 :sdhand!~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko QUIT :Excess Flood < 1501573248 0 :sdhand!~sam@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1501573272 0 :sdhand!?@? NICK :Guest43396 < 1501573387 0 :Guest43396!~sam@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :Changing host < 1501573387 0 :Guest43396!~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko JOIN :#esoteric < 1501573387 0 :Guest43396!?@? NICK :sdhand < 1501573770 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1501573814 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501574052 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Funge-9814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52620&oldid=52617 5* 03Btiffin2017 5* (+0) 10/* Instructions, correct the stack pictures */ < 1501575078 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501576083 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :there will, in less than 5 hours, be two variant coins: Bitcoin Core, and Bitcoin Cash < 1501576112 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1501578480 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? bitcoin < 1501578482 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bitcoins are coins that have been drilled through with a bit, and can be strung together in long chains. This practice dates to ancient China, and the Chinese remain experts in bitcoin manufacturing. A chain can support up to 21 million coins before breaking. < 1501578950 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do large companies care about being influential in standard committees? < 1501578967 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :like google and facebook < 1501578971 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :why do they even care? < 1501579172 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :in IBM's case, an ultimately futile struggle to stem the tide of trigraph-haters < 1501579465 0 :izabera!~izabera@unaffiliated/izabera PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1501579577 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, it's rather cheap influence compared to, say, congressional lobbying < 1501580966 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1501581497 0 :btiffin!~chatzilla@CPE0c473de9ff81-CM0c473de9ff80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com QUIT :Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.93 [SeaMonkey 2.46/20170120202656] < 1501582283 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1501582830 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1501583089 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1501584372 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501584683 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1501584706 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501584760 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1501587536 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501588580 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501589164 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501590597 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.245.222.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: TOROIDAL CHICKEN < 1501592857 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501595474 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1501595489 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1501596046 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501596187 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1501596652 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501596701 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Here's a exoteric reduct game" => oh, will this become the next toy everyone in #esoteric tries, like that euclides compass and line game last time? < 1501596722 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still haven't figured out how to do the pentagon in 10 steps < 1501596733 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really like that ancient greek geometry game < 1501596750 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:617a:ba6:165c:b459 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1501596909 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c JOIN :#esoteric < 1501597307 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(trying that reduct game) huh what? I don't understand < 1501597350 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501597398 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@5.196.225.175 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501597435 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand how this game works < 1501597442 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it will become clear later < 1501597609 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, now I'm even more confused < 1501597754 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1501598348 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@5.196.225.175 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1501598495 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1501598515 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501598933 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I still don't understand what this game is about, even after beating lots of levels < 1501598991 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was about arbitrary changes in notation < 1501599056 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesthiswork: maybe < 1501599222 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand what it's about < 1501599231 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's basically like weird manual lambda calculus < 1501599259 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: but where's the lambda calculus part? I've seen lambdas, but no application expression. < 1501599305 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :You do application by hand by dropping things into the lambdas < 1501599326 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but there's no expression that does application. you can't have lambda calculus without that. < 1501599347 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, I haven't encountered such an expression up to where I'm at < 1501599358 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm playing level 69 now < 1501599498 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what? < 1501599662 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm at the end of the game, and I still don't understand it < 1501599709 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't get the point < 1501599817 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1501599831 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501599866 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I think the main thing which is confusing there is that you can't just leave something sitting in the input of a lambda without having it automatically reduce < 1501599975 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501599989 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe ais523 can make sense of it < 1501600004 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1501600014 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? euclid < 1501600016 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :euclid? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1501600079 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: context? < 1501600089 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or am I going to have to read the logs? :-( < 1501600130 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: doesthiswork brought up this game thingy http://www.therottingcartridge.com/games/programming/ < 1501600130 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: (re Brainfudge) I'm not sure that counts; at least, it's fairly different from what I had in mind < 1501600140 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played through the 72 levels, but still don't understand what it's about < 1501600146 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: can't really follow links like that at work < 1501600151 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can have a look tomorrow, perhaps? < 1501600163 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1501600166 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't know if it's about anything more than what is apparent < 1501600197 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess it does say "prototype" at the bottom < 1501600201 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe he'll change it later < 1501600213 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the subject of programming games, I used to like Rubicon (which is based on an esolang, http://esolangs.org/wiki/RUBE) < 1501600218 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I haven't played it in ages < 1501600234 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :being written as a Java applet isn't great for modern-day computers < 1501600236 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mentioned that euclid game that we played on this channel some years ago < 1501600254 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, the one about how to make a regular pentagon in ten of the game's steps, which I couldn't solve < 1501600288 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, is it a geometry game? < 1501600300 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is geometry somehow Turing-complete? < 1501600307 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it's not a geometry game < 1501600322 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just reminds me because it's a meme game on web someone thrown into #esoteric < 1501600338 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the same sort of abstract geeky game < 1501600359 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get really annoyed by the classification "meme game" < 1501600375 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people act like a game that becomes suddenly popular is necessarily bad as a result < 1501600380 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1501600382 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kind-of like hipsterism except it's mainstream < 1501600389 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it was popular on #esoteric < 1501600393 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not saying it's bad < 1501600404 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess I am < 1501600404 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1501600407 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are bad < 1501600416 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people normally use the phrase "meme game" to dismiss a game that's had a recent surge in popularity, though < 1501600430 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not bad because it's popular, but more like it's popular despite that it's bad, which is why I call it a meme game < 1501600444 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I am dismissing it, but not because it's popular < 1501600473 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1501600478 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're dismissing it, and it also happens to be popular? < 1501600505 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1501600526 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm dismissing it more than the geometry game, because I can't make sense of what it's about < 1501600574 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, " oh, is it a geometry game" was referring to the euclid thing, not the earlier topic of conversation < 1501600579 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need to be more precise in my pronouns < 1501600596 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the earlier game I can't really discuss because I have basically zero information about it and can't take a look at it directly until tomorrow < 1501600670 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1501600729 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not quite zero information, I know that a few #esotericers don't understand it, an URL, and the number of levels it has < 1501600772 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :I understand it < 1501600787 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what it is that wob_jonas is saying he doesn't understand about it. It's fairly straightforward. < 1501601680 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1501602264 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the way, ICFP contest http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/icfpcontest2017/ starts in less tha n3 days < 1501602272 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's on topic for #esoteric < 1501602400 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely < 1501602403 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be in topic, not just on topic < 1501602415 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to reduce the number of people who miss it < 1501602423 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good idea < 1501602475 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still no news about IOCCC < 1501602568 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :bad timing: http://www.cade-26.info/ < 1501602614 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess it just happens that both the ICFP contest and CADE are one month before ICFP. < 1501602638 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they scheduled one of the previous ICFP contests at the same time as a Harry Potter book release, making it a bad time for many people, even though the date for the latter was known ages ago. < 1501602664 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might or might not participate < 1501602675 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :participating will depend on a) me remembering to participate, b) me liking the task < 1501602692 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when I've participated in the past it's been solo, depending on what the task is it might make sense to get a #esoteric team together < 1501602747 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 TOPIC #esoteric :bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-08-01 < 1501602763 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at 12 pm UTC, annoyingly < 1501602768 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, these days they're increasingly making the task such that it's harder and harder to participate < 1501602770 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that means I'll miss the first few hours due to work < 1501602778 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1501602783 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :harder and harder to participate alone < 1501602794 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, 08-01? < 1501602802 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh wait < 1501602802 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the UMIX challenge was very parallelisable < 1501602807 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: wob_jonas got the wrong date < 1501602807 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 TOPIC #esoteric :bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-07-01 < 1501602840 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1501602843 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1501602845 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :2017-08-04, I'd guess? < 1501602851 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 TOPIC #esoteric :bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-08-04 < 1501602858 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, yes < 1501602901 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like I'll miss it entirely < 1501602904 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1501602947 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :why does it have to be a VM... and does the VM exploit vulnerabilities in Virtualbox or VMware or the lesser known ones (is Bochs still a thing? Qemu...) < 1501602989 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why does the VM have to be so large < 1501603000 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it doesn't have to be a VM. you can just compile your programs for a similar linux machine. they just make it a VM in case you're worried your program won't work in their setup. < 1501603007 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't actually need to use the VM. < 1501603015 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Debian used to have a version which ran off 1.44 MB of disk space < 1501603026 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what? no way < 1501603030 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they dropped that eventually to fit more programs in, but 5 GB is too much of a scale < 1501603039 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it was very cut down, I think < 1501603041 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, 3 MB, sure, but 1.44 MB? < 1501603047 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be misremembering < 1501603051 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's only a factor of 2 < 1501603058 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, a factor of 2 < 1501603082 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Debian is intentionally designed to be able to do a minimal install if you want < 1501603085 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :first disk is only half full and has the boot loader and kernel (initrd wasn't a thing back then), second floppy has root file system image < 1501603104 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I wasn't using Debian back then, but that's how small linux systems worked < 1501603107 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most programs are split between core functionality and larger data files, so you can install just the core functionality if you like < 1501603133 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I think the Debian install was just kernel + shell + dpkg + apt < 1501603139 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. just enough to be able to install more programs < 1501603140 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :they probably realized that computers dont have floppy drives any more. < 1501603149 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I own a USB floppy disk drive < 1501603157 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have even used it on occasion, although not for a long time < 1501603160 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, I've heard legends about Linux before Linux 2.0 where you could run a system on 1 MB of RAM, which frankly seems impossible to me. you need at least 2MB for Linux, 4MB if you actually want to run nontrivial programs. And that's for old versions. These days you need much more. < 1501603178 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i havent used one since like 2007 < 1501603187 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you need a libc too. libc was big even back then. < 1501603194 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: the 8086 can't address more than 1 MiB of RAM < 1501603242 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, but Linux was never intended to run without 386 32-bit protected mode, and it still almost doesn't run without it. I hear there are non-vanilla versions for cpus without memory protection, but not for x86. < 1501603252 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux was originally intended as an OS for 386, < 1501603256 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but later they made it portable < 1501603269 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(386 compatibles obviously) < 1501603287 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its instruction set can address almost 2 MiB if you use carrying rather than wrapping addition for segmentation calculations < 1501603307 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? no way < 1501603312 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how would that work? < 1501603333 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so a far pointer on x86 real mode is 32 bit long < 1501603342 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the address is calculated as (high 16 bits × 16) + low 16 bits < 1501603367 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which cpu generation are you talking about here? < 1501603379 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: 8086-compatibles < 1501603392 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but which generation? 8086 or 286 or 386? < 1501603427 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all of them use this syntax when running in real mode (which is meant to be 8086 compatible) < 1501603437 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the actual 8086 will do a wrapping calculation < 1501603451 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, and so will the 8086 I think < 1501603453 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1501603455 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the 80286, which has more address lines available, deos a carrying calculation < 1501603456 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 80286 < 1501603459 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1501603461 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1501603464 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm confused < 1501603470 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much address lines does the 286 have? < 1501603473 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so motherboards at the time had a configurable bit 20 of their address line < 1501603496 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 80286 can address 16 MiB in protected mode, so I guess 24 address lines? < 1501603515 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1501603561 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never really actually used a 286, I only read about them in books. The first computer we had at home was a 386-based PC with I think 8 MB of RAM, although I've seen older PCs elsewhere < 1501603578 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was quite a good machine at that time, the 386 was pretty new < 1501603643 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 286 never really caught on because its protected mode was really buggy / lacking in features < 1501603656 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1501603684 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses 16 bit addresses + fairly slow bank switching, which means that it can't easily access most of the memory that's available < 1501603700 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1501603719 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also you can't switch back to real mode without resetting the cpu < 1501603725 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1501603730 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they fixed all of that and more in the 386 < 1501603737 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it took surprisingly long for people to find the triple-fault-based method to do that < 1501603740 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is fairly clean and net < 1501603742 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*neat < 1501603748 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus made the cpu way more efficient < 1501603751 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and, incidentally, is still used by Linux as a last resort implementation of rebooting) < 1501603765 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if it can't reboot via ACPI like it'd like to) < 1501603769 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a triple-fault based method? nice < 1501603785 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they just used a small circuit on the motherboard < 1501603790 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the keyboard controller or something < 1501603847 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 386 is a great cpu. it actually has a data cache. that was a big innovation. < 1501603855 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously they didn't NEED a cache before that < 1501603856 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1501603861 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that was the original method discovered (i.e. using the keyboard controller to trigger the hardware reboot input) < 1501603865 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that allowed them to run the cpu so quickly < 1501603875 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :triple fault is much simpler, though, I wonder why they didn't think of it before screwing around with hardware < 1501603886 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was *discovered*? I assumed it was built into the motherboard deliberately < 1501603903 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I mean < 1501603911 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IBM were stuck trying to work around Intel's bugs < 1501603923 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they programmed their keyboard controller to be able to do reboots < 1501603933 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is one solution to the issue of "how can the processor reboot itself to get back into real mode" < 1501603943 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but you didn't really have to discover that. it's a well-known feature that the cpu can be reset in like four ways and one of them is a signal on a leg. < 1501603947 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they discovered the principle behind the solution, but still had to actually implement it using a custom keyboard controller < 1501603949 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ReeCoin up 7300% < 1501603952 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://twitter.com/WorldCoinIndex/status/892399569077776385 < 1501603957 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :REEEEEEEEE < 1501603965 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: altcoins are incredibly volatile < 1501603973 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but they need a completely new motherboard for 286 anyway < 1501603981 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and most of them are almost worthless, thus a small absolute change can lead to a large relative change < 1501604000 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right now everyone if panicky about the whole bit coin core bit coin cash split < 1501604045 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just run both chains and see which one ends up having more value? < 1501604060 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each bitcoin gets split into two, one on each system; their total value should add up to the original value of the coin < 1501604077 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people are doing that, but others are trying to arbitrage < 1501604102 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, they're run both. but it's a market, so they won't "just" run both and see, they want to predict the value to win huge < 1501604104 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arbitrage helps to cause convergence to a stable value < 1501604118 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: oh, I didn't realise there was an actual hard fork that had already happened < 1501604124 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it was still being discussed < 1501604127 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it hadn't happened yet < 1501604132 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but will very soon < 1501604133 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure < 1501604154 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, so soon people who are serious about that sort of thing have had to start preparation long ago < 1501605123 0 :jaboja64!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501605131 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for comparison, the last time the ICFP used a VM image, it was 639.1 MB < 1501605140 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501605146 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one's 5.3 GB < 1501605158 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oo < 1501605166 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's big. but like I said, you don't actually need it. < 1501605219 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they ask you to submit an executable, and they usually do, you probably need it for the final compile < 1501605223 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you certainly don't need to work on it < 1501605473 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you really need it. You just need any modern x86_64 linux system to compile on, and make sure you either include the required dynamical libraries or compile them statically into the program. < 1501605490 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure how libc works these days < 1501605562 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I understand why in normal production work you don't want to statically link libc to your programs, but in a competition thing like this it might be useful. < 1501605746 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :depending on how much of libc you need, normally you could statically link it < 1501605759 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, this particular purpose for the VM, compiling programs, has a big reason to want all of libc < 1501605765 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because compiled programs will likely want to link against it < 1501605768 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the only reason you even might need to statically link it is if you're using a later version of glibc than what's on their debian < 1501605832 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that isn't too likely, since they're using debian 9, which is recent < 1501605854 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'll get screwed up only if you use some gentoo or something with later libc < 1501605875 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then you could install a smaller installation of debian 9 (or 8) on x86_64 and compile on that < 1501606064 0 :jaboja64!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1501606128 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, the VM is failing to boot under qemu < 1501606137 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GRUB works, and Linux starts to load < 1501606147 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you have enough RAM? < 1501606155 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but after the "setting up initial RAMdisk" stage, the view returns to the original view as of boot, then it hangs < 1501606157 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does it fail? < 1501606168 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1501606182 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd guess it's a problem with the boot lodaer setup with your emulator then < 1501606197 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something < 1501606198 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, GRUB working is evidence that it at least doesn't fail in the early stages < 1501606212 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but grub has to load the initrd < 1501606225 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but that isn't a hard step or one I'd expect to fail < 1501606234 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1501606237 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1501606248 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug it and if it's their fault complain to them < 1501606309 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I'll even try to install the VM if I want to participate < 1501606318 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or download < 1501606393 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I think the issue is to do with memory < 1501606410 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my qemu can't give it more than half a gigabyte, but the implication in the notes is that it needs 4 gigabytes of memory < 1501606427 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :qemu actually segfaults trying to allocate 4G of memory < 1501606439 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if it's overflowing it to 0 bytes? < 1501606456 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, the implication in the notes is that they will give you 4G of memory for the contest, but it's a modern debian system which is terrible on machines with low amount of RAM so it might actually need 2G or something < 1501606475 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a recent enough version of qemu? < 1501606486 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever the most recent version in the Ubuntu stable repos is < 1501606505 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and your host is x86_64, right? < 1501606520 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :try giving it just one virtual cpu? < 1501606531 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that it should matter much < 1501606565 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even with just 512M it should get past the loading initrd stage < 1501606764 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :changing the number of CPUs doesn't help < 1501606851 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I suspect GRUB is running but failing to hand over to Linux < 1501606858 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this configuration, it's GRUB that loads the initrd < 1501606862 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me add some debug statements to the GRUB config < 1501606925 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, grub or the boot loader is always what loads the initrd. that's why it's called *init*rd. it would be just a ramdisk otherwise. < 1501606962 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Number Factory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52621&oldid=52544 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+86) 10 < 1501606970 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-178-004-083-030.178.004.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Quit: Terminated < 1501607012 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Qwertyu6314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52622&oldid=52519 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+8) 10 < 1501607029 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it seems to be working now, even though I didn't change anything other than dropping caches < 1501607037 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, I'm not aware of having changed anything < 1501607061 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what caches? < 1501607062 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm also not specifying the amount of memory to use; 0.6GB was not enough < 1501607068 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Linux virtual memory caches on the host < 1501607087 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf < 1501607112 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some web searches implied that QEMU incorrectly counts them as used memory when trying to work out how much memory is available < 1501607116 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it possible that you have ran out of memory on the host? < 1501607128 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah! < 1501607135 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it automatically set the memory size < 1501607145 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should try to set it explicitly < 1501607163 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but all the values were either too small, or else caused qemu to fail to allocate memory < 1501607166 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Number Factory14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52623&oldid=52621 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+162) 10 < 1501607180 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the remaining issue seems to be that, after logging in, all the filesystems are read-only < 1501607189 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's likely fixable with a ramdrive < 1501607200 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you're on a machine that doesn't have much resources, such as mine where I ran out of memory for ayacc, then you might be screwed anyway, because you shouldn't expect that a 5 GB disk sized debian system will be kind on memory use. < 1501607223 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that because the underlying virtual disk drives are read-only? < 1501607269 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, almost certainly < 1501607426 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, this works < 1501607428 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for C < 1501607476 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you compiled a hello world? < 1501607478 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1501607492 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I did at one point break my linux system such that that simple test failed < 1501607505 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was shortly before I reinstalled, and one of the last straws < 1501607515 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other was the man program no longer working < 1501607533 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was all my fault by the way < 1501607546 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the specifics, but I fiddled a lot with the system < 1501607553 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learned a lot though < 1501607609 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you the person who reimplemented core programs like cat and managed to break them in the process? or was that someone else? < 1501607620 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was someone else < 1501607755 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52624&oldid=52587 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+63) 10 < 1501607761 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:Qwertyu6314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52625&oldid=52622 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+0) 10 < 1501607829 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1501607835 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1501608071 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TheZipCreator 5* 10New user account < 1501608120 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1501608350 0 :staffehn!~quassel@2001:41d0:52:d00::1d3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1501608481 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow < 1501608492 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got nostalgic and started thinking about those old computers < 1501608531 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically the story is that the third computer we had at home was a Pentium that was my computer, running at the same time as the main computer (my father's computer), another Pentium < 1501608580 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that I still use that same PC, even though I've replaced the hardware and the operating system many times, but I never replaced both the operating system and a major hardware component at the same time, so I always had to keep the hostname < 1501608582 0 :staffehn!~quassel@2001:41d0:52:d00::1d3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501608621 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have backups sometimes local copies of lots of files from all the earlier operating systems < 1501608647 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I used to say that the operating system and each individual part of the hardware got replaced at least three times since < 1501608653 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I just realized that's not true < 1501608681 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the optical disk drive only got replaced twice, < 1501608695 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but when that computer was first set up, it didn't yet have an optical disk drive < 1501608713 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so getting that first CD drive probably counts as an extra occasion < 1501608719 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that means the balance is restored < 1501608749 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, I think even the desk has been replaced three times < 1501608781 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the monitor, I think, got replaced exactly three times: once to a newer crt, once to a small tft, and once to this big tft < 1501608824 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm really fuzzy with the history and I'm not sure how many times the motherboard and many other components were replaced, but I know it was at least three times each < 1501608847 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... the floppy drive might also be a bottleneck in fact < 1501608870 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both the 1.44 and the 1.2 floppy drive. I think I only had one 1.2 floppy drive and one or two 1.44 floppy drive < 1501608872 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn it < 1501608906 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't have a floppy drive in this machine anymore, so it's hard to notice < 1501608985 0 :staffehn!~quassel@2001:41d0:52:d00::1d3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1501609033 0 :staffehn!~quassel@2001:41d0:52:d00::1d3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501609045 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do I now have to buy two cheap floppy drives and throw one out after installing to the machine? probably no < 1501609634 0 :jaboja64!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501610538 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a kind of character coding for use with computer applications involving astronomy and/or astrology. < 1501610631 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are up to 1065353472 codepoints, and the first 128 codepoints are compatible with ASCII. < 1501610692 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1501610756 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Okay, one thing I don't understand is why this thing makes the notation for lambdas and conditionals worse halfway through < 1501611013 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the notation is getting more and more disgusting :) < 1501611943 0 :jaboja64!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1501612095 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501612457 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:1864:e2dc:dfb:64c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501613366 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-178-004-083-030.178.004.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1501613538 0 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-bvzinwbphflobxop QUIT :Excess Flood < 1501613570 0 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-nttsizgisacalxvp JOIN :#esoteric < 1501613960 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1501614506 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501614533 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07~-~!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52626&oldid=47106 5* 03Xav737 5* (+331) 10Add a summary area for the esolang < 1501614719 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: This sounds almost like giga-Unicode. :P < 1501614866 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: wait till the last few levels. I already didn't understand how come lists can always be extracted freely, even when they are the output of a computation, < 1501614907 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in the final few levels suddenly you'll be able to remove the condition from the conditionals, even if that conditional is the output of a computation (like a lambda) < 1501614924 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I really don't understand how building stuff works in this game. < 1501614925 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yeah, I finished it, and the notation was really dumb at the end, I guess they want it to look like ruby or something? < 1501614939 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, at some point it changes the notation to the atoms to something horrible. < 1501614946 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: h8r < 1501614953 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The notation is pretty silly but it doesn't matter. < 1501614968 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: maybe they want to make it look like *something*, but not ruby < 1501614977 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what game? that lambda game? < 1501614980 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's not really the notations that bother me. < 1501614981 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I just don't know why they would start with better notation, and then make it worse gradually < 1501614985 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: yes < 1501615011 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Would it be better if you could place an argument on a lambda and only click it to beta reduce? < 1501615047 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the rules about how you can manipulate the components are pretty arbitrary < 1501615058 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the thing about being able to unpack lists < 1501615065 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :That seems okay to me < 1501615075 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just an arbitrary power that you're granted < 1501615103 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1501615107 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :/context < 1501615119 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: I don't think so. Even now in some tasks you need too many clicks to reduce expressions that should just auto-reduce. < 1501615173 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, found it. < 1501615175 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I thought it was kind of interesting to have the power to avoid reduction and decompose things < 1501615197 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: really my main complaint is that we never see an application expression < 1501615210 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: I don't quite understand those null things. < 1501615218 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Just bad notation. < 1501615228 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: but you don't seem to NEED reduction. And I think I understand the null thing < 1501615251 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :They want it to look like a ternary operator for some reason, but it's not actually a ternary operator < 1501615266 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :So they introduce null there (which actually always occurs on the false branch of the thing) < 1501615271 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This might be inspired by Dragonbox. At least it has some similarities. < 1501615290 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically a lambda can have multiple return values, which makes sense even if few languages have it, and then it freely allows you to compose any output to any input without building blocks < 1501615293 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: I was hoping they'd introduce callCC < 1501615307 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we'd need a fucking function composition first < 1501615310 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, this style of game could be much better with different primitives < 1501615314 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the part I really don't understand is the map thing < 1501615323 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: sure. like the crocodile game, but more powerful. < 1501615324 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I wanted to make a game like this but in the version I had in mind you build more complicated expressions without reducing them all the time. < 1501615329 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know the crocodile game, right? < 1501615332 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1501615334 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alligator eggs? < 1501615352 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Alligator eggs < 1501615358 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Professor Twist could not but smile. / "You mean," he said, "a crocodile." < 1501615358 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that yes. I'm in Europe, so I can only go with crocodiles < 1501615381 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? < 1501615427 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Europe doesn't really have aligators. It has crocodiles, which are nicer, and even those are really far from Hungary, I only see them in zoos. < 1501615471 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're in Eurasia, which has Chinese alligators. < 1501615484 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you can talk about dragon games even though dragons are extinct in Europe. < 1501615499 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but Africa has crocodiles, and it's much closer < 1501615532 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Africa also has elephants. Why not talk about elephant eggs? < 1501615534 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :are they extinct or are they just hiding? even so, I don't use Chinese dragons for dragon games < 1501615573 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: crocodiles have big gaping mouths, you can draw them easily as swallowing eggs or other crocodile families, and even draw them to look similar to a lowercase lambda < 1501615588 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be much stranger for an elephant to eat other elephant families < 1501615602 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.qu-i-x.com/crocodile.html < 1501615614 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :space games are quite popular these days < 1501615622 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could set it in space, with spacesuits < 1501615682 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jafet: Why not set it in a factory with nuclear waste containers? < 1501615818 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: anyway, the building rules indeed start to make no sense when map are introduced. you can map an expression that has holes, and get expressions with multiple holes. how does that even work? < 1501615828 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, maybe that already didn't make sense with the lambdas < 1501615830 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1501615872 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The holes vs. lambdas thing didn't quite make sense to me in the first place. < 1501615877 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1501615895 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1501615900 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/1:galaxy//A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. \ canada//Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. \ turing complete//You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount. \ cod//Cod is a fish's favourite fish person shooter. \ watch//Too late! < 1501615901 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:~-~!14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52627&oldid=39430 5* 03Xav737 5* (+708) 10/* Dropping the requirement of bignums */ new section < 1501615910 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might be overthinking it? < 1501615930 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like, keeping track of scope or anything < 1501615953 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:~-~!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52628&oldid=52627 5* 03Xav737 5* (+78) 10/* Dropping the requirement of bignums */ < 1501615972 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits canada < 1501615973 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :level 35 is also strange < 1501615980 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachäf shachäf boil̈y boil̈y boil̈y < 1501615987 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you get free variables you can drag there < 1501616000 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and insert to a lambda, and suddenly they're bound to it < 1501616017 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess that's the distinction between holes and lambdas. < 1501616046 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that was the only level where you can do that, the theme doesn't get explored, and we never find out what the rules are or how alpha-reduction works < 1501616086 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, you also get free variables in level 7 < 1501616108 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also prefer the original syntax for "lists" which makes them look more like sets < 1501616123 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07~-~!14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52629&oldid=52626 5* 03Xav737 5* (+30) 10 < 1501616128 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think you never get enough building blocks to witness alpha reduction, do you? < 1501616145 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's nothing really to suggest that sets/lists have any order to them < 1501616166 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's only ever x < 1501616175 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're multisets. < 1501616182 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in at least one level the order is required. < 1501616193 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :...But you can always take them apart and put them back together so it doesn't mean much. < 1501616196 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, multisets / bags < 1501616200 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: yes, that was strange, but I think there's only one or two tasks where that actually matters, the ones that use both lists and equal, and at that point you get the bracket notation < 1501616222 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, which level required something about order? < 1501616241 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cale: let me find that < 1501616255 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks like 54 < 1501616269 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 < 1501616278 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1501616285 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1501616291 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 49 < 1501616299 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 and 49 surely don't < 1501616300 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 requires order? < 1501616303 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:ec9f:b198:95c:15e7:364c PRIVMSG #esoteric :54 does < 1501616305 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, 49 doesn't require it < 1501616320 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how to make order matter in 48 or 49 < 1501616323 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think 48 has solutions and non-solutions that differ only by order in lists < 1501616326 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :49 doesn't < 1501616346 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how. < 1501616353 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1501616354 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :([star,star] ==) is pre-bound < 1501616376 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, you're right < 1501616379 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :48 doesn't require order < 1501616562 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:1206:45b8:4a31:fe:7861:5ed:8fe6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501616581 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I think order might matter for level 51, let me try that < 1501616629 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wtf < 1501616720 0 :PattuX!uid129971@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cazgreovxjmkixak JOIN :#esoteric < 1501616724 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#51 seems to claim that ([star, (false?$hole:null)] == [(false?$hole:null),star]) evaluates to true < 1501616726 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does that work? < 1501617017 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you did that differently... I compared two stars and erased a bag containing four stars. < 1501617020 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :65 is the other level where order matters < 1501617029 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: sure, that's the easy solution < 1501617055 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the thing is that nulls disappear completely < 1501617057 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so because of 54, the goal definitely cares about order < 1501617076 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but let me test if the == operator cares about the order in 65 < 1501617102 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, 54 doesn't let me test that < 1501617168 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case, I agree that it introduces ugly notation for no good reason. < 1501617187 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, then I think 51 is the only level where you can detect whether == cares about list order < 1501617227 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't understand the part where you can sometimes evaluate lambdas and some other expressions even if the arguments have holes < 1501617237 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's so strange, and I don't understand what the meaning is supposed to be < 1501617243 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how do you do that in programming? < 1501617293 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a bit strange that 51 lets you evaluate (false?$hole:null) < 1501617365 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501617371 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The way a conditional can return variable number of return values is strange, but technically you can imagine like you always get a list of the variable arity they output (like in scheme) and as a concession to easy playing the game, you can freely unpack and repack lists, sort of < 1501617383 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't quite make sense, but it's not the most disturbing thing at first about the game < 1501617383 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@2a02:1206:45b8:4a31:fe:7861:5ed:8fe6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1501617451 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the end, the whole game is so strange I can't make much sense of it, but I'll see what ais says because he knows more about strange logic systems < 1501617479 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(logic systems in the sense like modal logic and linear logic and use-once variables etc) < 1501617713 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, #51 also says that [true,star] == [star,true] < 1501617726 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you've probably found out < 1501617743 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh! I haven't checked that. good idea. < 1501617835 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the items in the bag aren't arranged nicely after the 6th one, sad :) < 1501617859 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well after a while it's hard to display stuff on the screen < 1501617875 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bags also don't get nicely arranged when the contained elements are large in screen space < 1501617881 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but up to 9 is still easy < 1501618702 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:1864:e2dc:dfb:64c3 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1501619062 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501619359 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501619464 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1501619470 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :_unidecode ᠍ < 1501619474 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1501619480 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode ᠍ < 1501619480 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+0020 SPACE] [U+180D MONGOLIAN FREE VARIATION SELECTOR THREE] < 1501619976 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA < 1501619982 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHYYYYYYY < 1501620528 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what why? < 1501620551 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1849@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.73 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must be missing the context < 1501620729 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501621511 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1501622444 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Funge-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52630&oldid=52620 5* 03Btiffin2017 5* (+546) 10/* Examples, add Rock Scissors Paper */ < 1501622580 0 :Naya!~Naya@178.197.235.12 JOIN :#esoteric < 1501622600 0 :Naya!~Naya@178.197.235.12 QUIT :Quit: -a- IRC for Android 2.1.35 < 1501622721 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Funge-9814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52631&oldid=52630 5* 03Btiffin2017 5* (+7) 10/* Instructions */ < 1501623044 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Funge-9814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52632&oldid=52631 5* 03Btiffin2017 5* (+0) 10/* Instructions */ < 1501623782 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1501624257 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501624753 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1501624932 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1501624962 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501625365 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1501625809 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1501626303 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501627131 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1501628065 0 :btiffin!~chatzilla@CPE0c473de9ff81-CM0c473de9ff80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1501628225 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1501628245 0 :btiffin!~chatzilla@CPE0c473de9ff81-CM0c473de9ff80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :To the Funge-98 experts in the crowd? I've tried FBBI rcfunge and cfunge, the Input Character function is buffered. For a proper Play again? prompt is it wise to spin on ~ eating newlines? Or are there better options for getting a 'yn' answer that is to be repeated after the next round? < 1501628255 0 :Jafet!~jafet@unaffiliated/jafet JOIN :#esoteric < 1501628306 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1501628401 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1501628898 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1501629892 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1501630165 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Funge-9814]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52633&oldid=52632 5* 03Btiffin2017 5* (+293) 10/* Rock Scissors Paper, on 3; updated to ask play again? */ < 1501631068 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1501631075 0 :rdococ!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1501631076 0 :rdococ!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com QUIT :Changing host < 1501631076 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ JOIN :#esoteric < 1501631163 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Funge-9814]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52634&oldid=52633 5* 03Btiffin2017 5* (-32) 10/* Rock Scissors Paper, on 3 */ < 1501631868 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric