< 1502496590 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1502496610 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Client Quit < 1502498372 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1502499897 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-654-1-74-48.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1502500675 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1502502079 0 :ATMunn!?@? NICK :the_moon_in_ksp < 1502502282 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-odwsbipaopziteaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1502504399 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* 10New user account < 1502504466 0 :the_moon_in_ksp!?@? NICK :ATMunn < 1502504685 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52699&oldid=52692 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+312) 10/* Introductions */ < 1502504717 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52700&oldid=52699 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+105) 10/* Introductions */ < 1502504865 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:HereToAnnoy14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52701 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+23) 10Created page with "What should I put here?" < 1502505318 0 :augur_!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1502506331 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1502506488 0 :augur!~augur@162.217.73.146 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502506737 0 :augur!~augur@162.217.73.146 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1502506914 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1502507181 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502510638 0 :MrRoboto!?@? NICK :GeekDude < 1502511825 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1502514345 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there a faster way of dealing with sign-magnitude on a computer that doesn't use sign-magnitude? < 1502514404 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :faster than what? < 1502514471 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Than always dealing with the sign and magnitude separately (which does work, but is there a better way?) < 1502514536 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure, what does java do? < 1502514577 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1502514600 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, I mean specifically for integers; floating-point is already sign-magnitude) < 1502514618 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, kind of; it is sign-fraction-exponent-magnitude) < 1502514640 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not just do regular two's compliment arithmetic. < 1502514682 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mainly in case you are working with data or programs that use sign-magnitude, such as if you are implementing MIX, which uses sign-magnitude. < 1502514701 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, never mind about java, not sure why I thought java did weird stuff with ints, maybe I was thinking of floats < 1502514702 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1502514708 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1502514723 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :hasn't been long enough since I've programmed in java < 1502514746 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it doesn't really stop you from doing regular integer arithmetic. just different wrapping/overflow conditions. < 1502514774 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Assignless14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52702&oldid=52678 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+17) 10 < 1502514806 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I suppose so. < 1502514853 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although there still may be some other considerations with the sign < 1502514882 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as? < 1502514925 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I hope you're storing those numbers as native binary and not as a single bool + n-bit integer. < 1502514989 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even so, it is necessary to keep track of negative zero and positive zero < 1502514996 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HI9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52703&oldid=51373 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+141) 10Arbitrary_effect_at_an_arbitrary_point < 1502515007 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52704&oldid=52694 5* 03LyricLy 5* (+9) 10/* L */ < 1502515013 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HI9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52705&oldid=52703 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+1) 10 < 1502515019 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. but that still lies on underflow/overflow conditions. < 1502515051 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning when a negative zero is added to some positive number, as some positive zero is added to a negative. < 1502515056 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess. < 1502515127 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Ly14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52706&oldid=52689 5* 03LyricLy 5* (+110) 10/* Interpreters */ < 1502515205 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HI9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52707&oldid=52705 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-9) 10 < 1502515229 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HQ9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52708&oldid=52477 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+93) 10 < 1502515237 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The esolang wiki article about "MIX (Knuth)" describes what happens in this case on MIX, at least. (Other things using sign-magnitude might do differently maybe) < 1502515300 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know if MIXPC is actually doing it correctly; if it is wrong, I will fix it) < 1502515445 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But I think the rule is basically like: If x+y=0 then the result has the same sign as x. For multiplication and division the sign of the result is already unambiguous anyways) < 1502515528 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07MIX (Knuth)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52709&oldid=52696 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+3) 10 < 1502515651 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HI9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52710&oldid=52707 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+415) 10quines < 1502515692 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HI9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52711&oldid=52710 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+73) 10 < 1502515795 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:HI9+14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52712&oldid=51381 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+236) 10 < 1502515805 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:HI9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52713&oldid=52712 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+79) 10 < 1502516078 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07HI9+14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52714&oldid=52711 5* 03Rdococ 5* (+373) 10more quines < 1502516882 0 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1502517502 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I invented a few new kind of astrological house system, such as "Hemisphere-Null" system, which is similar to the "Null" (or "Aries") system, but the houses are flipped in the southern hemisphere. < 1502517720 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you like this? < 1502520736 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ JOIN :#esoteric < 1502520818 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1502521267 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, why am I so scared to talk here? < 1502521341 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know? < 1502521540 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp scar < 1502521541 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :intelligence:Intelligence is a scarce resource that is distributed by the CIA. \ ß:ß is not a beta. It's a "scharfes S", aka s with a scarf. \ the universe:The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. Escardó proved that it was indiscreet. < 1502521572 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a mystery. < 1502521589 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes we mock people. < 1502521688 0 :Gregor!dlopen@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Quit: Coyote finally caught me < 1502521703 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still hunting for an original concept. Am I going about this whole esolanging thing wrong? < 1502521814 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends whether you intend to make only the original one or to just make it anyways regardless of that, I suppose. (Or, do something in between.) < 1502521938 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: "1) Watch everything, read everything, and especially read outside your subject -- you should be importing, not recycling." from https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/words-from-the-master.html seems relevant < 1502521993 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that too < 1502522001 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in almost all cases, inspiration is taking a couple of ideas and combining them in a new way... which means you need to learn about the existing ideas first. < 1502522586 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: don't fear looking stupid. < 1502522610 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I look stupid every time I type something or share some weird thing I wrote. < 1502522625 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: When I look back on what past me has added to the wiki, I faceplant. < 1502522644 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh. it's ideas. < 1502522666 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :some may like them, some may not. point is they're yours and they reflect your preferences. < 1502522672 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... whether it works out or not, I have an idea in my head right now (if you want to hear about it). < 1502522689 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, it's late and I have some booze. hit me. < 1502522756 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :K. The idea is that there would be no subroutines; only coroutines. Subroutines would be simulated using a while (true) loop and a call to yield() at the end of each iteration of that loop. < 1502522785 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh oh oh. I have done this. < 1502522814 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather than calling a subroutine, you would pass parameters to and resume the coroutine. < 1502522876 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: so, what do you think? < 1502522921 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an interesting concept. I experimented with it for something like a tuplespace. < 1502523034 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gist was you'd have a large what was basically an assembly program, yet execution was based on coroutines, so that segments of the program would fall through to other segments in sequence. each segment would search for matching tuples in the tuplespace and work on them if it found them, else it would drop to the next segment, in an infinite loop. "yield" was essentially putting tuples back into the < 1502523034 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :tuplespace. < 1502523062 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this way it could be seen as multiple agents working on a shared blackboard. it works well, but only if you have a decent model of execution backing it. < 1502523076 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have some python code if you wanna see it. < 1502523097 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to see it. < 1502523139 0 :Gregor!dlopen@71.19.155.102 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502523182 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ptpb.pw/urGZ/python < 1502523212 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I treat all my python files as sort of scratch files. they are not pretty. < 1502523215 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this is turing complete. < 1502523242 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is not complete in documentation, though. if you scroll down to the bottom you can see some code. < 1502523266 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's seen as a linear sequence of instructions but the way the matches are set up, you either jump back to a previous statement or fall through. < 1502523279 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of like... a declarative assembly language, if you wanna read it from a moving car. < 1502523486 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh... okay... < 1502523518 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is it worked pretty well. the yields were implicit. < 1502523537 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning you didn't have to do the windows 3.1 thing of giving CPU time to something. < 1502523673 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the advantages of that method is that you don't need a stack to do anything. functions that you define, or subroutines as you call them, are _always running_, searching for work to do and where to send the results. < 1502523767 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd be interesting to see an esolang that utilized that model. < 1502523971 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I barely understand the model myself. < 1502524043 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :think of it like this. you have chunks of code, whatever they may be, that represent some functionality of your program. say for example a square function, or something that computes raising a number to a power. < 1502524087 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so one chunk may be one function, one chunk may be another. instead of having a single entry point to your program, and a cursor racing back and forth between subroutine calls and the call stack... < 1502524123 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have no call stack. the cursor zips linearly around. you can still jump to instructions, sure, but you eventually have to fall through to other chunks of code. what you do differently is you have a sort of mailbox/work order system. < 1502524156 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you say "I am from function Foo, I am requesting a result from Bar with these parameters. I'm going to send it to Bar's mailbox. Please post the result with my name on it afterwards, so I can pick it up." < 1502524182 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you yield. if no other functions have work, they simply yield. < 1502524186 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1502524213 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Umm... okay? < 1502524216 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Bar will go search in its mailbox and say "oh wow I have a letter. oh it's from Foo. cool I'm going to post the result of me mangling this value or whatever back in his mailbox." < 1502524234 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and eventually execution will trace back to Foo, he'll receive the work. < 1502524284 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Again, I'm not sure... < 1502524383 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's kind of like standard coroutines only, like I said, yields are implicit, as are entry points. a segment can pause and resume because it can save its work in its own mailbox, and other segments can send stuff to its mailbox so it can act as a function/subroutine. < 1502524401 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds a lot like the actor model erlang has, actually. < 1502524411 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a blackboard system attached. < 1502524461 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me, it sounds like it could be an object-oriented system. < 1502524472 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :As in, objects sending messages to eachother. < 1502524485 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly can! work at your chosen level of abstraction. :) < 1502524581 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I was implementing this for a game, so I'd be writing game objects in that style. < 1502524592 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you really aren't that far off the mark. < 1502524618 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd also like an opinion on the concept of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Assignless - at the moment, its syntax is borrowed from C/C++ but it has no actual assignment operation. < 1502524652 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. like a functional language. < 1502524671 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess, but it is imperative......is it? < 1502524677 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, it's imperative. < 1502524693 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the fact that you don't do mutable assignment. < 1502524724 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just declare values, and code that acts on values. they don't need names attached to them. < 1502524752 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess... < 1502524790 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the dots? < 1502524824 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to be very uncertain. < 1502524861 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :uncertainty is the first step towards certainty. < 1502524878 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Odd, "#input"? I don't remember what that # was for. < 1502524888 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Assignless14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52715&oldid=52702 5* 03Rdococ 5* (-1) 10 < 1502524911 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ohh, I see now. < 1502524914 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :judging from the syntax, a comment. < 1502524921 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :(forall a b. (Dim a, Dim b) => Layer a b -> v a x -> v b x) -> v a x -> Network a b -> v a x < 1502524935 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the most frustratingly slightly awkward type signature I've written in a while < 1502524936 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :neural nets in haskell? :P < 1502524948 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah! That's what I'm trying to do < 1502524952 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sweet. < 1502524965 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: # is used for comments, yes, but I was talking about the line "if (step < #input) {". < 1502524981 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :rdococ: yeah, I was wondering if you meant to comment it out or something. < 1502525014 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I guess so, but "if (step < " doesn't seem to be a very useful line to me. < 1502525021 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. < 1502525064 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bit of a cliffhanger < 1502525076 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode, I work for a company that writes neural net compilers and I want to get a feel for how it all works < 1502525101 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: huh. interesting. done anything with integer-only NNs? < 1502525166 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode, I don't think so, I'm afraid < 1502525184 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there's no real reason why we couldn't < 1502525209 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're mainly intended for systems with small memory footprints but for large-scale ops they couldn't hurt. < 1502525229 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it fits, but we mostly use half-width floats < 1502525259 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe. the main strength was also the simplicity in implementation. no need to mess with floating point numbers for devices that lacked an FPU. :P < 1502525289 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :From the sound of it, they're not out of our remit < 1502525307 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/9274.pdf some literature if you're morbidly curious. < 1502525317 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting that you choose haskell though. what brought that on? < 1502525342 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, I just joined < 1502525350 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you mean me personally? < 1502525355 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuh! < 1502525358 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like to use Haskell as much as I can < 1502525370 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joined this company because I heard that they use Haskell < 1502525381 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's the language I know best < 1502525394 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1502525399 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice. I don't think I've ever seen a NN libarary for haskell... < 1502525415 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no time like the present. though I agree, that is an awkward type signature. :P < 1502525428 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like there's a few on Hackage < 1502525437 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :@type foldr < 1502525439 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b < 1502525445 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's what the type signature wants to be < 1502525515 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to make a type-safe-as-possible feed forward network < 1502525569 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's going to be a fair bit awkward but I'm doing this for fun mostly < 1502525605 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'s all that matters in the end. < 1502525655 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-odwsbipaopziteaf QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1502525705 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :feedForward sigmoid = foldNetwork (\l i -> sigmoid <$> weights l !* i - biases l) < 1502525710 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how neat that is < 1502525774 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn. < 1502526676 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I've defined an analogous function to mapAccumL, I'm going to try and figure out backpropogation < 1502527940 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1502528310 0 :g0d355__!~lmao@104.131.75.159 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502529203 0 :btiffin!~chatzilla@CPE0c473de9ff81-CM0c473de9ff80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1502529786 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502530599 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would it be a good idea to use "function" to refer to functions that can't form closures, and "closure" to refer to those that can? < 1502531205 0 :zseri!4d16fd5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.22.253.95 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502531343 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1502531575 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1502531904 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1502532660 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: One other idea I had was different flavours of function: @funcs inherit their scope from their caller, rather than their creator (that is, no closures), &funcs have /no/ scope of their own - all variables they define can be accessible from after the function is called, and ^funcs force their caller to return when they return. < 1502532679 0 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ PRIVMSG #esoteric :They would be used in defining custom control structures. < 1502532990 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1502533070 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1502533141 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:4000:46b5:9431:1b71:eacd:72f6 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502533400 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:4000:46b5:9431:1b71:eacd:72f6 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1502533527 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting concept, but alas it is far too late for me to even consider the ramifications. < 1502533548 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :head go on pillow now. sweet dreams. < 1502533824 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1502536120 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1502536701 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502536724 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am cutting the book from the cover right now. And AAAAAAA IT HURTS ME INSIDE SO MUCH even though I know it's the right thing to do rationally. < 1502537198 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1502537331 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-654-1-74-48.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1502537795 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1502538311 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:c50e:c55e:2986:6928 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502538573 0 :btiffin!~chatzilla@CPE0c473de9ff81-CM0c473de9ff80.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PART #esoteric : < 1502540056 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1502540633 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:c50e:c55e:2986:6928 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1502543040 0 :ybden!ybden@unaffiliated/ybden QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1502543105 0 :ybden!ybden@unaffiliated/ybden JOIN :#esoteric < 1502544303 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1502546425 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502546997 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1502547200 0 :HTTP_____GK1wmSU!~DEEP-BOOK@a7.40.17c6.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1502547216 0 :HTTP_____GK1wmSU!~DEEP-BOOK@a7.40.17c6.ip4.static.sl-reverse.com PART #esoteric : < 1502548085 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1502548250 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502548341 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1502550102 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qwwtaakjrqpiygis JOIN :#esoteric < 1502550590 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Assignless14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52716 5* 03Zseri 5* (+154) 10Created page with "Assignless looks like a more functional version of C. Is it (pure) functional? ~~~~" < 1502551641 0 :boily!~alexandre@24.225.177.250 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502551731 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1502552945 0 :boily!~alexandre@24.225.177.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1502552950 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:numbers//Numbers: 0, 848, 1344, 1696, 1969, 2192, _, 2544, 2688, 2817, _, 3040, _, _, 3313, 3392, ... \ `whoops//`whoops is a repluralizer. \ qdb//qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat \ sleep//Sleep is for the weak. \ ping//Ping is a Peking < 1502552952 0 :boily!~alexandre@24.225.177.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1502552953 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:Duck H4XX0R who amuses himself by making people's IRC connections timeout. < 1502552984 0 :boily!~alexandre@24.225.177.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote some.*thing < 1502552986 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :48) both of you, quit it with the f-bombs. kaelis: what's the matter? something censoring stuff you're interested in? \ 73) Making a small shrine to Lawlabee in my basement is something I should get around to at some point. \ 96) AnMaster: to any airbus plane. 3 passengers sadly died the most awesome thing e < 1502554731 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:HereToAnnoy14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52717&oldid=52701 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+2) 10 < 1502555556 0 :boily!~alexandre@24.225.177.250 QUIT :Quit: KERNAL CHICKEN < 1502555607 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Assignless14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52718&oldid=52715 5* 03Zseri 5* (-26) 10remove unneeded returns < 1502555977 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Assignless14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52719&oldid=52718 5* 03Zseri 5* (-44) 10remove semicolons after braces < 1502556183 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1502556337 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502556388 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar eddf < 1502556388 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :EDDF 121520Z 21009KT 9999 -RA FEW010 SCT020 BKN026 17/14 Q1018 NOSIG < 1502556409 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems plausible. < 1502556412 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar lowi < 1502556412 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOWI 121520Z 08004KT 040V120 9999 FEW025 BKN075 16/11 Q1022 NOSIG < 1502557544 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:4000:46b5:e5b1:9fcf:3d1a:341c JOIN :#esoteric < 1502557802 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:4000:46b5:e5b1:9fcf:3d1a:341c QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1502558478 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1502558821 0 :boily!~alexandre@24.225.177.250 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502559079 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1502559438 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1502559498 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Ans14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52720&oldid=52418 5* 03Zseri 5* (+1) 10fix 'dead link' note < 1502561036 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1502562378 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1502562697 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1502564059 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1502564584 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1502564602 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just trying to look for a quick solution, how do you guys limit UMLbox's disk space on HackEgo? < 1502565422 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1502566108 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think we have limits on total disk space, though we do set ulimit -f 10240 (i.e., RLIMIT_FSIZE of 10 megs) to limit the maximum size of created files. < 1502566196 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you wanted a hard upper bound, Linux does have filesystem quotas, or you could just have the root on a filesystem of limited size. The failure mode of that might not be terribly great if exceeded, though. < 1502566451 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mk. im working with a box i cant change the kernel or software on, so ulimit will have to do for now < 1502566497 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well i can change software, root, but cant edit disk to make a new limited partition even if i wanted to) < 1502566644 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can make a file you loop-mount as a block device. Either inside or outside the UML. < 1502566672 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i never thought of that < 1502566702 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98980.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1502566707 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, as i dont need it to be permanant, i could probably use a tmpfs < 1502566827 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502567147 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502567244 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe other elements aren't patented because the guys who patented tungsten has also patented the method of patent trolling by patenting chemical elements and natural mineral resources, and they're lashing out on other patents of elements using that. < 1502567356 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :why even allow patenting something that is part of everyday life that we cant help? :V < 1502567371 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :because sooner or later someone is gonna patent air and make people pay fees to breath < 1502567473 0 :boily!~alexandre@24.225.177.250 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@metar CYQB < 1502567473 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :CYQB 121800Z 05006KT 040V110 25SM FEW010 FEW014 BKN031 BKN070 21/17 A2982 RMK SF1SC2SC4AC1 SF TR TCU EMBD SLP101 DENSITY ALT 1100FT < 1502567517 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Is there a faster way of dealing with sign-magnitude on a computer that doesn't use sign-magnitude?" => I'm not sure. There's probably not too much to gain over keeping the sign and magnitude separate if you do have to keep track of the sign of zeros. There might be some tricks, so you could check Hacker's Delight and Knuth vol 4 for ideas < 1502567518 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1502567601 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: keeping the sign and magnitude separately definitely helps with at least MIX memory words, which are often accessed as partial fields < 1502567645 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes, and I have certainly thought of that < 1502567665 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which is one reason why I had decided to keep them separately < 1502567815 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some temporary values, you can use different formats of course, such as how you already do with addresses < 1502567966 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, MIXPC stores the address as a plain number instead of MIX bytes, but still keeps the sign separately. However, an implementation that supports only binary MIX could store all five fields in a single 30-bit value, for example if implementing MIX on MMIX. < 1502568107 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1502568110 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, the MIXASM program included with MIXPC stores MIX word values internally as the sign and five fields in decimal, together with another number whose bits specify how the fields are divided; if a "BASE 100" command is omitted in the input file, it uses that data to output a deck that is independent of byte size. < 1502568650 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502568727 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 QUIT :Client Quit < 1502568761 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502568777 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello < 1502568803 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I may have posted some message while you are not on temporarily < 1502568828 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But of course it is commonly what is happen on the IRC anyways, I think) < 1502568874 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: in particular, you can't easily store mix words as doubles, because the IEEE 754 rules handle signed zeros differently than the MIX addition. < 1502568915 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also extracting fields from such a representation would be very difficult < 1502568925 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes, I can see < 1502569341 0 :D33P-B00K!~PYATIBRAT@91.233.116.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502569465 0 :D33P-B00K!~PYATIBRAT@91.233.116.245 PART #esoteric : < 1502569541 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least, on MMIX, it look like bitwise complement by the sign bit (if the number is a 32-bit number rather than a 64-bit number) by MXOR < 1502569560 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know if it is help though, or what kinds of programs it might help with if at all anyways) < 1502569941 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1502570399 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1502570600 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502570703 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, just one last question: Which kernel do you use for umlbox? < 1502571205 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I don't really maintain the bot. The test installation I have locally uses linux-3.7.10. < 1502571226 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The one on HackEgo seems to be 3.13.0. < 1502571294 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mk < 1502571844 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1502571919 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you know that the latest version of MIXPC also has a new I/O unit 36 which is the television (in addition to fixing several mistakes, and adding the feature to set a breakpoint)? < 1502572281 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: can't the teletype output already be connected to a CRT? < 1502572293 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the computer itself doesn't have to know the difference < 1502572373 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor do programs have to know the difference much, unless the CRT displays less than 70 characters per line < 1502572378 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502572446 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it can be already connected to a CRT, although unit 36 is for APA mode rather than text. < 1502572476 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is APA mode? < 1502572480 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You can physically display them on the same screen if you want to) < 1502572499 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: All-points-addressable. < 1502572523 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although output to unit 36 will replace the entire picture at once with the contents in memory starting at the specified address.) < 1502572559 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? do you mean a pixel-based full screen frame buffer? that would have more memory than a MIX computer, it's totally unrealistic for that era. < 1502572590 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The resolution is very low; only 80x40 < 1502572656 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh... that's not really APA mode, that's more like high-resolution text mode < 1502572660 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ok < 1502572697 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought real graphics starts at over 128 pixels width < 1502572734 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and it is actually implemented in MIXPC using text mode, although each pixel in the 80x40 area is limited to being either on or off (or even different intensities, up to the size of a MIX byte, although MIXPC only implements on/off) < 1502572740 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :real graphics? < 1502572787 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooh. as in real pixel manipulations rather than textmode. < 1502572917 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I guess that's not really true. there is one cheap graphing calculator, the TI-80, that has only a 64x48 pixel display < 1502572966 0 :dingbat!uid70835@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sbhzedjebiiscxre JOIN :#esoteric < 1502572988 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, there's a lot of small displays that allow per-pixel manipulation. < 1502572998 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's unusually low even for an early graphic calculator < 1502573019 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell even an 8-column lcd has per-pixel manipulation. < 1502573123 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Casio fx-6300G may be an even smaller example < 1502573135 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :EDSAC (which predates MIX) has a graphical display too, although with a lower resolution. < 1502573176 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502573223 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1502573260 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sure, I have plotted functions on a programmable calculator with the 14x3 text characters, so you only see three values at a time and have to watch as the curve scrolls through and you need a VERY active imagination, but I don't call that "all pixels addressable" or anything close < 1502573344 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, then < 1502573606 0 :PinealGlandOptic!~PinealGla@82.144.205.57 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1502573745 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The assembler I wrote for MIX is not quite the same as MIXAL, such as it has no compile-time multiplication/division, and omits a few other things too, but does have a few new commands such as FILL and PUNCH. < 1502573781 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(PUNCH is used for appending additional data that will be loaded at runtime, rather than in the loader routine.) < 1502573876 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Do you like my way of fitting the loader program onto one card instead of needing two cards? < 1502574185 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The same restriction to which characters can be punched still holds. < 1502574200 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually made two loader programs; one for specific byte sizes and one for programs independent of byte size.) < 1502574325 0 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502574327 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the one for specific byte sizes, the rest of the program still takes (approxmiately) the same number of cards, although the format of the cards is different; in order to handle negative numbers, the numbers are stored "biased"; the first five columns store the address and the last five columns must be blank; multiple words on one card are on addresses skipped by 2 instead of by 1; the transfer card is different (it overwrites the loading routin < 1502574434 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1502574616 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The assembler also tries to reduce the number of holes to be punched, so that it will use spaces instead of zeros where possible. < 1502576660 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502576700 0 :zseri!4d16fd5f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.22.253.95 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1502576729 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't much care if it's one card or two card. the loader format already isn't trying to compress the program much, so one extra card doesn't hurt anyone. < 1502576771 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, although I still decided to do it with just one card anyways, mainly just because I want to do < 1502576783 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1502577065 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However, this one card program may be faster (although I have not actually tested the speed), and needs to use only 31 words of memory while loading. < 1502577119 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Or maybe it isn't faster; I don't know) < 1502577282 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :home sweet home < 1502577394 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: isn't the speed of loading mostly limited by the speed of the card reader though? < 1502577395 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1502577633 0 :Guest13399!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502578402 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes, I suppose so < 1502578444 0 :Guest13399!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving... < 1502578466 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1502578682 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually know how fast is the card reader anyways, although it may be implementation-dependent. < 1502578734 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is implementation-dependent < 1502578740 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but slow enough in any case < 1502578775 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways my version does not need any special logic for the transfer card, and since I have returned the book to the library I cannot compare the method used for loading signed numbers < 1502578887 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1502578896 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502578978 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502579207 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :A more efficient encoding for the independent-byte-size loader could be made though; currently each number needs one card, which seem too much < 1502579264 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The speific-byte-size loader though is already efficient. < 1502579610 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1502579966 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're saying umlbox doesnt provide init :v `Kernel panic - not syncing: No init found. Try passing init= option to kernel. See Linux Documentation/init.txt for guidance.` < 1502580058 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does provide an init. < 1502580081 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's right there in the repository, init.c. < 1502580176 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Makefile should put it in the umlbox-initrd.gz, and the umlbox script gives that as an initrd argument to the UML kernel. < 1502580189 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Support for "BASE 64" should also be added into this assembler; currently it only support 100 and independent. < 1502580305 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: or make it support any base from 64 to 100 inclusive < 1502580326 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ternary or more unusual machines < 1502580329 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it ought to, you are right. < 1502580348 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, it does contain init... Why is it not executing it? < 1502580348 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, 64 and 100 cover most of the practical cases < 1502580355 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(MIXPC already does, although MIXASM currently doesn't.) < 1502580415 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: Maybe try passing -v to umlbox and see if all the paths in the command line it runs seem to be right. < 1502580447 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :In any case you could use the independent mode if you really need to, although it would be better to support any base from 64 to 100 anyways, in case you do not want to use the independent mode. < 1502580456 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :they all look good. here's the output of a test: https://hastebin.com/anobevubum.pas < 1502580579 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1502580593 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: Odd. Does zcat /usr/bin/../lib/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz | cpio -t say "init"? < 1502580625 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup < 1502580855 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you could even have a base 256 machine. it's not quite standard according to the book, but the only change you really need is extending the CHAR instruction with an extended encoding format for large numbers and add a new NUME instruction that decodes that format < 1502580916 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1502580922 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, i think its another case of the linux kernel being magic :V < 1502580932 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 JOIN :#esoteric < 1502580937 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still possible to encode a word into a word a word into ten punchable bytes easily < 1502580948 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it is another idea, although standard MIX programs may assume that the base is 64 to 100 and that it isn't larger than 100. < 1502580964 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they may assume that < 1502580982 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I don't have any good ideas, since it's not really saying much by the way of useful errors. Though I guess "Failed to execute /init" need not really mean it's missing, could be something else as well. < 1502580998 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish the kernel would tell me why :V < 1502581011 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :So this new way is not really MIX, it is "nearly MIX", I suppose. (Still, it can be a possible variant anyways) < 1502581011 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502581019 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's a variant < 1502581066 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1502581076 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: Heh, well, looks like that error in a more current kernel (4.10) has changed to "Failed to execute %s (error %d)\n", so maybe someone else wished that as well. < 1502581136 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1502581177 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/ba24762bd "make init failures more explicit" < 1502581227 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1502581238 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll try(tm) to see if it'll work with a recent kernel < 1502581263 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I'm reading github right, that commit made it to 3.13, which is what we've got on HackEgo. < 1502581276 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that might be a reasonable version to try. < 1502581298 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember running into problems when I tried a 4.x series one when trying to set up my local test environment. < 1502581353 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1502581393 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might also want to verify ("file init", "file umlbox-linux") your both executables are for the same architecture. < 1502581431 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Instead of, say, x86 and x86-64.) < 1502581621 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that was exactly the problem :V kernel 32bit init 64bit < 1502581623 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1502581637 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1502581744 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should've said that first, then. :) < 1502581826 0 :wob_jonas!b03f1900@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.25.0 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1502581904 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :melted blue stilton on a burger is the best thing in the world. < 1502582129 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric : fizzie does umlbox not work with 64-bit kernels for some reason, or is it just being silly and enforcing the kernel be 32bit? < 1502582157 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It should work with 64-bit kernels just fine. < 1502582163 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use it with one. < 1502582180 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :init: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64 -- umlbox-linux: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64. < 1502582187 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just as long as you have both the same.