< 1504483202 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Quit: ZNC 1.6.4+deb1 - http://znc.in < 1504483219 0 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504483905 0 :Antoxyde_!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-501-41.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1504485893 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504486980 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504488308 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504488341 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504488601 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504488808 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504489992 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504491383 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1504491460 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1504491624 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504491912 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504492819 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I FINALLY DID IT < 1504492823 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :200 K POPULATION < 1504492827 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1127628055 < 1504492837 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :WUHU! < 1504493108 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: is this about the time you send in the giant monsters? < 1504493143 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :only after copying his save file. :P < 1504493163 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :lynn: do you have the CJam cheat sheet somewhere? someone marked the link as dead on the wiki page < 1504493179 0 :lynn!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gqazesvfygkncqbj PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah http://foldr.moe/cjam.pdf < 1504493246 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07CJam14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53020&oldid=53002 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-41) 10/* Instructions */ Fix link < 1504493290 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1504493385 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07CJam14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53021&oldid=53020 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+6) 10/* Instructions */ pdf warning < 1504494002 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Official Crainfuck Distribution (dead link) (can someone please mirror this?)" apparently we couldn't. < 1504494042 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1504494807 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504494930 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504495289 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? fizzbuzz < 1504495290 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzbuzz? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1504495312 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizziebuzzie < 1504495314 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. < 1504495318 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'fizzbuzz': Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. < 1504495390 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And others by fizzwords. < 1504495432 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are technically correct. < 1504495460 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that wouldn't really improve the wisdom. < 1504495462 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: OK, that one's actually pretty funny < 1504495468 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay! < 1504495499 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I define "fizzword" as "a word used like a buzzword, but which was never meaningful" < 1504495499 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think tastes on wisdom entries vary. < 1504495508 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: indeed < 1504495515 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So are all fizzwords buzzwords? < 1504495596 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think buzzwords are generally originally meaningful, although the original meaning may have been dubiously useful at best and they may often be used in a way unrelated to their meaning < 1504495858 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple. < 1504495875 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The future has plenty of downsides but this is nice. < 1504496283 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( the future brexit all, putin in downsides that trump everything ) < 1504496302 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Earlier today I tried connecting the printer to the USB on the front of the computer instead of the USB on the back, and this time it did not result a kernel panic < 1504496459 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :did it result in a kernel panic the previous time? < 1504496714 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1504496721 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you ever write up the rules to your jam? < 1504496734 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a jam? < 1504496740 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean game. < 1504496742 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504496761 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, although I've been thinking about them < 1504496767 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to pin down certain details < 1504496996 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504497007 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504497053 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Isny 5* 10New user account < 1504497114 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What sorts of details? < 1504497153 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53022&oldid=52996 5* 03Isny 5* (+158) 10/* Introductions */ < 1504497343 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :best song of the game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gE4H5IArtaw < 1504497409 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53023&oldid=53010 5* 03Isny 5* (+10) 10 < 1504497457 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Rev14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53024 5* 03Isny 5* (+56) 10Created page with "Rev is a small, stack based language based on [[Mouse]]." < 1504497556 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Rev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53025&oldid=53024 5* 03Isny 5* (+148) 10 < 1504497681 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Rev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53026&oldid=53025 5* 03Isny 5* (+585) 10 < 1504497712 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504497760 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Rev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53027&oldid=53026 5* 03Isny 5* (+29) 10 < 1504498015 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic. < 1504498039 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: mostly what each of the resources is used for < 1504498071 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is that game? < 1504498096 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: jigoku kisetsukan < 1504498097 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What resources are there? < 1504498136 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://store.steampowered.com/app/368950/ < 1504498146 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i with no other recourses but my own resources < 1504498149 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I mean ais523 < 1504498195 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: even that wasn't pinned down until fairly recently, and I'm still not 100% on what one of them does in a specific circumstance < 1504498214 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible < 1504498223 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the problems can either be balance problems or UI problems) < 1504498266 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :solaris is dead, long live solaris. < 1504498331 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was trying to think of a slightly different resource system for Magic: The Gathering at one point. < 1504498356 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: What different resource system? < 1504498361 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this one's asymmetrical < 1504498384 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One property of it was that instead of having red mana, you would have things requiring mana + red as two separate resources. < 1504498409 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which I guess is already the way some games work. < 1504498437 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: OK. I had some ideas too, such as writing the rules as a literate computer programming, to make the rules more clear, and if anything remains unclear, you can figure it out by putting it into the computer to figure out. < 1504498577 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504498596 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :MtG resources are pretty complicated. < 1504498608 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic: the Gathering has some things unclear and I thought to do by literate computer programming and mathematics to make clearer, although also there is still some klugy rules which are not quite so mathematically elegant; fortunately most of those problems have been fixed. They also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary; while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant, < 1504498612 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. karma that you can only use for casting creature spells, or that has an effect on a creature if you use that karma to cast it. < 1504498689 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks zzo38's client needs a wrap long lines feature < 1504498692 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it is "mana" and not "karma" in Magic: the Gathering, although yes those things do exist (but they aren't so common) < 1504498769 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I should perhaps to put in the mode to ring the bell if you try to type too much on one line, but I don't even know what limit < 1504498788 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes there are other restrictions. < 1504498815 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells < 1504498833 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Yes, there are many other kinds too. < 1504498886 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, Piracy < 1504498889 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i think it's 510 bytes for the whole IRC line < 1504498908 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that includes information that's specific to the recipient, IIRC < 1504498923 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's no way to know exactly what limit is safe without knowing all the possible metadata the recipient could see < 1504498930 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1504498970 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Play it safe and don't write any messages longer than four bytes. < 1504498990 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That is what I thought, which make it difficult to know what to set it to. I would make it a user configurable setting of course, but still I should have to know what to set it to! < 1504499024 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Can't; the word PRIVMSG itself is seven bytes. < 1504499079 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not part of the message. < 1504499106 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :O,OK < 1504499118 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504499152 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what. apparently my splitlong.pl script no longer exists on this server. < 1504499166 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :splitlong works badly with freenode anyway < 1504499168 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :been meaning to take it off < 1504499175 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the symbolic link goes nowhere < 1504499202 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was going for OKAY < 1504499213 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But O,OK works too. < 1504499256 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would i respond to messages directed at other people < 1504499318 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: one of the social rules you learn playing werewolf/mafia is not to respond to messages directed at other people < 1504499335 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :We aren't playing werewolf/mafia. < 1504499342 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no game rule against it but people will get annoyed at you if you do, because it can kind-of mess up their plans (and it looks like you're covering for the intended recipient) < 1504499381 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see. splitlong still works, somehow. perhaps it's become an internal irssi feature. < 1504499432 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC? < 1504499509 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I thought that was an in-person game. < 1504499515 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never heard of it played on IRC. < 1504499529 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I mostly play it on web forums, although I've played it on IRC too < 1504499534 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you play Contact? < 1504499541 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works in pretty much any medium that allows for communication < 1504499544 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know what Contact is < 1504499548 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a word game that can be played in person or over IRC, but I wrote a web application that implements it. < 1504499564 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I suppose that I should to add a setting for a bell in case of too long line. For my personal setting, I could assume that it uses a prefix ":zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-999-999.eastlink.ca " at the start (although it isn't actually "999") to figure out what limit to set < 1504499592 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One person thinks of a word and reveals some prefix of it, and others try to think of clues for other words that start with that prefix. < 1504499620 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, so there's a prefix part + PRIVMSG + target + message, in the server-to-client side portion. < 1504499622 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If they can clue to each other successfully, one letter of the prefix is revealed. < 1504499681 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yes, and "PRIVMSG" and the target and message are already counted, so the only remaining part is the prefix part, and the space that comes between it and "PRIVMSG". < 1504499750 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :There does not appear to be a maximum prefix length. < 1504499792 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't matter now, since we can guess at it. < 1504499849 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it part of WHOIS reply for yourself? < 1504499857 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned. < 1504499860 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there is a limit for the server to client length, then if the client to server length is not a smaller maximum then you will just make the guess. As I said it can (and I think it should in other client too) be a user-configurable setting. < 1504499881 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's 512 both directions. < 1504499945 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Yes, and that is how to figure out, but still I should to just make the user setting (replacing "-56-48" with "-999-999" instead, in case those numbers change unexpectedly to three digits, which does seem possible). < 1504499991 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :512 when counting CRLF, no? < 1504499995 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I actually want to change it to "@zzo38computer.org" instead of "@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca", but it seems that Freenode doesn't support forward-DNS cloaks.) < 1504500013 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504500019 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Correctly. < 1504500026 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS? < 1504500066 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, in case one of my previous messages today was cut off, then please to notify me that I can repeat the part that you did not receive. < 1504500107 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know that the prefix is actually required to be a real connection? < 1504500111 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe it is. < 1504500122 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. There is an entry suggesting it's intended to be. < 1504500135 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see it as a hard requirement, but it seems that's the intent. < 1504500143 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Isn't it about time someone invented a good build system? < 1504500157 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will that person be you? < 1504500169 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the one i saw ended with "logical and mathematically elegant," < 1504500186 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :which seemed like it might have been cut off < 1504500208 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :... while I think the new way is more logical and mathematically elegant, the change itself seems messy to me. < 1504500271 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504500280 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't the prefix replaced with the freenode cloak if you have one? < 1504500306 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The domain name is, but not the nickname and username. < 1504500381 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://make.girls.moe < 1504500438 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hunh. < 1504500770 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Will you tell me what kind of stuff now is your game? Did you write any rules yet at all, or nothing yet? < 1504500927 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I wrote some but I need to change some of it < 1504501168 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of my ideas also are, that the cards can be sold in a box with all card of the set, arranged in sections by rarity (for assembling packs), and within each section by alphabetical order, which together with the included list of cards can be used to check in case any are missing. < 1504501219 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also would include the complete printed rules, and a DVD with open-source computer implementation of the rules and complete card database. < 1504501390 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some people have told me that the rarity is meaningless if they are in the boxes like that, but I disagree, because the rarities can be used to construct a "booster draft" like in Magic: the Gathering, or like sealed in Magic: the Gathering. < 1504501423 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: What do you think some of the biggest problems with Magic: the Gathering is, then? < 1504501489 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem < 1504501506 0 :idonob!~Owner@S010600259c3e7d7b.vs.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504501515 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make < 1504501544 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the rules I'm working on, priority is a more important part of the game (meaning that people keep track of it) and is gained much less often (making it less tedious to deal with) < 1504501573 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, if it's not your turn, you can only do the equivalent of playing a spell or activating an ability if it's a response to something an opponent does < 1504501589 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this obviously changes the balance of the game but it can be designed around) < 1504501675 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sirlin's "Codex" game has a different kind of solution: You cannot make any choices at all if it isn't your turn. This means that your opponent must declare blockers before you attack, instead of afterward. < 1504501750 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i,i gain priority until end of turn < 1504501784 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: many games do that but it cuts down the tactical depth somewhat < 1504501927 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think you are correct. < 1504502001 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Did you play Cale's favorite game, Prismata? < 1504502014 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1504502023 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I mean even more than in Pokemon card, where sometimes something you do does require opponent to make choices on your turn; in Codex, the rules explicitly prohibit this, in order to allow long delays of several days between turns. < 1504502231 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :However in Magic: the Gathering still the computer UI can be done, such as if you assign a key combination for each step/phase of the turn, and then if you push that key it will pass priority until that phase/step if no other player does anything and no new information is revealed. (You can also just pass priority normally.) Can also assign one key to auto-play during a mana step or such. < 1504502239 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh man, correspondence Magic: The Gathering < 1504502245 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds like a good game. < 1504502749 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504502963 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :correspondence chess boxing < 1504503163 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :How are you going to fight by correspondence? < 1504503196 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504503211 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504503264 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504503337 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :correspondence Sid Meier's Civilization < 1504503492 0 :Cale!~cale@CPEf48e38ee8583-CM0c473de9d680.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: It's on the honour system. You get a letter in the mail and it has "Bxe5. Left hook." < 1504503537 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504503625 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Keith Johnstone talks about games like mimed tug-of-war and slow-motion tag. < 1504503653 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes people play those games and try to win, which is obviously pretty silly. < 1504503804 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps after I fix the bug in MIXPC with LD1N instruction, I can also to add the overpunch mode. Some characters will no longer be valid MIX characters (or even valid Hollerith characters) when overpunched, so sometimes the result is lossy, especially since the file is using 8-bit characters rather than 12-bit characters. < 1504504013 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Overpunch mode is something I have not seen in any other MIX implementation. The other thing I have not seen in other MIX implementations is the support to connect to an actual printer for output (although MIXPC still supports print to file, too).) < 1504504100 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ability to split a partially read card deck might be another thing to add, too. < 1504506494 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504506755 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504508528 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1504508874 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: OK, I wrote up what I have so far: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt < 1504508923 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this should hopefully be a framework that's general enough to do lots of interesting things but simple enough that it's clear how it works, even if a few of the rules look complex when written down < 1504508930 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm hoping it'd be more intuitive in actual play < 1504509033 0 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1504509054 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK I will read too < 1504509208 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does the General have a different card back than the other cards? < 1504509214 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1504509232 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or is it the same? < 1504509347 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't thought of that; within these rules it doesn't matter, so making it different might make it easier to find if it gets shuffled into a deck by mistake < 1504509386 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could make it a different size, too. < 1504509468 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are benefits in either case; it depends whether or not they should be drafted together. In Magic: the Gathering, conspiracies (which are purely optional) are drafted together with the rest of the cards. < 1504509512 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume that, if this game is distributed using booster packs, generals would show up in those occasionally < 1504509519 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although probably not very often as decks only need one < 1504509524 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be a reason to make them the same size < 1504509582 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it depends on whether or not you are going to draft them together, whether or not to make the back the same, although if they do come in the same pack that is a good enough reason to be the same size whether or not the back is the same. < 1504509638 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant larger but I suppose you could make it smaller too. < 1504509907 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1504510010 0 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504510183 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1504510864 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net QUIT :Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH < 1504512958 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@128.93.83.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504512975 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504513241 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1504513485 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1504514641 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504515712 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-501-41.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1504515996 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504516990 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1504517473 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504518389 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504518481 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504518979 0 :idonob!~Owner@S010600259c3e7d7b.vs.shawcable.net QUIT :Quit: host lost < 1504519141 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1504519815 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504519910 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504520165 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504520452 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504520663 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504520670 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries to read recent backlog of this channel. "I think the last time I tried before that was a few months ago, and yes it did result a kernel panic." and "Spend this magma only to to cast colorless Eldrazi spells" wait, magma? < 1504520698 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I can tell about the irc length limits if you want to know more details < 1504520839 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" the fact that priority exists but is rarely relevant is a big problem / because there are a lot of priority passes every turn, making communication difficult and making a UI for a computer version hard to make" => yes, but I think you can still make a decent computer interface that allows players to rollback actions by other players and requires explicit confirm for irreversable events like revealing new information that the player doing the ac < 1504520888 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it could be made to work decently for M:tG, at least within Earthly communication lag. < 1504520930 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" pikhq: doesn't at least Freenode have a known list of finitely many serversS?" => yes, but the list can change dynamically < 1504520973 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the list isn't even made automatically public by the IRC infrastructure, so it's not quite clear if the docs on their homepage is complete or if the DNS entry for chat.freenode points to all servers (there may be non-public servers) < 1504520989 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are likely complete most of the time, but you can't tell how up to date < 1504521077 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" A suitably malicious server could intentionally use a ludicrous prefix like ":foo.bar.baz.im.a.little.server.blah.blah.blah.example.com", at least as far as the protocol syntax is concerned." => freenode has a length limit of 63 bytes on the hostname, above that it will display the ip or ipv6 address < 1504521147 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: one tricky part is that there's an extra byte in the received message for PRIVMSG and NOTICE messages that is only added if the client requests it with an option. It's an obsolate extension, but many clients still use it. < 1504521194 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" Huh, is there at all a *safe* line length in IRC?" => not globally accross all networks, not really. not with quakenet supporting channel names up to 200 bytes. < 1504521297 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :on freenode, 356 bytes is the definitely safe limit, but you can go longer if you know some of the target name, your nick and username and hostname (but the server can change your nick asynchly for a nick collision) < 1504521341 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's this thing ais523 was talking about? is he designing a new game? < 1504521447 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" [your rules] also got rid of the planeswalker uniqueness rule and retroactively made all planeswalkers legendary;" => that sounds like a bad idea to me. aren't there more than one very powerful Jaces, and decks with 16 planeswalkers played competitively even in Standard? < 1504524421 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` \? fizzbuzz # lol < 1504524451 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fizzbuzz is the enterprise version of counting, where you replace certain numbers by buzzwords. < 1504524481 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" zzo38: it's a set of rules for a TCG that aims to solve some of the biggest problems with Magic, whilst still being quite flexible" => what was the context for this? what is that set of rules? < 1504524594 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :" We're in the future. I can charge my Dell laptop and Google phone using a charger made by Apple." => wow. that's some serious future indeed. I'll probably buy a new mobile phone this year or next year, and it will be one I can charge with these USB charger thingies that I'm already using to charge my camera, bluetooth microphone headphone adapter, and electric razor. < 1504524608 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although the camera requires the other kind of cable) < 1504524742 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your other things all use USB type-C? < 1504524826 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the razor and the headphone adapter uses the same plug as most current mobile phones. I'm not sure if that's "type-C" < 1504524841 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :my other things aren't charged by USB < 1504525008 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, my mobile phone is charged by a round plug DC charger < 1504525024 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a USB port, but only for data, not charge < 1504525138 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the camera uses the other, slightly less common USB port, which some other cameras use too < 1504525403 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the electric toothbrush doesn't use USB either, but that's probably a good thing) < 1504525590 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, probably not. < 1504525604 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :USB type C is the future, man. < 1504525623 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1504525664 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't believe it. people keep saying that the current standard is the future and I should buy into it now because everything and everyone will use only that in the future, but it often lasts only a few years or at most ten years. I'm older than to believe that. < 1504525706 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a great way to sell things, I admit that, and I've been tricked by it several times during my life. < 1504525827 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504525973 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what I'd like? a calendar that displays both the name of the month and the number of the month together. < 1504525986 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :most calendars have just one or the other < 1504526002 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I actually use both and need to know both < 1504526330 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :well english names have numbers in them, but the wrong numbers < 1504526583 0 :Hoolootwo!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :just use the discordian calendar, only 5 months to rememer < 1504526786 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaand St. Tibb's Day, but only in Leapyears ☺ < 1504526844 0 :APic!~apic@apic.name PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ibb/ib/ < 1504527334 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@Hoolootwo: but I don't want to remember anything. that's the whole point. the calendar is there to remember everything instead of me. < 1504527334 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unknown command, try @list < 1504527397 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even in our calendar, I'm generally only confused about the matching of names and numbers in three months now. < 1504527414 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe four. < 1504527752 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504529327 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICFP is very busy < 1504529480 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I'm noticing this too. < 1504529505 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though L1 is still pretty empty right now. < 1504529538 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? an empty L1 cache? that's a miracle < 1504529562 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@dslb-092-072-159-070.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504529591 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: you're out < 1504529610 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://icfp17.sigplan.org/room/icfp-2017-venue-l1 < 1504529672 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well at least I've seen SPJ from afar :P < 1504529850 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504529934 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in any case it's filling up now < 1504530106 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it may have been pretty empty but it may have in fact contained me < 1504530175 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :But L1 suddenly got very not empty at all < 1504530468 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although I somehow have a free seat either side of me < 1504530508 0 :moonythedwarf!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504530726 0 :moony!~moony@2a05:dfc7:dfc7:c1::7da4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504530727 0 :moony!?@? NICK :Guest53736 < 1504531078 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504532977 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: are you here all week? < 1504535032 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504535629 0 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1504535735 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C595.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504535744 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C595.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi again < 1504535826 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504535868 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1504536271 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504536345 0 :^arcade_droid!~arcade_dr@unaffiliated/arcade-droid/x-4286778 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504536368 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Natyre14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53028&oldid=51308 5* 03Keymaker 5* (+47) 10Clarified one sentence. < 1504536379 0 :zarcade_droid!~arcade_dr@telg.xyz JOIN :#esoteric < 1504536402 0 :zarcade_droid!?@? NICK :Guest28588 < 1504536816 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1504536966 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: I'm leaving on Saturday < 1504536983 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :now back in L2 :P < 1504537031 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("back" in the sense that FSCD is what I'm registered for) < 1504537929 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICFP contest full results are now available at https://icfpcontest2017.github.io/ < 1504537944 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :not too surprising since the prizes are given on the conference < 1504538012 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no < 1504538014 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not full results < 1504538028 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just almost full results, because they hold back the full results until the prize ceremony < 1504540598 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504540614 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moo < 1504540636 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does stuff like if (x > z) || (q <= r) assemble on x86? < 1504540710 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if? < 1504540752 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or not if < 1504540803 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in any case there is no single answer. mov rax, x; cmp rax, y; jg l; mov rax, q; cmp rax, r; jle l; jmp g; l: ... g: ... is the most naive way but no good compiler will do that. < 1504540829 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://godbolt.org/g/Atht9E < 1504540832 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it needs jumps < 1504540834 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1504540887 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's set where is a condition code (like g or le above) and r is a register < 1504540898 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with -O3 it will be setg < 1504540904 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :which doesn't jump, so doesn't mess up branch prediction. < 1504540934 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was planning on adding equ, lt, lte, instructions < 1504540943 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as equ dst a b < 1504540949 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sets dst to 1 if a == b otherwise 0 < 1504540963 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this way you don't need two instructions < 1504540998 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was also planning on having a cmp instruction) < 1504541005 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which can be used for conditional instructions) < 1504541651 0 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504541767 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504543812 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux9sE2S8Pho < 1504543976 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: It is Wizards of the Coast who removed the planeswalker uniqueness rule. The new way seems logical and makes sense to me, although the change itself looks messy to me (retroactively changing planeswalkers to legendary). < 1504544036 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: are you talking about the M14 rule changes? < 1504544055 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that did not retroactively change them to legendary < 1504544190 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No I mean the future change < 1504544299 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1504544302 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hadn't seen them < 1504544409 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but wasn't the legendary rule changed as well not too long ago? < 1504544608 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you mean this change? https://yawgatog.com/resources/rules-changes/dgm-m14/#D704.5k. < 1504544622 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a more recent change? < 1504544990 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@128.93.83.11 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504545064 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504545257 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one < 1504545418 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504545979 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504546237 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504546534 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504546862 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C595.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :I plan to drop the load (l) and store (v) commands of TEWNLSWAC < 1504546877 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: WHAT? < 1504546884 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me look that up. that looks strange. < 1504546893 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504546910 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C595.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I can emulate them using nested objects. < 1504547110 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't see where that happened. was this recent? < 1504547240 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: unless it's a change so recent it's not in the Comp Rules yet, it doesn't look to me like they changed planeswalkers to legendary. the changed the legend rule and the planeswalker uniqueness rule at some point so they only count within permanents controlled by one player, not across players, but planeswalkers still care about their 'walker type, not their name. < 1504547251 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas legendary permanents care about their name. < 1504547266 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: they just announced it < 1504547292 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: can you point to a source? < 1504547296 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :b_jonas: google can < 1504547297 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :hth < 1504547425 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/ixalan-mechanics < 1504547432 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder I hadn't heard that yet < 1504547463 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is that going to work in Modern with the 16-planeswalker decks? will we have a 12-Jace deck now? or did those always only work in Standard? < 1504547490 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504547596 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "Legendary Planeswalker - Tezzeret" still comfortably fits the type line with the new ugly font, so it's technically possible. it might even be better for understanding, and they probably know more about whether it turns Jace to too dangerous < 1504547639 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fact that Jace, the Mind Sculptor is still banned in Modern probably helps < 1504547644 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504547947 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TEWNLSWAC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53029&oldid=53012 5* 03Zseri 5* (-226) 10removed sdat stack (update with interpreter) < 1504547959 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C595.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, done. < 1504548449 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did say it is a future rule, not a current one. < 1504548510 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, that kind of change does seem messy to me, even though I think the new way is sensible. < 1504548700 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: there are only a few cards that care about non-creatures being legendary, such as one in Amonkhet and a few in Kamigawa. < 1504548727 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of those cards get better, some worse. < 1504548741 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes, I know we have planeswalker creatures, but printed and animated after the fact < 1504548757 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, technically none of them are printed as a creature < 1504548771 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but one or two have a built-in ability to turn them to a creature < 1504549288 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504549547 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504550031 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504550316 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504550336 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504550488 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504550742 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504550750 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@93-231-58-66.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504550964 0 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504551202 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504551726 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504552085 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TEWNLSWAC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53030&oldid=53029 5* 03Zseri 5* (+45) 10symbol vs variable < 1504552205 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504552336 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has confirmed the existence of Taneb (though this is really a zero knowledge proof) < 1504552527 0 :FjordPrefect!~soorya@220.158.140.122 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504552550 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07TEWNLSWAC14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53031&oldid=53030 5* 03Zseri 5* (+38) 10/* Binary Commands */ < 1504552757 0 :* Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d: PRIVMSG #esoteric :conversely has the beginnings of an existence proof for int-e < 1504553557 0 :b_jonas_!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1504553788 0 :^v^v!v^@me.pxtst.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504553855 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1504553855 0 :^v!v^@me.pxtst.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1504553907 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504554007 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 269 seconds < 1504554125 0 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1504554127 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds. < 1504554127 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504554174 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504554345 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1504554365 0 :shikhin!shikhin@heddw.ch JOIN :#esoteric < 1504554393 0 :shikhin!?@? NICK :Guest35351 < 1504554410 0 :Guest35351!?@? NICK :shikhin_ < 1504554415 0 :shikhin_!shikhin@heddw.ch QUIT :Changing host < 1504554415 0 :shikhin_!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504554430 0 :shikhin_!?@? NICK :shikhin < 1504554485 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1504554722 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504554732 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dear gogogle < 1504554735 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*google < 1504554736 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuck you < 1504554742 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :please stop thinking I'm not human. < 1504554750 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :kthxbye < 1504555324 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: don't be a bot, have a cookie! < 1504555471 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bot. < 1504555473 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a failing liver. < 1504555492 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have a failing liver? < 1504555674 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My transaminases are elevated. < 1504555678 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't really know why. < 1504555686 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it usually indicates some damage to the liver. < 1504555798 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus it might not be the liver failing < 1504555809 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might be something else failing that just happens to also punch the liver in the nuts < 1504555851 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that the rule about maximum health being reduced to also reduce current health should be clarified. < 1504556265 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1504556268 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic the Gathering? < 1504556292 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: probably the TCG work-in-progress that I posted here last night < 1504556298 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think can be simplify by the manoeuvres not giving name for each action also, and instead to have something like "manoeuvre name: negative resources, source -> destination, positive resources: action" < 1504556299 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :beacuse shachaf's been bugging me about it for months < 1504556312 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504556324 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I like giving things names because it makes it possible for cards to talk about them < 1504556340 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one big problem that Magic had was not differentiating between, say, fire and lightning spells mechanically early on < 1504556346 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example "Start: hand -> ready, logistics 5: End the turn." < 1504556349 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning that they can't draw a mechanical distinction nowadays < 1504556368 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, I have mention that a few days ago. they don't have a damage type system. < 1504556388 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :massive in particular is something that things probably want to care about < 1504556395 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what was this rules thing you were talking about earlier? < 1504556400 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, but the manoeuvres and aspects still themself have names < 1504556414 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"massive"? < 1504556421 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also that manoeuvre in particular would make it possible to end the turn with a card on the tactics track; the rules handle that state but it's something I'd imagine you'd do rarely if at all < 1504556431 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: "massive: end your rurn" < 1504556434 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*turn < 1504556450 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, this game doesn't have summoning sickness < 1504556469 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I do mean "end your turn", and doesn't the rules say you can't end any turn if there are any tactics? < 1504556471 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the easiest way to make something that's ready to defend as soon as it's played, but can't attack as soon as it's played, is to end the turn when it becomes ready < 1504556484 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: not via the normal methods < 1504556490 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I assume rules on the cards override the rules of the game < 1504556637 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what game is this again? is it the one you're planning that I don't know much about? < 1504556648 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it doesn't even have a name yet < 1504556660 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here are my notes: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/d81df1c3c147f5dc.txt < 1504556687 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it a trading card game? if so, then we can just call it Feather: TCG; or Feather: Collectible Card Game. < 1504556760 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I was also trying to figure out if I could make something of a toy TCG, but I quickly realized I'm bad at designing entirely new games or writing new stories, I should just stick to analyzing existing games and existing stories. < 1504556763 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly, can then to write the Haskell program (or some other programming language) to make an implementation on computer, and can be made literate programming so that this is the rule document it explain the rule including by computer program too. < 1504556775 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did come up with a few mechanics, but they don't really work together. < 1504556781 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't think it has anything to do with Feather < 1504556784 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: What did you come up with? < 1504556837 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: probably the most useful idea I had is that when creatures attack you (which normally happens once per turn) you get to evade (escape, run away from) one for free by default. < 1504556871 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case they don't deal combat damage to you, but you can also do this if you also don't want to deal combat damage to them < 1504556929 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then there can be a ton of abilities that modify this, both on creatures (fast creatures you can't evade, slow creatures so you can evade any number of slow creatures or up to one non-slow creature) or abilities affecting the player (boots of speed to evade an extra creature per combat) < 1504556954 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-pkrixgujyycwmost QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1504556968 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ektpncwqwekrwcjc JOIN :#esoteric < 1504557021 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name darksteel myr < 1504557030 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Darksteel Myr \ 3 \ Artifact Creature -- Myr \ 0/1 \ Indestructible (Damage and effects that say "destroy" don't destroy this creature. If its toughness is 0 or less, it's still put into its owner's graveyard.) \ SOM-U < 1504557068 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: being able to cancel one attack a turn (unless it's hard to stop) is apparently worth 3 mana < 1504557129 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in M:tG. I'm not saying this rule in context of M:tG < 1504557134 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but good to know < 1504557145 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: right, I was just thinking "M:tG has done something similar" < 1504557155 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Darksteel Myr doesn't have defender, which makes it better if you increase its power somehow < 1504557210 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name maze of ith < 1504557211 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maze of Ith \ Land \ {T}: Untap target attacking creature. Prevent all combat damage that would be dealt to and dealt by that creature this turn. \ DK-U, EMA-R, ME4-R, V12-M < 1504557234 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that also has a similar effect, although IIRC it's normally considered broken < 1504557253 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as you can see from the set of sets it's printed in!) < 1504557255 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you asked that in advance, the cheapest I'd have known is four mana, for Trap Runner (which works on fliers and even unblockable creatures by the way) or Uncle Istvan (a very old pseudo-indestructible creature) < 1504557511 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1504557649 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504557685 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504557770 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right. Order of the Stars. that works well enough for this in practice < 1504557800 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name order of the stars < 1504557802 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, wait < 1504557805 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Beloved Chaplain < 1504557806 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even better < 1504557827 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's straight two mana and is good against any creature it can block < 1504557853 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Beloved Chaplain \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ Protection from creatures \ OD-U < 1504557853 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Order of the Stars \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 0/1 \ Defender (This creature can't attack.) \ As Order of the Stars enters the battlefield, choose a color. \ Order of the Stars has protection from the chosen color. \ GPT-U < 1504557855 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know about that one. I used Inviolability, which is an aura version. < 1504557875 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make the argument for mother of runes, actually < 1504557879 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha, its flavor text is actually “Nomad and Nantuko, eagle and elephant; all the birds and beasts are charmed by his quiet dignity.” < 1504557884 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :she can block a creature, then give herself protection from it after the block < 1504557893 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's hardly the most broken thing you can do with that card < 1504557900 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the quiet dignity in that quote and its art is in nice contrast with Inviolability, which has the opposite flavor < 1504557943 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also I don't recognise those set codes < 1504557945 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not "then give protection". they all already have protection almost all the time. < 1504557957 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504557962 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I was talking about mother of runes < 1504557967 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name mother of runes < 1504557968 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GPT is Guildpact, from Ravnica block < 1504557969 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mother of Runes \ W \ Creature -- Human Cleric \ 1/1 \ {T}: Target creature you control gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn. \ UL-U, CMD-U, EMA-R, DDO-U < 1504557975 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, that does more < 1504557990 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, that's the expensive one for one mana < 1504557992 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's even better < 1504558002 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't pick up when you mentioned that < 1504558004 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, OD must be Odyssey < 1504558018 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mother of runes is probably the best creature costing {W} < 1504558036 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it's the best, but it might be close to < 1504558054 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a lot of competition for best < 1504558058 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you think is better? < 1504558062 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and depends on the environment < 1504558082 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some environments have longer matches with many creatures, in those the Soul Sisters are probably better < 1504558256 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I suspect the best creature costing {W} would be more expensive in money than what Mother of the Runes cost for uncommon < 1504559309 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH NO more double-faced cards with a land on the back face and a new pair of symbols identifying which face is the front and which is the back. STOP THAT, Wizards. You shouldn't have printed the first one either. < 1504559327 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like double face cards < 1504559350 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what does that do to the sleeve market? < 1504559396 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the icon for the back face is even fucking the same as the land icon on Future Sight timeshifted futuristic border cards. That's even worse. < 1504559457 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: not much, I think. < 1504559488 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ok, technically the icon isn't exactly the same, but it is very similar.) < 1504559515 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Maybe it is exactly the same. I can't tell from this low resolution.) < 1504559539 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah wait! This one isn't so bad < 1504559566 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Wizards have a perpetual problem trying to identify which side of a DFC is which, in an objective way that can be written into the rules < 1504559566 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a reminder text on the back side that says it's the back side < 1504559566 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I guess it's OK < 1504559574 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's why they have the reminder text < 1504559616 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what do the rules say about faking a reminder text? < 1504559623 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. it doesn't help that they keep messing up the Gatherer, so very often double-faced cards (and flip cards and split cards) show up wrong in Gatherer itself. If even they don't know, how should I know? < 1504559634 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: faking in what sense? < 1504559638 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I can't imagine that the reminder text is the actual rules-defined way to tell the sides apart < 1504559662 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, it's probably not. but that's not a problem here < 1504559664 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: M:tgO sometimes has a bug where it allows half a split card to exist on its own < 1504559689 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: my problem is that if you happen to never look at the FRONT of the card, you might not realize the card is double-faced, and think it's a single face land < 1504559712 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd notice when you tried to put it into a deck < 1504559720 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or sleeve it < 1504559730 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do people sleeve cards without ever looking at the other side? < 1504559780 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh god, there are sanctioned proxies ("checklist cards")?! < 1504559795 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: they're not really proxies, they look nothing like the original < 1504559805 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I probably do sometimes sleeve cards that way when making a deck, but I already know more or less what cards I have in my collection and would know if I had a double-sided card (I have zero. I also have no flip cards. I do have a few split cards.) < 1504559810 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :their only purpose is to have a normal back so that they can represent the position of a DFC in a deck without giving it away, even if you don't use sleeves < 1504559869 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they are proxies in the literal sense; they stand for the card indicated on the checklist. < 1504559877 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, part of the purpose of the reserves in my game is so that if you want to do something DFC-like, you can just fetch the other card from the reserves < 1504559889 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: no, it's sort of backwards. during a game, the checklist cards are the normal cards you use most of the time, and you can use the double-faced to represent the card in public zones. when buying or submitting a deck or drafting, that's when you need the double-faced card to be allowed to use it, and the checklist cards are penny cards you alw < 1504559889 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ays have or can get access to. < 1504559916 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this channel is full of nerds. < 1504559932 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're a combination token supply and sideboard and back-DFC-face and tuner for tunable cards (i.e. I'm envisaging cards that can affect opponent's cards only if you have a copy in your own reserves, so you can choose to hate out specific cards) < 1504559944 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote nerd < 1504559946 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :102) Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 482) we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic < 1504559958 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1504559968 0 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.252.221 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504559980 0 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.252.221 QUIT :Changing host < 1504559980 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504560074 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah, OK I suppose that can work, I like that < 1504560081 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504560159 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Javagrid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53032&oldid=53011 5* 03Stefan-hering 5* (+167) 10 < 1504560258 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Javagrid14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53033&oldid=53032 5* 03Stefan-hering 5* (-48) 10 < 1504560308 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C595.versanet.de PRIVMSG #esoteric :bye < 1504560312 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86C595.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1504560944 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: great, now I'm wondering what the implementation limit of the number of users in a channel in ircd-seven is < 1504560965 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I don't think there's a strict limit for that. < 1504560976 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(how else would an IRC channel be "full"?) < 1504561024 0 :mroman!b2c5e46d@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.228.109 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504561118 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but in practice the biggest legitimate channels in freenode top out below 2000 joined, and those are moderated the most quickly so there won't be much flood on them, so I don't think any individual big channel would cause a problem < 1504561147 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because those less than 2000 nicks will be distributed decently around the more than 10 servers < 1504561609 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: If configured with --enable-small-net, 256; otherwise 32768. < 1504561684 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming MEMBER_HEAP_SIZE measures that. It might be something else. But the BAN_HEAP_SIZE sounded reasonable for a banlist size limit. < 1504561749 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind. Apparently that's not the limit, that's just the allocation block size. < 1504561795 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you could ask #freenode if you want to know for sure. they're usually helpful about these sorts of IRC software questions, as long as it's software used on freenode < 1504561805 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean server and services software < 1504561807 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like digging into code more. < 1504561815 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, that's fine too < 1504561829 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done it myself a few times, but usually I just ask #freenode < 1504561837 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or TIAS for things where that's possible) < 1504561869 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but I can't really test for what inter-server race conditions are possible, especially not ones that require a netsplit at the right time) < 1504562046 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :No explicit limit in the same place (conf_channel_table) the ban list is configured, so maybe there isn't a limit. Anyway, it's kind of implicitly limited by the number of clients of the network. < 1504562132 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nor can I easily check for what the longest possible hostname is, so I just had to ask that) < 1504562146 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not going to set up reverse DNS entries for that) < 1504562189 0 :Antoxyde!~Antoxyde@AAnnecy-652-1-501-41.w90-41.abo.wanadoo.fr QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1504563332 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504563404 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504563810 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504563944 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504564397 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. The wiki's started being intermittently slow again, at least according to the graphs. (It was surprisingly snappy for a while after the CaC downtime.) < 1504564498 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://zem.fi/tmp/esolangs-response-time.png < 1504564548 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that what'sitcalled < 1504564559 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like it's not just the wiki but everything? < 1504564564 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: so what do you think of my TCG rules so far? < 1504564565 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's overall? < 1504564597 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I read them but it's hard to see how some of the rules would play out without examples. < 1504564603 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right < 1504564612 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course those are a lot more work. < 1504564615 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a general idea in mind but still don't have the details pinned far enough down that I can make examples < 1504564623 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be that some of the rules would have to change < 1504564627 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds like this game is meant to be played both printed and on the computer? < 1504564633 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well sure, it's clearly not final < 1504564637 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes < 1504564679 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are a lot of design choices that you can only realistically make in software. < 1504564721 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1504564735 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's a good question. what are the edge conditions you're designing for? a collectible/trading card game (as in, players can buy cards and choose which ones to put in their decks, but the game tries to be such that you won't have a linearly more powerful deck by just buying more powerful cards), two players making separate decks from their < 1504564735 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :collection or draft independently, < 1504564746 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of the design choices was to have status and current health as the only tracked values needed to explain the gamestate < 1504564770 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this is the reason that "overhealing" increases combat damage, as that's a common sort of semipermanent change to want to make) < 1504564774 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also is it supposed to be playable with just the paper cards and not much other tools, esp. no computer, < 1504564777 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about "what'sitcalled", but sure, yes, it's generally slow. Though a lot of the non-"wiki" things are still wiki-related, that's just filtering to actual MediaWiki page loads. < 1504564788 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :grafana < 1504564791 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, it's meant to be playable with just cards and counters for current health < 1504564796 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's grafana, yes. < 1504564804 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also meant to be much simpler than M:tG UI-wise on a computer < 1504564821 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Priority is pretty tricky to implement well on a computer, I imagine. < 1504564837 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, priority here passes much less often than M:tG < 1504564847 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty much entirely "do you want to respond to this?" < 1504564857 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't really see why this would be much simpler UI-wise than M:tG, but obviously it depends on the details like what cards you have < 1504564874 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only one person having priority at any given time means that there's no arguments over who plays a card "first" < 1504564900 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: think about one player going to combat in M:tG, when the other player has an instant in their hand that they can play < 1504564921 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :explaining how that works even in M:tG in paper is complicated, and in fact there had to be a rules change recently due to people exploiting the nature of the priority passing rules < 1504564935 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and on a computer, you either have to click OK a lot of times or configure "always yield" settings for the various parts of combat < 1504564979 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What rules change? < 1504565016 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: IIRC it was a change to exactly what happened if someone said "go to combat" < 1504565034 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's because the current UI sucks. you could have a better UI that allowed you to continue specifying your actions assuming the other players use the default until either (a) you deliberately want to wait for other players to confirm they do the default to avoid revealing info or (b) the game would have to reveal you some info that you do < 1504565034 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :n't already know, eg. drawing a card. < 1504565058 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you play the game that way, which is sort of similar to what happens when you play on paper, then there's much less messing with priority. < 1504565078 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the other player decides to not do just the default actions, then the game rolls back to the point where he first doesn't do the default actions. < 1504565110 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is implementable by computer, and I think it would be easier to use and learn for the players than the current system. < 1504565129 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: see a) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/24/policy-changes-for-amonkhet/ (from "Communication" onwards), b) https://blogs.magicjudges.org/telliott/2017/04/27/how-to-think-about-the-new-combat-shortcut/ < 1504565136 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it still only works if you have no more lag than earth-mooon sized ones between the players) < 1504565140 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504565145 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you might want to see those too < 1504565159 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I've heard of them, but let me check them < 1504565163 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's really good evidence of quite how complicated M:tG gets in corner cases to stop people pulling priority scams on each other < 1504565276 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1504565460 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504565779 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, that second article I linked seems to think there's a card named "Grizzly Bear" < 1504565819 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais: no, it seems to think "Grizzly Bear" is a reasonable shortcut to name a creature < 1504565845 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess < 1504565854 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which it is I think, although it's sort of moot because that card is more an example there than a real card used in tournament < 1504565861 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in that case "attack with grizzly bears" is ambiguous as it's implied that there are two of them, so are you attacking with one or both? < 1504565877 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess that it'd be obvious if they didn't have vigilance < 1504565882 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use such simple well-known cards as examples in rules questions too, even though I don't actually play Grizzly Bears in my decks (I do have that card in my collection) < 1504565924 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I own one as well? but it isn't a very good card < 1504565960 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I own Flashcoat Bears which is practically always better, unless you have Petroglyphs < 1504565965 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1504565970 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called Ashcoat Bears < 1504565975 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Ashcoat Bears < 1504565978 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1504565980 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Ashcoat Bear < 1504565981 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ashcoat Bear \ 1G \ Creature -- Bear \ 2/2 \ Flash (You may cast this spell any time you could cast an instant.) \ TSP-C < 1504565985 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that then < 1504566013 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't even play that one < 1504566045 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But everyone knows about that card, which is why it's great for rules examples < 1504566070 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name kalonian tusker < 1504566071 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kalonian Tusker \ GG \ Creature -- Beast \ 3/3 \ M14-U < 1504566080 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still not all that good, but better in a green deck < 1504566157 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy looking through all the 3/3s for 2 < 1504566168 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :smuggler's copter is probably the best (and indeed, got banned in standard) < 1504566173 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name smuggler's copter < 1504566174 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Smuggler's Copter \ 2 \ Artifact -- Vehicle \ 3/3 \ Flying \ Whenever Smuggler's Copter attacks or blocks, you may draw a card. If you do, discard a card. \ Crew 1 (Tap any number of creatures you control with total power 1 or more: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn.) \ KLD-R < 1504566200 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the drawback turned out not to be nearly large enough < 1504566306 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but that one is relatively new. If you have the double green mana, back in my days Elvish Warrior or Simic Guildmage were the most decent choices, then later we got Garruk's Companion. < 1504566328 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want only one colored mana, there's also Stonewood Invoker and later Woodland Changeling which are slightly better than the bears. < 1504566354 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the guildmage cycle is one of the things that started jading me to Magic < 1504566356 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Simic Guildmage and Stonewood Invoker and Woodland Changeling are elves) < 1504566372 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought "a 2/2 with no drawbacks for {R/B}{R/B} is bigger than those colours normally get" < 1504566547 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was at that time. these days we at least have 2/2 with no drawbacks for RR < 1504566587 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Black Knight always existed, and was printed in large numbers, but I don't think there were many other choices for a 2/2 for BB with no drawbacks < 1504566630 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(before Kamigawa) < 1504566693 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1504566729 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name ash zealot < 1504566730 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ash Zealot \ RR \ Creature -- Human Warrior \ 2/2 \ First strike, haste \ Whenever a player casts a spell from a graveyard, Ash Zealot deals 3 damage to that player. \ RTR-R < 1504566731 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Oh, not a game rules change. < 1504566740 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: tournament rules change < 1504566772 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that one does have a drawback of course < 1504566776 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, technically speaking ash zealot has a drawback? but it's hardly ever going to come up (especially if you build a deck accordingly < 1504566781 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1504566784 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1504566812 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504567098 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Ash Zealot is much newer < 1504567112 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's from RTR, that's lots of years later than ravnica with the guildmages < 1504567274 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok, maybe you're sort of right and something like those rules might avoid some of the priority shenanigans. but of course the cost is that you don't yet have twenty years of history you have to be compatible with, or even twenty years of carefully designed future cards with enough new thing each year to keep players interested. < 1504567303 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, some of the priority problems may have been avoided by designing against them from the start. < 1504567314 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I don't think it's that big of a difference. < 1504567471 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I believe this sort of the priority problem is the #1 reason that online Magic isn't more popular < 1504567686 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is it? I thought it was mostly because people don't want to buy both paper cards and online cards, and paper is the obvious choice < 1504567751 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine a few years into the future cards would have unique identifiers printed on it (unique per copy) so you can easily load them into your online account, but even that solves only half of the problem. < 1504567755 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: compare Hearthstone to Duels of the Planeswalkers < 1504567838 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: M:tG is old. it started when online wasn't really possible yet. so the first people started in paper, and most people start playing with their friends, and so matching their friends' choice of paper vs online. < 1504567873 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hearthstone started in 2014 and was designed as an online game in first place < 1504567877 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: also the original rules weren't very thought out < 1504567889 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of progress has been made at trying to tame the chaos < 1504567893 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1504567898 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's definitely true < 1504567910 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :M:tG is the most popular TCG only because it was the first one < 1504567920 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not even sure it's still the most popular < 1504567935 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it probably is < 1504567936 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably is? < 1504567942 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's apparently had a lot of growth recently < 1504567948 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite doing its best to drive away all the existing players < 1504567968 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from BFZ to Amonkhet, they appear to have had no idea how to balance the game < 1504567982 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and had to make emergency changes to their internal processes in an attempt to bring things back under control < 1504567992 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't played any of those sets. < 1504568005 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has it gotten much worse than before? < 1504568020 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was the famous incident a while back when they declared (on the banned and restricted announcement day) that they weren't banning a card, then had to emergency ban it a few days later < 1504568060 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: we've had four Standard bans over the last year or so (Reflector Mage, Smuggler's Copter, (Emrakul, the Promised End), Felidar Guardian) < 1504568074 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Magic hardly ever bans cards from Standard, when they do it's normally a sign that they really screwed up < 1504568094 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's a) a pretty small format, making it easier to catch problems in it, b) one of the two main formats they focus on when balancing < 1504568103 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :BFZ block additionally managed to break Modern < 1504568106 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and lead to bans there, too < 1504568260 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: anyway, many M:tG interface problems are a consequence of the way rules changed over time < 1504568267 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally you had to float mana before playing spells, which is simple enough < 1504568279 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell, so the rules changed to let you generate mana then too < 1504568292 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we have a situation where floating mana exists but is rarely used, and spells have two sequences for playing them < 1504568305 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd have been a lot neater to just not have a mana pool from the start, but it's too late to change now < 1504568333 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1504568376 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I can sort of see why that would complicate the interface < 1504568677 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: whoa, what? < 1504568695 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what's unclear? < 1504568696 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I learned the rules of the game in 2013, I thought you always had to use mana from your pool to cast spell. It seemed simple enough. < 1504568704 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that hasn't been true for ages < 1504568724 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eventually I learned that you can announce the spell first, and then activate mana abilities to pay for it. < 1504568738 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that there are all sorts of complexities there. < 1504568748 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But now you say that originally it worked the way I thought? < 1504568774 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why did they ever change it? That's such a straightforward way to handle it. < 1504568776 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in early Magic, yes < 1504568781 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and because people kept doing it wrong < 1504568790 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"people persistently started tapping lands /while/ playing the spell" -- that's definitely not an excuse. < 1504568804 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Magic designers/developers/rules team seem to think that it's better to change the rules to allow for human nature, than to try to fight it < 1504568807 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can just say that it's a shortcut or whatever you want that has the same effect. No need to make a big rules change for it. < 1504568813 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: the mana is in the pool, but during the process of casting a spell or activating the ability, you get a chance to activate mana abilities (with a few rare exceptions) if the spell or ability needs mana payment < 1504568822 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1504568827 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Yes, I know how it works now. < 1504568843 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: another big reason is cards that let people make payments unexpectedly < 1504568850 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name rhystic study < 1504568850 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rhystic Study \ 2U \ Enchantment \ Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may draw a card unless that player pays {1}. \ PR-C < 1504568857 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, not thato ne < 1504568863 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the rhystic cycle generally < 1504568881 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also when they added that rule, it didn't make the rules too complicated, because a few actions demanded mana payment by a player other than the one who plays the ability, those existed ages ago, and they already had to support activating mana abilities to pay mana. < 1504568882 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"opponents can pay {1} or something good happens to you" is way more powerful if the opponent had to keep {1} floating all the time < 1504568891 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :under the current rules, they can just generate the {1} on the spot < 1504568901 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ais was faster < 1504568903 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :A better reason would be that there are various non-mana payments that you make as you announce the spell/ability, and that there's no reason for mana to be different. < 1504569004 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that doesn't sound like a good reason to me. you'd still make the mana payments during announcing the spell or ability, only now you can also activate most mana abilities (which generate most of your mana) at that time < 1504569023 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I kind of like that one interaction that these rules make possible. < 1504569046 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. < 1504569049 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name wall of roots < 1504569050 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wall of Roots \ 1G \ Creature -- Plant Wall \ 0/5 \ Defender \ Put a -0/-1 counter on Wall of Roots: Add {G} to your mana pool. Activate this ability only once each turn. \ MI-C, TSP-S, ARC-C < 1504569095 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you had a spell that costs {G} and as an additional cost requires you to sacrifice a creature, and you have a Wall of Roots with four -0/-1 counters on it, you could use it to pay for the spell. < 1504569111 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is arguably a problem for the learnability of Magic < 1504569121 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh no. it generates lots of really ugly interactions, mostly because you can do heavy effects like moving cards between zones for the cost of a mana ability, and that can in turn immediately generate even heavier effects, including players leaving the game. it's totally rare, but shouldn't be possible. < 1504569126 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as many such tricks work and many such tricks don't and it can need an intricate knowledge of the rules to work out which is which < 1504569158 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you're reminding me of the tricks you can use in multiplayer games to pick on players via conceding at specific moments < 1504569166 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the idea that a player can lose immediately, rather than only the next time state-based effects are checked, is a bad idea, complicates multiplayer rules a whole lot < 1504569178 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, but it can happen without conceding < 1504569183 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rarely, but it can < 1504569185 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some playgroups actually have a house rule that you have to wait until the stack is empty before conceding, in order to prevent that happening < 1504569199 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :from indirect effects by a mana ability < 1504569199 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I assume this involves replacement effects? things like paying your last point of life aren't fast enough < 1504569223 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: uh, I don't quite remember. < 1504569230 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe I'm just stupid here and conceding is the only way < 1504569264 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even then, without players losing, there are rules patching around the problem that activating mana abilities may require you to reveal new information like drawing a card. those information are hidden because of extra rules. < 1504569272 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to preserve rollbackability < 1504569321 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name lich < 1504569322 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ As Lich enters the battlefield, you lose life equal to your life total. \ You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ Whenever you're dealt damage, sacrifice that many nontoken permanents. If you can't, you lose the game. \ When Lich is put into a graveyard < 1504569329 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's a triggered ability < 1504569336 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a card like that where it's a replacement ability < 1504569340 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the other problem is of course that stupid Wurm.) < 1504569341 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it lets the game loss happen at mana ability speed < 1504569345 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name nefarious lich < 1504569346 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nefarious Lich \ BBBB \ Enchantment \ If damage would be dealt to you, exile that many cards from your graveyard instead. If you can't, you lose the game. \ If you would gain life, draw that many cards instead. \ When Nefarious Lich leaves the battlefield, you lose the game. \ OD-R < 1504569354 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that's a replacement ability < 1504569375 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, the original lich too < 1504569382 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm not sure offhand that you can deal damage at mana ability speed < 1504569386 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :original lich is triggered < 1504569386 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait, not the original one < 1504569432 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Adarkar Wastes < 1504569433 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Adarkar Wastes \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {T}: Add {W} or {U} to your mana pool. Adarkar Wastes deals 1 damage to you. \ IA-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 9ED-R, 10E-R < 1504569496 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I thought that cycle went via a trigger somehow < 1504569501 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it doesn't, so that works I think < 1504569505 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's the more popular title, the shocklands < 1504569544 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name Watery Grave < 1504569545 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Watery Grave \ Land -- Island Swamp \ ({T}: Add {U} or {B} to your mana pool.) \ As Watery Grave enters the battlefield, you may pay 2 life. If you don't, Watery Grave enters the battlefield tapped. \ RAV-R, GTC-R, EXP-M < 1504569559 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I came across the painlands first < 1504569563 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it makes you pay life, which won't kill you < 1504569569 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but misremembered them as working like city of brass < 1504569587 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which would be very awkward wording, so I'm not surprised they don't!) < 1504569591 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`card-by-name city of brass < 1504569591 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :City of Brass \ Land \ Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you. \ {T}: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. \ AN-U, CH-R, 5E-R, 6E-R, 7E-R, 8ED-R, MMA-R, ME4-R < 1504569592 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18fe@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, the shocklands are in ravnica, and they're so popular because they have basic land types, and there are search lands searching for lands with basic land types