< 1504742873 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504745017 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504745295 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504746795 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504749932 0 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Ping timeout: 615 seconds < 1504749941 0 :rumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric < 1504751494 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504751791 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504752653 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504752846 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1504753136 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-loud < 1504753136 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e said 16h 37m 50s ago: @hoogle not responding at all is strange indeed, but I have no clue why; no suspicious OOM kills, and it's running locally; maybe an IO bottleneck and resulting timeout... < 1504753136 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : how would one diagnose this < 1504753155 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions. < 1504753156 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1504753159 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1504753166 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell incomprehensibly it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions. < 1504753166 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1504753169 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh < 1504753178 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell int-e it actually did respond with a list of packages, just not the actual functions. < 1504753178 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1504753212 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell incomprehensibly ...tab completion error. < 1504753212 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1504753359 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: See ya! o/ < 1504753566 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 QUIT :Quit: See Ya. < 1504753582 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504753743 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504754015 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504755692 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Drawkcab14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53052&oldid=52138 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+0) 10C++ ----> ++C < 1504756896 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504757098 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1504757496 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504757590 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504758359 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504760215 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504760495 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504760671 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504761594 0 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1504761611 0 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504761616 0 :Gregor!dlopen@71.19.155.102 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504761617 0 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504761712 0 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504761719 0 :Warrigal!~tswett@192.241.237.138 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504761867 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-56-48.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504762020 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504762069 0 :Gregor!dlopen@71.19.155.102 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504762360 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly QUIT :Quit: Goodbye < 1504763098 0 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1504763505 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504763747 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1504764800 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504766249 0 :SigmundYx_!~quassel@197.1.17.81 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504766329 0 :Hoolootwo!?@? NICK :Hooloovo0 < 1504766364 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.2.44.204 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504766736 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504766836 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504767005 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504767827 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1504769687 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1504770017 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504770287 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504771107 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504771488 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504771636 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: uh, weird < 1504771665 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :am I to conclude that the command line hoogle is not deterministic? < 1504771900 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@128.93.83.11 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504772144 0 :SigmundYx_!~quassel@197.1.17.81 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504772589 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504772775 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504773430 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: well it wasn't on that day, anyway. < 1504773467 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's good enough if it's deterministic some of the time. < 1504773496 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(This was acknowledging oerjan's joke, not missing it and then making the same joke.) < 1504774668 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't know anything tangible that changed between then and now < 1504774759 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(nor did I actually observe the behavior you describe, but that's a smaller issue) < 1504775183 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm perhaps i should paste my log < 1504775258 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:35 =oerjan> @hoogle a->a < 1504775258 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:35 =lambdabot> package base < 1504775258 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:35 =lambdabot> package bytestring < 1504775258 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:35 =lambdabot> package containers < 1504775288 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: it gave the same response to every type i tried < 1504775348 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this "worked" though: < 1504775350 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:34 =oerjan> @hoogle f::(a->b)->(a,c)->(b,c) < 1504775350 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:34 =lambdabot> Formatting.ShortFormatters f :: Real a => Int -> Format r (a -> r) < 1504775353 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:34 =lambdabot> Turtle.Format f :: Format r (Double -> r) < 1504775356 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :08:34 =lambdabot> Debug.SimpleReflect.Vars f :: FromExpr a => a < 1504775364 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1504775369 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a -> a < 1504775369 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude id :: a -> a < 1504775369 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Function id :: a -> a < 1504775369 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a < 1504775372 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a->a < 1504775372 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :package base < 1504775372 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :package bytestring < 1504775372 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :package containers < 1504775378 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :some parsing problem < 1504775382 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1504775395 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: false alarm, it was deterministic anyhow < 1504775430 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try a newer hoogle version soonish, though it may have to wait until october < 1504775435 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm < 1504775467 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a < 1504775467 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Blaze.Html4.FrameSet a :: Html -> Html < 1504775467 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Blaze.Html4.Strict a :: Html -> Html < 1504775467 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Text.Blaze.Html4.Transitional a :: Html -> Html < 1504775485 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: maybe it simply treats everything without a space as an ident < 1504775494 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle Int < 1504775495 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude data Int < 1504775495 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :module Data.Int < 1504775495 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Int data Int < 1504775514 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a ->a < 1504775515 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude id :: a -> a < 1504775515 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Function id :: a -> a < 1504775515 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a < 1504775518 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not quite) < 1504775562 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, this is Hoogle 5.0.9 < 1504775620 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :5.0.13 apparently fixes this < 1504775625 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1504775647 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://github.com/ndmitchell/hoogle/issues/219 < 1504775669 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504775752 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so let's just try installing the new version < 1504775919 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1504776219 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@hoogle a->a < 1504776220 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prelude id :: a -> a < 1504776220 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Data.Function id :: a -> a < 1504776220 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :GHC.Exts breakpoint :: a -> a < 1504776326 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what is the significance of those 'package' results (if they are results at all...)? < 1504776876 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.1.17.81 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504776893 0 :SigmundYx_!~quassel@197.1.17.81 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504776947 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504777162 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504777238 0 :SigmundYx!~quassel@197.1.17.81 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504777368 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :a -> a < 1504777707 0 :SigmundYx_!~quassel@197.1.17.81 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504778323 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1504779548 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504779884 0 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98627.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504780208 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol. today's first SMBC cracks me up http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/pictograms < 1504780224 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504780419 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504780681 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504780759 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not even a chimp < 1504780806 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could be a very stylized one but pls < 1504780876 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0, are you accusing Zach Weinersmith of being able to draw and choosing not to < 1504780917 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :um < 1504780922 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure < 1504780936 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought it was a gorilla at first < 1504780946 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1504780968 0 :TheRegulator!~the_regul@2a01:cb15:8161:bd00:d5ed:1b33:1e6a:1595 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504781225 0 :TheRegulator!~the_regul@2a01:cb15:8161:bd00:d5ed:1b33:1e6a:1595 PART #esoteric : < 1504782283 0 :Melvar`!~melvar@dslb-084-062-098-003.084.062.pools.vodafone-ip.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504782334 0 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-092-072-159-070.092.072.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504782570 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT : < 1504784886 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: I think misrepresenting the visual appearance of chimps is a noble tradition from Irregular Webcomic. < 1504784891 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, it doesn't look like a chimp. < 1504785009 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :us that a meme? < 1504785038 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the more technical sense o the term, that is < 1504785052 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hooloovo0: maybe just a callback < 1504785061 0 :Hooloovo0!~Hoolootwo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1504785084 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more likely it's not intentional at all, only I'm connecting it, and Zach just doesn't care too much about drawing accurately as long as he can get the meaning through < 1504785107 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just funny comic strips, not some hard sci-fi stories < 1504786781 0 :j-bot!eldis4@firefly.nu JOIN :#esoteric < 1504789324 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-ektpncwqwekrwcjc QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504793211 0 :rumble!?@? NICK :grumble < 1504793679 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504793836 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03Therrore 5* 10New user account < 1504795763 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504796518 0 :Mayoi!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504796645 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504796760 0 :Mayoi!?@? NICK :erkin < 1504797518 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: . < 1504799314 0 :Bowserinator!~Bowser@unaffiliated/bowserinator QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504799664 0 :Bowserinator!~Bowser@2a02:748:a800:ca7:ea75:b12d:51:a5c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504799687 0 :Bowserinator!?@? NICK :Guest23223 < 1504801567 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ezhdclanubhtixsk JOIN :#esoteric < 1504803088 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@128.93.83.11 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504803274 0 :jix!~jix@jixco.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504803488 0 :jix!~jix@jixco.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504803755 0 :jix!~jix@jixco.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504803857 0 :jix!~jix@jixco.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504804144 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504804727 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504806174 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504806786 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504806854 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504806976 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504807153 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504807328 0 :Melvar`!?@? NICK :Melvar < 1504807453 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504807994 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504808261 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504808299 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504808328 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1504808780 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504808801 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :evening lads < 1504808829 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504809103 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504809149 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504809156 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1504809162 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:brevity//syn. "shortness" \ iwc//iwc contains puns! Puns galore! Puns after puns after puns! Also science! \ cocoon//Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse. \ it'//It's written with an apostrophe. \ `fetch//`fetch [] downloads files, and is the only web access currently available in HackEgo. It < 1504809166 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1504809166 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2: is a special builtin that cannot be called from other commands. See also `edit. < 1504809432 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504809524 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504809869 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504810303 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504810503 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1504810614 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504810760 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DBF1.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504810791 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504810862 0 :zseri_!~zseri@i5E86D9B5.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504810955 0 :zseri__!~zseri@i5E86CDA8.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504811042 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DBF1.versanet.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504811121 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-1-82-238-218-67.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504811178 0 :zseri_!~zseri@i5E86D9B5.versanet.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1504811195 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, I think I'm getting to the bottom of this < 1504811249 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 QUIT :Quit: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ < 1504811417 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504811639 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAUAAUAGHH it froze again < 1504812266 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504813198 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504813226 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1504813269 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504813473 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504813982 0 :zseri_!~zseri@i5E86DD6A.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1504814193 0 :zseri__!~zseri@i5E86CDA8.versanet.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504814632 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1504815090 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504815212 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504815303 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504815334 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi guys < 1504815401 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: bottom of what, and what froze? a drink? < 1504815403 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1504815470 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how are you all today? < 1504815488 0 :Guest23223!?@? NICK :Bowserinator < 1504815494 0 :Bowserinator!~Bowser@2a02:748:a800:ca7:ea75:b12d:51:a5c3 QUIT :Changing host < 1504815494 0 :Bowserinator!~Bowser@unaffiliated/bowserinator JOIN :#esoteric < 1504815764 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1504816271 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah rats < 1504816302 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :battey went out during creation of my recovery stick. < 1504816308 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :3h wasted. < 1504816322 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this keyboard can't really tolerate fast writing. < 1504816331 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*typing < 1504816355 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it'll do for travelling I guess < 1504816450 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: whoa, what keyboard is that? Is it some really old device like a ZX Spectrum? Or some of this fancy modern software like Windows or mobile phone stuff that runs on fast modern hardware but still manages to have reaction times so slow that your keypresses appear on screen only a second later? < 1504816476 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not that I haven't seen that happen on Linux too, but it's still certain bad software that causes that.) < 1504816484 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504816504 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anything in between can easily tolerate much faster writing than basically any human can manage. < 1504816574 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess technically there's also old slow modems with a low communication throughput limit, and old typewriter terminals where the mechanics of the printer limit the speed, but even most of those are fast enough for typical human typing. < 1504816678 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It's a mini notebook < 1504816683 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairly modern. < 1504816698 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a software problem then < 1504816707 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless your typing has to go through network without local echo < 1504816747 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504816790 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Im' probably not usde to hit this hard < 1504816807 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my timing si probably of because hte distance between keys is'nt exaclty thes ame anymore < 1504816823 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this si waht it look like if i try to type fash < 1504816843 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a very narrow keyboard. < 1504816900 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my typing gets bad when I'm angry and doing heated debate flames on internet. you can sometimes see that on IRC, even on this channel. it doesn't quite look like that though. < 1504816950 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Medion-Akoya-E2215T-Convertible.188012.0.html <- a version of this one. < 1504816970 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, funnily, I have difficulty typing slowly. I think it's the centipede problem: I can type English just fine when I do it at the usual fast speed, but when I try to slow down to pay attention to the individual keypresses, I get all confused and forget how to type. < 1504816994 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I try to think of where each individual letter key is, I can only tell that very slowly, even though I press those letters in normal typing easily. < 1504817004 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's normal. < 1504817020 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it happens with pin codes for debit cards etc. as well < 1504817037 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And passwords of other sorts, yes. < 1504817062 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I also have difficulty walking slowly, or also walking anything between my two habitual walking paces, the normal fast one and a slower one. < 1504817082 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They differ in movement, not only speed, which is why I can't just interpolate between. < 1504817114 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The slower pace is also slightly more difficult than the faster pace, at least dexterity wise, not necessarily in energy use.) < 1504817140 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ezhdclanubhtixsk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1504817149 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf. they reskinned the library search webpage of FSzEK. < 1504817182 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it has these input boxes with custom borders, not just ordinary browser input controls with the height forced too small < 1504817226 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't understand that stupid fashion. Even Wikipedia bought into it with checkboxes. I have just fine form controls in my fucking browser, there's no need to reimplement them with something worse. < 1504817281 0 :zseri_!?@? NICK :zseri < 1504817284 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least the custom input boxes usually only differ in appearance, they still use the browser's normal text input. It's much worse when a websites reimplements even the behaviour of control, much worse than the browser.) < 1504817923 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1504817932 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU NEED JAVASCRIPT FORM CONTROLS < 1504817971 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because they don't offer any functionality browsers implemented over the years < 1504817987 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as remembering what you entered when you press backwards or F5 < 1504818098 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :F5? wtf. you press alt-down to bring up the history dropdown. but the javascript implementations also do remember what you typed and offer suggestions, but often with a worse interface, and sometimes in a way that both the browser's dropdown and the custom one appears at the same time and conflict with each other when you try to choose an entry fro < 1504818098 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :m either dropdown. < 1504818107 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tcmnqfmipiqyitsf JOIN :#esoteric < 1504818156 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You press F5 for reloading the page. Or control-R. Either works in all current browsers, the two different shortcuts originate from some difference in two popular competing browsers ages ago. < 1504818239 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's also why you enter the address bar with either control-L (which straight up activates it) or F6 (which cycles between the webpage, the address bar, and the sidebar in typical Windows fashion). < 1504818270 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hob_jonas < 1504818277 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi shachaf < 1504818287 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :My old laptop's keyboard would send F6 if you pressed three keys simultaneously. < 1504818291 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was either hjk or jkl < 1504818307 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a crazy idea, related to esolang community < 1504818425 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: strangely, some keyboards or software start autorepeating a sequence of multiple letters if you hold down multiple letter keys long enough, so you get something like eg. "hkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkjhkj". I could do it with even six letters in some configuration. This seems new to the last five years, and I don't understand why any < 1504818425 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric : hw or sw would do that. Why would it autorepeat more than one key? < 1504818456 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Well, touchpads and touchscreens are now "multitouch" < 1504818462 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it makes sense to extend the same to keyboards. < 1504818485 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, some keyboards just omit a key if you press certain combinations of too many keys at the same time and at least two of them aren't shift keys, but this is sort of an understandable limitation of the electronic wiring. < 1504818512 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :f5 is refresh in pretty much all browsers. < 1504818515 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: typing all letters once when you press the keys simultaneously does make sense. It's autorepeating more than two that doesn't make sense to me. < 1504818529 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: yes, that's what I said < 1504818574 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this notebook actually has touchscreen as well < 1504818591 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in particular, I used a workstation where I couldn't type leftshift+capslock+backtick, which is where "Í" is assigned on my strange keyboard layout. Luckily that's a rare letter. < 1504818643 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the keyboard is definitely a negative point. < 1504818667 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :saner keyboards and software, like this home machine I'm using now, doesn't do either. it allows basically any number of keys simultaneously, and doesn't try to autorepeat multiple keys at the same time < 1504818697 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: um, the keyboard is a negative point in that notebook in what sense? < 1504818709 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not sensitive enough. < 1504818728 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke < 1504818734 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, touchscreens for ordinary computers, eww, I hate those) < 1504818748 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to press firmer and hold the key down a bit longer than on other keyboards. < 1504818762 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning typing at 120WPM really sucks with this keyboard. < 1504818774 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there's certain reasons to use it for some special applications, like in publically accessable terminals that anyone can access. even there I don't like them, but I admit they have some advantages.) < 1504818783 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by which I mean: you can't type over 80WPM on this keyboard. < 1504818804 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: "can tap certain keys and they go down without registering a keystroke" ouch. a keyboard shouldn't do that. < 1504818817 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's like mechanical typewriters < 1504818842 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plug in an external keyboard as a workaround < 1504818866 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it only registers it if you press down exactly in the middle < 1504818881 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's even worse < 1504818888 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I press on the corner it won't register anything. < 1504818906 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you get that notebook? did your job lend it to you for work? < 1504818917 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bought it in a store. < 1504818924 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For 200 bucks. < 1504818934 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a really cheap one. < 1504818938 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does the keyboard feel like physically? is it like cheap normal computer keyboards, or horrible rubber keys, or something else? < 1504818972 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a regular notebook keyboard. < 1504819074 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DD6A.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1504819113 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And there's like 10GB usable space < 1504819118 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clerk said there's 20GB < 1504819123 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1504819158 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is the storage device 20 GB but filled with 10 GB of junk that comes with the system installation or later automatic downloads and caches and temporary files and log files? < 1504819404 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to analyse that first < 1504819407 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504819428 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fdisk < 1504819456 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless it has tricky firmware hiding some of the storage, in which case it's much harder < 1504819474 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1504819482 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this shit should be regulated < 1504819565 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what shit? shipping mobile phones with software full of security hole, even when they aren't deliberate holes for bad reasons but just plain bad development, with updates that make the original android OS even worse, and with no support for downstream security updates later, or no support at all half a year after people buy the phone model? < 1504819576 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or false advertisment? < 1504819588 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a windows < 1504819603 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but bundling products with crap should be regulated yes < 1504819616 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like pre-installing useless crapware < 1504819626 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504819632 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or stuff like anti-virus products that can't be uninstalled < 1504819681 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd actually be in favor of prohibiting pre-installing anything EXCEPT the OS < 1504819723 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a scam to push useless software to unknowing customers. < 1504819758 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows might be the same, I'm just less familiar with it than the android crap < 1504819818 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily mostly only from other people's devices and second hand accounts. so far I've managed to avoid owning any of this smartphone stuff myself, and even my next phone, which I'll probably buy within a year, will be a non-smartphone < 1504819836 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I like my current phone, but electronics does age) < 1504819888 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also now I want more realiability, so with how long this one lives, I might actually buy a new one BEFORE it breaks down or gets stolen, to avoid even a day of downtime. < 1504819889 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1504819981 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504820018 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh < 1504820028 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll do the job. < 1504820037 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I already have a normal notebook < 1504820054 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I didn't want to invest 1200CHF to buy a good mini notebook < 1504820063 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just bought the cheapest one they had :D < 1504820138 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I understand not wanting to buy something more expensive. that's why I specifically said external keyboard as workaround, because that's both cheap and simple < 1504820154 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no space fo external keyboard :) < 1504820155 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a huge market of external keyboards with lots of variation. obviously most of it is crap. < 1504820167 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but keyboards are easier to test in shops than notebooks. < 1504820183 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no space? like, holding the notebook in your lap on a train? < 1504820196 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :backpack < 1504820199 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes < 1504820205 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is going to be my travel notebook < 1504820209 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1504820233 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my backpack is now complete and ready < 1504820247 0 :augur!~augur@c-73-71-242-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504820254 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit on the heavy side though < 1504820255 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember when I was traveling to the airport in Sweden this year, by train. The train had nice tables between the seats. Three people sat together with me, and all three were busy apparently working on a large notebook each. < 1504820273 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but temperatures are anywhere from -15 to +35C here < 1504820273 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They didn't seem to know each other, so it looked as if everyone independently chose to work on the train. < 1504820282 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I had to pack winter stuff as well < 1504820296 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Only the ones sitting close to me though, not everyone else on the train.) < 1504820347 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after my MRI I'm probably going to vanish for some time < 1504820350 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :When I travel within Hungary, I don't often see large notebooks. I see people pushing the touchscreen on tiny smartphone displays, with often a broken display. < 1504820358 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the MRI actually shows something. < 1504820378 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw a girl with a nintendo DS on the bus at one point, it stuck in my memory because it was so unusual. < 1504820378 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't have the will to go from doc to doc anymore. < 1504820386 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vanish where? < 1504820398 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1504820402 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1504820404 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds scary < 1504820412 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I packed for every temperatue range. < 1504820413 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't want to get yourself committed, do you? < 1504820421 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it just some vacation? < 1504820431 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an extended vacation that is? < 1504820437 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you want to leave the environment of your normal home? < 1504820495 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. < 1504820506 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even more scary < 1504820509 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm worried < 1504820512 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1504820526 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you supposed to do otherwise? < 1504820538 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1504820545 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :scary. < 1504820547 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't know your circumstances < 1504820576 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can enjoy vanishing for a vacation, but only for two weeks or so < 1504820583 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people do it for much longer < 1504820604 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm basically ill 3/4 of the time < 1504820607 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like influenza ill < 1504820611 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not influenza < 1504820612 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:8cb:8e0a:7f86:f88a JOIN :#esoteric < 1504820630 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I have very reduced capacity to actually do stuff < 1504820642 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone from our school had enough of everything at some point and suddenly vanished into Nepal, herding yaks on a bicycle or something, and returned a year later. or something. that's a bit distorted version of the rumour, but still. < 1504820646 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means rather poor quality of life < 1504820656 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I also have that, but not that badly < 1504820671 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :slightly ill all the time, seriously ill twice a year, reduced work capacity during < 1504820702 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just took a four month long leave from work, but didn't really vanish, not from work, not from my family or the internet < 1504820711 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not for longer than a week at once at least) < 1504820739 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm too stressed, and also don't do enough sports and healthy eating and all that stuff, and it's a self-reinforcing bad cycle < 1504820756 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also preinstalled software is usually demo 30 days < 1504820759 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after a while I get overweight, which makes my health worse, my future health expectations much worse, but also makes it more difficult to break the habits and do more sports < 1504820763 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not removed after 30 days < 1504820768 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like mcaffee < 1504820775 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'll consume ressources even after that < 1504820778 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's seriously worrying me, but hard to change < 1504820781 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that should be even more illegal. < 1504820794 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so be careful < 1504820798 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can barely work < 1504820815 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope at least you also do have a family supporting you, and that you don't vanish from them at least < 1504820817 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504820819 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like I only have 20% of my cognitive potential avalable < 1504820825 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah no < 1504820830 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, keep a mobile phone < 1504820832 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no family suppoting me < 1504820841 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :weird relationship < 1504820866 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1504820873 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, my memory and mind is getting worse. that's the really scary part, from the inside even more so than from the outside I think, because my family and coworkers can see how I'm fat and unhealthy and can't work as much, but I see that and also how I can't think normally < 1504820895 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not saying my family isn't a "weird relationship", but their support still means a lot for me < 1504820909 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have no family, then you should strive to make one, even if they're not blood relations < 1504820915 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but friends < 1504820936 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can hardly look my parents in the eyes < 1504820942 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and sometimes I can't talk to them < 1504820951 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in: selective mutism can't talk < 1504820966 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :original family is great default in some cases, but I mostly care about them too because they care about me, all they did for me in the past when they were younger and more able to help, but also how they always try support me now as much as they can < 1504820980 0 :^v^v!?@? NICK :^v < 1504820998 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't be comitted :D < 1504821009 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theoretically yes < 1504821012 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :practically no < 1504821023 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that... can be difficult. I hope they can work it around. my mother always seems to somehow correctly guess most of what happens to me, even if I try to not tell everything. it's hard to prove, but I think he has some secret superpowers. < 1504821031 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the rest of my family doesn't have that) < 1504821074 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you at least have enough money to be able to support yourself for a break from work while you regenerate yourself < 1504821082 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my last clinic stay gave me PTSD < 1504821083 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1504821086 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I simply couldn't keep up working all the time < 1504821100 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'd have a _really_ hard time keeping me there. < 1504821129 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: wait, so you say you can't be committed because staying in the clinic has a terrible effect on you? I don't think that's how institution works, but I don't really know < 1504821138 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1504821143 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I don't believe you can't be committed, only that reason seems odd < 1504821168 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :any doctor can legally committ any random person for 24h no questions asked < 1504821217 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the questios is whether any random person would comply. < 1504821231 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, thanks for telling about your situation, it (and other stories on #esoteric ) shows me I'm not alone in some sense < 1504821243 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :theoreticaly the police can enforce admission of course < 1504821259 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just < 1504821264 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for that, I don't know how they keep people in against their will, but they seem good at it. maybe that only works for certain types of people. < 1504821282 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :mroman: are you open to a discussion by PM? < 1504821299 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1504821324 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, technically, I do have some ideas from certain terrible stories my mother told about people who really had to be kept in for a good reason, but I mostly blocked them from my mind < 1504821341 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I try not to pay too much attention to most details of my mother's work, it has a bad effect < 1504821368 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only listen to the part of how it affects her outside her works, like a certain workplace accident when he got his hand bitten, strongly, by a kid < 1504821393 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how overloaded she is with her work because she just can't stop accepting more and more work all the time < 1504821401 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :she's so dedicated < 1504821761 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://dlib.net/ => oh wow. this sounds nice. if it actually lives up to those promises in the front page, then I'll like this library. it reminds me to other well maintained software that I also like. < 1504821827 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(some other such software are http://eigen.tuxfamily.org/ and http://sqlite.org/ . if you already know this dlib thing, and like it, check out those.) < 1504822074 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf, did they change the shortcut for the bookmark manager too? I swear firefox keeps scrambling keyboard shortcuts lately. they've changed the shortcut for the download list twice, between control-J, control-Y, and control-shift-something, and now the bookmarks < 1504822252 0 :ATMunn!~ATMunn@unaffiliated/atmunn26 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504822271 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504822557 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1504822666 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504823430 0 :Mayoi!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1504823599 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1504823713 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1504824027 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504824038 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1504824182 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Client Quit < 1504824192 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504824253 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504824923 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504824984 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504825005 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1504825145 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.52.24.5 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1504825229 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: wait, I wanted to tell about my stupid esolang idea < 1504825235 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I got distracted < 1504825276 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1504825305 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically I was thinking of creating an esolang parody of bad esolangs that some people create and write about on the wiki. < 1504825376 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Statistical Brainfuck is basically that, but I never got round to writing it < 1504825391 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically BF only it infers the commands in use via analysing the program < 1504825398 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll try to use a lot of the bad tropes, such as no really eso features, missing computation power such as not enough control structures or not enough memory access, and also a bad attempt of an implementation that supports only the easier half of the language features, crippling it even more, sometimes fails to match the documentation, and has bug < 1504825398 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s and bad coding that clearly shows the creator doesn't know how to implement interpreters (this part might be hard for me, I'm not saying I write good code, but it's hard to deliberately write code bad in that way) < 1504825399 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if it can't figure it out, prints "Hello, world!". < 1504825412 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ah, right < 1504825432 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easiest way to write a "language from someone who can't write interpreters" is to have no form of control flow at all < 1504825441 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :all the commands run in sequence, then the program ends < 1504825507 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I won't learn Java or C# for just this, even though it would be realistic to write the interpreter in that, and I also won't unlearn C++ to imitate the horrible C++ styles found online, but I'll still try to do justice to using an unsuitable programming language and the wrong features of that langugae. < 1504825530 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: write it in C with a .cpp extension < 1504825539 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should be close enough < 1504825556 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is fairly easy to do even if you're a good programmer < 1504825561 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, that can work, but if I do that, then either I can't write an interpreter at all, or I'll have to write an interpreter that's not obviously lacking important features of the language. that could be more realstic, but also more boring < 1504825578 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python could also work, if you know it < 1504825609 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, those are options. I was also thinking of using C or pascal with some vague label like "Pascal 5.0" that suggests some old DOS interpreter. < 1504825622 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't really decided yet. < 1504825681 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about some proprietary language which is very similar to a more widely used free language? < 1504825689 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only I don't know many examples of those nowadays < 1504825731 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I do know a little mathematica and maple and matlab, which may be enough to write bad code, but I'm not sure how realistic it would be for a newbie to use those to write interpreters < 1504825737 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even bad interpreters < 1504825759 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, how about visual basic < 1504825762 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: right < 1504825763 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can also write C or C++ that only works in microsoft compilers < 1504825769 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, visual basic works perfectly for this < 1504825780 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can learn the relevant parts in like 5 minutes if you don't know it already < 1504825784 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(spending any more time would defeat the purpose) < 1504825795 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C using conio.h would also make sense < 1504825806 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: eww. I mean, I can write bad basic, I used to, even in visual basic, but I would feel so dirty from that as if I wrote php < 1504825821 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, :) < 1504825888 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: pascal with turbo/borland pascal's crt library is sort of the same as conio from turbo/borland c, only older and that much simpler (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler), and was quite popular in the days when people used turbo pascal in DOS for education, and those days haven't completely ended yet < 1504825926 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : (turbo pascal is actually a non-optimizing compiler) ← now I'm even more confused and worried about how when, years ago, I rewrote a Turbo Pascal program in C and it got slower < 1504825939 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, it was a good IDE and library for the context it was made for < 1504825946 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :was there something massively wrong with the library I was using, or something massively wrong with my code? < 1504825984 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: turbo C is an optimizing compiler, but that's basically like a non-optimizing compiler today. sort of like how C is a low-level language now, but was a high level language forty years ago < 1504826009 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :serious projects used assembly for all the performance-critical code < 1504826065 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1504826067 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was easier to mix with C than even now, because there was good support for assembly in the IDEs and debuggers, good support for inline assembly, the compilers had simple ABIs, and the CPU and OS was simpler so optimized assembly prorgamming was easier to learn < 1504826102 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which of course means that most of the assembly programs written back then are worse than what you'd write in C++ today, with some exceptions of master programmers, but still, it was useful at the time < 1504826132 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm trying and failing to remember the precise C compiler I used < 1504826163 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what target platform? MS-DOS? win16 on x86? win32 on x86? < 1504826165 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ABIs are /still/ simple when the signature of the function is simple < 1504826171 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even OS-2? < 1504826191 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I know the computer it was on was running either Windows 95 or Windows 98, but I don't know the platform of the executable, although it was probably a DOS executable < 1504826246 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :turbo C and borland C did support win16 as a target, but few people learned that because then you have to learn a lot about win16 system programming first and get familiar with the libraries < 1504826268 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :win16 was my "main" target platform for several years < 1504826281 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good GUIs are still hard, and it was even harder when you HAD to support cooperative multitasking with no memory protection < 1504826282 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :when it stopped working, I ended up switching to Linux rather than trying to get win32 to work < 1504826300 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(part of the reason behind this is that my compiler had problems making win32 code, possibly due to bitrot) < 1504826315 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cringe! https://scontent.fwaw3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/21317927_870196236467487_2502978163715573443_n.jpg?oh=0036232e6f91b8a0c522171488267087&oe=5A1901C7 < 1504826333 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :win16 + GDI wasn't too bad when you were used to it, anyway, although my programming style was shocking back then < 1504826339 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not shocking, just unsuitable for Windows < 1504826366 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I typically put the entire program logic into the repaint handler, then had a timer to repaint the window at short intervals < 1504826369 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, when did it stop working? I stopped using win16 programs before windows dropped support, but I know win95 OSR2 runs the non-unicode win16 programs winword 2 and 6 and excel 5 fine, and I seem to remember they still ran on win32 < 1504826380 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is actually how most old games consoles work (although I didn't know that at the time), but is very out of place on PC < 1504826405 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: even in windows 98 some of the APIs didn't work < 1504826409 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you mean compilers and libraries stopped supporting win16 programming, as opposed to windows stopped supporting running windows programs? < 1504826410 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like the one to play music through the PC speaker < 1504826419 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically, it never did stop working -- Windows 10 *still* supports Win16, if you're on x86, not x86_64. < 1504826438 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know some of the old APIs didn't work, but those came up in very old win16 programs from before windows 3 (seriously) or older DOS programs < 1504826440 0 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-24-8-135-139.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :That said, I imagine stuff only *kinda* works these days. < 1504826444 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds < 1504826468 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although oddly, if you played one through Windows Media Player, the freeze happened when the file looped for the first time rather than when it was initially loaded) < 1504826483 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: yes, but it's sometimes easier to just run those programs in a full virtual machine < 1504826491 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I worked around this by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen at the start but it meant that the program took ages to load < 1504826516 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows XP reduced this to about a second per file, so it was much more reasonable (although still seems ridiculously large given how simple a MIDI file should be to load) < 1504826535 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do < 1504826554 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than using separate functions which each had their own arguments < 1504826564 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I may have the name of the library wrong, it was ages ago < 1504826581 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, I can imagine the graphics and sound stuff used mostly by games stopped working earlier. that wasn't really MS's target to support. although some of that is because the DOS (and even nominally win16) programs used direct hardware stuff, not documented APIs, for speed and flexibility, and those are much harder to emulate than APIs that < 1504826581 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :reasonably designed wrt future compatibility < 1504826633 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I had to move onto MDI instead which is a pain because on our Windows 98 configuration, attempting to load a MIDI file with MDI caused a freeze of tens of seconds" => hehe, that totally sounds believable. for that era, and for today also < 1504826669 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"by preloading all the MIDI files during a loading screen" => wait, it froze for loading EACH midi file? that's even worse < 1504826685 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :couldn't you work it around by loading just one big midi file and playing sections? < 1504826733 0 :mroman!b2c5ed33@gateway/web/freenode/ip.178.197.237.51 QUIT :Quit: need sleep < 1504826752 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"also, IIRC MDI used a "command-line" API where you called a function and passed a string to it describing what you want to do" => we use the euphemism "domain-specific language" rather than "command line" for APIs like that < 1504826773 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they still exist these days, and are sometimes good but sometimes terrible < 1504826809 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :i like sqlite < 1504826822 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a reasonably good example is SQLite, where most of the API is SQL statements, and people keep asking for a more direct C api for many functions, but the devs wisely don't add such a thing, because that would make future compatibility much harder < 1504826911 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bad example is G'MIC's api, although I don't know enough about it to be sure. it involves syntax horror with impossible quoting of the like cmd and powershell could envy. < 1504826919 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it can access files from the file system. < 1504827002 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might also count cases where an interpreter was first and an API was added as an afterthought but the API wasn't designed, it just evolved from trying to hack the interpreter. perl is the classical example, but I seem to remember there was a few more like that. < 1504827060 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm not sure what controlled the duration of the freeze, it might have been that a large file froze for logner < 1504827073 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(perl 5 obviously < 1504827094 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: SQLite does have a direct C API for many of its functions < 1504827122 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl 6 has an overdesigned impossible to implement API with second system effect, completely unlike the rest of the language, because the designer for that is a different person from Larry who has the vision for the language proper) < 1504827163 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: direct C api for many of the auxiliary functions, but not for the database table accesses, which would be sort of the main point < 1504827267 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also while it tries hard to pretend that it has a complete API for writing new SQL functions, there are actually a few things that the builtin functions can do but that are impossible with the public API. I asked about one or two of this, and it's by design, because they couldn't figure out a good enough API for that functionality yet, so they'll r < 1504827267 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ather not add bad APIs that will constrain future compat. < 1504827429 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, MIN and MAX magically compare text values (character strings, they just use a strange term) with the collating function appropriate for the column, when the documented API makes that impossible < 1504827469 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also a few builtin optimizations for MIN and MAX, but then those are transparent optimizations so that's OK < 1504827534 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, if I create such a parody, I'll try to create a new user account on the esowiki for it, with a little background personality story, and perhaps call it fungot < 1504827535 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: this, my friends, is the malaise of the glutton at life's buffet, building complicaters? domino frustraters? wobbley times u.s.a.? um, maybe if i told his jokes < 1504827592 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, isn't perl 6 basically an elaborate esolang in the intercal tradition by now < 1504827592 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: yes, and some of the things they promise are actually physically impossible. it is starting to sound like one of those pseudoscience products actually < 1504827592 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: this is a very common fantasy among children played hopscotch! maybe! i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. they'll just go somewhere else. < 1504827608 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't know < 1504827644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1504827644 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://glyphic.s3.amazonaws.com/ozone/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg < 1504827649 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I should try to hide some specific community in-jokes or references in the text too < 1504827664 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:8cb:8e0a:7f86:f88a QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1504827674 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: yes, I can see why it's like an esolang, it's just the Intercal part that I don't understand < 1504827695 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well intercal's philosophy was 'be a bizarre reflection of a serious language' < 1504827722 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and some of the perl6 features it has are very impractical to interpret even programs that sparesly use them, like computed come from < 1504827742 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas the vast majority of esolangs are along the brainfuck/befunge tradition of 'be some utterly weird model of computation' < 1504827775 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: but it doesn't look like a reflection of any language to me. quite the opposite, it seems a very unique language in its feature set and design, different from everything else I've seen, it's just that the feature set and design is terrible < 1504827802 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true of intercal too man < 1504827908 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1504827948 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perl6 has some parts of utterly weird model of computation, such as how it stores data. you can imagine it as a parody of perl5, where in perl5 it occured mostly from historical compatibility and different features trying to have different models utterly incompatible with each other, as in DWIM scalars a la perl/bash/tcl versus scalars that know th < 1504827948 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eir dynamical type a la python/ruby; in perl6 it's a straight up design without much historical compatibility reasons that ends up looking like a bad parody. < 1504827952 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i've never looked into perl 6 too deeply b/c it was always too incomprehensible in my 'learn all the languages' phase < 1504827973 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, I didn't look at it deeply either < 1504827996 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm actively avoiding it now, sort of like how I avoid PHP < 1504828061 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is that PHP has a bad history like C++ and has actually improved a lot in recent versions, slowly turning into a good language, but with most of the code monkeys using it still using all the bad programming practices they learn from past bad code examples and old books; < 1504828076 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas perl6 isn't like that. < 1504828144 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so weird about perl 6's scalars < 1504828169 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not avoiding PHP because it's such a bad language, but because I have a superstition that the four big p languages (perl, ruby, python and php) are mutually incompatible in that any one person must choose at most three unless they want to tempt fate, and I already know too much about perl, ruby, and python. < 1504828205 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't remember. I managed to deliberately forget most of the specific knowledge I acquired about perl 6. I'm happier not knowing now. < 1504828216 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's possible that the scalars aren't the problem. < 1504828245 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only retained the general warning sign reasons so that I know why I shouldn't revisit it ever. < 1504828256 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, to avoid the "how bad can it be" thing < 1504828308 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not easy to suppress stuff, which is why I have to completely avoid the language or else the suppressed memories might resurface < 1504828507 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait wait. how can a modern library provide a portable thread abstraction and at the same time have structures with non-threadsafe reference counting. that makes no sense. < 1504828544 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :atomic refcounts are not hard to implement these days, there are tons of other code you can copy from if you want the portability, and they're almost always just as fast as non-threadsafe refcounts if there's no contention of multiple threads accessing the same refcount close to the same time, with the unusual exception when there's page tear < 1504828570 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/page tear/cache line tear/ < 1504828587 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cache line tear as in different threads accessing different parts of a cache line with at least one writing < 1504828619 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even with cache line tear you don't lose much performance compared to non-threadsafe code < 1504828628 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you don't lose any, I'm not sure < 1504828639 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that cache line tear already loses you performance, no matter what < 1504828658 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just have to avoid it, just like you avoid unaligned objects that pass through a cache line boundary < 1504828687 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both are simply technologically impossible to support efficiently, there's nothing to do but avoid them whenever performance matters < 1504828791 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but most of the time they're easy to avoid: just align all objects, and use a memory allocator that's reasonably threading aware. if you do that, then you usually have to do specifically stupid things as in disabling the safety that's already there to get misalignment, and typically have to do design that already has bad performance to get cache li < 1504828791 0 :wob_jonas!b03f18ff@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.255 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ne tear