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00:05:05 <wob_jonas> sorry for the rant, it's annoying. I should set up a blog where I put all the stupid rants I talk about all the time
00:10:45 <\oren\> pholy fuck this code is so poisonous it causes the debugger itself to lock up
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00:13:48 <\oren\> like I can set a break point at line 180, and hit continue, and then gdb will output its prompt, and THEN the system locks up
00:21:26 <\oren\> I can step through this part of the code, but not continue through it
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01:15:56 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
01:16:02 <fungot> wob_jonas: hey, t-rex, i've a long road ahead of me, it would be flattering. ready... set... go! on to, but i don't like them, you have to be wacky to go on a walk!
01:16:03 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
01:30:55 <fungot> oerjan: and that is good, but now each of them has met their maker.
01:30:56 <HackEgo> 2/42: please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! \ 56) <fungot> i am sad ( of course by analogy) :) smileys) \ 57) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 80) <AnMaster>
01:31:11 <fungot> oerjan: oh, t-rex, i'm not sure i should do this" they'd say, and hey presto, you're a muslim! bears do it, but the more they'll find you
01:31:12 <HackEgo> 695) <fungot> elliott_: how usable is borges in the real world
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01:39:06 <fungot> ATMunn: i've never been to the bottom of a bottle. everything is similar but different! everybody i know gets to write one chapter, and they don't do anything they might regret before they get married, and have children! the only career she wants to spend a friday as weekend, why not monday too?
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02:46:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cubestate]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53053&oldid=53051 * Raumaankidwai * (+61)
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03:49:59 <oerjan> everyone knows SIGABRT smoking is lethal
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11:56:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53054&oldid=50433 * SuperJedi224 * (+51)
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13:23:31 <HackEgo> [U+2580 UPPER HALF BLOCK] [U+2584 LOWER HALF BLOCK]
13:23:39 <izabera> where is middle half block?
13:24:28 <b_jonas> izabera: I don't think there's one. these two are for drawing block graphics.
13:26:36 <izabera> yeah but i wanted to draw a line that's half as high as a normal line and i wanted it in the middle
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13:33:40 <b_jonas> well, graphics is sometimes good at drawing lines, although there are kinds of graphics that isn't, such as tile+sprite graphics
13:34:48 <FireFly> not really the same thing, but it's vertically centred and ~the right size
13:35:30 <FireFly> I know, I know, abusing Braille glyphs as monochrome bitmap-drawing chars…
13:40:42 <HackEgo> [U+2501 BOX DRAWINGS HEAVY HORIZONTAL]
13:42:03 <b_jonas> that doesn't have much font support though
13:42:27 <b_jonas> because ▄ is in cp437 and similar
13:42:47 <FireFly> Is one of ▀ or ▄ more commonly supported than the other?
13:43:15 <FireFly> I usually use ▀ when I want to draw blocky graphics in programs, so that fg = top pixel, bg = bottom pixel
13:44:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: no, except that the commodore 64 video always has 128 normal displayable characters and 128 inverse images of those, so one of them is in the lower half and one in the upper half, but that shouldn't matter much. also on some displays one of them might be a pixel higher than the other.
13:44:16 <b_jonas> (if the character grid is an odd pixel height)
13:45:13 <FireFly> I think all my fonts have had character grids of even height, heh (usually the height of capital letters is odd, though)
13:45:27 <FireFly> as in, the ones I've designed, not ones I've used
13:45:53 <b_jonas> (it also has at least two different charsets of 128 chars that you can toggle for the whole screen easily, but that doesn't matter)
13:46:18 <FireFly> b_jonas: have you seen https://hackaday.com/2016/12/15/character-generation-in-144-bytes/ btw? since you're interested in bitmap fonts and it's a kinda #esoteric thing wrt them
13:49:04 <FireFly> It's a cool idea to design a font that can be stored in a tiny space by re-using tiles between glyphs
13:50:08 <b_jonas> FireFly: I haven't. I have written a DOS COM program that loads a 16x9 VGA font I drew, but it only bothers to load the 95 printable ASCII characters or so, plus the 18 accented Hungarian letters,
13:51:07 <b_jonas> the table for ASCII font is stored raw in the COM file so that's like 95*16 bytes, but then the 18 accented ones have only the scanlines of the accents stored, and it generates them procedurally.
13:51:25 <FireFly> When I drew a bitmap font recently inspired by that hackaday post, I only bothered with uppercase, digits and a few punctuation characters
13:51:31 <FireFly> not even full printable-ASCII coverage
13:51:51 <b_jonas> Neither the compression scheme nor the code isn't too optimized though, partly because it's already small enough, and partly because I didn't know better.
13:52:09 <b_jonas> As for "bothered with", well, that one isn't a particularly good font.
13:52:35 <b_jonas> fecupboard20, the 10x20 font that I made later, is much better
13:52:37 <FireFly> reminds me of how ^~`'", in ASCII acted as diacritics too, via overstriking
13:52:48 <FireFly> Yeah, I have a copy of fecupboard20 somewhere
13:52:51 <b_jonas> FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals.
13:53:41 <FireFly> I should make a page collecting my bitmap fonts… and provide them in more useful formats
13:55:04 <FireFly> b_jonas: https://twitter.com/FireyFly/status/899965577481129984 this was what I ended up with when I designed a font with the "re-use tiles" constraint from the hackaday post btw (it's bad as a programming font since 0=O, 1=I, 5=S, but intended for demo-y contexts where size matters)
13:55:25 <b_jonas> FireFly: that would be nice
13:56:12 <FireFly> Yeah, currently my fonts are only provided in… ummm… my own "bitmap font format", which is really just a convenient way for me to edit it as a png
13:58:07 <b_jonas> FireFly: I don't know how that compares to a COM file, but then for the two fonts I put in a COM file I later also extracted to headerless raw VGA font format
13:58:15 <b_jonas> so that I can load them on Linux console too
13:59:04 <FireFly> I mostly just like designing fonts with harsh constraints placed on the design
13:59:11 <FireFly> like very harsh size constrains, for instance
14:00:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: this is the 9x16 VGA font in the smaller COM file: http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/stickfont-screenshot0.png
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14:00:49 <b_jonas> and it is sort of constrained to have only hollow lines,
14:00:49 <FireFly> I think I would fill in the vertical lines rather than backboard-bold it
14:01:04 <b_jonas> sure, that would look better. this one isn't really a readable text font
14:01:15 <FireFly> Yeah, more presentational?
14:01:19 <b_jonas> it's rather a fancy heading font, which I know makes no sense in VGA text mode
14:01:26 <b_jonas> it doesn't really have a good purpose
14:01:40 <b_jonas> it was just something I made back when I had lots of time for stupid experiments but less experience
14:02:11 <b_jonas> the * character look s particularly ugly, I tried to redraw it several times but couldn't get anything reasonable
14:02:57 <FireFly> I made a new lowercase for a 8×4px-tile font (7×3px size for capital letters), making the lowercase one pixel smaller, but more consistent in size across letters
14:03:17 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/2017-09-08_141818.png
14:03:21 <b_jonas> that tiled font you made looks quite nice though
14:03:39 <FireFly> Yeah, I'm pretty content with it
14:03:56 <FireFly> I was thinking it'd look okay in a game (I had this js13kgames competition in mind when I made it)
14:04:47 <b_jonas> the other font I made was actually usable as a terminal font. it was fecupboard18, which only ever had 256 characters of coverage, and I never distributed it because of copyright reasons:
14:05:12 <b_jonas> I made most of it by combining characters from three or four existing 16x9 VGA terminal fonts, picking whichever I liked the best,
14:05:19 <b_jonas> and edited only a few characters specifically
14:06:00 <b_jonas> Fecupboard20 started as a sort of successor, but completely copyright laundered, but it grew to have a rather different visual style, and much more character coverage eventually
14:06:47 <b_jonas> Fecupboard20 also originally had only 256 characters (and a lot of them were just copies of other characters), and even now the ASCII part is way more mature than the little non-ASCII coverage it has
14:06:59 <b_jonas> it still both has too few characters, and some of the non-ASCII stuff is REALLY ugly
14:07:03 <FireFly> Most of my fonts cover only printable ASCII + assorted glyphs that I found interesting to draw
14:07:13 <b_jonas> the whole greek letters part should be thrown out and redone from scratch for example
14:07:37 <FireFly> I think only oneof my fonts cover greek
14:07:44 <b_jonas> FireFly: fecupboard20 covers printable ASCII plus assorted glyphs that I found interesting to *display*
14:08:05 <FireFly> Yeah, that's probably more useful :P
14:08:07 <b_jonas> FireFly: this doesn't cover greek, it only has the basic greek alphabet intended for simple mathematical formulas
14:08:51 <b_jonas> entirely unsuitable for greek text
14:09:22 <b_jonas> if I want to add language coverage, I'd add more latin letters and russian before I even tried to draw greek
14:09:50 <b_jonas> both because greek is less useful, I rarely try to read or write greek text, I only use greek letters for maths formulas,
14:10:08 <b_jonas> and because greek is slightly harder to draw if you want it actually nice-looking
14:10:16 <FireFly> Hm, honestly I don't know if my greek is good for greek text
14:10:25 <b_jonas> not that cyrillic is easy to draw either
14:10:33 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/7x5px-font.png
14:10:46 <FireFly> the height is probably awfully off for my greek lowercase here
14:10:53 <FireFly> well, awfully inconsistent
14:10:57 <b_jonas> obviously supporting greek text is nice and possible, but not in a font that only covers like 2000 characters
14:11:28 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/9x5px-font.png oh I guess this one has greek too
14:11:29 <b_jonas> FireFly: wow, that actually has greek letters!
14:11:44 <b_jonas> and I don't think you made it up on the fly as I mentioned it, that would be too fast, you probably already had it
14:12:48 <FireFly> 9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px, so a lot of the glyphs are shared between them
14:12:57 <FireFly> Just more space for ascenders/descenders
14:12:58 <b_jonas> and it actually looks like acceptable greek letter glyphs to me too
14:13:10 <FireFly> 2px for each rather than 1px for each (1px ascender/descender is really tiny :P)
14:13:23 <b_jonas> "9x5px has the same x-height as 9x5px," huh?
14:13:32 <b_jonas> what's the difference between those two?
14:14:12 <b_jonas> well yes. 8x16 and 9x16 would share like a third of the characters too, but I never really tried to make a 8x16 font.
14:14:28 <FireFly> the 7x5px-font.png has 5px x-height, 1px for asc/desc (thus, 7px space reserved for letters), the 9x5px-font.png has 5px x-height and 2px for asc/desc
14:14:39 <b_jonas> there didn't seem a point, with vertical screen estate always more precious than horizontal screen estate
14:15:56 <FireFly> I mean, I like having terminals open side-by-side, but would still want 80-90 chars' width
14:16:12 <FireFly> if, say, having files open in vim or so
14:17:09 <b_jonas> FireFly: there are also 5+x7+ and 5+x8+ and x8+ fonts with no space allocated for descenders and 5 pixel x height, where the + means it's shown on displays with gap between the fixed character cells, and the x8+ is variable width shown on single-line pixel displays on information boards
14:18:59 <FireFly> My tiniest fonts (3px and 4px high) are variable-width out of necessity… (also, are really uppercase-only/don't cover full printable-ASCII)
14:19:05 <b_jonas> on modern large TFTs, you now get to do that with 9px width, even if we didn't on older 1024px wide TFT and good CRT monitors
14:19:19 <FireFly> Well, the 4px-high font *has* a lowercase but it's awful and I know it's awful
14:19:23 <FireFly> I wouldn't actually use ti
14:19:42 <b_jonas> (for some worse CRT monitors, 1024px wide had too many rows and wouldn't display nicely, and video cards didn't have enough memory for high color depth at 1024x width)
14:20:49 <b_jonas> yeah, that was back when the choice between 4, 8, 16, 24 bits of color depth was a real problem, and lots of software had to have extra code for supporting reasonable graphics at lower color depths
14:21:12 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/fonts/4px-font.png ← there are some horribly awful glyphs here (# & { } come to mind)
14:21:42 <b_jonas> these days the difficulty is the opposite: lots of software don't yet have enough support for more than 8 bit per channel color depth, but more and more applications have real need for such high color depth per channel
14:22:03 <b_jonas> this isn't only for display, but also for graphics editing without displaying the high color depth
14:22:52 <FireFly> It's a bit unfortunate that we have kind of settled on 8 bits per channel as defacto standard
14:23:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: I have tried to draw some tiny fonts, but they never really worked so I don't have anything actually finished, and even those had a pixel for ascender
14:23:51 <b_jonas> at those small sizes you're best at trying to draw a font that has letter shapes rather different from traditional printed ones, readable only after practice
14:24:06 <b_jonas> some crazy people do that even for larger sizes
14:24:17 <b_jonas> that's a type of crazyness that isn't too far from me
14:24:48 <b_jonas> even fecupboard20 has characters that are deliberately uglier for easier proofreading, because it's a terminal font, not a typographic font
14:25:13 <FireFly> I really dislike… inconsistencies like having lowercase letters at uppercase size (so x-height = full height) or using lowercase n as uppercase, but I think when working with extreme constraints it can be okay
14:25:31 <b_jonas> but I have more restraints in going against the typographical traditions than to do something much more radical than that
14:25:38 <FireFly> b_jonas: oh, "sufficiently distinct glyphs" is certainly a fine thing to keep in mind when designing a font
14:25:54 <FireFly> that reminds me of some of the fonts designed specifically for signage
14:26:04 <b_jonas> FireFly: sure, but still there's a difference between one intended for proofreading and one intended for easy reading
14:26:16 <b_jonas> "signage"? what does that mean?
14:26:46 <b_jonas> is that when you try to make printed text that's hard to modify (for either forging or defacing) by drawing some extra lines in pen
14:26:53 <FireFly> I mean, for traffic signs and such
14:27:22 <FireFly> Or car plates, where having distinct glyphs for different characters/digits is important
14:27:34 <b_jonas> isn't that just normal readable fonts that try to be readable from faraway in bad vision conditions, rather than from close like books? you do sans serif with thick lines for that, but still make it nice looking
14:27:56 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, yes, but e.g. I recall some font where the Q had some quirks to make it more distinct from an O
14:28:09 <b_jonas> I don't know what to think about car reg plates, because different countries use SO VERY different style fonts that I can't really imagine why
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14:28:30 <b_jonas> and it's not just because of a difference in the set of characters used
14:28:38 <FireFly> like intentionally exaggerating the space surrounding tail of the Q to make it extra clear at a distance
14:28:54 <FireFly> (the tail being separated with paddingn from the circle)
14:29:00 <FireFly> err, I'm not describing this well :p
14:29:03 <b_jonas> because that can explain a few changes, like some countries have Ö and Ä in license plates
14:29:46 <b_jonas> FireFly: meh, they do that with the Q even in some print fonts. it makes sense because it's a capital letter in text that's not all-caps.
14:30:07 <b_jonas> reg plates are all uppercase, and road signs have some all-caps text
14:31:39 <b_jonas> Q is one of those letters that's rare enough in most text that fonts designers use it to try to make their font different from others. the other such character is &
14:32:25 <FireFly> I ended up with a somewhat Quake-like Q in that tile-based font :p with the tail being vertically centred and vertical
14:32:38 <FireFly> That was mainly for tile re-use purposes though
14:32:42 <b_jonas> If a text says "Q&A", that's a great help for identifying an unknown font.
14:32:57 <b_jonas> hmm... I should put "Q&A" in font specimens
14:33:00 <FireFly> Ampersands are tricky to draw
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14:33:13 <FireFly> I've never liked mine much
14:34:15 <b_jonas> straight vertical tail in Q is fine, you can just say it's a long tradition going back to the phoenician alphabet. font designers always respect tradition.
14:34:28 <b_jonas> but then, any style of Q is fine, and any style of & too, that's the whole point
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14:40:05 <FireFly> of course, ideally the style is somewhat consistent across glyphs
14:41:08 <FireFly> b_jonas: re. fecupboard18, I recall reading that in the US bitmap fonts specifically aren't copyrightable because glyphs are small and so it's hard to claim originality/several people can draw the same glyph
14:41:30 <FireFly> Which is a bit interesting (and I think I disagree with it, but partially agree… blah, it's a tricky area)
14:42:14 <FireFly> like at some point if you approach extremely tiny sizes, it's inevitable that the same glyphs get drawn the same way independently
14:42:34 <b_jonas> FireFly: it's possible that they aren't copyrightable, I'm not sure, but since it's not a particularly good font, nor one unique enough that someone would need that one in particular rather than any of the plethora of already available x16 video fonts (many of them clearly free of copyright), I didn't want to decide.
14:42:57 <b_jonas> If someone wants to take a look at it without distributing it, I can give it to them personally, but I don't think it's valuable enough.
14:43:19 <b_jonas> It's just a combination from multiple similar fonts according to whatever I liked at that time. I don't even like it much anymore.
14:43:44 <b_jonas> fecupboard20 is different, some people apart from me actually seem to like it
14:43:57 <b_jonas> and there's much fewer choice in decent x20 bitmap fonts
14:44:31 <b_jonas> I couldn't just combine it from existing fonts with small modifications, because I didn't know of any good enough fonts similar to it
14:44:38 <b_jonas> that's why I draw it from scratch
14:44:55 <b_jonas> sure, I did take some inspiration of all sorts of existing fonts, but you have to do that to make your own art
14:47:17 <FireFly> it's just an interesting thing, the copyrightability of bitmap fonts
14:47:52 <FireFly> I think individual glyphs are very likely to get reinvented a lot, but I think the value of a font (at least smallish bitmap fonts) is in consistency and style
14:48:15 <FireFly> and other such traits, things that cover the collection of glyphs as a whole more than an individual glyph
14:48:52 <b_jonas> wow. I am writing a perl one-liner, and I just got an error from perl that isn't a fatal error and whose meaning I can't guess from the code
14:48:56 <b_jonas> this hasn't happened for many years
14:49:05 <b_jonas> s/fatal error/internal error/
14:49:36 <b_jonas> time to check the documentation
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14:50:43 <b_jonas> it's a warning, not an error, despite not clearly saying "warning", and the doc doesn't give a clear explanation
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14:53:40 <b_jonas> Ideally I should write a doc patch for this, but I'm lazy
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15:11:52 <b_jonas> Q has so many fancy shapes that you could probably draw one that looks like a B or D or S or G at a glance and then deliberately try to confuse people with misreadable words like Quality, Quit, Quite, PLAQUE, Quest, Quilt.
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15:22:26 <FireFly> Ah, Qu ligatures can also look very nice, although bitmap fonts aren't really ligature-friendly :p
15:23:08 <FireFly> <b_jonas> FireFly: only for printers. that isn't possible on video terminals. ← I learned recently about this: https://twitter.com/chordbug/status/905772498796646400 !
15:25:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: was that one that used the type of CRT that traces graphics only once with no continuous rescans and the phosphor keeps remaining lit?
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15:25:51 <b_jonas> they even used CRTs like that as memory, back before DRAMS when people tried all sorts of crazy constructions to get large efficient RAMs
15:26:16 <FireFly> http://www.platopeople.com/emoticons.html has more examples too
15:27:03 <b_jonas> such as rotating magnetic disks, rotating magnetic disks with a separate head for each sector (this was actually common, I'm not making it up), mercury delay lines, core memory, that crt thing,
15:27:15 <b_jonas> and probably even more that I simply never heard about
15:29:54 <b_jonas> also SRAM and shift registers made of transistors, which were not that crazy, but were hard to use before transistors were invented
15:30:07 <b_jonas> tube or relay variant would have been too bulky
15:30:53 <b_jonas> then the DRAM is of course BOTH crazy and requires large integrated circuits
15:31:21 <b_jonas> but it turned out for large enough memory it could be made smaller than SRAM, so it won out
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19:56:14 <zzo38> I have fixed the bugs in MIXPC with LD1N and so on, and now also it keeps track of how many cards have been read/punched so far
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20:02:21 <zzo38> Now the truth-machine program is working.
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21:16:41 <\oren\> wait. coffee crisp and caramilk don't exist outside canada?
21:16:45 <\oren\> in what fucking universe is that acceptable
21:21:10 <\oren\> and cream soda isn't pink in america? what color is it then
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21:26:07 <zzo38> I don't know, but foods are better in Canada; I have been in other places and the food is not as good, so I will stay here in Canada.
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21:53:17 <pikhq> \oren\: Clear or golden brown, typically.
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22:03:26 <\oren\> pikhq: then how do u tell the difference between it and 7up or gingerale?
22:03:43 <zzo38> Presumably by the label I would think?
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22:24:09 <zzo38> How can the critical path method be worked when some activities might not require all of their dependencies but rather five of nine or one of two or whatever?
22:26:28 <zzo38> (Also assume that the minimal set of activities needed to start the goal activity will be done rather than necessarily all of them; if the project needs some other activities, they will be made dependencies of the goal in the normal way (where all dependencies are required rather than only some).)
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23:50:55 <\oren\> I'm glad I never watched star trek so I won't be sad when they ruin it
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