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01:26:37 <imode> golly's sourceforge page goes down a lot.
01:27:13 <Hooloovo0> I wish they updated the android version
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01:30:50 <imode> I'm wanting to figure out how it handles so many CAs of different rulesets.
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01:34:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Thenewcomposer * New user account
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01:41:42 <Hooloovo0> I don't recall very much about them, but they're just text files
01:41:57 <imode> yeah. I'm looking for documentation on them though.
01:42:05 <Hooloovo0> they're documented somewhere I think, maybe on the forums?
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01:42:27 <ais523> they should be written in SMETANA, really :-P
01:42:56 <ais523> what's the CA description language from catseye?
01:43:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53140&oldid=53117 * Thenewcomposer * (+234) /* Introductions */
01:45:45 <ais523> they're vaguely similar names, I guess
01:45:58 <imode> all caps, end in "A". :P
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01:48:29 <imode> having played BOTW recently I've been drawing things up related to emergent systems.
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01:49:22 <ais523> imode: BOTW is one of those examples where a game developer has decided "I don't care if this game becomes an emergent system, I'm just going to live with whatever it comes up with"
01:49:24 <imode> considering CAs are just a bunch of FSMs with their inputs and outputs linked four ways, I'm experimenting with what I can make.
01:49:39 <imode> ais523: pretty much.
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01:55:56 <imode> space in a CA is kind of like those little LCD games, where the play field is already mapped out and the control logic just lights parts of it up depending on the game state.
01:56:51 <imode> getting a little "particle" to move around must be interesting.
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02:23:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minim]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53141 * Thenewcomposer * (+5683) Created page with "= Minim: A Simple, Low Level, Interpreted Language Minim was == HELLO WORLD == ;;; START HELLO WORLD<br> [1 @ 13] = "Hello, World!\n". ; Put the string in memory  = 1...."
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14:41:55 <b_jonas> I just figured out a new twist on the esoteric language I'm trying to make. This will make my work harder, but it may be worth it.
14:42:24 <b_jonas> (My work as in writing documentation, reference implementation, and example programs.)
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15:16:08 <b_jonas> I can't tell yet because the language is still secret
15:19:28 <b_jonas> I totally disagree with the statement of today's xkcd
15:20:23 <b_jonas> The news reporters always want to have lab coat guys shown on screen. So they interview an astronomer for every solar eclipse, a mathematician every time someone wins the lottery (blackboard instead of lab coat that time),
15:21:04 <b_jonas> and a virologist and vulcanologist and robot engineer and all that sort of dangerous sounding profession for all the most boring fake news they invent.
15:21:26 <b_jonas> It's exactly when they ask apparently boring scientists when we should worry that there's something scary going on.
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15:36:42 <int-e> "breaking news" != "news" (how many unexpected solar eclipses have you experienced?)
15:36:57 <int-e> but the scale is totally arbitrary even with that considered.
15:37:25 <b_jonas> int-e: ok, but even given that
15:38:07 <int-e> (also anything sun related is very likely to be a total extinction event; those aren't really worth worrying about in my view)
15:38:53 <ais523> int-e: a particularly bad solar storm could do a lot of damage without causing a total extinction
15:38:59 <int-e> I mean, when they happen and can no longer be prevented ;)
15:40:06 <int-e> It's a bit stupid to attach it to a scientific field. A breaking news event involving a virologist could be a cure for HIV.
15:42:11 <int-e> . o O ( There are no absolute truths. )
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15:43:17 <b_jonas> int-e: or just some other daily story about which parents don't want their children to get the flu shot and asking the virologist for a thousandth time why the flu shot is important to stop spreading the epidemic to other people and stuff
15:44:01 <b_jonas> the strip says "local reporters interviewing scientists about a breaking news story"
15:46:28 <int-e> so I guess there's a puzzle there... what concrete event(s) did Randall have in mind when creating this ranking?
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16:13:32 <b_jonas> ais523: by the way, someone from FSF replied to my email about the licencing question, but didn't say anything useful.
16:14:45 <b_jonas> Basically they confirmed that, sure, the licenses are written with lawyers involved trying to make it a global license, so it should work anywhere.
16:14:58 <b_jonas> But not a specific legal opinion or anything that would directly answer me.
16:15:20 <ais523> given how many bugs there are in the GPLv2, I'm not convinced that their lawyers are all that good
16:15:30 <ais523> (the GPLv3 is much better, but it had a really long public review period)
16:16:06 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure how many of those are actual bugs, as opposed to just problems that didn't exist back when v2 was written and couldn't have been foreseen reasonably.
16:17:09 <b_jonas> But obviously the FSF already says that v3 is better than v2, so there's no point complaining to _them_ about bugs in v2 only.
16:18:24 <alercah> and it's really important to remember that the FSF is ideological first
16:22:07 <b_jonas> Also, the v2 is from 1991. The laws have genuinely changed since. The whole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPS_Agreement global international convention is from 1995, and it took years after that for countries to agree to it,
16:22:25 <b_jonas> which is why the Hungarian law I link to is dated to 1999 (but modified since) in first place.
16:23:32 <b_jonas> And, in particular, the section 43.4 that talks about geographical area was modified in 2011, let me see the version history of that one if I can.
16:28:10 <b_jonas> hmm, I think the free version history info on net.jogtar.hu doesn't go back to that
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17:11:46 <imode> hm. does describing any arbitrary cellular automata require a turing complete language?
17:11:59 <imode> I don't think it does. :P
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17:16:04 <ais523> imode: it depends on how you define cellular automata, possibly?
17:16:26 <ais523> although it also depends on how you define the description
17:16:50 <ais523> alpaca is not TC because it can't express an infinite loop (it's only usable for producing interpreters as output, not interpreting directly)
17:17:00 <ais523> but if alpaca is a cellular automaton description language, so is cat
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17:18:38 <rdococ> For whatever reason, I feel afraid of talking here.
17:18:47 <imode> say I hand you an arbitrary CA with some behavior. for any behavior I could possibly hand to you, I want you to re-create the rules followed by every cell in any way you'd like. does this require a turing complete language?
17:19:23 <imode> my gut says no, because why would it? the board's state is, well, the machine state. you could describe most behaviors with just an FSM.
17:19:45 <imode> but it'd be interesting to find a counterexample.
17:19:51 <ais523> imode: what are the inputs and the outputs to the program in the language that you're not sure whether it's TC?
17:20:06 <ais523> as far as I can tell, either the output is a program that emulates the CA, in which case trivially the language doesn't need to be TC
17:20:17 <ais523> or else the program itself emulates the CA, in which case it's TC because some CAs are TC
17:20:29 <ais523> you seem like you have something else in mind, but I'm not sure what
17:21:55 <imode> alright, alternative description. I write a CA simulator that supports black-box functions for rules. board state + coordinates for the currently active cell go into the black box, resulting cell state comes out.
17:22:37 <imode> is there a rule set that necessitates that whatever's in the black box use a turing complete language?
17:22:41 <ais523> your program now takes an infinite amount of input, which causes the normal definitions of TCness to break down
17:23:07 <ais523> as in, it's hard to say what being turing-complete even means in that context
17:23:09 <imode> ...nowhere did I mention infinite. try a 30x30 grid.
17:23:19 <imode> like, it's not hard to extrapolate what I'm talking about here.
17:23:24 <imode> it's not even hard to interpret.
17:23:28 <ais523> if you only have a finite portion of the grid as input, then you can trivially just use a lookup table
17:23:33 <ais523> as you only have finitely many possible inputs
17:23:43 <ais523> and the program itself is deterministic
17:24:04 <rdococ> the input grid could be the neighborhood of the cell
17:24:31 <Taneb> https://arin.ga/Q5kTWT my amazing new text editor
17:24:31 <imode> in which case, what rules would break the idea of a lookup table.
17:24:56 <ais523> either you'd need infinitely many states per cell (e.g. an analog CA)
17:25:16 <ais523> or else you'd need to look at an arbitrary amount of context (e.g. in RUBE, a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates)
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17:25:56 <imode> what that says to me is "anything past the neighborhood of the cell".
17:27:14 <imode> that's actually interesting. if a dozer can push arbitrarily many crates, what's stopping me from defining an FSM that takes that into account, and if the dozer pushes the first crate, you swap the pushed crate's state to "crate, pushed left".
17:27:59 <Taneb> That becomes difficult to interpret
17:28:01 <imode> and the crates next to that pushed crate take note of that and alter their own states. then near the end of the chain, the empty spot just turns into a crate...
17:28:05 <ais523> imode: it's not a finite state machine because a single crate has to keep looking left as long as there are crates, to see if it finds a dozer or empty space
17:28:13 <ais523> so you have infinitely many states to deal with
17:28:44 <ais523> you can make it into a CA with "speed of light" propagation of data rather than instantaneous
17:28:45 <imode> ais523: not from what I can see. it can still be defined by local rules.
17:28:51 <ais523> e.g. by having the dozer start a vibration
17:29:01 <imode> that's what I was intending to describe above.
17:29:05 <ais523> but then the crates will keep moving for some time even if you remove the dozer
17:29:34 <imode> say > is our dozer, # is our crate, and @ is "crate, moving right."
17:30:39 <imode> >### is our initial state. say the dozer pushes the first crate. the next state would be >@##. the state after would be >@@#. after that, >@@@. after that, >@@ #. after that, >@ ##. after that, > ###.
17:30:56 <imode> that doesn't take a turing complete language to describe.
17:31:09 <ais523> imode: yes but it's much slower than actual RUBE
17:31:16 <ais523> in RUBE, you can push an entire sequence of crates in a single tick
17:31:28 <ais523> which is necessary in several Rubicon levels as a method of fast long-distance communication
17:31:52 <imode> I'm not interested in speed, I'm interested in requirements.
17:32:26 <ais523> but the speed affects the semantics of a CA
17:32:31 <ais523> because multiple things go on at once
17:32:33 <imode> that's true. propagation.
17:33:13 <imode> interesting, though. so you do need a TC language to account for "faster-than-light" travel.
17:33:22 <imode> wonder if there's any way around that.
17:33:33 <ais523> doesn't need to be TC specifically, just an FSM is not good enough
17:33:45 <ais523> for example, regular expressions are good enough for this and yet sub-TC
17:34:06 <imode> yeah. pretty much anything that has the capability to expand the neighborhood of a given cell can do that.
17:36:20 <imode> ..wait, regexes are FSMs.
17:37:05 <imode> so, they are good enough for this by your word. :P
17:37:52 <ais523> imode: different level of FSMs
17:38:03 <ais523> a regex processes input as it reads it
17:38:17 <ais523> whereas the FSMs we were talking about earlier just have a single input and aren't applied iteratively to it
17:39:09 <imode> not sure what you're talking about because both march along iteratively along their respective inputs.
17:39:17 <imode> be it the board or the string they're fed.
17:39:19 <ais523> imode: take Life as an example
17:39:46 <ais523> the algorithm for calculating one cell there is based on having one output for each of the 512 possible inputs (each of which is the state of the cell and adjacent cells)
17:40:18 <ais523> it's not typically based on reading the cells one at a time and having an internal state that updates with each cell read; that'd be substantially more complex as you'd need to count the cells to know which one was the central one
17:41:00 <imode> you could describe life as an FSM, because the transition between "alive" and "dead" depends on the sum of its neighbors, which can be fed as input to the FSM.
17:41:50 <shachaf> Is there something like a cellular automaton where instead of discrete cells you have a continuous function?
17:42:00 <imode> it's also not hard to do naive iteration over the whole board using that. just keep applying the same function to each cell over and over, running from row to row.
17:42:10 <imode> shachaf: smoothlife.
17:42:36 <shachaf> Ah, maybe I've seen this before.
17:43:40 <imode> ais523: in that way, the whole board can be seen as an array of finite state machines, hooked up to a 'sum' unit that adds all of a cell's neighbors together and feeds it to the FSM underneath it.
17:43:51 <ais523> shachaf: Wolfram generated a few of those, but I'm not sure if any were actually studied from a programming point of view
17:44:18 <ais523> imode: in that sense, a regex isn't an FSM, then
17:44:35 <ais523> as it needs to take input in an entirely different way to be implementable with an FSM
17:44:54 <ais523> you can think of a regex as a robot that moves around the grid, reading cells, but has a finite amount of internal state
17:45:16 <ais523> if it can only move in one direction in a straight line, you have a regex amount of power
17:45:22 <imode> I'm aware. but if you leave it in place, marching along the string just means "marching in time."
17:45:39 <ais523> if it can backtrack, it's more powerful than that (potentially even TC if you have two dimensions)
17:45:39 <imode> meaning you're continuously reading the neighborhood around you as it evolves.
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17:50:53 <imode> I guess if you don't need FTL communication a non-TC rule language would suffice.
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20:26:16 <imode> I wonder how hard it'd be to get a "reasonable" approximation of something like gravity or magnetism in a CA.
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20:54:47 <Phantom_Hoover> imode, hard b/c there's no galilean invariance in a ca
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21:11:00 <imode> Phantom_Hoover: it's pretty easy to make something fall in a given direction, but I imagine you'd run into limits regarding the neighborhoods of each cell. instead of orbits you'd get everything just pushing towards the gravity source.
21:11:36 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember voraciously reading everything i could find on this, probably nearly a decade ago now
21:11:47 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think anyone had a decent model of gravity in a CA
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21:13:08 <imode> yeah. I don't know what other "games" do, but something like The Powder Toy treats the world state as a set of particles rather than a grid with cells.
21:16:14 <imode> I know you can do a sort of gradient, where if you place a "black hole" state in one cell, it'll spawn a bunch of force cells around it that point towards it with a certain strength, but at that point you might as well go with particles.
21:31:43 <Phantom_Hoover> modelling motion in a ca is hard in general because motion is all about 'hidden' state
21:35:06 <imode> you can try to model it via afterimages and a sort of type+force state model.
21:35:36 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but you discard so much parsimony in doing that that i've never really seen the point
21:35:49 <imode> yeah. you might as well take the high road and just do sparse particles.
21:45:01 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas
21:49:03 <HackEgo> pbflist is update notification for the Perry Bible Fellowship webcomic. http://pbfcomics.com/
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22:08:40 <wob_jonas> I found another of these cases when searching for "all" in a search web interface doesn't work, you have to choose a specific category. Aleph library catalog of MTA Kvt, entered an ISSN number to the single-field search form, leave default "any field" gives no hits, but if I choose "ISSN" instead, it does work.
22:09:26 <wob_jonas> What the fuck is wrong with you? If you don't understand what "any field" is, then don't make the fucking selection box say that! Say "some random fields" or "author or title" or just exclude it entirely.
22:10:08 <wob_jonas> URL of catalog is http://opac.mtak.hu
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23:53:58 <boily> I was on vacation.
23:54:02 <boily> were you postcarded?
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