←2017-10-07 2017-10-08 2017-10-09→ ↑2017 ↑all
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00:16:03 <zzo38> Why do they say pi is wrong? I will agree tau is a much better idea, but that doesn't make pi wrong. (I also prefer to call tau the "period of trigonometric functions" instead of the "circle constant", but that is a different question anyways.)
00:26:05 <Guest77438> Because the people saying this are wankers
00:26:14 <Guest77438> says this impartial observer
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01:15:51 <LKoen> "trigonometric function" is such a ridiculously complex concept when compared to "circle"
01:16:45 <LKoen> also, tan is a periodic trigonometric function, but it's period is pi
01:16:57 <LKoen> s/it's/its
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02:17:48 <quintopia> TIL that ^V puts Kate in VI mode so it uses all VI keybindings.
02:17:50 <quintopia> by accident
02:19:29 <quintopia> zzo38: because "pi is wrong" is a much better attention-grabber than "mathematical pedagogy surrounding circles and trigonometry becomes quite a bit simpler and more effective when we focus attention on the radian measure of a full circle"
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02:21:01 <Warrigal_> YIL that loops in 3D rotation space have parity.
02:21:19 <Warrigal_> Suppose I take an object and turn it around 360 degrees. I just put the object through an odd rotation.
02:21:33 <Warrigal_> Suppose I turn it around 360 degrees, and then, once again, I turn it around 360 degrees, in any direction.
02:21:38 <Warrigal_> That's an even rotation.
02:22:20 <Warrigal_> Any even rotation can be continuously deformed into the identity rotation--the one where you just leave the object alone and don't turn it at all.
02:22:23 <Warrigal_> Odd rotations cannot.
02:29:23 <quintopia> what
02:29:46 <quintopia> a 360 degree rotation around any axis *is* the identity rotation
02:30:30 <Warrigal_> Yeah, I'm kind of using the word "rotation" wrong.
02:30:38 <Warrigal_> What I really mean is "path in rotation space".
02:30:54 <quintopia> ah
02:31:01 <Warrigal_> Suppose I turn an object 360 degrees, then turn it 360 degrees again. That's an even path-in-rotation-space.
02:31:21 <Warrigal_> Any even path-in-rotation-space can be continuously deformed into the identity path-in-rotation-space.
02:31:36 <Warrigal_> Anyway, I just got hit by a wave of sleepiness.
02:31:53 <Warrigal_> So I'm gonna go home, vacuum some fleas, and go to bed.
02:32:01 <Warrigal_> Night, all.
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03:30:03 <zzo38> Bland Chess (which is my brother's idea) is not quite the true subset of FIDE; some moves are legal which might not be legal in FIDE because they would put yourself into check if the game was FIDE.
03:31:19 <zzo38> (Bland Chess is a chess variant where all diagonal moves are prohibited, although knight moves are still possible.)
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04:54:58 <xkapastel> is bfjoust solved? is there much room for improvement in bots?
05:26:01 <zzo38> I don't know
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06:58:51 <quintopia> xkapastel: it's kind of rock-paper-scissory, so it is always possible to beat the hill
06:59:13 <quintopia> just figure out something that most of the current jousters are doing wrong and exploit it
07:00:02 <quintopia> i think that it is, in fact, currently possible to beat everything on the hill on every tape length--it's been done before as I recall.
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07:10:40 <zzo38> Now I made the program to draw a polygon onto an existing picture (the polygon does not have to be entirely within the boundary of the picture).
07:43:13 <zzo38> Please tell me if this document is good: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/farbfeld.ui/wiki?name=ff-dntsc
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15:36:28 <boily> `5 w
15:36:47 <HackEgo> 1/2:alphabet//Alphabet is a system of writing invented by Google. \ 🐚//(1+sqrt(5))/2 hth \ gblh//Gblh but less helpful. \ hth//hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. \ dark water//Dark water is an instadeath terrain type in Game Boy games that would represent lava if you had lots of imaginati
15:36:48 <boily> `n
15:36:49 <HackEgo> 2/2:on.
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20:41:44 <orby> Greetings
20:42:50 <orby> Has anyone put any serious thought into whether or not harmful brainfuck is turing complete?
20:43:07 <orby> It's actually quite interesting imo
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20:59:51 <Warrigal_> Hmmm. I look at it and I think, yeah, it probably is.
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21:00:24 <Warrigal_> No obvious obstacles to Turing-completeness.
21:00:41 <moony> afternoon
21:01:09 <orby> I think it certainly might be, but it's not immediately clear how to do things like loop n times
21:01:51 <orby> Hey moony
21:01:54 <Warrigal_> Actually, it's not obvious that "initial setup" is possible.
21:02:28 <moony> 'harmful brainfuck'? Link me. Sounds intresting.
21:02:44 <Warrigal_> Like, suppose I want to initialize the first 128 cells to 128 in a reasonably concise way.
21:02:49 <moony> or rather, i'll link myself.
21:02:50 <Warrigal_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Harmful_Brainfuck
21:02:57 <moony> or not
21:02:59 <Warrigal_> Or just...
21:03:14 <Warrigal_> I mean, it's not immediately obvious that it's even possible to jump back to the beginning of the program.
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21:03:34 <Warrigal_> And to subsequently continue in a reasonable manner.
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21:04:42 <orby> Even something as simple as a conditional jump seems tricky
21:05:50 <zzo38> Now I made program converting Netpbm formats into farbfeld (I already had the program converting the other way; now I have both way)
21:05:50 <orby> Say we want to jump if the current cell is zero and otherwise not
21:05:59 <moony> You could do a conditional jump via, well, trampolines. Just think of it how a GPU programmer might think of it, it looks like it'll become clearer that way. (GPU programming has no conditionals, or at least it didnt for a long time)
21:06:23 <moony> orby, that case seems impossible, tho. ):
21:06:40 <Warrigal_> Well, you don't need that kind of conditional jump, though.
21:06:56 <Warrigal_> You could, say, represent false as 64 and true as 128.
21:06:57 <orby> Yeah, I suppose not
21:07:16 <Warrigal_> As long as you can implement logic gates and whatnot operating on that, you're pretty golden.
21:07:27 <moony> ^
21:07:38 <orby> Hmm, yeah you've got the right idea
21:07:54 <Warrigal_> But it would be nice to be able to simulate constant jumps.
21:07:55 <moony> a simple NOT gate can perform boolean logic. (My proof? Minecraft's redstone torches.)
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21:08:12 <moony> a simple not gate looks possible here
21:08:16 <moony> and it probably is.
21:08:43 <moony> if you can prove a boolean notgate exists, its turing complete.
21:08:50 <moony> and thats only one way to do it.
21:08:52 <Warrigal_> You can simulate constant jumps by just keeping particular constant values nearby the tape pointer... as long as you can set up those constant values in the first place.
21:09:15 <Warrigal_> Surely the redstone torches aren't *just* a NOT gate. Like, they can have multiple inputs, right?
21:09:15 <moony> Warrigal_, +++.
21:09:43 <moony> Warrigal_, not directly. Altho, good point. Wasnt thinking about that part :P OR and NOT.
21:09:44 <Warrigal_> If all you have is NOT gates and composition, then there are only two functions you can make.
21:10:00 <orby> or and not is functionally complete though
21:10:09 <Warrigal_> Yup.
21:10:16 <orby> but you need more than functional completeness to be turing complete of course
21:10:16 * moony wracks brain
21:11:42 <moony> i'll just step out for now. Too many videogames. *wonders how minecraft computers are turing complete with only NOT and OR)
21:12:12 <orby> I too have heard that minecraft computers are turing complete, but I don't know much about how they work
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21:13:05 <orby> I think harmful brainfuck is especially interesting because it seems like there is ample room for minimization
21:13:13 <orby> which is a bit of a fetish of mine
21:13:24 <moony> uhh. ok.
21:13:43 * moony almost imagined how that could be fetishified.
21:13:47 <orby> haha
21:13:51 <orby> figure of speech
21:14:33 <orby> Off the bat we can drop - because the cells wrap around
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21:14:55 <orby> and we can combine >+
21:15:07 <orby> which brings it down to 3 commands pretty easily
21:15:26 <orby> I'm wondering if it's possible to combine < and *
21:16:22 <moony> oh no. a minimizer, hide before he minimizes you!
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21:16:50 <orby> mwahahaha
21:17:25 <moony> hey, wait i have bait for him. orby, here, go minimize Javascript.
21:17:53 <orby> eval
21:17:54 <orby> done
21:18:10 <orby> heh
21:18:23 <moony> orby, now try and outdo JSFuck.
21:18:35 <orby> haven't seen that, in the wiki?
21:18:44 <moony> yes.
21:19:16 <moony> https://esolangs.org/wiki/JSFuck
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21:20:25 <orby> that's pretty awesome
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21:48:06 <moony> new favorite esolang: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Ecstatic
21:48:10 <Soni> I like whitespace
21:48:12 <moony> > ...Minor setback
21:48:15 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: error: parse error on input ‘...’
21:48:25 <moony> oh, sorry lambdabot
21:48:43 <Soni> valid lua string literals can contain valid whitespace
21:49:11 <Soni> (without it becoming part of the string)
21:49:38 <Soni> http://www.lua.org/manual/5.2/manual.html
21:49:42 <Soni> look for "\z"
21:49:46 <Soni> same in the lua 5.3 manual
21:50:04 <Soni> sadly it doesn't work in lua 5.1
21:50:29 <Soni> (now if only whitespace could be used in making malware...)
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22:07:52 <Warrigal_> Say, that reminds me of a quirk of Lua I found out about recently.
22:08:09 <Warrigal_> Lua is one of those rare languages where statements don't need explicit terminators *and* whitespace doesn't matter.
22:09:22 <Warrigal_> So...
22:09:25 <Warrigal_> This is valid Lua code:
22:09:27 <Warrigal_> x = true (print)(x)
22:09:30 <Warrigal_> It prints "true".
22:09:34 <Warrigal_> But...
22:09:54 <Warrigal_> Well.
22:09:58 <Warrigal_> This is also valid Lua code:
22:10:02 <Warrigal_> x = true y = true (print)(y)
22:10:05 <Warrigal_> Also prints "true".
22:10:18 <Warrigal_> This, on the other hand, is a runtime error:
22:10:23 <Warrigal_> x = true y = x (print)(y)
22:11:25 <Warrigal_> "x = true y = true (print)(y)" is parsed as "x = true; y = true; (print)(y)", whereas "x = true y = x (print)(y)" is parsed as "x = true; y = x(print)(y)".
22:11:48 <Warrigal_> So you get the error "stdin:1: attempt to call global 'x' (a boolean value)".
22:12:19 <Warrigal_> This gives the same runtime error: x = true x()
22:12:27 <Warrigal_> But this is a syntax error: x = true true()
22:13:34 <Warrigal_> The reason for all of this is that it's syntactically illegal to use a boolean literal as the function in a function call.
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22:18:52 <int-e> useful.
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22:24:21 <Soni> Warrigal_: x = print (function() end)() does not do what you think it does
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22:32:28 <zzo38> The OASYS compiler doesn't even have explicit terminators (nor does it need parentheses or commas around function arguments, and actually doesn't even accept commas), so if you name a property the same as a global variable or method or whatever, you can have something going wrong.
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22:35:26 <Soni> power went out
22:39:12 <Warrigal_> Soni: I think it does do what I think it does. :D
22:39:29 <Soni> Warrigal_: and what's that?
22:39:30 <Warrigal_> I think it calls print with function() end, then calls the result with no arguments, then assigns that result into x.
22:39:41 <Soni> yeah
22:39:47 <Warrigal_> Except I think that the second call will produce an error and so the third thing won't happen.
22:39:49 <Soni> it's really annoying when you love anonymous recursive functions
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←2017-10-07 2017-10-08 2017-10-09→ ↑2017 ↑all