< 1508371348 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1508371437 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1508371693 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1508372615 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508373045 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508373084 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508373145 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1508373321 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION slightly mapoles hppavilion[1]
< 1508373324 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508373409 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION invokes Newton's Third Law and slightly mapoles boily with equal magnitude in the opposite direction
< 1508374497 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1508374787 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508375356 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Quit: HRII'FHALMA MNAHN'K'YARNAK NGAH NILGH'RI'BTHNKNYTH < 1508375548 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1508375701 0 :MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1508375867 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Truth-machine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53221&oldid=53217 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+1051) 10finished /* Tables */ < 1508375942 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508375976 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Language list14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53222&oldid=53213 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+39) 10/* T */ added Tables to language list < 1508376258 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07User:HereToAnnoy14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53223&oldid=53209 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (-15) 10i'm dumb < 1508376618 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07List of quines14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53224&oldid=52797 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+443) 10/* Cheating Quines */ - added Tables example < 1508376678 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508376691 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : Some people would go so far as to call it "a most ingenious paradox". <-- is this a quote from a relevant poem < 1508376700 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: from a relevant play < 1508376705 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1508376854 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Talk:Revolution 914]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53225 5* 03HereToAnnoy 5* (+199) 10Created page with "==STOP MAKING BRAINFUCK CLONES== Please stop making [[brainfuck]] clones.
Especially bad ones.
--~~~~" < 1508377161 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508377200 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508377650 0 :MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Quit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIIqYqtR1lY -- Suicide is Painless - Johnny Mandel < 1508377700 0 :MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1508378233 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508378425 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508378889 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : But chances are I'll manage to forget about how I encrypted the new one I'm making, as well. <-- this might be a rare case where writing it down is the best option hth < 1508378938 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn. walls aren't passable in the labyrinth. < 1508379161 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :counter machines are beautiful. < 1508379289 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: i remembered how to do the proof. how much math do you know? i can do it short with compactness, or more long-winded without < 1508379322 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: your choice! long-winded would be nice as I could study it and prompt you with questions in bulk rather than bug you randomly. :P < 1508379358 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um the "compactness" is a technical math term, just so you know. < 1508379363 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm digging into equivalent models and I see that it's rooted in counter machines, inspired by Minsky, Melzak and Lambek. < 1508379437 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: ENFORCE CHICKEN < 1508379442 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shoot me the proof. < 1508379514 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok first the common part. let's say you have a non-deterministic fractran program which simulates an ordinary one (so the result, and whether it halts, is unique). < 1508379548 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and you could do that with extensive use of flag registers. < 1508379561 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you cannot. that's what we're proving. < 1508379568 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. continue. < 1508379644 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now assume one instance of the computation runs through a sequence of numbers n_1, n_2, ... etc. < 1508379692 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :let p_1, p_2, ..., p_k be the primes used. split up each number n_i into a tuple of exponents, one coordinate for each prime. < 1508379721 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the computation is now a sequence of elements of N^k < 1508379744 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, I follow. < 1508379804 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is, and this is what can be proved two ways: for any such sequence there must exist two indices i and j>i such that every coordinate of t_i is smaller than the corresponding coordinate of t_j. < 1508379848 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that enforces an ordering, right? < 1508379849 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, _unless_ the sequence is finite. so from now on we're assuming the computation _doesn't_ halt. < 1508379862 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it's a partial ordering on tuples. < 1508379874 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, I follow. < 1508380008 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for now, assume this about number tuples. now because of how nondeterministic fractran works, once we've found i and j, we can modify what happens from point j to get a new computation that simply increases linearly every j-i steps. < 1508380038 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw this partial order of tuples corresponds to the original number n_i dividing n_j) < 1508380107 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :but this means that we know how to solve the halting problem for nondeterministic fractran. thus it cannot be turing complete. < 1508380137 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :now, by nondeterministic fractran, you mean randomized rule application, right. < 1508380153 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not just randomized, freely chosen. < 1508380189 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured. so, riddle me this. that made sense (though I'm still chewwing on it), but how can P systems claim to be turing complete then? < 1508380220 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because things on different sides of membranes cannot react with each other, i presume. < 1508380241 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, but that's just a really fancy way of saying "I'm in this state so these rules apply, while the others don't." < 1508380248 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :which you can achieve by flag registers. < 1508380282 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but you have a state for _each_ object, and there's no bound on the number of them, so you'd need infinitely many flags < 1508380313 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait < 1508380321 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no what i'm saying isn't making sense. < 1508380332 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me go look up those P-systems. < 1508380339 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system < 1508380348 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :membrane dissolution directly corresponds to a flag change. < 1508380402 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that if I have some register with the current state as an integer, I can always prepend a check for that register on each instruction to say "this will only fire if the current state is 3". < 1508380451 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a state transition is non-symmetrical, meaning we alter said register after we match on a given rule that says "go to the next state." < 1508380462 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of just filling it back in with the previous value. < 1508380515 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508380535 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning a rule looks like state(1),... -> state(1),... when it's in one state, and on a transition, it looks like state(1),... -> state(2),... < 1508380587 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me that's what the membrane dissolution looks like. I can always know which state I'm in, and because of that I can enforce some sort of order on my computation without it having to be explicitly enforced by the rules of the P-system in question. < 1508380590 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :sans rule priority. < 1508380634 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's really what's getting me. the fact that P-systems are very much like FRACTRAN but don't require any kind of explicit ordering in their rule set. < 1508381064 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1508381215 0 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1508381465 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm oh flags _might_ work in nondeterministic fractran, you just need two opposite ones. something is weird here. < 1508381506 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only odd thing is that you can't test for something like xor. < 1508381524 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the problem isn't flags, it's that you cannot test a number for being zero. < 1508381539 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm. but you can get around that by simply using 1 and 2. :P < 1508381548 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :really simple, that. < 1508381549 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for your _real_ data < 1508381560 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :um no < 1508381571 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you cannot test for <=1 either < 1508381627 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no, I mean... if I was using flags, instead of testing whether a flag was unset, I'd test if it was symbolically unset (i.e set to '1') or test if it was (i.e set to '2'). < 1508381648 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I can do. < 1508381660 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, so membrane dissolution may work. what doesn't work is the "maximally parallel" rule. < 1508381682 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if _that_ is essential for getting TC-ness without priorities. < 1508381733 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :these p-systems have too many variants, it seems, so the statement you don't need priorities is very vague on what you _do_ need instead. < 1508381747 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a lot of membranes. < 1508381750 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I were to guess. < 1508381779 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to the abstract linked to, only 1 or 2 dependent on variants. < 1508381828 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :very curious. < 1508381859 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think of the things mentioned in the wikipedia article other than priorities, "maximally parallel" is what cannot be done in ND fractran. < 1508381910 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :how so? < 1508381914 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, or dividing membranes, but that seemed to be optional. < 1508381951 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not too hard of a mental hurdle to delay the state change before you've gone through every possible rule. < 1508381976 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that actually precludes every cellular automata, including 110. < 1508382054 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :though from experience most fractran programs would break. < 1508382205 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: the problem is that to know when to stop delaying, you need to know when you have no more rules matching. < 1508382232 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you cannot do that because it's testing for absence of something < 1508382244 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmm, I wouldn't say it is though. < 1508382269 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's less testing for the absence of something and more stopping if you have no more work to do. < 1508382284 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"no more work to do" _is_ testing for absence. < 1508382291 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :converting a "test for negative" into a "continue if positive" is trivial. < 1508382305 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it is same as "we're out of input elements" < 1508382318 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: no it's not. < 1508382338 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is there is nothing _forcing_ you to continue. < 1508382363 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see your point. fractran's stopping point is "I can't find a rule to apply". < 1508382392 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the difference here? "hand the unchanged state to all the rules, see what pops out, add together everything that pops out." < 1508382397 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but this is not a final program stopping point. it's a "go to next phase" stopping point. < 1508382447 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't have the means to disallow it randomly going to the next phase even if it _isn't_ finished. < 1508382450 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :say I have two states with 3 rules in them. one rule in the first state says to go to the second state (by triggering a flag register). < 1508382485 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I apply all 3 rules maximally, I'll have a union of whatever each rule's output is. < 1508382506 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I apply all 6 rules maximally, I'll ahve a union of whatever each rule's output is. < 1508382551 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, let me sketch this out and paste it. text diagrams on IRC suck. < 1508382727 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ptpb.pw/u00g so we have two states, each of which has 3 rules. the first state has a transition to the second. regardless of what the specifics of any of these rules are, the current state register always regulates which set of rules is active. all the rules operate on the current state at once and get clumped together after they're done. < 1508383004 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're definitely answering the wrong question but now i need to think of a clearer example... < 1508383023 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :all ears. < 1508383300 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok this isn't quite satisfactory but how would you emulate the p-system rule "a -> aa" maximally parallely in ND fractran < 1508383328 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :just "a -> aa"? < 1508383339 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1508383342 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :one sec. < 1508383371 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that it needs to exactly double the number of a's between some well-defined steps. < 1508383383 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, and it just involves one register. it's doubling a number. < 1508383409 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it needs to do that again, indefinitely. < 1508383414 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so.. I mean. < 1508383421 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :r1(1) -> r1(2). < 1508383438 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/4? < 1508383447 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the equivalent fractran program. < 1508383470 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would double the a's one at a time, not simultaneously. < 1508383483 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :or wait < 1508383493 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :steps are still there. < 1508383501 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just that you don't find one rule then go back to the start. < 1508383514 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you find all the rules that match, grab their left hand sides, and combine the whole set of states. < 1508383551 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not how nondeterministic fractran works. you need to enforce it without having it a priori. < 1508383600 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ND fractran does on rule at a time, P-systems as many as possible, and that may be the difference for TC-ness. < 1508383605 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*one < 1508383619 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1508383639 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure what your point was with the a -> aa rule. < 1508383653 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well it's an example in the wiki page < 1508383662 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :because regardless of whether it's ND fractran or not, I'd still select a rule and apply it. < 1508383700 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ptpb.pw/ua1Z < 1508383726 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's a.. I guess approximation of the rule set they presented. < 1508383756 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't understand your notation < 1508383774 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :'state', 'a', 'c', 'd', 'e', etc. are just registers. < 1508383844 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :state(1),a(1) -> state(1),a(1),b(1) says "If the state register is >= 1 AND the 'a' register is => 1, subtract 1 from both and add 1 to the state register, the 'a' register, and the 'b' register." < 1508383858 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :because fractran simulates a register machine underneath. < 1508383995 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm, that could actually be modified into two rules for the first state. < 1508384019 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotta run for a few, but I'd like to continue this when I get back if possible oerjan! < 1508384043 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that rule seems to be an infinite loop that can always trigger once it already has < 1508384090 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh i see. < 1508384367 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508385645 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508385905 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1508387753 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508387784 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1508387793 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :back. < 1508387828 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i now have more useless knowledge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4 < 1508387852 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :tell me your useless knowledge. < 1508387957 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was in that link hth < 1508387992 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1508388001 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it did help. :P < 1508388087 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that squaring P-system also uses maximal parallelism, i see. i'm pretty sure you'll have trouble converting it into a working ND fractran program. < 1508388157 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure NDF program even can multiply numbers < 1508388164 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :*programs < 1508388184 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think instead of talking about fractran, we should talk about counter machines in general. < 1508388205 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's essentially all fractran is. < 1508388226 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah but ND fractran was what we started discussing, and that's weaker. < 1508388249 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what exactly is ND fractran as you define it? free choice of rule application? < 1508388258 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1508388308 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead of "apply all the rules at once, then move on" it's "select a rule from the list at your own will. < 1508388315 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"then move on." < 1508388377 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see why that could be difficult but I'm not convinced that it's not possible for a true conversion. < 1508388403 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly because I could totally skip rules and go for the state transition first. < 1508388444 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :for counter machines, it corresponds, i think, to having any test have a chance of jumping as if a register is zero even if it isn't. < 1508388470 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead of free choice you have some kind of chance mechanism. < 1508388496 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's pretty close. < 1508388498 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i didn't really mean that. < 1508388517 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :although i suspect you cannot do everything with randomness either. < 1508388543 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was some literature on nondeterministic prolog programs, and if you wanna look at fractran as a really bizzaro prolog clone, that may be cool. :P < 1508388555 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1508388653 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://ptpb.pw/uEFS so the only real issue I have with this system, if I was going to port it to ND fractran, is the rule with the asterisk next to it. < 1508388669 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning if we're presented with any set of rules and one state transition, we can always choose the state transition as early as possible. < 1508388671 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :randomness might help, though, because you can then ignore a 0 probability of not halting. < 1508388760 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: i think that rule is fine actually. the two previous ones are worse because how do you enforce that the first one doesn't fire alone? < 1508388795 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. you can go from the first to the third or repeatedly fire the first. < 1508388799 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and totally ignore the second. < 1508388812 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could be dumb about it and break up every rule into its own state. < 1508388830 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :and form a mutual exclusion table.. thing. < 1508389207 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think you have to encode if-else combos if you're going to have "every rule is its own state". < 1508389230 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :meaning state(1),... -> state(2),...; state(2),... -> state(3),...; etc < 1508389241 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :trying to enforce some linear order. < 1508389294 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if you're in state N and your registers match these, go to state 1. else, go to state N+1." < 1508389381 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine there's some kind of way to encode that. if you could encode that you could write any set of fractran rules as ND fractran rules. < 1508389495 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: do you know for sure that NDF is weaker than DF? < 1508389718 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :alercah: it is decidable whether it has to halt < 1508389726 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :see above < 1508389769 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it goes on long enough, you eventually _will_ reach a number divisible by a previous one. < 1508389784 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then you know it doesn't need to halt. < 1508389852 0 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1508389974 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 3 hours ago < 1508390150 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :my question was whether NDF can evaluate all total recursive functions < 1508390171 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think there's also some way to upper bound the time until this happens, given the program and original input, and i suspect that the bound is primitive recursive. < 1508390184 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's a no? < 1508390188 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1508390229 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :otoh i'm not entirely sure NDF can even multiply two numbers given in 2^m 3^n format. < 1508390239 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it might be even less. < 1508390289 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to build a "skeleton" in an attempt to port DF programs to NDF. < 1508390301 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what prevents it? < 1508390324 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought. :P < 1508390331 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant for oerjan < 1508390336 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is multiplication hard < 1508390349 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: i'm not _sure_ it's impossible, it's just that i don't see immediately how to do it either. < 1508390376 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :like everything else, it's about not being able to test for a "register" being smaller than a constant. < 1508390427 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :an approach might be to temporarily extend NDF to that kind of capability. < 1508390430 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you cannot really do it with nested for loops since you don't know how to break out of the inner one. < 1508390446 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: but then it's a completely different task. < 1508390490 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh hm... < 1508390494 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1508390507 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://cms.math.ca/10.4153/CMB-1961-031-9 Melzak's model is also completely equivalent to fractran, so this is interesting. < 1508390558 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not completely equivalent. wrong words. the concept is the same (take N from here, put M here.) < 1508390641 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-machine_model#1961:_Melzak_model:_a_single_ternary_instruction_with_addition_and_proper_subtraction far more brief here. < 1508390681 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference is that his model appears to deal with one register at a time, while conway's deals with multiple registers at a time. < 1508390693 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508390864 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :but iirc he touches on something similar to conway's rule format. < 1508391077 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-machine_model#1961:_Minsky.27s_model_of_a_partial_recursive_function_reduced_to_a_.22program.22_of_only_two_instructions < 1508391128 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, he encodes an else branch. < 1508391246 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, if every rule in NDF had an explicit action for else, then you could encode any sequence of DF commands. < 1508391267 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508391277 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :that useless machine was invented by minsky btw < 1508391288 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, really? < 1508391313 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. < 1508391320 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Minsky's mentor at Bell Labs, information theory pioneer Claude Shannon (who later also became an MIT professor), made his own versions of the machine. He kept one on his desk, where science fiction author Arthur C. Clarke saw it. Clarke later wrote, "There is something unspeakably sinister about a machine that does nothing—absolutely nothing—except switch itself off", and he was fascinated by the < 1508391326 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :concept." < 1508391342 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :suicidal by design. :P < 1508391421 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Minsky also invented a "gravity machine" that would ring a bell if the gravitational constant were to change, a theoretical possibility that is not expected to occur in the foreseeable future." < 1508391502 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :shame he's now an icicle. < 1508391528 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508391574 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if by some measure, you did manage to construct a kind of skeleton with an explicit else branch, you could port any DF program to NDF. but until you have that link, NDF is weaker. < 1508391883 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may be interesting to compare with prolog's style of nondeterminism. multiple matching rules but only one choice. < 1508392128 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508392417 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1508392454 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508393370 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508395176 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508395418 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508395663 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1508395681 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508395776 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508396081 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508397147 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508398114 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Special:Log/newusers14]]4 create10 02 5* 03TheFriendlyEnemy 5* 10New user account < 1508398360 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :[wiki] 14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53226&oldid=53178 5* 03TheFriendlyEnemy 5* (+196) 10 < 1508398671 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508398929 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1508399112 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508399251 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508399392 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508399406 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1508399418 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508399422 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508399523 0 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508399856 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508400037 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508400297 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508400338 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :spämmi < 1508401905 0 :hppavilion[1]!~dosgmowdo@58-0-174-206.gci.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1508402255 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:a42f:20bb:e774:1f8f JOIN :#esoteric < 1508402307 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:a42f:20bb:e774:1f8f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508402323 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:a42f:20bb:e774:1f8f JOIN :#esoteric < 1508403117 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1508404720 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508406039 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508408101 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:a42f:20bb:e774:1f8f QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508408528 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508409060 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508409158 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508409439 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508410738 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubng11-54f948-150.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1508410922 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubng11-54f948-150.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1508410988 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508411807 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1508411813 0 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1508412355 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508412640 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508412901 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508414828 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@193.190.253.145 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1508415349 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508415351 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Client Quit < 1508415558 0 :MrBusiness3!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1508415718 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1508415740 0 :MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1508415757 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: LAIR CHICKEN < 1508415771 0 :MrBusiness!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:c801:d7f:77e1:92be JOIN :#esoteric < 1508419187 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1508419396 0 :pledis!~nayoung@2400:6180:0:d0::383:e001 QUIT :Quit: leaving < 1508419894 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1508421628 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508422857 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcfapjo07eqrsv.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1508422865 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1508423206 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1508425246 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcfapjo07eqrsv.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508425481 0 :doesthiswork!~Adium@207.55.82.87 QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1508426155 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508426434 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508431308 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508431433 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508432667 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1508432679 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT : < 1508433444 0 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1508433464 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like today's SMBC. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/smell-this < 1508433518 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1508433918 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas JOIN :#esoteric < 1508433931 0 :Remavas!~Remavas@unaffiliated/remavas QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508434053 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcfapjo07eqrsv.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1508435005 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :if only all SMBC comics were funny like this < 1508435061 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1508435072 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :most are funnier than this < 1508435105 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are fine but they tend to repeat jokes a lot < 1508435114 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joke format, anyway < 1508435259 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know. Most of them seem to be based on people being jerks quite deliberately. < 1508435278 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :you try drawing 7+ comics a week for years without repeating yourself. im impressed how even with such a rigorous schedule, its still funnier than xkcd on average < 1508435290 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well here's the idea < 1508435297 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe don't draw one per day < 1508435307 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: I wouldn't try :P < 1508435351 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :th < 1508435379 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :the oatmeal is funnier on average but updates far less often < 1508435428 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :also all the long form side projects zach produces are creative and hilarious as well < 1508435477 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: they mostly just repeat jokes with xkcd. if you read both, you get many of the jokes twice. it's unclear which is first among the two, and hard to find otu. < 1508435499 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think any of them are first in most cases < 1508435505 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: but from what I've read about comics and comedy, being consistently funny is a full time job, though there are tricks that help (read diversely, talk to people, free association games, and obviously expect to discard 90% of your ideas.). < 1508435505 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are just general science type jokes < 1508435509 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: yep, it has a very rigorous schedule, and he even managed to publish a book (with good reviews) on schedule < 1508435519 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :the type that other people have done before and after < 1508435528 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Nearing Zero in the olden days < 1508435542 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah: what's "Nearing Zero"? < 1508435550 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think it's just science, but ok < 1508435552 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was an old science webcomic < 1508435569 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know an URL? < 1508435573 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also a lot of SMBC comics remind me a bit of "The Parking Lot is Full" < 1508435578 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :another old timey webcomic < 1508435585 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :again, do you know an url? < 1508435594 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nearing Zero isn't online anymore but here's an arhcive < 1508435596 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.neatorama.com/2008/05/26/the-best-of-nearing-zero-by-nick-kim/ < 1508435625 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1508435629 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :not actually a lot of them < 1508435673 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lab-initio.com/best.html < 1508435674 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :There they are < 1508435679 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a rather long list at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272481-Webcomic-List < 1508435687 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lab-initio.com/250dpi/nz015.jpg < 1508435688 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was another comparable list somewhere but I can't remember wher < 1508435690 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :classic science joke < 1508435727 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://j.aufbix.org/plif/archive/archive.htm < 1508435734 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :and here's The Parking Lot is Full < 1508435741 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://imadudeyo.tumblr.com/ < 1508435744 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1508435776 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( when we're done, lead poisoning will be the least of your worries ) < 1508435788 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :In the same kind of off-beat comics like that you had like < 1508435792 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Tom the dancing bug" < 1508435796 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc etc < 1508435813 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :No comics are really original, it is all just one long continuity < 1508435894 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, and every joke is new to a newborn < 1508435895 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :all art is derivative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY http://www.spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants.html < 1508436061 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.lab-initio.com/250dpi/nz192.jpg < 1508436074 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly a reference to the nobel prize for the discovery of the CMB! < 1508436162 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1508436956 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1508437669 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508437705 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508437933 0 :`^_^v!~nycs@gw.hq.meetup.com QUIT :Quit: This computer has gone to sleep < 1508437984 0 :augur!~augur@2601:645:c100:1132:5c46:8e1f:dce0:a987 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508438611 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508438757 0 :iovoid!~iovoid@unaffiliated/iovoid QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508438800 0 :iovoid!~iovoid@185.140.54.17 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508438800 0 :iovoid!~iovoid@185.140.54.17 QUIT :Changing host < 1508438800 0 :iovoid!~iovoid@unaffiliated/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1508439713 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1508439887 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1508442427 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:8666:4cea:2950:f523:2eff:aa84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508443803 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1508444559 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:8666:4cea:2950:f523:2eff:aa84 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508444593 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:8666:4cea:2950:f523:2eff:aa84 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508444848 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:8666:4cea:2950:f523:2eff:aa84 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508445261 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508446423 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508446814 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508447013 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1508447063 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508447392 0 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGABRT, dying... < 1508447598 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508448234 0 :augur_!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508448328 0 :augur!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1508448725 0 :augur_!~augur@noisebridge130.static.monkeybrains.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1508449541 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1508449567 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98e0:6f5:543b:d335:9532:3d92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1508450327 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98e0:6f5:79a7:bdd6:1b8d:4834 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508450665 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1508451401 0 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :Quit: grumble < 1508451429 0 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric < 1508452394 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:1061:fc6d:8307:32a2 JOIN :#esoteric < 1508452394 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:1061:fc6d:8307:32a2 QUIT :Changing host < 1508452394 0 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1508453642 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcfapjo07eqrsv.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 258 seconds < 1508453910 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1508454282 0 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1508456711 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still not convinced NDF isn't turing complete. < 1508456883 0 :Slereah!~Slereah@ALille-651-1-160-135.w90-1.abo.wanadoo.fr PRIVMSG #esoteric :NDF? < 1508456910 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nondeterministic fractran. thue is nondeterministic and manages to be turing complete and the only difference is the idea that it supports ordered strings. < 1508456952 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you could show a thue program ported to NDF then you'd prove NDF is turing complete through thue. < 1508456978 0 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :the key is representing ordered strings.