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01:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53221&oldid=53217 * HereToAnnoy * (+1051) finished /* Tables */
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01:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53223&oldid=53209 * HereToAnnoy * (-15) i'm dumb
01:30:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53224&oldid=52797 * HereToAnnoy * (+443) /* Cheating Quines */ - added Tables example
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01:31:31 <oerjan> <shachaf> Some people would go so far as to call it "a most ingenious paradox". <-- is this a quote from a relevant poem
01:31:40 <alercah> oerjan: from a relevant play
01:34:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Revolution 9]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=53225 * HereToAnnoy * (+199) Created page with "==STOP MAKING BRAINFUCK CLONES== Please stop making [[brainfuck]] clones.<br> Especially bad ones.<br> --~~~~"
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02:08:09 <oerjan> <fizzie> But chances are I'll manage to forget about how I encrypted the new one I'm making, as well. <-- this might be a rare case where writing it down is the best option hth
02:08:58 <boily> damn. walls aren't passable in the labyrinth.
02:12:41 <imode> counter machines are beautiful.
02:14:49 <oerjan> imode: i remembered how to do the proof. how much math do you know? i can do it short with compactness, or more long-winded without
02:15:22 <imode> oerjan: your choice! long-winded would be nice as I could study it and prompt you with questions in bulk rather than bug you randomly. :P
02:15:58 <oerjan> um the "compactness" is a technical math term, just so you know.
02:16:03 <imode> I'm digging into equivalent models and I see that it's rooted in counter machines, inspired by Minsky, Melzak and Lambek.
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02:17:22 <imode> shoot me the proof.
02:18:34 <oerjan> well ok first the common part. let's say you have a non-deterministic fractran program which simulates an ordinary one (so the result, and whether it halts, is unique).
02:19:08 <imode> right, and you could do that with extensive use of flag registers.
02:19:21 <oerjan> no, you cannot. that's what we're proving.
02:20:44 <oerjan> now assume one instance of the computation runs through a sequence of numbers n_1, n_2, ... etc.
02:21:32 <oerjan> let p_1, p_2, ..., p_k be the primes used. split up each number n_i into a tuple of exponents, one coordinate for each prime.
02:22:01 <oerjan> so the computation is now a sequence of elements of N^k
02:22:24 <imode> alright, I follow.
02:23:24 <oerjan> the thing is, and this is what can be proved two ways: for any such sequence there must exist two indices i and j>i such that every coordinate of t_i is smaller than the corresponding coordinate of t_j.
02:24:08 <imode> that enforces an ordering, right?
02:24:09 <oerjan> um, _unless_ the sequence is finite. so from now on we're assuming the computation _doesn't_ halt.
02:24:22 <oerjan> yes, it's a partial ordering on tuples.
02:24:34 <imode> alright, I follow.
02:26:48 <oerjan> for now, assume this about number tuples. now because of how nondeterministic fractran works, once we've found i and j, we can modify what happens from point j to get a new computation that simply increases linearly every j-i steps.
02:27:18 <oerjan> (btw this partial order of tuples corresponds to the original number n_i dividing n_j)
02:28:27 <oerjan> but this means that we know how to solve the halting problem for nondeterministic fractran. thus it cannot be turing complete.
02:28:57 <imode> now, by nondeterministic fractran, you mean randomized rule application, right.
02:29:13 <oerjan> well not just randomized, freely chosen.
02:29:49 <imode> I figured. so, riddle me this. that made sense (though I'm still chewwing on it), but how can P systems claim to be turing complete then?
02:30:20 <oerjan> because things on different sides of membranes cannot react with each other, i presume.
02:30:41 <imode> right, but that's just a really fancy way of saying "I'm in this state so these rules apply, while the others don't."
02:30:48 <imode> which you can achieve by flag registers.
02:31:22 <oerjan> yes but you have a state for _each_ object, and there's no bound on the number of them, so you'd need infinitely many flags
02:32:01 <oerjan> no what i'm saying isn't making sense.
02:32:12 <oerjan> let me go look up those P-systems.
02:32:19 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system
02:32:28 <imode> membrane dissolution directly corresponds to a flag change.
02:33:22 <imode> in that if I have some register with the current state as an integer, I can always prepend a check for that register on each instruction to say "this will only fire if the current state is 3".
02:34:11 <imode> and a state transition is non-symmetrical, meaning we alter said register after we match on a given rule that says "go to the next state."
02:34:22 <imode> instead of just filling it back in with the previous value.
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02:35:35 <imode> meaning a rule looks like state(1),... -> state(1),... when it's in one state, and on a transition, it looks like state(1),... -> state(2),...
02:36:27 <imode> to me that's what the membrane dissolution looks like. I can always know which state I'm in, and because of that I can enforce some sort of order on my computation without it having to be explicitly enforced by the rules of the P-system in question.
02:36:30 <imode> sans rule priority.
02:37:14 <imode> so that's really what's getting me. the fact that P-systems are very much like FRACTRAN but don't require any kind of explicit ordering in their rule set.
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02:51:05 <oerjan> hm oh flags _might_ work in nondeterministic fractran, you just need two opposite ones. something is weird here.
02:51:46 <imode> the only odd thing is that you can't test for something like xor.
02:52:04 <oerjan> so the problem isn't flags, it's that you cannot test a number for being zero.
02:52:19 <imode> mhm. but you can get around that by simply using 1 and 2. :P
02:52:28 <imode> really simple, that.
02:52:29 <oerjan> not for your _real_ data
02:52:51 <oerjan> you cannot test for <=1 either
02:53:47 <imode> no no, I mean... if I was using flags, instead of testing whether a flag was unset, I'd test if it was symbolically unset (i.e set to '1') or test if it was (i.e set to '2').
02:54:20 <oerjan> ok, so membrane dissolution may work. what doesn't work is the "maximally parallel" rule.
02:54:42 <oerjan> if _that_ is essential for getting TC-ness without priorities.
02:55:33 <oerjan> these p-systems have too many variants, it seems, so the statement you don't need priorities is very vague on what you _do_ need instead.
02:55:47 <imode> probably a lot of membranes.
02:55:50 <imode> if I were to guess.
02:56:19 <oerjan> according to the abstract linked to, only 1 or 2 dependent on variants.
02:57:39 <oerjan> i think of the things mentioned in the wikipedia article other than priorities, "maximally parallel" is what cannot be done in ND fractran.
02:58:34 <oerjan> well, or dividing membranes, but that seemed to be optional.
02:59:11 <imode> it's not too hard of a mental hurdle to delay the state change before you've gone through every possible rule.
02:59:36 <imode> that actually precludes every cellular automata, including 110.
03:00:54 <imode> though from experience most fractran programs would break.
03:03:25 <oerjan> imode: the problem is that to know when to stop delaying, you need to know when you have no more rules matching.
03:03:52 <oerjan> and you cannot do that because it's testing for absence of something
03:04:04 <imode> mmmm, I wouldn't say it is though.
03:04:29 <imode> it's less testing for the absence of something and more stopping if you have no more work to do.
03:04:44 <oerjan> "no more work to do" _is_ testing for absence.
03:04:51 <imode> converting a "test for negative" into a "continue if positive" is trivial.
03:05:05 <oerjan> because it is same as "we're out of input elements"
03:05:38 <oerjan> the point is there is nothing _forcing_ you to continue.
03:06:03 <imode> I don't see your point. fractran's stopping point is "I can't find a rule to apply".
03:06:32 <imode> what's the difference here? "hand the unchanged state to all the rules, see what pops out, add together everything that pops out."
03:06:37 <oerjan> yes, but this is not a final program stopping point. it's a "go to next phase" stopping point.
03:07:27 <oerjan> and you don't have the means to disallow it randomly going to the next phase even if it _isn't_ finished.
03:07:30 <imode> say I have two states with 3 rules in them. one rule in the first state says to go to the second state (by triggering a flag register).
03:08:05 <imode> if I apply all 3 rules maximally, I'll have a union of whatever each rule's output is.
03:08:26 <imode> if I apply all 6 rules maximally, I'll ahve a union of whatever each rule's output is.
03:09:11 <imode> in fact, let me sketch this out and paste it. text diagrams on IRC suck.
03:12:07 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/u00g so we have two states, each of which has 3 rules. the first state has a transition to the second. regardless of what the specifics of any of these rules are, the current state register always regulates which set of rules is active. all the rules operate on the current state at once and get clumped together after they're done.
03:16:44 <oerjan> you're definitely answering the wrong question but now i need to think of a clearer example...
03:21:40 <oerjan> ok this isn't quite satisfactory but how would you emulate the p-system rule "a -> aa" maximally parallely in ND fractran
03:22:51 <oerjan> note that it needs to exactly double the number of a's between some well-defined steps.
03:23:03 <imode> right, and it just involves one register. it's doubling a number.
03:23:29 <oerjan> and then it needs to do that again, indefinitely.
03:24:07 <imode> as the equivalent fractran program.
03:24:30 <oerjan> that would double the a's one at a time, not simultaneously.
03:24:53 <imode> steps are still there.
03:25:01 <imode> it's just that you don't find one rule then go back to the start.
03:25:14 <imode> you find all the rules that match, grab their left hand sides, and combine the whole set of states.
03:25:51 <oerjan> that's not how nondeterministic fractran works. you need to enforce it without having it a priori.
03:26:40 <oerjan> ND fractran does on rule at a time, P-systems as many as possible, and that may be the difference for TC-ness.
03:27:19 <imode> not sure what your point was with the a -> aa rule.
03:27:33 <oerjan> well it's an example in the wiki page
03:27:42 <imode> because regardless of whether it's ND fractran or not, I'd still select a rule and apply it.
03:28:20 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/ua1Z
03:28:46 <imode> here's a.. I guess approximation of the rule set they presented.
03:29:16 <oerjan> i don't understand your notation
03:29:34 <imode> 'state', 'a', 'c', 'd', 'e', etc. are just registers.
03:30:44 <imode> state(1),a(1) -> state(1),a(1),b(1) says "If the state register is >= 1 AND the 'a' register is => 1, subtract 1 from both and add 1 to the state register, the 'a' register, and the 'b' register."
03:30:58 <imode> because fractran simulates a register machine underneath.
03:33:15 <imode> hm, that could actually be modified into two rules for the first state.
03:33:39 <imode> gotta run for a few, but I'd like to continue this when I get back if possible oerjan!
03:34:03 <oerjan> that rule seems to be an infinite loop that can always trigger once it already has
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04:37:08 <oerjan> i now have more useless knowledge https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4
04:37:32 <imode> tell me your useless knowledge.
04:39:17 <oerjan> it was in that link hth
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04:41:27 <oerjan> also, that squaring P-system also uses maximal parallelism, i see. i'm pretty sure you'll have trouble converting it into a working ND fractran program.
04:42:37 <oerjan> i'm not sure NDF program even can multiply numbers
04:43:04 <imode> I think instead of talking about fractran, we should talk about counter machines in general.
04:43:25 <imode> because that's essentially all fractran is.
04:43:46 <oerjan> well yeah but ND fractran was what we started discussing, and that's weaker.
04:44:09 <imode> what exactly is ND fractran as you define it? free choice of rule application?
04:45:08 <imode> so instead of "apply all the rules at once, then move on" it's "select a rule from the list at your own will.
04:46:17 <imode> I see why that could be difficult but I'm not convinced that it's not possible for a true conversion.
04:46:43 <imode> mainly because I could totally skip rules and go for the state transition first.
04:47:24 <oerjan> for counter machines, it corresponds, i think, to having any test have a chance of jumping as if a register is zero even if it isn't.
04:47:50 <imode> so instead of free choice you have some kind of chance mechanism.
04:48:16 <imode> that's pretty close.
04:48:18 <oerjan> i didn't really mean that.
04:48:37 <oerjan> although i suspect you cannot do everything with randomness either.
04:49:03 <imode> there was some literature on nondeterministic prolog programs, and if you wanna look at fractran as a really bizzaro prolog clone, that may be cool. :P
04:50:53 <imode> https://ptpb.pw/uEFS so the only real issue I have with this system, if I was going to port it to ND fractran, is the rule with the asterisk next to it.
04:51:09 <imode> meaning if we're presented with any set of rules and one state transition, we can always choose the state transition as early as possible.
04:51:11 <oerjan> randomness might help, though, because you can then ignore a 0 probability of not halting.
04:52:40 <oerjan> imode: i think that rule is fine actually. the two previous ones are worse because how do you enforce that the first one doesn't fire alone?
04:53:15 <imode> yeah. you can go from the first to the third or repeatedly fire the first.
04:53:19 <imode> and totally ignore the second.
04:53:32 <imode> you could be dumb about it and break up every rule into its own state.
04:53:50 <imode> and form a mutual exclusion table.. thing.
05:00:07 <imode> I think you have to encode if-else combos if you're going to have "every rule is its own state".
05:00:30 <imode> meaning state(1),... -> state(2),...; state(2),... -> state(3),...; etc
05:00:41 <imode> trying to enforce some linear order.
05:01:34 <imode> "if you're in state N and your registers match these, go to state 1. else, go to state N+1."
05:03:01 <imode> I imagine there's some kind of way to encode that. if you could encode that you could write any set of fractran rules as ND fractran rules.
05:04:55 <alercah> oerjan: do you know for sure that NDF is weaker than DF?
05:08:38 <oerjan> alercah: it is decidable whether it has to halt
05:09:29 <oerjan> if it goes on long enough, you eventually _will_ reach a number divisible by a previous one.
05:09:44 <oerjan> and then you know it doesn't need to halt.
05:15:50 <quintopia> my question was whether NDF can evaluate all total recursive functions
05:16:11 <oerjan> i think there's also some way to upper bound the time until this happens, given the program and original input, and i suspect that the bound is primitive recursive.
05:17:09 <oerjan> otoh i'm not entirely sure NDF can even multiply two numbers given in 2^m 3^n format.
05:17:19 <oerjan> so it might be even less.
05:18:09 <imode> I'd like to build a "skeleton" in an attempt to port DF programs to NDF.
05:19:09 <oerjan> quintopia: i'm not _sure_ it's impossible, it's just that i don't see immediately how to do it either.
05:19:36 <oerjan> like everything else, it's about not being able to test for a "register" being smaller than a constant.
05:20:27 <imode> an approach might be to temporarily extend NDF to that kind of capability.
05:20:30 <oerjan> so you cannot really do it with nested for loops since you don't know how to break out of the inner one.
05:20:46 <oerjan> imode: but then it's a completely different task.
05:21:47 <imode> https://cms.math.ca/10.4153/CMB-1961-031-9 Melzak's model is also completely equivalent to fractran, so this is interesting.
05:22:38 <imode> well, not completely equivalent. wrong words. the concept is the same (take N from here, put M here.)
05:24:01 <imode> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-machine_model#1961:_Melzak_model:_a_single_ternary_instruction_with_addition_and_proper_subtraction far more brief here.
05:24:41 <imode> the difference is that his model appears to deal with one register at a time, while conway's deals with multiple registers at a time.
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05:27:44 <imode> but iirc he touches on something similar to conway's rule format.
05:31:17 <oerjan> imode: see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-machine_model#1961:_Minsky.27s_model_of_a_partial_recursive_function_reduced_to_a_.22program.22_of_only_two_instructions
05:32:08 <imode> yeah, he encodes an else branch.
05:34:06 <imode> so, if every rule in NDF had an explicit action for else, then you could encode any sequence of DF commands.
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05:34:37 <oerjan> that useless machine was invented by minsky btw
05:35:20 <oerjan> "Minsky's mentor at Bell Labs, information theory pioneer Claude Shannon (who later also became an MIT professor), made his own versions of the machine. He kept one on his desk, where science fiction author Arthur C. Clarke saw it. Clarke later wrote, "There is something unspeakably sinister about a machine that does nothing—absolutely nothing—except switch itself off", and he was fascinated by the
05:35:42 <imode> suicidal by design. :P
05:37:01 <oerjan> "Minsky also invented a "gravity machine" that would ring a bell if the gravitational constant were to change, a theoretical possibility that is not expected to occur in the foreseeable future."
05:38:22 <imode> shame he's now an icicle.
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05:39:34 <imode> so if by some measure, you did manage to construct a kind of skeleton with an explicit else branch, you could port any DF program to NDF. but until you have that link, NDF is weaker.
05:44:43 <imode> it may be interesting to compare with prolog's style of nondeterminism. multiple matching rules but only one choice.
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07:28:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheFriendlyEnemy * New user account
07:32:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53226&oldid=53178 * TheFriendlyEnemy * (+196)
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17:17:44 <b_jonas> I like today's SMBC. http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/smell-this
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17:43:25 <int-e> if only all SMBC comics were funny like this
17:45:05 <Slereah> they are fine but they tend to repeat jokes a lot
17:47:39 <int-e> I don't know. Most of them seem to be based on people being jerks quite deliberately.
17:47:58 <quintopia> you try drawing 7+ comics a week for years without repeating yourself. im impressed how even with such a rigorous schedule, its still funnier than xkcd on average
17:48:17 <Slereah> maybe don't draw one per day
17:48:27 <int-e> quintopia: I wouldn't try :P
17:49:39 <quintopia> the oatmeal is funnier on average but updates far less often
17:50:28 <quintopia> also all the long form side projects zach produces are creative and hilarious as well
17:51:17 <b_jonas> Slereah: they mostly just repeat jokes with xkcd. if you read both, you get many of the jokes twice. it's unclear which is first among the two, and hard to find otu.
17:51:39 <Slereah> I don't think any of them are first in most cases
17:51:45 <int-e> quintopia: but from what I've read about comics and comedy, being consistently funny is a full time job, though there are tricks that help (read diversely, talk to people, free association games, and obviously expect to discard 90% of your ideas.).
17:51:45 <Slereah> Those are just general science type jokes
17:51:49 <b_jonas> quintopia: yep, it has a very rigorous schedule, and he even managed to publish a book (with good reviews) on schedule
17:51:59 <Slereah> the type that other people have done before and after
17:52:08 <Slereah> Like Nearing Zero in the olden days
17:52:22 <b_jonas> Slereah: what's "Nearing Zero"?
17:52:30 <b_jonas> and I don't think it's just science, but ok
17:52:32 <Slereah> It was an old science webcomic
17:52:53 <Slereah> Also a lot of SMBC comics remind me a bit of "The Parking Lot is Full"
17:52:58 <Slereah> another old timey webcomic
17:53:05 <b_jonas> again, do you know an url?
17:53:14 <Slereah> Nearing Zero isn't online anymore but here's an arhcive
17:53:16 <Slereah> http://www.neatorama.com/2008/05/26/the-best-of-nearing-zero-by-nick-kim/
17:53:49 <Slereah> not actually a lot of them
17:54:33 <Slereah> http://www.lab-initio.com/best.html
17:54:39 <b_jonas> there's a rather long list at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?272481-Webcomic-List
17:54:47 <Slereah> http://www.lab-initio.com/250dpi/nz015.jpg
17:54:48 <b_jonas> and there was another comparable list somewhere but I can't remember wher
17:55:27 <Slereah> http://j.aufbix.org/plif/archive/archive.htm
17:55:34 <Slereah> and here's The Parking Lot is Full
17:55:41 <Slereah> http://imadudeyo.tumblr.com/
17:56:16 <int-e> . o O ( when we're done, lead poisoning will be the least of your worries )
17:56:28 <Slereah> In the same kind of off-beat comics like that you had like
17:56:53 <Slereah> No comics are really original, it is all just one long continuity
17:58:14 <b_jonas> sure, and every joke is new to a newborn
17:58:15 <int-e> all art is derivative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcvd5JZkUXY http://www.spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants.html
18:01:01 <Slereah> http://www.lab-initio.com/250dpi/nz192.jpg
18:01:14 <Slereah> Possibly a reference to the nobel prize for the discovery of the CMB!
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23:45:11 <imode> I'm still not convinced NDF isn't turing complete.
23:48:30 <imode> nondeterministic fractran. thue is nondeterministic and manages to be turing complete and the only difference is the idea that it supports ordered strings.
23:49:12 <imode> if you could show a thue program ported to NDF then you'd prove NDF is turing complete through thue.
23:49:38 <imode> the key is representing ordered strings.