< 1512777675 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :same golden ratio (the slope of the right queens is one plus that proportion, because the queens to the right are always placed on the next free diagonal) < 1512777765 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it looks like if you reorder the queens by x-y coordinate, then half of them are on each side of the x=y linen < 1512777785 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 10000: (3819,6181) < 1512777791 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that feels like it's the start of a proof < 1512777799 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm too tired to work out the details < 1512777853 0 :LKoen!~LKoen@2a01:e35:2eed:a430:8f4:d60:9e1a:d9e5 QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1512779595 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: In fact it appears that the antidiagonals (with constant x+y) only add noise to the otherwise pretty picture thing; if only diagonals (constant x-y) and vertical lines are considered, the queens could be placed at ([k*phi + 1], [k*(phi+1) + 1]) and ([k*(phi+1) + 1], [k*phi + 1]) for k >= 0, where [] is the floor function. < 1512779605 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ thing// < 1512779663 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and phi = (1+sqrt(5))/2) < 1512779719 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the challenge is to somehow show that the effect of the antidiagonals is negligible for those asymptotic slopes. < 1512780389 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Everything seems to boil down to showing that all verticals and diagonals are occupied, and there are only two asymptotic slopes; given that, if d is the proportion of queens to the right of the main diagonal, the k-th "right" queen will end up around (k/d + k, k/d), and the k-th "left" queen at (k/(1-d) - k, k/(1-d)); in order to occupy all verticals, the densities of k/d+k and k/(1-d)-k must... < 1512780395 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...sum to 1; hence, d/(1+d) + (1-d)/d = 1, 1 = d + d^2, d = (sqrt(5)-1)/2 = phi-1, and the resulting slopes are phi and phi+1...) < 1512781055 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1512781058 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-178-160-229.washdc.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512781360 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1512781449 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1512781456 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just as a note of caution, the recent changes feed may be a little flaky at first. I haven't set it up as an autostarted service. < 1512781961 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`relcome esowiki < 1512781963 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​04esowiki: 07Welcome 08to 09the 02international 06hub 13for 04esoteric 07programming 08language 09design 02and 06deployment! 13For 04more 07information, 08check 09out 02our 06wiki: 13. 04(For 07the 08other 09kind 02of 06esoterica, 13try 04#esoteric 07on 08EFnet 09or 02DALnet.) < 1512782043 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512785691 0 :moonythedwarf!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1512785812 0 :adu!~ajr@pool-71-178-160-229.washdc.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: adu < 1512785866 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1512786662 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, so apparently someone's been writing an OS in subleq, of all things: http://esoteric.codes/post/168290778358/a-programming-language-with-only-one-command-and < 1512786689 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512787266 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1512787985 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512788884 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1512789358 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512790941 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-toztvtgtbmexkekq QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1512790995 0 :moonythedwarf!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1512791436 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok it took me this long but I have stuff working on my new computer < 1512791481 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :And decided what color I want my computer keys to glow < 1512793181 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incoming connections do not seem to work on my computer (even though it worked yesterday). Is that a problem with my computer? The ISP seems to think so. < 1512793448 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, I think I may have found the problem < 1512793459 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. < 1512793466 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, int-e: Donald Knuth says he thinks this may never be proved. < 1512793478 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which seemed surprising to me. < 1512793481 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it seems to be correct < 1512793899 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "this" = what? the queens problem? < 1512793917 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, I assume you didn't ask him just now, so presumably he was studying it earlier) < 1512793924 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanna try this dawn os thing < 1512793949 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes. < 1512793961 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: He mentioned it at a talk I went to yesterday, which is where I learned about it. < 1512794066 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? queen < 1512794067 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :queen? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1512794068 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? shachaf < 1512794069 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions. < 1512794206 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh, it isn't on OEIS (unless I made a data entry mistake) < 1512794237 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I did make a data entry mistake < 1512794241 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://oeis.org/A065188 < 1512794269 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I linked it above. < 1512794364 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not since I joined, I think? < 1512794407 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I didn't know when you joined. < 1512794412 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you saw my original description. < 1512794854 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://gerigeri.uw.hu/DawnOS/img/dawnos.png < 1512794871 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I detect anime waifus in that screenshot < 1512795577 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1512795654 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512795966 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795966 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@104-50-90-48.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795966 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/oswg-member/yorick QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xdanbbejudcjhiao QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :puckipedia!~puck@irc.puckipedia.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :__20h__!~some_one@r-36.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :zarcade_droid!~arcade_dr@telg.xyz QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :BooK!~book@klonk.bruhat-souche.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@ip-2-203-46-55.web.vodafone.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.4 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795967 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795968 0 :LeoLambda!Leo@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe3e:12c3 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795968 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:f37d:291f:928:64c2:721e QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795968 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795968 0 :paul2520_!~paul2520@paulkaefer.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :sdhand!~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :iovoid!~iovoid@unaffiliated/iovoid QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :Guest96194!fractal@unaffiliated/scounder QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubng11-54f948-150.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795969 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :jjthrash!~jjthrash@util.brownbirdlabs.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :Yurume_______!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :Gregor!dlopen@71.19.155.102 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795970 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795971 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512795971 0 :deltab!~deltab@ds6266.dedicated.turbodns.co.uk QUIT :*.net *.split < 1512796131 0 :zzo38_!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796162 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1512796169 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1512796266 0 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :aloril!~aloril@dsl-tkubng11-54f948-150.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :Guest96194!fractal@unaffiliated/scounder JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :iovoid!~iovoid@unaffiliated/iovoid JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :sdhand!~sam@unaffiliated/kyubiko JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :j-bot!~j-bot@li1285-84.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :b_jonas!~x@russell2.math.bme.hu JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :jjthrash!~jjthrash@util.brownbirdlabs.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796266 0 :Yurume_______!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796441 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796441 0 :ski!~ski@remote11.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796441 0 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796441 0 :relrod!~relrod@redhat/relrod JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796441 0 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796441 0 :deltab!~deltab@ds6266.dedicated.turbodns.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796475 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796475 0 :paul2520_!~paul2520@paulkaefer.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796505 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796505 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@104-50-90-48.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796505 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796505 0 :yorick!~yorick@oftn/oswg-member/yorick JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796505 0 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796520 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@104-50-90-48.lightspeed.brhmal.sbcglobal.net QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1512796556 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796556 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796556 0 :Gregor!dlopen@71.19.155.102 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796556 0 :grumble!~grumble@freenode/staff/grumble JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796556 0 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796556 0 :newsham!~chat@udp217044uds.hawaiiantel.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796556 0 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796597 0 :MrBismuth!~ArcMrBism@2602:306:8325:a300:1426:998c:b44b:81fb JOIN :#esoteric < 1512796872 0 :zzo38_!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1512797026 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1512797064 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: shachaf: here's a much easier problem: make it so that the queens can only attack north-south and northeast-southeast < 1512797067 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797077 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*northwest-southeast < 1512797102 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where do you put the corner? < 1512797108 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'll find that the pattern is much simpler due to no random northeast-southwest lining-ups, and yet the ratio is still the golden ratio < 1512797118 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this is based in int-e's picture, starting in the top left < 1512797145 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that should be very easy to prove < 1512797172 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it might be possible to prove that the northeast-southwest lining-ups aren't common enough to make a long-term difference to the ratio < 1512797261 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :The DHCP server is giving me an invalid IP address "192.168.0.3" but somehow outgoing connections still work; incoming connections don't work. How to fix it? < 1512797500 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1512797992 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xdanbbejudcjhiao JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :puckipedia!~puck@irc.puckipedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :__20h__!~some_one@r-36.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :zarcade_droid!~arcade_dr@telg.xyz JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :BooK!~book@klonk.bruhat-souche.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :idris-bot!~idris-bot@ip-2-203-46-55.web.vodafone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.4 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :LeoLambda!Leo@2600:3c01::f03c:91ff:fe3e:12c3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512797992 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:f37d:291f:928:64c2:721e JOIN :#esoteric < 1512798003 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xdanbbejudcjhiao QUIT :Max SendQ exceeded < 1512798117 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-syaxaogpwwhgwmfk JOIN :#esoteric < 1512798559 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fixed it < 1512798829 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-50-137.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1512799022 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1512799083 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found out what the problem was and corrected it. Now the IP address changed back to what it was before, and it works (although the DNS will also have to be reverted; once it is, then it will work I expect) < 1512799233 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why it suddenly stopped working today, but fortunately I managed to fix it, after figuring out what was the correct password for the modem (the people on the telephone gave me an incorrect password) < 1512800160 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: You're forbidding east-west too, of course < 1512800166 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that's implicit in the greedy algorithm < 1512800241 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, EW is irrelevant here < 1512800263 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But this gives us http://oeis.org/A002251 < 1512800347 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or I guess you'd call it http://oeis.org/A019444 < 1512800427 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Also, a lexicographically minimal sequence of distinct positive integers such that all values of a(n)-n are also distinct" < 1512800438 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They don't make the connection explicit, this is probably worth submitting. < 1512800809 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you solve this problem Knuth will sign your thesis. < 1512801247 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512801450 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Copy the good messages from the old forum into a static document. The bad messages could be moved into another static document, maybe. < 1512801495 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, I have never heard of this "infinite queen" problem. < 1512801505 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-syaxaogpwwhgwmfk QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1512802101 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1512802737 0 :augur!~augur@192.195.83.130 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1512804124 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I played chess earlier today, and my opponent resigned after I failed to recapture one of his pawns with one of my own, instead choosing to advance without capturing. < 1512804152 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Crement14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53554&oldid=53490 5* 03Zzo38 5* (+72) 10Categories < 1512804257 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:844b:8aba:59a:dea0:d89:cbcb JOIN :#esoteric < 1512805265 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1512805350 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1512805606 0 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512806242 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-clewplvdmgdjgryl JOIN :#esoteric < 1512806386 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:844b:8aba:59a:dea0:d89:cbcb QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1512806881 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512807341 0 :* Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d: PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello < 1512807349 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haneb < 1512807450 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a new bot specifically for the wiki I see? < 1512807478 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEgo was both for the wiki you see and for the wiki you don't see < 1512807494 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This one is more useful to you < 1512807494 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe less useful? < 1512807540 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1512808010 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Wythoff's Nim is a game where there are two piles, and you can remove some number from either pile, or you can remove from both piles, if you remove the same number from each one < 1512808032 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This variation would allow you to move from one pile to the other as well. < 1512808211 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1512808322 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course this isn't guaranteed to terminate. < 1512808526 0 :variable!?@? NICK :function < 1512808530 0 :function!?@? NICK :terminates < 1512808533 0 :terminates!?@? NICK :function < 1512808537 0 :Taneb!~Taneb@2001:41c8:51:10d:: PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf, what is the objective? < 1512808539 0 :function!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION terminates shachaf  < 1512808542 0 :function!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1512808616 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You lose (or win?) if it's your turn and both piles are empty. < 1512810545 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1512810923 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1512811147 0 :copumpkin!copumpkinm@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1512811749 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll email Sloane about this. < 1512812214 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Quit: for the night < 1512813276 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DDC3.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1512814596 0 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcotmwoffiyz31.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1512814717 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell ais523 I already gave a solution (though without proof) for that simplified version almost 5 hours before you proposed it :P < 1512814717 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1512814779 0 :function!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell lambdabot that I'm testing lambdabot < 1512814779 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice try ;) < 1512815003 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Huh, I didn't see that. < 1512815050 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I was just writing an email to Sloane about it before and decided not to because ais523 wasn't here. < 1512815059 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I wanted to think about it some more. < 1512815095 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://oeis.org/A002251 is indeed the best possible approximation of those two lines. < 1512815702 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Underlying this is an instance of the following amazing elementary theorem (which probably has a name, hmm.): If a,b > 1 are irrational numbers with 1/a + 1/b = 1, then the sequences ([a*k])_k and ([b*k])_k (k >= 1) are disjoint and cover the natural numbers >= 1, where again [] is the floor function. < 1512815753 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/phi + 1/(phi+1) = 1. (or, if you prefer, 1/phi + 1/phi^2 = 1) < 1512816046 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is apparently called Rayleigh's Theorem or Beatty's Theorem < 1512816053 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatty_sequence https://proofwiki.org/wiki/Beatty%27s_Theorem < 1512816060 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks < 1512816076 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was wondering how to search for it.) < 1512816130 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I considered starting from http://oeis.org/A002251 where the name Beatty comes up... would have been a viable route, probably :) < 1512816130 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are the two full queen sequences Beatty? < 1512816166 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, they are too noisy (the lower "line" isn't even monotonically increasing). < 1512816206 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, right. < 1512816521 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you figure out this theorem just now, or what? < 1512816534 0 :function!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :its fun reading through the commit history of /dev/random < 1512816841 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, I learned about it as a teenager < 1512816852 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1512816879 0 :function!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1512816883 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That theorem was a teenager quite a long time ago. < 1512816894 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so was I :P < 1512816906 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(though not quite that long :P) < 1512816910 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1512816926 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Client Quit < 1512817005 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1512817020 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Client Quit < 1512817051 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1512817068 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Client Quit < 1512817080 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew from reading OEIS that it was true for phi but I didn't realize it was true for any sequence. < 1512817084 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :p. fancy < 1512817271 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-clewplvdmgdjgryl QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1512817302 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-vwucfzgtzvdteewi JOIN :#esoteric < 1512817986 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Yes, though it doesn't do anything else than the recent change feed. < 1512818081 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`5 w < 1512818086 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1/2:procrasti//The Procrasti were an ancient people whose nation would have been a great empire if they'd ever got around to it. \ lie bracket//Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them. \ costume//Costumes are used for cosplay. Ta < 1512818091 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`n < 1512818091 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :2/2:neb sometimes invents them. \ shrimp//Shrimp transcends the concept of meat. \ cookie//Hackego wants a cookie! *hangs* < 1512818121 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: You don't invent all costumes? < 1512818129 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cwlprits cookie < 1512818136 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moonythedwar̈f < 1512818140 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I knew it. < 1512818160 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat canary < 1512818160 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: canary: Permission denied < 1512818172 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat < canary < 1512818172 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really go to sleep. < 1512818173 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: < canary: No such file or directory < 1512818177 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` cat < canary < 1512818178 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: canary: Permission denied < 1512818194 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` file canary < 1512818195 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :canary: empty < 1512818208 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remind me, do you follow the Mill? < 1512818296 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mill_architecture < 1512818324 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :If so, I can't say that I'm following it. I'm vaguely aware that it exists. < 1512818339 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that. < 1512818351 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I went to their talk the other day, there are a few things that are still unclear. < 1512818378 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :keeping canary readonly sort of sabotages its purpose... < 1512818407 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm canary < 1512818428 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`echo hi < 1512818428 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1512818435 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ogles int-e  < 1512818437 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm: remove write-protected regular empty file ‘canary’? < 1512818437 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat canary < 1512818438 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: canary: Permission denied < 1512818444 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh! < 1512818452 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had to time out < 1512818465 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` chmod u+w canary < 1512818466 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1512818487 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`rm canary < 1512818488 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1512818492 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`stat canary < 1512818493 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​ File: ‘canary’ \ Size: 0 Blocks: 0 IO Block: 1024 regular empty file \ Device: 12h/18d Inode: 672529 Links: 1 \ Access: (0644/-rw-r--r--) Uid: ( 5000/ UNKNOWN) Gid: ( 0/ UNKNOWN) \ Access: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.000000000 +0000 \ Modify: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.000000000 +0000 \ Change: 2017-12-09 11:20:51.0000000 < 1512818530 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -l canary < 1512818531 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 11:20 canary < 1512818532 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that was to be expected (recreating it from the repo will reset the access rights) < 1512818556 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` chmod -r canary < 1512818556 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1512818571 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's fine this way. < 1512818576 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the description of the Mill's belt: "hardware SSA' < 1512818580 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`` ls -l canary < 1512818581 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​--w------- 1 5000 0 0 Dec 9 11:20 canary < 1512818595 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :fancy < 1512818655 0 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1512818759 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I actually have three lectures of the guy (at Stanford a few years ago) downloaded, but never got around to watching them... probably never will. Skimming a paper is more realistic for me. < 1512818793 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since 2013, wow) < 1512818860 0 :ddlyheadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512818898 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Some of it is written up on the website now. < 1512818913 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unfortunately a lot is still in video form. Video isn't a great way to transmit information. < 1512818932 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those lectures are better watched at 2x speed. < 1512818974 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can read e.g. https://millcomputing.com/topic/introduction-to-the-mill-cpu-programming-model-2/ < 1512818997 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those diagrams are awful on a dark background. < 1512819011 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1512819237 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang talk:Funding14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53555&oldid=53553 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+47) 10Ho humsigned < 1512819432 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, thanks. I'm not very MediaWiki-talk-oriented. < 1512819641 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : shachaf: "this" = what? the queens problem? <-- . o O ( maybe we should just forbid shachaf from using that word ) < 1512819664 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: He won't like that. < 1512819708 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees what int-e did there. < 1512819784 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? this < 1512819785 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a word < 1512819796 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: anyway, large parts of this remind me of HP's and intel's EPIC approach. < 1512819816 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn This is something shachaf likes to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1512819819 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'thi': This is something shachaf likes to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1512819819 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Not to say EPIC failure. Well I guess I had to say it.) < 1512819823 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1512819836 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: Come on, that this wasn't a reference to this. < 1512819846 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I think zzo38 should get credit. < 1512819859 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah I think zzo38 started this. < 1512819865 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: he may have started it, but you made it jump the shark hth < 1512819887 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert < 1512819888 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1512819889 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf@iodine:~/logs/esoteric/tunes-13-$ grep 'Do you like this' 17.* | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn < 1512819904 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And I may have been a bit of a catalyst simply by complaining about this.) < 1512819918 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :77 \ 19 \ 2 \ 1 \ 1 < 1512819924 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, enough of this. (Argh.) < 1512819928 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just so we're clear about this. < 1512819943 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1512819944 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'thi': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1512819945 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Actually, the catalyst was a former coworker of mine who knew zzo38 through another medium. < 1512819950 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1512819958 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`revert < 1512819959 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Done. < 1512819960 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :itym `oops < 1512819964 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/oops < 1512819965 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat: bin/oops: No such file or directory < 1512819968 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`cat bin/whoops < 1512819968 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "«${NEW}» already exists"; exit 1; fi; mv "$OLD" "$NEW" && echo "«${OLD}» -> «${NEW}»" < 1512819970 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's damn hard to stop. (One more: shachaf is the one who made this painful.) < 1512819971 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1512819977 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`le/rn this//This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1512819979 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relearned 'this': This is something people on the channel like to talk about. We're often unsure what this is, though. < 1512819988 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag bin/whoops < 1512819990 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :now it's nice and inclusive. < 1512819994 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :9714:2016-11-17 whoop ../bin/whoop \ 9713:2016-11-17 ` mv bin/whoop{s,} \ 9710:2016-11-17 ` mv bin/whoops{s,} \ 9709:2016-11-17 whoops \ 9708:2016-11-17 mkx bin/whoops//OLD="wisdom/$1"; [ -z "$1" ] && OLD="$(lastfiles)"; NEW="${OLD}s"; if [ -f "$NEW" ]; then echo "\xc2\xab${NEW}\xc2\xbb alread < 1512820017 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: You gotta learn to use your ownventions < 1512820024 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: i know i made it, but now i was suddenly queasy about keeping the history on the right file < 1512820209 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: So... there are some questions that Mill has to answer; foremost, perhaps, how well utilised the VLIW words will be. There's also the issue with memory bounded stuff (where, actually, it's beneficial to have out of order execution; you may have one load from cache and one from memory without knowing which one will be which in advance)... and there's utilisation of compute units;... < 1512820215 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :...hyperthreading is done for a reason. So, hmm. It's interesting to watch but too early to buy into, I think. < 1512820262 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The first point is about code size and correspondingly, required memory bandwidth for code.) < 1512820281 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's certainly too early to buy into. But they have a lot of creative ideas. < 1512820288 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They've responded to some of your points. < 1512820342 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :E.g. They say that ~88% of the benefit of an OOO chip can be achieved with static scheduling, I think/ < 1512820345 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://piazza-resources.s3.amazonaws.com/hf1cdb546x444z/hg1su47nz4g5po/Discerning.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIEDNRLJ4AZKBW6HA&Expires=1512831104&Signature=GMYlhuBq1ACt%2BYsVJuTi1nhGtg0%3D < 1512820402 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have all sorts of tricks for getting high instruction parallelism. Hard to say how well it'll really work in practice this far in advance, of course, but they have a working LLVM backend and they say it generates code that uses it well. < 1512820455 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They also say that they don't think hyperthreading will give that much benefit over just adding more cores for most general-purpose code. < 1512820526 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1512820526 0 :ddlyheadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1512820532 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512820541 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1512820820 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Javagrid14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53556&oldid=53093 5* 03Stefan-hering 5* (+19) 10 < 1512820879 0 :oerjan!~oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1512821322 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: The way I see it, hyperthreading pays for a lot of the OOO execution complexity, by using the same instruction scheduling engine for two threads. I'll admit that it's totally unclear whether two simpler cores are better or worse. < 1512821680 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm certainly not a CPU designer. < 1512821692 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They discussed it a bit in the most recent talk on threading. < 1512821732 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither am I (obviously?) < 1512821782 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heck I have not even used an FPGA, or even something like Verilog in a simulator. < 1512821793 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Their claim is that the machinery that has to be duplicated to implement SMT is almost as expensive as another core, that you don't really get that much benefit for typical workloads, especially when you get increased instruction-level parallelism with their other tricks. < 1512821821 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And that there's a lot of ILP that an OOO CPU can't see because it's too far ahead. < 1512821836 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course we heard some of these same claims with the Itanium. < 1512821854 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they give various reasons they think they'll be able to do better. < 1512821974 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm maybe I should get myself a copy of the Hennessy Patterson book for christmas? < 1512822026 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, probably not. No time for that, really. < 1512822196 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, wow... Blu-ray cheaper than DVD, I don't think I've seen that happen before. (There's a solution to the puzzle: the Blu-ray version has been available for almost a year now.) < 1512822207 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Wiki dumps14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=53557&oldid=39282 5* 03Fizzie 5* (+49) 10Update dump schedule, make numbers bigger. < 1512822379 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If there's anyone regularly downloading the XML dump daily, please switch to a weekly schedule, because it's now generated weekly. < 1512822455 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(At least if you're not using zsync.) < 1512822459 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: DVD is a collector's item < 1512822546 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Because of bandwidth constraints? < 1512822768 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Let's say it felt like the right tradeoff to make, judging from edit frequency. I don't think daily would be an issue, but there are many days with no edits (though recently's been pretty active). < 1512822947 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, are you asking pople not to do it because of bandwidth constraints? < 1512823007 0 :DHeadshot!~DHeadshot@cpc88301-woki8-2-0-cust688.6-2.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512823038 0 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :How much should I pay esolangs.org for daily dump download dispensation? < 1512823062 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :More out of a general sense of appropriateness. It doesn't seem to make sense to download it more frequently than it's generated. < 1512823129 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :If y'all (that's the word, right?) do prefer to have it generated daily, we can do daily. < 1512823220 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :A single person downloading the non-zsync dump every day would mean about +2 GiB/month; we're around ~100 GiB/month as it is, with a nominal limit of 1 TiB/month. < 1512823613 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have metrics on how much zsync saves. :/ < 1512824357 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-vwucfzgtzvdteewi QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1512825134 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. The xml dump is a single file, so I guess the main benefit is that zsync is cheap when there's no new dump. < 1512825311 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 440964486 / 215318 < 1512825313 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 2047.968520978274 < 1512825611 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I thought zsync's supposed to be clever about downloading only changed parts within files? < 1512825649 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :AIUI, it writes the rsync-style per-block checksums to the metadata file it downloads, and then does HTTP range requests to get only the necessary bytes. < 1512825650 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :So apparently the .zsync file contains a header and 11 bytes (hmm, 3 bytes weak and 8 bytes strong hash?) per 2048 byte chunk of the /uncompressed/ esolang.xml file. < 1512825786 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Let me read a bit more. < 1512825803 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zsync.moria.org.uk/paper/ is what I was basing that on. < 1512825844 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :(We're using "zsyncmake -z" on the original uncompressed dump.) < 1512826022 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512826096 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah it sounds like it should do a decent job. (Rolling hashes, on uncompressed data, plus offset information for peaking into the right locations of the .gz file) < 1512826204 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. "But it is possible to decompress the file and then recompress it with a variety of options, until a set of options is found that produces a file identical to the original." < 1512826425 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay... I'd hope to see savings in the 20x to 30x range (30 is an upper bound coming from the size of the esolang.xml.zsync file itself), and just a couple of hundred bytes download if the contents has not been changed at all. < 1512826454 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assuming that the wiki dump doesn't randomly shuffle pages. < 1512826843 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1512827297 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512827689 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-tegyzdqchypbtrir JOIN :#esoteric < 1512828137 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I've seen, it's in article ID order. < 1512828148 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :...I think. < 1512828185 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might be confusing that with the file cache rebuild script, they both print similar outputs. < 1512828264 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :zcat esolang.xml.gz | grep '^ ' looks pretty monotonic, so I guess that's right. < 1512828371 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :For people who really want full dumps, offering a .xz might help; that shrinks the 66MB (gzip) to 20MB (xz). < 1512828470 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Well, 21MB. gzip -9 is 63MB, bzip2 -9 results in 33MB) < 1512828527 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(gzip -9 may interfere with the zsync, of course) < 1512828548 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the difference in compression ratio there is kind-of astonishing < 1512828599 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe we could steal an algorithm from the Human Knowledge Compression Contest? that specifically uses MediaWiki dumps as the test case for compression < 1512828635 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there's no real point in using compression software that isn't commonly available, I think. < 1512828781 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/GOVA ... that's the things I could think of < 1512828873 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: Do you want to check what the --rsync flag does to the gzip lines? < 1512828876 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :While you're at it... < 1512828988 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :gzip -9 --rsync results in 64528216 (instead of 62915220) < 1512829073 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> 64528216 / 62915220 < 1512829076 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1.025637612011847 < 1512829111 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This increase size by less than 1 percent most cases." ... well close enough I guess < 1512829254 0 :sdhand!?@? NICK :whateverhewants < 1512829279 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: looks like the second-place entry is GPL < 1512829468 0 :whateverhewants!?@? NICK :sdhand < 1512829648 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION twiddles his thumbs < 1512829744 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some paq variant can squeeze out a bit more indeed. http://sprunge.us/bjUW < 1512829797 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I expect that most linux systems at least have xz these days; I had not heard of lrz before. < 1512829867 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :How about brotli? ;) (I don't think it's going to set any records.) < 1512829935 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh I'll pass < 1512829970 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually let me check if I have a package < 1512830050 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how long it'll take though < 1512830243 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, wow. < 1512830263 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :> gzip -d < esolang.xml.gz | brotli | wc -c ==> 20748329 < 1512830266 0 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric : :1:26: error: parse error on input ‘|’ < 1512830273 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :in about 3 minutes < 1512830419 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should've timed all those commands < 1512831397 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a nice bump over gzip. I wonder if there's some non-inlined resources I could brotli precompress, given that a bunch of browsers do support it. < 1512831591 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/KJOL < 1512831616 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's enough playing around with compressors < 1512831654 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the last two entries say something about the (lack of) worth of hyperthreading for BWT based compression. < 1512832045 0 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:98df:f37d:291f:928:64c2:721e PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Do you like "Do you like this?"? < 1512833331 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1512834424 0 :fungot!~fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1512835730 0 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie TOPIC #esoteric :Happy 15th birthday, #esoteric! | Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | http://esolangs.org | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf < 1512835873 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512837352 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1512837684 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1512837927 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`unidecode 🌽 < 1512837929 0 :HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :​[U+1F33D EAR OF MAIZE] < 1512838017 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooooh, useful bot < 1512838388 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1512838430 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1512840279 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tempted to add https://xkcd.com/1926/ to the topic < 1512840349 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not insane enough < 1512840362 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Haskell isn't particularly inappropriate for HTML parsing < 1512840365 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do it < 1512840373 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm int-e < 1512840375 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's hard to see why the spreadsheet formula would help < 1512840375 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Perhaps not, but it reminds me of the time I wrote a Perl program that generated a Java program that generated a Java program.) < 1512840404 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetHack 4's build process involves a Perl program that builds a C program then runs it to generate another C program < 1512840406 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: likely not new to you, but just in case https://github.com/mame/quine-relay < 1512840414 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that is one of the /least/ insane parts of it :-D < 1512840429 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: quine relays are fairly boring IMO because it's basically just a whole load of nested print statements < 1512840441 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :variable: I've definitely seen some version of that idea. < 1512840442 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :how many languages does it have, incidentally? < 1512840455 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 128 < 1512840480 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's less than I was expecting < 1512840518 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, have a program that prints a different integer in each of 159 different languages: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/149451 < 1512840543 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the most recently added was Literate Agda) < 1512840560 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's slightly cheating because you can often bridge several programming languages in one step at little cost, just given a function that turns a string into a program that prints it. < 1512840587 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I assumed it did that for every language < 1512840589 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or perhaps not cheating, but this demystifies this whole thing quite a bit. < 1512840594 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then just used one language to revert the whole mess at the end < 1512840603 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well you actually have to diagonalize from time to time. < 1512840614 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was thinking you'd only diagonalize once < 1512840618 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1512840635 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know, but I imagine it would grow too big to actually be executed that way in some steps. < 1512840677 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was assuming that that would actually be smaller < 1512840727 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's whitespace, intercal, and brainfuck in the loop, all of which explode for string constants, I think. < 1512840740 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway < 1512840765 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never looked closely so you may well be right < 1512840782 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe all three are linear < 1512840788 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just more than 1 byte per byte < 1512840798 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1512840823 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, I can't think of an esolang offhand in which encoding strings is O(n²) < 1512840826 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is surprising < 1512840845 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that is, in terms of source code length; there are likely several which are O(n²) at printing them) < 1512840854 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how the readme starts with $ ulimit -s unlimited < 1512840937 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes me shudder a bit, I naturally want to write it as -Ss, but then I realised the two are equivalent in this case < 1512840967 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :. o O ( getting a new shell is cheap ) < 1512840983 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without -S the ulimit is unincreasable within that shell session, which is useful to stop potentially rogue programs undoing it but isn't what you want to catch honest mistakes; however, if you're setting it to unlimited, that hardly matters…) < 1512841077 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does the build process use a Perl program and then it builts a C program and then another C program? It seem like strange to me < 1512841201 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the Perl program automates the entire build; the first C program parses the source of the second C program and generates things like constants based on string literals < 1512841526 0 :GeekDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric < 1512842146 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1512842485 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would thre be a possibility compiling NetHack into RogueVM? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/roguevm I have written a section at the end with some considerations about NetHack < 1512842610 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Specifically, hangup saves won't be a problem in RogueVM. < 1512842678 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: can it handle function pointers? NetHack needs those < 1512842732 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also the data storage model is quite different from NetHack's, you could probably compile into it but you'd be missing most of the features < 1512842747 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and most versions of NetHack use the "struct hack"; I think it might have been removed from 3.6 though) < 1512842762 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; any function pointer is a number indexing into the function table, so you can use those numbers as function pointers. < 1512842794 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but things like "input map coordinates" aren't really useful for NetHack because NetHack does things /during/ the coordinate input process < 1512842810 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :such as jumping to monsters on keypress, hover-farlook, and the like < 1512842823 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: The document is not yet complete; I did intend to add support for those kind of things too < 1512842846 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero < 1512842866 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :About the data storage model though, it could be "hidden behind" the implementations of malloc() and such, if needed < 1512842959 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another thing I should add is support for use of multiple character sets (the user configuration or something else determines what is used) < 1512843116 0 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uoikblyusxjttaky JOIN :#esoteric < 1512843251 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512843328 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :As you can see some of the sections say (TODO) on it; maybe you have some suggestions relating to them. < 1512843384 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:872c:5b9b:8f1:e1f7:829a:a7b3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1512843794 0 :hkgit03!~hkgit03@ip4d16fe9d.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1512843964 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"AlphaZero learns Chess and surpasses StockFish" -- while burning about 2MW of electricity in TPUs. < 1512843987 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, I cut the quote short, it said "in 4 hours" < 1512844015 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :would it still win if its power were cut down? < 1512844082 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note, that is the power spent while training. The power for playing is probably a fairly normal 1-2kW. < 1512844086 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, we must expect a correlation between power usage and chess skill. humans are much better than birds at chess after all < 1512844112 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :("normal" for a high end PC/server) < 1512844145 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. well yeah. power/time tradeoffs < 1512844219 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rumors are that they didn't give Stockfish any opening book or table bases. Oh and 1GB of hashtables are mentioned in the whitepaper which isn't so much either. < 1512844308 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that seems unfair. tablebases are an important part of stockfish's strength. alphazero doesn't and shouldn't need them. < 1512844352 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, even without them, it held alphazero to a draw in a large majority of games < 1512844365 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, chess is a draw :P < 1512844419 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :where does randomness enter those algorithms? they are obviously not deterministic < 1512844433 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't alphazero necessarily be stronger if given tablebases? < 1512844450 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, there's no need for an approximate evaluation function if you have a mathematically correct one < 1512844456 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :They have some MCTS on top of the neural network; the policy part of the network is used to determine probabilities of where to explore next. < 1512844477 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :it learned enough to produce the same results as the tablebases i think < 1512844489 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1512844507 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure it would necessarily be stronger, against a non-perfect opponent. < 1512844508 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the reason they use MCTS not alpha-beta is because the neural network's evaluations are somewhat unstable (= more sensitive than they should be to small changes in the input) and MCTS is better at coping with the instability < 1512844547 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: so your idea is that alphazero evaluation is better than tablebases at determining which lines an opponent is likely to misplay? < 1512844554 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with tablebases it's hard to go for tricking the opponent) < 1512844562 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does milwaukee county transit system have to do with it? < 1512844576 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know. < 1512844578 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :monte-carlo tree search < 1512844588 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: But this is a possible way that adding tablebases could make a program weaker. < 1512844592 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1512844706 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may also add odd discontinuities in an evaluation function, if it's used in the tree search (starting from a non-table-base position). < 1512844778 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :One conservative idea that should definitely work is to take the MCTS move and override it if it worsens the evaluation according to tablebases. < 1512844810 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think that definitely works < 1512844811 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where "work" means it should not weaken the engine. < 1512844833 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Unless playing against execptionally bad opposition :P) < 1512844847 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or along similar lines, the only allowable moves should be those that are tablebase-optimal but you use the normal algorithm to choose between them < 1512845050 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if theres a way to use the first few moves or games to determine the opponents strengtha < 1512845085 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if found to be much lower, go for slightly suboptimal moves that are likely to be badly mise aluated < 1512845137 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you recognize bad moves then you can probably exploit them anyway :P < 1512845163 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I cannot really answer the question.) < 1512845173 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I have managed to make an alternative way to make a Minsky machine with Crement < 1512845196 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except maybe that opening books cover the first few moves so you shouldn't hope to learn much about the opponent's strength from those.) < 1512845199 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: well, if you're playing against an opponent who has a tablebase, you can assume that it's not going to play tablebase-suboptimal moves < 1512845208 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if you're up at stockfish's or alphazero's level, all viable opponents will have one < 1512845421 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :171 < 1512845445 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops. < 1512845679 0 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1512845797 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but maybe after a few games you can recognize a weaker player who relies heavily on books and tablebases, and do a better job of steering them into the weeds where those will be less useful < 1512846191 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :quintopia: you can get the full game theory... in the next iteration, players can emulate weak players and then strike when the other player tries to exploit those weaknesses ;) < 1512846207 0 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, not full game theory, just the two player zero sum part, I guess) < 1512846281 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1512846552 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1512848645 0 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem JOIN :#esoteric < 1512849381 0 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero < 1512849401 0 :hkgit03!~hkgit03@ip4d16fe9d.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1512849998 0 :zseri_!~zseri@i5E86C9B1.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1512850125 0 :zseri__!~zseri@i5E86CCFC.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1512850167 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86DDC3.versanet.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1512850336 0 :zseri_!~zseri@i5E86C9B1.versanet.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1512850435 0 :zseri__!~zseri@i5E86CCFC.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1512850797 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1512850859 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1512851176 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-tegyzdqchypbtrir QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1512851411 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1512851457 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1512851870 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 255 seconds < 1512851894 0 :heroux!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-xrmztcbuktvzqivi JOIN :#esoteric < 1512851895 0 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1512852007 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf JOIN :#esoteric < 1512852296 0 :moony!~moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone here used https://www.ponylang.org/ ? < 1512852894 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86CCFC.versanet.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1512853471 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512854143 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1512854445 0 :augur!~augur@2600:380:872c:5b9b:8f1:e1f7:829a:a7b3 QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1512857031 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1512857536 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: cool idea. hard to exploit. what if you have to lose two games to convince your opponent to help you win one? < 1512857564 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :soon it becomes a matter of exploiting the number of games in the match < 1512857629 0 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia PRIVMSG #esoteric :at which point you hide the number of games to be played from the competitors. (of course, i dont think they give them that info to begin with) < 1512859175 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 250 seconds < 1512859183 0 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-13-153.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1512859809 0 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-24-7-67-0.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512859864 0 :boily!~alexandre@modemcable225.73-200-24.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1512860545 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1512860906 0 :zseri!~zseri@i5E86CCFC.versanet.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1512861986 0 :jaboja!~jaboja@jaboja.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1512863138 0 :fizzie!?@? PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try to flip a thing. < 1512863144 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1512863158 0 :esowiki!~esowiki@techne.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric