00:01:33 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:05:17 -!- HereToAnnoy has joined. 00:07:53 -!- HereToAnnoy has quit (Client Quit). 00:20:49 -!- Guest2264 has changed nick to sdhand. 00:20:55 -!- sdhand has quit (Changing host). 00:20:55 -!- sdhand has joined. 00:21:25 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 00:22:27 <\oren\_> alercah: the way I heard that story, the prof was at yorku. he stated a lemma as being obvious. a student asks: "is that really obvious?" the professor stared at the chalkboard for a minute... two minutes... three minutes. the students also stared at it. some scribbled in their notebooks. after 10 minutes of silence, the professor announced: "yes, it's obvious." 00:24:01 That is a well-known but different story. 00:24:02 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 00:39:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:50:52 There was also a nice list of different types of proof on one of those humoristic text files that go around and around. 00:51:15 http://www.lel.ed.ac.uk/~heycock/proof.html is the first instance I could find, though I'm sure they vary. 01:20:14 [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54423&oldid=54296 * Oerjan * (+175) /* Kolakoski sequence */ Copy my golfing answer here 01:20:52 Taneb: ^ 01:28:46 -!- variable has joined. 01:30:45 Cale: Oh man, polycategories are obviously the answer here. 01:31:58 . o O ( you have a category problem, and think "i'll use polycategories"... ) 01:32:38 oerjan: It gets worse. What I want is a 2-polycategory. 01:33:25 that does sound worse. 01:33:25 But I'll settle for a regular polycategory for now. 01:33:39 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 01:33:44 hey 01:33:50 what did i do to deserve that 01:33:56 "regular" hth 01:34:05 Wait, is that a pun? 01:34:23 on the joke i was alluding to, no less 01:34:43 Oh, I get it. 01:35:10 * shachaf once punned without noticing it 01:36:35 `le/rn People who've punned without noticing it//People who've punned without noticing it includes: oerjan shachaf 01:43:59 -!- sdhand has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:44:31 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:46:49 -!- sdhand has joined. 01:46:51 -!- Taneb has joined. 01:47:12 -!- sdhand has changed nick to Guest38598. 02:26:56 -!- boily has quit (Quit: VILLAIN CHICKEN). 02:43:22 -!- sleffy has joined. 02:54:47 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:26:14 [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54424&oldid=54423 * Oerjan * (+105) /* Thue-Morse sequence */ Shorter version 03:41:23 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:42:40 Proof by reduction to the wrong problem is pretty funny 04:03:08 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:29:17 -!- imode has joined. 04:36:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 05:17:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:25:20 -!- sprocklem has joined. 05:52:09 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:05:54 -!- imode has joined. 06:19:55 Cale: whoa, tr(ABCDE) = tr(EABCD) etc. is really obvious with string diagrams using cups and caps 06:29:34 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:11:34 -!- moei has joined. 07:17:09 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:25:01 -!- sleffy has joined. 07:25:21 -!- Guest38598 has changed nick to sdhand. 07:25:32 -!- sdhand has quit (Changing host). 07:25:32 -!- sdhand has joined. 08:35:23 -!- sleffy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:37:42 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 08:38:34 -!- moei has joined. 08:53:42 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:08:27 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:52:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:01:18 shachaf: yeah :) 10:09:38 Future oerjan: very nice re: Fueue golf! 10:12:17 (past oerjan?) 10:12:23 (one of the oerjans for sure) 10:19:20 Cale: To which of the things I said? 10:19:51 Taneb: future oerjan. fuerjan. 10:20:16 obviously fuerjan would be the one interested in Fueue 10:20:45 shachaf: That the trace relation is obvious with string diagrams 10:20:53 shachaf: that logic is impecabl 10:20:54 e 10:21:35 Ah. Yes. 10:22:22 Cale: Representable polycategories are too good 10:23:53 Cale: By the way, do you remember that we talked about generalizing eigenvectors/eigenvalues to other categories? 10:24:04 My typing is also impecable 10:24:04 At least I think we did 10:24:35 Anyway there's a clear meaning of scalar multiplication in any monoidal categories, which I didn't realize 10:25:24 Where a scalar is an arrow : I -> I where I is the identity of the tensor product 10:25:38 Sorry, I *am* the identity 10:26:25 Anyway what are some monoidal categories where Home(I,I) isn't trivial? 10:28:03 [[Minim]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54425&oldid=53141 * Thenewcomposer * (+2194) A Simple, Low-Level, Interpreted Language 10:28:31 [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54426&oldid=54425 * Thenewcomposer * (+2) /* Hello World */ 10:28:43 [[Minim]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54427&oldid=54426 * Thenewcomposer * (+2) /* 99 Bottles */ 10:30:56 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54428&oldid=54400 * Thenewcomposer * (+12) /* M */ 10:38:16 Only thing I can think of is the category of modules over some ring 10:39:41 I was trying to generalize from vector spaces, so that's pretty similar 10:40:13 There's the category of abelian groups with Z as the tensor identity I think 10:40:39 I think that's equivalent to modules over Z? 10:41:34 Is there a notion of the "trace" of an abelian group homomorphism? Maybe it gives the rank of the group when applied to the identity or something? 10:41:37 Oh, right. 10:41:59 So that's not anything new 10:42:37 Well, I'd settle for something where Hom(I,I) has more than one element. Even just two. 10:48:03 My gut is telling me that if it has more than one it must necessarily have an infinite number 10:48:19 But my brain isn't convinced 10:48:52 How about Rel? 10:49:20 What's I here? 10:49:43 Yes, Rel is monoidal with the usual Cartesian product 10:49:57 So I is a singleton 10:50:31 So that's two "scalars" 10:50:41 {} and {(X,X)}? 10:51:08 Yep. 10:51:57 Where composition behaves like and, I guess, if the empty set is false 10:52:34 What does scalar multiplication on a relation do? 10:52:47 I'm in bed failing to sleep and typing this on my phone 10:54:22 You've got a (*0) and a (*1) there basically 10:54:25 I guess 1*f is f, and 0*f takes every relation to the empty relation 10:54:29 Right 10:54:34 Not too interesting 10:54:49 But can you define a "trace"? 10:55:11 Does it maybe measure the diagonal? 10:56:18 What properties should the trace have, here? 10:56:25 Not sure 10:56:46 I guess one good property is traveling(AB) = tr(BA) 10:56:49 tr 10:58:28 Actually, I guess Rel has a dagger thing, so you can define trace through that presumably 11:00:17 I think tr(f) is 1 if (x,x) is in f for any x 11:00:40 Which makes sense gives how relation composition works, right? 11:01:14 Say you have f : A -> B and g : C -> D 11:01:39 No 11:01:57 Say you have f : A -> B and g : B -> C 11:02:22 You have be fxg : AxB -> BxC 11:02:47 And if you trace on that B you want to end up with the composition g.f 11:02:57 Which I think you do 11:05:07 -!- Palaver has joined. 11:10:53 -!- Palaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:11:49 Oh, I should've just looked it up 11:12:05 There are at least two possible tensor products and each one of them gets a trace 11:17:14 But you can represent this as vector spaces too apparently 11:25:23 ...is Rel isomorphic to GF(2)-Vect? 11:25:37 ...probably not 11:28:36 -!- SopaXT has joined. 11:29:01 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:29:48 -!- Palaver has joined. 11:30:16 -!- SopaXT has joined. 11:31:09 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:32:17 -!- Palaver has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:37:39 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 11:39:25 So odd: there's wifi on this plane.. 11:40:52 That's just plane weird 11:43:33 ...you know, I think Rel is isomorphic to GF(2)-Vect 11:46:06 Which suggests a trace being hte parity of the diagonal 11:47:47 shachaf: does this sound concievable? 11:49:23 -!- imode has joined. 11:59:25 (trace in general does not have the property tr(AB) = tr(BA)) 12:02:05 -!- sdhand has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:04:29 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:04:59 -!- sdhand has joined. 12:05:22 -!- sdhand has changed nick to Guest56125. 12:07:11 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:14:57 fizzie: heh, all Norwegian flights offer free wifi apparently, it was a nice surprise when I flew a while ago 12:22:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 12:28:53 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:30:35 -!- Guest56125 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:31:27 -!- Taneb has joined. 12:31:30 -!- sdhand has joined. 12:31:53 -!- sdhand has changed nick to Guest93155. 12:32:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:40:04 -!- aloril has joined. 12:40:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:58:28 -!- danil has joined. 13:00:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:01:02 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 13:01:09 -!- danil has joined. 13:01:40 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^ 13:01:40 110101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 ...too much output! 13:01:58 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~a^~*a*~:^):^ 13:01:59 11 ...out of stack! 13:02:10 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*^~*a*~:^):^ 13:02:10 11 ...bad insn! 13:02:37 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*~a~^~*a*~:^):^ 13:02:37 11 ...bad insn! 13:02:56 ^ul (1)S((0))(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^ 13:02:56 10 ...out of stack! 13:03:05 ^ul (1)S(0)(1)(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^ 13:03:05 1 ...bad insn! 13:03:13 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^*a*~:^):^ 13:03:13 110101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101010101 ...too much output! 13:03:25 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*~^*a*~:^):^ 13:03:25 11 ...bad insn! 13:03:32 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^*^*a*~:^):^ 13:03:32 11 ...bad insn! 13:04:18 FireFly: So I've heard, but this is my first time. It's a BA flight, they're slowly rolling it out so you never know if there will be wifi until after takeoff. 13:04:22 (Also it's not free.) 13:04:53 (But I'm trying to work, so I can probably expense it.) 13:10:45 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:13:45 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 13:40:52 -!- sprocklem has joined. 13:45:54 -!- danil has joined. 13:47:44 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 13:49:30 -!- danil has joined. 13:53:54 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 14:04:08 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:06:12 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: [). 14:06:34 -!- sprocklem has joined. 14:11:08 -!- danil has joined. 14:11:45 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 263 seconds). 14:16:34 -!- danil has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:27:22 -!- imode has joined. 14:33:41 -!- Guest93155 has changed nick to sdhand. 14:33:48 -!- sdhand has quit (Changing host). 14:33:48 -!- sdhand has joined. 14:57:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:08:03 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:08:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:18:07 -!- imode has joined. 15:24:50 [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54429&oldid=54409 * Sane theinsane * (+11) /* External sources */ 15:28:38 [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54430&oldid=54429 * Sane theinsane * (+51) /* External sources */ 15:28:56 [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54431&oldid=54430 * Sane theinsane * (-51) /* External sources */ 15:33:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:38:11 [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54432&oldid=54360 * Singingbanana * (+27) 15:40:50 [[Haddock]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54433&oldid=54432 * Singingbanana * (+8) 15:41:31 [[Hatemath]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54434&oldid=54431 * Sane theinsane * (+1) /* Examples */ 15:42:38 -!- xkapastel has joined. 15:46:06 [[User:Sane theinsane]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54435 * Sane theinsane * (+197) Created page with "== Myself == Hi I am Saketh. I am a python programmer that likes to make esoteric languages.
== The langs I have made == I am the creator of hatemath and LML(it's made..." 15:54:12 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:44:35 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 17:37:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:38:04 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:38:05 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host). 17:38:05 -!- sparr has joined. 18:02:23 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 18:15:51 I will be transporting this computer for repair today, so the server will be unavailable during that time. Is there any considerations that should be made when transporting it? 18:17:46 Taneb: I think it's not GF(2) but a ring where 1+1=1 18:18:16 Trace doesn't in general have that property? When doesn't it? 18:18:26 Do you know anything about considerations when transporting a computer? 18:18:46 I mean for endomorphisms A,B 18:19:08 -!- zzo38 has quit (Quit: This computer will be repaired and may be restored in up to 48 hours.). 18:19:47 @tell zzo38 Remove the disk first? 18:19:48 Consider it noted. 18:20:01 I'm afraid that computer is now being transported inconsiderately. :/ 18:21:43 zzo38 did not leave us much time for consideration 18:21:48 fungot: How do you like to be transported? 18:21:49 fizzie: if you had to choose one above the yellow block device, and talk fnord over it, and apply on an arbitrarily long integer math program somewhere that uses the list of constants is smaller in overall volume. 18:22:54 Didn't zzo38 live somewhere in Canada? Wonder if I'm near that computer. 18:23:23 I believe zzo38 lives *at* canada 18:30:42 -!- erkin has joined. 18:55:49 -!- danil has joined. 18:56:11 ^ul (1)S((0)(1))(~:^:S*a~^*^*a*~:^):^ 18:56:12 11 ...bad insn! 18:56:59 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 18:58:16 -!- augur has joined. 18:59:02 -!- danil has joined. 19:02:05 <\oren\_> AAAAAAAAAAAA stupid global variable initialization order 19:02:27 Are they initialized before smart global variables? 19:02:54 <\oren\_> shachaf: apparently not 19:03:23 <\oren\_> specificly, for some reason a global std::string gets compiled into CODE not data 19:05:43 Hmm? 19:06:48 <\oren\_> shachaf: well it's a const std::string. I think it should be compiled into data representing the string. but instead code gets generated which allocates and fills the string up 19:07:43 How would you make that work in C++? 19:08:10 -!- imode has joined. 19:08:14 I thought you meant that «std::string s = "blah";» would somehow put "blah" into the code section. 19:09:20 <\oren\_> it would somehow put {5,"blah"} or hoever the string is represented after initialization, into the code section. because it's a const 19:10:01 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 19:10:05 <\oren\_> the same thing happens to const int i = 5; 19:10:28 But std::sring is just a class. 19:12:09 -!- danil has joined. 19:12:28 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 19:15:12 <\oren\_> not sure why that matters? 19:16:07 I mean, are you saying the compiler should special-case this class, or that any string class should be able to do this? 19:17:34 <\oren\_> any class, ideally 19:18:48 -!- danil has joined. 19:21:13 By having const std::string not copy its argument in this context or something like that? 19:22:19 <\oren\_> yeah. it shoudl just compile to the memory layout of a fully initialized std::string, in read-only memory 19:22:30 <\oren\_> becuase it's const 19:22:40 I know what you want it to do. But how should it achieve it? 19:23:17 <\oren\_> well it already knows how to run arbitratry code at compile time, so jsut run the initializer at compile time 19:23:31 std::string, even const std::string, allocates memory 19:23:52 <\oren\_> and when it allocates memory, allocate it from the code section 19:24:21 How do you make that work? 19:24:26 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 19:25:41 <\oren\_> when new is called during compile-time, you special case that to allocate from the code section instead of the heap 19:26:07 <\oren\_> new and new[] are already builtin 19:30:18 Would you be okay with just a const std::string_view? AIUI, it's a literal type (has a constexpr constructor), so maybe it handles like that already. 19:30:53 Oh, string_view would be the best C++ answer to this of course. 19:31:30 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1). 19:34:49 People have also done all kinds of workarounds using facilities that actually exist in C++, like https://github.com/akrzemi1/static_string 19:39:11 <\oren\_> hooray, this time it DIDNT crash before the start of main() 19:50:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:52:59 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 19:56:17 fizzie: Sure, if you use a separate class that's for this purpose. 19:56:38 I guess maybe std::string could do something different in the const constexpr case? 19:58:04 -!- augur has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:00:32 -!- augur has joined. 20:04:49 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:27:31 -!- lldd has joined. 20:29:34 -!- danil has joined. 20:30:00 [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54436&oldid=54330 * DMC * (+2) 20:30:03 -!- sprocklem has joined. 20:30:16 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 20:31:28 [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54437&oldid=54436 * DMC * (-2) /* Description */ 20:35:27 Taneb: See http://www.inf.u-szeged.hu/actacybernetica/edb/vol23n1/pdf/actacyb_23_1_2017_18.pdf 20:35:58 Which is about a different monoidal category but mentions that one too. 20:44:39 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:49:17 boily: yes, totally true. There was some algebraic topology result that Kozlov claimed without proof in an introductory paper, spending only a few lines to even state it, and we really wanted it to be true. At first we thought it was a mistake, then after thinking about the whole paper for over a month with my advisor, we figured that it was indeed 20:49:17 a trivial result that Kozlov could have seen as so obvious that he didn't include a proof. 20:49:37 I'm not sure it was actually Kozlov, may have been some other mathematician. 20:51:16 Oh, this started from a quote with the other meaning of "trivial". 20:53:07 -!- danil has joined. 20:54:00 -!- sleffy has joined. 20:54:44 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 20:55:56 fizzie: for a string_view it can be done, yes, and there are very likely two interfaces that do that, both just calling the constructor with a string literal (since then the string_view will point into that literal, and the literal will likely be in a mapped read-only section of the exe), or using a certain user-defined literal that later versions 20:55:56 of the standard library provide. 20:57:34 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:58:00 And yes, I think you usually can't do it for a std::string, because (except possibly for a short string) that simply assumes that the contents is stored in an array allocated with the allocator (by the default new function in an ordinary string) and will try to free it if you destroy the string. And even a const string will typically be destroyed i 20:58:00 n C++. 21:06:46 -!- boily has joined. 21:18:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:18:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 21:18:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:05:52 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:24:03 helloily! 22:43:14 do you guys know the hex game? 22:49:03 Do you mean the one where you make a path from one side of the board to the other? 22:51:47 yes! 22:52:42 you know that the game isn't over yet, and red makes a move 22:53:02 QUINTHELLOPIA! 22:53:11 -!- lldd has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:53:12 is there a fast way to tell if this move wins? 23:14:40 boily: did you get your registration in? 23:14:57 also we should game a game 23:16:15 I tried to, but it bugged :/ 23:16:22 like, broken error messages and shit. 23:16:33 trying again. 23:17:08 shit. closed. 23:22:08 izabera: You could keep track of which sides of the board each stone is connected to, and propagate it as stones are added 23:22:26 izabera: and then you only need to check the neighbours of newly added stones 23:22:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:23:14 that's a really good idea! 23:24:56 But note that the naive way of keeping track of that can involve updating a lot of stones in a single move. 23:25:20 The fancy algorithm for it is a union-find thing. 23:35:05 I must say I didn't expect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoidal_category to be protected. 23:40:10 yeah i assume it closed within an hour of opening on the 10th 23:40:29 when should we game 23:40:46 Do you know whether there's an efficient online algorithm for strongly connected components in a directed graph? 23:41:49 no 23:43:16 seems difficult 23:43:44 wait 23:43:52 what exactly is streaming? 23:44:01 nodes or arcs? 23:44:50 I guess arcs? 23:44:53 Like in union-find. 23:45:30 i mean i guess the obvious thing wouldn't be too inefficient 23:45:47 What's the obvious thing? 23:49:00 quintopia: weekend of the... 23:49:09 * boily does hard mental arithmetic 23:49:36 7-8 April I can game. 23:59:38 -!- wob_jonas has joined.