←2018-03-21 2018-03-22 2018-03-23→ ↑2018 ↑all
00:01:01 <quintopia> yeah i probs can then
00:01:07 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that sounds like something that probably exists, at least if you specify the problem precisely. the input is streaming arcs, but what is the output? is the input also streaming queries, mixed with the arcs, like for union-find? you should search the internet for something like this, and if you can't find it, ask on https://cstheory.stack
00:01:07 <wob_jonas> exchange.com/
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00:01:40 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that sounds like something that probably exists, at least if you specify the problem precisely. the input is streaming arcs, but what is the output? is the input also streaming queries, mixed with the arcs, like for union-find? you should search the internet for something like this, and if you can't find it, ask on https://cstheory.stack
00:01:40 <wob_jonas> exchange.com/
00:02:12 <quintopia> shachaf: to collapse nodes into components as they become strongly connected
00:02:29 <quintopia> if arcs cant be deleted i mean
00:04:12 <shachaf> Well, that means adding one edge can take time linear in the number of nodes.
00:04:22 <wob_jonas> And of course you should check TAOCP chapter 7.4 if it's released (even in preview form) by the time you need this.
00:05:19 <wob_jonas> Also, wait a moment, I don't think it's in there, but let me quickly check the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book and the ed. Iványi book in case it says something about this.
00:05:40 <wob_jonas> quintopia: have you tried searching the internet? you've given good keywords, like "online" and "streaming" and "strong components"
00:09:51 <wob_jonas> quintopia: I might be missing it, but I don't see this mentioned in the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book. However, it does talk about the union-find algorithm, which is the analog of this for undirected graphs, in ch. 21 of second ed., so you might try to follow the references given at the end of the chapter.
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00:20:57 <wob_jonas> quintopia: try some web searches then
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00:40:20 <wob_jonas> quintopia: a web search gives this article that might answer your question: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-19754-3_20 Luigi Laura; Federico Santaroni, "Computing Strongly Connected Components in the Streaming Model", (2011) In: Marchetti-Spaccamela A., Segal M. (eds) Theory and Practice of Algorithms in (Computer) Systems. Lect
00:40:20 <wob_jonas> ure Notes in Computer Science, vol 6595. Springer, Berlin, Heidelberg
00:40:45 <shachaf> wob_jonas: I was the one asking the question, not quintopia.
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00:42:09 <shachaf> I've tried searching the Internet but I don't think I've found a clear answer.
00:42:50 <shachaf> The problem with SCCs is that a single edge can collapse n SCCs into one. Whereas a single undirected edge will only collapse two CCs into one.
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00:44:26 <wob_jonas> shachaf: well yes, so that only works if you count the runtime in an amortized way, in which case you pre-pay for collapsing any components when you create them, but you might not want that
00:44:41 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure what your requirements are
00:45:04 <shachaf> I was wanting an API like union-find
00:45:49 <wob_jonas> shachaf: right, but is it fine if it's fast only in an amortized way? the undirected union-find is already fast only in that case I think
00:46:39 <shachaf> I'd like to know what the possibilities are.
00:46:58 <shachaf> I've wondered about this for a while. Whatever specific use case I had I've already forgotten about.
00:48:40 <wob_jonas> You can find part of the above article at https://books.google.hu/books?id=tuBCHZQMLC8C&lpg=PP2&ots=481X0N2bbp&lr&hl=hu&pg=PA193
00:50:00 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't see that reference.
00:53:48 <wob_jonas> And you can't expect anything faster than for the undirected version, because you can get the undirected version as a special case of the digraph version
00:54:00 <shachaf> Of course.
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01:08:33 <wob_jonas> helloerjan
01:09:04 <oerjan> hellonas
01:09:57 <moony> hellOEbonjoRbonJorholAN
01:10:28 <wob_jonas> oerjan: perhaps you can help with shachaf's algorithms question
01:12:43 * oerjan is scared of shachaf's questions lately
01:13:04 <oerjan> they tend to be about category wedge linear stuff i don't really know.
01:13:08 <moony> oerjan, want to debug opengl instead?
01:13:19 <moony> :D
01:13:29 <wob_jonas> oerjan: this one isn't, it's just plain algorithm theory
01:13:36 <moony> (on that note, opengl is driving me insane at the moment)
01:13:37 <oerjan> fortunately i don't know opengl at all, so i can easily excuse myself.
01:13:41 <wob_jonas> but I have an algebraic topology question if that helps
01:13:48 <oerjan> erm
01:14:03 <oerjan> maybe if it's simple enough.
01:14:36 <oerjan> i did once read enough to understand brouwer's theorem, but that was more than 15 years ago
01:14:58 <oerjan> *jordan-brouwer
01:15:38 <oerjan> although presumably brouwer's open mapping theorem too
01:16:10 <shachaf> hi oerjan
01:16:16 <oerjan> (the one that implies that R^m is not actually homeomorphic to R^n, which is nice to know.)
01:16:23 <oerjan> (m /= n)
01:16:29 <shachaf> p. sure you know more about wedge linear stuff than i do hth
01:16:51 <wob_jonas> oerjan: oh yeah, I know about that one
01:17:01 <oerjan> shachaf: don't really bet on it
01:17:11 <wob_jonas> there's a little written about it in my conference slides, although you won't find a proof there
01:17:58 <shachaf> wob_jonas: What are some clever algorithms I don't know about?
01:18:17 <shachaf> Or anyone else
01:18:22 <shachaf> That's probably an easier question
01:18:41 <wob_jonas> oerjan: Jiří Matoušek has a definitive book on it by the way, and it's well-written
01:19:50 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I'm tired, so I can only give a meta-answer to that: read Knuth's TAOCP; the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book; and the ed. Iványi book, they have lots of algorithms, and I'm quite sure there are so many you don't know of them that you can find one you don't know by choosing randomly and retrying
01:20:26 <shachaf> They have lots of algorithms, but how many are clever?
01:21:00 <wob_jonas> oh, you want specifically clever ones?
01:21:11 <wob_jonas> I think there was a question on MathOverflow or Cstheory SE asking for those
01:22:25 <wob_jonas> shachaf: https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/q/189/8067
01:26:56 <boily> mboonysoir, bonsϿirjan.
01:27:26 <wob_jonas> helloily
01:29:00 <boily> wobon_jonasoir.
01:31:35 <oerjan> bhelloily.
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01:40:01 <boily> fungot: nostril.
01:40:01 <fungot> boily: i could say " the"
01:40:11 <boily> fungot: die bart, die.
01:40:11 <fungot> boily: that's the difference, as i'm sure you have a wacom tablet thingy. turns out it was too easy
01:40:24 <boily> fungot: my bro has one; should I borrow it?
01:40:24 <fungot> boily: there are _way_ too many things about their performance too.
01:41:23 <shachaf> That has some good answers
01:41:41 <shachaf> But I'm irritated to have clicked a stackoverflow referral link
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01:52:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: you know those are insecure and of an obvious format, right? you can just remove the user id from the end and get a valid link, with the id of the question or answer before it
01:53:07 <shachaf> I know, that's what I do when I'm at my computer
01:53:33 <shachaf> But my phone IRC client doesn't have an easy way to copy a link without opening it in a browser
01:54:06 <wob_jonas> shachaf: also the whole system changed at some point about a year ago, since then referral links with a referrer within SE still count, so now I get ten times more referrals, mostly from internal links in comments and answers
01:54:34 <wob_jonas> there was a question about this with two different proposed explanations for why it's changed
02:00:48 <wob_jonas> I've even put referral links in some data.stackexchange.com queries, like http://data.stackexchange.com/scifi/query/648267/list-bounties . That site has two shortcut ways to create link to questions or answers, but it doesn't automatically produce referral links because the login system isn't connected to the SE logins, so it doesn't know which use
02:00:48 <wob_jonas> r to use.
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02:18:12 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hakr14 * New user account
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02:24:24 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54438&oldid=54418 * Hakr14 * (+362) /* Introductions */
02:26:22 <esowiki> [[User:Hakr14]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54439 * Hakr14 * (+131) Created page with "Not the best, but there's worse. I'm making an esolang! If I ever finish the interpreter I'll make a page for it and link it here."
02:31:10 <oerjan> funny, i'm modifying the underload reduction to fueue in order to remove a "shortcut" that wraps data around the queue, and none of the first three commands got longer
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02:49:08 <oerjan> hmph but the composition needs complete redoing.
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07:41:15 <seal67> Hello
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07:46:13 <esowiki> [[`LML]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=54440 * Sane theinsane * (+2130) Created page with "== ABOUT `LML == `LML pronounced as 'elemel' is an esoteric programming language made by Saketh Suresh in 2018.The language uses 7 commands. == HOW IT WORKS == `LML works wit..."
07:46:48 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54441&oldid=54428 * Sane theinsane * (+11) /* Non-alphabetic */
07:47:52 <esowiki> [[User:Sane theinsane]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54442&oldid=54435 * Sane theinsane * (-32)
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10:26:17 <Taneb> shachaf: trace for matrices is the sum of the diagonal, right?
10:27:06 <Taneb> Oh, I was thinking of a different property
10:27:30 <Taneb> My brain somehow managed to consistently go tr(AB) = tr(A)tr(B)
10:27:46 <izabera> Taneb: why are you closing your local maplin :(
10:28:01 <Taneb> izabera: we're closing all maplins
10:28:03 <Taneb> It has been decreed
10:28:19 <izabera> undecree it
10:28:52 <Taneb> It is Too Late
10:29:08 <Taneb> (they went into administration last month)
10:31:58 <Taneb> shachaf: also, I don't think there is a ring with two elements where 1+1=1, as then there's no subtraction
10:32:12 <Taneb> It'd be a rig, though (one of those many fun less than a ring acronyms)
10:32:46 <esowiki> [[`LML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54443&oldid=54440 * Sane theinsane * (+26)
10:33:02 <esowiki> [[`LML]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54444&oldid=54443 * Sane theinsane * (+0)
10:33:08 <Taneb> (these are also called semirings I think)
10:34:24 <esowiki> [[`LML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54445&oldid=54444 * Sane theinsane * (+7)
10:34:54 <esowiki> [[`LML]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54446&oldid=54445 * Sane theinsane * (+6)
10:41:09 <esowiki> [[User:Sane theinsane]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54447&oldid=54442 * Sane theinsane * (+8)
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15:01:47 * ais523_ feels an urge to apologise to their hygrometer
15:02:24 <APic> 😸
15:03:03 <ais523_> I spilled water on it, which I imagine is one of the worst things you can do to a hygrometer
15:03:27 <ais523_> after wiping it off, though, it seems to be more under control
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15:05:13 <wob_jonas> NOOOOO!
15:05:25 <ais523_> hmm, that works in context :-)
15:06:19 <wob_jonas> I'll no longer be able to just search for "pool" in rules text in magiccards.info to find cards that produce mana and almost nothing else (Omnath is one of the exceptions)
15:06:23 <APic> lol
15:06:27 <APic> Epic Fail
15:06:28 <wob_jonas> hi, ais523
15:06:38 <wob_jonas> I'm reading the M:tG announcements
15:06:56 <ais523_> wob_jonas: "add" is still likely to work
15:07:11 <ais523_> that word is rarely used in other contexts
15:07:27 <wob_jonas> ais523: the problem is that "add" occurs inside other words as an infix
15:07:35 <ais523_> at least they didn't get rid of the legend rule, that'd have broken the setup for my M:tG waterfall model
15:07:47 <ais523_> wob_jonas: "add " then?
15:07:51 <ais523_> or even "add {"
15:07:53 <alercah> link?
15:08:03 <wob_jonas> that's why I said in magiccards.info . in a local search, I can use regexen or whatever
15:08:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't think that works, some abilities say like "add X green mana"
15:08:19 <ais523_> alercah: to the rules updates? it was on dailymtg.com yesterday
15:08:21 <izabera> now we need to have a serious discussion
15:08:28 <izabera> about the plural of regex and unix
15:08:33 <ais523_> wob_jonas: also scryfall can regex Oracle text
15:08:37 <izabera> regexen unices?
15:08:42 <izabera> regexes unixes?
15:08:43 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name calciform pool
15:08:51 <ais523_> "unixen" was historically used but mostly as a joke
15:08:58 <wob_jonas> alercah: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/dominaria-frame-template-and-rules-changes-2018-03-21
15:09:02 <ais523_> I've never seen anyone use "regices" but I kind-of like it
15:09:23 <wob_jonas> izabera: and you want to interrupt our non-serious discussion with a serious discussion? do you even know this channel?
15:09:31 <izabera> regices is obviously the plural of regice https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Regice_(Pok%C3%A9mon)
15:09:32 <ais523_> (technically speaking, though, "regex" is an abbreviation for "regular expression", so "regexes" would be correct; the "ex" isn't a suffix but a prefix)
15:09:32 <wob_jonas> it's "regexes" by the way
15:09:34 <HackEgo> Calciform Pools \ Land \ {T}: Add {C} to your mana pool. \ {1}, {T}: Put a storage counter on Calciform Pools. \ {1}, Remove X storage counters from Calciform Pools: Add X mana in any combination of {W} and/or {U} to your mana pool. \ TSP-U
15:09:45 <ais523_> izabera: Pokémon names pluralise to themselves, all of them do
15:09:53 <wob_jonas> we can also discuss "regex" versus "regexp" versus "regular expression" versus "rational expression"
15:10:06 <izabera> ais523_: now that's just a made up rule
15:10:13 <ais523_> this is probably because of a decision made by the localisers early on; Japanese doesn't use plurals so the game's code didn't have any pluralisation handling
15:10:42 <ais523_> and so I'm guessing the localisers decided that all Pokémon names would self-pluralise so that they didn't have to try to handle that case using awkward phrasing
15:10:51 <wob_jonas> ais523: also other forms of plurals would take up more space in the precious small display
15:11:08 <izabera> there's hardly any time in the games where plural would make sense
15:11:15 <wob_jonas> I mean, they even have these strange characters in the font that represent multiple letters
15:11:20 <wob_jonas> on the game boy game that is
15:11:28 <wob_jonas> izabera: yes, that too
15:11:29 <ais523_> wob_jonas: have you seen some of the ridiculous phrasing that the games use to avoid having to say plurals?
15:11:42 <ais523_> and "a/an" prefixes, which are also a problem?
15:11:46 <ais523_> "You found one POTION!"
15:11:47 <wob_jonas> sadly it's not so in M:tG. M:tG is full of cards saying "all elves you control"
15:11:49 <ais523_> "POTION! You found two!"
15:12:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: hehe
15:12:20 <wob_jonas> no, I haven't actually played the game
15:12:20 <izabera> step 1: disallow receiving multiple potions at once
15:12:32 <izabera> did i just fix all the i18n problems?
15:12:39 <wob_jonas> I think it wasn't popular here because the young kids who played game boy didn't speak enough english or japanese back then
15:13:04 <wob_jonas> izabera: what if you want to buy or sell them in the store?
15:13:04 <ais523_> izabera: I doubt it
15:13:15 <ais523_> even as late as gen 5, the version released in the UK had some interesting localisation problems
15:13:20 <ais523_> e.g. asking whether we preferred football or soccer
15:13:26 <izabera> wob_jonas: selling more items in a single setting in blasphemy
15:13:37 <Taneb> ais523_: I hope the options there were "YES" and "NO"
15:13:43 <Taneb> (I skipped 5th gen)
15:14:02 <izabera> ais523_: and do you play football or soccer?
15:14:13 <ais523_> izabera: no
15:14:25 <izabera> well that settles it
15:14:25 <ais523_> Taneb: sadly not
15:14:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: wait, football appears in pokemon?
15:14:40 <izabera> no, but soccer does
15:14:46 <ais523_> wob_jonas: lots of real world things appear in Pokémon
15:15:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: lots of real world things, sure
15:15:01 <Taneb> Like bicycles!
15:15:02 <izabera> like candies and shrooms
15:15:06 <wob_jonas> yeah, bicycles
15:15:13 <izabera> and pokemarts
15:15:18 <ais523_> in gen 5 they have sports arenas where people play different sports each day, you don't actually get to watch though
15:15:21 <Taneb> izabera: just like in real life, eating rare candy makes you stronger
15:15:26 <wob_jonas> but football? is that in a video game, or a TCG, or in the anime, or something else?
15:15:34 <ais523_> it's mostly an excuse for recurring battles which you play against the spectators
15:15:43 <ais523_> wob_jonas: it's a football stadium containing football players
15:15:48 <ais523_> but they're not actually playing football
15:15:54 <ais523_> just running around and occasionally challenging you to battles
15:16:17 <izabera> is gen 5 the one with garbagemon?
15:16:34 <wob_jonas> ah, so you meet other trainers who challenge you saying "I don't like football, while all the people are watching the superbowl final, let's spend time more constructively"?
15:16:42 <Taneb> I haven't played much of Gen 6 either...
15:16:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: so it's the video game?
15:16:49 <ais523_> izabera: Trubbish? yes
15:16:58 <wob_jonas> or... um... a video game?
15:17:12 <izabera> i meant garbodor but anyway
15:17:43 <wob_jonas> wow
15:17:49 <wob_jonas> all these card wording stranges will seem so strange to me
15:17:54 <APic> 😸
15:18:04 <wob_jonas> and I guess backwards too, the old wordings will seem strange to new players
15:18:11 <ais523_> wob_jonas: Pokémon was originally a video game
15:18:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but you're talking about gen 5, that's no longer "originally"
15:18:43 <ais523_> then they made an anime of the video game, a video game of the anime, a trading card game of the game and/or anime (possbily both merged), and a video game of the trading card game
15:18:51 <ais523_> and a number of spinoff video games too
15:19:39 <ais523_> originally the Pokémon universe featured non-Pokémon animals in addition to the Pokémon, maybe it still does
15:19:48 <wob_jonas> a video game of the anime too? I heard of the video game of the tcg
15:19:59 <ais523_> Pokémon Yellow: Special Pikachu Edition
15:20:09 <ais523_> it's basically the original games with the plot edited to match that of the anime
15:20:14 <wob_jonas> I see
15:20:50 <wob_jonas> NOOOO!
15:20:57 <wob_jonas> they're changing Lightning Bolt's text too?
15:21:10 <ais523_> "Deal 3 damage to any target" is shorter than the original
15:21:16 <ais523_> or, actually
15:21:18 <ais523_> probably is the original
15:21:26 <ais523_> it was oracled to something else for ages
15:21:29 <Taneb> Is it semantically equivalent to the previous text
15:21:30 <ais523_> `card-by-name Lightning Bolt
15:21:31 <HackEgo> Lightning Bolt \ R \ Instant \ Lightning Bolt deals 3 damage to target creature or player. \ A-C, B-C, U-C, RV-C, 4E-C, M10-C, M11-C, MM2-U, E01-U, MED-C, PD2-C
15:21:34 <ais523_> Taneb: no
15:21:44 <ais523_> they're changing the old text to mean something else
15:21:53 <ais523_> so they're errata-ing it to new text that matches its old functionality
15:21:58 <Taneb> Well, that just seems rude
15:22:09 <wob_jonas> they're errataing to approximate its old functionality
15:22:12 <wob_jonas> there's certainly no match
15:22:18 <ais523_> however, the original text from Alpha is, IIRC, closer to the newest text than the text it's had for most of its life
15:22:38 <ais523_> I'm at work, can someone look up what the printed text is on Alpha lightning bolt?
15:22:44 <wob_jonas> a moment
15:22:50 <ais523_> wob_jonas: OK, it can't hit hexproof planeswalkers now, that is indeed a change
15:22:57 <ais523_> (but it can hit planeswalkers controlled by hexproof players)
15:23:04 <ais523_> (which probably comes up more often)
15:23:05 <wob_jonas> "Lightning Bolt does 3 damage to one target"
15:23:20 <ais523_> oh, so very close to the new wording
15:23:29 <ais523_> the only change is "any" → "one", I think?
15:23:37 <ais523_> oh, and "does" → "deals"
15:23:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: I wonder what Benevolent Unicorn's new text will be
15:23:52 <ais523_> `card-by-name Benevolent Unicorn
15:23:53 <HackEgo> Benevolent Unicorn \ 1W \ Creature -- Unicorn \ 1/2 \ If a spell would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals that much damage minus 1 to that creature or player instead. \ MI-C
15:24:00 <ais523_> wob_jonas: I believe it won't be changed
15:24:21 <ais523_> they gave algorithms for translating old card wording, because there will be so many printed cards with the old wording
15:24:26 <wob_jonas> and there's all those damage redirctor things, some of which like Pariah care about damage to players
15:24:40 <ais523_> and it's likely to be important for players to know what they do without checking Oracle
15:24:53 <ais523_> so the algorithms are being applied consistently to all but one card
15:24:57 <ais523_> `card-by-name Vial Smasher the Fierce
15:24:58 <HackEgo> Vial Smasher the Fierce \ 1BR \ Legendary Creature -- Goblin Berserker \ 2/3 \ Whenever you cast your first spell each turn, Vial Smasher the Fierce deals damage equal to that spell's converted mana cost to an opponent chosen at random. \ Partner (You can have two commanders if both have partner.) \ C16-M
15:25:26 <wob_jonas> Hmm, they never printed Lava Axe with the rules text centered and no flavor text?
15:25:42 <ais523_> (they haven't stated what's different about Vial Smasher, but the leading theory is that "opponent" is being changed to "opponent or planeswalker controlled by an opponent" even though the algorithm would say to leave it alone)
15:25:56 <wob_jonas> Lightning bolt does have such a printing though, and that will probably be impossible in the future
15:26:00 <ais523_> wob_jonas: probably because unlike most of the centred-text cards, which tend to be quite powerful
15:26:02 <wob_jonas> no wait
15:26:04 <wob_jonas> it will be possible
15:26:09 <ais523_> Lava Axe is actually a really bad card
15:26:45 <ais523_> e.g. there's a card that can do 6 damage to a player for 2RR but it has alternative modes too
15:26:47 <wob_jonas> possible
15:26:58 <wob_jonas> hmm
15:27:34 <wob_jonas> powerful in limited or in constructed?
15:27:50 <ais523_> it's probably better in limited but I suspect it's bad in both
15:28:06 <ais523_> the problem being that by the time you've reached 5 mana, you have better things to do than 5 damage
15:28:33 <ais523_> unless the opponent is on 5 life or less, and even then the only real advantage of lava axe is that it has fewer spells that stop it than most finishers do
15:29:52 <ais523_> `card-by-name glorybringer
15:29:53 <HackEgo> Glorybringer \ 3RR \ Creature -- Dragon \ 4/4 \ Flying, haste \ You may exert Glorybringer as it attacks. When you do, it deals 4 damage to target non-Dragon creature an opponent controls. (An exerted creature won't untap during your next untap step.) \ AKH-R
15:30:04 <ais523_> that's an example of a 5-mana red finisher that's commonly used in Constructed
15:30:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: nah, that's not why I asked. I was wondering if some three-mana spot removal spell ever got that treatment, like Expunge but without a "can't be regenerated" rider
15:30:10 <wob_jonas> but probably no
15:30:14 <wob_jonas> anyway, I think you're right
15:30:44 <ais523_> it can /almost/ Lava Axe someone (4 damage rather than 5, assuming they don't have a flying/reaching blocker), but it does a lot of other things too
15:30:50 <wob_jonas> cards that got that treatment are Giant Growth and Cancel, cards that are cheap in money but relatively powerful and go into many decks
15:34:08 <wob_jonas> and yeah, Lightning Bolt
15:34:33 <ais523_> actually they need two flying/reaching blockers unless one of them has hexproof, protection from red, or 5+ toughness
15:34:39 <ais523_> or is a dragon
15:35:08 <ais523_> anyway, I've pretty much planned out how to write up this M:tG waterfall model
15:35:23 <ais523_> I just need the time and concentration to actually do it
15:35:31 <wob_jonas> oh wait
15:35:33 <wob_jonas> I have an exception
15:35:34 <ais523_> I'm going to write a series of articles that can be read in either order
15:35:36 <wob_jonas> Murder
15:35:48 <wob_jonas> Murder was printed with rules text centered and no flavor text (and not in Portal)
15:35:50 <ais523_> in one direction you get the explanations first and see how it's used in practice later
15:35:56 <wob_jonas> so it must be the power in Limited that counts
15:36:05 <wob_jonas> Murder isn't good in Constructed, right?
15:36:08 <ais523_> in the other direction it starts with the deck and you have no idea where it's going
15:36:16 <ais523_> wob_jonas: it is but it's normally outclassed
15:36:21 <ais523_> `card-by-name Hero's Downfall
15:36:22 <HackEgo> Hero's Downfall \ 1BB \ Instant \ Destroy target creature or planeswalker. \ THS-R
15:36:57 <ais523_> people will play Murder if there's nothing better in the format, but normally there's either a Murder-with-upside (like Hero's Downfall), or a cheaper-Murder-with-downside-that-rarely-comes-up
15:37:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the casual environment we play, three-mana kill spells like that are rarely played, because there are so many good two-mana and one-mana spot removal for black, even if they're slightly less versatile than Murder
15:37:29 <ais523_> yes
15:37:44 <ais523_> `card-by-name Dismember
15:37:45 <HackEgo> Dismember \ 1(b/p)(b/p) \ Instant \ ({(b/p)} can be paid with either {B} or 2 life.) \ Target creature gets -5/-5 until end of turn. \ NPH-U, MM2-U
15:38:07 <ais523_> that's probably the closest equivalent that's played in Modern
15:38:20 <ais523_> the odds that you're up against something with 6 toughness are not high
15:38:52 <ais523_> and being able to trade life for mana on it makes it more useful than Murder is in the early game
15:39:07 <wob_jonas> although some three-mana ones get played for some advantage they offer: Eyeblight's Ending for searching with Elvish Harbinger and triggering Lys Alana; Hideous End for the extra damage
15:39:29 <wob_jonas> oh, Dismember
15:40:04 <wob_jonas> and yes, kill spells limited by toughness or mana cost or color or excluding some creatures are still useful
15:41:31 <ais523_> `card-by-name Fatal Push
15:41:31 <HackEgo> Fatal Push \ B \ Instant \ Destroy target creature if it has converted mana cost 2 or less. \ Revolt -- Destroy that creature if it has converted mana cost 4 or less instead if a permanent you controlled left the battlefield this turn. \ AER-U
15:41:55 <ais523_> probably the best-known kill spell at the moment
15:42:01 <wob_jonas> on the other hand, there's some nostalgy involved because bad three-mana kill spells were among the first cards I bought: Seal of Doom and Expunge
15:42:10 <ais523_> because Revolt is really easy to trigger in eternal formats like Modern and Casual
15:46:53 <wob_jonas> these days I mostly play the black D-cards for destroy and discard: Disfigure, Deathmark, Darkblust, Duress, Doom Blade, ... um, Soul Reap? I should buy Dead Weight to continue this theme
15:47:30 <wob_jonas> (There's technically Distress and Douse in Gloom too, but I don't play them anymore.)
15:49:05 <wob_jonas> Let's see. They used "Murder" and "Assassinate" and "Slaughter". That leaves "Kill", "Slay", "Destroy" as names reserved for future iconic updates.
15:50:01 <wob_jonas> Pity "Remove" was used up for some portal junk
15:51:54 <wob_jonas> Will Harm's Way be able to redirect to a planeswalker now?
15:53:09 <wob_jonas> So there'll be a rule now that says what "any target" means?
15:53:21 <wob_jonas> or only "any target" when it's about dealing damage to it?
15:53:37 <wob_jonas> the former, that's what the article says
15:57:32 <wob_jonas> <annoyed> Why can't ANY of these several websites cataloging M:tG cards use a GOOD algorithm for what printing to select by default when you search for a card name?
15:58:33 <wob_jonas> I hate how they always show the ugly or fancy cards from all sorts of special low count reprints instead of the more common printings in expert expansions or core sets.
16:00:50 <wob_jonas> Ok, anyway the article says wait for the rules update bulletin to find out the specifics. I guess that's fair
16:01:47 <wob_jonas> "they" instead of "he or she" will also take some time getting used to. I wonder if there's any card where "they" or "them" will cause confusion or ambiguity because it could refer to something else.
16:02:20 <wob_jonas> That probably won't happen much, because in those cases "he or she" is already not likely to be used, "that player" getting used instead
16:03:47 <wob_jonas> And many times it's clear from context that a player is meant anyway
16:06:40 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Iwamori of the Open Fist
16:06:43 <HackEgo> Iwamori of the Open Fist \ 2GG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Monk \ 5/5 \ Trample \ When Iwamori of the Open Fist enters the battlefield, each opponent may put a legendary creature card from his or her hand onto the battlefield. \ BOK-R
16:06:44 <wob_jonas> an open fist is basically a hand, right?
16:15:13 <wob_jonas> Hmm... Llanowar Elves now has a very short rules text. Not as short as Raging Goblin though. Oh, that reminds me! Dark Ritual also has the centered rules text no flavor treatment. Imagine that saying just "Add {B}{B}{B}." in the center. That would be short. Probably won't happen though, because it's not likely to get reprinted much.
16:15:27 <wob_jonas> Hmm.
16:15:45 <wob_jonas> Well, it did get some reprints, including in Masters 25, so maybe it could happen.
16:16:19 <wob_jonas> It just has to be a set that's not legal in Modern, I guess.
16:17:20 <wob_jonas> Do creatures ever get the center no flavor text treatment?
16:22:48 <wob_jonas> There are several creatures whose rules text is just "Flying" or "Reach" or "Banding" or "Vigilance" or "Flanking", at least one each with just "Haste" or "Flash". (You can tell my age from how I'm not saying "Infect","Menace", "Prowess", "Skulk".)
16:23:17 <wob_jonas> The shortest keyword ability that can stand alone is probably "Fear" though. What creature has only "Fear" and no other ability?
16:25:42 <wob_jonas> Gluttonous Zombie, Prickly Boggart, Razortooth Rats, Severed Legion. No more I think.
16:25:46 <ais523_> centred-no-flavour is only for instants and sorceries, I think
16:26:01 <ais523_> you could make an argument that the textless vanilla creatures from Future Sight count …
16:26:11 <wob_jonas> An unfortunate interaction of the lack of "new world order" in the past and the lack of fear in the present
16:27:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: actually, old basic lands have the old rules text printed centered and no flavor text
16:27:31 <wob_jonas> I should've realized, I have some of those
16:43:09 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Oran-Rief Invoker
16:43:10 <HackEgo> Oran-Rief Invoker \ 1G \ Creature -- Human Shaman \ 2/2 \ {8}: Oran-Rief Invoker gets +5/+5 and gains trample until end of turn. \ BFZ-C, DDR-C
16:43:22 <wob_jonas> they printed an improved Stonewood Invoker because the original was weak? interesting
16:52:38 <wob_jonas> wtf. Legendary gets a rules change AGAIN?
16:52:55 <wob_jonas> can't they stop that already?
16:53:00 <ais523_> what did they change?
16:53:01 <alercah> the legend rule didn't change
16:53:11 <ais523_> if you're talking about the legendary sorcery thing
16:53:13 <wob_jonas> admittedly this one is fully backwards compatible
16:53:17 <wob_jonas> yes, legendary sorceries
16:53:19 <ais523_> that seems to be a keyword mechanic that was made into a supertype for some bizarre reason
16:53:44 <ais523_> "you can't cast this spell unless you control a legendary creature or planeswalker" is /not/ what it does on any other card type
16:54:01 <ais523_> incidentally, there's a lot of confusion about that rule
16:54:18 <ais523_> because nobody seems sure whether it associates as "(legendary creature) or planeswalker" or "legendary (creature or planeswalker)"
16:54:38 <alercah> almost doesn't matter at all
16:54:45 <wob_jonas> It doesn't impact existing games because I believe there's an invariant that being (sorcery or instant) is a property that can never change on an object, in any direction
16:55:01 <alercah> manifest can change it
16:55:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: hehe
16:55:37 <ais523_> alercah: is that even the same object as the sorcery, though?
16:55:41 <ais523_> it becomes a new object when it changes zones
16:55:52 <ais523_> and is effectively a face-down creature that can't be turned face-up
16:55:58 <alercah> ah, fair
16:56:09 <wob_jonas> And there's no way with existing cards to make a sorcery legendary, not even with Leyline of Singularity
16:56:27 <wob_jonas> oh...
16:56:29 <wob_jonas> manifest
16:56:33 <wob_jonas> I forgot about that
16:56:34 <wob_jonas> damn it
16:56:43 <wob_jonas> I was thinking of that morph land from time spiral block
16:56:43 <alercah> ais523_: also the release notes are clear that it is legendary (creature or planeswalker)
16:57:23 <wob_jonas> hmm
16:57:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok
16:57:58 <wob_jonas> NOOOOO!
16:58:08 <wob_jonas> I know they hate protection, but did they really need to do this?
16:58:10 <ais523_> wob_jonas: that's like the third time you've done that today
16:58:15 <wob_jonas> (hexproof from black)_
16:58:25 <ais523_> and not a single time has it been because you spilled water on your hygrometer
16:58:28 <wob_jonas> yeah, third
16:59:16 <ais523_> "hexproof from black" is less offensive when you see it as a fixed version of hexproof rather than a fixed version of protection
16:59:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: I've destroyed my previous keyboard by spilling water on it. that's not supposed to permanently destroy electronics, but it somehow did. I'm careful with drinks in this room since then.
16:59:50 <ais523_> I just felt sorry for the hygrometer; unlike basically any other piece of electronic equipment, it's aware that it's wet
16:59:57 <wob_jonas> I still get water on stuff in the bedroom and kitchen I guess, and outdoors
17:00:08 <wob_jonas> I've got water on non-waterproof objects outdoors in the rain
17:00:29 <wob_jonas> rain sensors in modern cars are also aware
17:00:59 <wob_jonas> but yes, I can understand why you feel sorry for it
17:01:01 <ais523_> hmm, I guess those are likely to be moisture sensors rather than hygrometers? the two are pretty similar in concept, anyway
17:01:17 <ais523_> at least the hygrometer can tell me it's wet so that I can dry it off :-)
17:01:35 <ais523_> (I don't feel the cold, which can be quite dangerous in this weather as being unable to percieve it doesn't actually make me immune to its effects)
17:01:40 <wob_jonas> no, I think they're just cameras that look for water droplets, and they don't even get wet because they're behind a windshield
17:01:52 <ais523_> (so I've started carrying a thermometer around, but this one came with a clock and a hygrometer and a moonphase display attached to it)
17:02:12 <wob_jonas> I should buy two thermometers here (an indoor and an outdoor one)
17:02:32 <wob_jonas> I can feel cold, but still, I need more precise measurements
17:02:37 <ais523_> when I'm indoors, I check the outdoors temperature by using the Internet to connect to a nearby weather station
17:02:44 <ais523_> @metar EGBB
17:02:45 <lambdabot> EGBB 221650Z 23009KT 200V260 9999 OVC030 08/01 Q1014
17:03:16 <wob_jonas> As for hexproof from black, the article explicitly says "A Knight of noble lineage, Knight of Grace harkens back to an earlier era and the hallowed White Knight."
17:03:18 <ais523_> *perceive
17:03:34 <wob_jonas> How should I not consider it as a ruined protection ability after that?
17:04:05 <ais523_> clearly WOTC are treating it as one based on that
17:04:16 <wob_jonas> on that card at least
17:04:24 <wob_jonas> there might be other cards where it's not so
17:04:24 <ais523_> there are quite a few cases where the difference doesn't matter
17:04:45 <ais523_> e.g. both versions of Emrakul have a "protection from …" which could equivalently be "hexproof from …"
17:05:02 <ais523_> although they won't be errata'd because a few cards check for creatures with protection abilities specifically
17:05:13 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Display of Dominance
17:05:14 <HackEgo> Display of Dominance \ 1G \ Instant \ Choose one -- \ Destroy target blue or black noncreature permanent. \ Permanents you control can't be the targets of blue or black spells your opponents control this turn. \ DTK-U
17:05:16 <ais523_> or hmm, not quite
17:05:22 <ais523_> nontargeting instants that deal damage would work differently
17:05:33 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Karplusan Strider
17:05:35 <HackEgo> Karplusan Strider \ 3G \ Creature -- Yeti \ 3/4 \ Karplusan Strider can't be the target of blue or black spells. \ CSP-U, 10E-U, MM2-U
17:05:41 <ais523_> I assume some of those exist although I can't think of any offhand, nontargeted damage is normally from sorceries
17:05:46 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Mercenary Informer
17:05:48 <HackEgo> Mercenary Informer \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Rebel Mercenary \ 2/1 \ Mercenary Informer can't be the target of black spells or abilities from black sources. \ {2}{W}: Put target nontoken Mercenary on the bottom of its owner's library. \ PR-R
17:05:50 <wob_jonas> wow, there are a lot of these
17:06:06 <wob_jonas> there's even
17:06:06 <ais523_> wob_jonas: none of those are "hexproof from" though, except possibly Display of Dominance
17:06:08 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Autumn's Veil
17:06:09 <HackEgo> Autumn's Veil \ G \ Instant \ Spells you control can't be countered by blue or black spells this turn, and creatures you control can't be the targets of blue or black spells this turn. \ M11-U, M12-U
17:06:22 <wob_jonas> which is funny because the "blue or black" is almost redundant
17:06:29 -!- lldd has joined.
17:06:35 <wob_jonas> it's rare to get your spells countered by a spell that's not (blue or black)
17:06:36 <ais523_> `card-by-name mana tithe
17:06:36 <HackEgo> Mana Tithe \ W \ Instant \ Counter target spell unless its controller pays {1}. \ PLC-C
17:06:42 <wob_jonas> yes, I know
17:06:44 <wob_jonas> there's a few of them
17:07:40 <wob_jonas> Lapse of Certainty and more
17:08:52 * ais523_ idly wonders what the simplest hypothetical Magic card would be that's Turing-complete by itself
17:09:29 <ais523_> err, that uses only existing black-bordered mechanics
17:09:36 <wob_jonas> wow, Planar Chaos actually has three, including one that's sort of like a time-shifted Intervene but not quite
17:10:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: by itself? it would either have to have the basic ability from Relentless Rats, or some other strange rule so you can build a deck with it by itself. even Momir Vig Avatar needs basic lands.
17:11:08 <wob_jonas> or would you allow some basic lands with it?
17:11:13 <ais523_> wob_jonas: I mean the only permanents in play are copies of it
17:11:17 <ais523_> when you start the combo
17:11:22 <ais523_> not that it can do the setup by itself
17:11:36 <wob_jonas> oh
17:12:19 <wob_jonas> could you have interesting effects helping the combo that aren't on permanents? like "for the rest of the game" or "until end of turn" effects, or abilities active from the graveyard?
17:13:05 <wob_jonas> with Wizards cards we likely need permanents for TC-ness, but if you want hypothetical cards, we probably don't need any
17:13:10 <ais523_> our current core for the actual computation is rotlung reanimator, noxious ghoul, hungry lynx, and something that gives a static -X/-2 effect (it'd be interesting if this last part could be omitted, it doesn't seem impossible)
17:13:57 <ais523_> and static effects in the graveyard or that aren't attached to anything feels like cheating, unless they edit the text of the permanent (in the style of Artificial Evolution)
17:14:06 <wob_jonas> right, and some of those can be swapped out for other cards, although I haven't seen anyone find a combo without Rotlung Reanimator yet
17:14:41 <wob_jonas> in fact, looking for alternate potential methods that don't use Rotlung Reanimator might be worthy in itself, just to see that the TC-ness isn't fragile and doesn't depend on one stupid card
17:15:17 <ais523_> you basically need a way to replace a creature when it dies
17:15:45 <wob_jonas> sort of... but in some good enough way
17:15:49 <ais523_> Rotlung Reanimator with both creature types equal is all that's needed for my M:tG-implemented TC language (I think Alex Churchill's uses both creature types)
17:15:53 <wob_jonas> it must be at least repeatable
17:16:08 <ais523_> `card-by-name Young Wolf
17:16:09 <HackEgo> Young Wolf \ G \ Creature -- Wolf \ 1/1 \ Undying (When this creature dies, if it had no +1/+1 counters on it, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control with a +1/+1 counter on it.) \ DKA-C
17:16:15 <ais523_> `card-by-name Solemnity
17:16:16 <HackEgo> Solemnity \ 2W \ Enchantment \ Players can't get counters. \ Counters can't be put on artifacts, creatures, enchantments, or lands. \ HOU-R
17:16:21 <wob_jonas> for power reasons, most such reanimation cards try to be not repeatable, so you can't just infinitely replace your creatures
17:16:35 <ais523_> but I'm not sure there are enough different creature types among Undying and Persist creatures to make the construction viable
17:16:40 <wob_jonas> Rotlung Reanimator tries to avoid that by the different creature types
17:16:44 <ais523_> as they'll forget the text edits when they die
17:17:00 <wob_jonas> hmm
17:17:22 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
17:17:23 <HackEgo> Mikaeus, the Unhallowed \ 3BBB \ Legendary Creature -- Zombie Cleric \ 5/5 \ Intimidate (This creature can't be blocked except by artifact creatures and/or creatures that share a color with it.) \ Whenever a Human deals damage to you, destroy it. \ Other non-Human creatures you control get +1/+1 and have undying. (When a creature with undying dies,
17:17:29 <wob_jonas> how about that?
17:17:31 <ais523_> clearly we'll need a conspiracy that gives things persist
17:17:39 <ais523_> oh yes, Mikaeus would work
17:20:32 <wob_jonas> I wonder if there's some way to mandatorily make creatures become a copy of some other creature.
17:20:37 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Infinite Reflection
17:20:39 <HackEgo> Infinite Reflection \ 5U \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ When Infinite Reflection enters the battlefield attached to a creature, each other nontoken creature you control becomes a copy of that creature. \ Nontoken creatures you control enter the battlefield as a copy of enchanted creature. \ AVR-R, C14-R
17:21:07 <wob_jonas> it's probably either impossible, or at least harder than the other routes
17:23:00 -!- boily has joined.
17:23:34 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Mass
17:23:36 <HackEgo> Mass Appeal \ 2U \ Sorcery \ Draw a card for each Human you control. \ AVR-U \ \ Mass Calcify \ 5WW \ Sorcery \ Destroy all nonwhite creatures. \ SHM-R, M15-R \ \ Mass Hysteria \ R \ Enchantment \ All creatures have haste. \ MRD-R \ \ Mass Mutiny \ 3RR \ Sorcery \ For each opponent, gain control of up to one target creature that player controls
17:23:42 <wob_jonas> no
17:23:45 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name Permeating Mass
17:23:46 <HackEgo> Permeating Mass \ G \ Creature -- Spirit \ 1/3 \ Whenever Permeating Mass deals combat damage to a creature, that creature becomes a copy of Permeating Mass. \ EMN-R
17:23:55 <wob_jonas> that seems more controllable
17:24:15 <ais523_> uncontrollable effects are probably fine, it's not much different from writing in INTERCAL
17:24:30 <wob_jonas> yeah
17:25:35 <wob_jonas> only without such useful statements as array element assignment and indexed return
17:26:11 <ais523_> what language are you trying to implement? still The Waterfall Model?
17:26:20 <wob_jonas> I don't know
17:26:22 <ais523_> I've been wondering about implementing the I/D machine in Magic but I can't see a good way to emulate the RAM
17:26:34 <wob_jonas> I'm just looking at what's available at first
17:26:48 <wob_jonas> um
17:27:19 <wob_jonas> that's a huge leap. you could go to something in between, as in, something with a stack or queue of symbols so there's no exponential slowdown, but without a full RAM
17:27:38 <wob_jonas> you know, like StackFlow
17:27:49 <ais523_> I didn't mean in terms of speed
17:27:54 <ais523_> just wondering what data storages were possible
17:27:58 <wob_jonas> yeah
17:28:14 <wob_jonas> I know the I/D machine is simple to define, but it doesn't sound like simple to implement
17:29:43 <wob_jonas> similarly I wouldn't try to store conses (recursive data types that aren't just a list but can branch out as any binary tree) in M:tG like you'd need to emulate unlambda or underload
17:30:57 <wob_jonas> Consumer society, that esolang I've been promising to create for a while, it's also one that's easy to define for humans, but it's specifically not easy to implement. It's probably harder to implement than even unlambda or underload or anything like that.
17:31:47 <ais523_> that seems interesting
17:32:07 <ais523_> that said, it surely can't be as hard as Tableaux :-P
17:32:17 <wob_jonas> yes, it's not that hard
17:32:24 <wob_jonas> it's not even as hard as perl
17:32:37 <ais523_> even though Tableaux's only primitives are zero, increment, dereference pointer
17:32:43 <ais523_> (it's what they're pointing into that's hard to implement)
17:32:45 <ais523_> oh, and equals
17:33:17 <wob_jonas> I'm going to write a reference interpreter for it that implements it (up to some resource limits).
17:33:58 <wob_jonas> I mean not Tableaux, but Consumer society
17:34:24 <ais523_> fun name, anyway
17:34:36 <wob_jonas> it's a provisional name, but yes
17:34:59 <wob_jonas> I decided it's not very spoiler, you can't guess the main trick of the language from it, so I can reveal it
17:35:32 <ais523_> hmm, languages with spoilers
17:35:36 <ais523_> I haven't made one of those since Incident
17:35:47 <ais523_> which has a spoiler-free version of the semantics in addition to my guide talking about the language
17:35:54 <wob_jonas> That language also has very few primitives, and one of them is like the parenthesis in Underload, grouping some code to a single block you can manipulate as a whole but will later be opened and ran
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17:36:28 <wob_jonas> and the language can also be considered to have two stacks, a data stack and a call stack, like underload
17:36:36 <wob_jonas> or considered as a term-rewriting language
17:36:56 <wob_jonas> and these two stacks provide for turing-completeness
17:37:00 <ais523_> also like Underload
17:37:01 <wob_jonas> but that's about where the similarity ends
17:37:04 <ais523_> I'd better go, anyway
17:37:40 <wob_jonas> there's still the main twist, which is something that is used in some languages other than underload, but the innovation here is using only that and nothing else to make a full languae
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17:38:41 <wob_jonas> bye
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17:56:23 <wob_jonas> Which one is harder in the real world? https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/whistle or https://www.xkcd.com/666/ ? And would you do the former with some hidden electronics?
18:04:32 <Slereah> well there are no silent hammers
18:05:08 <wob_jonas> Slereah: maybe no, but there are some methods to make hammering more silent.
18:06:27 <boily> I think the SMBC is easier.
18:34:53 <esowiki> [[Fueue]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54448&oldid=54424 * Oerjan * (+797) /* Computational class */ New and improved. Now with parallelism!
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19:45:06 <wob_jonas> these password requirements are horrible!
19:45:21 <wob_jonas> (on ugyfelkapu.gov.hu )
19:46:30 <wob_jonas> I can't choose a proper password because it has ridiculous and undescribe requirements
19:46:55 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54449&oldid=54341 * DMC * (-105)
19:49:05 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54450&oldid=54449 * DMC * (+56)
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22:12:32 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54451&oldid=54450 * DMC * (-77)
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