←2018-03-30 2018-03-31 2018-04-01→ ↑2018 ↑all
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04:27:24 <zzo38> I thought of some new idea of Magic: the Gathering cards to make up, such as: Protection from players having at least one card in their hand
04:50:49 <zzo38> I also thought some cards could have "protection from cards"
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10:38:57 <danil> hi
10:44:22 <esowiki> [[User:Singingbanana]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54591&oldid=54466 * Singingbanana * (+173)
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11:14:36 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54592&oldid=54588 * Hq9++fan * (+296)
11:15:46 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54593&oldid=53383 * Hq9++fan * (+41) /* A rude behavior */ new section
11:18:02 <esowiki> [[Text]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54594&oldid=54587 * Hq9++fan * (+31) /* Quine */
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12:04:37 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54595&oldid=54592 * ZM * (+84) template protection
12:11:26 <esowiki> [[User:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54596&oldid=54376 * ZM * (-12)
12:28:09 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54597&oldid=34815 * Hq9++fan * (-4) remove awful doublespaces
12:28:33 <esowiki> [[99 bottles of beer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54598&oldid=54597 * Hq9++fan * (-1) /* Purpose */ remove unnecessary code
12:34:43 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54599&oldid=46288 * Hq9++fan * (-5920) remove vandalism
12:36:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54600&oldid=53667 * Hq9++fan * (+120)
12:38:47 <esowiki> [[Minimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54601&oldid=19981 * Hq9++fan * (+28)
12:47:53 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54602&oldid=54599 * ZM * (+5920) Undo revision 54599 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]) that wasn't vandalism, see [[/~]]
12:56:39 <esowiki> [[Minimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54603&oldid=54601 * ZM * (+113) Just expansion
12:58:44 <esowiki> [[Talk:APLWSI]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54604&oldid=54600 * ZM * (+125)
13:08:20 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54605&oldid=54583 * Ais523 * (-1046182) set top revision for revision delete
13:09:13 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Hq9++fan]]": housekeeping: old-fashioned revision delete of several very large revisions which are making life much harder on the server for no good reason, and contain no useful content
13:10:08 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * restored "[[User:Hq9++fan]]": restore the revisions of this page other than the ones that are intentionally inflated with large amounts of whitespace
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13:11:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54606&oldid=54540 * Ais523 * (+1235) /* includeonly */ new section
13:12:24 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54607&oldid=54593 * Ais523 * (-41) Undo revision 54593 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): please don't transclude user talk pages on other user talk pages
13:14:54 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:ZM]]": housekeeping: old-fashioned revision delete of very large revisions which are making life much harder on the server for no good reason, and contain no useful content
13:17:57 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] restore * Ais523 * restored "[[User talk:ZM]]": restore the revisions of this page other than the ones that are intentionally inflated with large amounts of whitespace
13:20:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/10]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/10/diff/prev/60]])
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13:27:16 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/11]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/11/diff/prev/61]])
13:28:41 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54608&oldid=54595 * Ais523 * (+703) this page probably shouldn't need protection from transclusion
13:33:39 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54609&oldid=54608 * ZM * (+53)
13:34:21 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54610&oldid=54516 * Ais523 * (+231) Undo revision 54516 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): Unicode super/subscripts should not be used to spell words
13:40:51 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54611&oldid=54523 * Ais523 * (+6) Undo revision 54523 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): please don't revert-war
13:43:40 <esowiki> [[H9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54612&oldid=54513 * Ais523 * (-41) Undo revision 54513 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): listing what is a quine is more useful than listing what isn't a quine
13:44:17 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54613&oldid=54482 * Ais523 * (+18) Undo revision 54482 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): please stop making trivial changes to other people's comments without their permission
13:46:19 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54614&oldid=54458 * Ais523 * (+9) Undo revision 54458 by [[Special:Contributions/Hq9++fan|Hq9++fan]] ([[User talk:Hq9++fan|talk]]): the Unicode version is actually more "fake", <sub> is valid HTML and should be used for longer strings as it's more readable/nestable
13:48:20 <esowiki> [[Esoteric programming language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54615&oldid=54464 * Ais523 * (-18) Wikipedia links are best done as interwiki rather than external
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13:51:04 <ais523> fizzie: as the only remaining active uninvolved admin, do you think something needs to be done about Hq9++fan?
13:51:11 <ais523> the majority of their edits are actively counterproductive
13:52:26 <ais523> I ended up adding /two/ abuse filter entries today to try to cut down on their worse abuses
13:52:58 <ais523> I'd add one to stop them editing Unicode into pages too (Unicode has its place but Hq9++fan doesn't know what it is…), but couldn't figure out a way to do it which didn't have a massive false positive rate
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14:16:11 <zzo38> Is it possible to add a filter so that non-ASCII characters cannot be entered directly but must use the HTML & codes instead?
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14:18:04 <ais523> zzo38: yes, but that's probably counterproductive
14:18:12 <ais523> as the literal Unicode is normally more readable than the HTML-escaped verison
14:18:55 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54616&oldid=54607 * Hq9++fan * (+1575) 1. what does transclude mean?, 2. you are not allowed to delete warnings from your talk page. If you want to make personal test or sandbox edits, go to [[User:Ais523|your room]].
14:18:57 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54617&oldid=54609 * Hq9++fan * (+126)
14:19:39 <zzo38> Yes, although it does encourage use of ASCII when possible, and avoids homoglyph problems with the wiki markup
14:20:18 <zzo38> But then you can also still use non-ASCII characters when you need to.
14:20:25 <ais523> <Hq9++fan> 2. you are not allowed to delete warnings from your talk page.
14:20:36 <ais523> (for reference: the user in question transcluded a different user's user talk page onto mine)
14:21:30 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54618&oldid=54610 * Hq9++fan * (-231) but at least they're better than fake superscripts and subscripts
14:22:29 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54619&oldid=54616 * Ais523 * (+197) /* A rude behavior */ {{unsigned}}, context
14:22:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54620&oldid=54619 * Ais523 * (+122) /* A rude behavior */ sign the context so that people know it was me who added it
14:23:27 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54621&oldid=54614 * Hq9++fan * (-9) it is kind-of fake because small capitals were used as subscripts, but at least the font designer can customize them, unlike the actual fake superscripts and subscripts, which the font designer has no control over.
14:25:33 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54622&oldid=54611 * Hq9++fan * (-6) no
14:26:52 <esowiki> [[User talk:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54623&oldid=54606 * Ais523 * (+796) /* includeonly */ r to question asked in edit summary on my talk page
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14:29:50 <esowiki> [[User talk:ZM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54624&oldid=54617 * ZM * (+44) heh
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14:32:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/abusefilter]] modify * Ais523 * modified [[Special:AbuseFilter/12]] ([[Special:AbuseFilter/history/12/diff/prev/62]])
14:32:47 <ais523> hmm, could someone who isn't currently in a revert war with Hq9++fan revert their latest Unicodification edits (assuming that they agree with me that they're a bad idea)?
14:33:08 <ais523> I've just edited the abuse filter to prevent them using them altogether, which will have some false positives but is at least less drastic than a block
14:33:14 <ais523> (although I'm really tempted to block round about now…)
14:33:19 <zzo38> I do agree with you that they are a bad idea.
14:34:01 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54625&oldid=54618 * Zzo38 * (+231) No they aren't
14:34:44 <ais523> thanks
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14:36:23 * APic somehow likes Unicodification-Edits in general
14:36:31 <APic> No Idea how sensible they are in the current Case
14:36:39 <APic> No Time to look at them — need to play NetHack 😉
14:37:07 <ais523> well, https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=%E2%84%92&diff=prev&oldid=54621 and https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Apple3.14&diff=prev&oldid=54622 are Hq9++fan's two most recent
14:37:24 <ais523> one is an appropriate use of Unicode but is editing someone else's talk page comment
14:38:06 <zzo38> I think that usually you should use ASCII characters. Sometimes there is the use to use non-ASCII Unicode characters, but you should use ASCII if the use of ASCII would be appropriate, which it often is.
14:38:08 <ais523> the other is inappropriate due to trying to use Unicode for formatting purposes
14:38:46 <ais523> `unidecode ʟ
14:38:59 <ais523> I can't even figure out which block that one's from…
14:39:38 <ais523> hmm, HackEgo isn't here
14:40:40 <zzo38> Filter 10 seems there may be a possible problem in some cases.
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14:41:05 * APic seems to like Hq9++fan's Version better. But i am very bad at Mathematics. I do not even know LaTeX. My Brother, who studied Electrotechnics/Informationtechnics probably would agree with Doctor ais523 😉
14:41:27 <ais523> APic: the most obvious problem is what happens if you have a subscript on a subscript
14:41:49 * APic sees
14:41:57 <APic> Thanks for pointing that one out
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14:42:08 <ais523> ooh, it isn't even subscript, it's smallcaps
14:42:14 <ais523> (the ʟ, I mean)
14:42:14 <APic> Uh oh
14:42:23 <ais523> so there's no particular reason why it'd line up with the subscript ₍
14:42:28 <APic> *nod*
14:42:32 <ais523> presumably it just happens to in Hq9++fan's font
14:42:33 <APic> Hail Eris!
14:42:50 <ais523> also, it's intended only for use in IPA (i.e. phonetic spelling)
14:43:09 <ais523> hi ZM
14:43:29 <APic> Okay, more than enough Reasons to also dislike Hq9++fan's Version. Thanks.
14:43:58 <APic> It would probably help to include those Reasons in the Edit-History
14:44:36 <ais523> zzo38: right, I put two safeguards in because of that: a) if the page is enlarged over multiple edits (e.g. due to people adding hello world programs), the limit is larger; b) if the page needs to be large an admin can do the edit to make it large and then there'll be no size restriction unless it shrinks smaller
14:45:02 <ais523> but people adding megabyte-scale junk to pages is unfair on our server hosts
14:45:18 <ais523> (and makes the history page slow to load)
14:45:30 <ZM> http://qaz.wtf/u/convert.cgi?text=How+well+does+this+work%3Fm > look at Superscript (pseudoalphabet)
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14:46:02 <singingbanana> People, what is going on?
14:46:27 <ais523> <qaz.wtf> What makes an alphabet "psuedo"? One or more of the letters transliterated has a different meaning or source than intended.
14:46:38 <ais523> singingbanana: Hq9++fan is making some very dubious changes to the wiki
14:46:45 <zzo38> Yes, but maybe you should add a check that the latest previous size other than sysops is less than 200000, so that if you remove stuff, you can add it again. (I don't know if it already does that or not, or how to do the MediaWiki abuse filtering anyways)
14:46:52 <ais523> zzo38: I did
14:46:56 <ais523> oh, I see
14:47:03 <ais523> I can't check back in history with abuse filter syntax
14:47:13 <ais523> hopefully that'll be a rare enough case that asking an admin for help will do
14:47:19 <ais523> and if it does end up as a common problem we can disable the filter
14:47:23 <singingbanana> Oh oh... The wiki is meant for esolangs not spam... I think.
14:47:31 <ais523> singingbanana: I agree with tht
14:47:32 <ais523> *that
14:47:37 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54626&oldid=54625 * Hq9++fan * (-334) they are ! ! !
14:48:28 <ais523> haha, did Hq9++fan seriously just remove the formatting from the page due to the ban I added on using Unicode superscripts/subscripts?
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14:48:53 <singingbanana> what page?
14:48:58 <ais523> the one esowiki just linked
14:49:17 <singingbanana> oh!
14:49:52 <ais523> (the ban applies to Hq9++fan specifically; I have no issue with people using them appropriately and have even done so myself, but repeatedly proving that you don't know what you're doing with a feature is often reason to have your right to use it revoked)
14:50:38 <ais523> I guess we have to wait for fizzie to turn up to actually block Hq9++fan, you're not supposed to block users you're in an argument with (which makes sense, it's easy for admins to become biased/non-objective in such cases)
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14:51:30 <singingbanana> I just had a look. What did he dubiously change? BTW. You ask him to stop as a final warning...
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14:51:52 <ais523> singingbanana: replaced all the <sub> and <sup> tags with _ and ^
14:52:11 <ais523> Hq9++fan seems to have a vendetta against <sub> and <sup> for some reason
14:52:18 <ais523> which is a really bizarre thing to have a vendetta against
14:52:40 <singingbanana> Why do you have <sup.and <sub> in a BCT article?
14:52:49 <singingbanana> *<sup>
14:52:52 <ais523> it's a computational model, i.e. was written by mathematicians
14:53:09 <ais523> so the notation uses, e.g., subscripts for array indexing
14:53:31 <ais523> likewise it uses superscript for string repetition (which is standard in maths because string concatenation uses the same syntax as multiplication)
14:53:39 <singingbanana> Thanks. OK,then HQ9++fan is wrecking havoc!!!
14:53:57 <ais523> definitely
14:54:00 <APic> *nod*
14:54:19 <ais523> and has used the old tactic of "intentionally aggravate all the admins you can find, so that they look biased when they ban you"
14:54:26 <ais523> which is why I'm waiting on fizzie
14:55:17 <singingbanana> I think let ignore HQ9++fan.he'll stop.
14:56:25 <ais523> the problem is that the pages get damaged in the process
14:56:52 <ais523> I'd hoped they'd stop when I added the block on the specific pattern edits they were doing
14:57:16 <ais523> at one point they added almost a megabyte of whitespace to their userpage (apparently as testing), then used it to attack other people's talk pages
14:57:51 <singingbanana> Right... ban? BTW Im going to the airport soon.
14:58:31 <singingbanana> Also, I found a nice artice on Lambda the ultimate called Resource Polymorphism.
14:58:38 <singingbanana> *article
14:58:50 <ais523> hmm, that sounds interesting
14:59:07 <zzo38> If fizzie bans them then we can revert the pages at that time, instead of right now
14:59:24 <zzo38> Since otherwise it won't help
14:59:45 <zzo38> Do you know their telephone number to call fizzie?
15:00:04 <ais523> it's not urgent
15:00:09 <ais523> this has been going for a few days already
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15:02:03 <singingbanana> there is only one fortress from this problem. fungot
15:02:04 <fungot`> singingbanana: you can play with sisc, dominique said that it remains to be seen
15:02:27 <singingbanana> fungot
15:02:27 <fungot`> singingbanana: i'd allow for every possible set of features; and a set of fnord pairs, opcode ( 1-6) and argument.
15:02:41 <int-e> what do Hq9++fan even mean by "fake superscripts"... this is proper HTML markup :-/
15:03:41 <ZM> ais523: The reason for that link was that I believe Hq9++fan uses a similar converter; this one calls Superscript a pseudoalphabet because it lacks some characters, so it pulls some from other places, which explains that weird character
15:03:43 <int-e> Oh I guess they mean that the markup is lost in cut&paste.
15:04:04 <ais523> ZM: right
15:04:21 <ais523> int-e: I think they just really dislike HTML subscripts and superscripts for some reason
15:04:30 <ZM> Also this train has patchy wifi
15:04:36 <ais523> the markup isn't lost in copy, it can be lost on paste with some programs, depending on whether they understand HTML pasting
15:05:08 <int-e> ais523: well it is lost when copying from Firefox to a terminal, for example: (bk + 1)(bk-1 + 1)...(b0 + 1)
15:05:33 <int-e> (But I consider that to be a shortcoming of the former, and a minor nuisance at worst.)
15:05:45 <singingbanana> Our community is small. Vandals make it smaller.
15:05:45 <ais523> at least on Windows it's a shortcoming of the latter
15:08:41 <zzo38> Of course you can copy the HTML code if you want to, as well
15:09:55 <singingbanana> HQ9++fan stopped!
15:15:13 <ais523> they've been editing on and off over the last several days
15:15:15 <ais523> (that's why a ban isn't urgent)
15:16:23 <singingbanana> Ok. The ♦/~ page has a reference to a virus site.
15:17:54 <ais523> mediafire isn't exactly a virus site
15:17:58 <ais523> it's a file hosting site
15:18:06 <ais523> that lets arbitrary people host files
15:18:16 <ais523> many people use it to host malicious files, so web filters often block it
15:18:21 <int-e> Oh great. So `links` indicates HTML superscripts using ^ (and subscripts using _), but all the "fance" unicode symbols are displayed as *.
15:18:38 <ais523> it might make sense to ask the uploader to rehost it somewhere more reputable
15:18:49 <ZM> A file named ♦.zip isn't suspicious at all though /s
15:18:51 <int-e> s/fance/fancy/
15:19:04 <singingbanana> I clicked the mediafire button and it exploded into a ton of 'deceptive sites according to firefox.
15:19:19 <ais523> singingbanana: right, there's likely to be a lot of reported malware there
15:19:36 <ais523> so Firefox disallowing connections there by default makes sense
15:19:45 <ais523> and there's a decent chance that the link's expired anyway
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15:20:10 <ais523> perhaps we could ask David.werecat to rehost it somewhere more reputable, like a pastebin site
15:20:31 <singingbanana> Thank you for reassuring me that my computer is not a swarm of trojans
15:21:50 <ais523> well, Firefox won't connect to sites reported to host malware in the first place, so you're probably OK in that respect
15:22:03 <singingbanana> int-e: why did you send a cat program in sed?
15:22:03 <ais523> however, it wouldn't surprise me if infected adverts ended up on that sort of site frequently
15:22:13 <ais523> they often have a large number of adverts mimicking download buttons
15:22:41 <singingbanana> Yes. I did not click it though, as there was no padlock!
15:23:07 <zzo38> Direct download link, which is compatible with curl, is best
15:23:17 <ais523> right
15:23:23 <ais523> sites like mediafire have huge problems making money
15:23:32 <ais523> so they tend to have a very user-hostile user experience
15:23:45 <int-e> singingbanana: I did what?
15:23:50 <ais523> (e.g. making you wait several minutes before the download starts, allowing you to pay them money to make it go faster)
15:24:08 <ais523> also, isn't the cat program in sed the null string?
15:24:19 <singingbanana> int-e: s/fance/fancy in sed mirrors your input.
15:24:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: but he also has a vendetta against double spacing after sentences, and I think fizzie likes single spacing, so he won't block him
15:24:58 <int-e> singingbanana: I had a typo in the message before that.
15:25:02 <zzo38> wob_jonas: I don't really see how that will be relevant?
15:25:13 <singingbanana> int-e: oh. Funny!!
15:25:44 <ais523> wob_jonas: it makes absolutely no difference to the rendered output
15:25:51 <ais523> in wikimarkup
15:26:01 <wob_jonas> true
15:26:03 <ais523> so it's not worth changing either way
15:26:38 <ais523> some programs I use have markup for distinguishing an end-of-sentence full stop from other users of the period character
15:26:52 <ais523> and two-spaces is a common choice of markup for that (although not the only one)
15:28:17 <ais523> if I ever get round to writing my HTML/plaintext polyglot language
15:28:38 <wob_jonas> I'm not *yet* in an edit war with Hq9++fan, but I could change that
15:28:42 <ais523> I will probably insist on two spaces at the end of sentences because it's the least stupid-looking way to make a sentence period different from an abbreviation period
15:29:06 <wob_jonas> after today's edits I might
15:29:32 <singingbanana> I'm thinking there's going to be loads of joke languages uploaded tommorow
15:29:37 <zzo38> int-e: Lynx also displays HTML superscripts with ^ (and uses a different colour than the main text); this page http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+11 is one example; footnotes are designated as ^1 and ^2 and so on, in yellow
15:30:06 <ais523> singingbanana: more likely serious languages disguised as jokes
15:30:09 <ais523> I don't have one planned, btw
15:30:15 <ais523> although I /was/ working on a new esolang recently…
15:30:19 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54627&oldid=54626 * Int-e * (+334) Revert to revision 53709. This is the semantically correct way of indicating superscripts and subscripts in HTML. (And you can even get the TeX-alike output in the links browser.)
15:31:23 <ZM> singingbanana: Oh I have an idea already
15:31:28 <singingbanana> I think there is no more real joke languages left to make. So I'm going to publish a language i was developing for months
15:32:27 <singingbanana> Alfie: the Presumption-based esolang
15:32:56 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54628&oldid=54621 * B jonas * (+9)
15:32:59 <zzo38> (And if you want to complain about typographical errors or anything else in that story, you are free to do so)
15:33:04 <wob_jonas> Ok, let me start that edit war then
15:33:41 <ZM> SuperScript!
15:33:52 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: I don't think that's true. There are still joke languages left to make.
15:34:19 <singingbanana> Yeah... But the Introduction to Esolang design...
15:34:26 <singingbanana> ZM: ho ho ho!
15:37:01 <int-e> . o O ( Welcome to another episode of https://xkcd.com/386/ )
15:39:34 <ZM> This all feels like https://xkcd.com/1974/ as well
15:40:06 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54629&oldid=54552 * B jonas * (-39)
15:40:18 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54630&oldid=54629 * B jonas * (-5)
15:40:32 <int-e> It's kinf of funny how strongly I feel about not calling <sub> and <sup> "fake".
15:40:57 <int-e> fungot`: kinf?
15:40:57 <fungot`> int-e: fixed already. i want to
15:41:54 <singingbanana> fungot: hello! How is your day! Better than mine, ofcourse!
15:41:54 <fungot`> singingbanana: and is more concerned about efficiency than correctness
15:42:04 <ais523> int-e: the ridiculous thing is that the version that was edited /in/ was fake subscript, on one of the pages (literally; it was smallcaps, not subscript)
15:42:17 <ais523> and when I looked closely it actually didn't line up with the subscript next to it
15:43:10 <zzo38> I like what I see of the new "Dominaria" Magic: the Gathering cards except that I hate their use of the phrase "any target" and how they are making legendary sorceries working (and a few things I am neutral about, such as the new legendary card frame). So, I will not use the phrase "any target" on my own custom cards, whether to mean what I want it to mean or what WotC wants it to mean.
15:44:11 <ais523> zzo38: I take it you'd want "any target" to also include at least permanents of any card type?
15:44:11 <wob_jonas> ais523: you know how there are some programmers who use some of these non-ascii symbols when they quote a program from an ordinary ascii programming language (like C or haskell) in an article? like a right arrow instead of -> and similar? and how even Knuth does that?
15:44:17 <ais523> what about other things that can be targeted?
15:44:22 <ais523> wob_jonas: yes
15:44:29 <ais523> although it may be defensible in the case of Haskell and Algol
15:44:39 <zzo38> ais523: I would want "any target" to mean "target player, object, or zone".
15:44:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: when haskellers do that, they represent the ++ infix by two pluses kerned so close together that they overlap. does that have a unicode representation, and if so, can we rename Hq9++fan's username to include that?
15:45:01 <ais523> zzo38: zones generally? or only zones that belong to a player?
15:45:06 <ais523> I can't see much benefit to targeting exile
15:46:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: probably ⧺?
15:46:15 <ais523> "double plus" in Miscellaneous Mathematical Symbols B
15:46:16 <zzo38> Any zone (not that there is usually much point targeting it, but it can be targeted; the rules of the game don't say they can't be targeted, it is just that there aren't any cards that target the exile zone)
15:46:26 <ais523> but the proportions are different
15:46:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how about if you imagine that in "any target" the "target" is a pun between the M:tG technical term and the ordinary meaning of something that's dealt damage. there are already cards where you have to choose any damage source, for preventing or rederecting damage from that source. this time you have to choose any damage target as a target.
15:46:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: perfect!
15:47:07 <zzo38> wob_jonas: That is one possibility, although I would have preferred "target damageable" or something like that
15:47:16 <ais523> wob_jonas: I cheated and used Shapecatcher
15:47:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: do you really want that written on a Lightning Bolt?
15:48:54 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, although there may be another suggestion too; just "any target" doesn't make sense
15:50:40 <ais523> writing on a lightning bolt would be quite hard
15:50:43 <ais523> plasma doesn't hold ink well
15:50:44 <singingbanana> Who is snapecatcher?
15:50:50 <ais523> although it's an interesting concept to imagine
15:50:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't see the problem. we already have restr'ns in the comp rules telling what you can target: in particular a Counterspell can't target itself. I don't see a problem with the comp rules restricting what cards saying "any target" can target.
15:51:03 <ais523> singingbanana: shapecatcher's a website that OCRs unicode (apart from CJK)
15:51:15 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54631&oldid=54605 * B jonas * (+1) replaced fake operator with proper counterpart
15:51:18 <ais523> although you often have to scroll well down the list in order to find the character you're looking for
15:51:37 <zzo38> wob_jonas: The rules work; I didn't say they don't work. I said it doesn't make as much sense as using different phrasing
15:51:47 <ais523> wob_jonas: OK, that edit is probably excessively vindictive
15:51:56 <zzo38> I would also have prefer that if you can cast a card only if you control a legendary creature or planeswalker, to be a keyword ability. (That card can still be legendary as well though)
15:52:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes it is
15:52:09 <ais523> I'm going to revert it
15:52:22 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok. you're an admin, you have to be responsible
15:52:25 <ais523> unless you give me a good reason not to
15:52:47 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54632&oldid=54631 * B jonas * (-1)
15:52:54 <wob_jonas> there, now you don't have to
15:53:11 <ais523> I did but your edit went through first
15:53:19 <ais523> and no-op edits don't leave a history or recent changes entry
15:53:27 <singingbanana> When will the Essies/ Esolang comptetion come back?
15:53:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: I've had enough after the transclusion thing https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Ais523&diff=54593&oldid=53383
15:54:41 <ais523> singingbanana: it was hard enough to get entries / judges the first time
15:55:06 <ais523> and then when CALESYTA disappeared without trace mid-contest, it didn't bode well for the future of esolang competitions
15:55:14 <singingbanana> Oh, I hadnt thought of that side...
15:55:18 <ais523> if someone does want to run one I'd be willing to judge (and/or participate if the deadline is long enough)
15:55:30 <ais523> but I wouldn't be confident in the competition actually succeeding
15:55:43 <ais523> at least some of the CALESYTA esolangs got posted to the wiki
15:55:47 <ais523> so some good came of it
15:55:52 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: if you want to make an esolang, you can just make one without a contest, or make one and make a presentation of it for SigBovik (there was one about Wikiplia)
15:56:09 <ZM> Some contests on StackExchange did succeed though
15:56:22 <singingbanana> SigBovik? I have to go to USA for it!
15:56:36 <ais523> ZM: I hate Stack Exchange so much (the platform)
15:56:41 <ais523> PPCG has a great community
15:56:48 <singingbanana> ais523: Me too
15:56:49 <ais523> but actually using the software that powers it leaves me so depressed
15:56:59 <ZM> Yeah I meant PPCG
15:57:16 <ais523> the voting is completely broken, for example
15:57:19 <zzo38> Another thing about "any target" is that it is different than the normal specification of "target [specification of what it targets]". If for some reason I did want to make an abbreviation for "target player, object, or zone", I would probably write "target anything".
15:57:22 <ais523> and it's demoralising to see good entries end up behind bad ones
15:57:44 <singingbanana> Is it a better Idea to change CALESYTA's tense from is to was?
15:58:10 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: no.
15:58:30 <singingbanana> Why not?
15:59:01 <singingbanana> Oh,it wasnt officialy discharged. My mistake, sorry
15:59:14 -!- ISS has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
15:59:39 <ais523> it just dropped off the internet
15:59:44 <ais523> some time after the submissions were made
16:01:49 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54633&oldid=54496 * B jonas * (+8) and your father smelt of elderberries
16:01:50 <int-e> `unidecode ⧺
16:01:54 <int-e> oh
16:02:16 <singingbanana> What?
16:02:17 <wob_jonas> int-e: http://unicode.scarfboy.com/?s=%E2%A7%BA
16:02:28 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54634&oldid=54627 * Hq9++fan * (-334) but it's unethical
16:03:00 <int-e> okay, can we ban that person already, please
16:03:21 <int-e> this is beyond silly... that particular edit has now gone through three reverts.
16:03:21 <singingbanana> Uh oh...*Dramatic music*
16:03:22 <ais523> I can't see a plausible argument for claiming that ^ is a more ethical way of indicating superscripts than <sup>
16:03:34 <ais523> the "font designers" argument is ridiculous but at least has some internal logic to it
16:03:50 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54635&oldid=54634 * B jonas * (+334)
16:03:56 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54636&oldid=54628 * Hq9++fan * (-27) Undo revision 54628 by [[Special:Contributions/B jonas|B jonas]] ([[User talk:B jonas|talk]])
16:04:18 <zzo38> ais523: Well, use of ^ will work with copying ASCII text, but Lynx will automatically do that when a <sup> command is encountered, so you do not need to do it by yourself
16:04:33 <ais523> I can see arguments for "better" in various senses
16:04:35 <ais523> but "more ethical"?
16:04:38 <int-e> . o O ( I want to revert with message "grow up" )
16:04:49 <int-e> . o O ( But that would be childish... )
16:04:58 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54637&oldid=54622 * B jonas * (+6)
16:05:04 <ais523> if he gets reverted by four different people in 24 hours
16:05:08 <singingbanana> no............................
16:05:10 <ais523> and reverts back each time
16:05:10 <esowiki> [[Unary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54638&oldid=54630 * Hq9++fan * (+29) allow people to see all turing complete languages with a wiki page, in one category. subsetting is better than splitting in this case
16:05:16 <ais523> that hits a hard limit for legal reverting
16:06:08 <esowiki> [[User:Hq9++fan]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54639&oldid=54632 * Hq9++fan * (+4) link to [[HQ9++]]; and don't edit my page, it's mine!
16:06:09 <singingbanana> HQ9++ is against Be bold in editing!
16:06:29 -!- ZM has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:06:35 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54640&oldid=54635 * Hq9++fan * (-334) fix bot edit
16:06:53 <singingbanana> rude...
16:07:20 <ais523> that's four reverts (or effective reverts) in 24 hours on the same page, isn't it?
16:07:25 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54641&oldid=54637 * Hq9++fan * (-11) Undo revision 54637 by [[Special:Contributions/B jonas|B jonas]] ([[User talk:B jonas|talk]])
16:07:29 <ais523> of different users, no less
16:07:38 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54642&oldid=54640 * B jonas * (+334)
16:07:46 <singingbanana> *Tension grows*
16:08:01 <singingbanana> I hope my pages wont be hit...
16:08:14 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: IIRC they were already hit
16:08:21 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54643&oldid=54633 * Hq9++fan * (-10) fix
16:08:34 <wob_jonas> singingbanana: also it's not *your* pages. it's a wiki. the pages are owned collectively by everyone
16:08:36 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:Hq9++fan]] with an expiration time of 1 day and 7 hours (account creation disabled): more than 3 reverts on the same page ([[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]]), of different users, in 24 hours; please don't edit war with people
16:08:49 <singingbanana> wob_jonas: I mean what i made... Sorry...
16:08:58 <ais523> oh, I should probably have turned the autoblocker on too
16:09:13 <ais523> ah no, it is on
16:09:21 <ais523> just the edit summary doesn't say that
16:09:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: this was with underscores and carets
16:09:34 <ais523> wob_jonas: effective reverts still count as reverts
16:09:45 <ais523> it doesn't have to be an 100% exact revert (people game the system like that far too often)
16:09:55 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh, I thought the autoblocker was for non-ascii stuff
16:10:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, I mean autoblocker as in
16:10:11 <esowiki> [[Malbolge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54644&oldid=54643 * Zzo38 * (+10) Fix capitalization, punctuation, superscripts, and ASCII
16:10:14 <ais523> if Hq9++fan tries to create or use a new account, ,that gets banned too
16:10:32 <singingbanana> what if he goes to the library?
16:10:37 <int-e> Is 1 day and 7 hours a good time frame?
16:10:53 <ais523> singingbanana: you can't protect against everything
16:11:03 <ais523> int-e: it's one of the standard block lengths
16:11:14 <singingbanana> ais53: True.
16:11:15 <ais523> and revert-warring bans are never indefinite without more discussion between admins
16:11:42 <int-e> I'm just wondering whether any admin will be around when it expires...
16:11:59 <ais523> "ℒ ‎ (it is kind-of fake because small capitals were used as subscripts, but at least the font designer can customize them, unlike the actual fake superscripts and subscripts, which the font designer has no control over.)"
16:12:11 <ais523> int-e: we can change the length of an existing block
16:12:17 -!- ISS has joined.
16:12:26 <ais523> I just noticed that Hq9++fan knew they weren't even subscript characters and used them anyway!
16:12:33 <ais523> that's got to be outright trolling at this point
16:12:42 <esowiki> [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54645&oldid=54636 * B jonas * (+27)
16:12:46 <ais523> because a font designer wouldn't design them to look good among subscript characters as it's a different character set
16:12:55 <int-e> yeah
16:13:02 <zzo38> Not only did they change a shorter dash to a improper longer one, but also messed up the capitalizaion
16:13:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: sadly I don't think it's trolling
16:13:40 <singingbanana> It aggravated intentionally.
16:13:48 <int-e> Unicode had no business adding superscript and subscript characters... though I guess the harm was already done with ISO 8859-1, and probably even earlier.
16:14:00 <int-e> :P
16:14:11 <ais523>
16:14:18 <int-e> x^2
16:14:23 <ais523> I looked it up (because it's important to be informed in this sort of argument)
16:14:26 -!- ZM has joined.
16:14:30 <ais523> the intention was to make it possible to write mathematical formulas
16:15:02 <wob_jonas> int-e: sure it has. even real typewriters has superscript 2, mostly because of classified ads for apartments with area 40 m**2. we have to encode those somehow.
16:15:05 <zzo38> Unicode doesn't need superscripts/subscripts, although some character sets do need a few
16:15:35 <wob_jonas> but that doesn't mean you have to try to encode all superscripts in formulas with tem.
16:15:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: the typewriters I'm used to, you superscripted a 2 by scrolling the page and writing the 2 on a different place
16:15:45 <ais523> although maybe some newer ones have a physical ² key
16:15:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: it depends on which typewriter. I'm quite sure some do have a true superscript 2.
16:16:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: Well my problem is that Unicode has a strange way of avoiding most, but not all, markup. I don't know what the general rule they're following is, if there is one.
16:16:20 <wob_jonas> ais523: also some had these 1/2 and 1/4 fractions
16:16:29 <ais523> yes, that was more common
16:16:31 <ais523> ½ ¼
16:17:07 <wob_jonas> they even put those in five-bit telex codes with space for only 60 characters or so
16:17:08 <zzo38> PC character set has a superscript 2, as well as some fractions, but that is for the screen layout; for printing you should use the proper typesetting commands to form superscript instead of using special superscript characters.
16:17:10 <wob_jonas> that's so ridiculous
16:17:17 <wob_jonas> had some use in finance or something
16:17:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: I think Baudot might have a ½?
16:17:46 <int-e> But mostly I don't mind because I can avoid using the parts of Unicode that I dislike, most of the time. And sub- and superscripts are harmless compared to the colorful pictorgrams they've added in the past couple of years.
16:17:51 <ais523> apparently not
16:17:52 <wob_jonas> ais523: baudot had like fifty variants depending on the nation and organization. and yes, some of them had
16:17:58 <ais523> at least not in the US-TTY or C-INTERCAL version
16:18:06 <ais523> *CLC-INTERCAL
16:18:08 <int-e> I really can't spell today.
16:18:12 <ais523> but it's believable that some other version has it
16:19:42 <zzo38> I looked, and UK Baudot has a "1/" character.
16:20:06 <zzo38> (The modern international version doesn't)
16:21:09 <wob_jonas> lol https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Apple3.14&diff=54641&oldid=54637
16:21:44 <ais523> can we put the comment back how it was?
16:21:50 <ais523> although that is pretty funny
16:22:02 <ais523> we should respect the author's phrasing for things like talk page comments
16:22:13 <ais523> unless there's a really good reason to change it (e.g. broken file link)
16:22:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure
16:23:06 <esowiki> [[Talk:Apple3.14]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54646&oldid=54641 * B jonas * (+11)
16:23:24 -!- ZM has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:23:44 <esowiki> [[ZTOALC L]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54647&oldid=54585 * Plokmijnuhby * (+293)
16:24:32 <ais523> that's an interesting computational class hypothesis
16:24:38 <ais523> I'm not sure it's wrong, but it'd surprise me if it were right
16:25:13 <esowiki> [[ZTOALC L]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54648&oldid=54647 * Plokmijnuhby * (-294)
16:25:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: you're right, the 1/2 and 1/4 and 3/4 are more frequent than the superscript 2
16:25:44 <wob_jonas> I'm now looking through photos of typewriters to find one with a superscript 2
16:25:50 <zzo38> On typewriters I have seen, I see the fractions more commonly than the superscript 2, also
16:25:56 <ais523> many typewriters didn't have a 0 or 1 key
16:26:04 <ais523> because O and I were considered sufficiently similar
16:26:29 <wob_jonas> I think this one has superscript 2 and 3 => https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Oliveti_MicroPlus.jpg
16:26:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, it was O and l
16:27:02 <wob_jonas> but sometimes people used o and l instead, when the rest of digits were old style jumpy
16:27:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: lowercase digits
16:27:32 <wob_jonas> this one has fractions by the way => https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mesin_Taip.jpg
16:30:04 <int-e> ais523: maybe it was an attempt at inviting a TC proof :P
16:30:26 <ais523> there are a few languages which are obviously primitive recursive
16:30:38 <ais523> but it's a surprising computational class to see in cases when it's not obvious
16:31:01 * ais523 vaguely wonders how powerful a total language it's possible to make, you can do better than primitive recursive
16:31:25 <int-e> This one looks very much Turing-complete, though working out arbitrary enough control flow will probably be messy.
16:31:29 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it's rare. I suspect that one variant of Amycus with some rules removed might be exactly as powerful, but it probably actually isn't.
16:31:30 <ais523> actually, I guess you'd get pretty close using a primitive-recursive-like language that supported ordinals
16:31:56 <ais523> …come to think of it, that's pretty close to an old language idea of mine
16:32:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's language (0)
16:32:10 <ais523> it was called ACK, and had the Ackermann function as its only arithmetic operation
16:32:16 <ais523> also all the commands were control codes
16:32:29 <wob_jonas> no wait
16:32:48 <ais523> but it had a hierarchy of types of variable, you could destroy one to make arbitrarily many variables of a lesser type
16:32:48 <wob_jonas> oh yes it is
16:33:00 <wob_jonas> (0) restricted to any suitable ordinal is still total
16:33:31 <wob_jonas> and if you restrict it to omega, then it describes exactly the primitive recursive functions
16:33:44 <wob_jonas> so it's a possible generalization of primitive recursive programs to a larger total class
16:36:13 <wob_jonas> ais523: is that like a meta-djinn?
16:36:22 <zzo38> Can you make a modern computerized typerwriter with a RS-232 port and telephone line, and you can remove the typefaces to put difference ones if you wish; the included one can be Courier with ASCII (I have read that the post office will scan it better if you use Courier with all uppercase)
16:36:24 <ais523> not sure, I forget what a meta-djinn is
16:36:44 <ais523> hmm, can (0) calculate the TREE function?
16:38:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: a djinn gives you a wish (or three wishes, depending on the variant of the legend, but that's irrelevant). you can wish for almost anything, but you can't wish for more wishes, or for anything related to wishing or wish-granting djinns or wish-granting rings or similar. a meta-djinn gives you a meta-wish. you can meta-wish for wishes, but y
16:38:24 <wob_jonas> ou can't meta-wish for meta-wishes. there's a whole hierarchy of meta**kappa wishes for any ordinal kappa.
16:38:40 <ais523> right
16:38:41 <wob_jonas> the concept was invented by Hofstadter in his book
16:38:52 <wob_jonas> the Gödel Escher Bach one
16:38:53 <ais523> so yes, basically just "given an ordinal, produce a smaller ordinal"
16:39:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: what's the TREE function?
16:39:41 <ais523> wob_jonas: it's a function that grows really really fast
16:39:43 <ais523> let's see…
16:39:51 <wob_jonas> zzo38: stuff about the post office depends on the country and the age
16:39:57 <ais523> basically, the idea is that you have an inclusion among trees for whether one is included within another
16:40:18 <ais523> I forget what operation it is exactly that you use for inclusions but it's something like shrinking an edge
16:40:25 <ais523> also, each vertex of the tree is colored
16:40:48 <ais523> the aim is to find the longest sequence of trees you can, using a given number of colors
16:40:54 <wob_jonas> which leads to stupid order forms trying to apply the US post's conventions to all international mail
16:41:01 <ais523> such that no tree in the sequence is included within an earlier tree
16:41:25 <ais523> also there's a limit on how many vertices you can start with
16:42:04 <ais523> ooh, the rule is that the nth element of the sequence can't have more than n vertices
16:42:08 <wob_jonas> if there's a limit for the number of vertices and the number of colors, then isn't that all primitive recursive and you need only a few levels of exponentiality?
16:42:14 <wob_jonas> oh, that's different
16:42:47 <ais523> anyway, it turns out that you can't make an infinite sequence this way
16:43:01 <ais523> but with a given number of colors, the sequence can be really really long even if the number is quite small
16:43:40 <ais523> even TREE(3) is so large that it's hard to explain just how large it is (Graham's number is pretty much incomparably smaller)
16:44:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: ok
16:46:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you have a link with a precise definition?
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16:47:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: there's one on Wikia but I don't like linking to it
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16:47:44 <wob_jonas> fungot, do you speak Hittite fluently?
16:47:45 <fungot`> wob_jonas: or " god saw the light of jesus, do you like? atlanta, of course, alice is lazy, by the way)
16:47:51 <ais523> oh, here we go, there's one on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal%27s_tree_theorem
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16:54:06 <singingbanana> ^ul (1000000000)S
16:54:06 <fungot`> 1000000000
16:54:20 <singingbanana> ^b ++
16:54:28 <singingbanana> ^bf +++>++
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16:56:18 <ZM> ^ul (:aSS):aSS
16:56:18 <fungot`> (:aSS):aSS
16:56:43 <ZM> ^ul (
16:56:44 <fungot`> ...unterminated (!
16:57:13 <ZM> ^ul)
16:57:38 <ZM> ^ul ())
16:57:38 <fungot`> ...bad insn!
16:58:03 <ZM> fungot, ins?
16:58:03 <fungot`> ZM: itunes/ 4.8 ( macintosh; n; ppc) and at work one day and check how much data are we talking about
16:58:13 <int-e> ZM: instruction?
16:58:13 <ZM> fungot, insn?
16:58:13 <fungot`> ZM: i don't even know
16:58:14 <ais523> ZM: it's an abbreviation for "instruction"
16:58:30 <int-e> @quote fugue
16:58:31 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
16:58:32 <ZM> Ah
16:59:01 <ZM> Ah
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17:08:41 <wob_jonas> wait, really? I've asked questions on #haskell and never noticed that form of an answer
17:09:21 <ais523> it probably only happened once
17:09:30 <ais523> which would be enough to create the quote
17:11:09 <shachaf> It's a joke on the old overused #haskell quote, "where your questions are answered in majestic stereo"
17:11:44 <wob_jonas> oh, that sounds more appropriate
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17:12:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: in English, "prose" means a text that's not in verse form, "prosody" means studying verse form. the two worse are etymologically unrelated, they just got smashed up because English distorts words unrecognizably.
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17:17:24 <singingbanana> A -> input; B > A + 1, C -> Output. What does this output?
17:17:53 <ais523> in what language?
17:18:14 <ais523> and are you sure that the punctuation and case is correct?
17:18:22 <ais523> it reminds me a bit of Prolog but it isn't
17:18:35 <singingbanana> I'm just polling! Its not a real language(yet)
17:20:05 <singingbanana> This system must output a value. A = input, so It cant directly be equal to output. So B is output. This is the axiom of my April Fools language
17:20:29 <ais523> isn't C the output?
17:21:56 <singingbanana> Aha!! Axiom 2) Everything is a variable. What is C? This is a deduction-based system/presumption-based system. (TM of Singingbanana industries)
17:27:16 <singingbanana> (Aka Alfie)
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17:32:47 <wob_jonas> sometimes I wonder about the sci-fi premise where there's a magical replicator machine with two chambers, and on the push of a button it replaces the contents of one chamber with another, but it's balanced, there's an equal probability of copying one way or another, independent of prior events.
17:33:15 <zzo38> I don't know.
17:33:17 <wob_jonas> if it wasn't balanced, then you could use such a machine for a lot of useful purposes
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17:33:48 <wob_jonas> getting rid of all material waste objects you don't need, copying useful material objects, getting unlimited energy and all that
17:34:06 <wob_jonas> but if it's balanced, it's much harder to find good uses for it
17:34:57 <zzo38> Yes, but there can be a few, possibly
17:36:19 <wob_jonas> and I assume in this sci-fi setting it is a physical conservation law that it must be balanced, so if you get the plans of the machine and understand them, you can still only build new replicators that are balanced
17:36:27 <wob_jonas> it's not just a cruel joke by the inventor
17:37:34 <zzo38> Possibly in the alternate universe it goes in the other direction, and there is no way to predict it, nor to determine the point of correspondence, which may change.
17:38:23 <esowiki> [[Turing number]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=54649&oldid=54475 * Singingbanana * (-47)
17:38:30 <zzo38> (Maybe you want to ensure both dice, if biased at all, are biased in the same way.)
17:41:55 <ais523> wob_jonas: it'd be good if you had a set of distinct objects and wanted two identical, but didn't care which
17:42:08 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, that is the example I gave with the dice
17:42:16 <ais523> for example, things like replicating password keys
17:42:22 <ais523> they're worthless unless you share them with someone else
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17:43:01 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, or making a set of standard weights, or identical screws and bolts. but even that you can only do if you determine the number of objects you need in advance and create that many. you can fix the standard later once you distribute the weights.
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17:44:08 <zzo38> You could have a further restriction where both sides must initially have equal mass or the machine will explode. That would be another variant of the story.
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18:15:04 <zzo38> What are your opinion of some of the new ideas I made up for new Magic: the Gathering cards? Such as: Protection from players having at least one card in their hand. And, the other one: Protection from cards.
18:16:24 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I think protection from any subset of players currently has no effect (except possibly in silver-bordered land) so it's a useless ability
18:16:40 <wob_jonas> players can't attack or be attached, and they can't have abilities with targets.
18:16:53 <wob_jonas> they also can't deal damage
18:16:58 <zzo38> But protection from players extends to protection from stuff they control, isn't it?
18:17:13 <wob_jonas> not as far as I know
18:17:47 <zzo38> Rule 702.16j
18:19:19 <wob_jonas> oh. is that new?
18:19:24 <wob_jonas> what card has such an ability printed?
18:19:45 <zzo38> I don't think it is new, and I don't know what card has such an ability printed
18:20:01 <fizzie> Yeah, I'm not sure why I abbreviated it as "insn" (there's enough whitespace around for a longer string) but "instruction" is what it's short for.
18:21:00 <wob_jonas> `card-by-name True-Name Nemesis
18:21:10 <wob_jonas> in a commander set. no wonder I didn't recognize that
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18:30:44 <wob_jonas> did Taneb invent electric toothbrushes? camel-hair brushes?
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18:31:28 <boily> wellob_jonas. camel hair???
18:32:41 <wob_jonas> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel-hair_brush
18:33:04 <wob_jonas> "A camel-hair brush is a type of paintbrush with soft bristles made from natural hairs, usually squirrel."
18:33:29 <boily> oops. I thought it was camel hair toothbrushes...
18:33:47 <wob_jonas> no. toothbrushes are made of plastic.
18:34:01 <zzo38> A creature card could be made that has protection from cards, and also an ability that opponent creates tokens, like Hunted Horror has.
18:34:52 <zzo38> (That way, it can be blocked.)
19:04:44 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent disco?
19:10:36 <zzo38> Well, did you invent disco?
19:12:08 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent that pole firemen slide down in the station? Did Taneb invent that statement about the asymptotic maximal density of graphs excluding a certain non-bipartite graph as a subgraph?
19:12:50 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent video console controllers with two analog sticks? Did Taneb invent waffles?
19:14:17 <zzo38> If Taneb invented a lot of stuff then I think it is going to be long if you are going to list everything. However, it does sometimes different people invent the same thing independently, especially in mathematics it seem to me.
19:15:22 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent the "B" exposure mode on cameras, where the curtain is open for as long as you hold down the button? Did Taneb invent that mechanism in IKEA shells that slows them down when you close them, but doesn't slow them down at all when you open them?
19:20:02 <wob_jonas> Did Taneb invent that code in DOS where if you only have one floppy drive, it emulates two logical floppy drives by asking the user to put in the other disk whenever a program accesses the other drive? Did Taneb invent those stupid fenced areas in parks supposedly for dogs that are too small and muddy for a dog to do anything in it?
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19:24:36 <zzo38> I have written now how I defined the working of the string pool in RogueVM? If you have some complaints then I can adjust it.
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19:45:13 <wob_jonas> Wait what? One of the sigbovik articles claim that "Computers can vastly exceed human performance in a large and growing number of tasks, ranging from navigation to protein folding." Is that true? I thought human cells folded proteins faster than computers can, at least if you allow parallelism.
19:45:54 <zzo38> If it contains an error then write to them about it.
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19:53:02 <int-e> I think wob_jonas is hinting at the fact that most computers cannot fold any proteins at all.
19:54:02 <wob_jonas> They can fold proteins, but are very slow in that.
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19:56:05 <int-e> Okay, I was wrong then. In which case I would like to point out that those aren't actual proteins.
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20:41:47 <quintopia> boily: helloily
20:42:04 <quintopia> my volunteer app was accepted
20:43:03 <int-e> . o ( in which store... ah never mind )
20:44:54 <moony> brainfuck has been featured on esolangs.org for a little too long lol
20:53:53 <quintopia> agreed
20:54:19 <wob_jonas> moony: we've talked about that a few weeks ago in chat.
20:55:52 <wob_jonas> it's hard to feature a language on the wiki. lots of work and conflicts of interest.
20:57:03 <quintopia> how hard is it to just remove that featured language box entirely?
20:57:35 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that would make the homepage look unbalanced
21:00:29 <zzo38> Is there something else that could be put there?
21:01:50 <wob_jonas> we could feature the latest eso-programming competition, like Calesyta, IOCCC, or the Underhanded C contest. sadly those are very rare. Or we could feature golf problems or something. I dunno.
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21:06:30 <zzo38> Perhaps just label it as "Nothing here currently" if there is nothing here currently, and add the competiions and whatever else may be when there is one.
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21:19:10 <moony> ahis523!
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22:32:56 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA!
22:36:27 <boily> fungot`: why so grave?
22:36:27 <fungot`> boily: stop. you
22:36:39 * boily *THWACKS* fungot`
22:36:40 <fungot`> boily: but you could double name them.
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22:41:33 <int-e> ^8ball To be or not to be?
22:41:33 <fungot`> Yes.
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23:31:33 <boily> bonsϿirjan.
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23:36:30 <oerjan> bood evenily.
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