←2018-05-23 2018-05-24 2018-05-25→ ↑2018 ↑all
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00:32:57 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55334&oldid=55318 * Digital Hunter * (-7) /* The s variable group */
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00:48:59 <esowiki> [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55335&oldid=55334 * Digital Hunter * (+47)
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02:20:49 <shachaf> So I'm using this new editor Kakoune and its scripting language is like an esolang.
02:21:20 <shachaf> The only control flow (other than running a shell) is try-catch
02:22:53 <shachaf> The commands' official names are their keybindings, so I keep writing programs that look like "aZ;gi"bZ"az<a-;>;gi"b<a-z>u
02:24:09 <shachaf> I wonder whether it's TC without %sh{}?
02:24:25 <shachaf> I'd guess it is.
02:25:13 <shachaf> Oh, there's also a kind of looping primitive.
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02:48:05 <oerjan> just make a wiki page for it hth
02:48:52 <oerjan> or better, solve some PPCG challenges
02:49:51 <arseniiv> shachaf: wow :o
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03:09:35 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't do wikis htdnh
03:09:41 <shachaf> `? htdnh
03:09:42 <HackEso> htdnh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:09:52 <shachaf> `? dnh
03:09:53 <HackEso> dnh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
03:10:25 <shachaf> `? dth
03:10:27 <HackEso> dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
03:10:56 <shachaf> doughnuts to horses, i thought that wouldn't be defined
03:11:00 <shachaf> `dowg dth
03:11:02 <HackEso> 10949:2017-05-24 <Cal̈e> le//rn dth//dth is the dth ordinal. dth?
03:11:11 <shachaf> What!
03:11:17 <shachaf> Cale edits the wisdom database?
03:11:42 <oerjan> under a pseudonym, it seems
03:11:56 <oerjan> no wait
03:12:04 <oerjan> that's just the diarrhea
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04:57:46 <irCobHead> xkapastel tswett moony arseniiv Storkman imode oerjan sftp joast Sgeo_ MDude doesthiswork tromp vertrex jix Cale alercah moei variable Guest6451 hakatashi sprocklem Warrigal_ newsham sebbu contrapumpkin danieljabailey puckipedia xa0 pikhq lambdabot Bowserinator ProofTechnique[m grumble mniip int-e rdococ diginet APic Lord_of_Life incomprehensibly esowiki b_jonas myname zemhill__ relrod catern staffehn Elronnd quintopia uplime paul25
04:57:46 <irCobHead> x k a p a s t e l t s w e t t m o o n y a r s e n i i v S t o r k m a n i m o d e o e r j a n s f t p j o a s t S g e o _ M D u d e d o e s t h i s w o r k t r o m p v e r t r e x j i x C a l e a l e r c a h m o e i v a r i a b l e G u e s t 6 4 5 1 h a k a t a s h i s p r o c k l e m W a r r i g a l _ n e w s h a m s e b b u c o n t r a p u m p k i n d a n i e l j a b a i l e y
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04:58:16 <rdococ> What?
04:59:15 <doesthiswork> an unusual spam message
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09:32:53 <ais523_> @messages?
09:32:53 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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09:35:26 <ais523> @messages?
09:35:26 <lambdabot> Sorry, no messages today.
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09:44:11 <ais523_> huh, Andromeda is really similar to an esolang I've been working on
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09:50:59 <wob_jonas> `? towel
09:51:00 <HackEso> towel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:51:02 <wob_jonas> `? towel day
09:51:03 <HackEso> towel day? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:51:09 <wob_jonas> `? international talk like a pirate day
09:51:10 <HackEso> international talk like a pirate day? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
09:51:13 <wob_jonas> `? itlpd
09:51:14 <HackEso> itlpd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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10:21:23 <esowiki> [[Along and Across]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55336 * Ais523 non-admin * (+5096) new language/meta-language
10:21:42 <esowiki> [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55337&oldid=54357 * Ais523 non-admin * (+22) +[[Along and Across]]
10:22:10 <esowiki> [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55338&oldid=55316 * Ais523 non-admin * (+23) +[[Along and Across]]
10:22:26 <wob_jonas> towel day is tomorrow
10:22:36 <ais523_> that's a /different/ esolang from the one I've been working on
10:22:45 <ais523_> currently I'm working on something like three esolangs at once
10:22:51 <wob_jonas> ais523! you're here!
10:22:58 <ais523_> (Along and Across, the one that's simlar to Andromeda, and a third one)
10:23:26 <ais523_> and yes, I'm here
10:24:02 <ais523_> wait, no, I've actually been working on four esolangs at once
10:24:14 <ais523_> so it's good to have one documented so I can go back to working on only three of them :-)
10:25:02 <ais523_> (that's if you ignore the esolang projects that I have running in the background but haven't been working on much, like The Underlambda Project)
10:26:12 <wob_jonas> ais523: you all were right when you complained about windows terminals. I just ran a vim in a mintty on a modern windows machine, maximized with 9x20 font so 46x191 cells, and scrolling down a long list by going to the next page with each control-F keypress, and the terminal was noticably slow to draw the next page
10:26:28 <ais523_> yes
10:26:35 <ais523_> the problem is working out exactly what's wrong so that you can work around it
10:26:50 <ais523_> as it sometimes doesn't happen but nobody seems to know the exact trigger
10:27:04 <wob_jonas> yeah
10:29:12 <wob_jonas> apart from this though, mintty was quite usable, and easy to install too: you just unpack the portable git for windows tarball, which has not only mintty but a lot of other useful utilities like vim, cat, grep, sort, less, diff, diff3, patch, cmp, curl, openssl, sha256sum, perl.
10:29:34 <ais523_> does patch actually work with that filename?
10:29:50 <wob_jonas> spares me from installing some smaller packages separately
10:29:57 <ais523_> Windows actually special-cases the filename patch.exe, so you'd need some sort of manifest in the executable to undo the special case
10:29:57 <wob_jonas> what filename?
10:30:07 <wob_jonas> wait, really?
10:30:15 <ais523_> it tries to elevate it to admin
10:30:21 <ais523_> there are a few other names like that, such as setup.exe
10:30:28 <wob_jonas> ah
10:30:38 <wob_jonas> I don't really remember.
10:30:45 <ais523_> I think you can override this behaviour in both directions, you just have to know you have to and to know how
10:30:49 <wob_jonas> I'll test
10:31:46 <wob_jonas> that may have been the problem when I installed diffutils from the http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages.html distro, I don't recall the details
10:32:42 <wob_jonas> do you mean whoever compiled git for windows could override that in both directions by putting something in the exe itself, or I can override it by some system-local setting?
10:34:17 <ais523_> it's in the exe itself
10:34:31 <wob_jonas> patch seems to work
10:34:39 <ais523_> NH4 has this sort of metadata to tell Windows whether to open a terminal window for it or not
10:34:59 <wob_jonas> I think the maintainers of git for windows have solved this properly then
10:35:05 <ais523_> good
10:35:15 <ais523_> they'd have had to run into it while testing, surely :-)
10:35:18 <wob_jonas> it's a pretty good port, as far as you can go with close to native windows experience
10:35:23 <wob_jonas> no way
10:35:57 <wob_jonas> the porters are probably git enthusiasts, they'd never use bare diff/diff3/patch, they always put everything in vcs and use git subcommands for that
10:36:53 <ais523_> well, if you're going to ship an executable, wouldn't you run it at least once to see if it runs?
10:36:58 <ais523_> even if it's redundant to the other tools you use
10:37:48 <ais523_> e.g. it's very rare for me to use grep nowadays (the "make a better grep" wars have lead to a number of better alternatives), but I'd run it to make sure it worked if I were going to ship it
10:37:48 <wob_jonas> ais523_: they don't ship those individually, they get it from some upstream mingw thingy
10:38:00 <wob_jonas> that is, compile tools in mingw by bulk
10:38:20 <ais523_> right
10:38:31 <ais523_> maybe mingw figured out and fixed the problem, then
10:38:34 <wob_jonas> and msys and whatever these things are
10:38:36 <wob_jonas> not just mingw
10:38:42 <wob_jonas> the patch exe is from msyss
10:39:13 <wob_jonas> also, I think it's x86_64... though I don't have a binutils handy so I can't check it. does the compat exception still apply to x86_64 exes?
10:39:23 <ais523_> probably, not sure though
10:42:26 <esowiki> [[Along and Across]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55339&oldid=55336 * Ais523 non-admin * (-1) /* Computational class */ distinguish may-termination from must-termination; Thue is non-deterministic
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10:42:42 <wob_jonas> hah https://superuser.com/q/894170/267786
10:46:56 <wob_jonas> I'll answer that question then
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10:58:47 <ais523_> hmm… is it true that for any push-down automaton, there's another push-down automaton that recognises the same string backwards?
10:59:04 <ais523_> it clearly is for nondeterministic PDAs, it's less obvious if you require both to be deterministic though
10:59:34 <ais523_> this is equivalent to asking whether an LR(n) language remains LR(n) if you reverse the sequence of lexemes
11:02:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: hmm. the analog is known for deterministic automata, though the size can blow up.
11:02:51 <wob_jonas> wait what? is it really equivalent to that LR(n) thing?
11:03:46 <ais523_> deterministic PDAs recognise LR(n) languages and all LR(n) languages have some deterministic PDA that recognises them
11:04:32 <ais523_> it's obvious that finite-state machines can be reversed because they're equivalent in power to regular expressions and regular expressions can be reversed; the same sort of argument works for nondeterministic PDAs
11:04:38 <ais523_> but deterministic PDAs is harder
11:06:11 <wob_jonas> deterministic PDAs recognise LR(n) languages => hmm, I don't remember this claim. does it matter if the PDA can have null transitions? probably no.
11:06:16 <ais523_> you can tell that all LR(n) languages can be recognised by a PDA via using an explicit implementation, like yacc :-)
11:06:22 <ais523_> (it outputs PDAs)
11:06:24 <ais523_> anyway, I have to go
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11:06:44 <wob_jonas> you can tell that all LR(n) languages can be recognised by a PDA via using an explicit implementation, like yacc => I think YACC is not enough for that, but yes, I know that part
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11:22:09 <wob_jonas> oh! look
11:22:14 <wob_jonas> `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/amends/
11:22:14 <HackEso> pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/amends/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale
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12:39:56 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 "<ais523_> e.g. it's very rare for me to use grep nowadays (the "make a better grep" wars have lead to a number of better alternatives), but I'd run it to make sure it worked if I were going to ship it" <-- Now I'm curious, what do you recommend instead of grep?
12:39:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
12:44:58 <izabera> ag
12:46:06 <izabera> i'd love to have a proper context-sensitive grep for strings that span multiple lines, but i haven't found one that does exactly what i want
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12:46:49 <Vorpal> izabera: csearch (debian package called codesearch iirc) is good to index and then regex search really really large code bases with
12:46:59 <Vorpal> ag I think I heard of now that you mentioned it
12:47:03 <Vorpal> will look at it
12:47:50 <izabera> no i mean
12:47:54 <izabera> i have something like this
12:48:02 <izabera> if (foo) {
12:48:13 <izabera> error_log("this is a long"
12:48:24 <izabera> " error message"
12:48:29 <izabera> " that spans"
12:48:29 <Vorpal> ah
12:48:36 <izabera> " multiple lines");
12:48:37 <izabera> }
12:48:46 <Vorpal> that would need to be aware of the specific language though
12:48:48 <izabera> and i want to grep for 'this is a long error message that spans multiple lines'
12:48:50 <izabera> yes
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12:49:39 <Vorpal> izabera: I would like to be able to grep for error_log calls nested inside a if condition that (possibly only in part) depend on foo
12:50:04 <izabera> that's also annoyingly hard
12:50:13 <Vorpal> yes
12:50:26 <izabera> it's ridiculous how bad the state of the art is
12:50:41 <Vorpal> iirc for C there is a tool for the latter thing though
12:50:54 <Vorpal> developed by the linux kernel devs
12:50:58 <Vorpal> trying to remember the name of it
12:51:17 <Vorpal> http://coccinelle.lip6.fr/
12:51:38 <Vorpal> I have no use for it, I write C++ and Python mostly
12:51:45 <Vorpal> (for my day job I mean)
12:52:19 <Vorpal> izabera: might be of use to you, if you code in C
12:52:31 <izabera> thanks, i'll have a look
13:00:48 <Vorpal> izabera: and yeah, if you just want speed for regex search on multi-GB code bases, nothing beats csearch
13:01:18 <Vorpal> it creates and index with trigrams and uses the literal trigrams in your regex to narrow down which files to even look at
13:02:19 <Vorpal> doesn't support back references though, it only supports the limited regex dialect that can be compiled down to a DFA (as opposed to what PCRE and other backtracking implementations can do)
13:02:41 <izabera> i don't have multi gb
13:02:50 <izabera> i doubt that many companies have such codebases
13:05:45 <Vorpal> izabera: I work with a large project (about 1 GB source code, some consists of shared platform code, sure) targeting a cross-compiling internally produced device SDK (also really large). I use csearch to index all the source in the SDK and the project. Works very well
13:06:23 <Vorpal> very nice to just be able to find some weird internal string in Qt or whatever in less than a second
13:07:16 <Vorpal> aha, here is the link: https://github.com/google/codesearch
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15:19:40 <wob_jonas> What's the sanest way to represent a structure P where there's a shared reference to every instance of P from a global table, and so you must not move P values, you also must call the destructor before you drop a P value, but if you call the destructor that's fine because it will remove the reference from the global table.
15:19:45 <wob_jonas> ?
15:19:50 <wob_jonas> argh, wrong window
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18:13:11 <imode> why do people get angry on IRC.
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18:34:50 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: hehe, I have my own old grep clone too, called cgrep, but I don't use it these days because it's not actually better than gnu grep
18:35:51 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: there are superior tools, but they are mostly situational. I use pcregrep occasionally for the zero width assertion support for example
18:36:15 <Vorpal> and csearch is great for large code bases
18:36:26 <Vorpal> and hm, ag looks interesting
18:36:29 <Vorpal> will have to try that out
18:36:52 <wob_jonas> The only thing cgrep can do that some other grep tools can't is that it can tell you the function name the line appears in, but that only if the program is formatted in the classic way I use where the function name is at the very first column of the line but almost nothing else is.
18:37:56 <wob_jonas> I actually prefer that format, and use it even for C++, as in template<type T> void Foo<T>::
18:38:06 <wob_jonas> set_bar(int bar)
18:38:06 <wob_jonas> {
18:39:03 <wob_jonas> and even use that for global variables and for functions or variables where the identifier is preceded by a start or ampersand or is in parenthesis.
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18:44:14 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: so it does nothing for inline methods, or python or a lot of other things ;P
18:44:35 <Vorpal> Generally I search from inside an editor or IDE anyway, mostly QtCreator, PyCharm or Sublime at work
18:47:54 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: sure, and I find that even for code I write where it does work, it isn't useful, because I don't want to see the function name
18:48:23 <wob_jonas> I thought I would, when I wrote this utility, but now I find that's not actually that useful
18:48:35 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: also, why on earth put the { on a separate line? It is a waste of vertical space :P
18:49:24 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: I put the { on a separate line only for function definitions and struct definitions, not for inner control statements or similar.
18:49:42 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: inconsistent as well as a waste of space
18:49:55 <wob_jonas> and I've flip-flopped on that too, I'm not sure if putting it on a separate line is the best or not
18:50:11 <wob_jonas> currently I think it is, but I'm not sure
18:50:31 <Vorpal> so you at least write else the proper way? "} else {" all on one line
18:50:34 <wob_jonas> yes
18:50:40 <wob_jonas> and if (foo) { too
18:50:43 <Vorpal> how do you indent?
18:50:49 <wob_jonas> like
18:50:56 <wob_jonas> if (foo) {
18:50:57 <Vorpal> tabs or spaces? and how many?
18:51:05 <int-e> Hmm, this is *not* how the law works, dear spammer. "Please click on the "Cancel" button below by Friday 25 May 2018 if you want to unsubscribe from our newsletter. If you’d like to keep receiving emails from us just ignore this email"
18:51:24 <wob_jonas> I've varied that (tab or space and how many), I'm not sure what's the best.
18:51:35 <wob_jonas> I used to use tabs, but these days I think spaces are better.
18:51:37 <int-e> (But no, I didn't "click")
18:51:42 <Vorpal> int-e: is that spammer trying to make a reference to GDPR??
18:51:47 <int-e> Vorpal: yes
18:52:05 <wob_jonas> It gets complicated because indent size is something where I'm more willing to match the existing codebase, even if in some other parts of the style I don't always do that
18:52:13 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I think that indent by tab, adjust by space is best. But it requires dicipline or an editor that supports it
18:52:20 <int-e> Vorpal: Well they pretend to be a newsletter, but I'm certain it's one I've never subscribed to... so it's spam.
18:52:32 <Vorpal> for Python I go full on PEP8 (4 spaces) though, since it is pretty much the standard for that language
18:53:24 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: namespaces in C++, do they cause indentation in your style though?
18:53:48 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: I don't indent namespaces
18:54:00 <Vorpal> I think the lack of that is perhaps the one good thing about the style at work. Which is otherwise bad: { on new line always, 3 spaces indent
18:54:50 <Vorpal> so I think I have gotten about 5 GDPR mails today...
18:55:03 <wob_jonas> I'm also sometimes unsure about what formatting style to use for longer initializer lists or longer expressions, especially where to put the parenthesis or brackets or dots
18:55:23 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: in what programming language?
18:55:31 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: C++
18:55:33 <wob_jonas> oh right, namespaces
18:55:35 <wob_jonas> it has to be C++
18:55:52 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: the initializer lists are good at work too:
18:56:02 <Vorpal> foo::foo()
18:56:11 <Vorpal> : m_member()
18:56:17 <Vorpal> , m_memberAlso(123)
18:56:19 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: not those
18:56:38 <wob_jonas> are those even called initializer lists?
18:56:51 <Vorpal> hm, what are they called if not that?
18:57:02 <wob_jonas> I mean braces to initialize an aggregate, especially an array, possibly an array of structures
18:57:07 <Vorpal> but you probably mean vector<int> foo = {1, 2, 3} then?
18:57:08 <Vorpal> yeah
18:57:09 <wob_jonas> let me look that up
18:57:19 <int-e> Vorpal: not sure I envy you, but yes that's what I meant when I said that I feel left out.
18:57:21 <wob_jonas> yes, that sort
18:57:32 <Vorpal> int-e: err? context?
18:57:47 <int-e> Vorpal: well, I got 1 GDPR mail today!
18:58:08 <Vorpal> oh, they started dropping in about a month ago, and just more and more every week since then
18:58:19 <wob_jonas> hmm, apparently the constructor stuff is called initializer list too. that's confusing.
18:58:30 <wob_jonas> let me check what the grammar in the standard calls them
18:58:39 <int-e> while everybody else seems to be celebrating being unsubscribed from everything :P
18:58:52 <Vorpal> int-e: at least I got a good list of all the online services I'm using and customer "clubs" and such that I'm in.
18:59:49 <Vorpal> int-e: not a EU citizen?
18:59:55 <int-e> yes I am
19:00:04 <Vorpal> okay, weird then
19:00:23 <int-e> (and it's a .de email address so it's blatantly obvious)
19:01:20 <int-e> well a few legitimate services have contacted me. like github.
19:01:30 <Vorpal> I put everything GDPR in a separate mailbox, just to be able to get a complete list of all services I use, turns out to be about 30-40 so far, eyeballing the list
19:01:44 <Vorpal> int-e: oh yeah, I talked about legitimate ones here
19:01:51 <Vorpal> haven't gotten any spam ones
19:02:02 <int-e> but even there I think I'm only up to 3 or 4 now
19:02:22 <int-e> s/up to/at/
19:02:31 <Vorpal> Nothing from Steam though
19:02:34 <Vorpal> that surprises me
19:03:39 <Vorpal> Or twitch huh
19:03:44 <int-e> gog... oh gog was early, April 26th
19:03:55 <Vorpal> yes, they were
19:04:15 <Vorpal> humble bundle was quite late though
19:04:59 <Vorpal> some Swedish companies were earlier
19:05:05 <Vorpal> Spotify was quite late
19:05:11 <wob_jonas> called ctor-initializer and mem-initializer-list (the former includes the leading colon), defined in [class.base.init] and referenced in [dcl.fct.def.general] in the C++ standard
19:05:42 <int-e> Vorpal: oh well, I guess there'll be more to come in the next few weeks
19:05:45 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: so doesn't really help
19:06:15 <Vorpal> int-e: shouldn't be, the law goes into effect tomorrow. And surely nobody missed the deadline ;P
19:06:45 <wob_jonas> I haven't gotten many GPDR-related emails yet, despite that I advertise my email addresses a lot, even to many services on the internet (my email addres is ambrus@math.bme.hu )
19:07:32 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: I use a separate email for every service and just put aliases in /etc/aliases. Thus it is easy to blacklist them if I start getting spam via dem
19:07:33 <Vorpal> them*
19:07:42 <Vorpal> as happened with the mail I used for the debian bug tracker
19:07:45 <wob_jonas> int-e: it doesn't seem to me like that law differs much from the data protection laws we already had in effect. the only big difference is that it explicitly tries to bind services ran outside of Europe when they have users in Europe
19:08:09 <Vorpal> I should file a bug to the debian bug tracker that they don't mask the emails properly
19:08:28 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: for a few services I have done that, and yes, that can be useful, I just usually don't bother
19:09:21 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: masking emails in mailing list archives is hard, because the emails sometimes get quoted in message bodies, and then the archives try to mask everything that has an at sign, and break all sorts of scripts that happen to contain an at sign in it so you can't copy them from the archive
19:09:34 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: it is a bug tracker, not a mailing list though
19:10:05 <wob_jonas> but for the bug trackers, well, I want them to find the emails. it's rather random websites and stores where I don't want them to send newsletters later.
19:10:46 <Vorpal> it wasn't them spamming me, it was someone finding the unmasked email in the bug report and spamming that
19:11:16 <wob_jonas> I mean, I even have published scholarly articles with my email address on them, by design, so it's no wonder I get conference invitations and journal invitations with article titles and emails automatically harvested
19:11:56 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: when I report a bug on github, or using the kernel bugzilla, my email is never made public
19:12:06 <int-e> wob_jonas: all of which is illegal under the GDPR :)
19:12:06 <Vorpal> so, why should the debian bug tracker do that
19:12:19 <Vorpal> int-e: does GDPR cover spam?
19:12:45 <Vorpal> but yeah I assume that the debian bug tracker may have issues with GPDR and not masking emails. Hm...
19:12:45 <int-e> (because, presumably, you provided the email address so that fellow academics can contact you about your paper and maybe related research, and nothing else)
19:13:27 <int-e> Vorpal: sure. it may not be effective, but it does cover spam, as it's processing your email address, which is personal information
19:14:23 <wob_jonas> I also have my email address on my homepage, although there it's deliberately obfuscated.
19:14:30 <Vorpal> well, tomorrow I'll file a bug with the debian bug tracker about how they treat the emails then
19:15:55 <Vorpal> jeez, their search function is terrible. Doesn't allow you to do a global free text search, you have to specify a package it seems
19:16:42 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: there are general web search engines like google search for a global search, they even let you restrict to a website under an url-directory
19:17:15 <Vorpal> yes I know, but they lag behind
19:17:28 <Vorpal> I wanted to know if there were any bugs filed mentioning GDPR
19:21:10 <wob_jonas> Hehe. Now I'm reminded to my bug report where gnu had a corrupted copy of the FSF on the glibc website. https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21383
19:21:20 <wob_jonas> (fixed since)
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19:22:31 <Vorpal> at least bugzilla has a proper search function
19:22:55 <wob_jonas> you'd think...
19:24:30 <wob_jonas> but the bug tracker for nethack4 at https://roguelikes.live/nh4-bugzilla/ is messed up so the search doesn't work properly, probably because importing the bugs from the previous bug tracker (a Trac wiki) was done incorrectly
19:24:37 <wob_jonas> so you can find surprises there too
19:25:18 <wob_jonas> there's a bug ticket for that filed by the way, although it's hard to find
19:26:54 <wob_jonas> https://roguelikes.live/nh4-bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=955
19:28:20 <Vorpal> This server could not prove that it is roguelikes.live; its security certificate expired 77 days ago.
19:28:22 <Vorpal> welp
19:28:27 <Vorpal> not a professionally run site
19:28:40 <wob_jonas> yes, I know
19:28:49 <wob_jonas> there might be a bug ticket about that too, I dunno
19:29:13 <wob_jonas> it's certainly not professional, nobody involved gets payed for it, and everyone has little time and doing it as a hobby only
19:29:16 <Vorpal> and it is using lets encrypt
19:29:20 <Vorpal> so they screwed up the cron job
19:29:37 <wob_jonas> still a bit better than when the whole bug tracker was unaccessible for a while
19:30:10 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: which is why I don't see the point in not going for github, gitlab or bitbucket
19:30:29 <Vorpal> all three services work way better than that
19:30:33 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: those sites suck and keep changing and hard to migrate away from them
19:30:43 <wob_jonas> especially the bug tracker is hard to migrate away
19:30:48 <Vorpal> really? hm
19:30:58 <Vorpal> can't you export it
19:31:04 <wob_jonas> the bug tracker that is
19:31:13 <wob_jonas> the code in the repo and its version history is usually easy to migrate away
19:31:16 <wob_jonas> but the bug tracker is difficult
19:31:46 <Vorpal> can't you export it
19:32:03 <wob_jonas> and when you host something on a big externally ran site, you're at their mercy, you can't do much if they decide to ban you, because it's not worth for them to spend time with problematic customers, they're satisfied with the other 95% of people who are using the site without a problem
19:32:36 <wob_jonas> you can't predict if you'll still be able to use the same site conveniently five or ten years ago
19:32:41 <wob_jonas> s/ago/later/
19:32:57 <Vorpal> hm, GDPR data portability won't help, since it isn't private personal data
19:33:45 <Vorpal> the data portability requirements will be interesting. Will your private playlists on spotify count for example?
19:33:58 -!- ATMunn has changed nick to Guest6061.
19:34:00 -!- ocharles has changed nick to Guest27988.
19:34:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Guest77757.
19:34:04 -!- lynn has changed nick to Guest13947.
19:34:04 <Vorpal> what the?
19:34:05 -!- paul2520 has changed nick to Guest88143.
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19:34:25 <Vorpal> what is going on
19:35:21 -!- Guest6061 has changed nick to ATMunn.
19:35:41 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: TOPIC #freenode
19:35:57 <Vorpal> right
19:35:58 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: probably Nickserv is confused and renaming users that he thinks aren't logged on and have nick enforcement
19:36:11 <Vorpal> yeah
19:36:24 <Vorpal> i'm lagging due to all the renames, heh
19:36:36 <Vorpal> it might rename me next then
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19:41:30 <Vorpal> IRC really is idiosyncratic with it's nick handling, compared to every modern service
19:42:07 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: IRC is old and cares a lot about historical compatibility
19:42:12 <Vorpal> indeed
19:42:26 <Vorpal> I was an admin on a small network for a while, I know how it works
19:42:53 <wob_jonas> I was never admin, but wrote clients and asked questions from the freenode buys and that's why I know a lot of details
19:42:57 <wob_jonas> s/buys/guys/
19:43:06 <Vorpal> oh and I wrote a bot too
19:43:07 <Vorpal> in bash
19:43:12 <Vorpal> because why not
19:43:26 <wob_jonas> I wrote multiple, and probably will write more in the future. Not in bash though.
19:43:29 <Vorpal> it had IPv6 support as well as loadable modules
19:43:31 <ATMunn> irc bots are fun
19:43:48 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: https://github.com/envbot/envbot
19:44:33 <Vorpal> I thought about writing a server, but meh
19:44:35 <wob_jonas> I'm also looking forward to the future not-quite-irc protocol that would allow non-tree configuration of servers, with loops. Will be useful if we expand to multiple planets far from earth or the like.
19:44:42 <Vorpal> in erlang (or elixir these days)
19:45:08 <wob_jonas> Writing a server is harder. That's deliberate, IRC is designed to make writing clients easy. Servers have to put up with a lot of stuff that's optional or non-existent for clients.
19:45:10 <Vorpal> anyone working on that protocol? and what is it called?
19:45:20 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: I don't know
19:45:35 <Vorpal> anyway a mesh network would be fun
19:45:50 <wob_jonas> I think people are at least working on what we can replace TCP with when we expand to faraway planets, which is a harder problem
19:46:20 <wob_jonas> and mind you, tree configuration still works if we have people on earth-moon and mars but nowhere else, you only need loops for the third planet
19:46:27 <wob_jonas> but you already need a tcp-replacement for mars
19:47:48 <wob_jonas> and a replacement for how the web works too, with all these heavily server-client interactive websites
19:49:30 <wob_jonas> mind you, we already have some of that, with these crazy web apps that run everything locally in your browser, including when you're offline
19:49:53 <Vorpal> hm, a lot of local caching. something like wikipedia would be hard though. Who would do the 3-way merges?
19:50:31 <Vorpal> or we invent FTL communication
19:52:23 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: also if github shuts down I think they will work out a way to handle it first. Google code and Microsoft codeplex shutdown somewhat gracefully, allowing easy migration to github. Though github has that as it's only business, unlike google and MS, so who knows
20:02:37 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: there' s a lot of hard design problems in getting services usable with 30 minutes of latency, even if you designed them from the scratch, especially if you care about values like privacy and distributed systems like hackers on the internet usually do
20:02:57 <wob_jonas> and gets even worse if the bandwidth across planets isn't infinite, which is pretty likely
20:03:39 <Vorpal> wob_jonas: it is more than 30 minutes usually
20:04:09 <Vorpal> isn't it like a couple of hours to Mars when it is furthest away
20:05:31 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: no. it's at most 23 minutes from Earth to Mars, double that for a round trip
20:05:53 <wob_jonas> and for some practical tasks you will need two or more round trips
20:06:08 <Vorpal> yeah
20:06:15 <wob_jonas> but of course it gets worse if you want places farther than Mars
20:06:50 <Vorpal> what about when it is occluded by the sun and you need to bounce it via some satellite
20:07:04 <Vorpal> then it won't be shortest path
20:07:11 <Vorpal> or did you include that in the calculation?
20:20:10 <wob_jonas> Vorpal: no, I haven't included that
20:20:14 <wob_jonas> but that shouldn't add too much time
20:21:19 <int-e> have you seen https://gdprhallofshame.com/ ?
20:21:50 <wob_jonas> I should re-read Heinlein's ''Time enough for love'' novel. IIRC it starts by a viewpoint character saying that he's a historian studying modern (at the time) history, but even for a prof'nal like him it's impossible to tell much about all of humanity, because
20:22:36 <wob_jonas> humans are colonizing the galaxy with close to the speed of light, so by the time he gets news from the pioneers farthest to him, they're no longer the farthest ones and the news is obsolete, but this has only been going on for like 20000 years so the colonization definitely hasn't reached any sort of stable state yet.
20:23:32 <shachaf> `smlist 463
20:23:33 <HackEso> smlist 463: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
20:26:19 <Vorpal> int-e: no, but that is amazing
20:29:26 <wob_jonas> Mind you, later in the book FTL travel is invented, and the most powerful kind too, the one that lets them freely travel back to the past to before FTL travel was invented.
20:31:40 <wob_jonas> Mind you, even on earth we sometimes have to deal with a second or two of latency when data goes through satellites.
20:34:03 <wob_jonas> A fun example was around 2000, when we watched sportsball matches on the Sydney olympics, and if you listened on the radio, you'd know the goals a second or two before they were shown on television.
20:35:20 <Vorpal> heh
20:41:37 <int-e> it may be worse today than back then... as videos get streamed and reencoded, which requires a buffer for each stage...
20:50:00 <Vorpal> good night
20:50:07 <wob_jonas> I just opened the plastic wrapping of a pack of bulgur wheat wrong, and spilt what looks like 50 g of grains everywhere. Some stayed on the kitchen counter, some went on the floor, some on the stove. I think there must be a few grains even under the dishwasher, where they will stay for years.
20:50:21 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes.
20:51:42 <wob_jonas> but back then we had the expectation that radio and TV are instantous. I even synced my clocks to the time announcement beeps in the radio, and could expect sub-second precision since all of it was generated and broadcast within Hungary.
20:52:16 <wob_jonas> The radio no longer broadcasts time beeps like that, and even the telephone company has discontinued the telephone voice clock service.
20:52:43 <wob_jonas> Instead we have to sync time to the internet or GPS signals now.
20:53:03 <wob_jonas> At least I can still have my computer sync to an internet time service within Hungary.
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20:54:47 <fizzie> We had a radio-synced alarm clock back in Finland, and at least a year or two ago it was still operational.
20:55:49 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
20:55:52 <fizzie> "The transmitter in Germany has an official range of 2,000 km. This means that the UK and Ireland should be well within range."
20:56:11 <fizzie> (That was from the manual of a different model, but I'm guessing it was the same sort of thing.)
20:57:38 <wob_jonas> fizzie: yes, those work too
20:57:58 <fizzie> ~1260 km from Braunschweig to Helsinki, so it would've been in range too.
20:58:02 <wob_jonas> useful if you want to run for a long time off a small battery, because receiving GPS can take somewhat more power
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21:13:25 <wob_jonas> bulgur is somewhat of a new addition to shops here. ten years ago I think I hadn't even heard of it.
21:14:30 <wob_jonas> it's made of wheat only with nothing else, like no-eggs pasta is, but isn't ground to flour first, so it's full of protein and dietary-fibers, but processed in some way that you can cook it in water quickly and serve as is as a side dish, like pasta or rice.
21:14:43 <wob_jonas> a useful addition really
21:15:05 <wob_jonas> I don't know why we hadn't had it before, it's not like you need exotic conditions to make it
21:15:10 <wob_jonas> probably just some culture difference
21:15:24 <wob_jonas> is probably grown and produced locally now
21:15:56 <wob_jonas> oh, and it lasts for at least six months without cooling like rice or pasta does
21:15:57 <shachaf> bulgur is tg
21:16:13 <shachaf> the confusing part is that the hebrew name is "burgul"
21:19:32 <wob_jonas> ok, cooking tested successful. now I'll have to pack the fish and bulgur in a box for lunch tomorrow, plus pack a lemon because that's best applied freshly, and a towel because tomorrow is towel day
21:20:59 <wob_jonas> (it's catfish, I think)
21:21:19 <shachaf> Why are you saying that?
21:26:53 <wob_jonas> no reason really
21:27:51 <int-e> there's a fungot in everyone of us, waiting to get out
21:27:52 <fungot> int-e: ( ( wow)) don't think that's such a tough thing so if you didn't do that my my dad he travels um he works for a little while they're in the dishwasher
21:28:04 <int-e> s/everyone/every one/
21:31:09 <wob_jonas> nah, it's more like I'm just talking to mysefl
21:31:16 <wob_jonas> because I don't have anyone else around to talk to
21:31:47 <int-e> `'
21:31:48 <HackEso> 89) <Quas_NaArt> Hooray! <Quas_NaArt> I'm an idiot.
21:31:56 <wob_jonas> and this is a friendly irc channel where I can say random stuff
21:33:10 <int-e> @dice 5d0
21:33:10 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input
21:33:43 <int-e> that's an awful error message
21:33:49 <wob_jonas> @dice 5d1
21:33:49 <lambdabot> wob_jonas: 5
21:33:52 <wob_jonas> @dice 5d2
21:33:52 <lambdabot> wob_jonas: 9
21:33:54 <wob_jonas> hmm
21:33:56 <wob_jonas> @dice 5d-2
21:33:56 <lambdabot> unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input
21:34:03 <wob_jonas> @dice 5d13
21:34:03 <lambdabot> wob_jonas: 49
21:34:13 <wob_jonas> [ +/?5#13
21:34:13 <j-bot> wob_jonas: 32
21:34:16 <wob_jonas> doesn't match
21:34:40 <wob_jonas> [ +/?5000#92
21:34:41 <j-bot> wob_jonas: 229189
21:34:47 <wob_jonas> @dice 5000d92
21:34:47 <lambdabot> wob_jonas: 230817
21:36:12 <int-e> it cheats :)
21:36:20 <int-e> @dice 1000000000d2
21:36:20 <lambdabot> int-e: 1499987354
21:36:54 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
21:37:15 <int-e> (afair it samples a normal distribution with the right expected value and variance)
21:38:15 <int-e> there's a cut-off for that... perhaps 20. (So for 20d6 it samples a d6 20 times, but above that, it'll approximate)
21:39:33 <shachaf> what a scam
21:39:39 <wob_jonas> int-e: I think for a small second argument, you can sample the distribution exactly, just like you can do so for a small first argument
21:39:48 <wob_jonas> if both are large you may need an approximation
21:39:51 <shachaf> I wanted physics simulations of rolling dice
21:40:27 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that's expensive. it's cheaper to outsource it to real people in the far east rolling dice for cheap
21:44:00 <fizzie> Hmm, that's tricky. My current keyboard no longer works in the GRUB menu at boot time, only after booting. So I can't select the thing I'd want to boot. :/
21:44:37 <fizzie> I thought it was (for whatever reason) because the keyboard was connected to the monitor's built-in USB hub, but looks like it doesn't work even if plugged in directly to one of the ports.
21:45:07 <fizzie> I did have to replace a keyboard semi-recently, so maybe it's just something with this particular keyboard. But that's... scow.
21:45:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: is it a wired or a wireless keyboard? native USB or converted? how old is the motherboard?
21:46:00 <wob_jonas> fizzie: and does it help if you physically unplug and replug the keyboard at the grub boot prompt?
21:46:24 <fizzie> Wired, native USB, some amount of years, maybe four. The previous (USB) keyboard worked fine.
21:46:36 <wob_jonas> I see
21:46:41 <fizzie> I will have to bump up the timeout in order to be able to test that.
21:46:46 <wob_jonas> yeah
21:47:10 <fizzie> (Also maybe it could start working after some seconds of warming up anyway. Seems a little odd.)
21:47:51 <wob_jonas> If that doesn't work, then you might need some workaround, such as a different keyboard for booting, or controlling grub from a remote machine through serial terminal, or by inserting a floppy or pendrive, or booting from a floppy or pendrive.
21:48:44 <wob_jonas> Or even a CD.
21:49:11 <fizzie> I'm a bit lacking in serial ports these days. The old keyboard is probably still somewhere, though.
21:49:48 <wob_jonas> Long ago I did have a system where I booted windows 95 from a floppy, but DOS and linux from the hard disk, on the same machine, but that wasn't because the keyboard didn't work, and indeed I could chose between windows and linux using the keyboard.
21:51:57 <fizzie> No luck with replugging. Tried a couple of different ports on the motherboard as well.
21:52:10 <fizzie> Also tried disconnecting other USB devices.
21:52:16 <wob_jonas> I see
21:52:37 <fizzie> Though maybe I should try booting with no other USB devices connected in the first place, in case it got permanently confused.
21:53:14 <fizzie> (Another machine here hangs permanently at boot time if an external USB hard disk enclosure is connected.)
21:53:47 <wob_jonas> Also long ago, I had a keyboard that didn't work after hard power cycling the machine (just using the power button to shut down didn't trigger that, you'd have to remove the power from the motherboard) until I pulled the keyboard plug and replugged it. This was probably because it was a keyboard with an AT plug and an AT to PS/2 converter, and they
21:53:47 <wob_jonas> didn't test the motherboard for that.
21:54:27 <wob_jonas> AT plug was sort of old technology back then.
21:54:44 <wob_jonas> But old keyboards can be very good quality and last for a long time, so it's a real use.
21:54:47 <fizzie> Huh, that actually worked.
21:54:58 <fizzie> When I boot it with the monitor's USB cable disconnected, the keyboard works.
21:55:25 <fizzie> Now I just need to remember to do that every time I need to do something in the boot prompt.
21:56:11 <fizzie> (Hypothesis: boot-time USB HID device enumeration gets confused by the hub and gives up.)
21:56:34 <wob_jonas> hehe
21:56:35 <wob_jonas> strange
21:57:13 <wob_jonas> in that case it might be worth to try to plug the USB devices to different ports
21:57:23 <wob_jonas> in case you get a configuration that works without having to replug anything
21:57:48 <wob_jonas> is the monitor USB cable for an USB hub in the monitor? for a camera built into it?\
22:04:30 <fizzie> For an USB hub. It doesn't have any other USB features.
22:04:56 <fizzie> Come to think of it, I had a phone plugged in said USB hub, it's always possible that might've confused it too.
22:05:10 <fizzie> (And a mouse, and one more hub.)
22:05:15 <wob_jonas> I wonder, do any monitors have a microphone in them? I know some have built-in speakers and a camera.
22:05:17 <fizzie> ...and a DAC.
22:06:56 <fizzie> All-in-one PCs do, but those probably don't count as "monitors" really.
22:07:20 <fizzie> I would expect at least some of the camera-equipped monitors would have a microphone as well.
22:07:26 <wob_jonas> yeah, some notebooks definitely have a microphone built in
22:08:47 <fizzie> The Dell P2418HZ "Monitor for Video Conferencing" says it has a microphone.
22:08:55 <wob_jonas> I see
22:09:09 <int-e> why do you want a microphone in your monitor though
22:09:29 <fizzie> int-e: To "make business personal".
22:09:42 <int-e> huh
22:09:47 <fizzie> And to "collaborate in stunning clarity".
22:10:11 <int-e> that's more of a puzzler than an explanation... are you quoting a buzzing brochure?
22:10:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: if use the a camera in it, that means it's already connected to the computer with a cable that can transmit video data, so presumably it can transmit audio data on the same cable too, and the camera is already close to whatever it's watching, so the microphone will be too
22:10:33 <fizzie> It's Microsoft® Skype® for Business certified.
22:10:42 <wob_jonas> int-e: so sort of like why some not very tiny stand-alone video cameras have a microphone built in
22:10:59 <wob_jonas> including both webcameras and standalone cameras
22:11:13 <fizzie> Today we used my laptop for audio because the meeting room's speaker was uncooperative.
22:11:20 <wob_jonas> the smaller cameras don't, to save space and possibly money
22:11:29 <fizzie> (The video side worked fine.)
22:11:48 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I used a notebook built-in microphone for skype call yesterday (but an external earplug speaker)
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22:29:29 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * The Piper * New user account
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