00:00:06 -!- Storkman has joined. 00:32:57 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55334&oldid=55318 * Digital Hunter * (-7) /* The s variable group */ 00:36:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined. 00:42:31 -!- hppavilion[0] has joined. 00:45:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:48:59 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55335&oldid=55334 * Digital Hunter * (+47) 00:53:57 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:23:44 -!- hppavilion[0] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:31 -!- imode has joined. 01:38:50 -!- Martha has joined. 01:53:57 -!- Storkman has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:54:04 -!- Storkman has joined. 02:05:05 -!- Martha has quit (Quit: Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!). 02:20:49 So I'm using this new editor Kakoune and its scripting language is like an esolang. 02:21:20 The only control flow (other than running a shell) is try-catch 02:22:53 The commands' official names are their keybindings, so I keep writing programs that look like "aZ;gi"bZ"az;gi"bu 02:24:09 I wonder whether it's TC without %sh{}? 02:24:25 I'd guess it is. 02:25:13 Oh, there's also a kind of looping primitive. 02:45:40 -!- arseniiv has joined. 02:48:05 just make a wiki page for it hth 02:48:52 or better, solve some PPCG challenges 02:49:51 shachaf: wow :o 02:52:19 -!- chal_ has joined. 03:06:04 -!- chal_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:09:35 oerjan: i don't do wikis htdnh 03:09:41 `? htdnh 03:09:42 htdnh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 03:09:52 `? dnh 03:09:53 dnh? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 03:10:25 `? dth 03:10:27 dth is the dth ordinal. dth? 03:10:56 doughnuts to horses, i thought that wouldn't be defined 03:11:00 `dowg dth 03:11:02 10949:2017-05-24 le//rn dth//dth is the dth ordinal. dth? 03:11:11 What! 03:11:17 Cale edits the wisdom database? 03:11:42 under a pseudonym, it seems 03:11:56 no wait 03:12:04 that's just the diarrhea 03:18:10 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:04:34 -!- moony has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:09:09 -!- moony has joined. 04:30:10 -!- tswett has joined. 04:45:30 -!- xkapastel has joined. 04:57:40 -!- irCobHead has joined. 04:57:43 ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A HELP CHANNEL WHERE THE HELP DON'T KNOW SHIT BUT INSTEAD OF SAYING THEY DON'T SHIT THEY WILL SPEND 10 MINS JERKING YOUR CHAIN?? LOOK NO FURTHER THAN #UBUNTU A CHANNEL FULL OF DUMB NIGGERS THAT DON'T KNOW SHIT!! 04:57:43 ARE YOU LOOKING FOR A HELP CHANNEL WHERE THE HELP DON'T KNOW SHIT BUT INSTEAD OF SAYING THEY DON'T SHIT THEY WILL SPEND 10 MINS JERKING YOUR CHAIN?? LOOK NO FURTHER THAN #UBUNTU A CHANNEL FULL OF DUMB NIGGERS THAT DON'T KNOW SHIT!! 04:57:46 xkapastel tswett moony arseniiv Storkman imode oerjan sftp joast Sgeo_ MDude doesthiswork tromp vertrex jix Cale alercah moei variable Guest6451 hakatashi sprocklem Warrigal_ newsham sebbu contrapumpkin danieljabailey puckipedia xa0 pikhq lambdabot Bowserinator ProofTechnique[m grumble mniip int-e rdococ diginet APic Lord_of_Life incomprehensibly esowiki b_jonas myname zemhill__ relrod catern staffehn Elronnd quintopia uplime paul25 04:57:46 x k a p a s t e l t s w e t t m o o n y a r s e n i i v S t o r k m a n i m o d e o e r j a n s f t p j o a s t S g e o _ M D u d e d o e s t h i s w o r k t r o m p v e r t r e x j i x C a l e a l e r c a h m o e i v a r i a b l e G u e s t 6 4 5 1 h a k a t a s h i s p r o c k l e m W a r r i g a l _ n e w s h a m s e b b u c o n t r a p u m p k i n d a n i e l j a b a i l e y 04:57:46 -!- irCobHead has quit (Client Quit). 04:58:16 What? 04:59:15 an unusual spam message 05:11:36 -!- staffehn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:33:49 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:01:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:26:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 06:58:11 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:05:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 08:08:17 -!- atslash has joined. 08:08:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:12:54 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:51:30 -!- felt has joined. 08:57:59 -!- felt has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:08:41 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:08:41 -!- Elronnd has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:14:02 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 608 seconds). 09:15:47 -!- atslash has joined. 09:19:10 -!- Elronnd has joined. 09:32:22 -!- ais523_ has joined. 09:32:53 @messages? 09:32:53 Sorry, no messages today. 09:35:19 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 09:35:26 @messages? 09:35:26 Sorry, no messages today. 09:35:28 -!- ais523 has changed nick to ais523_. 09:41:05 -!- grumble has joined. 09:41:53 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:42:21 -!- atslash has joined. 09:44:11 huh, Andromeda is really similar to an esolang I've been working on 09:50:57 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:50:59 `? towel 09:51:00 towel? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:51:02 `? towel day 09:51:03 towel day? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:51:09 `? international talk like a pirate day 09:51:10 international talk like a pirate day? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:51:13 `? itlpd 09:51:14 itlpd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 10:04:45 -!- grumblr has joined. 10:14:21 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 606 seconds). 10:14:23 -!- grumblr has changed nick to grumble. 10:21:23 [[Along and Across]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55336 * Ais523 non-admin * (+5096) new language/meta-language 10:21:42 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55337&oldid=54357 * Ais523 non-admin * (+22) +[[Along and Across]] 10:22:10 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55338&oldid=55316 * Ais523 non-admin * (+23) +[[Along and Across]] 10:22:26 towel day is tomorrow 10:22:36 that's a /different/ esolang from the one I've been working on 10:22:45 currently I'm working on something like three esolangs at once 10:22:51 ais523! you're here! 10:22:58 (Along and Across, the one that's simlar to Andromeda, and a third one) 10:23:26 and yes, I'm here 10:24:02 wait, no, I've actually been working on four esolangs at once 10:24:14 so it's good to have one documented so I can go back to working on only three of them :-) 10:25:02 (that's if you ignore the esolang projects that I have running in the background but haven't been working on much, like The Underlambda Project) 10:26:12 ais523: you all were right when you complained about windows terminals. I just ran a vim in a mintty on a modern windows machine, maximized with 9x20 font so 46x191 cells, and scrolling down a long list by going to the next page with each control-F keypress, and the terminal was noticably slow to draw the next page 10:26:28 yes 10:26:35 the problem is working out exactly what's wrong so that you can work around it 10:26:50 as it sometimes doesn't happen but nobody seems to know the exact trigger 10:27:04 yeah 10:29:12 apart from this though, mintty was quite usable, and easy to install too: you just unpack the portable git for windows tarball, which has not only mintty but a lot of other useful utilities like vim, cat, grep, sort, less, diff, diff3, patch, cmp, curl, openssl, sha256sum, perl. 10:29:34 does patch actually work with that filename? 10:29:50 spares me from installing some smaller packages separately 10:29:57 Windows actually special-cases the filename patch.exe, so you'd need some sort of manifest in the executable to undo the special case 10:29:57 what filename? 10:30:07 wait, really? 10:30:15 it tries to elevate it to admin 10:30:21 there are a few other names like that, such as setup.exe 10:30:28 ah 10:30:38 I don't really remember. 10:30:45 I think you can override this behaviour in both directions, you just have to know you have to and to know how 10:30:49 I'll test 10:31:46 that may have been the problem when I installed diffutils from the http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages.html distro, I don't recall the details 10:32:42 do you mean whoever compiled git for windows could override that in both directions by putting something in the exe itself, or I can override it by some system-local setting? 10:34:17 it's in the exe itself 10:34:31 patch seems to work 10:34:39 NH4 has this sort of metadata to tell Windows whether to open a terminal window for it or not 10:34:59 I think the maintainers of git for windows have solved this properly then 10:35:05 good 10:35:15 they'd have had to run into it while testing, surely :-) 10:35:18 it's a pretty good port, as far as you can go with close to native windows experience 10:35:23 no way 10:35:57 the porters are probably git enthusiasts, they'd never use bare diff/diff3/patch, they always put everything in vcs and use git subcommands for that 10:36:53 well, if you're going to ship an executable, wouldn't you run it at least once to see if it runs? 10:36:58 even if it's redundant to the other tools you use 10:37:48 e.g. it's very rare for me to use grep nowadays (the "make a better grep" wars have lead to a number of better alternatives), but I'd run it to make sure it worked if I were going to ship it 10:37:48 ais523_: they don't ship those individually, they get it from some upstream mingw thingy 10:38:00 that is, compile tools in mingw by bulk 10:38:20 right 10:38:31 maybe mingw figured out and fixed the problem, then 10:38:34 and msys and whatever these things are 10:38:36 not just mingw 10:38:42 the patch exe is from msyss 10:39:13 also, I think it's x86_64... though I don't have a binutils handy so I can't check it. does the compat exception still apply to x86_64 exes? 10:39:23 probably, not sure though 10:42:26 [[Along and Across]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55339&oldid=55336 * Ais523 non-admin * (-1) /* Computational class */ distinguish may-termination from must-termination; Thue is non-deterministic 10:42:30 -!- boily has joined. 10:42:42 hah https://superuser.com/q/894170/267786 10:46:56 I'll answer that question then 10:54:51 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BLIND CHICKEN). 10:58:47 hmm… is it true that for any push-down automaton, there's another push-down automaton that recognises the same string backwards? 10:59:04 it clearly is for nondeterministic PDAs, it's less obvious if you require both to be deterministic though 10:59:34 this is equivalent to asking whether an LR(n) language remains LR(n) if you reverse the sequence of lexemes 11:02:21 ais523: hmm. the analog is known for deterministic automata, though the size can blow up. 11:02:51 wait what? is it really equivalent to that LR(n) thing? 11:03:46 deterministic PDAs recognise LR(n) languages and all LR(n) languages have some deterministic PDA that recognises them 11:04:32 it's obvious that finite-state machines can be reversed because they're equivalent in power to regular expressions and regular expressions can be reversed; the same sort of argument works for nondeterministic PDAs 11:04:38 but deterministic PDAs is harder 11:06:11 deterministic PDAs recognise LR(n) languages => hmm, I don't remember this claim. does it matter if the PDA can have null transitions? probably no. 11:06:16 you can tell that all LR(n) languages can be recognised by a PDA via using an explicit implementation, like yacc :-) 11:06:22 (it outputs PDAs) 11:06:24 anyway, I have to go 11:06:39 -!- ais523_ has quit (Quit: meeting). 11:06:44 you can tell that all LR(n) languages can be recognised by a PDA via using an explicit implementation, like yacc => I think YACC is not enough for that, but yes, I know that part 11:10:37 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 11:22:09 oh! look 11:22:14 `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/amends/ 11:22:14 pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/amends/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale 12:16:28 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:17:14 -!- joast has joined. 12:24:51 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:26:04 -!- joast has joined. 12:29:21 -!- joast has quit (Client Quit). 12:34:44 -!- joast has joined. 12:39:56 @tell ais523 " e.g. it's very rare for me to use grep nowadays (the "make a better grep" wars have lead to a number of better alternatives), but I'd run it to make sure it worked if I were going to ship it" <-- Now I'm curious, what do you recommend instead of grep? 12:39:56 Consider it noted. 12:44:58 ag 12:46:06 i'd love to have a proper context-sensitive grep for strings that span multiple lines, but i haven't found one that does exactly what i want 12:46:41 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 12:46:49 izabera: csearch (debian package called codesearch iirc) is good to index and then regex search really really large code bases with 12:46:59 ag I think I heard of now that you mentioned it 12:47:03 will look at it 12:47:50 no i mean 12:47:54 i have something like this 12:48:02 if (foo) { 12:48:13 error_log("this is a long" 12:48:24 " error message" 12:48:29 " that spans" 12:48:29 ah 12:48:36 " multiple lines"); 12:48:37 } 12:48:46 that would need to be aware of the specific language though 12:48:48 and i want to grep for 'this is a long error message that spans multiple lines' 12:48:50 yes 12:49:31 -!- joast has joined. 12:49:39 izabera: I would like to be able to grep for error_log calls nested inside a if condition that (possibly only in part) depend on foo 12:50:04 that's also annoyingly hard 12:50:13 yes 12:50:26 it's ridiculous how bad the state of the art is 12:50:41 iirc for C there is a tool for the latter thing though 12:50:54 developed by the linux kernel devs 12:50:58 trying to remember the name of it 12:51:17 http://coccinelle.lip6.fr/ 12:51:38 I have no use for it, I write C++ and Python mostly 12:51:45 (for my day job I mean) 12:52:19 izabera: might be of use to you, if you code in C 12:52:31 thanks, i'll have a look 13:00:48 izabera: and yeah, if you just want speed for regex search on multi-GB code bases, nothing beats csearch 13:01:18 it creates and index with trigrams and uses the literal trigrams in your regex to narrow down which files to even look at 13:02:19 doesn't support back references though, it only supports the limited regex dialect that can be compiled down to a DFA (as opposed to what PCRE and other backtracking implementations can do) 13:02:41 i don't have multi gb 13:02:50 i doubt that many companies have such codebases 13:05:45 izabera: I work with a large project (about 1 GB source code, some consists of shared platform code, sure) targeting a cross-compiling internally produced device SDK (also really large). I use csearch to index all the source in the SDK and the project. Works very well 13:06:23 very nice to just be able to find some weird internal string in Qt or whatever in less than a second 13:07:16 aha, here is the link: https://github.com/google/codesearch 13:14:17 -!- tswett2 has joined. 13:17:10 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:14:17 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:36:02 -!- tswett2 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:51:07 -!- tswett has joined. 14:52:04 -!- tswett2 has joined. 14:55:25 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:19:40 What's the sanest way to represent a structure P where there's a shared reference to every instance of P from a global table, and so you must not move P values, you also must call the destructor before you drop a P value, but if you call the destructor that's fine because it will remove the reference from the global table. 15:19:45 ? 15:19:50 argh, wrong window 15:57:29 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:15:58 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:18:16 -!- atslash has joined. 16:20:02 -!- imode has joined. 17:01:44 -!- MDead has joined. 17:02:45 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:02:48 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 17:05:11 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:54:26 -!- tswett2 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:13:11 why do people get angry on IRC. 18:15:43 -!- APic has joined. 18:34:24 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:34:50 Vorpal: hehe, I have my own old grep clone too, called cgrep, but I don't use it these days because it's not actually better than gnu grep 18:35:51 wob_jonas: there are superior tools, but they are mostly situational. I use pcregrep occasionally for the zero width assertion support for example 18:36:15 and csearch is great for large code bases 18:36:26 and hm, ag looks interesting 18:36:29 will have to try that out 18:36:52 The only thing cgrep can do that some other grep tools can't is that it can tell you the function name the line appears in, but that only if the program is formatted in the classic way I use where the function name is at the very first column of the line but almost nothing else is. 18:37:56 I actually prefer that format, and use it even for C++, as in template void Foo:: 18:38:06 set_bar(int bar) 18:38:06 { 18:39:03 and even use that for global variables and for functions or variables where the identifier is preceded by a start or ampersand or is in parenthesis. 18:41:55 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:44:14 wob_jonas: so it does nothing for inline methods, or python or a lot of other things ;P 18:44:35 Generally I search from inside an editor or IDE anyway, mostly QtCreator, PyCharm or Sublime at work 18:47:54 Vorpal: sure, and I find that even for code I write where it does work, it isn't useful, because I don't want to see the function name 18:48:23 I thought I would, when I wrote this utility, but now I find that's not actually that useful 18:48:35 wob_jonas: also, why on earth put the { on a separate line? It is a waste of vertical space :P 18:49:24 Vorpal: I put the { on a separate line only for function definitions and struct definitions, not for inner control statements or similar. 18:49:42 wob_jonas: inconsistent as well as a waste of space 18:49:55 and I've flip-flopped on that too, I'm not sure if putting it on a separate line is the best or not 18:50:11 currently I think it is, but I'm not sure 18:50:31 so you at least write else the proper way? "} else {" all on one line 18:50:34 yes 18:50:40 and if (foo) { too 18:50:43 how do you indent? 18:50:49 like 18:50:56 if (foo) { 18:50:57 tabs or spaces? and how many? 18:51:05 Hmm, this is *not* how the law works, dear spammer. "Please click on the "Cancel" button below by Friday 25 May 2018 if you want to unsubscribe from our newsletter. If you’d like to keep receiving emails from us just ignore this email" 18:51:24 I've varied that (tab or space and how many), I'm not sure what's the best. 18:51:35 I used to use tabs, but these days I think spaces are better. 18:51:37 (But no, I didn't "click") 18:51:42 int-e: is that spammer trying to make a reference to GDPR?? 18:51:47 Vorpal: yes 18:52:05 It gets complicated because indent size is something where I'm more willing to match the existing codebase, even if in some other parts of the style I don't always do that 18:52:13 wob_jonas: I think that indent by tab, adjust by space is best. But it requires dicipline or an editor that supports it 18:52:20 Vorpal: Well they pretend to be a newsletter, but I'm certain it's one I've never subscribed to... so it's spam. 18:52:32 for Python I go full on PEP8 (4 spaces) though, since it is pretty much the standard for that language 18:53:24 wob_jonas: namespaces in C++, do they cause indentation in your style though? 18:53:48 Vorpal: I don't indent namespaces 18:54:00 I think the lack of that is perhaps the one good thing about the style at work. Which is otherwise bad: { on new line always, 3 spaces indent 18:54:50 so I think I have gotten about 5 GDPR mails today... 18:55:03 I'm also sometimes unsure about what formatting style to use for longer initializer lists or longer expressions, especially where to put the parenthesis or brackets or dots 18:55:23 Vorpal: in what programming language? 18:55:31 wob_jonas: C++ 18:55:33 oh right, namespaces 18:55:35 it has to be C++ 18:55:52 wob_jonas: the initializer lists are good at work too: 18:56:02 foo::foo() 18:56:11 : m_member() 18:56:17 , m_memberAlso(123) 18:56:19 Vorpal: not those 18:56:38 are those even called initializer lists? 18:56:51 hm, what are they called if not that? 18:57:02 I mean braces to initialize an aggregate, especially an array, possibly an array of structures 18:57:07 but you probably mean vector foo = {1, 2, 3} then? 18:57:08 yeah 18:57:09 let me look that up 18:57:19 Vorpal: not sure I envy you, but yes that's what I meant when I said that I feel left out. 18:57:21 yes, that sort 18:57:32 int-e: err? context? 18:57:47 Vorpal: well, I got 1 GDPR mail today! 18:58:08 oh, they started dropping in about a month ago, and just more and more every week since then 18:58:19 hmm, apparently the constructor stuff is called initializer list too. that's confusing. 18:58:30 let me check what the grammar in the standard calls them 18:58:39 while everybody else seems to be celebrating being unsubscribed from everything :P 18:58:52 int-e: at least I got a good list of all the online services I'm using and customer "clubs" and such that I'm in. 18:59:49 int-e: not a EU citizen? 18:59:55 yes I am 19:00:04 okay, weird then 19:00:23 (and it's a .de email address so it's blatantly obvious) 19:01:20 well a few legitimate services have contacted me. like github. 19:01:30 I put everything GDPR in a separate mailbox, just to be able to get a complete list of all services I use, turns out to be about 30-40 so far, eyeballing the list 19:01:44 int-e: oh yeah, I talked about legitimate ones here 19:01:51 haven't gotten any spam ones 19:02:02 but even there I think I'm only up to 3 or 4 now 19:02:22 s/up to/at/ 19:02:31 Nothing from Steam though 19:02:34 that surprises me 19:03:39 Or twitch huh 19:03:44 gog... oh gog was early, April 26th 19:03:55 yes, they were 19:04:15 humble bundle was quite late though 19:04:59 some Swedish companies were earlier 19:05:05 Spotify was quite late 19:05:11 called ctor-initializer and mem-initializer-list (the former includes the leading colon), defined in [class.base.init] and referenced in [dcl.fct.def.general] in the C++ standard 19:05:42 Vorpal: oh well, I guess there'll be more to come in the next few weeks 19:05:45 wob_jonas: so doesn't really help 19:06:15 int-e: shouldn't be, the law goes into effect tomorrow. And surely nobody missed the deadline ;P 19:06:45 I haven't gotten many GPDR-related emails yet, despite that I advertise my email addresses a lot, even to many services on the internet (my email addres is ambrus@math.bme.hu ) 19:07:32 wob_jonas: I use a separate email for every service and just put aliases in /etc/aliases. Thus it is easy to blacklist them if I start getting spam via dem 19:07:33 them* 19:07:42 as happened with the mail I used for the debian bug tracker 19:07:45 int-e: it doesn't seem to me like that law differs much from the data protection laws we already had in effect. the only big difference is that it explicitly tries to bind services ran outside of Europe when they have users in Europe 19:08:09 I should file a bug to the debian bug tracker that they don't mask the emails properly 19:08:28 Vorpal: for a few services I have done that, and yes, that can be useful, I just usually don't bother 19:09:21 Vorpal: masking emails in mailing list archives is hard, because the emails sometimes get quoted in message bodies, and then the archives try to mask everything that has an at sign, and break all sorts of scripts that happen to contain an at sign in it so you can't copy them from the archive 19:09:34 wob_jonas: it is a bug tracker, not a mailing list though 19:10:05 but for the bug trackers, well, I want them to find the emails. it's rather random websites and stores where I don't want them to send newsletters later. 19:10:46 it wasn't them spamming me, it was someone finding the unmasked email in the bug report and spamming that 19:11:16 I mean, I even have published scholarly articles with my email address on them, by design, so it's no wonder I get conference invitations and journal invitations with article titles and emails automatically harvested 19:11:56 wob_jonas: when I report a bug on github, or using the kernel bugzilla, my email is never made public 19:12:06 wob_jonas: all of which is illegal under the GDPR :) 19:12:06 so, why should the debian bug tracker do that 19:12:19 int-e: does GDPR cover spam? 19:12:45 but yeah I assume that the debian bug tracker may have issues with GPDR and not masking emails. Hm... 19:12:45 (because, presumably, you provided the email address so that fellow academics can contact you about your paper and maybe related research, and nothing else) 19:13:27 Vorpal: sure. it may not be effective, but it does cover spam, as it's processing your email address, which is personal information 19:14:23 I also have my email address on my homepage, although there it's deliberately obfuscated. 19:14:30 well, tomorrow I'll file a bug with the debian bug tracker about how they treat the emails then 19:15:55 jeez, their search function is terrible. Doesn't allow you to do a global free text search, you have to specify a package it seems 19:16:42 Vorpal: there are general web search engines like google search for a global search, they even let you restrict to a website under an url-directory 19:17:15 yes I know, but they lag behind 19:17:28 I wanted to know if there were any bugs filed mentioning GDPR 19:21:10 Hehe. Now I'm reminded to my bug report where gnu had a corrupted copy of the FSF on the glibc website. https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=21383 19:21:20 (fixed since) 19:21:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:22:31 at least bugzilla has a proper search function 19:22:55 you'd think... 19:24:30 but the bug tracker for nethack4 at https://roguelikes.live/nh4-bugzilla/ is messed up so the search doesn't work properly, probably because importing the bugs from the previous bug tracker (a Trac wiki) was done incorrectly 19:24:37 so you can find surprises there too 19:25:18 there's a bug ticket for that filed by the way, although it's hard to find 19:26:54 https://roguelikes.live/nh4-bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=955 19:28:20 This server could not prove that it is roguelikes.live; its security certificate expired 77 days ago. 19:28:22 welp 19:28:27 not a professionally run site 19:28:40 yes, I know 19:28:49 there might be a bug ticket about that too, I dunno 19:29:13 it's certainly not professional, nobody involved gets payed for it, and everyone has little time and doing it as a hobby only 19:29:16 and it is using lets encrypt 19:29:20 so they screwed up the cron job 19:29:37 still a bit better than when the whole bug tracker was unaccessible for a while 19:30:10 wob_jonas: which is why I don't see the point in not going for github, gitlab or bitbucket 19:30:29 all three services work way better than that 19:30:33 Vorpal: those sites suck and keep changing and hard to migrate away from them 19:30:43 especially the bug tracker is hard to migrate away 19:30:48 really? hm 19:30:58 can't you export it 19:31:04 the bug tracker that is 19:31:13 the code in the repo and its version history is usually easy to migrate away 19:31:16 but the bug tracker is difficult 19:31:46 can't you export it 19:32:03 and when you host something on a big externally ran site, you're at their mercy, you can't do much if they decide to ban you, because it's not worth for them to spend time with problematic customers, they're satisfied with the other 95% of people who are using the site without a problem 19:32:36 you can't predict if you'll still be able to use the same site conveniently five or ten years ago 19:32:41 s/ago/later/ 19:32:57 hm, GDPR data portability won't help, since it isn't private personal data 19:33:45 the data portability requirements will be interesting. Will your private playlists on spotify count for example? 19:33:58 -!- ATMunn has changed nick to Guest6061. 19:34:00 -!- ocharles has changed nick to Guest27988. 19:34:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has changed nick to Guest77757. 19:34:04 -!- lynn has changed nick to Guest13947. 19:34:04 what the? 19:34:05 -!- paul2520 has changed nick to Guest88143. 19:34:06 -!- Gregor has changed nick to Guest49568. 19:34:06 -!- quintopia has changed nick to Guest78368. 19:34:07 -!- digitalcold has changed nick to Guest87858. 19:34:08 -!- GeekDude has changed nick to Guest33130. 19:34:25 what is going on 19:35:21 -!- Guest6061 has changed nick to ATMunn. 19:35:41 Vorpal: TOPIC #freenode 19:35:57 right 19:35:58 Vorpal: probably Nickserv is confused and renaming users that he thinks aren't logged on and have nick enforcement 19:36:11 yeah 19:36:24 i'm lagging due to all the renames, heh 19:36:36 it might rename me next then 19:37:58 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:39:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:41:30 IRC really is idiosyncratic with it's nick handling, compared to every modern service 19:42:07 Vorpal: IRC is old and cares a lot about historical compatibility 19:42:12 indeed 19:42:26 I was an admin on a small network for a while, I know how it works 19:42:53 I was never admin, but wrote clients and asked questions from the freenode buys and that's why I know a lot of details 19:42:57 s/buys/guys/ 19:43:06 oh and I wrote a bot too 19:43:07 in bash 19:43:12 because why not 19:43:26 I wrote multiple, and probably will write more in the future. Not in bash though. 19:43:29 it had IPv6 support as well as loadable modules 19:43:31 irc bots are fun 19:43:48 wob_jonas: https://github.com/envbot/envbot 19:44:33 I thought about writing a server, but meh 19:44:35 I'm also looking forward to the future not-quite-irc protocol that would allow non-tree configuration of servers, with loops. Will be useful if we expand to multiple planets far from earth or the like. 19:44:42 in erlang (or elixir these days) 19:45:08 Writing a server is harder. That's deliberate, IRC is designed to make writing clients easy. Servers have to put up with a lot of stuff that's optional or non-existent for clients. 19:45:10 anyone working on that protocol? and what is it called? 19:45:20 Vorpal: I don't know 19:45:35 anyway a mesh network would be fun 19:45:50 I think people are at least working on what we can replace TCP with when we expand to faraway planets, which is a harder problem 19:46:20 and mind you, tree configuration still works if we have people on earth-moon and mars but nowhere else, you only need loops for the third planet 19:46:27 but you already need a tcp-replacement for mars 19:47:48 and a replacement for how the web works too, with all these heavily server-client interactive websites 19:49:30 mind you, we already have some of that, with these crazy web apps that run everything locally in your browser, including when you're offline 19:49:53 hm, a lot of local caching. something like wikipedia would be hard though. Who would do the 3-way merges? 19:50:31 or we invent FTL communication 19:52:23 wob_jonas: also if github shuts down I think they will work out a way to handle it first. Google code and Microsoft codeplex shutdown somewhat gracefully, allowing easy migration to github. Though github has that as it's only business, unlike google and MS, so who knows 20:02:37 Vorpal: there' s a lot of hard design problems in getting services usable with 30 minutes of latency, even if you designed them from the scratch, especially if you care about values like privacy and distributed systems like hackers on the internet usually do 20:02:57 and gets even worse if the bandwidth across planets isn't infinite, which is pretty likely 20:03:39 wob_jonas: it is more than 30 minutes usually 20:04:09 isn't it like a couple of hours to Mars when it is furthest away 20:05:31 Vorpal: no. it's at most 23 minutes from Earth to Mars, double that for a round trip 20:05:53 and for some practical tasks you will need two or more round trips 20:06:08 yeah 20:06:15 but of course it gets worse if you want places farther than Mars 20:06:50 what about when it is occluded by the sun and you need to bounce it via some satellite 20:07:04 then it won't be shortest path 20:07:11 or did you include that in the calculation? 20:20:10 Vorpal: no, I haven't included that 20:20:14 but that shouldn't add too much time 20:21:19 have you seen https://gdprhallofshame.com/ ? 20:21:50 I should re-read Heinlein's ''Time enough for love'' novel. IIRC it starts by a viewpoint character saying that he's a historian studying modern (at the time) history, but even for a prof'nal like him it's impossible to tell much about all of humanity, because 20:22:36 humans are colonizing the galaxy with close to the speed of light, so by the time he gets news from the pioneers farthest to him, they're no longer the farthest ones and the news is obsolete, but this has only been going on for like 20000 years so the colonization definitely hasn't reached any sort of stable state yet. 20:23:32 `smlist 463 20:23:33 smlist 463: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 20:26:19 int-e: no, but that is amazing 20:29:26 Mind you, later in the book FTL travel is invented, and the most powerful kind too, the one that lets them freely travel back to the past to before FTL travel was invented. 20:31:40 Mind you, even on earth we sometimes have to deal with a second or two of latency when data goes through satellites. 20:34:03 A fun example was around 2000, when we watched sportsball matches on the Sydney olympics, and if you listened on the radio, you'd know the goals a second or two before they were shown on television. 20:35:20 heh 20:41:37 it may be worse today than back then... as videos get streamed and reencoded, which requires a buffer for each stage... 20:50:00 good night 20:50:07 I just opened the plastic wrapping of a pack of bulgur wheat wrong, and spilt what looks like 50 g of grains everywhere. Some stayed on the kitchen counter, some went on the floor, some on the stove. I think there must be a few grains even under the dishwasher, where they will stay for years. 20:50:21 int-e: yes. 20:51:42 but back then we had the expectation that radio and TV are instantous. I even synced my clocks to the time announcement beeps in the radio, and could expect sub-second precision since all of it was generated and broadcast within Hungary. 20:52:16 The radio no longer broadcasts time beeps like that, and even the telephone company has discontinued the telephone voice clock service. 20:52:43 Instead we have to sync time to the internet or GPS signals now. 20:53:03 At least I can still have my computer sync to an internet time service within Hungary. 20:54:38 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:54:47 We had a radio-synced alarm clock back in Finland, and at least a year or two ago it was still operational. 20:55:49 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:55:52 "The transmitter in Germany has an official range of 2,000 km. This means that the UK and Ireland should be well within range." 20:56:11 (That was from the manual of a different model, but I'm guessing it was the same sort of thing.) 20:57:38 fizzie: yes, those work too 20:57:58 ~1260 km from Braunschweig to Helsinki, so it would've been in range too. 20:58:02 useful if you want to run for a long time off a small battery, because receiving GPS can take somewhat more power 21:00:19 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 21:02:43 -!- j-bot has joined. 21:04:09 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 21:06:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:12:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:13:00 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:13:25 bulgur is somewhat of a new addition to shops here. ten years ago I think I hadn't even heard of it. 21:14:30 it's made of wheat only with nothing else, like no-eggs pasta is, but isn't ground to flour first, so it's full of protein and dietary-fibers, but processed in some way that you can cook it in water quickly and serve as is as a side dish, like pasta or rice. 21:14:43 a useful addition really 21:15:05 I don't know why we hadn't had it before, it's not like you need exotic conditions to make it 21:15:10 probably just some culture difference 21:15:24 is probably grown and produced locally now 21:15:56 oh, and it lasts for at least six months without cooling like rice or pasta does 21:15:57 bulgur is tg 21:16:13 the confusing part is that the hebrew name is "burgul" 21:19:32 ok, cooking tested successful. now I'll have to pack the fish and bulgur in a box for lunch tomorrow, plus pack a lemon because that's best applied freshly, and a towel because tomorrow is towel day 21:20:59 (it's catfish, I think) 21:21:19 Why are you saying that? 21:26:53 no reason really 21:27:51 there's a fungot in everyone of us, waiting to get out 21:27:52 int-e: ( ( wow)) don't think that's such a tough thing so if you didn't do that my my dad he travels um he works for a little while they're in the dishwasher 21:28:04 s/everyone/every one/ 21:31:09 nah, it's more like I'm just talking to mysefl 21:31:16 because I don't have anyone else around to talk to 21:31:47 `' 21:31:48 89) Hooray! I'm an idiot. 21:31:56 and this is a friendly irc channel where I can say random stuff 21:33:10 @dice 5d0 21:33:10 unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input 21:33:43 that's an awful error message 21:33:49 @dice 5d1 21:33:49 wob_jonas: 5 21:33:52 @dice 5d2 21:33:52 wob_jonas: 9 21:33:54 hmm 21:33:56 @dice 5d-2 21:33:56 unexpected 'd': expecting digit, operator or end of input 21:34:03 @dice 5d13 21:34:03 wob_jonas: 49 21:34:13 [ +/?5#13 21:34:13 wob_jonas: 32 21:34:16 doesn't match 21:34:40 [ +/?5000#92 21:34:41 wob_jonas: 229189 21:34:47 @dice 5000d92 21:34:47 wob_jonas: 230817 21:36:12 it cheats :) 21:36:20 @dice 1000000000d2 21:36:20 int-e: 1499987354 21:36:54 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:37:15 (afair it samples a normal distribution with the right expected value and variance) 21:38:15 there's a cut-off for that... perhaps 20. (So for 20d6 it samples a d6 20 times, but above that, it'll approximate) 21:39:33 what a scam 21:39:39 int-e: I think for a small second argument, you can sample the distribution exactly, just like you can do so for a small first argument 21:39:48 if both are large you may need an approximation 21:39:51 I wanted physics simulations of rolling dice 21:40:27 shachaf: that's expensive. it's cheaper to outsource it to real people in the far east rolling dice for cheap 21:44:00 Hmm, that's tricky. My current keyboard no longer works in the GRUB menu at boot time, only after booting. So I can't select the thing I'd want to boot. :/ 21:44:37 I thought it was (for whatever reason) because the keyboard was connected to the monitor's built-in USB hub, but looks like it doesn't work even if plugged in directly to one of the ports. 21:45:07 I did have to replace a keyboard semi-recently, so maybe it's just something with this particular keyboard. But that's... scow. 21:45:37 fizzie: is it a wired or a wireless keyboard? native USB or converted? how old is the motherboard? 21:46:00 fizzie: and does it help if you physically unplug and replug the keyboard at the grub boot prompt? 21:46:24 Wired, native USB, some amount of years, maybe four. The previous (USB) keyboard worked fine. 21:46:36 I see 21:46:41 I will have to bump up the timeout in order to be able to test that. 21:46:46 yeah 21:47:10 (Also maybe it could start working after some seconds of warming up anyway. Seems a little odd.) 21:47:51 If that doesn't work, then you might need some workaround, such as a different keyboard for booting, or controlling grub from a remote machine through serial terminal, or by inserting a floppy or pendrive, or booting from a floppy or pendrive. 21:48:44 Or even a CD. 21:49:11 I'm a bit lacking in serial ports these days. The old keyboard is probably still somewhere, though. 21:49:48 Long ago I did have a system where I booted windows 95 from a floppy, but DOS and linux from the hard disk, on the same machine, but that wasn't because the keyboard didn't work, and indeed I could chose between windows and linux using the keyboard. 21:51:57 No luck with replugging. Tried a couple of different ports on the motherboard as well. 21:52:10 Also tried disconnecting other USB devices. 21:52:16 I see 21:52:37 Though maybe I should try booting with no other USB devices connected in the first place, in case it got permanently confused. 21:53:14 (Another machine here hangs permanently at boot time if an external USB hard disk enclosure is connected.) 21:53:47 Also long ago, I had a keyboard that didn't work after hard power cycling the machine (just using the power button to shut down didn't trigger that, you'd have to remove the power from the motherboard) until I pulled the keyboard plug and replugged it. This was probably because it was a keyboard with an AT plug and an AT to PS/2 converter, and they 21:53:47 didn't test the motherboard for that. 21:54:27 AT plug was sort of old technology back then. 21:54:44 But old keyboards can be very good quality and last for a long time, so it's a real use. 21:54:47 Huh, that actually worked. 21:54:58 When I boot it with the monitor's USB cable disconnected, the keyboard works. 21:55:25 Now I just need to remember to do that every time I need to do something in the boot prompt. 21:56:11 (Hypothesis: boot-time USB HID device enumeration gets confused by the hub and gives up.) 21:56:34 hehe 21:56:35 strange 21:57:13 in that case it might be worth to try to plug the USB devices to different ports 21:57:23 in case you get a configuration that works without having to replug anything 21:57:48 is the monitor USB cable for an USB hub in the monitor? for a camera built into it?\ 22:04:30 For an USB hub. It doesn't have any other USB features. 22:04:56 Come to think of it, I had a phone plugged in said USB hub, it's always possible that might've confused it too. 22:05:10 (And a mouse, and one more hub.) 22:05:15 I wonder, do any monitors have a microphone in them? I know some have built-in speakers and a camera. 22:05:17 ...and a DAC. 22:06:56 All-in-one PCs do, but those probably don't count as "monitors" really. 22:07:20 I would expect at least some of the camera-equipped monitors would have a microphone as well. 22:07:26 yeah, some notebooks definitely have a microphone built in 22:08:47 The Dell P2418HZ "Monitor for Video Conferencing" says it has a microphone. 22:08:55 I see 22:09:09 why do you want a microphone in your monitor though 22:09:29 int-e: To "make business personal". 22:09:42 huh 22:09:47 And to "collaborate in stunning clarity". 22:10:11 that's more of a puzzler than an explanation... are you quoting a buzzing brochure? 22:10:12 int-e: if use the a camera in it, that means it's already connected to the computer with a cable that can transmit video data, so presumably it can transmit audio data on the same cable too, and the camera is already close to whatever it's watching, so the microphone will be too 22:10:33 It's Microsoft® Skype® for Business certified. 22:10:42 int-e: so sort of like why some not very tiny stand-alone video cameras have a microphone built in 22:10:59 including both webcameras and standalone cameras 22:11:13 Today we used my laptop for audio because the meeting room's speaker was uncooperative. 22:11:20 the smaller cameras don't, to save space and possibly money 22:11:29 (The video side worked fine.) 22:11:48 fizzie: I used a notebook built-in microphone for skype call yesterday (but an external earplug speaker) 22:28:57 -!- Guest6451 has changed nick to Slereah. 22:29:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * The Piper * New user account 22:33:20 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:45:48 -!- boily has joined. 22:48:18 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:56:49 -!- Guest77757 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:49 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:49:58 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:55:08 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:57:14 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).