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01:04:21 <esowiki> [[Talk:Infbf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55508 * Challenger5 * (+172) Created page with "Just wanted to mention that this language is very similar to 2<sup></sup> as described in [https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/163699 my PPCG challenge to interpret it]."
01:11:03 <esowiki> [[Boolet]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55509&oldid=55413 * Challenger5 * (+225)
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02:47:46 <zzo38> I thought of something a bit different, but yes some thing like that. Allowing the mouse to be used as well as the keyboard in the editor would help.
02:54:07 <zzo38> My own ideas was different though, you can define your own kind of pieces with their own flags, and pieces still is fit to grid. Even without configurable graphics though; rather, with different improvements.
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05:37:29 <oerjan> @tell Vorpal <Vorpal> could you create a "meta stable" state of cross references, such that the calculated target pages changes every other re-run <-- definitely. e.g. https://tex.stackexchange.com/q/154594
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07:03:03 * oerjan wonders if agatha will ever meet "Old Tobber", or if something's happened to him
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08:00:01 <esowiki> [[Longplayer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55510&oldid=55507 * Plokmijnuhby * (+95)
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08:13:07 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55511&oldid=55493 * Lol-md4 * (+143) Added my introduction
08:13:27 <esowiki> [[Intrnt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55512&oldid=52596 * Lol-md4 * (-197) Delete page. @totallyhuman no longer has this repo on GitHub.
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08:46:31 <oerjan> hm it does indeed seem to be gone
08:52:00 <oerjan> but i'm a bit loathe to delete it immediately when it isn't the author itself who asks
08:52:35 <oerjan> hm that definitely isn't the right word.
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09:14:09 <oerjan> ...this milk chocolate with coconut is addictive.
09:15:30 <oerjan> and i only started buying it because the shop chain sent me a free coupon
09:16:04 <oerjan> (mind you, i was already buying the plain variant)
09:41:19 <int-e> . o O ( now why does the shop have your address, I wonder )
09:41:37 <int-e> but I guess it could be an ordinary flyer type thing
09:47:08 <oerjan> int-e: because i have the chain's membership card
09:48:05 <int-e> next you'll be telling us that you use a debit or credit card to pay for your purchases as well
09:48:40 <oerjan> it's a co-op chain, so technically i'm theoretically part owner
09:49:21 <oerjan> although come to think of it they keep trying to push a credit card on me as well
09:55:10 <oerjan> apparently english uses i
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09:57:10 <int-e> German has nothing similar at all. I know it as EC-Karte (Germany, after the brand), or Bankomatkarte (Austria, by purpose (card for ATMs))
10:06:53 <esowiki> [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55513&oldid=55410 * Saka * (+13) add
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12:21:24 <wob_jonas> my latest debit card actually has "debit" printed in large letters on the front side. this didn't use to be the case with previous cards
12:24:53 <int-e> mmm. mine says debit in the back, relatively small. never noticed that before
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12:40:08 <wob_jonas> oh, it also says "debit" in large letters on the hologram on the back. I think that's new too
12:42:15 <int-e> a hologram. heh, none here
12:45:46 <wob_jonas> a holographic sticker. isn't that standard feature on all debit cards, so much that they sell them on the black market too?
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12:51:22 <int-e> wob_jonas: not mine. the credit card has one.
12:52:04 <int-e> of course the main identifying feature is the chip. I wouldn't be surprised if the magnet stripe was basically empty.
12:54:13 <wob_jonas> int-e: it's not empty. there are several levels of fallback to older technologies still supported by the card: so you can pay by contactless, by chip, by magnetic strip (on older card readers with no chip support), by card number and name and expiry date and cvc code, and by card number and name and expiry date.
12:54:21 <esowiki> [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55514&oldid=54680 * Ais523 * (+954) /* Computations in BCT */ Graue mentioned in an interview a while back that we have no actual proof of cyclic tag's TCness on the wiki, which is an issue as it's used for so many proofs; add (summaries of) the standard proof and a proof via [[DownRight]]
12:54:32 <wob_jonas> no matter how good the new ones are, the old insecure technologies are still there.
12:55:31 <wob_jonas> and that's just how the card point of sale communicates with the card, there's also a dimension of when the point of sale communicates with the bank
12:57:01 <wob_jonas> (there's also the tech, not available for this card, where when you pay with an embossed card, they make an impression of the card onto carbon paper or something)
12:58:00 <int-e> all that is fine and I'm still pretty sure that the debit card doesn't support non-EMV payments. There'll be some minimal information on the magnet stripe, so that door openers and the like work.
12:59:03 <int-e> The credit card is a different beast... not sure what works and what doesn't. It is embossed, for starters.
13:00:27 <wob_jonas> besides, the chip isn't even that old technology. my first debit card only had the magnetic stripe.
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13:00:54 <HackEso> 503) <itidus20> indirect addressing is a facile and inebrious kind of instruction which should be whomped away by languages \ 1196) <fizzie> I am in room number 404. <fizzie> I keep not finding it and walking past the door. \ 1242) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing) \ 1320) <shachaf> int-e does not like this [...] <int-e> shachaf:
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13:09:16 <esowiki> [[Subtractpocalypse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55515&oldid=49152 * Ais523 * (-1) typo
13:30:36 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55516 * Saka * (+3537) Created page with ":''Not to be confused with [[TP]], another language also based on toilet paper.'' The Toilet Paper Programming Language, or TPPL for short, is an esoteric language created by..."
13:32:13 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55517&oldid=55516 * Saka * (+66) Categories
13:33:08 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55518&oldid=55517 * Saka * (+1) mispelling
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14:33:23 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55519&oldid=55518 * Saka * (-155) /* Examples */ turns out it's really faulty
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15:20:59 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55520&oldid=55519 * Saka * (+183) Fixed example
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16:39:43 <zzo38> The wireless payment isn't so good, they should require a wire. I once wrote down how a protocol could work for such thing, better than what we have now. There are private keys, but the account holder only knows them if they specifically ask for them, for security. (Therefore you can implement the protocol yourself, to add additional passwords and whatever.)
16:40:28 <zzo38> This new one also avoid the case where the merchant will steal your password, but only if the customer has their own keypad (which might only be the case if they implement it by themself).
16:40:37 <zzo38> Fingerprints, too.
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16:41:39 <esowiki> [[Talk:TPPL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55521 * Zzo38 * (+207) Created page with "Under "Basics" it says the program must begin with "ENTER RESTROOM", but the example begins with "ENTER BATHROOM". Which is correct? --~~~~"
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18:46:30 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55522&oldid=54613 * Oerjan * (+209) /* There was already a TC-proof */ new section
18:48:53 <int-e> the more proofs the merrier
18:49:13 <int-e> it's just like brainfuck clones *runs* *ducks* *hides*
18:54:14 <oerjan> IZ NOT LIKE DAT AT ALL!
18:56:58 <oerjan> what is with this new spam that looks like five lines of some unreadable encoding
18:57:15 <fizzie> I think I got that too.
18:58:01 <int-e> huh I only got two random words in the subject, three in the body
18:58:17 <oerjan> i suppose it might look different (or be an exploit) in some other mail reader than pine
18:58:42 <fizzie> I think it is some sort of MIME-malformed message.
18:59:05 <fizzie> mutt shows some of the MIME bits as body text, which usually means it's malformed somehow.
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18:59:40 <fizzie> (Assuming it's the same thing. Mine's from "Beryl <>" with a subject line of "Re:High quality pharmaceutical intermediates".)
18:59:55 <oerjan> fizzie: i've got several
19:00:44 <oerjan> looking at the raw file, it seems to be that the base64 isn't actually decoded by alpine, but shown as plain text
19:00:59 <int-e> Heh, this guy sure knows his business idioms. "I have access to very vital information that can be used to move huge amount of money. I have done my homework very well [...]"
19:01:01 <oerjan> (it's marked as base64 encoded)
19:01:57 <oerjan> fizzie: mine is from pauline@shq.co.za with subject "Mamie"
19:02:33 <int-e> but no, I'm mostly getting loan offers.
19:03:32 <fizzie> "I am Maryam Jamili and I live in Kobane with my grand daughter."
19:03:46 <fizzie> Other people have just boring regular daughters, but Maryam's daughter is so grand.
19:03:49 <oerjan> and it's just five lines, so if it was something large it must have been cut off as well
19:04:52 <int-e> fizzie: it's motherly love I'm sure
19:05:02 <fizzie> The sales spam sometimes gets really very specific, too. Like this one guy peddling "Optical SFP&QSFP modules".
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19:05:34 <fizzie> I don't think a particularly large fraction of the general population needs to buy those.
19:06:08 <fizzie> I also get a bunch of SEO offers for esolangs.org.
19:06:10 <int-e> "we stole a truck and now we have all this stuff and no clue whom to sell it to"
19:07:29 <fizzie> There's a few with "Subject: uqbystd ynpeydk enxuxlb", body "omwuwjr ufjujpb eczinhh efsonfw azdussv", no MIME parts or anything, just a content-type text/plain.
19:07:38 <fizzie> I'm not sure what these are trying to accomplish.
19:09:23 <\oren\> FYI std::map::emplace does not REplace an existing element of the map
19:09:47 <\oren\> agh whyyyy this bug took a week to find, and it's a one line fix
19:10:38 <oerjan> . o O ( two letters? )
19:11:02 <\oren\> "hey, oren what did u do this week?" "changed foo2bar->emplace(foo,bar); to foo2bar[foo] = bar;"
19:12:34 <oerjan> . o O ( it only took him ten minutes, the rest was waiting for the build system )
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19:41:11 <Vorpal> hm I guess I didn't lose connection to IRC while upgrading my router firmware. neat
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19:42:41 <Vorpal> <\oren\> FYI std::map::emplace does not REplace an existing element of the map <-- right, it is like insert, not like operator[], iirc
19:43:07 <Vorpal> hm is there a replacing emplace?
19:45:04 <Vorpal> C++17 has insert_or_assign that doesn't require the value to be default constructible, but no replacing emplace
19:46:04 <Vorpal> that seems like a strangely missing operation
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20:04:15 <alercah> Vorpal: you can just do that yourself directly
20:07:43 <alercah> with an explicit destructor and placement new call
20:15:45 <HackEso> olist 1123: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:16:58 <HackEso> smlist 465: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
20:23:24 <esowiki> [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55523&oldid=55522 * Ais523 * (+236) /* There was already a TC-proof */ I guess we now have three?
20:25:05 <esowiki> [[Intrnt]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55524&oldid=55512 * Ais523 * (+197) Undo revision 55512 by [[Special:Contributions/Lol-md4|Lol-md4]] ([[User talk:Lol-md4|talk]]): generally speaking we don't delete this sort of page unless the author requests it; a dead link isn't a reason to delete a page
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21:33:46 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55525&oldid=55520 * Saka * (+20) /* Basics */
21:34:21 <esowiki> [[TPPL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55526&oldid=55525 * Saka * (-20) /* Examples */ tested
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23:03:43 <Galaxtone> I love how half of the things I thought had categories don't
23:03:59 <Galaxtone> well time to repolish all these things
23:04:17 <ais523> people keep forgetting
23:04:28 <ais523> I put a notice on the edit page and people /still/ keep forgetting
23:05:04 <ais523> I could go as far as telling the spam filter to shout at people who forget the categories but that seems like overkill, new people often fight enough with the spam filter as it is
23:05:16 <ais523> and an uncategorised page isn't exactly spam
23:05:44 <Galaxtone> question do you have any automatic script thing that adds uncategorized pages to some list like:
23:05:59 <Galaxtone> if not you could do that and people just come in and fix it or something
23:06:09 <Galaxtone> what applies here... time to look up all the categories.
23:06:47 <ais523> here you go: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedPages
23:07:31 <ais523> many of them are so bad that we just left them uncategorised in a hope that people would forget about them :-D
23:07:33 <ais523> but that doesn't apply to all of them
23:08:18 <ais523> lots of random brainfuck derivatives are like that
23:08:25 <Galaxtone> btw is uncategorized categories, a full list of all categories?
23:08:38 <Galaxtone> I'd think that you'd get to top level categories that go to all the others that aren't in a category
23:08:52 <ais523> we don't normally categorise categories, although some are categorised
23:08:54 <ais523> like the years, I think
23:09:08 <Galaxtone> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:UncategorizedCategories
23:09:51 <Galaxtone> it is categorized... under uncategorized categories
23:11:37 <ais523> oh, "Special:" and "Category:" are different
23:11:51 <Galaxtone> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Linear_bounded_automaton
23:11:55 <Galaxtone> "Wrong pluralization, please delete"
23:11:56 <ais523> "Special:" is autogenerated and the pages in it aren't "officialyl" categories
23:12:29 <ais523> wow, that happened so long ago that oerjan wasn't even an admin
23:13:03 <esowiki> [[Marbelous]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55527&oldid=49826 * Ais523 * (-1) fix link to the LBA category
23:13:31 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Linear bounded automaton]]": redundant to [[:Category:Linear bounded automata]], not used
23:14:31 <Galaxtone> I bet this wiki is 30-60% just these tiny hidden small problems.
23:15:17 <ais523> it's a common issue on wikis
23:15:26 <ais523> the number of people contributing is normally higher than the number of people doing quality control
23:15:33 <ais523> this happens everywhere, even Wikipedia
23:15:50 <Galaxtone> just need a 24/7 coffe-addicated lonely free-timer who is willing to do mindless editting
23:15:55 <ais523> so older/overlooked content is often malformatted, missing categories, or any number of other problems
23:15:59 <Galaxtone> and send them out into these wikis
23:16:26 <Galaxtone> "missing categories" probably a common thing
23:16:36 <Galaxtone> as theres so many categories one does not simply look through each subsubsubcategory
23:17:13 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Categorization
23:17:21 <ais523> is basically a list of the categories that apply to languages
23:17:28 <ais523> I run through that when creating a new page to make sure I don't miss anything
23:17:51 <Galaxtone> "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, search the related logs, or create this page."
23:18:08 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization
23:18:25 <ais523> (it's not a language called "Categorization" so it has the prefix to show that it's about the site itself)
23:18:27 <Galaxtone> This should be on the the side bar
23:18:59 <Galaxtone> I have not seen this at all and I doubt anyone I know knows about ti either
23:20:20 <ais523> it's linked from the edit page
23:20:25 <ais523> when you create a new page
23:20:43 <ais523> it's also linked from the Main Page
23:20:44 <Galaxtone> ok maybe change the font size to 64px xd
23:20:48 <ais523> "or find something more specific with the categories"
23:21:25 <ais523> but yes, one thing that many sites have discovered is that you can link something all over the place and most people will still miss it
23:21:27 <Galaxtone> but I guess it's just that effect of never completeness
23:21:42 <Galaxtone> where the whole population even if given something
23:22:14 <Galaxtone> hmmm well maybe they should try harder
23:22:27 <Galaxtone> put it in a place thats always there on ever place and make it big and flashy
23:23:00 <Galaxtone> if you animated it so it stood out
23:23:10 <ais523> people would assume it was an advert and tune it out?
23:23:19 <Galaxtone> on a site that doesn't have any ads?
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23:24:42 <Galaxtone> yes I usually don't spend much time just looking at the front page
23:24:52 <Galaxtone> I usually just go to the last visited page and jump around links
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23:28:29 <ais523> <code> for inline, <pre> for multiline
23:28:30 <Galaxtone> I knew it exists but I never actually tried to use it
23:28:47 <ais523> you can also use leading whitespace for multiline code blocks, although that'll do more parsing of the inside (and <pre><nowiki> will do less)
23:32:05 <Galaxtone> and it doesn't like indenting code
23:35:02 <Galaxtone> | style="text-align:center"| <code><nowiki>+</nowiki></code>
23:35:45 <ais523> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Tables
23:37:00 <Galaxtone> oh? you can do lists then sections using |+
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23:43:59 <ais523> many people are scared to edit pages
23:44:12 <ais523> in general you don't have to ask for permission to make an edit (just to make it again if someone disagrees with you :-P)
23:44:18 <Galaxtone> especially if they know it prints to irc
23:44:33 <Galaxtone> then there like omg this is not what the person did, there goign to be mad if I do this, aaaah i'll just leave.
23:44:38 <ais523> well, the flip side of that is that bad edits will go through by default so we want people to notice and fix them
23:45:00 <Galaxtone> so can I take something like commands and put it in a table?
23:46:41 <esowiki> [[Lennyfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55528 * Galaxtone * (+35) Made redirect to lenny fuck that you can actually type without the usage of the ctrl+c and ctrl+v brothers.
23:47:05 <Galaxtone> the language is small but what the heck
23:47:31 <esowiki> [[( )fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55529&oldid=50933 * Galaxtone * (+293) Reformatted the instructions
23:49:08 <ais523> one of the constants of the wiki is that it has a very large number of BF derivatives, most of which are too similar to each other
23:49:27 <ais523> you only really need one or two languages of a similar nature
23:49:34 <Galaxtone> I feel like either get the one who made the same idea but newer to get rid of it
23:49:51 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
23:50:32 <ais523> I guess the problem is that BF derivatives are too easy to write
23:50:36 <ais523> it doesn't take any real thought to make one
23:50:59 <Galaxtone> and alot of them probably dont answer basic questions
23:51:04 <ais523> here we go: BF except the - command multiplies the cell's value by -2 instead of decrementing it
23:51:05 <Galaxtone> like weather input is blocking or up to the interpreter
23:51:11 <shachaf> The good ones take thought to make.
23:51:12 <Galaxtone> like i feel like it should be explicit
23:51:18 <ais523> that's more interesting than over half of BF derivatives already :-P
23:51:36 <ais523> and I made it in about 10 seconds
23:51:53 <Galaxtone> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Consequential
23:51:58 <Galaxtone> what happened to half the instructions?
23:52:05 <ais523> they got deleted by mistake, AFIACT
23:52:10 <ais523> you can look in the page history to see the old version
23:52:16 <ais523> I didn't put them back because I wasn't sure what to do with it
23:52:51 <Galaxtone> but then mediawiki kah-poof's and its gone
23:53:13 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Consequential&diff=55482&oldid=55477
23:53:26 <ais523> looks like it was your edit that deleted them by mistake? the last six lines weren't copied over
23:53:55 <ais523> it's an easy mistake to make, though, and we store all the old versions to make this sort of thing easily fixable
23:53:56 <Galaxtone> i'll just ping the ownher for what they were suppose to do
23:54:27 <Galaxtone> i was merging the brainfuck and "extra action"
23:54:38 <Galaxtone> so that it was "strict" or "To the point" as to what it did.
23:54:58 <Galaxtone> however each command does something unwanted.
23:55:21 <Galaxtone> I predicate about 67 different versions that do something unwanted
23:55:49 <ais523> Consequential is interesting as BF derivatives go
23:56:01 <ais523> as you basically have eight instructions that are different from BF's
23:56:14 <ais523> the trick with writing the langauge is to look at the instruction as a whole, not the "base" instruction from BF
23:56:26 <ais523> you might be able to use the consequences for good, with the "main" purpose of the command being a drawback!
23:57:44 <Galaxtone> using 6 cells you can just run plain old brainfuck
23:58:05 <Galaxtone> ok apperently i'm dumb and i don't need to ask him
23:58:08 <ais523> are you sure? that seems like the sort of construction that's often possible but I didn't see an obvious way
23:58:16 <Galaxtone> it's litterly just brainfuck + extra action
23:58:28 <Galaxtone> its like ><- or something to do a +