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00:14:59 <boily> fungot: do you have issues with your machine? mouse freezing?
00:15:04 <boily> fungot: so you do!
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01:02:37 <esowiki> [[Talk:Call stack/Manipulation]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55566&oldid=55565 * Rdococ * (+2)
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02:31:49 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> seems a bit biased <-- just so you know i waited an extra day just to give y'all a chance hth
02:32:14 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 6h 1m 5s ago: how do you rate Ai-chan's swedish?
02:33:23 <HackEso> 5838:2015-07-12 <b_jonäs> ` o=bin/culprits-c && echo $\'#!/bin/sh\\n\'\'culprits "$@" | tr \\ \\\\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\\\n\\ \\ \' > "$o" && chmod a+x "$o"
02:33:42 <HackEso> c[uw]lprits lists the nicks responsible for a file or wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits FILE or `cwlprits ENTRY
02:35:40 <oerjan> `learn `culprits-c is like `culprits, but gives nicks with counts instead of repeating them.
02:35:42 <HackEso> Learned '`culprits-c': `culprits-c is like `culprits, but gives nicks with counts instead of repeating them.
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02:43:00 <imode> are there any resources around as to using a queue as RAM? I'm thinking queues as in queue automata. a naive thing to do would be to just keep cycling the queue until you hit the specific cell/address you want but I'm wondering if there's an alternative method.
02:43:59 <HackEso> #!/bin/sh \ culprits "$@" | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\n\ \
02:44:50 <shachaf> I was going to say, better to show them sorted by first appearance.
02:44:58 <shachaf> But I guess sorted by count might be ore meaningful.
02:46:06 <oerjan> isn't sorted by count what we usually are looking for anyway
02:47:33 <HackEso> 118 shachäf 53 oerjän 11 boil̈y 5 noloveinwaikik̈i 2 Jafët 1 nitïa 1 int-̈e 1 hppavilion[1̈]
03:00:48 <\oren\> oerjan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvB-kv9q7Pk
03:01:05 <oerjan> well timed, you just avoided a snarky @tell
03:06:31 <oerjan> \oren\: the "Hej på deg Monika" sounds nearly the right except that the "d" is somehow an "l". The rest of the song doesn't sound like much like real swedish except for the occasional word.
03:07:27 <oerjan> mind you, i don't remember the swedish original
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09:50:30 <esowiki> [[Qwertypy]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55567 * Saka * (+2260) Python clone
10:05:14 <Vorpal> that... seems pointless
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10:31:11 <Vorpal> @tell arseniiv Thinking of an esolang using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatrod_system
10:32:57 <Vorpal> the problem is how to specify it in a way in a text file that isn't a total mess
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10:36:35 <Vorpal> apparently there is a lot more details about it on the Swedish wikipedia
10:38:30 <Vorpal> Is there any heavily physics based esolang? I.e. where it would make sense to use a full blown 3D game engine to implement it
10:41:01 <Vorpal> arseniiv: pinball computing
10:41:22 <Vorpal> take a pinball game engine and compute stuff in it
10:42:12 <arseniiv> bet it would look very spectacular
10:43:01 <arseniiv> and to program on it, one maybe could utilize genetic programming, if it will be too hard
10:43:24 <arseniiv> (hm, how do people write in Malbolge? IDK)
10:44:05 <Vorpal> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer
10:55:39 <arseniiv> Vorpal: oh, have you seen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomogram ?
10:56:00 <arseniiv> they can compute pretty complex things sometimes
10:57:50 <Vorpal> ah yes, seems familiar, but didn't remember the name of it
11:06:05 <Vorpal> arseniiv: found this, which seems insane: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton_Rover_for_Extreme_Environments
11:07:26 <Vorpal> found it via mechanical computers
11:30:13 <fizzie> Neal Stephenson's Diamond Age book is all about (well, not quite, but a lot) "rod logic", which is like a hypothetical (probably unfeasible) nanotechnology-enabled version of that.
11:33:47 <Vorpal> something as simple as:
11:33:49 <Vorpal> CADD #1, #2, #3 If addr #1 is non-zero, add #2 to #3 (writing back result to #2)
11:33:49 <Vorpal> CHLT #1 If addr #1 is non-zero, halt the program
11:33:49 <Vorpal> The entire program will loop at the end
11:35:45 <Vorpal> I guess on top of that you would need to be able to fill the initial data area as well
11:37:24 <Vorpal> you could get rid of CHLT if you defined halting as "none of the CADD instructions were executed during the last loop"
11:38:28 <Vorpal> even if addition doesn't work for this, there may be some other instruction that would
11:42:39 <esowiki> [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55568&oldid=55543 * Saka * (+32)
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12:40:48 <lambdabot> EGSC 061220Z 04007KT 350V110 9999 FEW028 19/11 Q1015
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13:16:35 <arseniiv> CHLT #1 => almost misread this as CTHLH
13:17:51 <arseniiv> Cthulhu awakens in a neighboring thread, performs some slightly stochastic and potentially harmful computation and then cthlhalts
13:20:35 <arseniiv> also I didn’t get what these instructions are related to. :) They remind of Minsky machine
13:25:53 <Vorpal> arseniiv: trying to design a minimal computer that is TC without any branch instruction
13:26:29 <Vorpal> I looked at some OISCs, and all seem to have instructions like "do x and then conditionally branch"
13:27:14 <Vorpal> so I wondered if you could replace that branch by simple conditional execution
13:35:21 <arseniiv> hm without global looping you mentioned I think it should be impossible outright, but with that…
13:42:13 <Taneb> Vorpal: if you can conditionally modify an upcomic instruction it might be doable
13:42:25 <Taneb> But that's almost reimplementing conditional branching
13:45:57 <Vorpal> Taneb: I was thinking of separate code and data memory
13:46:59 <arseniiv> let’s see with recursive functions. 0 is representable, successor is too (with initial data), projections are also, but then we’re stuck with composition, if one of the functions uses the global loop: as we can’t subtract, we can’t switch off the code of the first one; we could switch on the second but not switch off the first. This isn’t a proof, of course, but it should be almost one
13:47:52 <arseniiv> and I think there would be even greater problems with recursion and μ
13:50:53 <Vorpal> arseniiv: we can subtract assuming 2-complement and a finite word size
13:51:51 <Vorpal> just add negative numbers
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13:52:17 <arseniiv> with finite word size, it’s even harder; how should we be able to address an unbounded count of memory cells
13:52:50 <arseniiv> with unbounded negative numbers — oh why not!
13:52:53 <Vorpal> err, that would be a 24-bit word, missed one pair of ff for 32-bit word
13:53:05 <Vorpal> arseniiv: surely bounded if you have a finite word size
13:53:26 <Vorpal> <arseniiv> with finite word size, it’s even harder; how should we be able to address an unbounded count of memory cells <-- code and data is separate here
13:53:47 <Vorpal> so you could have unbounded integers for addresses
13:53:57 <arseniiv> ah, stop, do we address indirectly?
13:54:14 <Vorpal> that wasn't the idea, but you might need this
13:54:40 <Vorpal> my idea was CADD taking 3 immediate address operands
13:54:50 <arseniiv> without indirect addressing or infinite numbers, you definitely should, or we will have bounded memory available to any one program
13:55:40 <Vorpal> okay but if they are indirect addresses we can't address infinite memory
13:55:53 <Vorpal> if we still use bounded data words
13:57:43 <Vorpal> arseniiv: so we can make it work with bignum signed integers for words
13:57:55 <Vorpal> in that case, do we still need indirect addressing?
14:00:01 <arseniiv> maybe not, but IDK what to do with recursion and μ yet (or maybe it’s better to try representing something other like BF machine)
14:02:02 <arseniiv> now we could swith on and off various segments of code (if only there’s not too many of them) while looping, it looks hopeful
14:03:29 <Vorpal> (if only there’s not too many of them) <-- As long as there is finitely many there shouldn't be an issue. It will be complicated yes, but not impossible
14:09:42 <arseniiv> having subtraction, copying, multiplication, division and remainder (seems all are yes), we could manipulate strings/arrays, then we should be able to implement a Minsky machine! Registers go in one array, the code in the other, and a cell for IP. Don’t I miss anything?
14:10:17 <arseniiv> but we can’t take the sign of a number
14:11:39 <arseniiv> we could rely on data being all nonnegative numbers except for −1 which we need explicitly
14:13:03 <arseniiv> then the task remaining is to demonstrate my claim in detail, but I’m laaazy :(
14:20:35 <arseniiv> oh, we couldn’t switch on/off _any_ code, could you add another argument to CADD, so that it will be
14:20:36 <arseniiv> CADD #0, #1, #2, #3 if #0 and #1 are both non-zero, add #2 to #3 (writing back to #2)
14:23:07 <arseniiv> also division etc. are unnecessary to show realizable, I’ve gone too meta
14:34:35 <arseniiv> also could it be not “and” but a “nand” instead, I couldn’t make JZDEC
14:43:41 <HackEso> carandycoin sqicoin noonchirlingcoin celucoin glucidecoin resolabocoin nigminiuscoin smicoin 8091114coin luicalcoin chilopolymphcoin bullcoin sonalcoin endslrocoin xbritcoin fisccoin cariumcoin vertcoin frestfcoin sethaxcoin
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14:48:05 <arseniiv> Vorpal: hm I even boldly suggest CADD have 5 arguments, #−1, #0, #1, #2, #3, all #−1..#1 should be nonzero to make addition
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15:00:23 <imode> anybody have some literature on doing stuff like binary arithmetic on a queue machine?
15:01:02 <arseniiv> (about arguments to CADD) two have been enough, horay!
15:19:41 <arseniiv> @tell Vorpal implementation of any Minsky machine, if CADD has two arguments as I’ve suggested: https://gist.github.com/arseniiv/17559458c07a254b84217452c72766e0
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19:38:33 <esowiki> [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55571&oldid=54876 * Cyantologist * (+332) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
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19:51:41 <wob_jonas> imode: I have an implementation of biginteger arithmetic, representing integers as basically a list of bits, in haskell. dunno if that helps.
19:52:15 <wob_jonas> you can also try to look for strange exercises in TAOCP
19:52:31 <wob_jonas> http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs
19:54:05 <wob_jonas> I also have arithmetic on Zeckendorf representation, and asked in this channel at some point how you could do arithmetic in nega-Zeckendorf, for which zzo38 actually wrote a solution
19:54:32 <wob_jonas> I recommend that if you want to be masochistic, it's much harder to understand how to do it than in binary
19:56:58 <wob_jonas> http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=989716 has add, subtract and compare in Zeckendorf, and http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=849259 has one in decimal although it uses the arithmetic built into perl for single-digit numbers, you could adapt that to binary
19:57:18 <imode1> huh? I already know how to do that.. I was wondering specifically for algorithms centerdd around queue machines.
19:57:22 <wob_jonas> in any case, I think doing anything like this with just one queue would be horribly inefficient, because just one queue sucks. avoid it if you can.
19:58:04 <wob_jonas> imode: for queue machines, I think you can merge two numbers so their digits alternate in a single pass, if you have a not too small alphabet
19:58:31 <wob_jonas> yeah, that would be impossible, sorry
19:58:47 <imode1> if you don't know what I'm talking about you can just not answer me. :P
19:58:57 <wob_jonas> but anything is hard on a queue machine
19:59:41 <imode1> a queue machine can simulate a turing machine's tape, so that's a way you can do things like unary and binary arithmetic.
20:00:18 <imode1> but I was just wondering if there were algorithms oriented towards the queue datastructure, rather than just letting a tape lie on top of it.
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20:15:32 <imode> wob_jonas: sorry for being rude, just been banging my head against the wall trying to find relevant literature. everything just seems to point to "hey, an FSM + queue == a turing complete automata", but I've been searching for algorithms that are typically executed on turing machines (things like arithmetic and comparisons, etc).
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21:53:19 <esowiki> [[Les Accents Franais]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=55578 * Digital Hunter * (+241) made a page
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22:08:06 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55579&oldid=55570 * Heavpoot * (+181)
22:12:12 <esowiki> [[Parent the Sizing]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=55580&oldid=55577 * Digital Hunter * (+264) meh
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