←2018-07-03 2018-07-04 2018-07-05→ ↑2018 ↑all
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01:16:43 <oerjan> wob_jonas: welcome back!
01:34:47 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56365&oldid=56339 * Oerjan * (-62) This doesn't follow the page conventions - x isn't a cell label, but apparently a hardcoded number, so this doesn't really count as an algorithm.
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01:40:23 <oerjan> <\oren\> shachaf: I am officially tasked with fixing the build system <-- it was inevitable.
01:42:06 <shachaf> \oren\: how are you fixing it
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02:22:25 <esowiki> [[Dd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56366 * A * (+43) Created page with "==dd== ==Syntax== dd print "dd" in console."
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02:51:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56367&oldid=55792 * A * (+253) /* brainfuck */
02:52:00 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56368&oldid=56367 * A * (-15) /* brainfuck */
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02:56:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56369&oldid=56368 * A * (+192) /* brainfuck */
02:59:27 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56370&oldid=56369 * A * (+148) /* brainfuck */
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03:12:13 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!0
03:12:18 <fungot> 0 ...out of time!
03:12:22 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!1
03:12:22 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
03:12:56 <oerjan> that seems to lack the termination part...
03:13:16 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56371&oldid=56370 * A * (-426) /* brainfuck */
03:13:26 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56372&oldid=56371 * A * (+0) /* brainfuck */
03:14:57 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56373&oldid=56372 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */
03:16:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56374&oldid=56373 * A * (-9) /* brainfuck */
03:18:39 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56375&oldid=56374 * A * (-6) /* brainfuck */
03:28:44 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56376&oldid=56375 * A * (+93) /* brainfuck */
03:32:12 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56377&oldid=56376 * A * (-136) /* brainfuck */
03:33:27 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56378&oldid=56377 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */
03:48:57 <wob_jonas> shachaf: what's a transducer, and why doesn't ex support transliterations (the equivalent of sed's y command)
03:49:56 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56379&oldid=56378 * A * (+94) /* brainfuck */
03:52:14 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56380&oldid=56379 * A * (-2) /* brainfuck */
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04:09:54 <shachaf> wob_jonas: A transducer is a state machine where the edges are labeled with input and output characters
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04:16:13 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56381&oldid=56380 * A * (-91) /* brainfuck */
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04:18:04 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56382&oldid=56381 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */
04:18:38 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56383&oldid=56382 * A * (+1) /* brainfuck */
04:25:55 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56384&oldid=56383 * A * (+0) /* brainfuck */
04:30:59 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!0
04:31:04 <fungot> 0 ...out of time!
04:31:06 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!1
04:31:06 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:32:11 <oerjan> he's starting to get good at it...
04:32:37 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56385&oldid=56384 * A * (-2) /* brainfuck */
04:32:38 <oerjan> although i don't like the nontermination, but the original version also seems to have that problem...
04:33:38 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!0
04:33:42 <fungot> 0 ...out of time!
04:33:44 <oerjan> ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!1
04:33:44 <fungot> 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...
04:33:55 <oerjan> unless it's just too slow for fungot
04:33:56 <fungot> oerjan: ( ( okay okay)) possibly will be shown on court t._v. all day laughter and i thought
04:40:05 <oerjan> tracing in vim, looks like it indeed loops infinitely.
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04:50:35 <wob_jonas> shachaf: ah ok
04:53:40 <shachaf> wob_jonas: A few days ago I described a thing I don't know how to do with sed.
04:53:50 <oerjan> xkcd was very easy to understand today.
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05:06:45 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and can't you just do a transducer thing by just adding a character marking the I/O head, with input on the right of it and output on the left, and then s/// and t all the transducing stuff?
05:09:19 <shachaf> I'm not sure?
05:09:33 <shachaf> When I get home I can tell you about my example
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05:17:22 <oerjan> the output of a transducer isn't necessarily deterministic as function of the input hth
05:58:13 <wob_jonas> oh, that reminds me, there was a conversation I wanted to continue
05:59:56 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> IMO Unicode should have used different codepoints for the two Turkish Is than for the Latin I" => I was thinking about this, and I now think that it either can't work, or there'd be a cop-out where some of those six characters rarely actually get used.
06:06:43 <wob_jonas> In particular, assume there's no cop-out, namely: English and Turkish are still widely used languages, pre-digital English and pre-digital Turkish texts exclusively use the current casing rules and this isn't close to changing when computers get invented, and ASCII still only contains the two English I letters.
06:09:56 <wob_jonas> Now suppose you have a typical computer loser who's typing a Turkish text in his Word documents on his Windows computer (or whatever tech is dominant around the 2000s) and prints them or sends them in email. If the turkish I are really encoded as four non-ASCII characters and these encodings are used, then this user will type those four turkish I i
06:09:56 <wob_jonas> n the word document, right?
06:10:45 <wob_jonas> And this will happen quasi-automatically, buy him just installing a Turkish localized Windows XP and MS Office and doing no customizations on his computer.
06:12:22 <wob_jonas> Then suppose that this loser decides to try to become a power user, and learn a bit of programming. He finds some dodgy C++ or Java tutorials on the internet or something, then types int main() { printf("hello, world\n"); return 0; }
06:15:55 <wob_jonas> My question is, at what point in the technology pipeline do those letter i in int and main and printf get converted to ASCII letter i, or otherwise understood by the compiler that the keyword means the same? How will this happen in such a way that it causes less of a PITA than the current situation for non-Turkish power users who are creating the t
06:15:55 <wob_jonas> ools involved, like the operating system and input method and the compiler and the command-line interpreter and the version control system??
06:17:39 <wob_jonas> And I know that conversation I'm continuing was back in more than two days, but I'm sorry, I was seriously in a hospital.
06:30:25 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56386&oldid=56385 * A * (+227)
06:31:49 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56387&oldid=56386 * A * (+17)
07:00:54 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56388&oldid=56387 * A * (+174) /* brainfuck */
07:01:24 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56389&oldid=56388 * A * (+11) /* brainfuck */
07:01:38 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56390&oldid=56389 * A * (+1) /* brainfuck */
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08:57:30 <wob_jonas> `? sgdq
08:57:32 <HackEso> SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity every summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/
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13:49:06 <esowiki> [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56391&oldid=56390 * Ais523 * (-521) rv; I'm not convinced this content adds to the article (also, being able to truth-machine falls well short of Turing-completeness; it *is* decent evidence that what you're dealing with is at least an FSM, but probably doesn't prove that)
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13:51:39 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shorten_your_Brainfuck_code has got to be a troll, right?
13:51:44 <ais523> at least it's amusing
13:53:14 <APic> Yup
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14:51:34 <wob_jonas> ais523: please logread near
14:51:38 <wob_jonas> https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-07-04.html#lnb
14:53:14 <ais523> hmm, maybe Unicode should have a separate codepoint for dot-varying-on-case i too then
14:53:29 <ais523> so at least when it's ambiguous, you know it's ambiguous, and there are steps you can take to clarify
14:53:59 <ais523> `unidecode -
14:54:00 <HackEso> ​[U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS]
14:54:11 <ais523> it wouldn't be any worse than the hyphen-minus situation
14:54:20 <Taneb> ais523: did you ever finish writing up your magic-is-TC thing?
14:54:21 <ais523> (which is also sometimes used as a dash!)
14:54:37 <ais523> Taneb: did you see the two pages I posted to the channel? I haven't written more than that
14:54:42 <ais523> I got stuck on the esolang side of things
14:55:05 <ais523> like, one issue is that we have to explain how we know that undecidable programs exist but we can't prove that any given program is undecidable
14:55:12 <ais523> and thus we can't give an example
14:55:20 <Taneb> ais523: a few weeks ago? Yeah, I saw them and with the help of a couple of firends who play magic I more or less understood it
14:55:23 <ais523> and another issue is that it'd be nice to give an example of a program that isn't known to be decidable
14:55:41 <ais523> but most programs like that are rather complex, especially when translated into The Waterfall Model
14:55:44 <ais523> so it'd be nice to have a simpler one
14:56:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: I actually think the right method for the turkish i is just telling the language of each part of the text in the higher-level markup language, such as with a HTML lang tag. that's what we do for every language-dependent thing ideally: unified han characters so the viewer can choose the font, unified cyrillic letters so the browser can use t
14:56:03 <wob_jonas> he right font for italic, text search, conventions of quoting, etc
14:56:07 <ais523> I'd like to find the simplest possible universal minsky machine, really (or at least one that's simple, even if it isn't proven simplest)
14:56:33 <ais523> arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition
14:56:55 <ais523> I know there's a big argument wrt Chinese and Japanese rendering (which aren't the same, and yet Unicode doesn't distinguish between Chinese and Japanese characters)
14:57:29 <wob_jonas> oh yeah, by the way, I also disappeared for 18 days and haven't read your M:tG thing yet because of that
14:58:11 <ais523> Taneb: did your friends who play magic agree with the explanation of Omni-Tell? It's always a bit awkward doing deck techs for a deck you've never played
14:59:05 <Taneb> ais523: they found it reasonable, I think
14:59:13 <wob_jonas> also, I think I now sort of understand one reason why there are so many brainfuck-alikes
14:59:47 <ais523> because most people (asdf/a being an exception) make derivatives only of languages they think they understand?
15:00:35 <wob_jonas> I have a SECOND esolang joke in my head that could be easily done as "Brainfuck with <modifications>", and I must resist doing that. For the first such idea, luckily I can put the joke in Consumer society, but I haven't figured out the brainfuckless context for the second joke yet.
15:01:29 <ais523> some jokes only work when you're working from a base everyone already understands
15:01:34 <ais523> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte, for example
15:01:43 <ais523> but in that case starting from practical languages works even better than starting from BF
15:02:14 <wob_jonas> "arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition" => wait what? what "each language"? you mean even spanish and portugese would have different letters from each other? norwegian and danish?
15:04:04 <wob_jonas> as for Chinese and Taiwanese and Japanese kanji, I heared rumours that the Han unification was done back when people thought Unicode would only have a space of 2**16 code points, and they were afraid of running out of that if they didn't do Han unification.
15:04:15 <wob_jonas> but I don't know how true that is
15:04:54 <ais523> wob_jonas: they'd be related, as in Unicode would know that they were "the same letter" and font systems would render them the same way by default, but in different blocks in case different, e.g., collation rules are needed
15:05:11 <ais523> I guess you could merge languages which had identical casing and collation and rendering and grapheme boundaries, but that's fairly rare
15:05:32 <ais523> just compare Hungarian "gy" to English "gy", for example, they're an identical sequence of letters but they're a unit in Hungarian and not in English
15:05:49 <Taneb> Like the Dutch IJ?
15:05:59 <int-e> Hard tо imagine Unicοde without duplicates.
15:06:04 <ais523> I'm not as familiar with Dutch but it wouldn't surprise me
15:06:23 <ais523> I guess there are other examples, e.g. oe in German is actually equivalent to ö
15:06:30 <wob_jonas> ais523: Forte is not just a joke though. I'm thinking of actual jokes, ones that would be categorized joke language on esolang if they were brainfuck-based. and my second joke will probably be like that, only using some base other than brainfuck, if I ever write it up (this is a joke that needs some research by me before I can tell it)
15:06:57 <int-e> `unidecode оοo
15:07:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: I just talked about the Hungarian sz/cs/ny/gy and I disagree, they're still two letters in Hungarian. http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2018-06.html%23d.2018-06-11.2525#comment-24610
15:08:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: what's the status of your omnitell writeup? is there an updated version from those two draft pages you showed before I disappeared?
15:08:36 <ais523> no, I haven't changed it
15:08:49 <ais523> also my argument is that gy collate together in Hungarian and thus they're different from English, where they don't
15:08:54 <ais523> I don't think you disagree with that
15:09:21 <wob_jonas> ais523: I don't disagree with that, but I still say that they're not one letters just because they collate together
15:10:14 <Taneb> wob_jonas: my understanding of ais523's argument is because they collate different, they are different letters to the English gy, or could be treated as such
15:10:23 <ais523> well, I treat them as a unit, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the same letter
15:10:38 <ais523> "qu" is pretty much a unit in English, apart from in a few loanwords, although that has a different nature
15:10:57 <ais523> Taneb: right, you should be able to collate text without parsing things like HTML tags that specify the language
15:11:06 <ais523> and you should be able to collate it without assuming that it's all written in a single language
15:11:35 <wob_jonas> ais523: my oxford dictionary ignores spaces when sorting headword, so eg. the order of headwords at one point I randomly opened the dictionary is "folk rock; folk song; folksy; folk tale; folkweave; folky". would you make the "k " a single character just so that collation works?
15:12:35 <ais523> no, in that case it's the space that has an unusal collation property (i.e. not collating at all)
15:12:46 <ais523> there are some similar situations, e.g. hyphens don't collate in many languages/contexts
15:12:49 <wob_jonas> ais523: oh wait, are you saying that they should be a separate character because you want to collate words differently based on their language in a single list? because that never works
15:12:55 <wob_jonas> we just don't do that
15:13:16 <ais523> I agree that it never works, but I don't see why it couldn't work if people tried to make it work
15:13:26 <wob_jonas> we choose one collation rule and collate all words with that rule in the list, even if a minority of words is from a different language
15:14:16 <wob_jonas> it would be impractical, because you can't expect people reading the list to know all the collation rules for all languages
15:14:31 <wob_jonas> even paper library catalogs, which are pretty heavy on rules, don't do that
15:15:03 <wob_jonas> ok, admittedly some do
15:16:42 <wob_jonas> I guess you recall the example from TAOCP about sorting a library catalog where leading article words in any languageare ignored for collation iff they're in nominative case
15:17:28 <wob_jonas> but in that case the card itself displays the title by either moving the article to the back or by underlining the keyword to sort by with a red pen
15:18:58 <wob_jonas> and I guess you could make the case for just Hungarian too that you may need some way to distinguish between an accidental z-s combination (as in "egészség" and "szemeteszsák") from a real letter zs, and unicode doesn't help you there,
15:19:29 <wob_jonas> people have used manual exception lists for that, and some TeX macros, though the letter mostly for hyphenation rather than collation
15:19:35 <ais523> in France it's apparently common to capitalise the sort key in lists of names
15:20:17 <ais523> wob_jonas: "szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring (except that it probably doesn't cause a time paradox)
15:21:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: we do that too to show which of your personal names are the family name, because social conventions dictate that the person addressing you must know that, people use both western and Hungarian order for their name on English CVs and the like, and many words are both common family names and male given names in Hungarian
15:22:03 <wob_jonas> I have my family name all uppercased in my current CV for example
15:22:12 <wob_jonas> that CV being written in English
15:22:13 <ais523> in England it can be hard to interact with people who you know are from a culture which uses the opposite order for names
15:22:24 <ais523> as they might have swapped the names for our benefit or might not, so we don't know which name is which
15:23:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, it's even worse with Japenese and Vietnamese names, because most people don't know enough of their culture to even make an educated guess of which part of the name is the family name
15:24:02 <ais523> there are some video games which were translated from Japanese to English but proper nouns were left the same
15:24:13 <ais523> after playing a few of those you can often make a good guess at recognising Japanese personal names
15:25:49 <wob_jonas> and then there's the special problem of guessing if a name is an Icelandic name or a Western name with a family name that sounds like an Icelandic patronym
15:26:21 <ais523> in most cases that doesn't matter, though
15:27:02 <wob_jonas> why not? it matters for the same social conventions
15:27:12 <wob_jonas> (and collation too)
15:30:16 <wob_jonas> eg. if you're in a hospital and want to refer to a specific doctor who's treated you, you shall call them their family name plus a rank in some order, but never call them their given name plus a title (which depends on their rank and gender) if they have a family name because that would be insulting. there's a workaround of using their full name, b
15:30:16 <wob_jonas> ut that's costly.
15:32:47 <ais523> no, I mean a family name and patronym are used in much the same contexts
15:32:58 <ais523> also, it's often a bad idea to try to work out what to call someone from their name
15:33:14 <ais523> in England it's quite common for the name that someone prefers to be called by not to match /any/ of their official names
15:33:19 <wob_jonas> guessing the right title is also tricky by the way if you haven't yet gotten a paper receipt listing their name. I think that's why some hospital departments have a prominent list of doctors working their with their ranks (and sometimes photos)
15:34:18 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, that's true only for Russian patronyms, not for Icelandic patronyms
15:34:28 <ais523> oh, I see
15:34:37 <ais523> you don't use title+patronym, right
15:35:01 <ais523> but that said, I don't think you'd use title+forename either
15:36:25 <wob_jonas> what's a forename?
15:37:47 <wob_jonas> for icelandic names, you use the given name (plus often a title before or after) in contexts where you'd use a family name (plus title) with a western or Hungarian name, and you use the given name plus patronym for disambiguation contexts when you'd use the full name for a western or Hungarian name
15:38:52 <wob_jonas> only it's impossible to guess if the name is actually Icelandic, or it's westernized, similar to how it's hard to guess which name is the family name in some Hungarian names that might be swapped in a western context
15:39:39 <ais523> "forename" is "given name" in cultures which put that first
15:39:47 <ais523> I think it's put first in Iceland, isn't it?
15:40:14 <ais523> but over here in England we're given multiple names and refuse to use any of them :-P
15:40:17 <wob_jonas> and some people with Icelandic names do westernise their names in some contexts
15:40:26 <ais523> I got annoyed when my ISP refused to call me "Alex"…
15:41:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: I see. I didn't know that word. I thought it was just called a given name or a christian name, or just plain "name" on forms that have a "surname" field
15:41:21 <wob_jonas> I didn't even know there was a special word for given names that come first
15:42:49 <ais523> it's by far the most common in British English when we're talking about our own culture, "given name" has only become popular fairly recently because it's more culture-independent
15:43:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: wasn't it "first name" and "last name" back when they just assumed western order?
15:43:58 <ais523> when you're talking to children, perhaps; "forename" and "surname" was more common
15:44:10 <wob_jonas> ok
15:45:11 <wob_jonas> and sure, some nicknames are completely unguessable, in both ways, as in, you can't guess the nickname from the name, and you can't guess the name from a short set of names on a list from just the nickname
15:45:25 <wob_jonas> sometimes the nickname is not even related to the full name
15:46:10 <wob_jonas> even in IRL contexts as opposed to IRC or other internet-based forums where people deliberately obfuscate their real name
15:48:07 <ais523> I've introduced myself to people as callforjudgement in real life…
15:48:55 <wob_jonas> and there are even people on the internet who insist on two different nicknames for different contexts
15:49:19 <ais523> like me
15:49:34 <ais523> there's no particular reason to have consistent nicknames unless you want people to recognise you cross-context
15:49:43 <wob_jonas> sure
15:50:18 <wob_jonas> I'm confused by the callforjudgement though, I assumed it was just a fallback irc nick for when you have multiple connections
15:50:28 <wob_jonas> I thought you just always used ais523
15:50:54 <ais523> in the contexts where you know me, I indeed use ais523 as a primary nick; I set callforjudgement as a secondary nick here to keep it reserved
15:51:02 <ais523> because I use it on some other sites
15:51:22 <wob_jonas> I see
15:51:24 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
15:51:26 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
15:51:40 <ais523> although recently my connection failures haven't been jumping over to it so I'd better reset the timeout!
15:52:44 <wob_jonas> I know David Madore uses his real name and two different unrelated nicknames actively, plus had at least one other nickname in the past, but he doesn't hide the connections and I don't really understand how he chooses between which name he uses
15:53:03 <wob_jonas> except the obvious part where he uses his full name in formal academic contexts
15:53:04 <ais523> I use callforjudgement for gaming
15:53:09 <ais523> and ais523 for programming
15:53:32 <ais523> unfortunately, there's enough of an overlap WRT TASing/speedrunning that I ended up having to use ais523 for that as there'd be an inconsistency no matter what I chose
15:54:11 <wob_jonas> I just use b_jonas_ and b_jonas__ as IRC fallbacks because those are sane defaults, plus I used b_jonas-2 at some point
15:54:45 <ais523> I use ais523_ specifically for when I'm using someone else's computer
15:54:54 <ais523> more underscores indicate sufficiently more ridiculous setups
15:55:07 <wob_jonas> lol
15:55:46 <ais523> I think I used ais523___ once, I can't remember the exact setup but I think IE6 might have been involved (years after it had become a complete joke and wasn't current even among IE versions)
15:56:10 <wob_jonas> as for me, on some forums I've been calling myself "jonas" for so long that switching to "b_jonas" would be confusing to readers now, but "jonas" isn't unambiguous enough (there's even a forum with a "Jonas" unrelated to me), so I'm stuck and don't know what to do
15:56:13 <ais523> also I didn't mean "sufficiently"
15:56:18 <ais523> I can't figure out which word I did mean though
15:56:42 <ais523> commensurably, perhaps?
15:57:04 <wob_jonas> "incrementally"?
15:57:20 <ais523> could be
15:58:35 <ais523> (incidentally, this serves as yet another trivial disproof of the sapir-whorf hypothesis; I find that disproofs like this come up once every few years, so while rare, they should be common enough for everyone to be aware of them if they've been paying attention to it for a while)
16:01:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: when I read English, such as on IRC, I usually think in English now unless I'm very tired. (I'm often ashamed about that.) In that case, when I don't know the right word in English, I imagine sort of a buzz replacing the word, and still finish the sentence in my head and understand it. Is that another disproof?
16:01:35 <ais523> probably
16:01:47 <ais523> any situation where you think a word without knowing what the word is should be a disproof
16:02:21 <wob_jonas> ok
16:03:36 <wob_jonas> When I was thinking about the turkish i situation, I spent an inordinate amount of time thinking of workarounds (cop-outs) involving time travel by the way.
16:04:49 <ais523> hmm, somehow I'm reminded of Feather
16:04:59 <wob_jonas> The easiest method with time-travel would of course to convince Kemal Attatürk to not use the turkish i, or just kill or incapacitate him and hope the next language reformer won't come up with such a ridiculous thing.
16:06:41 <wob_jonas> A more tricky method is to bribe or threaten Noah Webster to use the turkish i in English texts, then hope that catches on and that with the US being a major superpower back then and inventing computers, everyone else in the word would use the turkish casing rule.
16:07:52 <ais523> probably Gutenberg would make a better person to bribe
16:07:59 <wob_jonas> As in, you'd make everyone use İ as the capital of i, so much that it becomes an ASCII letter, and I becomes an obscure glyph that you only see in old books.
16:08:07 <ais523> that way you affect most European languages, not just English
16:08:23 <ais523> (the printing press was mostly responsible for, e.g., þ dying out from English)
16:10:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: but wasn't Gutenberg specifically trying to make printed books look as similar to manuscript codexes at his time, even to the extent of making the typesetting technology more difficult by having different variants of types for the same letter so they look just like in manuscripts?
16:11:56 <wob_jonas> But you're right that there's a risk that some European languages get stuck using the old conventions even if English changes.
16:14:42 <wob_jonas> An even bigger overkill cop-out would be to somehow use time-travel to make the US less powerful, have Turkey become a superpower, and have them pioneer telegraphs so that the two different pairs of i are already there in all character encodings, even baudot. But I think that wouldn't work, because then they'd never have changed away from arabic sc
16:14:42 <wob_jonas> ript.
16:17:40 <wob_jonas> By the time they switched to latin, printed books in latin script and non-turkish languages would have been too influential.
16:19:10 <wob_jonas> Making Vietnam a superpower would also not work for the same reason.
16:25:29 <wob_jonas> So my safest bet for a time-travel fix is still just bribing Kemal Atatürk, https://www.xkcd.com/567/ style
16:26:35 <wob_jonas> That would still leave you with a Vietnamese dotted I, but that's a lesser problem, it's only comparable to the cyrillic italic letter differences.
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16:39:01 <wob_jonas> Also for some reason I was thinking a lot that we should reform Hungarian spelling so that it's easier to guess the pronunciation of transliterated words and loanwords. In particular, the semi-vowel u should be properly distinguished from the vowel u, such as by writing them as w or ŭ. The most common word where that appears is aŭtó, and all greek-
16:39:01 <wob_jonas> originating compounds that start by aŭto.
16:39:58 <ais523> hmm, in English, au is the same as aw, but also the same as or
16:40:08 <ais523> at least in most dialects
16:40:19 <ais523> so I think of au as being a vowel of its own, rather than a combination of a+u
16:40:40 <ais523> I guess ou/ow is similar
16:40:54 <ais523> although ou has a number of possible pronounciations
16:41:14 <ais523> out, southern, bought…
16:41:30 <wob_jonas> Also, we should transliterate chi from ancient greek as ch instead of kh, because "kh" is a very common combination to appear randomly in inflected or suffixed words, so much that such occurrences dwarf the number of "kh" used as chi.
16:43:11 <ais523> well, ch and kh are pronounced differently
16:43:15 <ais523> very differently
16:43:23 <ais523> so people use kh to give a better impression of how it sounds
16:44:01 <ais523> I can see a decent argument for getting rid of the letter c altogether, and using k or s instead, but that means you need to find some other way to write ch (as it's neither a kh nor an sh)
16:50:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: I'm talking about ancient greek, not modern greek, and you can't use k or s instead because those are already used for kappa and sigma resp
16:51:34 <wob_jonas> oh, you mean in English or French?
16:51:41 <wob_jonas> yes, there the "ch" would be a bad choice
16:51:44 <ais523> in English, yes
16:52:32 <ais523> come to think of it, what's the difference between chi, kappa, and kappa followed by an aspirated vowel?
16:52:33 <wob_jonas> I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin.
16:53:12 <ais523> ah right
16:53:14 <wob_jonas> I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin.
16:53:42 <ais523> come to think of it, "ch" is something different yet again in Scottish
16:53:55 <ais523> it's more like Welsh ll than English ch/sh/kh
16:54:18 <wob_jonas> "ch" also sometimes appears as an accidental combination, like "kh", but less often, because "c" is a rare letter, and even rarer at the end of morphemes
16:55:24 <ais523> right, "c" at the end of a word in English is (as far as I can tell) always hard, and nearly always spelled as "k" instead
16:55:33 <wob_jonas> ais523: the "kh" situation annoys me because in Russian (and most other languages not using the latin script) we transliterate the same sound with "h", so we have three different spellings for one sound for no reason.
16:55:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, again I'm saying "ch" appears as random combination in Hungarian rarely
16:56:07 <ais523> ah, OK
16:56:14 <wob_jonas> English doesn't have any inflections that start with "h"
16:56:20 <ais523> my experience with Hungarian is that it gets a lot of random letter combinations
16:56:47 <wob_jonas> but Hungarian has "-hez" for nouns and the suffix "-het" which are both quite common
16:56:54 <ais523> and we can form compound words where the second part of the compound starts with h
16:57:13 <wob_jonas> yes, that can happen
16:58:22 <wob_jonas> but in general, "k" and "h" have swapped frequency in Hungarian vs English. English has a lot of "h" (because of the word "the") and few "k", whereas Hungarian has a lot of "k" (mostly because of conjugation and declination) but very few "h" (and even some mute "h")
17:00:16 <wob_jonas> which is, by the way, the second or third reason why Dvorak keyboard layout for Hungarian is a bad idea, the first reason being that "á" and "é" are too common.
17:03:51 <wob_jonas> the second reason is that "sz" is very common. we missed the opportunity around 1900 to use a single letter for "sz", and it would be very hard to fix now.
17:04:42 <ais523> Hungarian sz is English s, and Hungarian s is English… sh?
17:04:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, correct
17:05:06 <ais523> maybe we should be using a single letter for sh :-D
17:05:27 <ais523> we could use j, nobody will miss it :-D
17:05:41 <wob_jonas> the worst part is that Hungarian "c" used to be spelled as "cz", so there was an opening when we could have respelled "sz" as "c".
17:05:59 <wob_jonas> the Hungarian "c" is a totally rare letter, rarer even than "cs"
17:06:22 <ais523> (come to think of it, the language name Clojure uses j in a position that makes an sh sound in the word "closure"…)
17:07:03 <wob_jonas> ais523: really? I think it's a voiced soft j sound in "closure", as in, the "measure" sound
17:07:09 <wob_jonas> let me check my dict
17:08:28 <ais523> oh, you're probably right
17:08:39 <ais523> many accents don't distinguish those sounds clearly
17:09:03 <wob_jonas> dict agrees with me
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17:18:22 <wob_jonas> The best outcome IMO would have been to spell Hungarian "sz" as "s", Hungarian "s" as "c", Hungarian "cs" as "č" or "ć", Hungarian "zs" as "ž" or "ź", Hungarian "c" as "š" or "ś", and Hungarian "z" still as "z";
17:18:59 <wob_jonas> but for that you'd have to time travel back at least 600 years, as opposed to just the simple partial fix of spelling "sz" as "c".
17:28:39 <wob_jonas> Another alternative that would perhaps work is to spell Hungarian with a variant of the modern Ukranian alphabet, but with acute accent for marking long vowels.
17:29:38 <wob_jonas> But that's even more impossible historically, because the modern cyrillic alphabets are way too new.
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17:35:37 <wob_jonas> Whereas the ŭ respelling could conceivably happen if the Academy decided to decree its use and made the old spelling acceptible but depreciated.
17:36:29 <wob_jonas> Oh, that reminds me. I have a question.
17:38:36 <wob_jonas> In the Kalevala, "Kaukomieli", the alternate name for Lemminkejnen, is it supposed to be four syllables or five syllables? It appears as both in Rácz István's translation, and I'm not sure which one is the error.
17:41:10 <wob_jonas> There are a few other cases where this printing of the translation has 9-syllable half-lines (rather than the expected 8-syllable ones), apparently by mistake, but the "Kaukomieli" part is very annoying because I can't tell which of at least two lines containing it are mistakes, the ones where it's used as four syllable or the ones where it's used
17:41:10 <wob_jonas> as five syllable.
17:42:14 <wob_jonas> I'm asking this here because there are people who speak Finnish.
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17:45:51 <wob_jonas> I should probably check the older edition for some of those mistaken lines by the way.
17:46:45 <wob_jonas> I'll also want to try the other translations, because I'm not quite satisfied with Rácz István's, due to the very high standards in poetry translation that I must compare him.
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17:57:59 <wob_jonas> ais523 (who isn't here, I know): in the Omni-tell thing, if the original tournament deck includes 8 Wishes, then how can you tell that the deck would still be tourey-viable if you modify the sideboard?
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18:27:26 <wob_jonas> Also, once ais523 gets his writeup on the M:tG TC proof in a good state, we'll seriously have to consider M:tG-without-Rotlung-Reanimator as an esolang of whose computational abilities we care about.
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20:10:18 <moony> fungot, src
20:10:18 <fungot> moony: um in the evening and stuff see we can't leave the classroom now
20:10:28 <moony> where's fungot's SRC again? :P
20:10:28 <fungot> moony: over memorial day sigh like service that was on that plane
20:11:12 <moony> fungot, github
20:11:12 <fungot> moony: yeah i i always wonder if if it's made known or if it's boring or you know you
20:11:16 <moony> fungot, source
20:11:16 <fungot> moony: ( ( sigh you know what this is christie)) doesn't make any sense
20:11:22 * moony dies
20:12:36 <moony> +src
20:12:40 <moony> +help
20:12:42 <moony> +ping
20:12:50 <moony> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
20:13:29 <wob_jonas> ^source
20:13:29 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
20:13:35 <wob_jonas> moony: ^
20:17:03 <moony> thanks
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20:27:04 <wob_jonas> Oh, and by the way, I'll be afk starting tomorrow for four days, for a real world travel event, so don't be surprised if I'm not here..
20:31:25 <wob_jonas> ais523: in "Magic: the Gathering is Undecidable: The Setup", you say "Most notably, this gives us arbitrarily many casts of Force of Will with which we can counter anything counterable our opponent tries to do, arguably enough for a win in most gamestates as it is."
20:32:18 <wob_jonas> but that doesn't seem right, because the combo you mention can't be done instant speed, and the opponent could cast more spells than you have Force of Wills
20:33:08 <wob_jonas> you can only repeat that combo at sorcery speed
20:36:02 <wob_jonas> "We'll hold some Forces of Will back in case the opponent has any free spells in their hand; as far as I can tell, every spell that can be cast for free can be countered. So the only potential problems would be uncounterable spells powered by something like Simian Spirit Guide, which the opponent is unlikely to have." => no, another problem would b
20:36:02 <wob_jonas> e abilities on cards in their hand, such as channel, but those usually cost mana too
20:49:48 <esowiki> [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Language * New user account
20:52:23 <esowiki> [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56392&oldid=56361 * Language * (+175) /* Introductions */
21:03:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: in the setup of the clean opponent state, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons and a Seedborn Muse and two Amoeboid changelings each enchanted by a Diplomatic Immunity, and turn their Sigarda and Muse changelings in each of your upkeeps?
21:04:35 <wob_jonas> The Ghoul won't work on them because all four creatures have all creature types, and you can't target anything.
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21:12:15 <wob_jonas> Heck, the Sigarda doesn't even need a Diplomatic Immunity, it has hexproof built in.
21:14:06 <wob_jonas> Alternately, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons that got turned into typeless by a use of Animate Artifact and
21:14:11 <wob_jonas> ignore that
21:15:04 <wob_jonas> just take the original question: a Sigarda, Host of Herons, a Seedborn Muse, and two Amoeboid Changelings, three of those protected by Diplomatic Immunity
21:17:07 <wob_jonas> I admit this is pretty unlikely in a real game
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21:34:51 <wob_jonas> ""szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring" => yes, which is why I started spelling "szemeteszsák" (the only non-rare word where it doesn't resolve to "sz"+"s") as "szemetes-zsák" these days, even though that's technically not allowed by the Academy rules.
22:03:07 <wob_jonas> I guess you could still Trickbind the use of the Amoeboid
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22:38:26 <esowiki> [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56394&oldid=55710 * HereToAnnoy * (+67) linked to a language about a wiki
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23:11:22 <wob_jonas> but he could have three Amoeboids
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