2018-07-01: 00:20:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:29:03 -!- variable has joined. 00:32:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:40:48 -!- Remavas has joined. 00:43:26 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:02:58 -!- trout has joined. 01:05:46 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:17:27 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:22:29 -!- Naergon has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 01:35:05 -!- variable has joined. 01:38:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:46:33 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:00:09 -!- aloril__ has joined. 02:03:07 mniip: So I don't think the differential form sense of "dx" is compatible with the Leibniz notation sense. 02:03:20 I've been trying to figure out how the latter works for a while and I'm still not sure, but I'm pretty sure it's different. 02:03:47 shachaf, well are you familiar with integrals of second kind 02:03:57 \int ( \vec F, \vec dr ) 02:04:10 aka \int Fx dx + Fy dy + Fz dz ... 02:04:31 that's kind of the stuff 02:04:55 Maybe? 02:05:01 Probably not too much. 02:07:14 What's the context? 02:08:26 -!- trout has joined. 02:10:40 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:23:59 -!- rand0macc3ss has joined. 02:25:00 shachaf, smooth manifolds and analysis on them 02:25:50 chapters 3 and 4 just covered tangent and cotangent bundles, and a differential of a function as a cotangent bundle section (covector field) 02:26:25 hoping to understand integration on manifolds one day 02:27:57 me too hth 02:41:17 -!- variable has joined. 02:41:47 shachaf, it's kind of interesting how there's like a triple contravariance at play when we're considering cotangent spaces 02:42:33 ? 02:42:43 you have your manifold M and then there's smooth functions M -> R, and then there's derivations (M -> R) -> R that are tangent vectors 02:43:00 then cotangent vectors are the dual of that, i.e linear functionals of type ((M -> R) -> R) -> R 02:43:56 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:44:35 so 'dx' is the tangent covector (linear functional) that maps d/dx (a tangent vector) to 1, and all other basis vectors to 0 02:45:15 and 'd/dx' is a vector that computes the derivative of a function across the local 'x' coordinate 02:53:14 -!- rand0macc3ss has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:54:42 -!- rand0macc3ss has joined. 02:54:51 -!- rand0macc3ss has quit (Changing host). 02:54:51 -!- rand0macc3ss has joined. 02:56:14 -!- rand0macc3ss has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:56:43 -!- rand0macc3ss has joined. 03:13:16 -!- trout has joined. 03:16:16 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:19:44 -!- rand0macc3ss has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:20:02 -!- rand0macc3ss has joined. 03:21:15 -!- rand0macc3ss has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:26:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 03:34:03 -!- rand0macc3ss has joined. 03:34:44 -!- rand0macc3ss has quit (Changing host). 03:34:44 -!- rand0macc3ss has joined. 03:45:14 -!- rand0macc3ss has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:46:15 -!- normaluser has joined. 03:47:29 -!- variable has joined. 03:48:58 -!- normaluser has quit (Excess Flood). 03:49:31 . o O ( their network access seems a bit random ) 03:50:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:53:46 -!- normaluser has joined. 03:54:30 d/dx is a tangent vector? 03:54:44 -!- normaluser has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:15:56 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:18:40 -!- trout has joined. 04:22:11 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:30:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:39:28 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:40:52 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Client Quit). 04:44:02 -!- trout has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 04:47:57 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56203&oldid=55729 * A * (+672) 04:48:02 [[Talk:Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56204&oldid=54353 * Challenger5 * (+260) /* Another Python Interpreter */ new section 04:50:33 -!- variable has joined. 04:51:02 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56205&oldid=56203 * A * (+39) /* Stuck */ 04:52:23 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56206&oldid=56205 * A * (+63) /* Stuck */ 04:56:03 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56207&oldid=56206 * A * (+288) /* Aha! */ 04:57:08 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56208&oldid=56207 * A * (+10) /* Step 1 (Overflow Control) */ 04:57:20 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56209&oldid=56208 * A * (+9) /* Step 2 (Array I/O) */ 04:57:36 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56210&oldid=56209 * A * (+0) /* Step 2 (Array I/O)(CMD = 6) */ 04:57:52 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56211&oldid=56210 * A * (+9) /* Step 3 (Combine < and +) */ 04:58:03 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56212&oldid=56211 * A * (+9) /* Step 4 (Jump command) */ 04:58:20 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56213&oldid=56212 * A * (+9) /* Step 5 (Putting loop on array) */ 05:03:16 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56214&oldid=56213 * A * (+299) /* Step 5 (Putting loop on array) (CMD = 2) */ 05:03:49 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56215&oldid=56214 * A * (+0) /* Step 6 (Aha! Using current cell) (CMD = 1) */ 05:04:43 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56216&oldid=56215 * A * (+71) /* Step 6 (Aha! Using current cell) (CMD = 1) */ 05:05:18 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56217&oldid=56216 * A * (-38) /* Step 5 (Putting loop on array) (CMD = 2) */ 05:05:39 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56218&oldid=56217 * A * (+38) /* Step 6 (Aha! Using current cell) (CMD = 1) */ 05:05:55 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56219&oldid=56218 * A * (-67) /* Stuck */ 05:10:08 [[BF instruction extension]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56220 * A * (+184) Created page with "Our goal is to extend the instructions of Brainf*ck as far as possible. Anything that you thought of could be one of the instructions. We'll atart with the standard commands:..." 05:10:47 [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56221&oldid=55852 * A * (+31) 05:11:29 [[Works in progress]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56222&oldid=56221 * A * (+0) 05:11:45 [[BF instruction extension]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56223&oldid=56220 * A * (+0) 05:13:04 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56224&oldid=56194 * A * (+31) /* See also */ 05:15:54 [[User talk:A]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56225 * Asdf * (+60) Created page with "I allow you to use my inplementation in C++. --[[User:Asdf]]" 05:22:23 -!- trout has joined. 05:22:51 -!- trout has quit (Client Quit). 05:23:56 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56226&oldid=56225 * A * (+122) 05:23:56 yeah, they're _so_ two different people. 05:25:19 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:27:27 [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56227&oldid=43623 * A * (+214) /* When to do stuff */ 05:30:31 [[Esolang:Help]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56228&oldid=56227 * Oerjan * (-214) Undo revision 56227 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (You know this wiki is small enough that all pages are highly visible, right?) 05:31:25 i seem to have failed at not being sarcastic, despite already closing one editing tab 05:34:56 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56229&oldid=56219 * Oerjan * (-31) Hierarch those sections 05:37:04 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56230&oldid=55571 * A * (+63) /* Ideas for Names */ 05:40:40 [[Pizza]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56231 * A * (+776) Created page with "==Overview== '''Pizza''' is a joke programming language created by Nicholas Smith as a glitch to the BBC question about false programming language on 1 July 2018. It contains..." 05:55:15 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:27:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:28:26 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56232&oldid=56224 * A * (+40) /* See also */ 06:29:40 [[Brainfuck Contest]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56233 * A * (+132) Created page with "Hi! This is a Brainfuck Contest page. If you want to have a contest here, then go for it! ==Contest 1== Link:[[Brainfuck Contest 1]]" 06:32:52 [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56234 * A * (+314) Created page with "Welcome to my test contest! ==Rule== This is a golf contest. Anyone with the shortest code wins. ==Addition program== Indeed, we have to test it. If you have an answer, just g..." 06:33:38 [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56235&oldid=56234 * A * (+13) 06:35:39 [[Brainfuck Contest]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56236&oldid=56233 * A * (+43) /* Contest 1 */ 06:38:53 [[Brainfuck Contest 2]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56237 * A * (+420) Created page with "Welcome to my test contest! ==Rule== This is a golf contest. Anyone with the shortest code wins. ==Addition program== Indeed, we have to test it. If you have an answer, just g..." 06:44:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:48:30 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:16:03 -!- imode has joined. 08:23:58 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:34:50 [[BackTurn]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56238 * Zzo38 * (+940) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]][[Category:Unimplemented]][[Category:2018]][[Category:Reversible computing]][[Category:Two-dimensional languages]][[Category:Self-modifying]] BackTurn is..." 08:35:31 Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. 08:39:56 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56239&oldid=56197 * Zzo38 * (+44) Add a comment to the MIX implementation about modifications for binary computers 09:17:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:34:22 -!- Naergon has joined. 09:58:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:11:39 [[Array Changer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56240 * A * (+17234) Created page with "Array Changer is a very simple language. == State Table == {| class="wikitable" ! State || Next State On 0 || Next State On 1 |- | 0x00 || 0x2B || [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56241&oldid=56240 * A * (+0) 10:13:38 [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56242&oldid=56241 * A * (+0) 10:13:47 [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56243&oldid=56242 * A * (+0) 10:13:48 [[Array Changer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56244&oldid=56243 * A * (+0) 10:19:48 [[Brainfuck---]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56245 * A * (+1704) Created page with "'''Brainfuck---''' is a language made by [[User:A|User:A]] and is a downgraded version of [[brainfuck--]], that uses only four instructions. == History == Brainfuck-- was c..." 10:21:24 [[Brainfuck---]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56246&oldid=56245 * A * (-27) 10:25:29 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 633 seconds). 10:36:03 -!- gurmble has joined. 10:38:56 [[Asd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56247 * A * (+1144) Created page with "'''asd''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:A]] which makes [[123]]'s syntax simpler. == Instructions == The pointer begins at location 0. The progra..." 10:43:32 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds). 11:06:33 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56248&oldid=56247 * A * (-26) /* Instructions */ 11:07:38 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56249&oldid=56248 * A * (-26) /* Instructions */ 11:08:00 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56250&oldid=56249 * A * (+12) /* Instructions */ 11:11:44 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56251&oldid=56250 * A * (+32) /* Instructions */ 11:13:10 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56252&oldid=56251 * A * (-39) /* Instructions */ 11:16:18 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56253&oldid=56252 * A * (-13) /* Instructions */ 11:17:20 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56254&oldid=56253 * A * (-5) /* Instructions */ 11:28:39 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56255&oldid=56254 * A * (-32) /* Instructions */ 11:29:12 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56256&oldid=56255 * A * (+34) /* Instructions */ 11:29:31 -!- mniip has joined. 11:33:49 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56257&oldid=56256 * A * (-274) /* Instructions */ 11:35:25 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56258&oldid=56257 * A * (-49) /* Examples */ 11:35:37 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56259&oldid=56258 * A * (+0) /* Instructions */ 11:38:53 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56260&oldid=56259 * A * (+47) /* Instructions */ 11:39:24 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 11:43:39 [[Asd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56261&oldid=56260 * A * (-175) 11:48:23 [[Ja]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56262 * A * (+464) Created page with "'''ja''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by A. == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" ! Instruction || Description |- | j || jump to cell numbe..." 11:48:51 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56263&oldid=56044 * A * (+34) /* Survey */ 11:50:19 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56264&oldid=56263 * A * (+52) /* Survey */ 11:50:29 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56265&oldid=56264 * A * (+0) /* Survey */ 12:01:45 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56266&oldid=56262 * A * (+3) /* Instructions */ 12:02:31 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56267&oldid=56266 * A * (+34) /* Instructions */ 12:09:18 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56268&oldid=56267 * A * (+88) /* Example (Infinite Loop) */ 12:10:07 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56269&oldid=56268 * A * (+9) 12:12:40 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56270&oldid=56269 * A * (-2) /* Instructions */ 12:13:55 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56271&oldid=56270 * A * (+26) /* Example (Infinite Loop) */ 12:14:22 -!- SopaXT has joined. 12:15:35 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Disconnected by services). 12:15:39 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 12:37:00 [[Talk:Ja]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56272 * BoutonIA * (+578) Create the page and add Interpreter 12:41:06 [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56273&oldid=56272 * BoutonIA * (+93) 12:43:46 [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56274&oldid=56273 * BoutonIA * (-70) 12:45:32 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56275&oldid=56229 * A * (-8) /* Iamcalledbob's attempt */ 13:00:32 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:02:58 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:04:19 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:06:16 [[Talk:Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56276&oldid=56274 * BoutonIA * (+11) 14:31:13 -!- Remavas has joined. 14:49:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:59:44 [[FuckPack]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56277 * A * (+124) Created page with "FuckPack is Brainfuck, but with these other commands: ==Jump Commands== J Jump to the cell id numbered as the current bit." 15:00:10 [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56278&oldid=54927 * A * (+14) 15:01:10 [[FuckPack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56279&oldid=56277 * A * (+73) /* Jump Commands */ 15:01:28 [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56280&oldid=56278 * A * (+14) 15:03:31 -!- Remavas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:04:03 -!- Remavas has joined. 15:04:05 -!- Remavas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:24:09 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:54:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:02:58 -!- mrrmx has joined. 16:14:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 16:33:11 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:33:38 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 16:36:06 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:36:09 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:38:57 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:20:14 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:29:40 -!- aloril__ has joined. 17:43:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:49:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:49:51 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 18:15:59 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:40:29 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:56:07 [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56281&oldid=56147 * Rdebath * (-9) Repair broken list (and exaggeration) 19:03:36 -!- tromp has joined. 19:03:57 -!- Naergon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:36:55 -!- variable has joined. 20:09:55 -!- trout has joined. 20:12:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:21:21 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:37:28 -!- Naergon has joined. 20:40:33 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:41:18 -!- variable has joined. 20:42:39 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit). 20:45:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:54:17 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:35:05 -!- Naergon_ has joined. 21:35:57 -!- Naergon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:06:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:12:34 [[Brainfuck Contest 1]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56282&oldid=56235 * Plokmijnuhby * (+26) /* Output */ 22:36:53 -!- Naergon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:59:28 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in). 23:00:19 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:14:00 -!- imode has joined. 23:16:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:36:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:49 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:51:44 -!- tromp has joined. 23:54:28 -!- GeekDude has joined. 23:56:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:57:41 -!- Naergon has joined. 2018-07-02: 00:16:33 -!- erkin has joined. 00:17:06 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 00:20:52 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:26:10 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:29:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:31:05 -!- tromp has joined. 00:35:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:36:18 * oerjan hates it when he forgets to change the zoom level back before opening a heap of tabs 00:40:43 Can you use a privileged JavaScript code to affect multiple tabs at once? 00:43:51 They now added window functions into SQLite (although the version with window functions is not yet released), although, it says can only be used with SELECT, and, I wanted to use window functions with UPDATE, too. 00:52:03 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56283&oldid=56271 * Oerjan * (+279) Not convinced yet 00:54:39 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56284&oldid=56275 * Oerjan * (+7) These really shouldn't all be top level sections. 00:55:40 the specification of ja is a bit unclear on j, i think. 01:35:40 -!- Naergon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:39:58 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56285&oldid=56265 * Oerjan * (-86) It's not clearly TC yet 01:57:27 [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56286&oldid=56238 * Zzo38 * (+29) 02:01:32 Yes, it is unclear to me too 02:01:46 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:18:55 -!- tromp has joined. 02:23:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:31:12 [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56287&oldid=56286 * Zzo38 * (+612) 02:35:40 -!- Suika has joined. 02:36:21 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:37:00 -!- Suika has changed nick to erkin. 02:49:19 BackTurn level 1 should be able to sufficient for BackFlip-equivalent because I have managed to make flipping mirrors from two rotators, and fixed mirrors from two fixed mirrors, making tiled of 3x3 blocks in both cases. However, which pattern is needed depends on what else in the same row/column. 02:53:04 Do you? 03:04:02 um what about arrows? 03:07:24 There is the mention in [[Talk:BackFlip]] of why arrows are unnecessary. 03:08:14 "Having flipping mirrors and any one of: symbols always rebounding, symbols with a direction which always rebounds, fixed mirrors, arrows, gives you all of the others. (showing that you can get arrows is the difficult part, shown by ais523 above)" 03:12:56 (A symbol that always rebounds can also be made using the fixed mirrors if the flipping mirrors are made using rotators as I mentioned) 03:13:41 -!- tromp has joined. 03:18:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:28:11 oh 03:30:56 and i even wrote that. 03:33:53 Yes, you did write that, so hopefully you should know. 03:35:14 but i forgot. 03:35:25 OK 03:54:17 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:07:28 -!- tromp has joined. 04:08:21 [[FuckPack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56288&oldid=56279 * A * (+55) 04:08:44 [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56289&oldid=56280 * A * (+14) 04:11:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:12:09 [[FuckPack]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56290&oldid=56288 * A * (+55) 04:13:12 [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56291&oldid=56289 * A * (+14) 04:21:50 * oerjan learns about the hero shrew spine from freefall 04:26:29 [[Brainfuck.NET]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56292 * A * (+1322) Created page with "==Language overview== Brainfuck.NET operates on an array of memory cells, also referred to as the [[tape]], each initially set to zero. There is a [[pointer]], initially point..." 04:28:34 [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56293&oldid=56291 * A * (+89) 04:29:03 [[Brainfuck.NET]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56294&oldid=56292 * A * (+37) /* Language overview */ 04:33:21 [[Talk:Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56295&oldid=56276 * Ais523 * (+767) /* The definition doesn't match the example */ new section 04:33:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:35:02 I have a huge suspicion that User:Asdf and User:A are the same person and pretending to be two different people 04:37:18 and am annoyed at the number of near-identical languages that they're pumping out 04:37:28 also the general lack of understanding of Turing-completeness 04:40:48 ais523: i also suspect this. 04:41:42 at least Ja could be interesting, if clarified. 04:42:18 the interpreter doesn't match itself, although someone else (i think) made that. 04:45:27 It does look someone else wrote the interpreter (which also look like not a very good job). 04:46:17 ais523: the interpreter takes (although buggily) a different interpretation of j though, which is actually more promising since the code and data won't always be the same point. 04:46:22 oerjan: ja is basically the I/D machine with control flow, I think, just the control flow doesnt actualy work 04:47:11 the same person (assuming it's the same person) created a version of the I/D machine with output but the output is the same every time round the main loop… 04:47:13 aha 04:51:50 Then they didn't do a very good job with that either. 04:53:37 I'm not sure I've seen them do a very good job with anything yet :-( 04:55:14 ais523: whoa, NetHack is adding statuscolors? 04:55:47 "is adding"? some version of that has been in since 3.6 04:56:02 although 3.6.0's version didn't really work 04:56:04 3.6.1's is more usable 04:56:38 Ah, looks like it's being reimplemented, not using my patch. 05:00:29 ais523: You wrote how to make arrows with BackFlip if you do not have arrows but do have the symbol that always rebounds, and also flipping mirrors. I also figured how to make flipping mirrors out of rotators in BackTurn, although which pattern you need depends on what "parity" the next pattern in all four directions has. Therefore, I think you can make it BackFlip-equivalent, isn't it? Or did I do something wrong? 05:00:48 shachaf: you wrote the original statuscolors? 05:02:13 -!- tromp has joined. 05:02:22 zzo38: I haven't looked at that in detail to see if it works, but I expect it to work; "rotator that reverses direction when it's hit" is quite similar to a flipping mirror (it's not the same but it's usable for many of the same purposes) 05:04:08 ais523: Back in the day. 05:04:49 I think the reason it was reimplemented was that it was tty-specific 05:04:57 and the devteam wanted a version that could work with any windowport 05:05:50 (note: I wasn't on the devteam at the time so I don't know for certain) 05:06:52 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:11:00 ais523: The only way I figured to get it to work is to group rotators together and to use different paths for different directions (which is why you need different patterns in different cases, so that the edges match up properly), but maybe there is a better way I don't know. 05:28:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:41:59 -!- imode has joined. 06:20:51 -!- tromp has joined. 06:25:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:38:45 -!- Naergon has joined. 06:52:32 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/canada.day 06:52:40 -!- tromp has joined. 06:57:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:58:44 zzo38: where are the answers? 07:00:51 I don't know. 07:01:51 -!- tromp has joined. 07:03:55 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:08:40 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 07:16:22 -!- aloril_ has joined. 07:17:26 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:34:00 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:34:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:40:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:41:26 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:46:01 [[X:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56296 * A * (+910) Created page with "'''X:''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by User:A([[user:A]]) which further minimizes [[123]]. == Instructions == The pointer begins at location 0. The pro..." 08:34:07 -!- tromp has joined. 08:45:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:36:12 -!- mrrmx has joined. 09:54:40 -!- edoardo has joined. 09:55:20 -!- edoardo has quit (Client Quit). 10:07:43 -!- u0_a268 has joined. 10:09:23 -!- u0_a268 has changed nick to Scrooble. 10:09:47 -!- Scrooble has quit (Client Quit). 10:35:07 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56297&oldid=56226 * Ais523 * (+1430) /* Turing-completeness */ new section 10:35:47 [[X:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56298&oldid=56296 * Ais523 * (-19) computational class fix (this is less powerful than an FSM) 10:38:30 [[X:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56299&oldid=56298 * Ais523 * (-43) actually, these categories seem to have been copied from [[123]], e.g. this language probably wasn't created the same year as that one; trim them down to only the categories supported by the article 10:58:17 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56300&oldid=56297 * A * (+95) /* Turing-completeness */ 10:59:53 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56301&oldid=56300 * A * (+14) /* Turing-completeness */ 11:01:46 -!- Naergon has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:09:50 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56302&oldid=56285 * A * (+37) /* Survey */ 11:12:51 [[Ja]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56303&oldid=56283 * A * (+21) 11:16:58 [[Aj]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56304 * A * (+792) Created page with "'''aj''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:A]]. Twin language: [[Ja]] == Instructions == {| class="wikitable" ! Instruction || Description |- | ..." 12:07:01 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:07:58 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:37:41 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:51:08 @djinn ((((a -> b) -> b) -> b) -> Void) -> Void 12:51:08 -- f cannot be realized. 13:00:53 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:43:12 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:54:29 [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56305&oldid=56295 * BoutonIA * (+0) 14:57:08 [[Talk:Ja]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56306&oldid=56305 * BoutonIA * (+1) 15:07:58 [[Talk:Aj]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56307 * BoutonIA * (+566) Create the page and add Interpreter 15:10:23 [[User:BoutonIA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56308&oldid=56023 * BoutonIA * (+70) Add My Interpreters 15:23:22 -!- imode has joined. 15:26:31 -!- variable has joined. 15:34:13 [[BSoD]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56309&oldid=56038 * BoutonIA * (+25) Add Category:Output only 15:58:13 -!- trout has joined. 16:00:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:06:25 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:30:13 -!- variable has joined. 16:32:18 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:01:52 -!- trout has joined. 17:04:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:33:35 -!- variable has joined. 17:36:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:04:09 -!- trout has joined. 18:07:30 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:35:57 -!- variable has joined. 18:39:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:07:46 -!- trout has joined. 19:10:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:24:31 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…). 19:30:20 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 19:30:31 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:38:21 -!- variable has joined. 19:41:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:02:30 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:09:18 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:09:41 -!- trout has joined. 20:13:20 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:36:19 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56310&oldid=56301 * Ais523 * (+678) reply 20:42:36 -!- variable has joined. 20:44:50 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:14:01 -!- trout has joined. 21:16:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:43:12 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:44:53 -!- variable has joined. 21:47:46 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:52:34 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:09:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:16:48 -!- trout has joined. 22:19:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:20:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:47:37 -!- variable has joined. 22:51:29 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:19:28 -!- trout has joined. 23:23:00 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:51:04 -!- variable has joined. 23:53:54 -!- Cale has joined. 23:54:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:59:51 -!- moony has changed nick to moonythehuman. 2018-07-03: 00:00:04 -!- moonythehuman has changed nick to moonytheidentity. 00:19:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:22:22 -!- trout has joined. 00:25:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:48:42 -!- imode has joined. 00:53:50 -!- variable has joined. 00:55:10 -!- erkin has joined. 00:56:56 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:00:17 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:01:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:20:28 -!- MDude has joined. 01:22:12 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Quit: Quitte). 01:25:31 -!- trout has joined. 01:28:18 [[Aj]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56311&oldid=56304 * Oerjan * (-296) This section was copied from [[ja]] and doesn't apply here. (There seems to be no unbounded memory.) 01:28:39 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:29:45 well, no useful memory. 01:31:07 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:49:40 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56312&oldid=56310 * A * (+75) /* Turing-completeness */ 01:52:44 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56313&oldid=56312 * A * (+60) /* Turing-completeness */ 01:56:59 -!- variable has joined. 01:57:40 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:00:15 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:03:49 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56314&oldid=56302 * A * (+44) /* Survey */ 02:04:41 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56315&oldid=56314 * A * (-44) /* Survey */ 02:07:34 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56316&oldid=56315 * A * (+43) /* Survey */ 02:08:36 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56317&oldid=56316 * A * (+70) /* Survey */ 02:14:37 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56318&oldid=56317 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Survey */ UBFIM probably only works because of the NOPs (incidentally, I'm not 100% sure this is TC, anyone have a proof?) 02:24:01 -!- variable has changed nick to function. 02:26:26 error: cannot cast variable type to function type: variable `variable` is not callable. 02:28:50 -!- variable has joined. 02:32:21 -!- function has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:45:39 so in my original interpreter, I neglected to set the max replacement to '1'. meaning, my interpreter would simultaneously replace every single matching pattern in the string. 02:46:14 that made things a little faster with large global rules. 02:46:26 i.e ones without much context to them. 02:46:38 but I find it unrequired. 02:50:45 it's kind of beautiful watching the slow version of my sort-reversesort program. watching the workers stretch themselves over the string and regulate themselves. 02:50:56 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:00:27 -!- trout has joined. 03:03:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 03:13:37 -!- HereToAnnoy has joined. 03:19:43 what're some really small representations of state tables for turing-equivalent automata? TMs are required to specify at least the current state, the read symbol, the target state, the new symbol, and the head movement. 03:20:27 I'm wondering if there's an alternative representation that's potentially smaller than that, either for TMs or turing-equivalent automata. 03:20:51 define "smaller" 03:21:12 and "state table" 03:21:35 alercah: less elements to fully specify. i.e, I could combine the head movement and the written symbol into an 'action', so I'd only have to specify the current state, the read symbol, the next state, and the action. 03:22:25 and.. you know, a state table. a lookup table for state transitions based on a read symbol. 03:22:41 what is the state table for, say, BF? 03:22:45 or fractran 03:23:23 well, just like with TMs, it depends on the machine... but they largely follow instruction-based representations. 03:23:31 and those can be translated into states pretty trivially. 03:23:45 one state for each line.. 03:24:45 or, rather, each instruction. 03:25:47 it sounds like you are just going to bump into kolmogorov complexity 03:26:42 I mean... I don't think I am. there have been formulations (i.e the one that BF is based off of) that "compress" the state table into either a series of finite instructions or what I mentioned earlier. 03:31:34 well what I mean is the constant-difference between two representations in TMs 03:31:51 -!- variable has joined. 03:31:56 once you account for differences in encoding the actual machine (e.g. wasted bits in ASCII characters) by translating everything into the same encoding 03:32:07 you run into the conversion constant 03:32:53 right, I'm not aiming for the "smallest", just alternative versions that aren't like what turing specified. 03:33:11 I can paraphrase it as I don't like 5-tuples. :P 03:34:43 ahh :P 03:34:50 a struct with 5 elements, then :P 03:35:33 you can't really get away from that sort of thing if you drill down to the foundations 03:35:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 03:35:44 it comes up everywhere 03:35:53 well you can, you just need to admit to an action set and a reduced tape alphabet. 03:36:14 you can fix some things as standard 03:36:25 e.g. the states are numbers with 0 as the starting state 03:36:44 afk 03:37:13 the tape starts at all 0s, and is also numbers, and you define the number of states and symbols implicitly rather than explicitly, say 03:37:27 (or you make them explicit, but only a number indicating how many rather than a set) 03:37:46 then your transition function can just be that, a function 03:37:56 (which ends up being a relation if you break it down, but ignore that :P 03:59:11 Anybody have any stupid instruction ideas for a language? It could be anything. 03:59:39 instruction in what sense? like machine instructions? 03:59:55 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:00:52 all values loaded from registers in addressing aren't used from one register, but the XOR of two registers, which rotate every time you try to load a value in a fixed pattern 04:01:21 and there aren't convenient instructions like immediates that would let you simplify everything trivially 04:02:03 Some string of text that when placed on a line, does something. 04:02:29 Also, it needs a time/day of week that it will work on, and not at any other time. 04:02:58 I need dumb ideas. 04:03:04 Ran out of them. 04:04:02 -!- trout has joined. 04:07:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:10:28 also it needs to be computable. 04:21:51 nvm I'm tired 04:21:54 -!- HereToAnnoy has left. 04:34:35 -!- variable has joined. 04:37:56 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:52:37 on the one hand, automata are nice and easy constructs for modern computers, because rewriting requires pattern matching. on the other hand, rewriting is such an elegant concept that it's hard to abandon. 05:06:12 -!- trout has joined. 05:09:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:22:50 [[User:U ndefined]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56319&oldid=56116 * U ndefined * (-2) 05:28:43 that does not work hth 05:31:14 [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56320&oldid=56287 * Zzo38 * (+92) 05:35:16 I invented BackTurn in order to try to make a variant of BackFlip that can be reversed just by reversing the direction of program flow and not otherwise altering the program or anything else. 05:37:04 -!- variable has joined. 05:40:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:42:51 aha 05:43:09 Have you ever achieved kokushimusou tenhou? (If you have even played mahjong) 05:43:38 (I have never done, nor have I calculated the probability of doing so.) 05:45:13 i have never played mahjong 06:08:12 -!- trout has joined. 06:11:25 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:25:05 If the "R" that ais523 mentioned for avoid arrows in BackFlip in those patterns is only being hit from one way (it looks like it to me), then I think such a limited rebound can also be made from two different rotators in BackTurn like flipping mirrors can be (but this time they are orthogonally rather than diagonally adjacent), so then even with level 0 it should be possible, I think? 06:38:49 in any case you can make one that can be hit from all ways from four one in each direction 06:38:55 *four ones 06:40:21 -!- variable has joined. 06:42:01 OK 06:43:24 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:45:16 [[BackTurn]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56321&oldid=56320 * Zzo38 * (+529) 06:48:19 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:51:12 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:59:27 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip). 06:59:40 -!- ATMunn has joined. 06:59:47 -!- moonytheidentity has quit (Quit: Bye!). 07:00:06 -!- moony has joined. 07:08:32 -!- tromp has joined. 07:12:35 -!- trout has joined. 07:14:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:41:00 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56322 * A * (+1234) Created page with "==How to shorten your Brainfck code== ===Use Compiler flaws=== Indeed, most compilers have compiler flaws. Like the Brainfuck Visualizer, when a '-' appears and the mamory is..." 07:41:20 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56323&oldid=56322 * A * (+8) /* Combine small numbers in your code(<=4) */ 07:41:31 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56324&oldid=56323 * A * (+3) /* Use the visualizer */ 07:42:58 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56325&oldid=56324 * A * (+47) /* Use the visualizer */ 07:44:12 -!- variable has joined. 07:44:33 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56326&oldid=56325 * A * (+0) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code */ 07:47:07 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:49:10 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56327&oldid=56326 * A * (+355) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code */ 07:51:59 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56328&oldid=56327 * A * (+14) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 07:52:38 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56329&oldid=56328 * A * (-67) /* How to shorten your Brainfck code(To win a golf contest) */ 07:53:51 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56330&oldid=56329 * A * (+60) /* =Give up */ 08:04:31 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56331&oldid=56330 * A * (+197) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 08:05:46 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 08:06:18 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56332&oldid=56331 * A * (+5) /* Use Compiler flaws */ 08:06:40 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56333&oldid=56332 * A * (+2) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 08:15:15 -!- trout has joined. 08:18:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:20:35 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56334&oldid=56333 * A * (+433) 08:20:49 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56335&oldid=56334 * A * (+0) /* The classic multiplication */ 08:21:58 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56336&oldid=56335 * A * (+26) /* The classic multiplication */ 08:24:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:32:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:47:15 -!- variable has joined. 08:50:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:16:59 [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56337&oldid=52431 * A * (+61) /* Perfect Powers */ 09:18:44 -!- trout has joined. 09:20:11 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56338&oldid=54213 * A * (+65) /* Input a decimal number */ 09:21:42 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:22:32 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56339&oldid=56338 * A * (-3) /* Powers */ 09:23:16 [[Brainfuck constants]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56340&oldid=56337 * A * (-61) /* Perfect Powers */ 09:50:05 -!- variable has joined. 09:53:50 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:21:12 -!- trout has joined. 10:24:42 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:56:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:11:39 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56341&oldid=56336 * A * (+36) /* The classic multiplication */ 11:30:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:31:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:48:50 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56342&oldid=56341 * A * (+137) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 11:49:14 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:50:47 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56343&oldid=56342 * A * (+61) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 11:57:24 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56344&oldid=56343 * A * (+202) /* The classic multiplication */ 11:59:51 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56345&oldid=56344 * A * (+903) /* The PHP Golfer's advice */ 12:00:06 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56346&oldid=56345 * A * (+3) /* Understand the Brainfuck Code */ 12:02:58 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56347&oldid=56346 * A * (+68) /* Understand the Brainfuck Commads */ 12:05:25 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56348&oldid=56347 * A * (+57) /* The PHP Golfer's advice */ 12:08:06 -!- variable has joined. 12:10:50 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56349&oldid=56348 * A * (+387) /* Understand the Brainfuck Commads */ 12:13:33 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56350&oldid=56349 * A * (+191) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */ 12:14:36 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56351&oldid=56350 * A * (+60) 12:16:11 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56352&oldid=56351 * A * (+65) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */ 12:17:20 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56353&oldid=56352 * A * (+50) /* The classic multiplication */ 12:19:00 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56354&oldid=56353 * A * (+53) /* The classic multiplication */ 12:22:40 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56355&oldid=56354 * A * (+7) /* The classic multiplication */ 12:39:14 -!- trout has joined. 12:42:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:00:56 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:11:53 -!- variable has joined. 13:14:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:25:21 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56356&oldid=56355 * A * (+265) /* Don't Repeat Yourself(DRY) */ 13:28:20 -!- erkin has joined. 13:29:22 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:30:18 -!- erkin has joined. 13:32:03 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56357&oldid=56356 * A * (+126) /* Big width loops */ 13:32:20 Can anyone think of an actual use for a millibyte unit? 13:38:26 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:39:34 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56358&oldid=56232 * A * (+125) /* Examples */ 13:43:03 -!- trout has joined. 13:43:56 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56359&oldid=56358 * A * (+108) /* Examples */ 13:45:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:58:53 -!- ambrus has joined. 14:00:39 I am home free at last! After 18 days in this fucking madhouse, all but the last five days on closed ward, and the first approximately three days (I seriously don't know the exact number) so much sedated that I have total amnesia about it. 14:01:03 Is there a club for #esoteric users who have been in psychiatric closed ward? 14:01:16 Or even a `*list ? 14:08:51 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:15:06 -!- variable has joined. 14:17:52 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:18:21 And you know what the worst part of it was? The beds, on the open ward. I could barely get any sleep on them, even though I had to take sleeping pills and I removed the matress and put it on the ground to decrease the torture a bit. 14:19:17 My current theory is that these beds were designed to allow double-blind testing of sleeping medication on healthy individuals. If the people taking your pills can sleep for eight hours on those beds, then your sleeping medication is effective. 14:25:13 -!- ambrus has changed nick to wob_jonas. 14:25:19 oops, wrong nick again 14:42:46 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:43:34 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 14:46:05 -!- trout has joined. 14:49:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:17:31 -!- variable has joined. 15:20:15 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:40:23 [[User:Digital Hunter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56360&oldid=55245 * Digital Hunter * (+25) /* Stuff */ 15:48:48 -!- trout has joined. 15:51:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:01:20 -!- mrrmx has joined. 16:06:28 <\oren\> shachaf: guess what 16:06:49 <\oren\> shachaf: I am officially tasked with fixing the build system 16:07:12 wob_jonas: how are you doing 16:10:29 <\oren\> this software needs an exorcism, not a "bug fix" 16:10:38 <\oren\> where is my court chaplain 16:11:02 \oren\: your court chaplain is in seclusion due to an outbreak of slow fever 16:11:31 What's the code, ooi? 16:13:27 <\oren\> Taneb: it's a really convoluted series of makefiles and jamfiles and shell scripts and perl scripts and python scripts and scripts written in a company-internal language, all calling each other 16:13:50 <\oren\> Taneb: "You are in a maze of twisty little scripts, all different" 16:15:25 <\oren\> oh, and some of the shell scripts are bash and others are csh 16:15:52 Oh dear god 16:18:46 Start rewriting it in zsh and fish and then stop 16:18:56 <\oren\> Taneb: ooh, I found some Lua! 16:19:20 Is there any CMake? 16:19:32 <\oren\> so far no 16:19:43 <\oren\> I am looking at the output in tail-f 16:21:47 <\oren\> ok now it's for some reason started building a project that ought to be entirely separate from this one 16:24:59 \oren\: ouch. Taneb: tired 16:27:31 -!- variable has joined. 16:30:26 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:31:23 \oren\: the company-intetrnal language isn't SAP, right? 16:38:03 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no 16:38:29 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it's techinically open-source. it's called Salmon. nobody uses it but us afaik 16:39:49 \oren\: have you found the BANCStar components yet? 16:39:54 <\oren\> https://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/11-11-021 16:40:41 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:45:11 I have mostly just used a shell script at the top of a C source code file to compile the program; that is suitable if the program is only one file. More complicated programs work differently; compiling Free Hero Mesh does that but also has JavaScript codes, as well as another shell script to call all of them to compile them if needed due to changed. 16:49:02 Not as convoluted as what you mention above, but it does use multiple programming languages. (Anyways, C doesn't have its own build scripting) 16:51:23 -!- XorSwap has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:52:12 have you tried to relabel it as a "domain-specific language for describing building that particular project" instead of an in-house language? 16:53:08 <\oren\> wob_jonas: https://compilers.iecc.com/comparch/article/11-11-021 <-- does this sound like a man who can take criticism 16:54:50 -!- mrrmx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:58:38 -!- trout has joined. 17:00:27 You probably should fix that program if it is a mess like that; but, first you have to figure out, what are each of those files doing? 17:01:59 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:02:03 also, have you found the case where the build non-deterministically fails because a later build stage requires a dependency that isn't ready yet because the build system doesn't know there's a dependency? 17:03:25 but it nearly always works anyway because the default order happens to be just right for building it, so you only get the error if you modify the right source files 17:04:39 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:05:12 <\oren\> wob_jonas: well, the standard practice right now is that make clean, in addition to deleting things, "touch" es a certain file to ensure certain things get built 17:06:13 not like I'm talking out of experience. I deny having seen that build system at my previous job. 17:09:50 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:12:07 I think there were only two bugs in that job that I committed and was really embarrassed afterwards. One was multiplying two nearly commutating small square matrices in the wrong direction, and one is making an inter-thread queue work as a stack instead so the code started to do the wrong thing only when the load was high enough that there was more 17:12:08 than one element in the queue. 17:29:40 -!- variable has joined. 17:33:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:48:00 `smlist 470 17:48:01 smlist 470: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 17:48:44 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * HappyFakeBoulder * New user account 17:50:17 has http://pbfcomics.com/comics/youll-be-ok/ been listed yet? 17:50:55 plus we also got a bunch of abstruse geese while I was away, and a bobadventures 17:51:24 yep, Cale pbflisted it 17:51:55 that one is really sad given that I did have a (mental) breakdown 17:52:46 -!- imode has joined. 17:52:47 `bobadventureslist http://bobadventures.comicgenesis.com/d/20180625.html 17:52:48 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bobadventureslist: not found 17:54:35 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:59:54 `aglist 600,601,602,603,604,605,606 17:59:55 aglist 600,601,602,603,604,605,606: b_jonas shachaf 18:00:59 I don't think there's a point to listing regularly-updating things. 18:01:25 -!- trout has joined. 18:01:30 shachaf: it doesn't seem regular still 18:01:33 I mean 18:01:44 it's frequent enough, but not on any regular schedule 18:01:54 s/regular sc/predictable sc/ 18:02:12 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56361&oldid=56200 * HappyFakeBoulder * (+342) Added myself to the introduction page. 18:02:19 Why doesn't sed support transducers? 18:04:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:08:22 -!- mrrmx has joined. 18:09:30 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * HappyFakeBoulder * uploaded "[[File:HappyFakeBoulder Picture.png]]" 18:09:56 [[User:HappyFakeBoulder]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56363 * HappyFakeBoulder * (+76) Created and added some things. 18:37:51 -!- variable has joined. 18:40:18 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:45:01 [[User:Minin/modern.css]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56364&oldid=53818 * Minin * (-649) Blanked the page 19:16:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:18:55 -!- variable has joined. 19:26:57 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds). 19:27:29 -!- grumble has joined. 19:27:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:27:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 19:27:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:32:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:34:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:46:54 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 19:47:46 -!- tromp has joined. 20:05:54 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 20:10:39 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 20:26:11 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:27:39 -!- mrrmx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:37 -!- mrrmx has joined. 20:55:29 -!- imode has joined. 21:18:40 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:25:47 -!- Naergon has joined. 21:34:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:16:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:23:01 -!- u0_a268 has joined. 22:23:02 -!- u0_a268 has quit (Client Quit). 22:28:06 -!- moei has joined. 23:16:46 -!- Naergon has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:17:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:23:56 -!- imode has joined. 23:26:35 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:52:11 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Prof apex * New user account 23:56:36 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:58:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:58:34 -!- imode-desktop has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 2018-07-04: 00:00:13 -!- imode-desktop has joined. 00:11:58 -!- imode has joined. 00:16:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:21:13 -!- mrrmx has joined. 00:34:25 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:16:43 wob_jonas: welcome back! 01:34:47 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56365&oldid=56339 * Oerjan * (-62) This doesn't follow the page conventions - x isn't a cell label, but apparently a hardcoded number, so this doesn't really count as an algorithm. 01:38:19 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:40:23 <\oren\> shachaf: I am officially tasked with fixing the build system <-- it was inevitable. 01:42:06 \oren\: how are you fixing it 02:03:03 -!- tromp has joined. 02:07:46 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:22:25 [[Dd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56366 * A * (+43) Created page with "==dd== ==Syntax== dd print "dd" in console." 02:36:21 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:51:24 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56367&oldid=55792 * A * (+253) /* brainfuck */ 02:52:00 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56368&oldid=56367 * A * (-15) /* brainfuck */ 02:56:53 -!- tromp has joined. 02:56:54 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56369&oldid=56368 * A * (+192) /* brainfuck */ 02:59:27 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56370&oldid=56369 * A * (+148) /* brainfuck */ 03:01:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:12:13 ^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!0 03:12:18 0 ...out of time! 03:12:22 ^bf ,[.>+<-[-[>]<++<-]>]!1 03:12:22 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 03:12:56 that seems to lack the termination part... 03:13:16 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56371&oldid=56370 * A * (-426) /* brainfuck */ 03:13:26 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56372&oldid=56371 * A * (+0) /* brainfuck */ 03:14:57 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56373&oldid=56372 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */ 03:16:54 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56374&oldid=56373 * A * (-9) /* brainfuck */ 03:18:39 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56375&oldid=56374 * A * (-6) /* brainfuck */ 03:28:44 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56376&oldid=56375 * A * (+93) /* brainfuck */ 03:32:12 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56377&oldid=56376 * A * (-136) /* brainfuck */ 03:33:27 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56378&oldid=56377 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */ 03:48:57 shachaf: what's a transducer, and why doesn't ex support transliterations (the equivalent of sed's y command) 03:49:56 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56379&oldid=56378 * A * (+94) /* brainfuck */ 03:52:14 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56380&oldid=56379 * A * (-2) /* brainfuck */ 04:02:54 -!- HackEso has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 04:03:42 -!- HackEso has joined. 04:09:54 wob_jonas: A transducer is a state machine where the edges are labeled with input and output characters 04:10:13 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:12:46 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:14:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:16:13 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56381&oldid=56380 * A * (-91) /* brainfuck */ 04:17:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:18:04 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56382&oldid=56381 * A * (-1) /* brainfuck */ 04:18:38 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56383&oldid=56382 * A * (+1) /* brainfuck */ 04:25:55 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56384&oldid=56383 * A * (+0) /* brainfuck */ 04:30:59 ^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!0 04:31:04 0 ...out of time! 04:31:06 ^bf ,[.->+<[-->++<]>]!1 04:31:06 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:32:11 he's starting to get good at it... 04:32:37 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56385&oldid=56384 * A * (-2) /* brainfuck */ 04:32:38 although i don't like the nontermination, but the original version also seems to have that problem... 04:33:38 ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!0 04:33:42 0 ...out of time! 04:33:44 ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!1 04:33:44 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:33:55 unless it's just too slow for fungot 04:33:56 oerjan: ( ( okay okay)) possibly will be shown on court t._v. all day laughter and i thought 04:40:05 tracing in vim, looks like it indeed loops infinitely. 04:44:46 -!- tromp has joined. 04:49:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:50:35 shachaf: ah ok 04:53:40 wob_jonas: A few days ago I described a thing I don't know how to do with sed. 04:53:50 xkcd was very easy to understand today. 04:57:15 -!- shamsham has joined. 04:57:28 -!- shamsham has quit (Client Quit). 04:59:53 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:06:45 shachaf: and can't you just do a transducer thing by just adding a character marking the I/O head, with input on the right of it and output on the left, and then s/// and t all the transducing stuff? 05:09:19 I'm not sure? 05:09:33 When I get home I can tell you about my example 05:10:29 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:17:22 the output of a transducer isn't necessarily deterministic as function of the input hth 05:58:13 oh, that reminds me, there was a conversation I wanted to continue 05:59:56 " IMO Unicode should have used different codepoints for the two Turkish Is than for the Latin I" => I was thinking about this, and I now think that it either can't work, or there'd be a cop-out where some of those six characters rarely actually get used. 06:06:43 In particular, assume there's no cop-out, namely: English and Turkish are still widely used languages, pre-digital English and pre-digital Turkish texts exclusively use the current casing rules and this isn't close to changing when computers get invented, and ASCII still only contains the two English I letters. 06:09:56 Now suppose you have a typical computer loser who's typing a Turkish text in his Word documents on his Windows computer (or whatever tech is dominant around the 2000s) and prints them or sends them in email. If the turkish I are really encoded as four non-ASCII characters and these encodings are used, then this user will type those four turkish I i 06:09:56 n the word document, right? 06:10:45 And this will happen quasi-automatically, buy him just installing a Turkish localized Windows XP and MS Office and doing no customizations on his computer. 06:12:22 Then suppose that this loser decides to try to become a power user, and learn a bit of programming. He finds some dodgy C++ or Java tutorials on the internet or something, then types int main() { printf("hello, world\n"); return 0; } 06:15:55 My question is, at what point in the technology pipeline do those letter i in int and main and printf get converted to ASCII letter i, or otherwise understood by the compiler that the keyword means the same? How will this happen in such a way that it causes less of a PITA than the current situation for non-Turkish power users who are creating the t 06:15:55 ools involved, like the operating system and input method and the compiler and the command-line interpreter and the version control system?? 06:17:39 And I know that conversation I'm continuing was back in more than two days, but I'm sorry, I was seriously in a hospital. 06:30:25 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56386&oldid=56385 * A * (+227) 06:31:49 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56387&oldid=56386 * A * (+17) 07:00:54 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56388&oldid=56387 * A * (+174) /* brainfuck */ 07:01:24 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56389&oldid=56388 * A * (+11) /* brainfuck */ 07:01:38 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56390&oldid=56389 * A * (+1) /* brainfuck */ 07:10:40 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:28:03 -!- tromp has joined. 08:30:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:57:30 `? sgdq 08:57:32 SGDQ is Summer Games Done Quick, an annual video games speedrunning event for charity every summer, see http://gamesdonequick.com and https://gamesdonequick.com/tracker/events/ 09:24:04 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:24:47 -!- boily has joined. 10:59:23 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FLATTENED CHICKEN). 12:26:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:00:31 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:17:30 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 13:41:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:46:29 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 13:49:06 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56391&oldid=56390 * Ais523 * (-521) rv; I'm not convinced this content adds to the article (also, being able to truth-machine falls well short of Turing-completeness; it *is* decent evidence that what you're dealing with is at least an FSM, but probably doesn't prove that) 13:51:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:51:39 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shorten_your_Brainfuck_code has got to be a troll, right? 13:51:44 at least it's amusing 13:53:14 Yup 13:54:42 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:54:42 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 14:09:05 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:31:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:31:42 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:51:13 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 14:51:34 ais523: please logread near 14:51:38 https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-07-04.html#lnb 14:53:14 hmm, maybe Unicode should have a separate codepoint for dot-varying-on-case i too then 14:53:29 so at least when it's ambiguous, you know it's ambiguous, and there are steps you can take to clarify 14:53:59 `unidecode - 14:54:00 ​[U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS] 14:54:11 it wouldn't be any worse than the hyphen-minus situation 14:54:20 ais523: did you ever finish writing up your magic-is-TC thing? 14:54:21 (which is also sometimes used as a dash!) 14:54:37 Taneb: did you see the two pages I posted to the channel? I haven't written more than that 14:54:42 I got stuck on the esolang side of things 14:55:05 like, one issue is that we have to explain how we know that undecidable programs exist but we can't prove that any given program is undecidable 14:55:12 and thus we can't give an example 14:55:20 ais523: a few weeks ago? Yeah, I saw them and with the help of a couple of firends who play magic I more or less understood it 14:55:23 and another issue is that it'd be nice to give an example of a program that isn't known to be decidable 14:55:41 but most programs like that are rather complex, especially when translated into The Waterfall Model 14:55:44 so it'd be nice to have a simpler one 14:56:03 ais523: I actually think the right method for the turkish i is just telling the language of each part of the text in the higher-level markup language, such as with a HTML lang tag. that's what we do for every language-dependent thing ideally: unified han characters so the viewer can choose the font, unified cyrillic letters so the browser can use t 14:56:03 he right font for italic, text search, conventions of quoting, etc 14:56:07 I'd like to find the simplest possible universal minsky machine, really (or at least one that's simple, even if it isn't proven simplest) 14:56:33 arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition 14:56:55 I know there's a big argument wrt Chinese and Japanese rendering (which aren't the same, and yet Unicode doesn't distinguish between Chinese and Japanese characters) 14:57:29 oh yeah, by the way, I also disappeared for 18 days and haven't read your M:tG thing yet because of that 14:58:11 Taneb: did your friends who play magic agree with the explanation of Omni-Tell? It's always a bit awkward doing deck techs for a deck you've never played 14:59:05 ais523: they found it reasonable, I think 14:59:13 also, I think I now sort of understand one reason why there are so many brainfuck-alikes 14:59:47 because most people (asdf/a being an exception) make derivatives only of languages they think they understand? 15:00:35 I have a SECOND esolang joke in my head that could be easily done as "Brainfuck with ", and I must resist doing that. For the first such idea, luckily I can put the joke in Consumer society, but I haven't figured out the brainfuckless context for the second joke yet. 15:01:29 some jokes only work when you're working from a base everyone already understands 15:01:34 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte, for example 15:01:43 but in that case starting from practical languages works even better than starting from BF 15:02:14 "arguably Unicode would have been better off if each language had its own block of characters, even at the cost of repetition" => wait what? what "each language"? you mean even spanish and portugese would have different letters from each other? norwegian and danish? 15:04:04 as for Chinese and Taiwanese and Japanese kanji, I heared rumours that the Han unification was done back when people thought Unicode would only have a space of 2**16 code points, and they were afraid of running out of that if they didn't do Han unification. 15:04:15 but I don't know how true that is 15:04:54 wob_jonas: they'd be related, as in Unicode would know that they were "the same letter" and font systems would render them the same way by default, but in different blocks in case different, e.g., collation rules are needed 15:05:11 I guess you could merge languages which had identical casing and collation and rendering and grapheme boundaries, but that's fairly rare 15:05:32 just compare Hungarian "gy" to English "gy", for example, they're an identical sequence of letters but they're a unit in Hungarian and not in English 15:05:49 Like the Dutch IJ? 15:05:59 Hard tо imagine Unicοde without duplicates. 15:06:04 I'm not as familiar with Dutch but it wouldn't surprise me 15:06:23 I guess there are other examples, e.g. oe in German is actually equivalent to ö 15:06:30 ais523: Forte is not just a joke though. I'm thinking of actual jokes, ones that would be categorized joke language on esolang if they were brainfuck-based. and my second joke will probably be like that, only using some base other than brainfuck, if I ever write it up (this is a joke that needs some research by me before I can tell it) 15:06:57 `unidecode оοo 15:06:58 ​[U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+03BF GREEK SMALL LETTER OMICRON] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] 15:07:44 ais523: I just talked about the Hungarian sz/cs/ny/gy and I disagree, they're still two letters in Hungarian. http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2018-06.html%23d.2018-06-11.2525#comment-24610 15:08:18 ais523: what's the status of your omnitell writeup? is there an updated version from those two draft pages you showed before I disappeared? 15:08:36 no, I haven't changed it 15:08:49 also my argument is that gy collate together in Hungarian and thus they're different from English, where they don't 15:08:54 I don't think you disagree with that 15:09:21 ais523: I don't disagree with that, but I still say that they're not one letters just because they collate together 15:10:14 wob_jonas: my understanding of ais523's argument is because they collate different, they are different letters to the English gy, or could be treated as such 15:10:23 well, I treat them as a unit, that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the same letter 15:10:38 "qu" is pretty much a unit in English, apart from in a few loanwords, although that has a different nature 15:10:57 Taneb: right, you should be able to collate text without parsing things like HTML tags that specify the language 15:11:06 and you should be able to collate it without assuming that it's all written in a single language 15:11:35 ais523: my oxford dictionary ignores spaces when sorting headword, so eg. the order of headwords at one point I randomly opened the dictionary is "folk rock; folk song; folksy; folk tale; folkweave; folky". would you make the "k " a single character just so that collation works? 15:12:35 no, in that case it's the space that has an unusal collation property (i.e. not collating at all) 15:12:46 there are some similar situations, e.g. hyphens don't collate in many languages/contexts 15:12:49 ais523: oh wait, are you saying that they should be a separate character because you want to collate words differently based on their language in a single list? because that never works 15:12:55 we just don't do that 15:13:16 I agree that it never works, but I don't see why it couldn't work if people tried to make it work 15:13:26 we choose one collation rule and collate all words with that rule in the list, even if a minority of words is from a different language 15:14:16 it would be impractical, because you can't expect people reading the list to know all the collation rules for all languages 15:14:31 even paper library catalogs, which are pretty heavy on rules, don't do that 15:15:03 ok, admittedly some do 15:16:42 I guess you recall the example from TAOCP about sorting a library catalog where leading article words in any languageare ignored for collation iff they're in nominative case 15:17:28 but in that case the card itself displays the title by either moving the article to the back or by underlining the keyword to sort by with a red pen 15:18:58 and I guess you could make the case for just Hungarian too that you may need some way to distinguish between an accidental z-s combination (as in "egészség" and "szemeteszsák") from a real letter zs, and unicode doesn't help you there, 15:19:29 people have used manual exception lists for that, and some TeX macros, though the letter mostly for hyphenation rather than collation 15:19:35 in France it's apparently common to capitalise the sort key in lists of names 15:20:17 wob_jonas: "szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring (except that it probably doesn't cause a time paradox) 15:21:42 ais523: we do that too to show which of your personal names are the family name, because social conventions dictate that the person addressing you must know that, people use both western and Hungarian order for their name on English CVs and the like, and many words are both common family names and male given names in Hungarian 15:22:03 I have my family name all uppercased in my current CV for example 15:22:12 that CV being written in English 15:22:13 in England it can be hard to interact with people who you know are from a culture which uses the opposite order for names 15:22:24 as they might have swapped the names for our benefit or might not, so we don't know which name is which 15:23:17 ais523: yes, it's even worse with Japenese and Vietnamese names, because most people don't know enough of their culture to even make an educated guess of which part of the name is the family name 15:24:02 there are some video games which were translated from Japanese to English but proper nouns were left the same 15:24:13 after playing a few of those you can often make a good guess at recognising Japanese personal names 15:25:49 and then there's the special problem of guessing if a name is an Icelandic name or a Western name with a family name that sounds like an Icelandic patronym 15:26:21 in most cases that doesn't matter, though 15:27:02 why not? it matters for the same social conventions 15:27:12 (and collation too) 15:30:16 eg. if you're in a hospital and want to refer to a specific doctor who's treated you, you shall call them their family name plus a rank in some order, but never call them their given name plus a title (which depends on their rank and gender) if they have a family name because that would be insulting. there's a workaround of using their full name, b 15:30:16 ut that's costly. 15:32:47 no, I mean a family name and patronym are used in much the same contexts 15:32:58 also, it's often a bad idea to try to work out what to call someone from their name 15:33:14 in England it's quite common for the name that someone prefers to be called by not to match /any/ of their official names 15:33:19 guessing the right title is also tricky by the way if you haven't yet gotten a paper receipt listing their name. I think that's why some hospital departments have a prominent list of doctors working their with their ranks (and sometimes photos) 15:34:18 ais523: no, that's true only for Russian patronyms, not for Icelandic patronyms 15:34:28 oh, I see 15:34:37 you don't use title+patronym, right 15:35:01 but that said, I don't think you'd use title+forename either 15:36:25 what's a forename? 15:37:47 for icelandic names, you use the given name (plus often a title before or after) in contexts where you'd use a family name (plus title) with a western or Hungarian name, and you use the given name plus patronym for disambiguation contexts when you'd use the full name for a western or Hungarian name 15:38:52 only it's impossible to guess if the name is actually Icelandic, or it's westernized, similar to how it's hard to guess which name is the family name in some Hungarian names that might be swapped in a western context 15:39:39 "forename" is "given name" in cultures which put that first 15:39:47 I think it's put first in Iceland, isn't it? 15:40:14 but over here in England we're given multiple names and refuse to use any of them :-P 15:40:17 and some people with Icelandic names do westernise their names in some contexts 15:40:26 I got annoyed when my ISP refused to call me "Alex"… 15:41:00 ais523: I see. I didn't know that word. I thought it was just called a given name or a christian name, or just plain "name" on forms that have a "surname" field 15:41:21 I didn't even know there was a special word for given names that come first 15:42:49 it's by far the most common in British English when we're talking about our own culture, "given name" has only become popular fairly recently because it's more culture-independent 15:43:36 ais523: wasn't it "first name" and "last name" back when they just assumed western order? 15:43:58 when you're talking to children, perhaps; "forename" and "surname" was more common 15:44:10 ok 15:45:11 and sure, some nicknames are completely unguessable, in both ways, as in, you can't guess the nickname from the name, and you can't guess the name from a short set of names on a list from just the nickname 15:45:25 sometimes the nickname is not even related to the full name 15:46:10 even in IRL contexts as opposed to IRC or other internet-based forums where people deliberately obfuscate their real name 15:48:07 I've introduced myself to people as callforjudgement in real life… 15:48:55 and there are even people on the internet who insist on two different nicknames for different contexts 15:49:19 like me 15:49:34 there's no particular reason to have consistent nicknames unless you want people to recognise you cross-context 15:49:43 sure 15:50:18 I'm confused by the callforjudgement though, I assumed it was just a fallback irc nick for when you have multiple connections 15:50:28 I thought you just always used ais523 15:50:54 in the contexts where you know me, I indeed use ais523 as a primary nick; I set callforjudgement as a secondary nick here to keep it reserved 15:51:02 because I use it on some other sites 15:51:22 I see 15:51:24 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement. 15:51:26 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 15:51:40 although recently my connection failures haven't been jumping over to it so I'd better reset the timeout! 15:52:44 I know David Madore uses his real name and two different unrelated nicknames actively, plus had at least one other nickname in the past, but he doesn't hide the connections and I don't really understand how he chooses between which name he uses 15:53:03 except the obvious part where he uses his full name in formal academic contexts 15:53:04 I use callforjudgement for gaming 15:53:09 and ais523 for programming 15:53:32 unfortunately, there's enough of an overlap WRT TASing/speedrunning that I ended up having to use ais523 for that as there'd be an inconsistency no matter what I chose 15:54:11 I just use b_jonas_ and b_jonas__ as IRC fallbacks because those are sane defaults, plus I used b_jonas-2 at some point 15:54:45 I use ais523_ specifically for when I'm using someone else's computer 15:54:54 more underscores indicate sufficiently more ridiculous setups 15:55:07 lol 15:55:46 I think I used ais523___ once, I can't remember the exact setup but I think IE6 might have been involved (years after it had become a complete joke and wasn't current even among IE versions) 15:56:10 as for me, on some forums I've been calling myself "jonas" for so long that switching to "b_jonas" would be confusing to readers now, but "jonas" isn't unambiguous enough (there's even a forum with a "Jonas" unrelated to me), so I'm stuck and don't know what to do 15:56:13 also I didn't mean "sufficiently" 15:56:18 I can't figure out which word I did mean though 15:56:42 commensurably, perhaps? 15:57:04 "incrementally"? 15:57:20 could be 15:58:35 (incidentally, this serves as yet another trivial disproof of the sapir-whorf hypothesis; I find that disproofs like this come up once every few years, so while rare, they should be common enough for everyone to be aware of them if they've been paying attention to it for a while) 16:01:15 ais523: when I read English, such as on IRC, I usually think in English now unless I'm very tired. (I'm often ashamed about that.) In that case, when I don't know the right word in English, I imagine sort of a buzz replacing the word, and still finish the sentence in my head and understand it. Is that another disproof? 16:01:35 probably 16:01:47 any situation where you think a word without knowing what the word is should be a disproof 16:02:21 ok 16:03:36 When I was thinking about the turkish i situation, I spent an inordinate amount of time thinking of workarounds (cop-outs) involving time travel by the way. 16:04:49 hmm, somehow I'm reminded of Feather 16:04:59 The easiest method with time-travel would of course to convince Kemal Attatürk to not use the turkish i, or just kill or incapacitate him and hope the next language reformer won't come up with such a ridiculous thing. 16:06:41 A more tricky method is to bribe or threaten Noah Webster to use the turkish i in English texts, then hope that catches on and that with the US being a major superpower back then and inventing computers, everyone else in the word would use the turkish casing rule. 16:07:52 probably Gutenberg would make a better person to bribe 16:07:59 As in, you'd make everyone use İ as the capital of i, so much that it becomes an ASCII letter, and I becomes an obscure glyph that you only see in old books. 16:08:07 that way you affect most European languages, not just English 16:08:23 (the printing press was mostly responsible for, e.g., þ dying out from English) 16:10:33 ais523: but wasn't Gutenberg specifically trying to make printed books look as similar to manuscript codexes at his time, even to the extent of making the typesetting technology more difficult by having different variants of types for the same letter so they look just like in manuscripts? 16:11:56 But you're right that there's a risk that some European languages get stuck using the old conventions even if English changes. 16:14:42 An even bigger overkill cop-out would be to somehow use time-travel to make the US less powerful, have Turkey become a superpower, and have them pioneer telegraphs so that the two different pairs of i are already there in all character encodings, even baudot. But I think that wouldn't work, because then they'd never have changed away from arabic sc 16:14:42 ript. 16:17:40 By the time they switched to latin, printed books in latin script and non-turkish languages would have been too influential. 16:19:10 Making Vietnam a superpower would also not work for the same reason. 16:25:29 So my safest bet for a time-travel fix is still just bribing Kemal Atatürk, https://www.xkcd.com/567/ style 16:26:35 That would still leave you with a Vietnamese dotted I, but that's a lesser problem, it's only comparable to the cyrillic italic letter differences. 16:38:56 -!- mrrmx has joined. 16:39:01 Also for some reason I was thinking a lot that we should reform Hungarian spelling so that it's easier to guess the pronunciation of transliterated words and loanwords. In particular, the semi-vowel u should be properly distinguished from the vowel u, such as by writing them as w or ŭ. The most common word where that appears is aŭtó, and all greek- 16:39:01 originating compounds that start by aŭto. 16:39:58 hmm, in English, au is the same as aw, but also the same as or 16:40:08 at least in most dialects 16:40:19 so I think of au as being a vowel of its own, rather than a combination of a+u 16:40:40 I guess ou/ow is similar 16:40:54 although ou has a number of possible pronounciations 16:41:14 out, southern, bought… 16:41:30 Also, we should transliterate chi from ancient greek as ch instead of kh, because "kh" is a very common combination to appear randomly in inflected or suffixed words, so much that such occurrences dwarf the number of "kh" used as chi. 16:43:11 well, ch and kh are pronounced differently 16:43:15 very differently 16:43:23 so people use kh to give a better impression of how it sounds 16:44:01 I can see a decent argument for getting rid of the letter c altogether, and using k or s instead, but that means you need to find some other way to write ch (as it's neither a kh nor an sh) 16:50:59 ais523: I'm talking about ancient greek, not modern greek, and you can't use k or s instead because those are already used for kappa and sigma resp 16:51:34 oh, you mean in English or French? 16:51:41 yes, there the "ch" would be a bad choice 16:51:44 in English, yes 16:52:32 come to think of it, what's the difference between chi, kappa, and kappa followed by an aspirated vowel? 16:52:33 I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin. 16:53:12 ah right 16:53:14 I'm talking about Hungarian, where "ch" is mostly used for a sound similar to the ancient greek chi in loanwords from German or Latin. 16:53:42 come to think of it, "ch" is something different yet again in Scottish 16:53:55 it's more like Welsh ll than English ch/sh/kh 16:54:18 "ch" also sometimes appears as an accidental combination, like "kh", but less often, because "c" is a rare letter, and even rarer at the end of morphemes 16:55:24 right, "c" at the end of a word in English is (as far as I can tell) always hard, and nearly always spelled as "k" instead 16:55:33 ais523: the "kh" situation annoys me because in Russian (and most other languages not using the latin script) we transliterate the same sound with "h", so we have three different spellings for one sound for no reason. 16:55:58 ais523: no, again I'm saying "ch" appears as random combination in Hungarian rarely 16:56:07 ah, OK 16:56:14 English doesn't have any inflections that start with "h" 16:56:20 my experience with Hungarian is that it gets a lot of random letter combinations 16:56:47 but Hungarian has "-hez" for nouns and the suffix "-het" which are both quite common 16:56:54 and we can form compound words where the second part of the compound starts with h 16:57:13 yes, that can happen 16:58:22 but in general, "k" and "h" have swapped frequency in Hungarian vs English. English has a lot of "h" (because of the word "the") and few "k", whereas Hungarian has a lot of "k" (mostly because of conjugation and declination) but very few "h" (and even some mute "h") 17:00:16 which is, by the way, the second or third reason why Dvorak keyboard layout for Hungarian is a bad idea, the first reason being that "á" and "é" are too common. 17:03:51 the second reason is that "sz" is very common. we missed the opportunity around 1900 to use a single letter for "sz", and it would be very hard to fix now. 17:04:42 Hungarian sz is English s, and Hungarian s is English… sh? 17:04:57 ais523: yes, correct 17:05:06 maybe we should be using a single letter for sh :-D 17:05:27 we could use j, nobody will miss it :-D 17:05:41 the worst part is that Hungarian "c" used to be spelled as "cz", so there was an opening when we could have respelled "sz" as "c". 17:05:59 the Hungarian "c" is a totally rare letter, rarer even than "cs" 17:06:22 (come to think of it, the language name Clojure uses j in a position that makes an sh sound in the word "closure"…) 17:07:03 ais523: really? I think it's a voiced soft j sound in "closure", as in, the "measure" sound 17:07:09 let me check my dict 17:08:28 oh, you're probably right 17:08:39 many accents don't distinguish those sounds clearly 17:09:03 dict agrees with me 17:15:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 17:17:07 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:18:22 The best outcome IMO would have been to spell Hungarian "sz" as "s", Hungarian "s" as "c", Hungarian "cs" as "č" or "ć", Hungarian "zs" as "ž" or "ź", Hungarian "c" as "š" or "ś", and Hungarian "z" still as "z"; 17:18:59 but for that you'd have to time travel back at least 600 years, as opposed to just the simple partial fix of spelling "sz" as "c". 17:28:39 Another alternative that would perhaps work is to spell Hungarian with a variant of the modern Ukranian alphabet, but with acute accent for marking long vowels. 17:29:38 But that's even more impossible historically, because the modern cyrillic alphabets are way too new. 17:31:08 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:35:37 Whereas the ŭ respelling could conceivably happen if the Academy decided to decree its use and made the old spelling acceptible but depreciated. 17:36:29 Oh, that reminds me. I have a question. 17:38:36 In the Kalevala, "Kaukomieli", the alternate name for Lemminkejnen, is it supposed to be four syllables or five syllables? It appears as both in Rácz István's translation, and I'm not sure which one is the error. 17:41:10 There are a few other cases where this printing of the translation has 9-syllable half-lines (rather than the expected 8-syllable ones), apparently by mistake, but the "Kaukomieli" part is very annoying because I can't tell which of at least two lines containing it are mistakes, the ones where it's used as four syllable or the ones where it's used 17:41:10 as five syllable. 17:42:14 I'm asking this here because there are people who speak Finnish. 17:42:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:45:51 I should probably check the older edition for some of those mistaken lines by the way. 17:46:45 I'll also want to try the other translations, because I'm not quite satisfied with Rácz István's, due to the very high standards in poetry translation that I must compare him. 17:55:11 -!- tromp has joined. 17:57:59 ais523 (who isn't here, I know): in the Omni-tell thing, if the original tournament deck includes 8 Wishes, then how can you tell that the deck would still be tourey-viable if you modify the sideboard? 18:03:02 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 18:03:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:03:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:03:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:10:09 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:26:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:27:26 Also, once ais523 gets his writeup on the M:tG TC proof in a good state, we'll seriously have to consider M:tG-without-Rotlung-Reanimator as an esolang of whose computational abilities we care about. 18:50:32 -!- tromp has joined. 18:55:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:00:03 -!- erkin has joined. 19:02:03 -!- erkin has quit (Client Quit). 19:02:44 -!- erkin has joined. 19:02:47 -!- Suika has joined. 19:03:31 -!- Suika has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:03:33 -!- erkin has quit (Client Quit). 19:03:53 -!- erkin has joined. 19:30:08 -!- tromp has joined. 19:34:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:03:43 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 20:10:18 fungot, src 20:10:18 moony: um in the evening and stuff see we can't leave the classroom now 20:10:28 where's fungot's SRC again? :P 20:10:28 moony: over memorial day sigh like service that was on that plane 20:11:12 fungot, github 20:11:12 moony: yeah i i always wonder if if it's made known or if it's boring or you know you 20:11:16 fungot, source 20:11:16 moony: ( ( sigh you know what this is christie)) doesn't make any sense 20:11:22 * moony dies 20:12:36 +src 20:12:40 +help 20:12:42 +ping 20:12:50 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 20:13:29 ^source 20:13:29 https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98 20:13:35 moony: ^ 20:17:03 thanks 20:19:39 -!- brandonson has quit (Quit: leaving). 20:27:04 Oh, and by the way, I'll be afk starting tomorrow for four days, for a real world travel event, so don't be surprised if I'm not here.. 20:31:25 ais523: in "Magic: the Gathering is Undecidable: The Setup", you say "Most notably, this gives us arbitrarily many casts of Force of Will with which we can counter anything counterable our opponent tries to do, arguably enough for a win in most gamestates as it is." 20:32:18 but that doesn't seem right, because the combo you mention can't be done instant speed, and the opponent could cast more spells than you have Force of Wills 20:33:08 you can only repeat that combo at sorcery speed 20:36:02 "We'll hold some Forces of Will back in case the opponent has any free spells in their hand; as far as I can tell, every spell that can be cast for free can be countered. So the only potential problems would be uncounterable spells powered by something like Simian Spirit Guide, which the opponent is unlikely to have." => no, another problem would b 20:36:02 e abilities on cards in their hand, such as channel, but those usually cost mana too 20:49:48 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Language * New user account 20:52:23 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56392&oldid=56361 * Language * (+175) /* Introductions */ 21:03:45 ais523: in the setup of the clean opponent state, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons and a Seedborn Muse and two Amoeboid changelings each enchanted by a Diplomatic Immunity, and turn their Sigarda and Muse changelings in each of your upkeeps? 21:04:35 The Ghoul won't work on them because all four creatures have all creature types, and you can't target anything. 21:05:18 -!- tromp has joined. 21:10:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:12:15 Heck, the Sigarda doesn't even need a Diplomatic Immunity, it has hexproof built in. 21:14:06 Alternately, what do you do if the opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons that got turned into typeless by a use of Animate Artifact and 21:14:11 ignore that 21:15:04 just take the original question: a Sigarda, Host of Herons, a Seedborn Muse, and two Amoeboid Changelings, three of those protected by Diplomatic Immunity 21:17:07 I admit this is pretty unlikely in a real game 21:22:38 -!- tromp has joined. 21:34:51 ""szs" in Hungarian is like ". ." in Homespring" => yes, which is why I started spelling "szemeteszsák" (the only non-rare word where it doesn't resolve to "sz"+"s") as "szemetes-zsák" these days, even though that's technically not allowed by the Academy rules. 22:03:07 I guess you could still Trickbind the use of the Amoeboid 22:27:36 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:33:44 [[User:Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56393 * Language * (+3113) Created language about a wiki. 22:38:26 [[User:HereToAnnoy]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56394&oldid=55710 * HereToAnnoy * (+67) linked to a language about a wiki 22:41:23 -!- MDude has joined. 22:42:17 [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56395&oldid=56393 * HereToAnnoy * (+74) spec fix of a language about a wiki 23:11:22 but he could have three Amoeboids 23:14:44 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:15:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:35:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:45:41 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:48:10 -!- brandonson has joined. 23:51:19 -!- tromp has joined. 23:55:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2018-07-05: 00:30:59 -!- tromp has joined. 00:35:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:25:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:25:42 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:34:33 ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!0 01:34:38 0 ...out of time! 01:34:40 ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!1 01:34:40 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 01:35:03 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56396&oldid=56391 * Oerjan * (+11) /* brainfuck */ Replace by the reverted version by [[User:A]], which was shorter and simpler. 01:47:38 [[Talk:Alphuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56397&oldid=40427 * Oerjan * (+2) Fix incorrect categorization of talk page 01:53:18 -!- variable has joined. 01:54:00 [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56398&oldid=56395 * Oerjan * (-61) Improve formatting, also remove a non-existent category which this language is currently nowhere near the low, low bar of reaching. 02:01:49 -!- imode has joined. 02:06:24 [[Solo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56399 * A * (+186) Created page with "==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" |- | s || scan a number in console |- | o || output the number |- | l || loop the next byte forever if the accumuator is not 0 |} ==Truth-mach..." 02:08:29 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56400&oldid=56396 * A * (+21) /* Core SNUSP */ 02:18:41 -!- tromp has joined. 02:23:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:24:14 [[Is]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56401 * A * (+675) Created page with "==is== {| class="wikitable" |- | i || increment the current byte |- | s || set the whole array(It is all set to 0)(If it repeats forever, then it will overflow) into the poin..." 02:25:11 -!- trout has joined. 02:25:44 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56402&oldid=56400 * A * (+151) /* IRP */ 02:26:45 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56403&oldid=56402 * A * (+1) /* =Is */ 02:28:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:42:49 -!- oerjan has changed nick to oerjan_. 02:42:52 -!- oerjan_ has changed nick to oerjan. 02:43:54 my altnick hadn't been used since january... 02:47:51 @tell ais523 I can't figure out which word I did mean though <-- progressively hth 02:47:51 Consider it noted. 02:58:49 -!- variable has joined. 03:00:35 [[Fake-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56404 * A * (+530) Created page with "A '''Fake-machine''' is a simple program type, inspired by [[User:Keymaker|Keymaker]]'s Truth-machine to be a program that is easy, most of the time, to implement in a languag..." 03:00:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:03:07 [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56405&oldid=56404 * A * (+5) /* Implementations */ 03:06:43 [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56406&oldid=56405 * A * (+14) 03:06:44 @tell wob_jonas The best outcome IMO would have been to spell Hungarian [...] <-- you seem to be reinventing czech spelling except for swapping s and c... 03:06:44 Consider it noted. 03:07:07 [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56407&oldid=56406 * A * (+26) 03:09:47 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:33:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:37:08 -!- variable has joined. 04:02:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:02:26 ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!0 04:02:30 0 ...out of time! 04:02:33 ^bf ,[.-[-->++<]>+]!1 04:02:34 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:03:33 oh, I see how it's meant to work 04:04:02 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56408&oldid=56403 * Ais523 * (-11) Undo revision 56396 by [[Special:Contributions/Oerjan|Oerjan]] ([[User talk:Oerjan|talk]]) the version by [[User:A]] isn't correct; it goes into an infinite loop on 0 rather than terminating 04:05:26 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56409&oldid=56408 * Ais523 * (-152) undo the [[is]] program; you can't specify an entirely different program for input 0 and input 1, that doesn't test conditionals 04:09:11 -!- trout has joined. 04:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:12:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 04:18:21 ais523: the original also goes into an infinite loop 04:18:54 ugh 04:18:58 do I have to write a working one myself, then? 04:19:13 no, there's a working one way back in page history (about two pages) 04:19:41 or at least, a different one. 04:20:45 perhaps a bit of bisection is in order. 04:26:39 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 04:26:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 04:26:45 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 04:26:47 ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[>-<--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!0 04:26:47 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ... 04:26:55 ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[>-<--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!1 04:26:55 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:26:58 hmm 04:27:11 ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!0 04:27:12 0 04:27:14 ^bf >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]]!1 04:27:14 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:27:17 there we go 04:27:21 i'm on it 04:27:26 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56410&oldid=56409 * Oerjan * (+7) Undo [https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Truth-machine&type=revision&diff=47110&oldid=46694 old edits] which made it loop infinitely on 0 04:27:49 or were you making a better one... 04:28:06 mine checks even/odd, I think that one's checking for 48 specifically 04:28:11 yep 04:28:14 ,[>+>+<<-]++++++[>--------<-]>[>.<]>. 04:28:16 ,[>+>+<<-]++++++[>--------<-]>[>.<]>. 04:28:23 >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]] 04:28:45 hmm, can you golf off a byte there by rearranging what cell's used for what? 04:28:49 ok that's shorter 04:28:52 mine relies on wrapping, anyway, that one doesn't 04:29:03 maybe have both, then. 04:29:46 ^bf ,.[>>>+<--[<->--]<-<-]>[>>[.]]!0 04:29:46 0 04:29:48 ^bf ,.[>>>+<--[<->--]<-<-]>[>>[.]]!1 04:29:48 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:29:59 >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]] 04:30:05 ,.[>>>+<--[<->--]<-<-]>[>>[.]] 04:30:13 yep, slightly shorter if you rearrange it like this 04:30:48 an even/odd test is surprisingly hard to do non-wrapping 04:30:50 unless, hmm 04:31:38 ^bf >>,.[[->+<]>-]<[<<]>[.]!0 04:31:38 0 04:31:40 ^bf >>,.[[->+<]>-]<[<<]>[.]!1 04:31:40 1 04:31:51 oh, duh 04:31:54 ^bf >>,.[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!0 04:31:54 0 ... 04:31:56 ^bf >>,.[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!1 04:31:57 1 04:31:58 hm my edit summary didn't give a clickable link. it's annoying that Undo over more than one edit doesn't fill one in... 04:32:46 ais523: that's full of ^As tdnh 04:32:57 yes, I know what went wrong 04:33:44 ^bf >>>>,.[[->+>+<<]>>-]<<[<<<<]>[.]!0 04:33:44 0 ... 04:33:50 hmm 04:34:22 ^bf >>>>,.[[->+>+<<]>>-]<[<<<<]>[.]!0 04:34:22 0 04:34:23 by the way someone started a new polyglot chain https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/167621/add-a-egaugnal-to-a-polyglot 04:34:25 ^bf >>>>,.[[->+>+<<]>>-]<[<<<<]>[.]!1 04:34:25 1 04:34:29 I noticed 04:34:42 I probably won't contribute to it 04:34:46 might look at it when it grows longer 04:36:04 ^bf >,.[->+>+<<]>>[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!0 04:36:04 0 04:36:09 ^bf >,.[->+>+<<]>>[[->+<]+>-]<[<<]>[.]!1 04:36:09 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:36:11 that works 04:36:20 but it's not nearly as simple as the rather elegant original :-( 04:36:41 as i said, include both 04:36:58 I mean, my original non-wrapping version which didn't work but was very elegant 04:37:19 oh 04:37:35 ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<[<<]>[.]!0 04:37:35 0 04:37:38 ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<[<<]>[.]!1 04:37:38 1 04:37:45 oh ofc 04:37:51 ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!0 04:37:51 0 04:37:53 ^bf >>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!1 04:37:53 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:37:57 there, that's a bit better 04:38:27 * ais523 vaguely wonders if all three leading >s are required 04:38:30 time to bring up a debugger, I guess 04:39:03 ^bf +>>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!0 04:39:03 0 04:39:08 ^bf +>>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!1 04:39:08 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 04:41:28 oh, that's a clever way to check 04:41:29 -!- variable has joined. 04:41:36 ^bf +>>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.]!0 04:41:36 0 ... 04:41:39 but not perfect 04:41:41 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:41:54 based on what causes the overshoot to the left of the start, it'll be reliable in this case 04:42:31 -!- shachaf has joined. 04:42:47 good 04:43:09 >>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.] 04:43:19 >,.[<+>>>--[<->--]<-<-]>[<<[.]] 04:43:33 hmm, I'm using a proportional-width font, the programs are much the same width in this 04:43:36 * ais523 copies to an editor 04:43:52 the first is shorter hth 04:44:01 looks like >>,.[[->+<<+>]>-]<<<[<<]>[.] is the best option of my programs, it's shorter /and/ it doesn't require wrapping 04:44:12 although it does have O(n²) performance where n is the ASCII code of the input 04:44:32 I've just confirmed in a debugger that the maximum overshoot is 2 squares to the left of the input 04:44:36 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:45:27 although, hmm 04:45:30 I'm not sure I did that right 04:45:32 * ais523 double-checks 04:46:42 oh, looks like all three > /are/ needed 04:46:48 in the case where the input is 0 04:47:10 0 the digit or 0 the cell value 04:47:21 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56411&oldid=56410 * Ais523 * (-8) /* brainfuck */ shorter version 04:47:34 the digit 04:48:16 the program should work on cell values 0 and 1 too, I think 04:48:32 although with cell value 0 it follows a different codepath that just happens to give the right answer, rather than by design 04:48:37 heh 04:50:41 actually, with cell value 0 the program degenerates to >>>,.<<<> 04:50:52 which makes it very clear how much tape is needed :-) 04:53:01 you'd think 05:03:54 come to think of it I'm not sure that the codepath for NUL is that different from that for \x30 05:12:55 -!- trout has joined. 05:16:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:39:51 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:43:48 -!- variable has joined. 05:44:55 ais523: i don't think it exits without error on input 1 hth 05:45:19 haha :-) 05:45:26 I know what I meant, as do you 05:45:28 I'll fix it 05:45:59 SSA is too good 05:46:23 Is there a programming language based on explicit SSA in some sense? 05:47:46 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:02:57 some intermediate representations are like that 06:03:00 LLVM IR, for example 06:03:17 I can't think of a high-level language offhand that uses it 06:09:43 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 06:09:55 -!- imode-desktop has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 06:20:45 SPIR-V as well, I remember liking it when I scanned its spec draft 06:20:48 -!- trout has joined. 06:22:43 I think there are languages written as a fairly thin layer above SPIR-V (and maybe WebASM), which might count as "high-level language with ex plicit SSA" 06:22:59 I should figure out what the question I'm trying to ask is first, anyway. 06:23:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:23:08 Probably 06:23:13 I guess you can also say that Mill assembly is SSA. 06:24:29 I should get back to my "I swear it'll become a fancy decompiler someday" project 06:27:51 also: hachaf 06:28:20 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56412&oldid=56357 * A * (+494) /* Big width loops */ 06:32:32 HellorFly 06:32:55 I think the language I've been trying to figure out is related to SSA but I haven't figured out exactly how it works yet. 06:33:00 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:36:18 hmm, I suddenly realised that SSA is similar in a way to continuation passing style 06:48:58 -!- tromp has joined. 06:54:20 -!- variable has joined. 06:55:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:55:46 Yes, very similar. 06:56:10 Also did you see the presentation of SSA in https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~fp/courses/15411-f13/lectures/06-ssa.pdf ? 06:57:46 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:59:46 no; I'm not sure I've read any papers/lectures on SSA 07:00:10 it's just one of those concepts that you pick up when you do esoprogramming, because it's helpful to know all the low-level programming techniques in existence in case one of them becomes relevant 07:00:19 although, hmm, SSA isn't really conceptually low level 07:00:27 just happens to be used there because it's a pain to program in manually 07:06:45 Well, I like that presentation more than the one with phi nodes. 07:07:56 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56413&oldid=56411 * ZM * (+1) /* Andromeda */ actually push 0 on 0 07:09:21 Isn't FP code all effectively already in SSA? 07:09:27 (At least, pure FP code) 07:14:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:16:28 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:18:13 Lymia: hmm, I guess you can see a function call as a phi node 07:20:13 Yes. 07:20:25 -!- tromp has joined. 07:27:10 -!- trout has joined. 07:29:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:54:48 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:56:17 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56414&oldid=56412 * A * (+457) /* Average Numbers */ 07:57:28 -!- variable has joined. 08:01:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:28:50 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:31:08 -!- trout has joined. 08:31:23 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 08:31:44 -!- aloril__ has joined. 08:32:25 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 08:33:05 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:33:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:43:09 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:43:56 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 08:45:52 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 08:55:04 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56415&oldid=56413 * A * (+53) /* brainfuck */ 09:01:16 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56416&oldid=56414 * A * (+568) /* Golf question */ 09:02:39 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56417&oldid=56415 * A * (+88) /* brainfuck */ 09:02:56 -!- variable has joined. 09:05:27 SSA? 09:05:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 09:05:52 Static single assignmnet? 09:08:46 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56418&oldid=56417 * A * (+14) /* brainfuck */ 09:08:51 Taneb: yeah 09:18:50 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56419&oldid=56418 * A * (-102) /* brainfuck */ 09:21:58 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56420&oldid=56419 * A * (+114) /* brainfuck */ 09:24:54 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56421&oldid=56416 * A * (-25) /* Let's try another longer version */ 09:34:13 -!- trout has joined. 09:37:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:05:07 -!- variable has joined. 10:08:10 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:36:34 -!- trout has joined. 10:39:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:01:47 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:08:18 -!- variable has joined. 11:11:10 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:16:41 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56422&oldid=56421 * A * (+32) /* The classic multiplication */ 11:19:03 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56423&oldid=56422 * A * (+5) /* Golf question */ 11:21:04 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56424&oldid=56423 * A * (+51) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 11:27:40 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56425&oldid=56424 * A * (+10) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 11:27:50 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56426&oldid=56425 * A * (+1) /* Combine small numbers in your code */ 11:28:14 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56427&oldid=56426 * A * (-87) /* Use the visualizer */ 11:28:59 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56428&oldid=56427 * A * (-182) /* Let's try another longer version */ 11:31:17 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56429&oldid=56428 * A * (+854) /* Really? A shorter one */ 11:33:07 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56430&oldid=56429 * A * (-44) /* ASCII list */ 11:35:19 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56431&oldid=56430 * A * (+26) /* ASCII list */ 11:42:04 -!- trout has joined. 11:43:24 why is that ASCII list a) wrong and b) partially in Japanese? 11:43:46 oh, I see the Japanese got removed at some point 11:44:25 `` perl -e 'print chr 23' | unidecode 11:44:26 No output. 11:44:41 `` echo a | unidecode 11:44:42 No output. 11:44:44 hmm 11:44:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:44:52 oh, it takes from argument, not stdin 11:45:00 `` unidecode $(perl -e 'print chr 23') 11:45:01 ​[U+0017 ] 11:45:14 not useful :-( 11:45:17 I doubt it's tab though 11:45:35 oh, "end of transmission block" 11:46:29 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56432&oldid=56431 * Ais523 * (-836) /* ASCII list */ delete; a) this would be better as a link to an external site, b) it doesn't really have much to do with brainfuck in particular (or golfing!), c) it isn't even correct 11:56:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 12:16:01 -!- variable has joined. 12:19:06 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:48:04 -!- trout has joined. 12:50:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:52:20 -!- ldm has left ("WeeChat 2.1"). 13:11:21 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:15:18 Who is User:A 13:19:53 -!- variable has joined. 13:22:44 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:36:36 is A related to asdf? 13:51:02 -!- trout has joined. 13:51:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:52:22 -!- tromp has joined. 13:52:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:52:57 -!- tromp has joined. 13:53:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:22:09 -!- variable has joined. 14:24:24 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:25:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:53:06 -!- trout has joined. 14:56:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:57:44 -!- mrrmx has joined. 15:07:11 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56433&oldid=55610 * Digital Hunter * (+621) /* How it works */ 15:08:31 -!- moei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:09:03 -!- moei has joined. 15:13:41 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:17:27 -!- lambdabot has joined. 15:24:12 -!- variable has joined. 15:27:22 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:33:27 -!- WHarf has joined. 15:35:29 -!- WHarf has left. 15:55:29 -!- trout has joined. 15:59:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:05:36 -!- aloril_ has joined. 16:06:21 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:18:12 -!- erkin has joined. 16:25:20 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 16:26:58 -!- erkin has joined. 16:27:43 -!- variable has joined. 16:30:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:58:53 -!- trout has joined. 17:00:44 -!- imode has joined. 17:02:20 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:17:22 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 17:29:44 -!- variable has joined. 17:32:54 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:43:02 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:51:43 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:01:11 -!- trout has joined. 18:05:00 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:33:23 -!- erkin has joined. 18:33:40 -!- variable has joined. 18:36:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:59:42 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 19:04:49 -!- trout has joined. 19:07:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:21:33 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:36:08 -!- variable has joined. 19:39:44 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:11:21 -!- trout has joined. 20:14:32 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:22:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:43:08 -!- variable has joined. 20:46:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:14:54 -!- trout has joined. 21:17:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:34:47 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 21:35:11 starting to think string rewriting isn't practical. 21:38:10 my sorting program worked with single rule execution. but it took 500x longer than one with simultaneous rule execution. 21:44:07 I have a feeling that a TM would actually perform better in that regard. 21:45:41 -!- variable has joined. 21:47:32 with rewriting your state is just limited to 1. the rule you're executing, and 2. the thing you're rewriting. while with TMs, it's 1. the current state, 2. the head position and 3. the entire tape. 21:49:06 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:02:57 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:10:01 -!- MDude has joined. 22:14:02 it doesn't _look_ quite as elegant as string rewriting but it's certainly more practical. I wonder if there's a midway point. tag systems? 22:17:32 -!- trout has joined. 22:20:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:31:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:46:08 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:51:12 -!- variable has joined. 22:53:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:09:18 how would you give a "fair" rule order to a string rewriting system. 23:09:46 I know that Thue is nondeterministic. 23:10:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:22:08 -!- trout has joined. 23:25:29 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:26:35 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:27:19 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:53:53 -!- variable has joined. 23:57:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 2018-07-06: 00:11:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:12:19 -!- tromp has joined. 00:16:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:25:13 -!- trout has joined. 00:28:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:28:15 -!- tromp has joined. 00:32:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:50:00 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:57:18 -!- variable has joined. 00:59:34 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:17:41 -!- imode has joined. 01:21:16 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined. 01:21:16 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:23:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:30:45 -!- trout has joined. 01:33:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:55:29 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:02:21 -!- variable has joined. 02:03:52 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cjarvis * New user account 02:05:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:08:55 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56434&oldid=56392 * Cjarvis * (+276) /* Introductions */ 02:15:36 -!- tromp has joined. 02:20:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:25:24 -!- imode has joined. 02:33:40 -!- trout has joined. 02:37:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:46:35 -!- variable has joined. 02:49:00 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:53:07 is A related to asdf? <-- pretty much assuming it's the same person 02:54:29 but then why would one of them have asked the other one's permission to do something 02:54:32 checkmate 03:01:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:04:20 -!- variable has joined. 03:08:04 * oerjan swats shachaf -----### 03:08:26 why can't storing trees in memory be as simple as storing a string. ;~; 03:09:28 . o O ( maybe imode wants ghc's compact regions ) 03:09:55 imode: it can be if you just store complete trees hth 03:10:24 shachaf: well yeah but tree rewriting tyyypically doesn't deal with complete trees. 03:10:33 it'd be a massive space waster. 03:11:14 store all the data in one place and the shape in another place hth 03:11:15 plus the re-parenting of orphaned nodes and stuff upon rewrites. 03:11:27 -!- trout has joined. 03:11:33 well yeah but it'd... still require a fixed number of bits per node regardless of data. 03:11:56 Well, you can store the shape pretty efficiently with fancy rank-select dictionaries or something. 03:12:28 yeah, succinct trees. but that's for relatively sparse read-only data. dynamically updatable succinct trees are much harder than that. 03:12:33 Not so sure about mutation. 03:12:59 something I considered early on (about last year) was storing unique paths through an infinite complete binary tree. 03:13:10 as a list. 03:13:12 This reminds me of the other thing I was trying to figure out, which was about storing data in complete mostly-ordered trees. 03:13:29 (Rather than ordered mostly-complete trees like most balanced search trees.) 03:13:46 -!- function has joined. 03:13:54 I just don't get why people see trees/terms as more fundamental than strings in mathematics, I guess. 03:14:23 they're harder to work with, require bolting on binding and matching features onto whatever you to do to anything useful... 03:14:27 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:15:18 maybe it's because we've been dealing with expressions that take the form of trees for however long expressional/equational reasoning has been around. 03:16:27 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:18:41 -!- variable has joined. 03:22:09 -!- function has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:24:53 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56435&oldid=56432 * A * (+0) /* Really? A shorter one */ 03:48:53 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56436&oldid=56420 * Oerjan * (-167) That's nice, but unfortunately it doesn't terminate on 0. 04:03:36 -!- tromp has joined. 04:07:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:25:16 imode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prüfer_sequence ? 04:40:56 interesting. 04:42:44 myname: at a glance it doesn't seem like this'd permit easy modification. unless you can do traversal and modification solely based on the sequence alone 04:43:57 it looks like you'd be able to. it'd just be a little weird. 04:44:40 something I've also wondered is are there ways of compactly storing unlabeled trees? 04:49:34 the pure structure can be stored pretty compact 04:50:08 last year i had a code for that which basically just encodes branching to the left or right with bits 04:51:51 for trees where each node is either a leaf or has k children, you can store it with a 1 bit for going downwards and a 0 bit for going upwards again 04:52:14 oh, you don't even need k children for that 04:52:52 you may only receive an isomorphic tree through this, though 04:53:07 like, / is encoded as 10, but \ is as well 05:00:54 so you store a depth first traversal? 05:01:25 wait. isn't that just nested parens? 05:07:56 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 05:08:45 -!- imode has joined. 05:11:52 yeah 05:16:30 -!- imode1 has joined. 05:18:17 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:22:19 -!- imode1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 05:33:13 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56437&oldid=56435 * A * (+1263) /* Use the visualizer */ 05:33:54 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56438&oldid=56437 * A * (-27) /* Use the visualizer */ 05:51:19 -!- imode has joined. 05:51:53 -!- tromp has joined. 05:56:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:31:50 -!- tromp has joined. 06:35:45 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:41:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:49:15 [[Unless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56439 * A * (+853) Created page with "Unless is a derivative of [[~ATH]]. ==Tutorial== ===The simplest possible Unless program=== T: ;All unnecessary things ===T=== This can be changed into anything. If it..." 06:56:53 [[--Unless]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56440 * A * (+854) Created page with "==Tutorial== ===The simplest possible Unless program=== That is a [[Null program]]. ===R=== Run something. (This can run anything) It usually runs a code. A tab or 4 spaces..." 06:57:14 wat. 06:57:49 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56441&oldid=56440 * A * (+3) /* The simplest possible Unless program */ 06:58:52 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56442&oldid=56441 * A * (-34) /* ; */ 07:01:04 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56443&oldid=56442 * A * (+239) /* Objects */ 07:01:45 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56444&oldid=56443 * A * (+2) /* Objects */ 07:06:26 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56445&oldid=56039 * A * (+196) /* ~-~! */ 07:06:45 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 07:10:07 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56446&oldid=56444 * A * (+250) /* Objects */ 07:11:41 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56447&oldid=56445 * A * (+232) /* --Unless */ 07:18:49 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56448&oldid=56446 * A * (+29) /* Tutorial */ 07:19:25 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56449&oldid=56448 * A * (+35) /* Objects */ 07:20:01 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56450&oldid=56449 * A * (+23) /* :something */ 07:41:23 -!- imode has joined. 08:07:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:33:49 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:38:00 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 08:56:16 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:59:59 [[OOOOL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56451 * A * (+436) Created page with "OOOOL is the acronym for "Object-Oriented Output Only Language". ==Tutorial== ===How to define a function=== To define a function, you make it like this: FUNC: (do someting)..." 09:00:30 [[OOOOL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56452&oldid=56451 * A * (+9) /* How to output */ 10:31:23 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Bye!). 10:31:55 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:32:00 -!- moony has joined. 10:32:09 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 11:18:43 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Yhara * New user account 11:45:11 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56453&oldid=56359 * Ais523 * (-304) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ais523|Ais523]] 11:45:50 [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Ais523 * Ais523 changed visibility of 2 revisions on page [[Brainfuck]]: content hidden: Copyright violation: contains content copied from Stack Exchange (https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/163590) 13:00:31 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:17:24 -!- mehrdad has joined. 13:17:28 hi 13:17:40 is there a channel about esoterism/ 13:26:22 `welcome mehrdad 13:26:23 mehrdad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 13:27:57 hi Taneb 13:28:40 Taneb: where do people talk about esotericm? 13:29:16 taneb why don't you come to the go club on sunday 13:29:26 devonshire arms at ~7pm 13:30:45 izabera: go the programming language, go the board game, or go the verb? 13:30:55 the board game 13:31:11 I can't play ;_; 13:31:16 lern2go 13:31:26 well you know, it's still a pub and they have beer 13:31:47 I don't drink ;_; 13:32:02 Third excuse: I'm going to be playing board games in London that afternoon and I don't know when I'll get back 13:32:11 Other than those three reasons, I'd love to 13:32:15 It's pretty easy for me to get to 13:32:44 it's on sunday evening every sunday 13:33:39 come to the old ticket office this evening? 13:33:42 like at 6pm? 13:33:53 i'll be there with a few friends from work 13:39:10 That's more doable 13:39:55 yayyy 13:53:29 Is the old ticket office small enough that you'll recognize the approximately six foot tall (183cm) person with messy brown hair and thick eyebrows walking in the door 13:58:09 not sure... 13:59:13 come in with a rubiks cube in your hand 13:59:51 too snowdeny or not enough rubiks cubes available? 13:59:57 It's manageable 14:07:23 -!- mrrmx has joined. 14:27:43 [[Nameless language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56454&oldid=37337 * BMO * (+391) hello world example wasn't valid, added infobox & reference implementation 14:41:57 -!- mehrdad has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:48:35 -!- Bowserinator_ has joined. 14:48:36 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:48:39 -!- ATMunn_ has joined. 14:48:44 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:48:46 -!- ATMunn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:48:47 -!- probablymoony has joined. 14:55:41 [[MediaWiki:Common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56455 * Ais523 * (+203) the http:// URLs don't work well due to caching effects; if we visit the site in a sufficiently modern browser, do a JS redirect to https:// 15:03:05 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:03:34 -!- imode has joined. 15:12:38 so I retrofitted my interpreter to select the first applicable rule in the ruleset. 15:13:47 -!- ZM has joined. 15:14:31 ais523: thank you so much for that 15:17:58 -!- ATMunn_ has changed nick to ATMunn. 15:18:41 -!- ZM has quit (Quit: Page closed). 15:22:20 Hm 15:22:29 izabera: you're in UK? 15:22:46 yes in cambridge 15:22:57 Nifty 15:23:01 wbu? 15:23:36 Not presently, although have been in the UK fairly frequently the past.. half year or so 15:23:45 haven't been to Cambridge though 15:23:56 FireFly: you should, it's where I am 15:24:22 Or possibly that's a reason to avoid it 15:24:27 Hmm 15:24:37 You should attend freenode live in november :D 15:24:46 (though, in Bristol) 15:24:55 Bristol's annoying to get to :/ 15:25:10 easier than cambridge :p 15:25:17 I tried to go to the last one 15:25:34 Well, Cambridge is hard to get to unless you're in Cambridge, in which case it's hard to escape 15:25:34 EasyJet has a direct flight to Bristol nowadays 15:25:40 fair 15:26:01 Stansted Airport's like half an hour from Cambridge by train 15:26:14 I don't wanna ryanair :\ 15:26:19 That's fair 15:26:37 But yes, should visit Cambridge someday 15:26:59 I know enough people in the UK that I kinda want to make a tour de great britain.. 15:27:05 I hear there's a group that play Go every Sunday 15:27:10 well, by train 15:27:29 Is fizzie still in London? 15:29:15 My next UK visit will be in august/september, but.. wrong part of the country 15:29:32 (over by the border to wales basically, for EMFcamp) 15:30:31 A few of my friends are going to that 15:31:05 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:31:25 I went to 34c3 last year, hopefully EMF is just as fun, hehe 15:31:26 in london there are several go centers 15:31:56 or should i say centres 15:32:36 hehe 15:34:37 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:36:14 izabera: ona visit in the UK, or? 15:46:15 been living here since november 15:50:13 -!- probablymoony has changed nick to definitelymoony. 16:01:02 trying to find the shortest path between string rewriting and a usable programming language is difficult. 16:02:18 Maybe it'll go through Perl 16:02:35 it actually might go through SNOBOL. 16:12:38 izabera: ah cool! 16:13:03 you should also visit fnlive :p 16:26:25 -!- erkin has joined. 16:30:28 there has to be a shorter path than implementing RAM + a given instruction set. 17:20:48 I have written a tag system implementation in SQL; it is an easy Turing-complete system to implement using the recursive WITH clause in SQL. 17:21:22 WITH A(T) AS (SELECT '211' UNION ALL SELECT SUBSTR(T,3) || CASE SUBSTR(T,1,1) WHEN '1' THEN '3321H' WHEN '2' THEN '331' WHEN '3' THEN '33' END FROM A) SELECT T FROM A WHERE SUBSTR(T,1,1) = 'H' LIMIT 1; 17:22:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:28:15 -!- mrrmx has joined. 17:45:40 building expressiveness from nothing is hard. 17:47:54 There's a bunch of people here who work in London and live in Cambridge and commute daily, it can't be that hard to get to. 17:48:26 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 624 seconds). 17:49:09 Of course this place is right next to King's Cross, which is pretty optimal for Cambridgeing to/from. 17:57:49 Whoa, I think this was the first HTTP 451 "Unavailable For Legal Reasons" error I've gotten. 17:57:58 "We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time." 17:58:23 I guess that's one way of being GDPR compliant. 18:17:21 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 18:20:49 What are the requirements for GDPR? 18:24:57 -!- mniip has joined. 18:45:03 what's more general than a hypergraph? 18:57:02 http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/raw/exec.c?name=61678b6bb7fd8f9a32756361b39a5d4211cbde81 Do the pfunlink() and pflink() and objalloc() functions look like OK to you? Do you have suggestions to improve it if it is wrong? 19:05:03 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:49:35 -!- definitelymoony has changed nick to obviouslymoony. 19:50:29 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56456&oldid=54862 * DMC * (+143) 19:50:50 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56457&oldid=56456 * DMC * (+0) 20:21:56 * Taneb has now met izabera 20:22:25 \o/ 20:32:46 `smlist 470 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=470 20:32:47 smlist 470 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=470: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 20:44:14 Didn't I list this one already? 20:55:23 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:05:39 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 21:08:46 -!- imode has joined. 21:20:19 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:35:01 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:21 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:44:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 21:48:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:01:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:03:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:35:26 -!- mrrmx has joined. 22:38:22 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56458&oldid=56162 * HereToAnnoy * (+20) U - Added User:Language 23:44:59 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 2018-07-07: 00:09:04 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:09:48 -!- Naergon has joined. 00:15:28 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 00:48:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:08:53 -!- Warrigal has joined. 01:09:29 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 01:16:13 -!- imode has joined. 01:27:44 So I've got this decision problem. 01:29:38 There are F types of fruits and P people. I have f_1 fruits of the first kind, f_2 fruits of the second kind, ..., f_F fruits of the F'th kind. I need to give p_1 fruits to the first person, ..., p_P fruits to the P'th person. 01:30:17 However, each person will only accept fruits of particular kinds. 01:31:05 There's an FxP matrix of booleans which indicates whether or not each person will accept each kind of fruit. 01:31:28 The question is, can I give each person the required number of fruits, without giving any person a kind of fruit that they will not accept? 01:31:46 Now, this sounds like an NP-complete problem. Is it? 01:36:36 Pretty sure it's NP-hard because I can reduce set-packing to it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_packing 01:36:46 "Suppose one has a finite set S and a list of subsets of S. Then, the set packing problem asks if some k subsets in the list are pairwise disjoint (in other words, no two of them share an element)." 01:38:07 Okay, so I set F = |S| + 1. There is one type of fruit for each element of S, plus one more fruit, designated "otherwise". 01:38:49 For each element of the list of subsets of S, there's a person who demands exactly one fruit, and that fruit is permitted to be either one of the fruits from the subset of S, or the "otherwise" fruit. 01:39:23 There is also one person who demands enough "otherwise" fruits that k other people must receive fruits that are not "otherwise". 01:40:05 No, scratch that last person. 01:40:16 There are only the people who demand exactly one fruit. 01:40:27 I'm given exactly enough "otherwise" fruits that I can give them to all but k people. 01:40:35 I'm also given exactly one of every other type of fruit. 01:40:36 Done. 01:42:46 So, that proves that it's NP-hard. 01:43:45 Is it in NP? 01:48:46 Warrigal: if the p_i are given in unary, then yes, since the solution is polynomial size in the input data 01:48:51 otherwise, i'm not sure. 01:51:29 I'm assuming that all the numbers are given in binary or decimal. 01:51:49 hm wait, it works even without 01:52:02 isn't this an integer linear programming problem anyway 01:52:11 the list of all assignments just tells how many of each fruit to each person 01:52:44 and that can be done in binary/decimal. 01:53:06 so yeah, NP. 01:54:33 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:22:28 Yeah, it's probably obviously integer linear programming. 02:22:37 Here's another way of stating it. 02:23:14 You've got a grid of squares. Some of the squares have pencil marks in them. Each row and each column is labeled with a number. 02:23:35 Can you erase pencil marks such that each row contains *at least* the designated number of marks, and each column contains *at most* the designated number of marks? 02:25:40 Oh! Of course the (universal) dual of Kleene star is complement(star(complement(L))). I don't know why I didn't think of that. 02:25:46 But, hmm, can you even define concatenation of universal finite automata? 02:28:18 -!- Bowserinator_ has changed nick to Bowserinator. 02:30:36 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett. 02:36:38 [[MediaWiki talk:Common.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56459 * Oerjan * (+472) That doesn't work for the cache problems 02:37:35 [[MediaWiki talk:Common.js]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56460&oldid=56459 * Oerjan * (+1) punct. 02:40:19 ^bf +[-->-[>>+>-----<<]<--<---]>-.>>>+.>>..+++[.>]<<<<.+++.------.<<-. 02:40:19 Hello, World 02:54:03 what's more general than a hypergraph? <-- supercalifragilisticexpialigraph hth 03:01:59 Here's the paper on dual concatenation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304397505004056 03:02:06 (And dual regular expressions in general.) 03:04:59 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:44:01 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 04:07:07 oerjan: it did help. :P 04:07:31 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56461&oldid=56434 * Yhara * (+65) 04:10:01 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 04:13:39 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 04:50:45 -!- moei has joined. 05:45:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:46:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:51:56 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 06:00:45 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:03:49 -!- rodgort has joined. 06:15:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:03:43 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:15:10 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56462&oldid=56436 * A * (-14) /* brainfuck */ 07:17:45 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56463&oldid=56462 * Oerjan * (+14) Undo revision 56462 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (See previous edit summaries) 07:21:26 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56464&oldid=56438 * A * (+28) /* Really? A shorter one */ 07:22:54 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56465&oldid=56313 * Oerjan * (+406) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ new section 07:25:03 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56466&oldid=56464 * A * (+65) /* Really? A shorter one */ 07:29:02 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56467&oldid=56463 * A * (+109) /* brainfuck */ 07:30:13 ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]]!0 07:30:14 0 07:30:16 ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]]!1 07:30:16 111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ... 07:30:19 checks out 07:31:20 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56468&oldid=56467 * A * (-3) /* brainfuck */ 07:32:18 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56469&oldid=56468 * A * (-106) /* brainfuck */ 07:34:51 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56470&oldid=56465 * A * (+149) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ 07:43:45 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56471&oldid=56470 * A * (+144) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ 07:47:32 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56472&oldid=56471 * A * (-69) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ 07:50:24 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56473&oldid=56472 * A * (+5) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ 07:54:56 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56474&oldid=56466 * A * (+123) 07:54:56 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56475&oldid=56473 * Oerjan * (+207) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ 07:59:26 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56476&oldid=56475 * A * (+175) /* Your brainfuck truth-machine */ 08:02:16 ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]] 08:02:22 ^bf ,.[->+>+<<]++++++[->--------<]>[>[.]]!0 08:02:22 0 08:05:13 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56477&oldid=56476 * Oerjan * (+163) Yes 08:10:40 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56478&oldid=56469 * A * (+103) /* brainfuck */ 09:34:25 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:41:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 10:05:23 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:19:15 -!- erkin has joined. 10:26:29 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:48:15 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 11:33:33 -!- erkin has joined. 11:33:50 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:33:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:35:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:14:45 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 12:33:49 -!- erkin has joined. 13:00:31 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 14:44:25 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:25:27 @metar EGLL 15:25:27 EGLL 071520Z AUTO 30008KT 250V020 9999 NCD 30/12 Q1023 NOSIG 15:25:32 E2HOT 15:32:50 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 15:41:29 -!- variable has joined. 15:50:20 -!- trout has joined. 15:52:27 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:20:10 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:22:11 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:27:38 -!- Gregor has joined. 17:09:53 @metar BHX 17:09:59 hmm that doesn't work 17:10:15 @metar egbb 17:10:15 EGBB 071650Z 32008KT 280V010 CAVOK 28/09 Q1024 17:13:52 -!- mrrmx has joined. 17:18:32 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:22:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:42:46 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:55:58 -!- trout has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 18:09:36 -!- variable has joined. 18:22:58 `iata BHX 18:22:59 Birmingham (BHX, EGBB) 18:29:43 -!- laerling has joined. 18:31:44 @metar EGSC 18:31:45 EGSC 071650Z 36006KT 300V090 CAVOK 28/10 Q1023 18:37:14 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:39:19 -!- XorSwap has joined. 18:41:04 [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56479&oldid=56398 * HereToAnnoy * (+4159) Language update + examples 18:42:12 -!- trout has joined. 18:45:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:54:52 It's far too warm... 18:56:38 `icao EGSC 18:56:39 Cambridge (CBG, EGSC) 18:57:47 Somehow, Cambridge has an international airport with zero scheduled flights 19:13:41 -!- variable has joined. 19:16:46 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:18:11 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:20:20 [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56480&oldid=56479 * HereToAnnoy * (-328) edits to a language about a wiki 19:45:41 -!- trout has joined. 19:46:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:48:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:16:34 -!- variable has joined. 20:19:46 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:22:34 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:28:12 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:33:15 -!- aloril_ has joined. 20:47:53 -!- trout has joined. 20:52:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:19:35 -!- variable has joined. 21:22:17 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:51:39 -!- trout has joined. 21:53:48 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:20:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:22:41 -!- variable has joined. 22:24:23 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:26:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 22:26:44 -!- Cale has joined. 22:41:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:55:02 -!- trout has joined. 22:58:08 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:05:14 [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56481&oldid=56480 * Ais523 * (+52) add a few extra cats to this: [[Category:Unimplemented]] is particularly important as it may inspire someone to write an interpreter (which should be entirely possible!) 23:24:38 [[Fusion Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56482 * Ais523 * (+2369) I wanted to prove this TC before posting it, but I'm struggling, so it makes more sense to post it to see what other people think about it 23:25:07 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56483&oldid=56458 * Ais523 * (+17) /* F */ +[[Fusion Tag]] 23:26:04 -!- variable has joined. 23:26:13 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56484&oldid=55708 * Ais523 * (+200) +[[Fusion Tag]]; notes about the current status of Feather 23:29:25 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:39:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:41:04 @metar ENVA 23:41:05 ENVA 072320Z 13008KT CAVOK 08/07 Q1023 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT 23:41:27 E2HOT <-- E2DAMP 23:42:04 opening the door should help, i hope 23:48:36 -!- imode has joined. 23:54:04 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 23:58:24 -!- trout has joined. 2018-07-08: 00:01:24 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:11:49 The truncate optimization in SQLite does not work with virtual tables. In Free Hero Mesh I have a annihilate() function to delete all objects efficiently, which can be used in many cases internally, although a SQL statement such as DELETE FROM "OBJECTS"; cannot know to call annihilate(), and will have to delete each object individually instead. 00:11:51 [[Chaingate]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56485&oldid=51177 * Ais523 * (+1255) /* Computational class */ relationship to TAFMl4 (I hadn't consciously realised until now how similar the languages are; the reference to TAFM in the see also makes me think I might have done so unconsciously, though) 00:25:55 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:27:46 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:30:06 -!- variable has joined. 00:32:45 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:34:09 [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56486&oldid=56482 * Ais523 * (+61) /* Computational class */ clarify 00:41:40 my first few attempts at writing som fusion tag programs have all entered infinite loops without ever getting past the first ^ 00:42:12 i suppose an empty queue error is also possible. 00:48:35 [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56487 * Oerjan * (+408) /* Initialization */ new section 01:00:41 -!- trout has joined. 01:03:58 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:20:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:32:09 -!- variable has joined. 01:35:12 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:37:47 -!- imode has joined. 02:04:25 -!- trout has joined. 02:07:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:35:57 -!- variable has joined. 02:39:02 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:39:21 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:47:13 -!- Ana- has joined. 02:49:43 -!- Ana- has quit (Client Quit). 02:50:34 I have been told they would add unbounded signed integers into JavaScript soon. I think that is good. They say you can't mix types of operands except with comparison operators, but I think that you should be allowed to mix types with the << and >> operators and only the type of the left operand is used as the type of the result value. What do you think? 02:51:44 (This would also help with many esolangs which use unbounded integers; some use signed and some use unsigned, but it doesn't matter) 02:52:08 (It can also help to make a proper SQLite binding, because then each SQL type has a corresponding type in JavaScript.) 02:55:15 I looked at Fusion Tag now, I try to think of it now 02:55:44 yeah, <<, >> should be able to have smaller types as right-operands 02:56:29 but I'd be careful of adding features to languages specifically to make them work well with another language like SQL 02:57:14 JS is already off the deep end in terms of being pretty complicated and /weird/ and not being able to go back for legacy reasons 02:57:22 That isn't specifically the point; it is just one advantage I thought of. 03:01:03 One thing I wanted is 64-bit integers, and other thing is a goto command. This unbounded integers is a suitable substitute for 64-bit integers, though. 03:01:47 oh, I see 03:02:04 However, goto can be implemented with a preprocessor, at least. 03:02:11 64-bit ints should be standard for most things nowadays anyway 03:08:06 -!- trout has joined. 03:10:23 Yes. 03:10:52 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:17:19 -!- imode has joined. 03:36:34 zzo38: if my case analysis is correct, two 0s is not enough for a fusion tag program to get past the first ^ command. 03:38:52 -!- variable has joined. 03:41:12 maybe i'll just paste that 03:41:42 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:50:38 [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56488&oldid=56487 * Oerjan * (+675) /* Initialization */ Some analysis 04:09:55 -!- trout has joined. 04:13:17 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:21:32 Another variant of a 2-tag system could be that instead of using only the first number and discarding the second one, you combine the first two numbers using some operation such as addition, bitwise OR, bitwise XOR, or subtraction. (Other than subtraction, these are commutative and I don't know how the commutativity affects the computational class of it) 04:40:58 -!- variable has joined. 04:44:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:12:46 -!- trout has joined. 05:16:20 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:44:37 -!- variable has joined. 05:47:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:08:49 -!- Naergon has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:15:05 -!- trout has joined. 06:18:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:34:53 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56489&oldid=56478 * A * (+229) /* ZOMBIE */ 06:34:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:35:31 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56490&oldid=56489 * A * (+1) /* Brainfuck */ 06:38:52 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56491&oldid=56490 * A * (-13) /* Cheating Versions */ 06:45:44 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:47:46 -!- variable has joined. 06:50:47 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:52:29 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:57:56 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56492&oldid=56491 * A * (-1) /* pbrain */ 07:00:00 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56493&oldid=56492 * A * (-2) /* pbrain */ 07:02:54 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56494&oldid=56493 * A * (+34) /* pbrain */ 07:04:24 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56495&oldid=56494 * A * (+2) /* pbrain */ 07:04:37 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56496&oldid=56495 * A * (-36) /* pbrain */ 07:07:25 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56497&oldid=56496 * A * (+2) /* pbrain */ 07:07:51 can someone tell pbrain to use the damn edit button? 07:08:23 itym preview hth 07:10:42 yes th 07:19:01 -!- trout has joined. 07:22:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:39:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:50:51 -!- variable has joined. 07:51:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:53:37 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:18:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:21:46 -!- trout has joined. 08:24:58 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:52:41 -!- variable has joined. 08:56:02 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:20:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:23:09 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:23:43 -!- trout has joined. 09:27:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:29:42 -!- laerling has joined. 09:34:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:41:23 [[~This=That]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56498 * A * (+1826) Created page with "'''This=That''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56499&oldid=56498 * A * (+0) 09:45:17 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56500&oldid=56499 * A * (+1) 09:55:15 -!- variable has joined. 09:56:45 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 09:58:26 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:59:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:06:31 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56501&oldid=56500 * A * (-9) 10:07:57 -!- FreeFull has joined. 10:10:58 -!- Naergon has joined. 10:20:21 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56502&oldid=56501 * A * (-1) 10:26:25 -!- trout has joined. 10:29:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:57:17 -!- laerling has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:57:43 -!- variable has joined. 11:00:40 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:15:32 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56503&oldid=56502 * A * (+1236) /* Example programs */ 11:16:11 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56504&oldid=56503 * A * (+0) /* Endless Square Numbers Program */ 11:17:55 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56505&oldid=56504 * A * (-40) /* Example programs */ 11:19:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:20:11 -!- laerling has joined. 11:20:30 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56506&oldid=56505 * A * (-2) /* Endless Bottles of Beer Program */ 11:26:28 [[~This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56507&oldid=56506 * A * (+1) /* Cat Program (Until QUIT is inputted) */ 11:29:51 -!- trout has joined. 11:33:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:33:20 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:41:49 [[Var=Bar]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56508 * A * (+1574) Created page with "'''Var=Bar''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by [[Var=Bar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56509&oldid=56508 * A * (+5) /* Example */ 11:44:07 [[Var=Bar]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56510&oldid=56509 * A * (-8) 12:01:35 -!- variable has joined. 12:04:25 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:23:59 -!- erkin has joined. 12:24:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 12:32:26 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:33:28 -!- trout has joined. 12:36:22 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:56:43 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56511&oldid=56497 * A * (+55) /* Urn */ 13:00:33 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:04:35 -!- variable has joined. 13:08:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:22:31 [[Far]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56512 * GibsonGeorge * (+2836) Create 13:24:17 [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56513&oldid=56512 * GibsonGeorge * (+122) Add link to specification 13:26:51 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56514&oldid=56483 * GibsonGeorge * (+10) Add link to Far 13:30:44 [[Turth-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56515 * A * (+806) Created page with "'''Turth-machine''' is a simple pseudo-code programming language. ==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" |- | Ask for ''variable'' || input a variable |- | If the ''Something'' 'Con..." 13:32:01 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56516&oldid=56511 * A * (+135) /* Trigger */ 13:32:08 [[Turth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56517&oldid=56515 * A * (-1) 13:32:38 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56518&oldid=56516 * A * (-1) /* Turth-machine */ 13:32:41 [[Turth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56519&oldid=56517 * A * (-1) 13:35:50 [[Fake-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56520&oldid=56407 * A * (-40) 13:37:55 -!- trout has joined. 13:40:40 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:52:06 [[Code pointer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56521 * A * (+279) Created page with "==Syntax== {| class="wikitable" |- | { || Enter loop if code pointer#2 does not reach the end of program. |- | . || Print what the code pointer#2 is pointing. |- | > || move c..." 13:53:11 [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56522&oldid=54905 * A * (+30) /* Cheating Quines */ 14:03:19 [[Code pointer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56523&oldid=56521 * A * (+133) /* Syntax */ 14:04:17 [[Code pointer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56524&oldid=56523 * A * (+39) /* Quine */ 14:04:35 [[Code pointer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56525&oldid=56524 * A * (+12) /* Syntax */ 14:06:31 [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56526&oldid=56522 * A * (+30) /* Capuirequiem */ 14:09:34 -!- variable has joined. 14:12:35 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:41:42 -!- trout has joined. 14:44:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:12:10 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 15:13:03 -!- variable has joined. 15:14:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:14:55 [[Annoying Alice 2D]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56527&oldid=55651 * BoutonIA * (+1) Fixed an error due to a missing space 15:16:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 15:27:57 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 15:52:30 -!- mrrmx has joined. 15:56:26 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:23:10 -!- mrrmx has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:35:42 -!- mrrmx has joined. 16:36:59 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 16:39:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 16:40:13 -!- imode has joined. 16:52:57 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:13:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:14:41 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 17:32:41 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 17:35:15 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:36:51 -!- imode has joined. 17:38:08 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:39:10 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 17:48:47 -!- Lymia has joined. 17:49:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:51:59 -!- obviouslymoony has changed nick to totallymoony. 17:56:26 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:39:44 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:07:24 -!- XorSwap has joined. 19:13:18 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:43:22 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 19:43:41 -!- XorSwap has joined. 19:44:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:46:25 the four days of vacation were great. what did I miss here? 19:48:51 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 19:50:26 I forgot, but you can look at the logs 19:51:38 Do you know any mahjong playing? 19:51:53 yeah. I've grepped the logs, and ais523 didn't answer my two questions about the omnitell writeup yet 19:52:16 uh, a friend tried to teach some mahjong to me once, but I gave up quickly. it's just not my style of game. 19:52:46 There are many different kind of mahjong game; I know the Japanese game 19:54:47 I've no clue which mahjong game this was. I didn't even get as far as knowing all the rules. I only ever played a few matches. 19:55:35 OK 19:56:23 but it seemed like a version of rummy played with a different set of cards and with a more complicated scoring system 19:58:07 Yes, it is kind of like that (although that is true with nearly any mahjong game and is not specific to the Japanese game). 19:58:10 there are four players taking turns, each player always has a set of stones (which is what they call cards) whose number is fixed to 13 or something except you draw one at the start of your turn and discard one at its end, and your stones can be in your hand (hidden) or put down in combinations that you later can't easily modify (but you can add to 19:58:10 them) 19:58:48 and there are some special rules about how you can end the game by emptying your hand 19:59:57 and if you put a combination of cards on the table, then other players can see it but they can never modify it, and players can sometimes use the stone that another player discards 20:00:58 it's similar to rummy in most of this this, except that rummy is played with a double deck of poker cards and the number of players isn't fixed to 4 20:01:18 but then rummy also has different variations 20:02:12 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:03:19 All of that is true of any kind of mahjong (except "there are some special rules about how you can end the game by emptying your hand"; I am not sure what that means) 20:04:15 One feature specific to the Japanese mahjong is that one tile in the wall is flipped so that you can see it; if you have the number that is one more than that one and of the same suit, you earn extra points. 20:05:40 zzo38: that means three things: firstly you aren't always allowed to empty your hand, there are conditions depending on what combinations you'd have on the table for whether that's allowed or not; secondly I think there are options for whether you discard a stone in the turn you do that or not and one of those options is rare; and there's some spec 20:05:40 ial rule about using another player's discard differently if you're emptying your hand 20:07:53 If "emptying your hand" means you expose all of your tiles because you win, that is true in any mahjong game. You usually have to make a regular hand, there are also some irregular hands, and you never discard a stone on the turn you win (if self-drawn; if you win by someone's discard, you take that one and it completes your hand; a complete hand is always 14 tiles plus the number of four of a kind) 20:08:24 zzo38: ok 20:08:56 and yes, by emptying your hand I mean you put all your stones on the battlefield from your hand and end the game 20:09:39 OK 20:11:07 In some versions there are other conditions that you need to win too, such as in Japanese game you need to have a yaku as well as forming a regular hand (irregular hands automatically have a yaku) 20:16:56 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 20:25:16 [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56528&oldid=55166 * Galaxtone * (+25) /* Uhm, "program", It looks like a "programming language" to me */ 20:27:10 [[The Insane Esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56529&oldid=55481 * Galaxtone * (+30) 20:32:54 -!- aloril__ has joined. 20:35:09 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:49:50 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:50:25 -!- heroux_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:13:34 -!- atslash has joined. 21:41:35 -!- heroux has joined. 21:41:39 -!- heroux_ has joined. 21:51:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:00:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:10:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:11:17 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 22:15:23 https://ptpb.pw/MzvC/text well I made a quarter of an RPN calculator with unary... 22:26:11 I just don't see anything else you can do with string rewrite systems. maybe it's because I'm unoriginal, but it seems like you just end up reducing things to machine-like semantics anyway. 22:30:37 over traditional TMs, they just buy you extra context and the opportunity for concurrency/parallelism. 22:30:44 and nondeterminism. 22:31:28 but they don't buy you expressivity outside of that. there are no alternative ways of expressing things like the above other than machine descriptons. 22:33:33 I guess it's because I'm specifying semantics, rather than syntax. 22:34:13 rather, I'm _reducing_ semantics to rewrite operations, instead of solely specifying valid syntactical forms. 22:39:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:45:51 I think the term used for what I'm doing would be operational semantics. 22:51:58 thing is I can't wrap my head around graph rewriting without some kind of variable binding scheme. you can't do graph rewriting without specifying subgraphs, so how do you specify the "shape" of a given part of the graph without resorting to variables representing nodes or edges. 22:52:46 maybe kolmogorov machines or their ilk provide some light on that but I didn't immediately see how to reduce general graph pattern matching + rewriting to them. 22:56:44 -!- tromp has joined. 23:00:09 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in). 23:00:27 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:01:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:32:42 -!- Naergon has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:43:34 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:52:58 -!- tromp has joined. 23:57:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 2018-07-09: 00:06:04 -!- totallymoony has changed nick to instantmoonys. 00:35:16 -!- Warrigal_ has joined. 00:38:27 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:40:50 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:47:26 -!- tromp has joined. 00:52:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:09:18 -!- mrrmx has joined. 01:18:35 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:24:43 -!- mniip has quit (Quit: This page is intentionally left blank.). 01:27:58 -!- mniip has joined. 01:34:25 -!- imode has joined. 02:14:56 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:22:14 Now I have two bugs in SQLite that I have reported have been fixed (and one mistake in the documentation I have reported has been fixed). 02:34:47 -!- tromp has joined. 02:40:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:49:34 -!- instantmoonys has changed nick to probablymoony. 02:50:54 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:00:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 03:02:25 -!- Taneb has joined. 03:12:51 -!- user24 has joined. 03:33:00 -!- variable has joined. 03:41:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:44:29 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:54:04 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:58:06 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 04:03:50 [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56530&oldid=56513 * Oerjan * (+6) wikify a couple things 04:05:45 -!- trout has joined. 04:08:43 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:21:51 -!- tromp has joined. 04:22:45 fizzie: is mail from esolang working? 04:22:58 oh never mind, it just arrived 04:25:09 * oerjan is trying to see if he's receiving mail from other places than agora 04:25:28 although since the bounces are intermittent, this is not very reliable... 04:26:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:36:53 -!- variable has joined. 04:40:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:56:27 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:08:46 -!- trout has joined. 05:11:32 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:15:34 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56531&oldid=55036 * Galaxtone * (+7408) Putting this here for showing someone and i'll ask the owner if it's ok to replace his whole page. 05:15:55 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56532&oldid=56531 * Galaxtone * (-7408) Cleared, I'll use the link to before this edit to show it off. 05:16:45 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:18:09 * oerjan peeks a sneak 05:28:13 -!- imode has joined. 05:40:01 -!- variable has joined. 05:42:42 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:09:21 -!- tromp has joined. 06:11:46 -!- trout has joined. 06:14:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:14:32 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:15:27 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:27:53 oerjan: boo! 06:28:28 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 06:31:26 hint-e. 06:32:21 tarvek can be a bit reckless... 06:32:58 also, europa cuisine remains weird even outside mechanicsburg. 06:35:11 (the last one is technically for today, but not very spoilery.) 06:43:54 -!- variable has joined. 06:47:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:47:58 -!- Naergon has joined. 06:52:18 [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56533&oldid=56488 * Oerjan * (+716) Three zeros works a bit better 06:54:58 the
part gets a bit squeezed, but it's there. 06:56:13 pondering re-bingeing GG in order to catch up and make another attempt at following it 06:56:27 excellent plan 06:57:11 but it's so looong 06:57:16 * oerjan occasionally ruins his sleeping plans by binging a few sections. 06:58:52 I think last I read was fairly soon after they got onto the train 06:59:17 whch was probably ... a year and a half ago realtime, or so 06:59:20 maybe two 06:59:20 that's only about 3 years ago hth 06:59:29 or that 06:59:54 one of the characters lampshaded how long it had been in-comic, not too long ago 07:00:09 heh 07:00:32 I wonder how long the plot will be 07:00:45 FireFly: it's an easy way to waste a weekend ;-) 07:00:57 I mean "spend" ;-) 07:01:20 One weekend might possibly be enough to catch up, but deifnitely not if I want to re-read from the start 07:01:51 (which is tempting, since I've forgotten a lot of plot bits) 07:02:02 i wonder if Archive Binge is still working, and whether it ever supported girl genius 07:03:12 dmm's Archive Binge, that is, apparently someone else has started something by the same name 07:03:20 I think when I first binged GG it probably took me a week or two of fairly focused bingeing during a summer break 07:04:17 I guess a second readthrough might be somewhat more skimmy since I probably mostly need reminders of the plot 07:07:26 when i first started it was still divided into two "classes", because they didn't put all the old pre-web comics on the web immediately 07:08:52 so there were in effect first one binge for the oldest part, then several months (years) of individual posts, until one glorious day when the old class caught up to the new one. 07:09:43 let's see.. 2350 strips... at 1min/strip (which is low) is about 40h... a weekend may not be enough anymore ;-) 07:10:15 oh 07:10:48 right, hrm I forgot how they handled the transition 07:10:56 in the words of moloch von zinzer, "...how is _possible_ that this could surprise _any_ of you people?" 07:11:01 (from GG 101 to GG) 07:11:15 aka through a month of server crashes and quota run-outs 07:11:33 http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20121126 07:12:12 aka "badly, but they got better" 07:12:19 but I thought that the archive *now* just has 3 stips a week since 20021104 07:12:26 -!- probablymoony has changed nick to extremelymoony. 07:13:10 time machines are such useful devices 07:13:58 hm interesting 07:14:50 -!- trout has joined. 07:15:17 [[Talk:Far]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56534 * Plokmijnuhby * (+266) Created page with "== Stacks == There are several commands which refer to "the stack". I assume this is Stack0, but if so I can't see any way to change Stack1. Is there a way to change which sta..." 07:18:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:22:57 -!- atslash has joined. 07:27:34 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:27:59 -!- atslash has joined. 07:29:36 -!- tromp has joined. 07:40:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:46:46 -!- variable has joined. 07:49:29 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:17:34 -!- trout has joined. 08:20:54 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:25:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:25:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:25:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:49:37 -!- variable has joined. 08:52:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:07:43 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:13:18 -!- aloril__ has joined. 09:23:01 -!- trout has joined. 09:24:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 09:36:08 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:43:55 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:44:41 zzo38: nice! which two (bugs in SQLite)? I also have two, the int-float comparison bug, and some statement parser thing. 09:46:08 -!- aloril__ has joined. 09:54:23 -!- variable has joined. 09:56:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:58:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:59:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:06:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:10:08 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:15:40 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:26:25 -!- trout has joined. 10:29:00 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:40:53 [[Talk:Far]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56535&oldid=56534 * Ais523 * (+314) a guess as to what this means 10:59:07 -!- variable has joined. 11:01:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:14:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:20:16 -!- test has joined. 11:20:23 -!- test has quit (Client Quit). 11:30:49 -!- trout has joined. 11:34:29 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:56:54 -!- MDude has joined. 12:04:05 -!- variable has joined. 12:06:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:35:43 -!- trout has joined. 12:38:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:40:13 [[User:Nobody]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56536&oldid=54921 * Nobody * (+33) 12:51:21 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 13:00:29 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56537&oldid=56433 * Digital Hunter * (+48) /* Other built-in functions */ 13:00:33 -!- doesthiswork has joined. 13:03:03 -!- mniip has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:04:30 -!- mniip has joined. 13:04:54 -!- mniip has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:06:03 -!- mniip has joined. 13:07:41 -!- variable has joined. 13:10:47 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 13:13:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:32:43 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:40:55 -!- trout has joined. 13:42:45 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:49:05 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:11:36 -!- variable has joined. 14:15:35 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:43:51 -!- trout has joined. 14:46:43 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:11:11 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:13:05 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:14:24 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:14:43 -!- variable has joined. 15:17:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:31:30 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:45:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:46:49 -!- trout has joined. 15:50:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:09:32 [[Spoon]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56538&oldid=45837 * SnoringFrog * (+59) /* External resources */ 16:17:45 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:18:23 -!- variable has joined. 16:21:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:49:14 -!- trout has joined. 16:51:24 wob_jonas: One is a problem with functions using sqlite3_set_auxdata() in triggers, the other one is if an authorizer callback denies some steps of creating a WITHOUT ROWID table it will segfault. 16:52:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:09:42 -!- imode has joined. 17:17:06 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 17:18:34 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:18:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:19:23 huh, the newly updated Magic Tournament Rules are now actually clear enough to work out what happens if someone sets up a Turing Machine 17:19:42 what happens is: you have to play it out (unless someone concedes) up until it repeats a previous state 17:20:02 I don't think this overrides the bit of the comprehensive rules which makes the game a draw if it has no way to end, though 17:21:43 -!- variable has joined. 17:23:51 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 17:23:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Disconnected by services). 17:23:58 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 17:24:11 [18:22] imode: you can't encode arbitrary graphs in eodermdrome, only ones with 26 vertices or less; to encode a graph of that size, you just come up with an arbitrary path that goes through every point (this is easy as you can retrace your steps if necessary), letter every point, and write out the letters in order 17:24:12 [18:23] 104.4b If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw. 17:24:17 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:24:50 hmm, arguably 104.4b doesn't cause a draw in the case of a nontrivial infinite loop either 17:26:13 on the other hand, the whole point of this construction is that there are no actions in the loop 17:26:19 it's just triggered abilities triggering each other in a chain 17:26:32 this might lead to problems related to, say, the three Oblivion Ring loop, which also contains no actions 17:29:48 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:30:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 17:30:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:37:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:37:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:37:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:37:22 ais523: thanks for the info! I guess I'm wondering if there's a possibility using a larger (possibly infinite) alphabet. 17:37:56 the format generalises easily enough 17:38:01 but it's not very convenient to work with 17:39:02 starting to notice that. graph rewriting isn't as elegant as I thought. 17:39:59 it's more usable if you have labelled nodes 17:40:22 eodermdrome is basically a tarpitisation that unlabels them, meaning that you have to attach little subgraphs to the nodes to tell them apart 17:41:55 that honestly sounds cool, because you can craft labels by attaching differently shaped subgraphs to nodes. 17:42:14 but I guess it doesn't.. really buy you any expressiveness. 17:42:53 right, it's the tarpit approach 17:42:56 simplicity over usability 17:43:24 the reason I asked you about encoding arbitrary graphs was that I'm trying to take the approach of simplicity first, usability later. 17:44:10 it'd be nice to develop a graph-rewriting language with something like kolmogorov machines as a basis, and compile larger, more complex rules down to it. 17:44:43 but I can't find any other methods that don't use variable binding. 17:45:48 I think the simplest way to make it somewhat usable would be eodermdrome except that the nodes remember which letter they have 17:46:06 and probably using identifiers rather than letters so you have an infinite supply 17:46:51 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:47:07 that's what I was thinking initially. I haven't looked into how to do/translate useful algorithms (like binary incrementation, or whatever the hell I've been doing with SRSs) over to eodermdrome yet. 17:48:39 wrapping my head around it hasn't been that fruitful. yet. :P 17:48:43 you'd probably want to add explicit syntax for wildcards in the patterns, too, to make things more readable 17:48:58 rather than just "anything that exists on both sides is a wildcard" 17:53:10 -!- trout has joined. 17:53:26 so the concept is that every vertex in the graph is uniquely addressable from every other vertex. rewriting is always local to the first node specified in a rule, so you take a path through the graph. 17:54:01 you then replace the matched path with the new one from the rule set, adding or removing nodes as needed. 17:54:43 that's a neat way of handling cycle creation. 17:55:56 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:55:57 but if I were to go with identifiers/words, I wonder what constructing something like a labeled tree would look like. 17:57:40 -!- MDude has joined. 17:57:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 18:09:08 -!- mrrmx has joined. 18:20:30 I find it weird that pointer machines are so obscure. 18:24:48 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:25:03 -!- variable has joined. 18:27:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:31:27 ais523: Even so I would think that unless you use subgames it doesn't make it more than Turing-complete (although it still makes it impossible to actually implement). Since it will end in a "implicit draw" even without such a rule (although omitting the rule would mean that a subgame getting in a infinite loop would end the main game in such a "implicit draw" instead of the subgame). 18:31:44 I do not keep track of the Magic Tournament rules. 18:32:02 (I do keep track of the game rules whenever they change, though.) 18:32:50 The game would go on forever if there is no rule to stop it, and because of that, it ends in a "implicit draw", that it goes on forever, I should think 18:35:31 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56539&oldid=56532 * Galaxtone * (+9911) Showing creator of surtic for review. 18:35:42 oh darn, I missed ais again 18:35:51 [[Esolang:Sandbox]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56540&oldid=56539 * Galaxtone * (-9911) Clearing, using edit link to old page to show it. 18:37:05 wob_jonas: I told you now what bugs I reported have been fixed in SQLite, as you have asked 18:37:11 [[TLOWScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56541&oldid=54417 * ZM * (+41) Update links 18:37:27 zzo38: right, see it in the log 18:39:09 Here is the reply to my report (the reply also includes my original message): https://www.mail-archive.com/sqlite-users@mailinglists.sqlite.org/msg111043.html 18:39:51 `smlit 471 18:39:52 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: smlit: not found 18:39:55 `smlist 471 18:39:56 smlist 471: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 18:44:14 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56542&oldid=56537 * Digital Hunter * (-23) /* Loops & Blocks */ 18:54:48 -!- erkin has joined. 18:56:12 -!- trout has joined. 18:58:07 [[Talk:Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56543&oldid=56528 * Galaxtone * (-199) Deleted, because I wanted to. 18:59:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:21:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:24:34 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 19:29:03 -!- variable has joined. 19:30:48 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:32:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:32:28 [[99 bottles of beer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56544&oldid=54598 * Galaxtone * (+9) Looked like it was suppose to be one whole code block. 19:38:34 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:39:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:40:04 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 19:45:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:45:05 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Talk:Surtic]]": Author request: all revisions were by [[User:Galaxtone]] 19:49:22 Hmmm... no page for Funge Wars on the wiki. 19:49:36 [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56545&oldid=56533 * Ais523 * (+773) the main section doesn't work in that example because it's not large enough to fit a reference to anything but the bootstrap 19:53:57 FungeWars or Fungewars or BefungeWars? https://sourceforge.net/projects/fungewars/?source=typ_redirect https://github.com/electrodude/fungewars http://www.phlamethrower.co.uk/befunge/befwars.php 19:59:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:01:40 -!- trout has joined. 20:04:16 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:27:21 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:27:57 -!- heroux_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:32:54 -!- variable has joined. 20:35:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:43:26 -!- heroux has joined. 20:43:34 -!- heroux_ has joined. 21:00:15 [[Fungewars]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56546 * Impomatic * (+509) Create page 21:05:23 -!- trout has joined. 21:08:04 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:18:57 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56547&oldid=56453 * Impomatic * (+110) /* External resources */ link to Mutato 21:19:49 -!- Naergon has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:20:08 [[Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56548&oldid=56547 * Impomatic * (+0) /* External resources */ moved link to correct section 21:22:07 The programming language used by Tierra probably meets the definition of an esoteric programming language - " a computer programming language designed to experiment with weird ideas" 21:36:43 What programming language is that? 21:36:52 -!- variable has joined. 21:39:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:40:46 zzo38 there's a description of it here http://korsu.mbnet.fi/tierra.html 21:43:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:49:12 -!- Phantom___Hoover has joined. 21:52:52 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:06:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:07:14 -!- boily has joined. 22:08:25 -!- trout has joined. 22:11:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:40:04 -!- variable has joined. 22:42:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:44:36 -!- boily has quit (Quit: AFTER CHICKEN). 22:54:24 idea: predicated rules for SRS. "if all these patterns are present in the string, apply this rule." 22:58:14 ... <::> -> 23:12:01 -!- trout has joined. 23:14:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:21:12 -!- hakatashi has joined. 23:25:15 -!- hakatashi1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:41:21 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:44:28 -!- variable has joined. 23:47:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:48:31 -!- Phantom___Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:57:37 [[User:Language]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56549&oldid=56481 * HereToAnnoy * (+720) Registers made semi-usable and string manipulation 2018-07-10: 00:16:16 -!- trout has joined. 00:19:28 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:36:17 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:50:01 -!- variable has joined. 00:52:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:59:44 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:00:53 -!- atslash has joined. 01:10:49 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:15:22 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 01:21:35 -!- trout has joined. 01:25:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:52:26 -!- variable has joined. 01:56:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:14:39 -!- atriq has joined. 02:15:17 -!- moony has joined. 02:16:57 -!- brandons1n has joined. 02:17:11 -!- deltab_ has joined. 02:17:22 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 02:17:30 -!- heroux__ has joined. 02:19:22 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:19:29 -!- heroux_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:19:30 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:32 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:32 -!- extremelymoony has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:32 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:32 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:33 -!- Yurume_______ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:33 -!- \oren\ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:33 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:33 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:19:35 -!- heroux__ has quit (Changing host). 02:19:35 -!- heroux__ has joined. 02:20:50 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:21:27 -!- Yurume_______ has joined. 02:22:04 -!- lambdabot has joined. 02:28:08 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:29:32 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:31:08 -!- atslash has joined. 02:31:19 -!- variable has joined. 02:34:31 -!- \oren\ has joined. 02:51:13 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:01:17 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:02:27 -!- trout has joined. 03:05:11 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:15:55 -!- arseniiv has joined. 03:33:37 -!- variable has joined. 03:36:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:41:48 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 04:05:15 -!- trout has joined. 04:08:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:25:28 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:35:08 [[++Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56550 * A * (+1180) Created page with "{| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:center"| > |Move the pointer to the right |- | style="text-align:center"| < |..." 04:37:21 -!- variable has joined. 04:40:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:44:15 [[Stupid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56551 * A * (+1487) Created page with "'''Stupid''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by ..." 04:52:03 [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56552&oldid=56551 * A * (+50) 05:01:20 [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56553&oldid=50307 * A * (+116) /* Miscellaneous */ 05:04:02 [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56554&oldid=56552 * A * (-457) 05:04:50 [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56555&oldid=56554 * A * (-27) 05:07:58 -!- trout has joined. 05:10:31 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56556&oldid=56518 * A * (+47) /* Stlang */ 05:11:51 [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56557&oldid=56555 * A * (-84) 05:11:56 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:13:27 [[Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56558&oldid=56557 * A * (-123) 05:30:06 [[Bit Stupid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56559 * A * (+371) Created page with "'''Bit Stupid''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]]. {| class="wikitable" |- | , || inputs the register. |- | . || outputs a varia..." 05:31:48 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56560&oldid=56556 * A * (+28) /* Bitoven */ 05:33:54 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56561&oldid=56560 * A * (-1) /* Bit Stupid */ 05:35:08 [[Bit Stupid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56562&oldid=56559 * A * (+4) 05:38:41 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56563&oldid=56561 * A * (+49) /* Bit Stupid */ 05:39:40 -!- variable has joined. 05:43:18 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:45:53 [[Stop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56564 * A * (+335) Created page with "'''Stop''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]]. {| class="wikitable" |- | , || inputs the register. |- | : || starts a do...w..." 05:47:12 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56565&oldid=56563 * A * (+21) /* Stlang */ 05:47:35 -!- atslash has joined. 06:11:34 -!- trout has joined. 06:14:59 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:20:04 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:26:21 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:26:31 -!- hakatashi2 has joined. 06:36:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:39:21 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:44:35 -!- variable has joined. 06:47:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:58:19 [[Braine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56566 * A * (+277) Created page with "== Instructions == {| class="wikitable" | > || Increment the current byte and move the pointer right. Overflows to 0 when gets 255. |- | < || Brainfuck < |- | style="text-alig..." 06:59:23 [[Braine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56567&oldid=56566 * A * (-57) /* Instructions */ 07:02:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:15:47 -!- trout has joined. 07:18:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:19:59 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:41:15 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:42:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:43:06 [[Something?Oops!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56568 * A * (+776) Created page with "'''Something?Oops!''' is a simple esolang by [[User:Ihope127]]. The syntax is as follows: Statement: "?Oops" Identifier: A nonnegative integer or a va..." 07:47:26 -!- variable has joined. 07:49:29 [[Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56569&oldid=56568 * A * (+103) 07:49:56 [[Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56570&oldid=56569 * A * (+8) /* Example */ 07:51:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:53:12 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56571&oldid=56565 * A * (+92) /* Solo */ 07:54:43 [[Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56572&oldid=56570 * A * (-7) 07:57:06 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb. 08:04:45 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:14:22 [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56573&oldid=56553 * Oerjan * (-116) Undo revision 56553 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (New suggestions should go on talk page) 08:16:52 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56574&oldid=56115 * Oerjan * (+245) /* Simplification */ new section 08:18:14 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:18:27 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:19:08 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Igorrto * New user account 08:19:20 -!- trout has joined. 08:22:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:22:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:22:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:23:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:25:54 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56575&oldid=56461 * Igorrto * (+187) /* Introductions */ 08:26:51 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:33:18 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:45:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:47:39 [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56576&oldid=56545 * Oerjan * (+767) It does seem difficult 08:50:01 -!- SopaXT has joined. 08:50:22 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 08:50:28 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Disconnected by services). 08:50:30 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 08:52:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:52:58 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:53:45 -!- variable has joined. 08:54:21 [[Esketit]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56577 * Igorrto * (+837) Created page with "'''Esketit''' is an esoteric programming language that is designed to look like Lil Pumps song "Esketit". ==Syntax== Code always starts with CB on the beat ===Declaring va..." 08:55:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:59:51 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 09:04:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:06:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:11:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:24:52 -!- trout has joined. 09:28:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:54:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:57:03 -!- variable has joined. 09:59:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:29:05 -!- trout has joined. 10:31:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:00:28 -!- variable has joined. 11:03:35 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:12:16 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:32:27 -!- trout has joined. 11:35:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:01:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:04:03 -!- variable has joined. 12:07:16 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:35:45 -!- trout has joined. 12:39:08 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:07:18 -!- variable has joined. 13:09:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:37:27 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:39:24 -!- trout has joined. 13:42:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:11:18 -!- variable has joined. 14:13:42 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:41:43 -!- trout has joined. 14:45:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:59:04 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:13:53 -!- variable has joined. 15:17:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:26:12 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 15:27:18 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 15:39:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:45:19 -!- trout has joined. 15:48:55 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:01:54 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 16:04:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:05:45 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:07:06 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:19:31 -!- variable has joined. 16:22:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:25:59 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:27:32 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 16:28:49 -!- variable has joined. 16:29:04 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit). 16:36:20 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 16:49:32 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56578&oldid=56542 * Galaxtone * (+6195) Page redone and approved by creator. 16:51:38 -!- idris-bot has joined. 16:52:37 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56579&oldid=56571 * Galaxtone * (+15) Updated Surtic language, Updated truth-machine program. 17:02:28 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated). 17:04:24 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: thunderstorm). 17:26:57 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56580&oldid=56578 * Galaxtone * (+2) Final change of string commands 17:29:03 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56581&oldid=56580 * Galaxtone * (+274) Final change to reference commands 17:34:22 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56582&oldid=56581 * Galaxtone * (+236) Added some more details. 17:40:44 -!- Melvar has joined. 17:40:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:44:31 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56583&oldid=56027 * Igorrto * (+90) /* General languages */ 17:45:29 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56584&oldid=56582 * Galaxtone * (+628) Added some rules for I/O handling and such... 17:48:25 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56585&oldid=56584 * Galaxtone * (-166) /* C */ 17:49:20 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56586&oldid=56585 * Galaxtone * (+7) Fixed small formatting issue. 17:53:53 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56587&oldid=56586 * Galaxtone * (-158) Ok, I'm done, Reviewed it twice, It's done, If anyone notices small errors, Please fix. 18:03:07 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56588&oldid=56574 * Ais523 * (+579) /* Simplification */ too subjective 18:03:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:04:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:15:13 [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56589&oldid=56576 * Ais523 * (+1140) I think I've found a solution 18:17:13 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 18:17:58 [[Braine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56590&oldid=56567 * Ais523 * (+38) add a line break; this is a straightforward example of an FSM 18:18:22 [[Braine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56591&oldid=56590 * Ais523 * (+0) fix cat name 18:24:23 [[Talk:Something?Oops!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56592 * Ais523 * (+965) the computational class question here is pretty interesting 18:26:31 -!- mrrmx has joined. 18:31:19 oops, edit conflict 18:38:06 [[Talk:Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56593&oldid=56589 * Oerjan * (+207) Ninjaed 18:38:57 -!- moei has joined. 19:21:09 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:33:14 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:35:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 19:57:16 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:18:32 [[Talk:Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56594&oldid=56592 * Ais523 * (+1292) it's at least a PDA, there's only one operation that might make it a bit more powerful than that 20:49:54 -!- impomatic has left. 20:52:02 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:56:58 [[Talk:Something?Oops!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56595&oldid=56594 * Ais523 * (+1712) actually TC under some reasonable guesses as to negative-IP behaviour 21:05:59 -!- erkin has joined. 21:15:07 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56596&oldid=56587 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* B */ 21:15:35 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56597&oldid=56596 * Digital Hunter * (+1) /* S */ 21:16:29 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56598&oldid=56597 * Digital Hunter * (+59) /* Loop Statements */ 21:18:55 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:19:22 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:25:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:55:07 -!- brandons1n has changed nick to brandonson. 22:52:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:52:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:56:26 -!- boily has joined. 23:10:07 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 23:16:54 -!- Cale has left ("Leaving"). 23:17:52 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 23:29:24 fungot: eternal nostril. 23:29:25 boily: um i actually had met somebody just somebody like me to 23:57:27 -!- variable has joined. 23:59:27 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:59:54 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 2018-07-11: 00:12:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:29:24 -!- trout has joined. 00:31:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:37:48 -!- boily_ has joined. 00:37:48 -!- boily has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:46:17 -!- boily_ has changed nick to boily. 01:00:09 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 01:01:08 -!- variable has joined. 01:03:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:26:03 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:27:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 01:30:48 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SPELLBOOK CHICKEN). 01:32:26 -!- trout has joined. 01:35:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:04:00 -!- variable has joined. 02:07:35 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:31:07 [[Turing-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56599 * A * (+939) Created page with "==Syntax== All of the rules look like this: cnd.num.:cnd.direction num like: Q1:E<0 If the condition is Q, and the number on the tape is 1, the change the cond..." 02:34:35 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56600&oldid=56599 * A * (+87) /* Computation */ 02:37:13 -!- trout has joined. 02:40:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:41:43 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56601&oldid=56579 * A * (+57) /* Turth-machine */ 03:09:04 -!- variable has joined. 03:11:52 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:22:36 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 03:40:19 -!- trout has joined. 03:42:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:48:58 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:50:09 -!- aloril__ has joined. 04:07:51 [[User:Language]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56602&oldid=56549 * HereToAnnoy * (+207) Fixed Popular Problems example 04:10:51 -!- variable has joined. 04:14:29 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:28:03 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:29:34 -!- imode has joined. 04:42:20 -!- trout has joined. 04:45:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:03:14 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:13:20 -!- variable has joined. 05:16:53 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:26:27 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:42:13 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 05:45:07 -!- trout has joined. 05:48:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:16:58 -!- variable has joined. 06:19:56 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:33:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:52:04 -!- trout has joined. 06:54:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:23:39 -!- variable has joined. 07:27:04 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:48:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:54:53 -!- trout has joined. 07:58:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:02:34 -!- tromp has joined. 08:11:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:11:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:11:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:19:11 [[Esketit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56603&oldid=56577 * Igorrto * (+155) Added alternative Hello World 08:19:34 [[Esketit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56604&oldid=56603 * Igorrto * (+6) /* Hello World(alternative) */ 08:25:57 -!- variable has joined. 08:29:25 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:37:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:43:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:54:49 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:56:28 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 08:57:19 -!- trout has joined. 09:00:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:08:26 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56605&oldid=56600 * Oerjan * (+65) Confusing name, and no. 09:12:10 if he'd had states and symbols reversed, it would be more troublesome because of ais523's proof. 09:14:16 but it has "turing" and "machine" right in the name 09:16:39 my new esolang is a turing machine with any number of states but only one symbol, is it tc twh 09:29:33 -!- variable has joined. 09:32:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:34:54 shachaf: it is equivalent to some turing machines so it's totally tc hth 09:38:04 also the symbol is an unholy pentagram that summons a demon to do your bidding 09:38:09 wait, are pentagrams good luck or bad luck 09:38:32 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:38:43 shachaf: have you tried #esoteric on DAL.net? 09:39:05 `welcome 09:39:06 Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: . (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.) 09:39:44 Taneb: Do you like Day convolution? 09:40:06 I don't know it very well 09:41:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:43:05 how about regular convolution 09:43:28 It all seems a bit convoluted to me 09:44:06 How should I motivate tensor covariance and contravariance for someone who's used to thinking of tensors as arrays of numbers? 09:45:29 Start by showing them some things that behave as tensors but aren't arrays of numbers? 09:46:49 How should I understand tensor covariance and contravariance myself? 09:47:00 -!- j-bot has joined. 09:47:03 I have a sense of it but it's not as helpful as I'd like. 09:47:31 Also how should I think of a double-contravariant tensor T^i^j? 09:47:42 T_i^j and T_i_j both make more sense to me. 09:47:53 Find a bunch of examples and prove the relevant laws until you get an intuition for it 09:48:07 I'm out of my depth here by quite a way, I'm afraid 09:50:19 Hm 09:51:00 These abstractions are like monads, in the sense that most analogies are going to be misleading 09:51:32 They're also like monads in that monads are a kind of tensor in the appropriate category. 09:51:38 (Or a family of tensors?) 09:52:24 (T^x_{j_i} for each i in N. Or something.) 09:52:41 What about trace, how should I think of that? 10:00:06 -!- trout has joined. 10:03:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:06:28 I have a really bad intuition for trace 10:08:04 Bsaed on the category of bi-directional circuits 10:10:23 Trace in most categories makes sense. 10:10:30 I mean most traced monoidal categories. 10:10:44 But it's hard to translate that intuition to vector spaces. 10:13:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:25:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:32:15 -!- variable has joined. 10:35:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:43:48 mniip: monoids and comonoids are also just kinds of tensor families hth 10:44:43 What is trace for the category of endofunctors with composition? 10:44:53 trace? 10:45:18 Lots of monoidal categories have traces. 10:47:10 ...Maybe not this one, though. 10:47:54 I guess it would look like (forall a. u (f a) -> u (g a)) -> f a -> g a 10:48:00 Or (forall a. f (u a) -> g (u a)) -> f a -> g a 10:50:05 shachaf: you need dual objects to have trace,r ight? 10:50:42 No, trace is more general. 10:50:55 If you have duals you can define it in terms of them, though. 10:51:20 next you're going to tell me categories have determinants 10:51:38 Why not ;) 10:51:42 Not so sure about determinant. 10:51:51 I feel like trace is more fundamental but also I don't understand it. 10:52:15 But if you have tensor product and trace you can define composition in terms of that. 10:52:23 oh just multiply (end) all eigenvalues 10:53:28 Is the trace the coend of eigenvalues? 10:53:36 What are eigenvalues? 10:55:54 I know what scalars are, I guess. 10:57:58 So if f : A -> A and x : I -> A and k : I -> I, and f . x = x . k, then x is an eigenelement of f with eigenvalue k? 10:58:30 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:00:06 Is that all? 11:03:46 -!- trout has joined. 11:06:01 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:21:04 I don't know, I just made it up 11:23:10 I don't know what the end thing would mean but I think there might be something to this definition of eigenvalues. 11:23:24 If the only scalar is id, then this gives you the usual definition of fixed points. 11:24:04 (So that's what you get if your tensor is categorical product.) 11:25:15 But what does it mean to add eigenvalues? 11:25:39 Multiplying them is easier. 11:26:00 You can just compose them, I guess, because scalars commute. (Or you can tensor them and probably get the same thing?) 11:26:49 Though what's the multiplicity of an eigenvalue? 11:35:21 -!- variable has joined. 11:39:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:42:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:06:47 -!- trout has joined. 12:10:18 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:38:18 -!- variable has joined. 12:41:34 -!- mrrmx has joined. 12:42:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:56:20 [[Talk:Surtic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56606 * Digital Hunter * (+569) Created page with "==Idea from [[User:Digital Hunter]]== Hey, this message is technically addressed to [[User:Galaxtone]], but anyone else is welcome to provide ideas and the like. Instead of u..." 12:58:41 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56607&oldid=56598 * Digital Hunter * (+92) 12:59:47 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56608&oldid=56607 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Examples */ 13:00:06 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56609&oldid=56608 * Digital Hunter * (+8) /* Examples */ 13:02:56 [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56610&oldid=56606 * Digital Hunter * (+124) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */ new section 13:03:05 [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56611&oldid=56610 * Digital Hunter * (+101) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */ 13:05:43 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56612&oldid=56609 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */ 13:09:59 -!- trout has joined. 13:13:08 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:31:02 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:31:06 -!- MDude has joined. 13:41:11 -!- variable has joined. 13:44:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:12:35 -!- trout has joined. 14:15:29 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:22:40 -!- mrrmx has joined. 14:42:20 it would be cool if you could write an elf binary that interprets a brainfuck program, and that elf binary can itself be interpreted as a brainfuck program to produce the same result 14:43:52 -!- variable has joined. 14:46:43 that seems fairly trivial actually? 14:47:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:47:29 okay, maybe not trivial 14:48:25 but it feels like it's mostly just "write the non-bf program" -> "modify the code not to contain any of BF's control characters" -> "add the BF code in a data section" -> "verify that the ELF headers don't mess you up and, if they do, twiddle a bit until it works" 14:53:37 [[Talk:Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56613&oldid=56611 * Digital Hunter * (-225) /* WHOOPS completely forgot about this */ 14:59:06 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56614&oldid=56612 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* S */ I made the call for concatenate K and the call for "set character at a point to value in a cell" P, so that they didn't get mixed up with C and S for cells and strings 15:01:04 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56615&oldid=56605 * Plokmijnuhby * (+78) 15:02:14 alercah: does that count as trivial in your books? 15:05:29 izabera: it's not trivial to do 15:05:31 but it's a trivial problem 15:05:33 :P 15:06:26 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56616&oldid=56614 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* If Statements */ idk but I think it'll make interpreters easier 15:06:56 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56617&oldid=56616 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Infinite Cat */ 15:11:29 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56618&oldid=56617 * Digital Hunter * (+9) /* Instruction Syntax */ 15:15:13 -!- trout has joined. 15:18:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:32:55 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:49:03 -!- variable has joined. 15:51:06 -!- imode has joined. 15:52:09 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:53:17 [[Fungewars]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56619&oldid=56546 * Impomatic * (-1) punctuation 15:59:45 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:02:41 -!- arseniiv has joined. 16:04:20 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:04:46 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 16:05:37 hi all. does anybody seen working example of something converting from DFA to regexp? using any method 16:20:32 -!- trout has joined. 16:23:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:31:28 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:50:04 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:52:43 -!- variable has joined. 16:55:57 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:12:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:45 -!- aloril_ has joined. 17:16:17 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:17:22 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:24:46 -!- trout has joined. 17:27:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:27:29 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:54:58 PinealGlandOptic: working code, or is the theory enough? 17:55:30 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:56:10 PinealGlandOptic: https://cs.stackexchange.com/questions/2016/how-to-convert-finite-automata-to-regular-expressions has some discussion 17:56:16 and some code 17:56:19 -!- variable has joined. 17:56:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:58:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:19:25 [[Talk:Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56620&oldid=56613 * Galaxtone * (+303) Replied and changed up the style so it's easier to look at. 18:20:19 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56621&oldid=56618 * Galaxtone * (+113) Added a note. 18:22:41 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56622&oldid=56621 * Galaxtone * (-528) Applied Suggestion #1 18:23:24 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 18:28:20 -!- trout has joined. 18:31:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:48:21 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:53:34 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56623&oldid=56615 * Oerjan * (+167) Revert Plokmijnuhby's edit and explain why that's not enough to prove it non-TC (or else ''no'' Turing machine would be Turing-complete). 18:54:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:55:19 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56624&oldid=56622 * Galaxtone * (-1) Small change to syntax of string length command 18:56:30 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:58:41 -!- variable has joined. 18:58:42 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:00:37 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:02:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:04:51 -!- XorSwap has joined. 19:09:28 -!- moony has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:10:21 [[Transio]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56625 * Bzim * (+7750) Created page on language (with standard). 19:11:17 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:11:22 [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56626&oldid=56625 * Bzim * (+21) 19:11:22 -!- Bowserinator_ has joined. 19:20:27 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56627&oldid=56514 * Bzim * (+14) 19:22:40 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip). 19:22:40 -!- Bowserinator_ has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 19:29:08 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 19:30:37 -!- trout has joined. 19:30:50 regarding today's GG, i predict Gil reacting like a stereotypical kid in a candy store. 19:31:34 (ok, this is an easy prediction) 19:33:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:33:57 But will the intruder with pendre's (spelling?) lantern turn up? 19:34:25 -!- moony has joined. 19:35:24 Prende, it is. 19:36:37 -!- ATMunn has joined. 19:37:02 alercah: thanks, but I'm not that good to code these algos by myself :) 19:39:49 [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56628&oldid=56626 * Bzim * (+9) 19:46:18 int-e: hm right, they might want something from that place too... 19:46:44 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:48:18 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:53:47 PinealGlandOptic: there's examples of code in there, though 20:02:07 -!- variable has joined. 20:05:26 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:33:33 -!- trout has joined. 20:33:55 am I right lex/flex uses NFA because NFA can distinguish between "foo" and "fooo", while DFA is not? 20:35:52 PinealGlandOptic: No. NFAs and DFAs can recognize the same languages. An NFA may be exponentially smaller. 20:36:14 so regexp implementations, lex and flex uses NFA because of performance reasons? 20:36:26 not because NFA is more suitable? 20:36:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:38:17 I don't even know whether the premise is true. 20:39:33 (I've answered the part of the question that I could answer.) 20:40:18 int-e: thanks 20:42:58 -!- pir17 has joined. 20:44:05 @metar ENVA 20:44:06 ENVA 112020Z 12005KT CAVOK 19/16 Q1018 RMK WIND 670FT 17006KT 20:45:08 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:45:50 @metar KSEA 20:45:50 KSEA 111953Z 36009KT 320V030 10SM FEW040 25/12 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP228 T02500122 20:45:52 [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56629&oldid=56628 * Bzim * (+511) Added turing completeness. 20:54:02 PinealGlandOptic: “more suitable” is more general than “more expressive”, so someone could definitely say yes, NFA is more suitable in some context 20:54:42 as is DFA in other context , too 20:55:05 arseniiv: thanks 20:55:09 :) 21:01:00 -!- pir17 has quit (Quit: .). 21:04:46 -!- variable has joined. 21:05:35 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:07:16 [[Transio]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56630&oldid=56629 * Bzim * (+129) Added categories 21:07:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:08:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:08:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 21:09:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:16:10 -!- oerjan_ has joined. 21:23:20 -!- mrrmx has joined. 21:32:14 -!- mrrmx_ has joined. 21:33:04 -!- mrrmx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:56 -!- mrrmx_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:34:14 -!- mrrmx has joined. 21:36:37 -!- trout has joined. 21:39:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:09:48 -!- variable has joined. 22:11:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:13:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 22:14:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:14:48 -!- oerjan_ has quit (Quit: Etc.). 22:16:53 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 22:24:23 -!- imode has joined. 22:40:56 -!- trout has joined. 22:44:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:52:36 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:12:05 -!- variable has joined. 23:15:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:33:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:35:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:43:34 -!- trout has joined. 23:44:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:47:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 2018-07-12: 00:03:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:11:47 -!- wyldcraft has joined. 00:15:39 -!- variable has joined. 00:18:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:23:31 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:24:33 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 00:47:39 -!- trout has joined. 00:50:14 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 00:50:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:11:42 -!- wyldcraft has quit (Quit: Page closed). 01:19:58 -!- variable has joined. 01:22:29 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:50:50 -!- trout has joined. 01:54:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:19:04 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56631&oldid=56623 * A * (+41) /* Computational class */ 02:27:53 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:29:14 -!- variable has joined. 02:32:05 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:45:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: bedtime). 02:48:28 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: CHEAPIE! What did you do to the bouncer?! :P (jk)). 02:51:19 -!- atslash has joined. 02:56:58 -!- rdococ has joined. 03:01:02 -!- trout has joined. 03:03:37 -!- Warrigal_ has changed nick to tswett. 03:04:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:37:29 -!- erkin has joined. 03:41:58 -!- variable has joined. 03:44:06 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 04:02:45 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 04:08:08 -!- tswett has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:13:52 -!- trout has joined. 04:16:13 [[SimpleScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56632 * A * (+3251) Created page with "==Commands== -> Increment first register by n "" -> Push the unicode ids of the characters in..." 04:16:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:22:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:24:05 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56633&oldid=56632 * A * (-743) /* Commands */ 04:27:32 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56634&oldid=56633 * A * (-127) /* Commands */ 04:39:22 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56635&oldid=56634 * A * (-748) /* Commands */ 04:40:02 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 04:40:02 -!- rdococ has joined. 04:42:09 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56636&oldid=56635 * A * (-282) /* Commands */ 04:44:42 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56637&oldid=56636 * A * (-12) /* Commands */ 04:45:39 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56638&oldid=56637 * A * (+0) /* Commands */ 04:46:09 -!- variable has joined. 04:49:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:11:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:18:08 -!- trout has joined. 05:21:31 -!- arseniiv has joined. 05:21:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:27:54 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56639&oldid=56638 * A * (-219) /* Commands */ 05:49:41 [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56640&oldid=55673 * A * (+102) /* Tom's idea */ 05:50:40 [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56641&oldid=56640 * A * (+83) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ 05:50:54 -!- variable has joined. 05:53:37 [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56642&oldid=56641 * A * (+63) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ 05:53:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:54:36 [[Talk:Main Page]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56643&oldid=56642 * A * (+2) /* Someone should change the featured language. */ 06:09:11 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 06:11:28 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:22:40 -!- trout has joined. 06:25:19 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:26:30 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:53:54 -!- variable has joined. 06:57:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:09:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:13:52 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:15:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:20:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:25:19 -!- trout has joined. 07:28:22 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:43:19 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:45:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:56:35 -!- variable has joined. 08:00:26 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:04:01 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:28:21 -!- trout has joined. 08:32:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:43:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:45:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:45:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:45:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:00:26 -!- variable has joined. 09:03:29 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:25:44 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56644&oldid=56548 * A * (+150) /* Hello, World! */ 09:31:11 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56645&oldid=56644 * A * (+87) /* Hello, World! */ 09:32:05 -!- trout has joined. 09:33:45 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56646&oldid=56447 * A * (+2) /* Brainfuck */ 09:34:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:03:13 -!- variable has joined. 10:06:54 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:06:57 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:07:33 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:07:40 -!- brandonson has joined. 10:12:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lvl * New user account 10:16:23 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56647&oldid=56575 * Lvl * (+170) 10:23:22 -!- iconmaster has joined. 10:23:43 -!- iconmaster has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:34:43 -!- trout has joined. 10:38:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:06:07 -!- variable has joined. 11:07:02 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 11:09:15 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:37:31 -!- trout has joined. 11:40:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:08:56 -!- variable has joined. 12:11:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:15:37 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:22:29 [[Tip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56648 * Ais523 * (+15510) new language! 12:23:00 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56649&oldid=56627 * Ais523 * (+10) /* T */ +[[Tip]] 12:23:33 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56650&oldid=56649 * Ais523 * (+0) /* T */ apparently I can't alphabetise today 12:23:57 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56651&oldid=56484 * Ais523 * (+9) +[[Tip]] 12:24:52 -!- mrrmx has joined. 12:26:03 [[OISC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56652&oldid=56164 * Ais523 * (+103) /* List of OISCs */ +[[Tip]] 12:40:31 -!- trout has joined. 12:43:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:43:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:08:52 [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56653&oldid=56648 * Ais523 * (+194) external resources; also a clarification to what initial IP values are allowed 13:10:35 @tell ais523 Tip seems neat! 13:10:35 Consider it noted. 13:11:49 -!- variable has joined. 13:14:55 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:24:00 [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56654&oldid=56653 * Ais523 * (-159) /* External resources */ rm section; the content at the link was wrong (and was taken down as a result), meaning the section's now blank. Hopefully this will be fixable. 13:42:28 [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56655&oldid=56654 * Ais523 * (+159) complex undo revision 56654 by [[Special:Contributions/Ais523|Ais523]] ([[User talk:Ais523|talk]]): issue now fixed, although unfortunately it cost an extra byte :-( 13:43:43 -!- trout has joined. 13:46:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:52:35 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:54:02 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 13:55:11 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:55:39 @tell ais523 Opponent has a Sigarda, Host of Herons and a Seedborn Muse and three Amoeboid changelings, each but the Sigarda enchanted by a Diplomatic immunity. In each upkeep, Opponent uses Amoeboids to make Sigarda and Muse have all creature types. How do you clear his table with your Omnitell once you go off? 13:55:39 Consider it noted. 13:57:42 @tell ais523 More importantly, given that the Omnitell deck runs eight wishes, how can you be sure that it's still tournament-viable after you replace much of its sideboard? 13:57:42 Consider it noted. 13:58:14 Since apparently ais523 still only comes in during the night when I must sleep to be able to work the next day, I'll try tell instead of catching him online. 13:58:35 Or rather, catching him on IRC. Because he does keep editing the wiki during the day. 13:59:28 Not going on IRC during the work day is probably sensible 14:02:22 Taneb: yes, but he _could_ go to IRC in the evening. 14:03:09 Oh, of course 14:04:55 Which were those two esolangs where the instruction pointer moves in a 2-plane like in fungeoids, but can be at rational points, not constrained to a grid? 14:05:40 And one of them had no or very little state other than its instruction pointer I think. 14:05:51 I'm asking because Tip reminds me of that. 14:07:05 [[Collatz function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56656&oldid=51400 * Ais523 * (+24) /* See also */ +[[Tip]] 14:15:44 -!- variable has joined. 14:18:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:31:39 [[Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56657&oldid=56655 * Ais523 * (-4) /* Variations */ probably one decimal place is enough, but that wasn't actually proven above 14:47:08 -!- trout has joined. 14:49:34 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:50:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:57:10 -!- xa0 has joined. 15:18:44 -!- variable has joined. 15:21:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:30:38 -!- erkin has joined. 15:31:46 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 15:43:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:47:18 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:49:36 -!- trout has joined. 15:53:15 -!- joast has joined. 15:53:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:18:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 16:21:36 -!- variable has joined. 16:24:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:24:35 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:33:05 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:53:40 -!- trout has joined. 16:56:46 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:03:42 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:11:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:11:42 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:16:33 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:24:46 -!- variable has joined. 17:27:53 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:50:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:57:20 Sgeo: what's going on with olist twh 17:57:38 -!- trout has joined. 18:00:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:13:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:14:07 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:16:51 -!- imode has joined. 18:22:08 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 18:22:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:28:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:36:20 -!- variable has joined. 18:38:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:45:14 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:46:56 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 19:00:04 -!- mrrmx has joined. 19:07:49 -!- trout has joined. 19:11:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:17:29 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:33:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:38:57 -!- variable has joined. 19:42:33 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:47:35 Pentragrams are neither good luck nor bad luck. There is a normal circled pentagram, and then there is the upsidedown Satanic pentagram. 19:50:06 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:50:38 Right. The pentagrams are just tools to summon a demon and attempt to bind them to your will. It's your command to the demon that may be good or evil. 19:52:58 It is just a mark. The marks they use for demon summoning rituals might or might not resemble pentagrams, but anyways having a pentagram does not imply anything about demon summoning. 19:53:58 The circled pentagram is a common Wiccan symbol; it is not used to summon demons in this way. 19:55:07 (I don't know much about demon summoning stuff (I am skeptical if it is even possible), but a pentagram is just the geometric shape and is related more to Wicca than demon summoning anyways.) 19:55:43 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:56:03 ais523! 19:56:05 I think according to most sources, the pentagram's role is to prevent the demon from escaping and killing the summoner 19:56:35 I have some nitpicking questions to your M:tG construction because I can't find real problems with it! 19:56:35 the pentagram itself doesn't actually help with the summoning or binding 19:56:36 wob_jonas: huh, I didn't see your comment on IRC but I'm logreading it and saw it on the log 19:56:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 19:56:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:56:56 are my messages getting through now? 19:56:59 LKoen_: Yes, I think that is what I have read too, actually. 19:57:03 apparently so 19:57:07 ais523: Yes, at least to me they are getting through 19:57:14 ais523: yes 19:57:18 maybe I shoud just use my client for sending and stalker mode in the logs for receiving :-P 19:57:28 ais523: sure, that works 19:57:37 The pentagram itself is just a shape (which isn't used only by demon summoners, if it is even used by them at all). 19:57:54 -!- imode has joined. 19:57:57 Which were those two esolangs where the instruction pointer moves in a 2-plane like in fungeoids, but can be at rational points, not constrained to a grid? ← Trajedy/Conedy; see also Nopfunge 19:58:22 @messages 19:58:39 lambdabot: ping 19:59:22 wob_jonas: re: wishes, some of the sideboard is more important than other parts, I kept all the most vital parts 19:59:36 yep, trajedy and conedy are the ones 19:59:42 the deck's unlikely to have as high a win rate but it should still be high enough to pull the combo off at least once in a tournament 19:59:55 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:00:23 ok, that seems a reasonable thing to say 20:01:53 Taneb: re: Tip, it's basically just a case of looking at iterated collatz functions (because thanks to quintopia, it holds the record for shortest implementation of a TC language in a non-eso language) and realising that it's more complex than necessary 20:02:04 although the need for rationals rather than integers is painful when you're implementing it in something low-powered 20:03:39 all the messing about with finite fields that I did semi-recently was helpful, though 20:05:45 yeah, although you only need exact division, no other difficult integer operations such as division and remainder or gcd 20:06:02 well, in practice you need modulo to be able to figure out which command to run 20:06:09 but apart from that, yes 20:06:13 hmm, true 20:06:33 and even those can be difficult to implement in something like M:tG :-) 20:06:53 right, Tip doesn't seem like a good language to implent in M:tG 20:07:16 Tip is like conedy or fractran in how it stores data 20:07:19 although divmod is generally very easy if you have a state machine available, which is why it's the usual building block used for counter-machine-like TC proofs 20:07:53 well, Tip is a "dispatch on remainder" type of language, those tend to be TC 20:08:01 compare to conedy which is "dispatch on integer part" 20:08:13 which I'm beginning to suspect is only PDA-strength 20:09:10 that said, I thought the same about Something?Oops!, which turned out to be TC 20:09:24 even though it's dispatch-on-remainder 20:09:43 (it's one of A/Asdf's languages, most of them are atrocious but that one got me thinking) 20:11:53 -!- trout has joined. 20:12:18 wait, A/Asdf makes OISC languages? Do we know he's not also Iamcalledbob then? 20:12:30 we think he probably is iamcalledbob 20:12:42 oh good 20:12:50 I only saw you mention that A and Asdf was the same 20:13:03 I've been respecting GDPR and not running checkuser or anything like that (that's reserved for spambots) but it's just obvious based on the way they're acting 20:13:07 but I probably missed a lot during being in a psychiatric hospital for 18 days 20:13:10 either the same person (most likely) or a group of friends (less likely) 20:14:04 of which the last four nights were on a bed that makes it almost impossible to speak, while the psychiatrist told me that for a stress-related problem like this, sleeping well is very important. 20:14:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:14:36 that was the worst part though. the hospital and its drastic sedation seems to have worked to at least temporarily reset me 20:15:53 good luck with your recovery! 20:18:32 Tip is frustrating because of all the special cases in Jelly's syntax 20:18:37 ais523: you didn't answer my other crazy nitpicking question though 20:18:51 wob_jonas: oh, I simply didn't expect the situation to come up :-D 20:19:15 in a game as complex as M:tG, there have to be some board states which are impregnable short of Karn Liberated (whose effect is generally considered to trump anything else) 20:19:23 yeah, it's not something that will happen in an actual Legacy tourney game. the opponent would win or lose before it comes up. 20:19:52 on the other hand, most decks are focused enough that even a relatively weak survival combo can be enough 20:20:02 `card-by-name fortune thief 20:20:03 Fortune Thief \ 4R \ Creature -- Human Rogue \ 0/1 \ Damage that would reduce your life total to less than 1 reduces it to 1 instead. \ Morph {R}{R} (You may cast this card face down as a 2/2 creature for {3}. Turn it face up any time for its morph cost.) \ TSP-R 20:20:07 `card-by-name shielding plax 20:20:08 Shielding Plax \ 2(g/u) \ Enchantment -- Aura \ ({(g/u)} can be paid with either {G} or {U}.) \ Enchant creature \ When Shielding Plax enters the battlefield, draw a card. \ Enchanted creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control. \ DIS-C 20:20:58 I won a game against a serious tournament deck with that combo a while ago because, fragile though it is, the deck only had one answer (Pyroclasm) and didn't draw it 20:21:55 [[Tip]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56658&oldid=56657 * Oerjan * (+1) typo 20:22:12 [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 80 seconds. 20:22:21 ah, I know that feeling. not from tournaments, but from casual games, where I often play green or white, which have very few answers to some things. 20:22:37 every colour is supposed to have things it can't answer 20:22:48 sure 20:22:48 except white, which can actually answer anything but is meant to have problems with card flow 20:22:59 yeah, that's also sort of accurate 20:23:37 white can run out of steam 20:23:52 green can also answer everything but normally takes multiple cards to do so 20:24:05 err, except instants/sorceries, it has no answer to those 20:25:31 actually it's probably only red that has a really hard weakness (can't get rid of enchantments except by killing their controller) 20:25:49 as black and blue both have general-purpose answers which are restricted in timing (discard and counterspells respectively) 20:26:40 there are some ways how my casual white decks try to defend against that: (1) win with Armored Ascension, which goes against the normal white rules that white doesn't have large creatures or auras that increase power by more than one, (2) Arcane Spyglass to burn away my lands for cards, (3) just make the deck fast enough, which is possible since Lo 20:26:40 rwyn, although not as much as in red-white, (4) blue splash 20:27:42 tournament white decks normally try to slow their opponent down instead 20:28:10 typically using "symmetrical" effects that make certain things more expensive or unplayable for both players, when those things happen not to be in your deck ;-) 20:28:17 `card-by-name Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 20:28:18 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben \ 1W \ Legendary Creature -- Human Soldier \ 2/1 \ First strike \ Noncreature spells cost {1} more to cast. \ DKA-R 20:29:07 I'm still considering to eventually go back to Magic though, and there are a lot of things in each color that exist on cards now that didn't use to exist 20:29:15 the power level has increased 20:29:23 [[Talk:Tip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56659 * Oerjan * (+369) /* Computational class */ new section 20:29:40 there's like a ton of cards I'd like to buy 20:29:53 ton of cheap cards 20:30:14 Magic's being really mismanaged at the moment, I suspect 20:31:19 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56660&oldid=56647 * Oerjan * (-39) Let's not confuse the next editor. 20:31:40 no, quite the contrary, at least from their point of view. they manage to produce more and more new cards every year, and get a lot of income, ever since Tenth Edition, but they always do it so sneakily that it's not obvious to notice 20:31:59 they're doing good business where they're always selling more and more, even potentially to me if I ever return 20:32:26 without making it too obvious that they're doing such a business 20:33:06 I'm not sure, they've had a few disasters recently, such as Iconic Masters 20:33:58 and they make it really look like it will never stop, which they have to, because there's basically no clean way to stop producing new Magic sets, for if people ever suspect that Wizards is trying to do that in the next three years, they will stop buying Magic immediately 20:34:43 -!- hakatashi2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:35:03 -!- hakatashi has joined. 20:35:25 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:37:23 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:44:40 -!- variable has joined. 20:47:48 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:56:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:57:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:57:05 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:01:31 -!- MDude has joined. 21:07:52 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 21:12:46 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 21:13:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:15:45 [[Talk:Tip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56661&oldid=56659 * Ais523 * (+743) somehow I missed that the Fractran calculation didn't use the s part of the Collatz function 21:15:49 -!- imode has joined. 21:20:16 [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56662&oldid=56230 * Igorrto * (+75) /* Looks Like */ 21:21:19 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:22:58 -!- trout has joined. 21:25:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:54:17 -!- variable has joined. 21:57:24 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:57:43 -!- mrrmx has joined. 22:12:16 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:26:22 -!- trout has joined. 22:29:29 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:35:51 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:57:14 -!- variable has joined. 23:00:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:00:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:01:33 -!- imode has joined. 23:03:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:07:40 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:10:16 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:11:33 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:17:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:18:52 -!- atslash has joined. 23:24:31 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:28:47 -!- trout has joined. 23:32:32 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:32:43 -!- tromp has joined. 23:36:59 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 23:37:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:41:33 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 2018-07-13: 00:02:02 -!- variable has joined. 00:02:13 -!- tromp has joined. 00:02:50 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 00:04:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:06:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:09:49 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56663&oldid=56457 * DMC * (+0) 00:21:11 -!- tswett has joined. 00:21:54 Can there be two different groups G1 and G2 so that the direct products G1 * G1 and G2 * G2 are isomorphic? 00:33:45 -!- trout has joined. 00:36:54 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:55:38 -!- tromp has joined. 01:00:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:01:09 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: Page closed). 01:01:37 -!- tswett has joined. 01:02:30 My hobby: trying to do theorem proving in languages that aren't suited for it at all. 01:02:43 Here's my definition of a monoid in C#: https://lpaste.net/5400411184144842752 01:03:34 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 01:04:39 -!- variable has joined. 01:07:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:36:55 -!- trout has joined. 01:38:03 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:40:13 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:49:04 -!- tromp has joined. 01:53:46 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:04:04 -!- imode has joined. 02:07:36 -!- variable has joined. 02:11:47 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:42:29 -!- tromp has joined. 02:45:49 -!- trout has joined. 02:46:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:48:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:19:10 -!- variable has joined. 03:23:10 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:40:11 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56664&oldid=56645 * A * (+34) /* See also */ 03:52:23 -!- trout has joined. 03:55:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:23:46 -!- variable has joined. 04:26:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:29:11 -!- tromp has joined. 04:33:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:02:50 -!- trout has joined. 05:05:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:23:22 -!- tromp has joined. 05:27:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:34:44 -!- variable has joined. 05:37:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:06:42 -!- trout has joined. 06:10:20 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:16:45 -!- tromp has joined. 06:22:08 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:25:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:38:14 -!- variable has joined. 06:41:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:44:52 -!- arseniiv has joined. 06:48:45 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:09:32 -!- trout has joined. 07:12:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:26:46 -!- tromp has joined. 07:34:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:38:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:41:14 -!- variable has joined. 07:44:39 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:45:16 -!- j-bot has joined. 08:01:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:05:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:12:14 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:12:27 -!- trout has joined. 08:15:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:44:28 -!- variable has joined. 08:47:38 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:56:22 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 09:00:18 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56665&oldid=56646 * A * (+98) /* Brainloller */ 09:02:39 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56666&oldid=56665 * A * (-38) /* Brainloller */ 09:03:21 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Hello.gif]]" 09:03:49 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Helloworld.gif]]" 09:04:50 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56669&oldid=56666 * A * (+9) /* Brainloller */ 09:05:42 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56670&oldid=56669 * A * (+39) /* Brainloller */ 09:12:20 [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56671&oldid=45244 * A * (+66) /* Example */ 09:13:13 [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56672&oldid=56671 * A * (-66) /* Example */ 09:13:31 [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56673&oldid=56672 * A * (+66) /* Example */ 09:15:39 -!- trout has joined. 09:18:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:29:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:36:38 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:47:27 -!- variable has joined. 09:50:41 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:53:10 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56674&oldid=56284 * A * (+105) /* Stuck? We'll try again */ 09:56:40 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56675&oldid=56674 * A * (+199) /* Good news */ 09:59:14 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56676&oldid=56675 * A * (+178) /* Step 2 */ 10:03:07 [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56677&oldid=17477 * A * (+98) /* Input/Output */ 10:05:22 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56678&oldid=56676 * A * (+36) /* Step 4 */ 10:06:50 [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56679&oldid=56677 * A * (+154) /* Input/Output */ 10:11:43 [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56680&oldid=56679 * A * (+249) /* Inverse instruction? */ 10:13:18 [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56681&oldid=56680 * A * (-1) /* Inverse instruction? */ 10:15:35 [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56682&oldid=56681 * A * (-49) /* Inverse instruction? */ 10:17:51 `ysaclist 78 10:17:52 ysaclist 78: boily shachaf 10:19:12 -!- trout has joined. 10:19:14 -!- atslash has joined. 10:22:32 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:28:05 [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56683&oldid=56682 * A * (-1) /* Inverse instruction? */ 10:49:52 -!- variable has joined. 10:53:02 oerjan: wow. judging from those edits, A is definitely Iamcalledbob's sock. 10:53:36 (which is what ais523 said too, I know, I'm just saying that now I'm certain of it too) 10:53:38 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:21:06 -!- trout has joined. 11:24:56 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:44:42 -!- mniip has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:46:50 -!- mniip has joined. 11:52:35 -!- variable has joined. 11:56:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:24:38 -!- trout has joined. 12:26:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:54:26 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:55:54 -!- variable has joined. 12:56:12 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56684&oldid=56477 * Ais523 * (+391) more about TCness 12:58:31 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Brainloller Hello.gif]]": Duplicated file: this is the unused copy out of the two; both were uploaded by the same user at about the same time 12:58:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:00:12 [[Talk:BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56685&oldid=56683 * Ais523 * (+358) /* Input determination */ that's , not TC 13:08:31 `olist 1126 13:08:32 olist 1126: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 13:12:15 o 13:28:18 -!- trout has joined. 13:31:21 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:31:30 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:32:27 oh! the people on the forums actually predicted this twist from a hidden hint the Giant gave some strips ago 13:33:04 ais523: now that A is editing [[BF instruction minimalization]], it's even more obvious that he's Iamcalledbob's sock. 13:33:22 yes 13:33:39 or, not so much a sock as someone who keeps bouncing their main around 13:35:08 yeah 13:36:01 they seem to be learning now, though 13:36:16 like, if you repeatedly point out their misconceptions about TCness they seem to fix them for future edits… 13:36:40 and someone throwing out that many ideas is useful just because occasionally they give inspiration 13:37:23 and he waited until after his ban expired to create a new user 13:37:31 both times, I think 13:38:50 let me see, did he learn to actually follow the clear instructions in [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] for the later accounts? 13:39:26 he discovered he could create multiple accounts a while back and created and introduced like four of them (admitting who he was), then never used him 13:39:30 *never used them 13:39:42 A and Asdf came later without any /admitted/ link to the original account, but it's obvious 13:40:12 What's he trying to achieve? 13:40:53 he's just someone with more enthusiasm than knowledge, I think 13:40:59 normally that ends up manifesting as one BF derivative 13:41:10 Apparently partially. Never followed 'sign your name by writing in "~~~~" (without quotes),' but at least follows 'write a short description (one or two sentences is enough) about what brings you to this wiki' for some of the later accounts 13:41:27 in this case it ended up manifesting as like twenty derivatives of random languages, plus a very optimistic view on TCness 13:41:29 ais523: how are you typing /your/ wiki signature btw? (the one with the U and C links) 13:41:45 int-e: three tildes and a lot of substed templates 13:41:48 ais523: it seems a very weird way to go about it 13:42:06 int-e: there's a setting in [[Special:Preferences]] to change what the name part of three/four tildes expands to 13:42:10 the date's in the signature itself as {{subst:CURRENTDAY}} and friends 13:42:28 I partially think it might be a troll, but if so it's a /really good/ troll 13:42:36 very few people try to promote their language by renaming [[Main Page]], after all 13:42:50 wob_jonas: ah 13:42:55 it's apparently very fashionable on some mediawikis to modify that to include a link to the talk page and some vanity stuff, often making it hard to tell your actual username 13:43:15 so much that on hu.wikipedia someone explicitly asked me to put a link to my talk page into my signature, so I eventually did 13:43:36 (I do not intend to imitate it, but I was curious how it is done.) 13:43:43 wob_jonas: well, after the userbox wars, there wasn't much appetite for enforcing minor signature variations 13:43:51 *minor signature violations 13:44:23 on other wikis I just make it expand to "– [[User:b_jonas|b_jonas]]" so I don't have to type "-- ~~~~" but only "~~~~" 13:45:09 ais523: yeah, as long as it still clearly links to the user page or talk page of the right user, and isn't horrible, we just allow anything in sigs 13:46:14 still much better than the fashion on some phpbb-based forums where some people have huge multiline sigs and avatars that often take up more screen space than their actual post. 13:46:46 you can just turn those off 13:46:51 apparently on those forums the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text 13:47:14 one phpBB-based forum I'm on autocollapses signatures that are longer than three or four lines of text, IIRC 13:47:23 but you can expand them to see the whole thing 13:47:29 or turn them off altogether in your options 13:48:00 apparently on those forums the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text => (rofl) 13:48:36 oh I misread as “should” 13:49:02 ah yes, the typical mod-enforced rule is that the sig shouldn't take up more screen space than six lines of normal text _before expanding spoiler tags_ 13:49:51 it’s a shame I rarely visit these forums) 13:50:02 DMM's Irregular forum has much stricter rules. no images in posts, ever. that's actually a good rule. I hate how on most phpbb forums any poster can just embed any off-site image and track who loads their post how many times. 13:50:38 the only think phpbb itself enforces is that post look ugly and the avatar size is capped. 13:50:57 :D 13:51:32 phpBB often has issues matching tags 13:51:48 it's fairly frequent to accidentally make a post that closes more tags than it opens and causes the rest of the page to break out of its container… 13:52:30 ais523: yeah. doesn't allow links to urls with parenthesis in them. quite a similar bug than on Stack Exchange's markdown formatter, but at least there in posts you can work it around, on phpbb you can't 13:52:37 btw are there esolangs modeling simething like a cell colony? to compute, you have to grow a colony from one primordial cell you are only free to “program” beforehand 13:53:14 oh, closes more tags than it opens? I remember back when perlmonks allowed that. it's still a viewer user's setting whether to enforce correct tag nesting, but defaults to yes. 13:54:16 arseniiv: hmm, that sort of computation is normally done in 2D cellular automata but they tend to need very big initial states to be TC, which is not what you're looking for at all 13:54:43 perhaps some of the 2D automata with lots of colors that support programmable self-replicators are close to what you want 13:55:30 arseniiv: hmm. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering requires you to build up programs from the few cards you have, and in each step you can only compose one card onto a slot from left or right and putting the composition result back in the slot, but this allows building up anything because at least one card represents a function that can 13:55:30 read the value of other slots 13:55:49 I tampered with this idea once a week ago, using “genes” and “molecules” they produce, and a quirky cell division mechanism (neighboring cell chains shift, if not enough space), but in the end it felt not so cool so I abandoned it 14:00:27 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:00:36 -!- variable has joined. 14:00:51 wob_jonas: interesting game there, albeit a hard one for me 14:01:32 arseniiv: it's hard for everyone. ICFP contests get harder and harder every year, it seems. 14:01:45 :D 14:02:32 back in the old days the tasks were simple enough that a lone programmer had a chance to win, these days tasks involve so many complicated things that they require a team of three or four programmers who already know how to form an effective team 14:03:35 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:04:04 Didn't a lone programmer win last year? 14:04:59 I dunno 14:05:36 I can't enter this year :( 14:06:35 Taneb: yes, a lone C++ programmer won 14:07:40 when does the challenge start? 14:07:44 I probably won't participate 14:08:05 I was on the fence about a fairly recent previous challenge (the one where you had to claim edges to build a network), and once the twists started was very glad I didn't compete 14:08:05 https://icfpcontest2018.github.io/ 14:08:18 July 20th to 23rd 14:08:25 this time next week 14:08:52 16:00 UITC, hmm 14:09:01 UTC even 14:09:23 (it's now 14:10 UTC) 14:10:11 Anyway my plan is to look at it and not actually participate... like almost every year. 14:10:45 It's kind of mean to schedule it into the middle of FLoC. 14:10:48 hmm 14:10:55 wait, no. It's end of FLoC. 14:18:11 int-e: mine too 14:18:46 look at it, and if by some miracle it's something easy and I have time then participate with something I write quickly, but definitely not spend much time on it 14:18:55 i.e. my plan is the same 14:32:23 -!- trout has joined. 14:35:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:58:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 15:00:05 -!- erkin has joined. 15:05:32 -!- variable has joined. 15:08:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:38:39 -!- trout has joined. 15:39:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:41:13 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:43:32 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 15:50:54 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:09:58 -!- variable has joined. 16:13:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:41:04 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:41:12 -!- trout has joined. 16:41:20 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:42:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:44:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:46:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:53:34 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:02:14 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:13:34 -!- variable has joined. 17:16:26 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:38:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:44:49 -!- trout has joined. 17:45:02 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:47:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:48:01 -!- imode has joined. 18:03:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:09:09 -!- atslash has joined. 18:10:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 18:11:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:15:50 -!- variable has joined. 18:19:16 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:43:26 Sgeo: See, I knew bugging you about it would help. 18:46:40 -!- trout has joined. 18:50:11 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:00:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:17:53 -!- variable has joined. 19:22:02 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:32:23 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 19:33:31 -!- Gregor has joined. 19:38:54 -!- atslash has joined. 19:40:04 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: AdiIRC is updating to v3.1). 19:40:36 -!- MDude has joined. 19:42:36 `smlist 472 19:42:37 smlist 472: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 19:43:26 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:49:18 -!- trout has joined. 19:53:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:05:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:16:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 20:21:14 -!- variable has joined. 20:24:26 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:30:58 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 20:32:40 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:37:05 -!- tromp has joined. 20:38:25 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:41:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:42:37 `` wc -l quotes; tail -n1 quotes 20:42:37 1324 quotes \ Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. 20:52:15 -!- trout has joined. 20:55:52 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:14:37 can someone tell me how something like a register machine with a fixed number of registers is able to store and manipulate arbitrary datastructures like adjacency matrices for graphs? 21:16:43 trying to figure out how you're able to squeeze out different representations of data from multiset rewriting. 21:23:16 imode: what do you mean by multiset rewriting? 21:23:52 -!- variable has joined. 21:24:20 a rewriting system with rules of the form `m -> m'`, where m and m' are subsets of a larger multiset. 21:24:48 So, Petri nets. 21:24:57 and P-systems with one membrane, yeah. 21:25:08 and FRACTRAN. 21:25:50 (Multiset rewriting exists in the literature but what I found has more structure.) 21:26:10 what literature? :o 21:27:17 -!- ineiros has joined. 21:27:29 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:27:42 imode: Petri nets are not just similar, they are isomorphic to what you describe; represent the rule m -> m' by a transition that has arcs from each element of m and arcs to each element of m'. 21:28:27 (you'll need places for all elements in the rules) 21:28:28 yeah, I'm aware. register machines are a subset of multiset rewriting systems with inhibitors. 21:28:49 I've just never seen stuff like datastructures be dealt with in them like I have with traditional TMs or string rewriting systems. 21:29:04 but anyway, as to your question I think people generally simulate two stacks, which gives you a Turing machine, and leave it at that 21:29:12 I see. 21:29:40 so not really useful in and of themselves, then... that's a shame. 21:31:53 To simulate a stack, you only need multiplication and division with remainder by a fixed constant (the size of the stack alphabet). So one register for each stack, and one scratch register. So 3 registers is TC. To work with 2 registers, people then simulate a 3-register machine by representing (a,b,c) by 2^a 3^b 5^c, and again multiplication and division by constants (namely the primes 2,3,5)... 21:32:00 ...wins the day. 21:32:39 Obviously the complexity suffers horribly. 21:33:42 -!- mrrmx has joined. 21:34:23 Alternatively, you can execute recursive functions on a Minsky machine. But again, you'll have to work quite hard in order to represent complex data structures as natural numbers. 21:34:39 yeah, the number of operations just grows and grows... I was just wondering if there were any shortcuts other than godel numbering for representing structured data. 21:34:39 And I don't think Petri nets make this any easier. 21:35:50 guess turing got it right the first time. :P 21:36:39 if the structure you rewrite over doesn't have enough "structure", for the lack of a better term, complexity suffers, both in terms of operations and constructing algorithms. 21:36:50 TMs are awkward to, since tapes lack random access. 21:37:29 (well... efficient random access) 21:37:31 right, but it's not hard to constructively build random access via multi-tape or multi-track constructions. 21:37:54 I can't imagine building RAM out of a register machine without defaulting to an intermediary TM. 21:39:25 No matter how you do it there's an unavoidable exponential slowdown compared to RAM. 21:39:52 yup. which is why I turn to things like string rewriting systems. 21:40:04 Because the information has to be stored in a finite number of registers, so they have to grow exponentially, and the only way to extract information from a register is to reduce it all the way to 0. 21:41:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:42:46 So basically Minsky machines are inherently impractical, so there's hardly any incentive for optimization. 21:42:50 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:43:21 yeaaah... I'll just stick with regular ol' strings. 21:54:46 -!- trout has joined. 21:55:51 -!- moei has joined. 21:58:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:04:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:23:28 -!- tromp has joined. 22:26:16 -!- variable has joined. 22:27:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:29:53 -!- tromp has joined. 22:29:53 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:57:13 -!- trout has joined. 22:58:51 someone mentioned that composing programs in Thue involves composition on the symbol level. how would you "wrap up" a thue program to be used by another thue program? 22:59:41 I guess it has to do with composing unrestricted grammmars. 23:00:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:28:40 -!- variable has joined. 23:29:56 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:31:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 23:43:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:55:24 -!- mrrmx has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:59:19 -!- tromp has joined. 23:59:29 -!- trout has joined. 2018-07-14: 00:03:29 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:03:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:08:38 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 00:13:03 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:18:16 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 00:31:00 -!- variable has joined. 00:34:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:39:15 -!- tromp has joined. 00:41:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:44:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:51:17 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:54:54 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:03:03 -!- trout has joined. 01:05:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:08:19 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:09:43 -!- brandonson has joined. 01:32:55 -!- tromp has joined. 01:34:06 -!- sftp has joined. 01:34:22 -!- variable has joined. 01:37:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:37:44 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:42:28 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56686&oldid=56678 * A * (-117) /* Good news */ 02:02:11 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56687&oldid=56684 * A * (+60) /* Turing-completeness */ 02:05:23 -!- trout has joined. 02:08:56 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:12:39 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Truth machine.gif]]" 02:14:07 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56689&oldid=56601 * A * (+61) /* brainfunct */ 02:22:42 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:26:17 -!- tromp has joined. 02:28:30 -!- olsner has joined. 02:28:43 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 02:30:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:30:40 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:36:26 -!- variable has joined. 02:40:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:42:21 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:49:38 -!- olsner has joined. 03:02:04 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:05:49 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56690&oldid=56474 * A * (+502) /* An improvement */ 03:07:36 -!- trout has joined. 03:10:41 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:14:37 -!- trout has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 03:14:43 -!- olsner has joined. 03:19:33 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:24:19 -!- variable has joined. 03:41:27 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 03:48:37 -!- olsner has joined. 03:52:14 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56691&oldid=56690 * A * (+210) /* Explanation */ 04:09:50 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56692&oldid=56689 * A * (+86) /* brainfuck */ 04:12:19 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56693&oldid=56692 * A * (-86) /* brainfuck */ 04:12:51 -!- tromp has joined. 04:14:19 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56694&oldid=56693 * A * (+76) /* brainfuck */ 04:17:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:35:50 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif]]" 04:35:51 [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * A * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif]]" 04:36:54 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56697&oldid=56694 * A * (+80) /* Brainloller */ 04:37:33 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * A * uploaded "[[File:Shorter Brainloller Truth machine.gif]]" 04:39:00 [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * A * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Shorter Brainloller Truth machine.gif]]" 05:06:58 -!- tromp has joined. 05:11:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:51:14 Probably the duplicate file "Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif" should be deleted. (Converting to PNG and avoiding the dithering, is also good to have) 06:04:05 -!- variable has joined. 06:29:17 -!- tromp has joined. 06:33:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:37:20 -!- trout has joined. 06:39:44 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:07:35 -!- tromp has joined. 07:08:24 -!- variable has joined. 07:11:11 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:12:54 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:39:13 -!- trout has joined. 07:42:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:01:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:06:47 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 08:09:53 -!- variable has joined. 08:13:35 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:33:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:41:55 -!- trout has joined. 08:44:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:13:41 -!- variable has joined. 09:16:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:17:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:44:25 -!- trout has joined. 09:47:50 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:58:36 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:00:04 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:15:33 -!- variable has joined. 10:19:02 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:26:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 10:47:17 -!- trout has joined. 10:50:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:11:20 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:17:55 -!- variable has joined. 11:21:31 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:49:07 -!- trout has joined. 11:52:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:57:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 11:58:30 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:20:12 -!- variable has joined. 12:23:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:48:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:52:19 -!- trout has joined. 12:55:17 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:16:00 -!- aloril__ has joined. 13:18:26 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:20:57 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:23:10 -!- variable has joined. 13:23:32 -!- erkin has joined. 13:26:53 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:27:27 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 13:29:21 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:30:06 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:33:42 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:48:05 -!- SopaXT has joined. 13:49:03 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:53:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:54:52 -!- trout has joined. 13:56:14 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 13:58:05 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:27:31 -!- variable has joined. 14:30:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:32:17 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:57:49 -!- trout has joined. 15:01:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:29:47 -!- variable has joined. 15:32:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:01:03 -!- trout has joined. 16:03:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:13:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:20:55 -!- imode has joined. 16:25:51 int-e: imode: re efficiency of tarpits, Minsky machines are inherently slow if you execute them a step at a time but tend to be fairly easy to optimise 16:26:11 meanwhile, Turing machines are missing a capability that most implementations of Turing machines in lower-level languages have: the ability to insert and delete tape elements 16:26:40 so a Minsky machine is probably going to be more efficient than a Turing machine if you have a good optimiser 16:26:48 I was working on one a while back but never finisehd it 16:31:16 ais523: my question is, to do anything useful, you need to use godel numbering. 16:31:26 this means I need arbitrarily large numbers. 16:31:54 I think any language needs arbitrarily large data structures 16:32:03 numbers are a good choice for a tarpit because they're so flexible 16:32:18 right, but what does it buy me? 16:32:30 the ability to treat a number as an opaque object 16:32:47 you can't really do that with, say, a tape section in a Turing machine, you need to know things about its structure and the like 16:33:00 -!- variable has joined. 16:33:04 with numbers, you can just store them inside other numbers using exponents of primes or whatever 16:33:28 it's massively inefficient if you look at the size of the numbers, but a sufficiently smart compiler can reverse that and decompose them back into the actual data structures 16:33:29 what does that buy you practically, though? it also relies on arithmetic. 16:34:07 well, the simplest tarpits we know of either use numbers directly to store data, or else counts of things to store data (which is very comparable to using numbers) 16:34:11 I think I'd rather just work on strings of symbols. if I have to build something "sufficiently smart" to hack around the inefficiencies of the automata/model I'm working with... 16:34:33 apart from maybe cyclic tag, which arguably uses strings 16:34:33 ais523: So basically you'd be working with a stack machine then? 16:34:39 (multi-stack machine that is) 16:35:15 int-e: right, nearly always counter-machine tarpits, the TC proof starts by implementing a stack machine (or another counter machine that implements a stack machine, etc.) 16:35:47 imode: well, again looking at tarpits, they tend to have an (implicit or explicit) data pointer, which means that dealing with a string has similar performance properties to dealing with a number 16:35:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:35:54 as you have to move the pointer along it to accomplish anything 16:36:14 right but they admit to a mechanical representation. 16:36:24 one discrete location to the next. 16:36:45 a number's just a string of digits, though, right? 16:37:15 the only real difference between a string and a number is that the string enforces what base it's in, and a number doesn't inherently have opinions on that 16:40:23 -!- imode1 has joined. 16:40:24 -!- imode1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:40:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:46:00 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:04:32 -!- trout has joined. 17:07:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:17:14 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:18:56 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:21:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:27:33 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[File:Shorer Brainloller Truth Machine.gif]]": Duplicated file: this is the unused copy out of the two; both were uploaded by the same user at about the same time 17:29:42 -!- tromp has joined. 17:35:39 -!- variable has joined. 17:38:51 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:41:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:05:52 -!- tromp_ has joined. 18:07:17 -!- trout has joined. 18:07:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:10:17 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:27:07 -!- imode has joined. 18:27:16 ais523: sorry I dropped out earlier, lemme review the logs. 18:27:24 damn cell service. 18:37:42 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:37:50 ais523: right, but when I consider writing an algorithm for dealing with structures like adjacency matrices, 2D arrays, and other structures, I don't think "wow, that could be represented as a number", I think of the transformations required to work on parts of the structure. 18:38:15 -!- variable has joined. 18:38:16 I guess I don't see how transformations via arithmetic are somehow more suitable than just simple string substitutions. 18:39:03 especially when you need glorified bignums to do it.. 18:39:08 I guess I like the transformations to be built out of the smallest building blocks possible, because it makes them more general and places fewer assumptions about what they can be used for 18:39:25 smallest building blocks possible? what about things like thue? 18:39:34 what about things like fractran? 18:39:49 based on arbitrary arithmetic operations. 18:39:54 that's basically "Thue for numbers" and is more general/elegant (a Fractran program will normally be shorter than a Thue program for the same thing) 18:40:10 I'm not sure how you can say that unless you have an example. 18:40:27 fractran is multiset rewriting, not string rewriting. 18:40:45 afk. 18:41:34 Thue is very bad at moving data from one place to another because the use of a string inherently gives the data locations 18:42:08 that said, I don't have a concrete example of Fractran being golfier than Thue because few people have tried to golf either, it's more an educated guess 18:42:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:42:36 a Fractran self-interpreter is pretty short, though, and a Thue self-interpreter isn't even possible unless you limit the alphabet a bit, in which case the size is at least quadratic in the size of the alphabet 18:56:09 -!- tromp has joined. 19:00:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:03:08 -!- imode has joined. 19:03:26 ais523: I'm actually working on that... by using special prefixes. 19:04:33 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:05:44 -!- int-e has quit (Quit: leaving). 19:06:53 I don't think that giving data a location is a bad thing. in fact I think it as required in order to... do useful things. you're going to be doing the same thing with FRACTRAN. 19:07:02 only you're just wrapping it up in a sequence of arithmetic options. 19:07:23 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:08:00 well, it's about visibility 19:08:04 in Fractran, the data is just kind-of there 19:08:08 you don't have to move it to the right place first 19:08:24 but you're going to end up doing that anyway. I get that you strip ordering but.. 19:08:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 19:10:15 it's amazing how much more efficient a few global variables can make a program 19:10:24 -!- trout has joined. 19:11:33 if you really wanna convince me, translate this into FRACTRAN: https://ptpb.pw/qrUV/text 19:12:30 it's my variant of thue, and I have an interpreter for it. I'd be interested to see how you'd do it with a queue as well. 19:12:50 or this, which is a pseudo-drawing program: https://ptpb.pw/vO8Q/text 19:12:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:13:56 that first one is, what, unary RPN? 19:14:14 yup. 19:14:21 but it parses a command set. 19:14:24 I might have a go later, there are more important things I'm supposed to be doing first 19:14:29 also, it's not parsing 19:14:39 you're using Thue tokens directly as commands 19:14:48 pedantic, aren't we. 19:15:22 nah, it's relevant here, because it's important for getting the equivalence between the two programs right 19:15:43 that doesn't disqualify the fact that you have to.. do that. 19:16:16 imode: you'd have to do that in either direction! 19:16:36 define how the I/O works, that is 19:18:14 right, so "given a sequence of commands, simulate a stack machine with addition and subtraction." 19:18:29 yep 19:19:58 -!- int-e has joined. 19:20:04 I'd like to see how it ends up being... so-called better. 19:20:17 it's not hard to reason about these transformations. 19:20:30 but I cannot imagine what it's like in multiset rewriting systems like FRACTRAN. 19:21:10 come to think of it I'd imagine that program fits Thue very well because it uses exactly two stacks in a way that doesn't require an extra encoding layer 19:21:19 if you were trying to implement a TC language (i.e. program plus /two/ stacks) it'd be a lot messier 19:21:32 workin' on that. 19:22:16 planning on having a "label" stack. on a return, seek back to the return stack, fetch a label, and seek forward until you hit your label. 19:22:59 that's not even the only way to do it. I like the way you can use "signals" to carry information. 19:23:05 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 19:26:21 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:28:22 I'm also working on a preprocessing pass that'll add some additional features that makes the language a little easier to use. for example, the addition of "stateful strings" indicated by prefixes on every symbol. so certain rules only apply to symbols prefixed with a given "state". 19:29:37 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Zzo38 * uploaded "[[File:Brainloller Helloworld.png]]": Small version of Brainloller_Helloworld.gif 19:29:49 aaaaaaaaargh. 19:30:41 (colors) 19:31:08 rainbow. 19:32:00 [[Brainloller]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56701&oldid=56673 * Zzo38 * (+37) 19:33:00 imode: I usually hide in an attempt to keep what is left of my sanity. 19:33:15 entering this place implies a lack of it. 19:33:17 ;) 19:39:54 uh, I meant to write "I usually hide colors" there 19:40:09 But the omission worked rather nicely. 19:41:41 -!- variable has joined. 19:42:03 > let variable = variable in variable 19:42:07 *Exception: <> 19:45:11 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:55:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:56:17 int-e: hi 19:56:18 ais523: re numbers, yes, a very good example for that is Amycus, which is nominally defined to work on numbers, but actually works with binary trees, and an efficient implementation would have to use binary trees as the representation, becuase otherwise the numbers would grow too large 19:56:33 as in, not just exponentially large, but tetration large 19:58:20 Numbers are neat 19:59:00 and yes, the Turing-completeness proof of Consumer Society and the proof that it can also efficiently simulate a register machine (up to polylog slowdown) both use a two-stack machine 19:59:52 the two-stack machine can directly simulate a one-tape Turing machine, and you use the two stacks to store arbitrarily large numbers which you use as addresses to simulate a register tree manipulation machine 20:00:35 you're actually simulating a RAM machine with addresses, but I don't like RAM machines because there's too many different ways to define them and no one nice canonical one 20:01:28 Thue is pretty similar to a Turing machine with insertion and deletion 20:01:31 as is a two-stack machine 20:02:09 interestingly, there are at least two proofs though that I can use to simulate a two-stack machine, and both are interesting because either of them don't use the full power of Consumer Society, but it's two different things that they don't use 20:02:46 Consumer Society doesn't seem to be on Esolang 20:02:54 but Consumer Society is not a tarpit, it's not easy to simulate 20:03:04 ais523: yes, it's a future language that I'll write up at some point 20:03:14 and I'm keeping its actual mechanics a secret until that 20:03:54 is it covered under ITAR? 20:04:08 what's an ITAR? 20:05:03 international traffic in arms regulations. 20:05:23 that joke about national secrets fell flat. 20:06:00 is that the thing why the license of some commercial software says that you can't sell them to Cuba or North Korea? 20:06:09 kinda yeah. 20:06:39 What is Consumer Society? 20:06:46 Not an esolang I can find on the wiki 20:06:56 Lymia: a future esolang that I will document eventually 20:07:07 I've had it in my head for like a year 20:07:32 I consider it very elegant, but YMMV 20:08:25 it's not like the tarpit languages of ais523 which try to be easy to simulate and hard to program, but it's like ais523's languages in that it has only very few operations because the programmer can just simulate everything else. 20:08:53 mine vary in how hard they are to program in 20:09:02 being hard to program in isn't an end goal, it's just a side effect 20:09:38 I have never actually designed an esolang for the sake of being an esolang 20:09:39 hmm 20:10:16 what do you mean as "the sake of being an esolang"? 20:10:23 ais523: yes, exactly 20:10:50 Lymia: me neither. this just popped out as I examined non-eso languages and what operations they can do and noticed that a certain few operations are enough to do everything 20:11:10 "increment target" and "dereference" :-P 20:11:50 or "increment counter" and "try to decrement counter if nonzero, conditional goto depending on whether it was zero" 20:11:58 S, K, and I? 20:12:09 ais523, I did a dumb thing for a Minecraft server plugin back in the day 20:12:14 it was an esolang because it had to fit on Minecraft signs 20:12:22 which are the two operations that Minsky or StackFlow have 20:12:53 If I was to do it again, I'd just implement Golfscript. :P 20:13:05 -!- trout has joined. 20:13:10 wob_jonas: the typical counter machine has four operations (increment, decrement, zero test, goto), which can be minimized by grouping them in various ways 20:13:21 Lymia: I doubt it, GolfScript is an "environment-execution-tied" language 20:13:38 i.e. its semantics inherently rely on the language it's implemented in (IIRC Ruby?) 20:13:48 and implementing it in anything else would require a Ruby interpreter 20:14:05 I personally consider these languages very inelegant but it's common among golfing languages 20:14:10 (and I have one of my own, A Pear Tree, which is tied to Perl) 20:14:22 (but it doesn't try to hide it, like, e.g. GolfScript does) 20:14:37 . o O (JVM/CLR esolang that retains the esolang flavor) 20:15:02 Oh wait, that's just Clojure 20:15:16 ais523: yeah, I sort of prefer to assume the kind of counter machine that has no linear order of statements, but just states and one or two next state pointers in each state 20:15:19 Lymia: just try to tarpit the JVM 20:15:33 and that's how I imagine the heap-allocating tree machine too 20:15:35 it's close to an esolang in its own right, but it more resembles those BF derivatives that add far too many commands than anything else 20:15:45 Turing machines are usually defined that way too 20:15:55 JVM/CLR assembly themselves are... surprisingly reasonable. 20:16:09 the odd thing is that you can't use its stack for TCness as you need to statically bound how high it is at every point in the program 20:16:16 There's 0 magic, unlike our friend SPIR-V 20:16:18 please don't call JVM bytecode reasonable :-( 20:16:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 20:16:29 I have worked with it for my day job, it's one of the more unreasonable ASMs I've seen 20:16:49 why use a stack for most things, but registers for local variables and arguments, for example? (this is the exact opposite of how most asms do it) 20:17:37 ais523: hehe. whereas lua uses a stack for the local variables and function arguments, just like typical C to real processor compilers do 20:17:55 why require that a pointer uses one stack slot and a 64-bit integer uses two? on any non-32-bit system, that's just going to require special cases to implement that behaviour specifically 20:18:17 (Because it was defined before 64-bit was a thing) 20:18:31 I think JVM actually still has 32-bit pointers on 64-bit too? Via some deep magic 20:19:32 ais523, what I should say is 20:19:37 It's not unreasonable or tarpitty to use. 20:19:49 not tarpitty, sure 20:19:53 I consider it to be unreasonable though 20:21:08 I suspect it's an encoding size concession, actually 20:21:25 The way Java/C# expressions work pretty easily translate into RPN, basically. 20:22:10 Since it's stack-based, there's no basically redundant location operands in every opcode. 20:22:23 In effect, it has local variables and expressions in RPN. 20:22:45 the way modern Java toolchain work is to basically translate the Java into JVM as literally as they can 20:22:55 and then decompile it and recompile it into something that's remotely optimised within the runtime 20:23:05 can you suggest interesting runs of games that aren't too well-known from either SGDQ 2018 or ESA Germany 2017? I don't have time to watch everything, but I'd like to see cool runs of games I don't yet know. 20:23:20 I have a huge suspicion that the reason why Java JITs ended up becoming so good is that the AOT compilation is so bad 20:23:38 Don't bother with the weell-known games like Super Metroid or Super Mario 64 that is, I can already guess which of those I can watch. 20:23:40 wob_jonas: I personally like Axiom Verge, the SGDQ run of it is perfectly adequate 20:24:11 Axiom Verge, ok, will look at that 20:24:22 in general though you'll prefer the run more if you like the game / its genre 20:24:22 ais523, I wish Scala didn't take after javac's model of compilation 20:24:23 because 20:24:34 I'm not sure the JVM can really optimize some of the stuff it outputs. 20:24:48 Lymia: I've lost track of just how bad javac's optimisation is 20:24:55 it is comparable to gcc -O0, probably a bit worse 20:24:55 ais523: sure. I don't like fast-paced 3D games for example. 20:25:05 real 3D that is, where the player moves in 3D 20:25:13 but you're OK if it's slower? 20:25:29 ais523: yes, in particular I like GTA Vice City runs because they're slower paced 20:25:58 There are the Pokemon RBY runs. 20:26:01 Which are....... 20:26:03 well 20:26:19 Lymia: I've already seen the two game one controller Pokemon blue and yellow 20:27:43 I remember there being a glitched 151 pokemon race? 20:28:00 Lymia: wasn't that last year? or winter? 20:28:07 idk 20:28:16 oh 20:28:17 no wait, that was the blindfolded glitched race 20:28:24 It wasn't this year, no 20:28:27 that one is amazing 20:28:41 ais523, a JVM/CLR tarpit would be interesting. 20:28:41 they did all the menu manipulation glitches blindfolded 20:28:55 It'd need to be still a tarpit while capable of... 20:29:10 At minimum: Defining classes with supertypes, implementing interfaces, overriding methods, doing basic OO operators 20:29:14 I'm trying to figure out what properties of JVM bytecode even give it its TCness 20:29:31 this year was blue and yellow glitchless with the same controller 20:29:46 I don't think it's possible to create two stacks without using objects to create linked lists, assuming integers have capped sizes 20:29:54 (otherwise you can realloc arrays to get your storage) 20:30:20 I believe the JVM is only TC with the use of objects 20:30:27 ais523: isn't it the built-in classes like arrays that give it TC-ness the easiest way, just like in smalltalk on ruby? 20:30:40 arrays aren't classes 20:30:52 this sentence has caused several /months/ of additional work for one of my coworkers 20:31:03 arrays aren't a class? 20:31:07 no 20:31:08 What do you work on, such that this is an issue for you? 20:31:09 I don't actually know JVM 20:31:10 or, well 20:31:12 array classes exist 20:31:18 but arrays themselves don't act like objects of a standard class 20:31:45 Lymia: well, part of my job is low-level JVM hacking 20:32:21 oh man, you don't want to know the ugly details I found out about VBA (Visual Basic Automation) recently. it's a very old language, but still used, and it's very ugly. 20:32:28 As in, like, what does your company do that necessitates that? 20:32:48 wob_jonas: VBA is something like the third programming language I learned 20:32:52 and it was my main language for years 20:32:52 they have a dictionary type in its standard library, but no easy way to sort a fucking array. the dictionary doesn't help because it's not a sorted one, it's an unordered one. 20:32:56 at the time I didn't know better 20:33:11 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 20:33:20 ais523: I'm luckier, I learned word basic, the original macro language from words 2 and word 6. 20:33:29 Lymia: I'm a research programmer, my job's basically to implement ideas for new programming languages / techniques that other researchers come up with 20:33:36 .. ah. 20:33:45 And you've targeted the JVM before? 20:33:48 That makes sense. 20:33:56 it's kind-of mindblowing that I effectively ended up with a job in esoprogramming 20:34:06 -!- xa0 has joined. 20:34:08 My first real programming language was Java. 20:34:20 I don't use Java anymore unless I need to 20:34:30 in this case I'm working with existing Java code and attempting to transform it in ways that preserve its semantics 20:35:18 ais523: and I ended up with a job (that I think of as temporary) where I program VBA. it's not like I wanted to program VBA, but that's the programming interface a certain commercal program offers, so I have to use it at least in part. 20:35:25 Ooooh 20:35:43 there are a lot of people working on this, though; I'm mostly working on the runtime 20:35:44 Idea for a JVM tarpit: The only thing the language can do are field accesses, and method calls. 20:35:50 I partly use it to export data to a file and then parse that file with a saner programming language, but this still involves a lot of digging around in VBA and its interface 20:36:04 Lymia: isn't that javascript? 20:36:17 Javascript still has math operators :P 20:36:18 And such 20:36:32 "math operations" 20:36:53 I'm a mathematician and I don't think javascript addition and subtraction are math operations 20:37:22 you know, like the php == operator, but even more weird 20:38:06 So. 20:38:24 []+=` 20:38:28 Can you create a useful Java program with only if(), field accesses, and method calls? (Not even literals) 20:38:30 but yeah, it also has builtin while loops and such 20:38:36 That could be reduced into an esolang, I think 20:38:38 Lymia: you don't need if 20:38:51 Church booleans are the way to go here 20:38:59 oh right 20:39:18 If this language can define objects 20:39:30 ais523: so just embed lambda calculus in it, creating functions from strings with the same trick that jsfuck does? 20:39:40 It can make implicit branches via virtual methods. 20:39:44 So, no need for if. 20:39:50 public class ChurchTrue implements ChurchBoolean { @Override public if_(Supplier ifFalse, Supplier ifTrue) { return ifTrue.get(); }} 20:40:05 oh wait, you mean java 20:40:08 not javascript 20:40:10 sorry 20:40:16 wob_jonas: you cannot use the same trick as JSFuck in Java 20:40:24 yeah 20:40:26 although []+=` is the minimum known TC character subset of JavaScript 20:40:31 sorry, I just thought of javascript 20:40:50 Lymia: do you mean without method definitions? 20:40:51 this mostly relies on how hideously overloaded + is 20:40:56 as in, you only call built-in methods? 20:40:58 eventually we start using it to call functions 20:41:09 wob_jonas: where would you put the calls? 20:41:11 hrm 20:41:21 ais523: a single main method, I'd say 20:41:33 I don't think this is doable without some access to method definitions. 20:41:38 But, maybe. 20:41:48 in Java you can't even write any code without defining a method 20:42:00 but you'd use the built-in library and call standard methods from it 20:42:00 Also, we need a sufficiently esoteric syntax. :B 20:42:18 You need some way to get access to "machine" bools/ints 20:42:23 To call into the stdlib and do anything useful. 20:42:46 I think "Church Java" might be more interesting 20:42:55 but it's basically just typed lambda calculus with a ridiculously verbose syntax :-D 20:43:29 That sounds Java-like 20:43:40 well, yes 20:43:41 -!- variable has joined. 20:43:43 "ridiculously verbose" is sure an description of that language 20:45:03 modern Java isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's still quite bad 20:45:32 instead of defining the ChurchTrue class you could just write «(f,t)->t.get()» whenever you wanted to use it 20:45:37 as long as the type was clear from context 20:45:43 I do kinda want this to be "OOP taken ridiculously far" in how it feels. 20:45:52 But reducing it to actually FP concepts implemented using OOP functions is... 20:45:54 not that 20:46:17 isn't smalltalk already OOP taken ridiculously far? 20:46:25 Too much OOP, and you have 100 classes that each do nothing. This is a language where classes can't do anything but call other stuff. 20:47:01 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:47:27 A perverse enough language that BigInteger.ONE may be your best way of actually getting your hands on the ability to do math. 20:48:18 you could probably wrangle up something out of the streams API 20:50:13 Syntatically, a method body can just be a list of method/function/etc names. 20:50:49 java.math.BigInteger.ONE; java.math.BigInteger.ONE; java.math.BigInteger.add(java.math.BigInteger); 20:51:51 this language seems to have a severe lack of being able to store things long-term, due to the lack of a dup 20:52:07 there's no way to produce more than one of a value 20:52:25 which means that you can't, say, use an array to store things because once you read one of the elements, all the others will be lost 20:52:27 Right, since there's also no multiple return. 20:54:49 The simplest escape clause is the ability to reference method arguments multiple times, right? 20:55:52 It acts as a dup without there being an obviously "doesn't belong here" operation 20:56:38 Lymia: yes, but that's not enough 20:57:03 What would be missing? 20:57:57 I was thinking of a language that only has function definitions, where functions call other functions or conditionals, but no currying or function pointers, and it's not TC in itself, you need some way to store data, such as arrays or heap-allocated pairs or something 20:58:07 you'd only have a call stack, which isn't TC in itself 20:58:37 you can compile any program to a single-stack machine with limited depth 20:58:40 um 20:58:48 limited depth of how deep you can reach the stack that is 20:58:59 you know, just the ordinary one-stack machines 20:59:36 Isn't this enough to implement some subset of lambda calculus? (Assuming there's access to defining/implementing JVM interfaces) 20:59:45 Or, well. 20:59:48 All of it, basically 20:59:55 Lymia: no, because there are no function pointers or closures 21:00:15 of partially bound functions 21:00:19 wob_jonas: apart from the "separate way to store data" you're thinking of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Splinter 21:00:29 Objects in Java can have virtual methods, and ctors effectively create closures. 21:00:36 (Assuming you can treat constructors as static methods) 21:02:46 Lymia: that might be enough 21:03:15 Lymia: constructors are instance methods in the JVM, IIRC 21:03:26 you construct an uninitialised object first then call the ctor on it 21:03:40 The language implementation can paper over this minor quibble :P 21:05:37 ais523: if you learned VBA, can you tell if I'm missing something stupid, or it really doesn't have any easy way to sort an array? 21:06:04 I learned it when I was much younger and less understanding of programming style 21:06:11 I've seen actual sort implementations online on stack overflow or something 21:06:14 I don't think I even /used/ arrays 21:06:28 I mostly used it with Excel and placed values into the cells to do an array-like storage 21:06:28 which seems to suggest that there is no built in 21:06:42 I see 21:14:11 https://pastebin.com/bLLqghKq 21:14:18 A quick sketch of how this language could look 21:15:29 -!- trout has joined. 21:16:15 They are soon adding big integer arithmetic into JavaScript though, I think it is a good idea because then 64-bit integer arithmetic is possible (it is also helpful when you need unbounded integers, but they can also be used as 64-bit integers when that is what you need). 21:18:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:19:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:32:05 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 21:38:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:45:53 -!- variable has joined. 21:49:47 What are some cool implications of the continuum hypothesis (or its negation)? 21:49:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:51:41 I don't know 21:57:01 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 21:58:14 -!- variable has joined. 21:58:33 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit). 21:59:19 -!- variable has joined. 21:59:20 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit). 21:59:51 -!- variable has joined. 22:00:06 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit). 22:04:10 -!- tromp has joined. 22:08:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:09:08 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:26:19 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 22:28:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:37:20 -!- tromp has joined. 22:41:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:47:37 Surely this exists somewhere as an esolang. 22:48:04 A language with no explicitly defined text representation, and a well-defined IPA pronouncation 23:13:07 -!- imode has joined. 23:19:50 -!- moei has joined. 23:30:36 -!- tromp has joined. 23:35:49 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 2018-07-15: 00:11:45 Lymia: I can't think of a language like that; the closest I can get is /ˈæmbiːɛf/'s /name/ (but the language itself is represented in text form) 00:12:26 Is there a speech recognization module sufficient for the interpreter? :D 00:15:26 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 00:24:19 -!- tromp has joined. 00:28:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:53:10 hmm, interesting, a cross conlang/esolang 01:14:44 <\oren\> Lymia: well, the only way to specify such a language would be if the spec was an audio recording and not in text form 01:15:11 <\oren\> otherwise one could use the text representation used in the spec 01:15:17 \oren\, I mean 01:15:21 You could write IPA down on paper. 01:15:22 :P 01:17:28 -!- tromp has joined. 01:21:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:40:47 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 02:33:18 -!- moei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:33:53 -!- moei has joined. 03:04:26 -!- tromp has joined. 03:08:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:26:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:28:28 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:01:14 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 04:01:58 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 04:50:57 -!- tromp has joined. 04:56:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:34:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 07:04:26 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:18:02 -!- tromp has joined. 07:22:39 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 07:23:43 recent article on the Wizards website "https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/card-preview/omniscience-2018-06-19" previewing Omniscience in the M2019 core set explicitly mentions "to the Legacy deck that puts Omniscience into play with Show and Tell" 07:34:44 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:14:36 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 08:14:52 -!- Fogity has joined. 08:18:46 [[Parenthesisfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56702 * A * (+241) Created page with "==Syntax(and proof to be Turing-complete)== (while ...) Same as Brainfuck [] (add p1 p2) equivalent to Brainfuck symbols "<>+-". The 1st parameter is the adding times(can be..." 08:19:23 [[Parenthesisfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56703&oldid=56702 * A * (+80) 08:35:17 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:28:29 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:28:57 wow. so after Jayemdae Tome and Scepter of Imsight, wizards found that they're still too expensive for that effect and print Arcane Encyclopedia? 09:29:33 and they even spell it that instead of Encyclopædia? how is that arcane then? 09:31:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:32:26 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 09:38:04 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:38:24 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:38:28 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 09:44:49 zzo38: reminder that you should download http://media.wizards.com/2018/downloads/MagicCompRules%2020180713.txt 09:53:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:01:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:34:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 10:39:04 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:39:38 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:51:16 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:55:27 -!- xa0 has joined. 10:55:30 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 10:56:42 -!- xa0 has joined. 11:13:20 `` (echo a | gzip; echo abcdefghijklmnopq) | gzip -d 11:13:21 ​ \ gzip: stdin: decompression OK, trailing garbage ignored \ a 11:13:28 `` (echo a | xz; echo abcdefghijklmnopq) | xz -d 11:13:29 xz: (stdin): Compressed data is corrupt \ a 11:13:51 `` (echo a | xz; echo b | xz) | xz -d 11:13:51 a \ b 11:13:53 hmm 11:15:05 `` (echo a | gzip; echo b | gzip) | gzip -d # I didn't know that this is allowed 11:15:06 a \ b 11:36:00 -!- int-e has quit (Quit: leaving). 11:36:12 -!- int-e has joined. 11:46:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 12:31:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:32:02 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:32:36 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:33:37 For each of handkerchiefs, shirts, T-shirts, when I wash them, I always put them in the cupboars on the right or bottom of stacks of each, and try to choose one from the left or top when I need one, to try to ensure that I wear them off at an equal amount. But this doesn't work well, because they tend to get clustered to two or three groups of colo 12:33:37 rs, since that's how I put them in the washing machine. 12:33:50 I don't have the same problem with plates, which I also rotate in such a way. 12:37:59 int-e: I think gzip allows that for the sake of people who archive files with tar|gzip to actual tapes. 12:40:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:40:31 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:42:56 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 13:40:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 13:53:51 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 13:57:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:02:05 -!- imode has joined. 14:14:36 -!- SopaXT has joined. 14:16:35 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:21:08 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:21:33 -!- SopaXT has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:24:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:12:11 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:41:08 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:42:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 16:34:41 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:41:42 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:43:53 -!- aloril__ has joined. 17:10:57 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:18:05 -!- grumble1 has joined. 17:18:13 -!- grumble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:18:21 -!- grumble1 has changed nick to grumbe. 17:18:22 -!- grumbe has changed nick to grumble. 17:23:01 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:23:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:41:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:55:43 -!- tromp has joined. 18:00:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:49:46 -!- tromp has joined. 18:51:31 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:46 -!- tromp has joined. 19:02:43 wob_jonas: OK I downloaded that file thank you 19:08:29 `? cupboar 19:08:30 cupboar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:08:42 `" 19:08:43 267) elliott: well what i would do if i were omniscient and omnipotent would be to create an immortal woman with perfect tits and bang her for the rest of eternity \ 290) boston cream pie? sounds related to a cleveland steamer 19:31:05 -!- erkin has joined. 19:32:11 -!- imode has joined. 19:36:54 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 19:39:17 -!- Lymia has joined. 19:47:26 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:35:42 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 20:38:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:06:43 -!- imode1 has joined. 21:07:42 I am making my own (sort off) esolang, and just got the interpreter to run it's first program (hello world, sort off). \o/ 21:09:50 The language is a functional emoji-based language. 21:09:51 Program: 💬🔤👋🗺🔤 21:09:52 Output: 👋🗺 21:10:33 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:12:41 -!- imode1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 21:13:04 -!- imode has joined. 21:15:32 -!- imode has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:21:44 -!- imode has joined. 21:25:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:16 I also got a working "yes" program: 🆕👍💬🔤👍🔤👍🛑👍 21:51:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:13:49 -!- tromp has joined. 22:18:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:27:29 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 22:54:12 -!- tromp has joined. 22:58:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:00:16 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:08:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:13:55 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:31:06 -!- MDude has joined. 23:49:57 -!- tromp has joined. 23:54:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 2018-07-16: 01:10:31 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elyatai * New user account 01:14:56 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56704&oldid=56660 * Elyatai * (+184) 01:27:19 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:28:44 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:36:30 -!- tromp has joined. 01:40:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:30:34 -!- tromp has joined. 02:34:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:15:28 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:18:14 -!- xa0 has joined. 04:02:03 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:16:52 -!- tromp has joined. 04:21:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:23:53 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 05:34:09 -!- imode has joined. 05:54:04 -!- tromp has joined. 06:04:40 Now SQLite has the function like the bit interleave operator of INTERCAL. (It is not part of the core library, but it is included in the source tree.) 06:05:02 Did you know that? 06:12:49 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:18:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:23:54 -!- imode has joined. 06:24:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:34:27 -!- moei has joined. 06:40:31 [[Hanabi]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56705 * Elyatai * (+5293) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Hanabi |author=[[User:Elyatai]] |paradigms=imperative |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |files=..." 06:47:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 06:49:28 [[Hanabi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56706&oldid=56705 * Elyatai * (+52) 06:56:50 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:01:37 -!- tromp has joined. 07:04:48 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 07:05:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:15:33 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:49:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:56:25 [[Hanabi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56707&oldid=56706 * Elyatai * (+0) 07:57:51 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:07:00 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:23:27 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:24:00 -!- Deewiant has joined. 08:48:10 -!- tromp has joined. 08:53:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:12:04 Google's suddenly decided I look very much like a robot 09:21:25 me too 09:21:27 wtf? 09:21:38 Taneb: you do look a bit like a robot 09:22:19 That is true 09:22:37 Maybe it's something to do with Cambridge 09:50:08 [[Talk:Definer]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56708 * A * (+115) Created page with "==How about loops?== Why not add some loops? Or, add recursion. That could make it a lot more useful. --[[User:A]]" 09:50:44 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56709&oldid=56708 * A * (-1) /* How about loops? */ 09:53:53 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56710&oldid=56709 * A * (+18) /* How about loops? */ 10:06:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:19:10 -!- tromp has joined. 10:23:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:34:35 [[PISW]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56711 * A * (+853) Created page with "PISW(Paradigm Is String-Rewriting) is an extremely simplified esolang by [[User:A]]. ==Syntax== It has 2 parts: Fun Str ===The Box Fun=== This is the function defenition. Li..." 10:37:15 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56712&oldid=56710 * A * (+15) /* How about loops? */ 11:11:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:13:16 -!- tromp has joined. 11:16:07 [[Talk:Random]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56713&oldid=17764 * A * (+155) /* Turing completeness */ 11:17:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:43:18 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:59:35 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:59:54 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:06:31 -!- tromp has joined. 12:11:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:41:23 I wonder how quickly I can write a functional language interpreter 12:44:48 12km/h 12:45:02 Any quicker and you'll get too distracted 12:46:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:46:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 12:46:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:48:20 using yoctoparsec for comedy value 12:55:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:10:13 depends on how much of a toy language or real language you interpret, and how efficiently you want to interpret it 13:11:23 I have this dump interpreter that I think I wrote in like two days, but it's really a toy language that you wouldn't want to use in practice: https://code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Scripts/Scheme 13:11:46 in theory it's turing-complete, but it's certainly not a practical language 13:12:08 I have two other older interpreters linked from the wiki that interpret a toy language, I think one of them isn't even turing-complete 13:16:35 wob_jonas, the idea is to compile a simply typed lambda calculus with letrec to assembly or something 13:16:54 just an exercise 13:17:01 mniip: didn't you want an interpreter, rather than a compiler? 13:17:12 a compiler 13:17:34 that's harder 13:17:48 yes 13:19:28 -!- tromp has joined. 13:21:37 my current idea is to produce machine code in named blocks with relocations linking the blocks together, and let binutils' as handle it 13:22:16 yet to come up with a calling/entering convention 13:25:22 is this lazy or strict evaluation of the lambda calculus? 13:25:48 CBN 13:27:02 are the representation of all the values you handle are the same because you only have lambda functions, or do you want to add integers or algebraic types or something that requires a different representation? 13:27:18 and how would you handle allocation and garbage-collection of the lambda terms? 13:27:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:27:38 mniip: yoctoparsec seems a neat toy parser 13:27:48 a walkable heap and periodic invocations to C/assembly RTS code 13:28:47 I know... far less than I'd like about writing compilers 13:29:07 I feel like I know how all the pieces work - it's just that I've never put the puzzle together 13:29:27 You should do it! 13:29:36 well I have about 4 days 13:29:39 I definitely don't know how all the pieces work: specifically I don't know much about the ELF format and how it's used in modern programs 13:30:17 wob_jonas, I know enough about ELF to create a "modern" program but I'm willing to let binutils do the job 13:30:18 [[String-rewriting paradigm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56714 * A * (+307) Created page with "{{Distinguish/Confusion|Category:String-rewriting paradigm}} ==Syntax== It only has 2 extremely simple commands. They are: > This moves the next byte to the end of the progra..." 13:30:42 mniip: sure, but even then 13:30:48 (I've written a toy dynamic linker before) 13:31:21 what cpu is this compiling for, and do you know enough about its instruction set and rules? 13:31:31 x86_64 13:31:33 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:31:33 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:31:42 good 13:31:49 I actually know a lot about x86_64 13:31:56 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:32:01 Taneb, I realized Parser Maybe is absolutely useless 13:32:09 -!- tromp has joined. 13:32:14 as you internally have Maybe (Either a (Parser ...)) 13:32:25 The other part I really don't understand is how to do register allocation in any way that isn't very dump 13:32:28 you have to decide whether your parse ended without any lookahead 13:32:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:32:31 and function inlining too 13:32:37 not planning to do any of those :p 13:33:16 perhaps some time in the future I'll try to learn all this and write a compiler, although for a very different language that you're imagining 13:33:32 but it definitely seems like a very large project that takes a lot of time 13:38:09 [[String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56715&oldid=56714 * A * (-9) 13:40:06 [[String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56716&oldid=56715 * A * (+54) /* Syntax */ 13:45:15 I think I understand parsec's backtracking decision now... 13:49:59 [[Category:String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56717&oldid=7907 * A * (+92) Trying to extend the stub description. 13:52:30 I consider the parser the easiest part, because I understand some of the theory of how they work, and because I get to define the syntax so I define it such that it's easier to parse than real languages. 13:57:54 [[StubScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56718 * A * (+328) Created page with "{{Stub}} StubScript is an extremely simplified esolang that it made this article a stub. ==Syntax== It has only 1 instruction: > Move the first byte to the end of program. An..." 14:08:07 -!- moei has joined. 14:09:18 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:12:28 [[StubScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56719&oldid=56718 * A * (+62) 14:15:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:15:54 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:16:15 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:16:17 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:16:44 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:17:13 [[Infinite Loop]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56720 * A * (+398) Created page with "An infinite loop is a program that loops infinitely, never stopping. For example, the C program below: main(){main();} is an infinite loop. (Obviously, I golfed it) ==Pseudoc..." 14:19:06 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56721&oldid=56691 * A * (+22) /* Jumping */ 14:24:30 [[Looping Counter]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56722 * A * (+496) Created page with "A looping counter is a counter using loops. It counts up to infinity or a specific number(or possibly down to a specific number). ==Example in Slashes(///)== [[User:A]] found..." 14:25:11 [[Looping Counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56723&oldid=56722 * A * (+44) /* Example in Slashes(///) */ 14:26:29 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:26:51 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:32:47 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Quit: Leaving). 14:33:38 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:35:34 Cardiacsfan: *cough* 14:35:45 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Client Quit). 14:35:46 [[Disan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56724 * A * (+65) Created page with "==Syntax== It has only1 command, D, to implement the Disan Count." 14:36:19 hm maybe that was a spammer. 14:36:27 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:37:08 Cardiacsfan: you should fix your connection 14:37:18 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:37:23 [[Talk:Disan Count]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56725&oldid=53631 * A * (+111) 14:37:45 * oerjan realizes he doesn't know how one actually does that. 14:37:47 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:37:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 14:38:23 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:38:52 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:38:53 oerjan, a nickname ban with $##fix_your_connection at the end usually suffices 14:39:35 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -bCn #esoteric!*@*. 14:39:35 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +n. 14:39:35 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:39:41 wat 14:39:54 -!- hakatashi has joined. 14:40:01 GOD I HATE IT WHEN I GET /MODE'S ARGUMENT ORDER WRONG 14:40:39 mniip: i meant how one actually fixes a connection hth 14:41:13 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:41:30 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +bC #esoteric!*@*. 14:41:37 -!- Cardiacsfan has joined. 14:42:34 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b *!~Cardiacsf@ppp118-210-141-70.bras1.adl6.internode.on.net. 14:42:57 i hope i didn't mess up anything. 14:43:50 if i forget that the channel should come first, it ends up interpreting every character in the banned address as a mode, i think. 14:44:19 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 14:44:34 you didn't include the $ redirect 14:45:08 sure i did. 14:45:53 mode b 14:45:55 /mode #esoteric -b ~Cardiacsf@ppp118-210-141-70.bras1.adl6.internode.on.net$##fix_your_connection 14:46:00 that's what i did. 14:46:04 oh duh that was a -b 14:46:08 should be +b 14:46:16 WORST INTERFACE EVER 14:46:18 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 14:46:32 + is for adding, b is for ban 14:46:39 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!~Cardiacsf@ppp118-210-141-70.bras1.adl6.internode.on.net$##fix_your_connection. 14:46:44 also there's still #esoteric!*@* 14:46:51 which you again added instead of removing! 14:46:54 darn 14:47:08 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b #esoteric!*@*. 14:48:20 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 14:48:39 the problem is that bans are so rare that i forget the syntax between each time :( 14:49:16 and also that irssi or possibly the server does its darnest to interpret a /mode command as something sensible when it isn't. 14:49:40 *darndest 14:50:08 oerjan: it's the server 14:50:52 hmph 14:52:12 irssi is interfering too 14:52:25 it interprets /mode foo #chan as /mode #chan foo #chan 14:52:39 if you sent MODE foo #chan the server would've told you no 14:52:43 wob_jonas: hi! i have the same rotation policy as you as my things but because i've got such a monotonous clothing style that only my handkerchiefs get separated into two color groups (white and not) 14:52:49 *on my things 14:53:47 oerjan: wait, you use actual handkerchiefs? it seemed like everyone but me stopped using them by now. even my brother did. that's part of the reason why I have so many. 14:54:06 [[Collatz function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56726&oldid=56656 * A * (+26) Obviously a program form. 14:54:11 actually it's just for fix_your_connection bans, which i need to use /mode for. otherwise i use the more sensible /ban or /kickban commands. 14:54:35 not that others are common either. 14:55:44 depending on your client you might able to use /ban for it 14:55:48 wob_jonas: when i'm at home i use paper towels but when i carry a handkerchief to use when i don't have something else around. 14:55:56 *-when 14:56:03 seeriously, my grammer 14:56:38 You're spelling (sic) 14:56:48 -!- Cardiacsfan has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:57:16 oerjan: is your clothing style more monotonous than that of Hari Seldon? 14:57:23 Taneb: that was in10tional 14:57:28 wob_jonas: quite possibly. 14:57:32 wow 14:57:47 (i don't actually know how monotonous that is) 14:58:13 one of the later books describe it, I think 14:58:24 he has several copies of the same shirt and suit I think 14:58:36 I don't recall which book that was 14:58:47 well, it can only be two of them, or maybe three 14:59:20 wob_jonas: I've not read the prequels and it doesn't sound familiar to me so I think you can narrow it down to two 14:59:37 Prelude to Foundation, Forward the Foundation, or Foundation’s Fear, but the latter is unlikely 15:00:05 Ah, I thought you thought it may have been the first chapter of Foundation 15:00:06 i have several copies too 15:00:40 I should try to grab a copy of the prequels 15:00:55 IIRC it is just a short note where either Dors or Hari himself mentions that Dors was surprised when he first saw Hari's wardrobe which contained just several copies of the exact same clothes 15:01:08 s/he first/she first/ 15:02:13 oh hm, my actual towels aren't all identical, but they're similar enough to each other that i don't separate them in laundry. 15:02:59 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:03:55 except for one, which i don't use, precisely because i would have to separate laundry for just that one. and i once had a red one that i threw away after discovering it _really_ shouldn't be washed together with the rest. 15:05:31 I actually have much more trouble with clothes that leave lint on all other clothes washed together than anything connected to dyes and color. I don't like clothes that emit lint. It's very hard to clean other clothes if I accidentally wash them together, so they're usually not worth the bother. 15:06:35 But I still separate shirts to at least white versus non-white, althoguh this is probably misguided, I should separate them to bright-colored and dark-colored, with bright-colored ones washed with whitening washing liquid. 15:06:42 So sometimes I do that. 15:07:00 And sometimes I separate them to three color groups if I have a lot of them dirty. 15:07:33 Which is exactly what happened now, so now I have three color groups of T-shirts separated in my wardrobe and I should mix them up or something. 15:11:44 mhm 15:13:41 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:17:24 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:19:52 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:19:53 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56727&oldid=56712 * A * (+37) /* How about loops? */ 15:21:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:27:14 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:45:51 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:52:55 `? cupboar 15:52:57 cupboar? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:53:15 `learn A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards. 15:53:17 Learned 'cupboar': A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards. 15:54:02 `learn A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards. Do not aggravate them, especially if you have fine china. 15:54:05 Relearned 'cupboar': A cupboar is a very small boar. They may be found in cupboards. Do not aggravate them, especially if you have fine china. 15:59:12 -!- imode has joined. 16:01:20 `? cupboard 16:01:21 cupboard? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 16:01:39 `learn cupboard is a daemon for creating and managing cupboars. 16:01:41 Learned 'cupboard': cupboard is a daemon for creating and managing cupboars. 16:02:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:02:57 [[Talk:Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56728&oldid=56727 * Ais523 * (+234) /* How about loops? */ it already has them 16:03:09 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Infinite Loop]] to [[Infinite loop]]: Capitalization 16:03:17 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:04:41 [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Looping Counter]] to [[Looping counter]]: Capitalization 16:07:04 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56733&oldid=56731 * Oerjan * (-7) /// is the name, "slashes" is wimpmode. Also I'm pretty sure *I* found that. 16:08:06 [[Category:String-rewriting paradigm]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56734&oldid=56717 * Oerjan * (-92) Undo revision 56717 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) (This is simply not true for all of these.) 16:14:26 [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56735&oldid=56729 * Ais523 * (+1814) /* Implementability */ not all languages with control flow can do this, surprisingly 16:18:04 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56736&oldid=56733 * Ais523 * (+138) /* Examples */ although that isn't a copyvio (it's a public domain source), let's link by reference rather than copying, as the example makes more sense with context; also expand the section to another language and add some explanation 16:19:07 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Looping Counter]]": rm manual caps redirect; the search box does this automatically, and it's not a likely capitalisation for a link 16:19:39 [[StubScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56737&oldid=56719 * Ais523 * (+0) caps 16:19:50 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Infinite Loop]]": rm manual caps redirect; the search box does this automatically, and it's not a likely capitalisation for a link 16:23:11 -!- tromp has joined. 16:24:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: LAter). 16:28:00 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:30:12 what do I do with constructors 16:30:49 do I generate an arity-n function for an n-ary constructor and then partially or fully apply it whenever 16:31:57 I suppose that's the way to go 16:32:25 [[Talk:Random]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56738&oldid=56713 * Ais523 * (+1306) /* Turing completeness */ a blueprint for this 16:33:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:48:29 -!- XorSwap has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:49:01 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:49:05 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:49:37 -!- tromp has joined. 16:53:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:15:57 `olist 1127 17:15:58 olist 1127: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 17:42:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 17:42:47 shachaf: yeah, exactly, that's what I came in to sa 17:43:00 but I see I'm half an hour late 17:49:27 -!- tromp has joined. 17:53:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:10:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:14:57 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:18:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:22:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:24:56 -!- tromp has joined. 18:29:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:41:18 -!- XorSwap has joined. 18:44:19 -!- tromp has joined. 18:48:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:54:33 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:28:55 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:30:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:34:19 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 19:39:40 -!- SopaXT has joined. 19:41:05 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 19:41:39 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 19:42:10 -!- tromp has joined. 19:47:37 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:36:11 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:15:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:27:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:38:38 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:49:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:54:23 -!- erkin has joined. 22:59:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:14:36 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.0.1). 23:15:46 -!- imode has joined. 23:29:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:37:31 mo'list 23:38:01 this is starting to look like a good time for the three fiends to call in their second debt 23:38:35 whose side were the fiends on, again? 23:38:35 twh 23:38:43 their own hth 23:39:01 it is not quite clear who'd they support in this case, indeed 23:39:59 does http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html predate the introduction of the fiends? 23:40:06 I guess it does 23:45:14 that does seem like a bit of foreshadowing 23:46:16 My faulty memory told me that it was the fiends who made the comment about the sides. 23:46:47 they did want the pyramid gate to get destroyed, but that could be either to destroy all the gates or to get the gods to destroy the world 23:48:44 for the latter, taking varsuuvius out of action in a moment would be the obvious move 23:49:38 (assuming he gets back into action first) 23:49:40 *e 23:52:20 otoh they have to fail at it for the story to continue... 2018-07-17: 00:00:30 which might be a plot reason for them _not_ to do it - it would keep them seemingly infallible 00:02:53 They only used their shortest one so far, right? 00:04:27 ...i thought it was the longest? time to check. 00:06:11 Oh, you're right. 00:08:11 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html 00:08:16 So there's one short and one long one left. 00:27:12 thanks, i didn't find the first one 00:27:46 and naturally got drawn into archive binging... 00:30:47 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 00:41:22 that globe in the last girl genius appears to have atlantis 00:41:59 oerjan was drawin into archive binging so much that he's reading the wrong comic 00:42:21 and a strange red broken line 00:42:37 well, i got better and went back to my usual webcrawl 00:42:43 which is a bit delayed 00:43:26 so apparently gil never saw the one in mechanicsburg, i guess tarvek wasn't close enough 00:45:16 next up, dmm's site 00:45:20 or possibly eating 01:11:35 eating won this one 01:44:49 -!- deltab_ has changed nick to deltab. 01:58:04 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:17:16 [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56739&oldid=31337 * A * (+251) 03:19:42 [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56740&oldid=56739 * A * (+12) Oops! I did this wrong. 03:21:29 [[Talk:This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56741&oldid=23195 * A * (+117) 03:28:25 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 03:29:45 [[Multi-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56742 * A * (+437) Created page with "A Multi-machine is an extremely simple program type invented bt [[User:A]] to check decision, looping, addition, subtraction, termination, input, and output in a simpler way c..." 03:35:39 [[Multi-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56743&oldid=56742 * A * (-9) 03:37:40 [[Multi-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56744&oldid=56743 * A * (+224) 03:54:43 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56745&oldid=56697 * A * (+92) /* Definer */ 03:58:46 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56746&oldid=56745 * A * (-3) /* Definer */ 04:04:49 I think I understand the importance of the Stg and Cmm internal languages now 04:06:59 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:07:15 [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56747&oldid=22105 * A * (+175) /* Examples */ 04:10:22 [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56748&oldid=56747 * A * (-12) /* Examples */ 04:18:07 [[Definer]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56749&oldid=56748 * A * (+18) /* Examples */ 04:19:19 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:45:54 -!- imode has joined. 07:21:08 -!- tromp has joined. 07:25:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:27:42 -!- tromp has joined. 07:30:20 !! 07:30:25 I just compiled my first thing 07:31:19 provided, it was very simple: main = main 07:43:21 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 07:48:05 mniip: NICE! 07:48:14 can you also compile a hello world? 07:48:19 no 07:48:25 or do you have no IO in this thing? 07:48:32 I'm currently inspecting the assembly for 'id' and (.) to see if it's correct 07:49:09 then I'll implement compilation of constructors and pattern matches 07:49:16 then probably let-bindings 07:49:36 and I need to figure out what to do with non-trivial pattern bindings in lets or global scope 07:49:55 mniip: so you'll have algebraic types? 07:50:22 yes 07:50:24 arbitrary algebraic types that you can define in simply typed, or just a few built-in ones? 07:50:29 I guess it doesn't matter much 07:50:35 there isn't a typechecker yet btw 07:50:43 How much can I cheat 07:50:45 that just makes the typechecker harder, not the code generation 07:50:46 arbitrary 07:50:50 there's a "data" declaration 07:50:57 By compiling a Haskell-like language to Rust. :D 07:51:10 Lymia, not by much 07:51:39 It avoids all the low level nightmares like low level representation of ADTs. 07:51:43 At least 07:51:49 not really no 07:52:16 Not really? 07:54:05 wob_jonas, oh and there's no GC yet lol 07:54:27 I suppose what I mean is 07:54:43 mniip: sure, you can add the GC later 07:54:51 I get to avoid all the less fun low level stuff, and just focus on the interesting stuff like the type inference. 07:55:16 Lymia, then write a lambda calculus interpreter in haskell 07:55:33 I guess :P 07:55:43 mniip: do you optimize function calls with multiple arguments so you don't create a temporary bound function when the compiler sees the first argument and then call into that when it sees the second argument? 07:55:55 no 07:56:07 it's a chain of closures with increasingly more upvalues 07:56:37 their entry code is very short though 07:56:53 wait, is this because you're doing a lazy interpreter? 07:57:21 also, wow, this was fast 07:58:38 of course, call by name like I said 07:59:17 why? do you just want a mini-haskell interpreter? 07:59:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:00:21 yes 08:00:36 ouch. but if that's what you want, sure, go on 08:03:25 How hard are thunks to implement anyway? 08:04:36 I imagine they're something that are easy to implement in a way that's subtly wrong 08:05:26 shachaf: yes, the fiends did make such a comment too, not only xykon: see http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html 08:05:45 especially the first one. in the second one they just misdirect Vaarsuvius 08:07:38 fun 08:07:45 gdb will rewrite f__g into f.g 08:09:50 it also cannot infer arguments correctly for some reason? 08:12:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:12:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:12:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:12:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:12:24 mniip: that latter is probably because you didn't use the right calling conventino 08:12:58 I did 08:13:01 the code works fine 08:13:24 it's just that gdb keeps telling things are different from what they are 08:14:11 do you write any debug info? maybe gdb doesn't know how many and what type of arguments your functions have. 08:16:35 I run 'as' with -g and the rts C code is compiled with -g 08:17:31 mniip: um, but as won't know how many arguments your assembly function has. it will just know to write debug info to identify all symbols, such as all functions where they know the name because the as code has it. 08:18:02 wob_jonas, no like when I invoke a C function 08:18:13 I put stuff into %rdi, %rsi, %rdx, %rcx, ... 08:18:33 and is that C function compiled with debugging info too? 08:18:36 and the compiled C code looks for arguments in exactly those registers 08:18:49 but for some reason gdb looks elsewhere 08:18:50 yes 08:19:04 also, you've made sure that you don't run a too old gdb or a too old gcc, right? ancient gdb has mysterious bugs. 08:19:15 anything from the last few years should be fine 08:19:31 unless it's Apple's releases of course 08:19:54 strange 08:21:53 and you do the linking with ld in gnu binutils or gold from gcc, so the debug info should get correctly propagated, right? 08:24:27 I wonder if there's a way to directly ask gdb what he thinks the prototype of that function is, even if it's not called 08:24:53 I guess you could try to ls that function, which should at least make sure that some debug info got through. 08:25:11 What comment? 08:26:11 shachaf: the comment about what evil people want and that they're not one happy family 08:26:32 re " My faulty memory told me that it was the fiends who made the comment about the sides." 08:26:44 Oh, but I remembered the specific phrasing. 08:26:51 "they don't know about some of those yet" 08:26:56 So it was definitely faulty memory. 08:26:56 the fiends say they don't want either side among Redcloak's Team Evil and the OOTS to win 08:27:03 Right. 08:29:49 seems to work! 08:30:09 what seems to work? 08:30:19 ah er I just fixed a bug 08:30:20 :w 08:32:01 so. constructors and pattern matching 08:32:31 can you compile function calls and lambdas with upvalues (closures) yet? 08:32:36 yes 08:32:38 nice 08:32:45 (.) is one such 08:33:28 I mean it wouldn't be much of a challenge if I didn't implvement upvalue handling duh 08:47:42 mniip: sure, but you could implement handling algebraic types and pattern matching into local variables before you implement function calls 08:48:02 "local variables" 08:48:31 yes, local to the function you have, which is built out of constructors and general pattern matching including let 08:51:09 but I guess if you want this to be a mini-haskell, then it makes sense to start with closures on the heap, since they're already TC 09:02:27 mniip: you're making me want to try writing a compiler 09:11:34 mniip: anyway, that was quick. you only started writing this yesterday. I'll be interested to see what you get when it's ready. 09:19:57 okay so pattern matching is where local variables come in 09:22:08 mniip: yes. pattern matching binds values into local variables. 09:22:28 are you implementing general pattern matching, or just matching on a single level of constructor? 09:22:36 general, shouldn't be an issue 09:22:38 I mean, general patterns which can be nested or even just a variable 09:22:50 data Pat = VarPat IdName | JoinPat Pat Pat | HolePat | DataPat IdName [Pat] deriving Show 09:23:24 and do you detect when the match patterns are exclusive so there's no need for an else clause? or will you only do that after a typechecker? 09:23:47 no why 09:23:54 it's not like I'm writing an optimizing or fast compiler 09:23:58 sure 09:24:22 not planning to compete with GHC, rather wanted something with similar runtime asymptotics 09:26:44 what I mean, "length" should be linear time no matter the constant 09:27:04 don't care if it does allocation on every iteration 09:30:24 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:31:18 Hi, I just discovered thet it is "World Emoji Day" today, so I will be aiming to make a version 1.0.0 of my functional emoji language and release it (it already works atm). Currently the language supports function definition, string and number literals, input for strings and input and output for either literal. Oh, and it is completely restricted to emoji (input, output and source code). I am planning to add some arithmatic operations and perhaps num 09:31:19 input. Is there something important I am missing for a 1.0.0 version, do you think? 09:32:59 Zero-width joiners? Skin tone modifiers? 09:33:31 In my Olvasható translator, I require all matches to be exhaustive, but the translator itself doesn't check that, it's the SML interpreter that does 09:39:48 shachaf: I use the complete list of emoji, so all seqences of code points that are supposed to be displayed as one emoji (and classified as an emoji) are accepted, nothing else. 09:41:46 There are some key emoji that are used for language syntax, all other emoji may be used as function names. 09:45:48 Fogity: is there some way in which this will be better than the approximately five already existing emoji languages? 09:46:42 1) it is functional, the others I have seen have been stack based or object oriented 09:47:26 2) it is completely restricted to emoji, a pure emoji language per se 09:47:48 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:48:49 No whitespace? 09:49:07 no 09:49:16 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:49:16 Fogity: you're right, none of the others seem to be functional. most of them are stack-based. 09:56:39 Hmm, what do you think is a good license for a project like this? 09:56:40 [[Tom Murphy VII]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56750 * B jonas * (+380) Created page with "'''Tom Murphy VII''' PhD, also known as Tom7, is a creator of esoteric languages and other esoteric projects, mostly but not exclusively computer-related. Languages and other..." 09:57:02 [[Tom7]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56751 * B jonas * (+28) Redirected page to [[Tom Murphy VII]] 09:57:19 [[Wikiplia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56752&oldid=43289 * B jonas * (+44) identify creator 09:58:08 [[ABC (compiler)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56753&oldid=53729 * B jonas * (+19) link creator 09:58:40 [[Wikiplia]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56754&oldid=56752 * B jonas * (-5) reclassify as a non-joke language 09:59:13 [[Tom Murphy VII]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56755&oldid=56750 * B jonas * (+21) 10:04:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:14:26 -!- aloril_ has joined. 10:15:30 [[WysiScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56756&oldid=51635 * B jonas * (-40) the homepage claims it's implemented. I didn't test. 10:16:08 -!- aloril__ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:17:49 -!- Melvar has joined. 10:18:40 [[Y86]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56757&oldid=50888 * B jonas * (-49) /* Addressing modes */ dt already bolds its text, so no need to bold it again, and double bolding showed up strange in a browser 10:28:03 hmm 10:28:10 hmm 10:28:17 [[Incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56758&oldid=54404 * B jonas * (+24) /* See also */ 10:28:19 I did it wrong apparently 10:28:46 evaluating 'g (f x)' would evaluate f 10:28:53 which is not supposed to happen 10:29:09 I see 10:29:17 thankfully there's an easy fix 10:29:21 it's supposed to evaluate g 10:29:34 it's supposed to create an 'f x' closure and feed that to g 10:29:38 but only up to its top-level constructor 10:29:45 right 10:29:53 considering g is a function it's not going to have a constructor 10:30:27 mniip: that still matters 10:30:39 it doesn't evaluate the upvalues or bound arguments of g 10:30:42 sure 10:30:50 only evaluates which lambda in the source code it points to 10:31:20 yeah, that, everything is evaluated only up to its top level constructor when it's evaluated 10:32:12 now I'm met with another problem 10:32:32 it I have a JoinPat (VarPat "a") (DataPat "False" []) 10:32:41 and I allocate a local variable for the 'a' 10:32:46 and then the False match fails 10:32:53 I have to deallocate the 'a' 10:33:21 what? you're already adding characters too? do you add numbers too? 10:34:02 what? 10:34:09 wob_jonas: variable name 10:34:10 'a' is an identifier 10:34:20 the JoinPat (VarPat "a") (DataPat "False" []) stands for something like 10:34:24 case _ of a@False -> _ 10:35:04 ah, so it's a parse tree? 10:35:11 yes 10:35:22 I was wondering on that, but JoinPat didn't make sense 10:35:35 ah, it represents an at-pattern 10:36:14 those are called join patterns? I didn't know 10:36:40 *Main> parse "foo = case _ of (a@False) -> _" 10:36:40 Just [IdBndr (VarPat "foo") (Case (Id "_") [CaseBranch (JoinPat (VarPat "a") (DataPat "False" [])) (Id "_")])] 10:38:16 so that parses the contents of a module? 10:38:20 yes 10:38:58 do you eventually want to make this be able to compile itself? 10:39:05 I've had that idea 10:39:15 cool 10:39:20 but that might be complicated given the syntax of haskell 10:39:45 sure 10:39:59 you'll have to restrict the compiler source code itself to a subset 10:40:22 yeah but the 10 imports I have at the top 10:40:48 what I'd really like is compiler that can bootstrap itself in possibly multiple steps from an interpreter that is very simple 10:41:36 it bothers me a lot that Rust only has one implementation, and it can only be compiled by itself or a slightly earlier version of itself, so you need like fifty steps to bootstrap it if you don't yet have a rust compiler 10:42:08 so I hope someone will eventually make a gcc frontend that can compile rust 10:42:34 wob_jonas: GHC has a similar problem, I believe 10:42:42 Even though there are other Haskell implementations 10:43:46 because gcc can be bootstrapped much easier, in like six steps from any very old C compiler: first you compile an old version of gcc back when it was written in portable C and could be bootstrapped in two or three steps from any old C compiler but could already compile C++, then you bootstrap a modern gcc from that old gcc (you need this extra leve 10:43:46 l because gcc is written in C++ now) 10:44:07 Taneb: I see 10:46:36 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:50:46 Taneb, yeah definitely 10:50:59 I don't think you can even bootstrap GHC HEAD on debian now 11:06:45 But to be fair, rustc is at least developped to easily do cross-compilation, so if someone adds a new target to it, they can bootstrap to that target from rustc running on existing well-supported targets. 11:07:08 mniip: what's stopping that? 11:07:25 iirc GHC HEAD wants something newer than 8.0 11:07:40 Although I suspect that you still need some of a libc ported to the target for it. 11:08:11 Oh, I misunderstood what you meant, mniip 11:08:20 -!- SopaXT has joined. 11:08:28 I was thinking bootstrapping in many steps from C 11:08:31 Also, the rustc devs themselves distribute working easy to install precompiled binaries of rustc. 11:09:13 So if you don't care about bootstrapping, you can just download the latest of those, and get a working compiler, or compile trunk with it. 11:09:28 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:09:36 And you were thinking bootstrapping in one step from system packages 11:12:41 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:14:03 [[Frums]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56759 * A * (+1009) Created page with "Frums is a slightly modified version of [[Smurf]]. ==Syntax== " pushes the string, surrounded by " s and may contain newlines, " and \ escaped by \, onto the stack. "ok""\"..." 11:14:54 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56760&oldid=56759 * A * (+54) 11:15:01 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56761&oldid=56760 * A * (-1) 11:16:28 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56762&oldid=56761 * A * (-102) /* Syntax */ 11:17:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:18:37 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56763&oldid=56762 * A * (+25) 11:18:51 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56764&oldid=56763 * A * (+0) 11:23:35 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56765&oldid=56764 * A * (-20) 11:29:56 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56766&oldid=56765 * A * (-155) 11:34:06 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56767&oldid=56766 * A * (-51) 11:34:15 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56768&oldid=56767 * A * (-11) 11:35:16 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:41:57 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56769&oldid=56768 * A * (-107) 11:57:06 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:57:53 -!- SopaXT has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:58:15 -!- tromp has joined. 12:00:05 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:15:46 -!- sebbu has joined. 12:23:55 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56770&oldid=56769 * A * (-127) 12:29:11 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56771&oldid=56770 * A * (-45) 12:35:50 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56772&oldid=56771 * A * (-45) 12:39:13 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56773&oldid=56772 * A * (-15) 12:40:59 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56774&oldid=56773 * A * (+13) 12:49:56 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56775&oldid=56774 * A * (-42) 13:05:00 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56776&oldid=56775 * A * (-19) 13:05:04 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:13:58 -!- MDude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:19:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:20:17 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:46:10 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56777&oldid=56776 * A * (-33) 14:48:34 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56778&oldid=56777 * A * (+31) 14:56:54 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56779&oldid=56778 * A * (+22) 14:57:16 [[Frums]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56780&oldid=56779 * A * (-22) 15:07:23 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 15:08:53 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:33:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:47:19 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:42:32 -!- MDude has joined. 16:52:13 -!- mahdianderson11 has joined. 16:54:57 -!- mahdianderson11 has left. 17:01:56 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:07:52 -!- xa0 has joined. 17:19:11 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:24:51 -!- MDude has left ("Closing Window"). 17:26:42 -!- xa0 has joined. 17:28:50 -!- MDude has joined. 17:40:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:56:16 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:01:36 -!- mroman has joined. 18:01:46 Does anybody have some knowledge about how db storage engines work? 18:01:57 Let's say I have a db with rows of fixed size and I wanna update a row 18:02:05 I seek to the row's position, write the data, call fsync. 18:02:22 BUT: The server crashes in the middle of the OS trying to write the data to disk 18:02:34 so half of the row has been overwritten, the other half wasn't. 18:02:40 which means I have now a corrupt row. 18:02:47 so obviously that's not how it can work 18:03:53 one way of solving that (at least how some filesystems do it) is to have a journal 18:04:16 I actually don't overwrite the row but append a new row, then somehow mark the existing row as deprecated and the new row as visible 18:04:54 appending the new row fsync is fairly trivial 18:04:57 right 18:05:17 but how do you mark the other row as deprecated and the other row as visible? 18:05:18 how do you mark them? 18:05:23 exactly 18:05:26 no idea 18:05:37 if I mark the existing one as deprecated and then the server crashes 18:05:40 then the row is gone 18:05:46 so I have a corruption again 18:05:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:05:58 mroman: I can tell you how the atomic update is implemented 18:06:27 there are at least two ways to do it, neither always better than the other 18:07:01 -!- mroman_ has joined. 18:07:05 lost connection :( 18:07:06 but yes 18:07:10 I NEED TO KNOW HOW THIS WORKS 18:07:11 mroman: I can tell you how the atomic update is implemented 18:07:15 there are at least two ways to do it, neither always better than the other 18:07:19 [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56781&oldid=56740 * Ais523 * (+723) /* Computational Class */ reformat 18:08:04 the simpler method is this: have a separate "transaction finished" bit and a "transaction file". the transaction finished bit is normally zero. when you want to do a write, which could update multiple rows in multiple tables in most DB engines, 18:08:32 [[Talk:This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56782&oldid=56741 * Ais523 * (+485) /* This is Turing-complete? */ yes, it is 18:09:13 first record all the changes you will need to make to the main DB file, with addresses for where to make the changes, in the transaction file. then do a blocking fdatasync on the transaction file. (you'd technically only need a write barrier rather than an fdatasync, but there's no write barrier operation on disks because it wouldn't be possible to 18:09:13 implement them more efficiently than an fdatasync). 18:09:48 [[Talk:Multi-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56783 * Ais523 * (+224) an idea for making this more objective 18:10:09 then change the transaction bit to one, then do an fdatasync on the transaction bit. the trick here is that since you're updating just one bit, even if the hard disk crashes while syncing that bit, you'll be able to read it back as either a one or a zero, and either one is correct. 18:10:13 (but fdatasync doesn't sync file size afaik so if you _append_ to a file you'd need fsync?) 18:10:24 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:10:55 mroman_: maybe, I don't know. 18:11:04 then write the changes to the main database file, fdatasync that, then write zero to the transaction bit, and fdatasync that. 18:11:24 I think you can actually do this with just two fdatasyncs somehow instead of four, but I don't recall how. 18:12:08 and then the trick is, when you open the database, you check the transaction bit. normally it's zero. if it's nonzero, then you know that the program or the computer crashed during the operation of writing the changes back to the normal database file, 18:12:53 so you read the changes from the transaction file and write them back to the main database file (some of them might already been written, but that's not a problem), then fdatasync the main database file, then set the transaction finished bit to zero, then fdatasync that. 18:13:30 The second method goes the opposite way: instead of writing the changes to the transaction file, you write the old contents of the parts of the database file you change to the transaction file. 18:14:14 hm. clever. 18:14:16 In that case, if you find that the transaction bit was one when you open the database, then you assume writing back the transaction was in progress, and you roll back that transaction to its previous clean state by copying the previous state from the transaction file. 18:14:35 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:15:33 There are also some optimizations you can do, such as adding pointers and writing the new row in a different place so that the actual transaction only consists of a change of a pointer in the file, but these usually aren't used by databases, they're used by filesystems instead. 18:15:58 Since some modern filesystems offer you to guarantee consistency if the computer crashes. 18:16:13 Old filesystems like FAT didn't use to bother with that, in those cases if the computer crashes, the filesystem can be in an inconsistent state. 18:16:48 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:00 You can repair them to a consistent state with a scan, but that may involve data loss. 18:17:01 I wonder if it's even really possible to implement FAT in such a way you get consistency in the case of a crash. 18:17:14 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:17:53 I'm going to guess the answer is "not unless the underlying storage has some suitable atomic primitive, which by the way it probably doesn't" 18:18:42 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 18:20:22 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:21:48 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:26:19 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:26:21 pikhq: I recommend reading https://sqlite.org/atomiccommit.html and https://sqlite.org/wal.html for how sqlite3 implements atomicity, it's more detailed and more correct than what I told you. 18:26:59 pikhq: it is possible, but only if you make sure you only use that implementation when you next open the file system. the transaction system is general enough that it can work on any file system, which is how ext2 was backwards-compatibly extended to ext3. 18:27:58 You could have a similar extension for FAT, but nobody cares enough about FAT to do it. FAT has bigger problems than this. 18:28:33 Note that despite its name, ext4 isn't backwards compatible with ext2 or ext3, it's a more modern and better file system, which can do more stuff because it breaks backwards compatibility completely. 18:30:04 <\oren\> Google chrome keeps crashing when I try to join a meeting on google meet 18:31:26 and I guess you do roughly the same things if fsync returns an error? 18:32:30 mroman: if fsync returns an error or if you run out of disk space, during the first part of this you can just rollback the transaction, during the second part of this you're screwed and you have to retry opening the database. 18:33:14 but if it's just running out of disk space, then the database can guarantee that that can never happen in the second phase. a disk hardware IO error (filing fsync) or running out of memory is always possible, but you just leave the state alone in those cases and hope for the best. 18:33:57 in general, if fsync gives you an error and this isn't a network file system, then you should be worried that your disk or motherboard has a hardware problem (or your OS has a bug), in which case your data might already be corrupt before you get the error 18:35:36 basically, you handle those errors just like you'd handle a crash of the computer. 18:38:03 mroman: I recommend reading https://sqlite.org/atomiccommit.html and https://sqlite.org/wal.html for how sqlite3 implements atomicity, it's more detailed and more correct than what I told you. 18:38:09 (was addressing the wrong person) 18:44:01 wob_jonas: Ah, right, of *course* you could just add journaling or similar to FAT. 18:44:29 And yes, I'm aware FAT has other problems. 18:44:43 It's a filesystem which is only interesting because it's so ubiquitously supported, after all. 18:45:16 Right, many digital cameras will only write photos on FAT, and similarly some mobile phones that take pictures. 18:45:37 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:45:52 And it's the only filesystem UEFI guarantees will be supported. 18:47:40 The problem with FAT that annoys me the most is that it's really hard to figure out a compatible extension to support mtimes past its unepoch in year 2107, because the windows extensions have consumed all bytes in the directory entry structure. 18:47:56 pikhq: ah right, I didn't even think of that 18:48:21 mind you, I use FAT as a boot partition for grub-legacy, but only for historical reasons, I could use ext2 the same way 18:50:02 It's a damned shame MS insists on patent fees for exFAT. 18:50:16 But nooo, gotta make it hard to kill off FAT forever. 18:51:12 also, grub-legacy is unmaintained, so I'll have to change away from it to a newer bootloader (such as grub2 or syslinux) the latest when I want it to read from a hard disk that's bigger than 3 terabytes 18:51:12 um 18:51:12 bigger than 2 terabytes 18:52:14 mind you, that's because the new partition table design is stupid, and doesn't support using it together with the legacy partition table, so on a hard disk larger than 2 terabytes, you can't have a legacy partition table at all, not even one that only identifies the partitions before the 2GB barrier 18:52:22 what's with these numbers in loader(8) and vgex(4) and all that 18:52:24 but there's not much I can do about that unless I want to write my own bootloader 18:52:42 syslog(3) syslogd(8) 18:53:39 and I think I have a choice between at least three bootloaders to switch to, so it won't be too bad 18:54:01 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 18:54:02 I also have to wonder if it's even possible to implement exFAT without using the patents. 18:54:24 I mean, it's not easy to even tell, since the filesystem isn't officially documented anywhere. 18:54:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:55:34 If it is possible, I expect it'd be a massive project to find out. 18:55:40 (and MS would probably sue anyways) 18:55:56 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:55:58 mroman: the numbers are manpage categories. you can use the command man 2 write to display the write(2) manpage, and its *roff source is stored in a directory called write2. the parenthesis syntax is shown only in the formatted manpages. 18:56:23 mroman: the numeric categories have a conventional meaning, which is sometimes explained in the intro($number) manpage: 18:57:08 namely 1 is command-line programs, 2 is system calls, 3 is library functions (libc and other libraries), 8 is command-line programs that normally only a system administrators run, 18:57:16 I write software everyday and I have no clue about whether I'm violating a patent or not. 18:57:25 https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/ gives the short version after each number 18:57:31 I don't know how anybody knows. 18:57:42 granted, not sure if there are even software patents in the EU 18:57:51 but I have no idea how devs in the US do this. 18:58:07 the categorization is really old, from ancient unix, it's still used basically because there are command-line programs with the same name as system calls or library functions 18:58:16 probably you just write and hope you don't get sued or at least if you get sued it doesn't cost you your personal finances 18:58:42 mroman: man man also explains this 18:59:07 there's also a few other nonstandard categories, including (3p) and (n) 18:59:19 (3p) is for perl modules IIRC 19:00:41 mroman_: Usually, you just either straight-up ignore it, or you just avoid patents that you know sue-happy companies will try to enforce. 19:01:38 yeah but how do you know patents even exist 19:01:39 like 19:01:50 you'd have to know each and every patent 19:02:58 I think you just hope that whatever book or article you read about whatever thing the patent covers mentions that there's a patent, or you notice because there are alternatives who specifically say they're created to avoid a patent. 19:05:01 In particular, the GIF format was patented but that patent expired, and before it expired there used to be a lot of webpages explaining why you shouldn't use GIF, then there's some other old compression format that was patented but I don't recall the details, and the MP3 sound format and some video formats are still patented. 19:05:01 So some MP3 encoders usually explain this in their documentation. 19:05:09 Honestly? It's kinda a minefield. 19:05:15 MP3, BTW, is no longer patented. 19:05:19 (expired) 19:06:02 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:06:16 Looks like MPEG-2 *just* expired? 19:06:19 But some patents are deliberately kept half-secret (as in, it's technically public but there are so many patents you won't find it unless you pay a patent lawyer), whose owner is waiting until he can sue some large fish. IIRC those were called submarine patent. 19:06:58 And of course ther are a lot of patents that should be invalid because there's prior art, but their owner hopes that people will pay up instead of paying for a lawyer to prove that the patent is invalid. 19:07:15 The two strategies can be combined. 19:07:48 pikhq: it is? doesn't matter much anymore, I think, because I recently bricked my old mobile phone which would only play MP3 and WAV. 19:09:44 Yeah, MP3 patents have finally expired. 19:09:51 good 19:09:53 Just in time to be kinda irrelevant! 19:10:01 yeah 19:10:24 but I think some video formats are still patented and used, although they also have free alternatives 19:10:37 Oh, absolutely. 19:10:46 H.264 is patented, H.265 is patented... 19:11:06 AV-1 is patented, just with royalty-free licensing... 19:11:25 what? isn't h264 a patent-free one? 19:11:37 Nope! 19:11:48 Oh, very very much no. 19:12:34 who owns the patent? Intel? 19:12:43 It's a fucking massive patent pool. 19:13:01 wait, I should be able to just look thisd up 19:13:09 Because it was designed in a process which encouraged like 50 different companies to submit everything they had a patent on to the design. 19:13:46 http://www.mpegla.com/main/programs/AVC/Documents/avc-att1.pdf This 115 page document is the list of patents MPEG-LA can license that they believe are applicable to H.264. 19:15:19 multiple owners sharing it 19:15:19 ok 19:16:56 It was intentionally designed to have as many patents as possible. 19:18:15 mroman_: you can search patents 19:18:23 mroman_: but the wisdom is that it's better *not* to 19:18:57 what else is still patented that I should know about? are some of the algorithms for solving the Rubik's cube patented? 19:18:59 because in the USA, knowingly infringing carries much stiffer penalties 19:19:08 Yep! 19:19:19 so it's better to just not look, and hope, than to look, think you're good, and lose the suit 19:19:49 Software patents are basically a tax on operation, collected by a bunch of rent-seeking bastards. 19:23:22 For the purpose of D&D 3.5 alignment, does it count as an Evil act to patent a file format or other protocol and then spread a lot of devices or software that use it? 19:24:06 Would a Paladin fall and lose their powers if they even knowingly worked for a company that does that? 19:24:14 Lawful Evil in particular, IMO. 19:25:28 Also, now I'm scared. Are there trained spies who watch me on the tram or metro and look at what method I use for the rubik's cube, ready to call the police if I use a patented method? 19:26:29 Or look at youtube videos of solving the rubik's cube, especially in high-ranked speedcubing competitions? 19:26:29 Was there yet a scandal when someone would win a speedcubing competition after buying a patent license? 19:27:54 Can I even do (M U' M2 U' M2 U' M U2 M2 U) to permute four last layer edges without infringing on a patent? That movement sequence seems short enough that anyone with a computer can discover it easily, so it probably can't be patented. But a whole method, some of those are creative enough that they could be patented. 19:28:24 -!- zseri has joined. 19:29:36 -!- imode has joined. 19:40:30 mroman_: those were good questions, do you have any more before I go to bed? 19:41:09 I mean, I can logread tomorrow, but still 19:41:55 So, I am finally pretty much set to make a 1.0.0 relese of my emoji language. But I am still a bit undecided on license. 19:42:35 Is there any reason not to use MIT? 19:42:50 no 19:43:03 Fogity: if you're asking about a copyright license of the interpreter, I don't know a perfect one, but as far as I can tell, the boost license would be the most sympathetic one except for one thing: 19:44:48 the license doesn't explicitly say that the copyright license rights it grants are worldwide and lasts forever (or as long as the copyright protection lasts), and the copyright law of Hungary says that those should be explicit or else they're interpreted narrowly. 19:45:28 So if you distribute something under the boost license, then IANAL but you could sue me if I distribute it for too many decades or distribute it outside of Hungary. 19:46:13 This sort of made sense back when copyright was used for books and television series and films, but not much for software. 19:46:38 It's not very likely that such an exploit would work though, so I still recommend the boost license for software. 19:46:57 It looks a lot like the MIT license to me, what is the difference? 19:48:10 Fogity: the difference is that it allows you to distribute compiled binaries without the license, but doesn't allow that for source code or other form. 19:48:37 Ah, I see. 19:49:06 Read the last three lines of the middle paragraph 19:50:31 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:51:50 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:53:44 This exception was added because there are tons of free software licences similar to the MIT, all alike, so some bigger software packages have to include a long file that lists multiple such license, each applying to some code they used, and reproducing that in a final binary or installer would be inconvenient, 19:54:15 so with the boost license, you can at least omit that one from the binary (eg. the installer "I accept the license" dialog box) and reproduce it only in the source code. 19:54:59 And binaries often contain more licenses than source code packages because you distribute multiple libraries together in binary, but often distribute them in separate packages for source code 19:55:33 Now of course, for a toy esolang, it's likely that none of this matters and nobody will care about your license, but you asked about it. 19:56:09 Fogity: You could also ask ais523, he knows a bit more details about software licenses than me, but that might cause you to miss the deadline because he's rarely on irc. 19:58:06 Yeah, I appreciate the info. But as you say, it doesn't matter that much so I'll just add MIT as that is just some button clicks on gitlab. :P 19:58:29 ok 19:59:41 But I will consider it for any more useful project. And I can just change it later anyway, for this. 20:00:41 Right, but if you change the license, please keep the original license too as an alternative. 20:01:43 Well, there is always the git history 20:06:52 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:17:12 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56784&oldid=56663 * DMC * (+78) 20:20:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:21:25 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:30:04 -!- mroman_ has quit (Quit: Page closed). 20:36:18 -!- imode has joined. 20:44:07 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:55:26 -!- erkin has joined. 21:06:25 Yay, I got the language out in time. Now I should probably make a wiki-page for it. 21:06:56 Anyway, here is the repo if anyone is curious: https://gitlab.com/fogity/squared-cool 21:12:40 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fogity * New user account 21:20:17 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56785&oldid=56704 * Fogity * (+197) /* Introductions */ 21:23:20 Should I use the proper name of the language (🆒) for the page title or should it be ascii characters? 21:27:57 Seems like non-ascii characters are fine. 22:12:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:17:02 [[Borsch]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56786&oldid=54703 * Fogity * (+0) Fixed erroneous category name. 22:33:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:48:40 @metar ENVA 22:48:41 ENVA 172220Z VRB02KT CAVOK 19/16 Q1015 RMK WIND 670FT 18006KT 22:56:37 -!- puckipedia has changed nick to puck. 23:14:28 [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56787 * Fogity * (+3257) Created page with " is an [[esoteric programming language]] currently developed by [[User:Fogity]]. It is a fairly straight forward functional language with the caveat that the source code,..." 23:18:42 here's the seed of an idea for you all: how could a language be designed so that it forces the programmer to use concurrency? 23:19:24 obviously you could do that by just saying that every line runs at once or something, but could you do it in a way that the interpreter itself doesn't enforce? 23:24:59 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:31:05 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:31:36 [[Squared cool]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56788 * Fogity * (+18) This is the unicode name for the emoji and an alternate name for the language . 23:37:02 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56789&oldid=56650 * Fogity * (+11) Added . 23:59:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2018-07-18: 00:14:10 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 00:18:41 [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56790&oldid=18204 * A * (+90) /* Programs */ 00:24:11 [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56791&oldid=56790 * A * (+72) Just forgot to say something... 00:24:53 [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56792&oldid=56791 * A * (-21) :( Checking... 00:28:16 [[User:A]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56793 * A * (+149) Created page with "There is currently no text in this page. You can [[search for this page title]] in other pages, [[search the related logs]], or [[create this page]]." 00:51:59 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Quit: EliteBNC free bnc service - http://elitebnc.org - be a part of the Elite!). 00:54:35 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56794&oldid=56793 * A * (-149) Blanked the page 00:55:40 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 00:56:08 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56795&oldid=56794 * A * (+5) 00:56:42 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56796&oldid=56795 * A * (+46) 00:57:17 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56797&oldid=56796 * A * (+106) 00:58:46 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56798&oldid=56797 * A * (+7) 00:58:59 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56799&oldid=56798 * A * (+5) 00:59:09 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56800&oldid=56799 * A * (+2) 00:59:24 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56801&oldid=56800 * A * (+5) 00:59:32 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56802&oldid=56801 * A * (+2) 01:00:07 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56803&oldid=56802 * A * (+4) 01:00:36 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56804&oldid=56803 * A * (-13) 01:00:58 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56805&oldid=56804 * A * (-169) Blanked the page 01:07:36 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 01:14:48 [[EsoScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56806 * A * (+461) Created page with "==Formatting== ''Italic text'' ''Italic test'' '''Bold text''' '''Bold text''' '''''Bold & italic text''''' '''''Bold & italic text''''' ==Links== ===Internal links=== U..." 01:17:15 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56807&oldid=56806 * A * (-22) 01:17:53 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56808&oldid=56807 * A * (+20) 01:19:46 -!- moei has joined. 01:20:31 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56809&oldid=56808 * A * (+115) /* HI */ 01:22:35 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56810&oldid=56809 * A * (+72) /* =Numbered list */ 01:23:30 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56811&oldid=56810 * A * (+89) 01:24:19 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56812&oldid=56811 * A * (-168) /* Links(Only available in esolangs.org) */ 01:28:58 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56813&oldid=56812 * A * (-72) /* Indent */ 01:29:17 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56814&oldid=56813 * A * (-59) /* HI */ 01:29:27 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56815&oldid=56814 * A * (-9) /* HI */ 01:29:53 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56816&oldid=56815 * A * (+1) /* =Numbered list */ 01:30:12 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56817&oldid=56816 * A * (-28) /* Headings(may mess up the page a bit) */ 01:30:25 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56818&oldid=56817 * A * (+1) /* Formatting */ 01:31:22 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56819&oldid=56805 * A * (+23) Redirected page to [[EsoScript]] 01:32:15 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56820&oldid=56818 * A * (-141) /* Formatting */ 01:32:50 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56821&oldid=56820 * A * (+9) /* Heading */ 01:33:02 [[EsoScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56822&oldid=56821 * A * (-9) /* Heading */ 01:34:04 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56823&oldid=56819 * A * (-3) Redirected page to [[User:A]] 02:17:50 [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56824&oldid=56526 * A * (+115) /* Cheating Quines */ 02:18:16 [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56825&oldid=56824 * A * (+2) /* Smurf */ 02:27:35 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56826&oldid=56318 * A * (+68) /* Survey */ 02:34:06 -!- imode has joined. 02:49:01 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56827&oldid=56826 * Oerjan * (-2) /* Survey */ Use proper name 02:51:24 [[Turing tarpit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56828&oldid=56827 * Oerjan * (+54) /* Survey */ grm and only two symbols essential 02:57:54 [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56829 * A * (+135) Created page with "is a very funny esolang. [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:Language list]] [[Category:Joke language list]] [[Category:CJK]]" 02:58:05 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56830&oldid=56829 * A * (-4) 02:58:17 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56831&oldid=56830 * A * (-27) 02:59:13 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56832&oldid=56831 * A * (+69) 03:04:11 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56833&oldid=56832 * A * (+284) 03:10:14 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56834&oldid=56833 * A * (+223) 03:10:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:14:20 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 03:18:05 [[Simple Smurf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56835 * A * (+2158) Created page with "If we limit the contents of Smurf strings to the same characters as the other instructions (which should have no effect on Turing-completeness) then it has three states (call..." 03:18:48 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56836&oldid=56835 * A * (-214) 03:19:01 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56837&oldid=56836 * A * (-4) 03:22:13 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56838&oldid=56837 * A * (-928) 03:22:26 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56839&oldid=56838 * A * (-255) 03:29:33 [[Sm]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56840 * A * (+1042) Created page with "Sm is an esolang based on [[Smu]], with comments removed. * () Push a string to the stack. The string is whatever is inside the parentheses, you can have nested parentheses bu..." 03:59:39 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:25:10 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:10:13 -!- Fogity_ has joined. 05:10:37 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 05:10:43 -!- FreeFull_ has joined. 05:11:26 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 05:12:31 -!- imode has joined. 05:15:16 -!- \oren\_ has joined. 05:16:28 -!- xa0 has quit (*.net *.split). 05:16:31 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split). 05:16:31 -!- \oren\ has quit (*.net *.split). 05:16:32 -!- zzo38 has quit (*.net *.split). 05:16:32 -!- FreeFull has quit (*.net *.split). 05:16:32 -!- shachaf has quit (*.net *.split). 05:16:32 -!- Fogity has quit (*.net *.split). 05:16:34 -!- lynn has quit (*.net *.split). 05:19:27 -!- Fogity_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:19:58 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf. 05:24:16 -!- Fogity has joined. 05:27:48 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 05:30:28 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 05:35:13 -!- xa0 has joined. 05:35:13 -!- lynn has joined. 05:35:34 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 05:42:15 -!- tromp has joined. 05:46:59 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:34:25 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 06:35:13 -!- imode has joined. 06:46:09 -!- fractal has joined. 07:28:48 -!- tromp has joined. 07:33:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:53:03 -!- tromp has joined. 08:06:06 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:06:54 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:21:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:25:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:25:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:25:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:31:08 -!- yaewa has joined. 08:32:31 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:33:23 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:52:11 hmm 08:52:22 I think I implemented pattern matching but there's now a bug :( 08:53:40 Oh no! 08:53:44 What sort of bug? 08:54:25 somehow one of the closures gets corrupted 09:20:57 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56841&oldid=56823 * A * (+41) 09:21:22 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56842&oldid=56841 * A * (+28) 09:27:18 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56843&oldid=32458 * A * (+132) 09:27:27 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56844&oldid=56843 * A * (+0) /* COmputational Class */ 09:30:01 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56845&oldid=56844 * A * (+76) Last but not least, check that 09:30:40 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56846&oldid=56845 * A * (-46) 09:31:19 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56847&oldid=56842 * A * (+69) 09:33:47 I think I found the cause 09:34:08 Oh? 09:34:20 (I am genuinely interested but not very insightful) 09:37:16 when executing a data constructor pattern match I forgot to focus on the fields of the closure I am scrutinizing 09:39:11 sadly that alone didn't fix it 09:42:40 r 09:53:33 ohhh 09:53:52 I enter the scrutinee 09:54:18 but my calling convention doesn't include the closure returning itself from its entry point 09:54:36 and so I lost the value I was scrutinizing 09:55:32 it works! 09:55:47 \o/ 09:56:38 mniip: what formalism or language is it you're implementing, and what's your implementation language? 09:56:50 CBN LC 09:57:06 a haskell compiler that outputs assembly 09:59:23 push/enter, g-machine, mmm. Oh it's been a while. 10:00:23 Which assembly? 10:01:04 int-e, mind, I decided to implement it "without looking" 10:01:17 i.e see how much stuff I can come up with without copyinh 10:03:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:04:04 Taneb, x86_64 10:04:24 :) 10:05:13 and thus I compiled a first hello world 10:05:32 it looks like this http://tcpst.net/pk7v 10:05:34 `? unlambda 10:05:35 ​``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci 10:07:07 mniip: neat! 10:07:51 mniip: are those boxed ints? 10:07:54 yes 10:08:36 -!- FreeFull_ has changed nick to FreeFull. 10:22:08 at least it's easy to add primops! 10:22:10 BINARY_FN(addInt)(struct Closure *a, struct Closure *b) { return make_int_closure(unpack_int_closure(a) + unpack_int_closure(b)); } 10:48:37 oh boy 10:48:40 what a bug 10:48:45 *(clos->data) = value; 10:48:57 should be *(size_t *)clos->data = value; 10:49:19 nice tabs 10:49:45 (somehow irssi displays these as inverted I-s) 11:04:57 boom, the list of prime numbers http://tcpst.net/lgbv 11:09:45 Neat! 11:10:36 my thing is even slightly better than GHC in some aspect! 11:10:40 I can do this: http://tcpst.net/4a4g.png 11:11:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:11:49 Neat 11:13:40 -!- yaewa has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 11:21:52 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:30:39 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:38:23 mniip: yeah ghc a) messes up the stack and b) doesn't have an actual control stack because it does a CPS transform so all calls become tail calls. 11:38:53 this isn't a call stack either mind 11:39:02 foldr doesn't call takeWhile 11:39:12 I wrote "control stack"? :P 11:40:22 I expect it's still a call stack of sorts... but a dynamic one imposed by lazy evaluation rather than a static one (as written in the source code) 11:51:20 as if the GHC runtime doesn't have an analogue? 12:07:50 -!- moei has joined. 12:10:20 -!- XorSwap has joined. 12:22:29 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:25:03 -!- XorSwap has joined. 12:42:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:55:09 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:08:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:11:39 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:17:37 -!- xa0 has joined. 14:02:07 -!- Lbry has joined. 14:03:34 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 14:03:44 mniip: congrats! 14:07:02 -!- Lbry has left. 14:08:47 mniip: can you parse type annotations? 14:09:53 no 14:09:57 there's no typechecker yet 14:10:09 also there's lot of technical debt 14:10:24 mniip: ah 14:10:35 so if you use incorrect types, your program might just do undefined behavior? 14:10:56 it will usually complain 14:11:11 "attempt to apply a constructor" 14:11:30 but yeah it might segfualt 14:11:50 if you pattern match a lambda against a datatype that has a non-nullary constructor at position zero 14:13:50 I was wondering if you could try to compile http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs with this. You'd not only have to remove type annotations, but also remove the instances, and replace the fac and the main functions to call the underlying non-generic functions instead of the methods 14:21:58 Luckily it doesn't even use the built-in list type 14:40:41 Yeah, that won't be trivial. 14:41:12 The fac function really cheats by using the haskell prelude deeply. 14:42:44 I'm calling product, which has to be changed to foldSomething mulBin; and I'm calling my own enumFromTo :: BinInteger -> BinInteger -> BinInteger method, which calls takeWhile and iterate. 14:43:06 Still, it should be possible to write those if you know a bit of haskell 14:43:37 and then the main function calls print, which you could change to (putStrLn . showBin) I think 14:50:18 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:51:25 -!- xa0 has joined. 15:03:10 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 15:15:01 wob_jonas, to add classes I'd need a typechecker 15:15:23 mniip: I said you should remove classes and instances from that code 15:15:24 to do inference and term elaboration 15:15:45 also funnily 15:15:47 they're not really needed, they're just an afterthought so that I can make the joke end with "fac n = product [1..n]" 15:15:50 my compiler doesn't use any StateT 15:16:24 which is a line from that Evolution of a Haskell Programmer joke, only it means a very different thing here because it uses a different type 15:16:41 but you don't need any of the instances or anything, or the BinInteger type 15:16:49 product . enumFromTo 1 15:17:10 I only like code that is pointless 15:18:32 mniip: yes, but look at the end of the joke in https://www.willamette.edu/~fruehr/haskell/evolution.html , above the explanations (search for "Tenured Professor" 15:18:43 yeah I've seen that page 15:18:56 ). it literally says "fac n = product [1..n]" which is the line I wanted to reuse 15:19:16 you don't need any of that 15:20:44 I am the proud author of https://github.com/AbstractBeliefs/BadBuzz/blob/master/Haskell/mniip.hs 15:20:59 -!- atslash has joined. 15:21:12 mniip: oh god, he got you writing them too 15:21:29 it was an one-off 15:21:35 just compute with the unwrapped Bin class, which isn't an instance of anything (I did it this way so as to not accidentally an instance functino), write product as whatever fold function it should be, calling mulBin 15:22:29 then implement iterate and takeWhile from the prelude, and do whatever that enumFromTo method does but on unwrapped Bin stuff 15:22:36 y tho 15:22:39 I have boxed integers 15:23:50 (I'm fond of my reasonable-looking-but-cubic-time badbuzz) 15:23:51 -!- neanias has joined. 15:23:55 mniip: but this is a nontrivial code that would test lazy function calls and constructors and pattern matching nicely 15:23:55 it does like a million calls until it finishes 15:23:55 probably more like ten million 15:24:00 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:26:05 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 15:26:07 no wait, it must be much less than that since it's not unary but binary. probably only a few thousand calls 15:28:29 I really should consider infix operators 15:28:35 and equation parsing 15:29:05 mniip: you don't need infix operators to run my code 15:29:23 what do you mean by equation parsing? pattern matching in the function head? 15:29:30 yes 15:29:34 f True = x 15:29:37 f False = y 15:29:42 do you have let expressions yet? where clauses? 15:29:47 neither 15:29:59 you should probably start with let expressions 15:30:05 I have abstractions that can work as nonrecursive lets 15:31:18 yeah 15:34:35 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:44:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:48:13 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:52:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:56:53 ah, today's xkcd is online, and it's good 16:09:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:12:18 -!- tromp has joined. 16:31:58 -!- imode has joined. 16:32:52 -!- puck has changed nick to pucc. 16:47:05 -!- lldd_ has joined. 16:55:53 -!- pucc has changed nick to puck. 17:01:12 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 17:01:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:35:52 -!- tromp has joined. 17:43:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:54:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:01:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:18:29 -!- tromp has joined. 18:23:39 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56848&oldid=56846 * Ais523 * (-162) rv: this doesn't prove BF-equivalence because BF relies on the existence of nested loops for its TCness 18:30:43 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:34:43 -!- erkin has joined. 18:48:14 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 19:26:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:29:03 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 19:35:06 -!- lldd_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:50:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:31:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:34:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:35:35 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:44:28 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 21:23:59 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 21:25:14 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:47:45 -!- imode has joined. 22:04:23 -!- moei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:04:58 -!- moei has joined. 22:05:56 -!- shachaf_ has joined. 22:07:04 -!- shachaf has quit (Disconnected by services). 22:08:44 -!- shachaf_ has changed nick to shachaf. 22:11:54 [[RISBF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56849&oldid=40838 * BMO * (+358) 22:22:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:26:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:57:42 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:59:58 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:05:22 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 23:32:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:33:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:37:29 -!- rdococ has joined. 23:55:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 2018-07-19: 00:16:51 [[Stupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56850&oldid=56558 * Oerjan * (-27) rm nonexistent category 00:17:18 [[Stop]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56851&oldid=56564 * Oerjan * (-27) rm nonexistent category 00:19:32 [[EsoScript]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56852&oldid=56822 * Oerjan * (-4) fix category 00:19:50 [[Bit Stupid]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56853&oldid=56562 * Oerjan * (-27) rm nonexistent category 00:20:29 [[Array Changer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56854&oldid=56244 * Oerjan * (-27) fix categories 00:36:11 -!- imode has joined. 01:13:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 01:19:05 -!- XorSwap has joined. 01:23:05 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:50:16 -!- tromp has joined. 01:54:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:00:33 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 02:01:12 -!- Sgeo has joined. 02:06:08 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:34:20 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:40:09 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56855&oldid=56847 * A * (-69) 02:43:27 -!- tromp has joined. 02:47:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:49:27 [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56856&oldid=26665 * A * (+578) Unsure... 02:50:04 [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56857&oldid=56856 * A * (+7) Aw man...too messy! 02:53:23 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56858&oldid=56855 * A * (+15) 03:05:04 [[Talk:Logic]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56859 * A * (+162) Created page with "==Actually more shorter CAT program== I-| &-O 1-| That is a lot shorter. I think the CAT program in the page is user-unfriendly.--[[User:A]]11:04 19 Jul.2018" 03:05:55 [[Talk:Logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56860&oldid=56859 * A * (-5) Bad grammar. 03:34:16 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 03:34:16 -!- rdococ has joined. 04:29:31 -!- tromp has joined. 04:34:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:17:49 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:18:49 -!- MDude has joined. 05:23:30 -!- tromp has joined. 05:27:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:30:07 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56861&oldid=56721 * A * (+59) 05:30:32 -!- lynn_ has joined. 05:31:11 -!- lynn has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:31:14 -!- lynn_ has changed nick to lynn. 05:33:24 -!- lynn has changed nick to Guest55067. 06:01:52 -!- atslash has joined. 06:20:56 -!- tromp has joined. 06:25:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:26:03 -!- moei has joined. 07:10:32 -!- tromp has joined. 07:14:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:16:31 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:17:26 -!- aloril_ has joined. 07:24:03 -!- tromp has joined. 07:46:12 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:46:35 -!- APic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:38:43 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 08:39:55 -!- FreeFull has joined. 09:02:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:09:32 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:36:48 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:37:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Disconnected by services). 09:37:09 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 09:38:46 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:48:33 -!- SopaXT has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:13:30 [[Far]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56862&oldid=56530 * GibsonGeorge * (+60) 11:06:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:06:52 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:13:26 -!- lldd_ has joined. 11:33:12 -!- APic has joined. 12:21:56 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:06:08 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56863&oldid=56624 * Digital Hunter * (+41) /* S */ 13:24:00 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:24:16 -!- fungot has joined. 14:22:53 -!- aloril_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:37:23 -!- aloril has joined. 14:40:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:54:41 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:00:32 -!- aloril has joined. 15:33:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:34:31 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:38:19 -!- PinealGlandOptic has joined. 15:54:58 -!- PinealGlandOptic has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:55:43 -!- yurichev has joined. 16:09:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:20:42 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:23:15 -!- erkin has joined. 16:33:01 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:36:46 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:07:30 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:16:35 -!- deltab has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:34:09 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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Got SIGIRL, dying...). 21:09:25 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:10:15 -!- tromp has joined. 21:18:19 -!- subleq has joined. 21:18:45 Are there any formal languages that do not always halt, but have a decideable halting problem? 21:19:12 it's fairly easy to create one 21:19:27 but finite state automata with halt states are the most obvious example 21:19:39 any infinite loop in those is detectable, so you can just run them until they halt or enter an infinite loop 21:20:17 I think even with PDAs, all infinite loops are detectable, but I'm less sure on that 21:28:49 you'll see the same state with the same stack iff it doesn't terminate i think 21:29:23 not necessarily the same, but the stack will form a repeating pattern 21:29:31 hmm 21:29:40 so you can see that the loop only looks at, say, the top 10 stack elements before repeating 21:29:54 and after that point the top 10 elements are the same, even if they might be at a different position on the stack 21:30:01 right 21:32:40 are there any programming languages equivalent to a PDA? 21:32:50 plenty 21:33:34 like? 21:33:35 [[Esolang:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56866&oldid=56573 * Ais523 * (+35) /* Computational class */ add the PDA category to the list; we've been using it for years 21:33:46 here: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Push-down_automata 21:33:54 Befunge-93 is probably the best known 21:34:56 [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56867&oldid=53358 * Ais523 * (-33) not a PDA; the existence of the stack stack (together with a swap instruction) gives it more storage than that 21:36:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:36:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:37:14 are you aware of any restrictions on lambda calculus that could work? 21:38:19 it's a bit complex, but "all arguments to a recursive or indirectly recursive call must be constants" works 21:38:30 i guess just adding a loop primative 21:38:34 or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Splinter is pretty similar 21:38:42 to a strongly normalizing lambda calculus would work 21:39:14 typed lambda calculus + tail-recursion (the closest lambda calculus equivalent to a while loop) is probably TC, I'm not 100% sure on that though 21:47:53 i mean something like this https://github.com/edwinb/TypeDD-Samples/blob/master/Chapter11/RunIO.idr 21:50:33 actually I'm not certain that any given type in typed lambda calculus has infinitely many functions of that type… 21:51:19 what? 21:52:24 like, if there are only finitely many functions of each type 21:52:39 then typed lambda calculus + tail-recursion would be a finite state machine, as there's a limited amount of state in the system 21:54:53 come to think of it, i'm not sure this is an interesting question, unless decidable halting languages are in a different class than always halting 21:55:52 -!- MDude has joined. 21:57:10 well, you can normally define "provably not halting" as a form of halting all of its own 21:57:30 because if you can prove it doesn't halt, now you know the eventual fate of the program 21:57:34 hah! 21:57:42 from that point of view, decidably-halting and always-halting aren't very different 21:57:52 indeed 22:05:45 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56868&oldid=56787 * Fogity * (-1300) Now refers to the official documentation instead of trying to summarise the language details. 22:13:30 subleq: https://mathoverflow.net/questions/261934/is-simply-typed-lambda-calculus-with-fixed-point-combinator-turing-complete (first answer) is a fun one. 22:14:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:17:22 hmm, that paper is not publically available 22:17:26 subleq: oh yes, it's obviously TC if you add integers + basic operations on them (like increment, decrement, zero-test) 22:17:55 i don't get it, why aren't church numerals equivalent to primitive integers? 22:18:11 subleq: the types get increasingly complex as the numbers get larger 22:18:27 so they work fine in untyped lambda calculus, but in typed lambda calculus, any given type has a maximum Church number it can handle 22:18:35 oh 22:18:51 that is, unless you constrain the church numerals to acting on functions of a particular simplified type, but then you can't combine them with each other 22:21:27 hmm, I wonder if this invalidates the TCness proof for (=); Haskell 22:21:37 or if those characters are enough for TCness some other way 22:23:06 > let (===)==(====)=(===) in 0==3 22:23:08 0 22:24:16 so stlc with fix is not turing complete, but seemingly system f with fix is 22:25:42 Yeah, System F has proper Church numerals. (of type forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a) 22:26:35 right, I was just coming to that conclusion myself, Haskell isn't actually simply typed so it may work by using polymorphism 22:27:15 > let two : (x -> x) -> (x -> x) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:27:16 yeah but it's not System F, just Hindley-Milner... so (as far as I'm concerned) it needs some thought. 22:27:17 :1:20: error: parse error on input ‘->’ 22:27:28 > let two : (x -> x) -> (x -> x) = \ a b => a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:27:29 :1:20: error: parse error on input ‘->’ 22:27:40 > let two : ((x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:27:42 error: 22:27:42 Pattern syntax in expression context: x -> x 22:27:44 it's :: 22:27:48 > let two :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:27:50 error: 22:27:50 • You cannot bind scoped type variable ‘x’ 22:27:50 in a pattern binding signature 22:28:00 I don't actually know Haskell syntax 22:28:08 also I thought :: was lists 22:28:13 let a = 4::[] in a 22:28:16 > let a = 4::[] in a 22:28:18 error: 22:28:18 • Expecting one more argument to ‘[]’ 22:28:18 Expected a type, but ‘[]’ has kind ‘* -> *’ 22:28:25 apparently not 22:28:35 :t join(.) 22:28:36 > let two :: (forall x. (x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = \ a b -> a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:28:37 (a -> a) -> a -> a 22:28:38 error: 22:28:38 • Couldn't match expected type ‘forall x1. (x1 -> x1) -> x1 -> x1’ 22:28:38 with actual type ‘(t0 -> t0) -> t0 -> t0’ 22:28:51 > join(.)(join(.))succ 0 22:28:53 4 22:29:25 > let two a b :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x)) = a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:29:26 :1:5: error: Parse error in pattern: two 22:29:41 > let (two :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x))) a b = a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:29:43 :1:5: error: 22:29:43 Parse error in pattern: (two :: ((x -> x) -> (x -> x))) 22:30:02 hmm 22:30:09 > let two a b = a (a b) in two (+1) 0 22:30:11 2 22:30:18 it works just fine without the type annotation :-P 22:30:41 > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x. f (f x) in two two succ 0 22:30:43 :1:42: error: parse error on input ‘.’ 22:30:49 > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in two two succ 0 22:30:51 4 22:30:56 > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in two two two succ 0 22:30:58 16 22:31:24 you don't need the annotation 22:31:35 > let two = (\f x -> f (f x)) :: (x -> x) -> x -> x in two two two succ 0 22:31:38 16 22:31:43 subleq: I know. 22:32:01 I wonder whether there was a reason for disabling the pattern type signatures though... I forgot. 22:32:26 > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in let three :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; three = \f x -> f (f (f x)) in let eight :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; eight = two three in eight (+1) 0 22:32:28 9 22:32:35 bleh, got the arguments backwards 22:32:37 :) 22:32:41 > let two :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; two = \f x -> f (f x) in let three :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; three = \f x -> f (f (f x)) in let eight :: (x -> x) -> x -> x; eight = three two in eight (+1) 0 22:32:43 8 22:32:58 that's what I was checking for, if we could do arithmetic and yet still have the same types 22:33:01 8 == 9 for large values of 8 22:33:01 -!- spieglau has joined. 22:33:15 ais523: you can but only on constants, I think 22:33:30 > let f two = two two in f (\f x -> f (f x)) succ 0 22:33:32 error: 22:33:33 • Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t ~ t -> t1 22:33:33 • In the first argument of ‘two’, namely ‘two’ 22:33:34 I should have gone with 16, 2⁴ = 4² so it wouldn't matter if I had it backwards 22:34:11 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:34:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 22:34:29 > let f :: (forall x. (x -> x) -> x -> x) -> (x -> x) -> x -> x; f two = two two in f (\f x -> f (f x)) succ 0 22:34:31 4 22:34:54 right, seems like you need the explicit type annotation 22:35:05 which means that the subset of Haskell that uses only ( = ) ; probably isn't TC after all 22:35:37 it's probably TC if you add : 22:35:38 (it works with this higher order type, but that can't be written in the (=); fragment, and it's not Haskell 2010 22:36:22 something I learned while doing literature review for my PhD thesis is that it's been proven that type inference for system F is impossible in general 22:36:32 which is why languages in practice need the annotations 22:37:02 what can system f do that hindley milner can't? 22:37:26 subleq: it has polymorphic arguments 22:37:45 subleq: use the same argument twice (or more) with a different type for each use 22:37:57 oh, like rank-n types 22:38:03 hindley-milner lets you use the same argument multiple times in a lambda but it has to have the same type with each use 22:38:34 > let f :: (forall x. x -> x) -> ((), Bool); f g = (g (), g True) in f id 22:38:36 ((),True) 22:38:51 > let f g = (g (), g True) in f id 22:38:53 error: 22:38:53 • Couldn't match expected type ‘()’ with actual type ‘Bool’ 22:38:53 • In the first argument of ‘g’, namely ‘True’ 22:39:02 this basic idea (with respect to lambda calculi in general, not hindley-milner in particular) is key to the main result of my thesis, which invalidated several years' worth of work in a number of different research projects (including my own) 22:39:08 by showing that what they were aiming for was impossible :_D 22:39:11 * :-D 22:39:23 (that's one of the simplest examples of the difference) 22:46:43 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 22:51:04 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:07:55 I have received the new issue of 2600 today. 23:15:58 vote: 23:16:08 1. going to bed and gettting some healthy sleep 23:16:19 2. ordering a pizza and staying up late 23:16:40 also i'm on a no carb diet so the pizza is like super taboo 23:59:42 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.). 2018-07-20: 00:00:56 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 00:01:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:04:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:07:00 -!- danieljabailey has quit (*.net *.split). 00:07:00 -!- int-e has quit (*.net *.split). 00:07:02 -!- GeekDude has quit (*.net *.split). 00:07:02 -!- quintopia has quit (*.net *.split). 00:07:03 -!- alercah has quit (*.net *.split). 00:07:03 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 00:10:31 -!- ProofTechnique[m has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:10:40 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 00:13:28 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:14:07 -!- zzo38 has joined. 00:15:42 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:15:42 -!- int-e has joined. 00:15:42 -!- GeekDude has joined. 00:15:42 -!- quintopia has joined. 00:15:42 -!- alercah has joined. 00:15:42 -!- FireFly has joined. 00:19:32 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:36:09 -!- spieglau has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:37:01 -!- spiegelau has joined. 00:51:01 -!- ProofTechnique[m has joined. 00:57:15 -!- spiegelau has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:58:35 -!- yurichev has joined. 01:06:12 -!- copumpkin[m] has joined. 01:38:59 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 615 seconds). 02:33:52 -!- Cale has joined. 02:41:13 -!- imode has joined. 03:10:05 [[Talk:Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56869&oldid=50544 * A * (+105) /* Smurf instruction minimalisation */ 03:11:04 [[Talk:Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56870&oldid=56869 * A * (+36) /* Smurf instruction minimalisation */ 03:13:31 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:14:42 -!- Cale has joined. 03:30:36 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56871&oldid=56839 * A * (-430) 03:33:31 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56872&oldid=56871 * A * (+107) 03:36:37 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:36:39 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56873&oldid=56872 * A * (+232) 03:39:32 -!- Cale has joined. 03:43:32 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56874&oldid=56873 * A * (-60) 04:22:34 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:24:34 -!- aloril has joined. 04:25:22 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:25:39 -!- aloril has joined. 05:01:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:07:33 -!- mniip has joined. 05:36:22 -!- tromp has joined. 05:40:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:07:45 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:08:47 -!- Cale has joined. 06:10:29 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:29:33 -!- tromp has joined. 06:34:12 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:13:07 -!- tromp has joined. 07:30:04 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:32:26 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:35:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:45:00 [[Shorten your Brainfuck code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56875&oldid=56861 * Rdebath * (+270) /* Big width loops */ 07:46:21 -!- Cale has joined. 07:56:15 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:01:01 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Client Quit). 08:08:53 A variant of the BackFlip arrows: instead of pointing where you came from, it now points to the direction you were initially moving in when you hit it. Also add a symbol that always rebounds (but there are no flipping or fixed mirrors). This is the variant I implemented in ZZT. (The variant arrows are stat waters, and the symbol that always rebounds is a ricochet.) 08:10:23 Do you know that? 08:25:11 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:27:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:20:05 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:24:39 -!- atslash has joined. 09:42:51 -!- copumpkin[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:43:10 -!- ProofTechnique[m has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:49:55 -!- ProofTechnique[m has joined. 09:56:33 1532039782 [01:36:22] something I learned while doing literature review for my PhD thesis is that it's been proven that type inference for system F is impossible in general 09:56:48 but is constraint solving in presence of QuantifiedConstraints possible? 09:58:27 I have serious doubts about that 09:58:39 it looks waaay too close to intuitionistic FOL 10:07:04 -!- copumpkin[m] has joined. 10:21:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:21:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:36:44 -!- tromp has joined. 10:57:44 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:19:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:20:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:50:49 -!- atslash has joined. 12:19:55 -!- user24 has joined. 12:19:57 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:20:30 -!- user24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:24:15 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:25:30 -!- imode has joined. 12:26:16 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 13:30:27 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:31:33 -!- atslash has joined. 13:34:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:45:43 -!- Guest55067 has changed nick to lynn. 13:45:51 -!- lynn has quit (Changing host). 13:45:51 -!- lynn has joined. 13:45:51 -!- lynn has quit (Changing host). 13:45:51 -!- lynn has joined. 13:57:56 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international tarpit for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 13:59:05 Why lemons? <-- they're limes actually hth 14:03:28 `learn The password of the month will be short-lived. 14:03:30 Relearned 'password': The password of the month will be short-lived. 14:04:01 -!- SopaXT has joined. 14:06:20 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:06:31 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:32:16 wat 14:32:26 `dowg password 14:32:28 11584:2018-07-20 learn The password of the month will be short-lived. \ 11570:2018-06-03 learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia \ 11544:2018-05-05 learn The password of the month is . \ 11509:2018-04-14 slwd password//s,.$,, \ 11508:2018-04-14 learn The password of the month is way too late to fool anyone. \ 11444:2018-03-07 learn The password of 14:32:32 curses 14:37:54 [[Log]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56876 * A * (+365) Created page with "'''Logic''' by [[User:A]] is an extremely simple esolang based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOR_logic NOR logic]. ==Syntax== The only available commands are: ! That is N..." 14:38:14 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56877&oldid=56876 * A * (+12) 14:38:40 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56878&oldid=56877 * A * (+4) 14:39:35 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56879&oldid=56878 * A * (+28) 14:53:15 zzo38: that backflip variant wouldn't be reversible 15:24:29 https://irclog.perlgeek.de/ :/ 15:28:21 next predicted shutdown: wayback hth 15:34:05 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 15:35:55 -!- atslash has joined. 15:40:34 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:41:08 -!- SopaXT has joined. 15:45:35 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:46:03 -!- SopaXT has joined. 15:46:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 16:00:11 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:00:25 -!- atslash has joined. 16:05:30 -!- joast has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:24:34 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 16:31:29 -!- joast has joined. 16:34:14 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:39:31 -!- tromp has joined. 17:01:25 oerjan: Yes, I thought it might be not reversible, but the specific pattern I tried eventually returns to its initial state. 17:01:56 (Anyways I wasn't concerned if it is reversible or not, when doing it; it is just something I did with ZZT) 17:03:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:14:00 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:14:24 -!- tromp has joined. 17:14:28 -!- rdococ has joined. 18:12:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:15:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:28:06 -!- imode has joined. 18:28:41 -!- SopaXT has joined. 18:31:32 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:38:04 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:52:35 -!- etisdew has joined. 19:17:56 -!- atslash has joined. 19:20:39 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:29:03 oerjan: i guess this was the last olist 19:29:29 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:29:40 shachaf: no, there's still one and a half book's worth left 19:30:40 the adventures of durkon as he destroys the world 19:31:23 I guess that lich is still around. What happened with that? 19:31:33 Were those folks still looking through the doors? 19:35:25 yes, they're getting some experience points and treasure 19:36:47 and some people on the forum think that because of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html , the Gate is actually in Kragor's statue, not anywhere in the holes 19:37:28 because Kragor died at the rift, and why else would they make a statue for a man whose story they want everyone to forget 19:38:56 seems like a stretch 19:39:50 http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html shows where Kragor's statue is located in relation to Serini's dungeon, in case you forgot 20:17:10 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:44:58 -!- yurichev has quit (Quit: leaving). 21:09:43 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:15:03 <\oren\_> https://imgur.com/a/HkBv3Gk 21:16:52 -!- copumpkin[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:17:12 -!- ProofTechnique[m has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:58:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:06:10 -!- copumpkin[m] has joined. 22:16:35 -!- gurmble has joined. 22:20:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:23:25 -!- ProofTechnique[m has joined. 22:24:23 -!- grumble has quit (Ping timeout: 610 seconds). 22:25:11 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:25:22 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 22:47:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:50:27 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:04:13 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:31:30 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:42:52 -!- gurmble has joined. 23:44:45 -!- grumble has quit (Disconnected by services). 23:44:47 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 23:45:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2018-07-21: 00:05:47 -!- erkin has joined. 00:11:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:30:50 oerjan: i guess this was the last olist <-- that would be a bit narratively inelegant. 00:31:12 did the happy ending prophecy come true already with that one comic? 00:31:46 i guess belkar still needs to draw his last breath 00:31:54 which given how things are going will probably be p. soon 00:32:15 hm probably not. if only because otherwise, the oracle wouldn't have added "at least for you". 00:32:37 after all, several others got happy endings in the illusion. 00:33:04 also, i totally also thought of that kragor's statue thing. 00:33:06 Well, only a few people. 00:33:20 I guess it's implied that some other members of the olist of the stick don't get happy endings. 00:33:44 even belkar got one then. 00:48:30 -!- LKoen has joined. 00:53:09 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:15:50 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:19:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:43:40 Addicted to Raymond Chen's The Old New Thing blog 01:44:40 https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/ 02:03:32 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56880&oldid=56879 * A * (+36) 02:10:53 [[FerNORo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56881 * A * (+5147) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''ferNANDo''' is an esoteric programming language by [[User:A]]. It's based on [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOR_logic NOR-logic] and uses no other syntax-elem..." 02:38:32 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 02:38:56 -!- imode has joined. 02:48:38 -!- LKoen has joined. 02:49:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:49:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 02:54:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:19:56 [[FerNORo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56882&oldid=56881 * A * (-370) /* Other logic gates */ 03:20:09 [[FerNORo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56883&oldid=56882 * A * (-916) /* Arithmetic circuits */ 03:21:52 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56884&oldid=56880 * A * (-28) 03:24:59 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56885&oldid=56884 * A * (+71) /* Example(XOR) */ 03:27:23 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56886&oldid=56885 * A * (+51) 03:31:22 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 03:34:03 [[Talk:Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56887&oldid=56870 * A * (+93) ^_-^ That is okay!!! 03:40:54 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56888&oldid=56886 * A * (+173) 03:45:17 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56889&oldid=56888 * A * (+139) /* NOT */ 03:52:32 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56890&oldid=56889 * A * (-34) 03:54:13 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56891&oldid=56890 * A * (+34) /* Syntax */ 03:54:25 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56892&oldid=56891 * A * (-39) /* See Also */ 03:57:12 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56893&oldid=56892 * A * (+79) /* See Also */ 04:04:47 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56894&oldid=56588 * A * (+317) /* Simplification */ 04:08:49 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56895&oldid=56894 * A * (+19) Mispelled word. 04:11:52 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:20:45 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56896&oldid=56848 * Oerjan * (+2831) Another try 04:21:39 whee 04:21:57 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:27:57 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:28:02 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56897&oldid=56893 * A * (+12) /* NOT */ 04:31:18 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56898&oldid=56897 * A * (-53) 04:31:45 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56899&oldid=56898 * A * (+27) 04:37:29 -!- imode has joined. 04:38:52 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: []). 04:39:52 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56900&oldid=56899 * A * (+6) /* Syntax */ 04:40:09 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56901&oldid=56900 * A * (+20) /* Syntax */ 04:40:28 Have you ever heard of any mahjong variant where kan switches the direction of play? 04:43:13 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56902&oldid=56901 * A * (+241) /* XOR */ 04:43:29 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56903&oldid=56902 * A * (+3) /* XOR */ 04:44:47 -!- sprocklem has joined. 04:46:00 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56904&oldid=56903 * A * (+132) 04:46:54 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56905&oldid=56904 * A * (+32) /* XOR */ 04:48:56 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56906&oldid=56905 * A * (+165) /* XOR */ 04:49:27 -!- sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 04:49:47 -!- sprocklem has joined. 04:55:24 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56907&oldid=56906 * A * (-10) /* See Also */ 04:59:51 -!- etisdew has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:03:42 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56908&oldid=56907 * A * (-15) 05:04:23 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56909&oldid=56908 * A * (-3) /* See Also */ 05:13:17 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:14:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:22:04 [[Log++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56910 * A * (+390) Created page with "It is [[Log]], but with this extension: (.) That is [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_logic NAND]. Change the operation into the answer after the NAND operation. ==NOT==..." 05:42:08 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56911&oldid=56909 * A * (+20) /* NOT */ 05:45:40 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56912&oldid=56911 * A * (+29) 05:46:52 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56913&oldid=56912 * A * (+22) 05:50:11 [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56914&oldid=56910 * A * (+249) 05:50:27 [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56915&oldid=56914 * A * (+0) 05:52:35 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56916&oldid=56913 * A * (-58) 06:10:15 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56917&oldid=56916 * A * (+158) 06:17:12 just wait until Asdf hears about all these edits 06:24:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:46:20 fizzie: Any reason stalker mode doesn't have anchors? 06:46:49 Well, I assume the reason is that they make a broken link eventually. 06:47:45 But they could still be useful before then. 07:02:09 -!- tromp has joined. 07:02:59 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:03:12 -!- tromp has joined. 07:05:52 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:07:22 -!- etisdew has joined. 07:10:10 -!- Aearnus has joined. 07:10:37 i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft 07:12:26 -!- Aearnus has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:45:37 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:29:34 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56918&oldid=56917 * A * (-552) 08:44:36 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:53:47 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56919&oldid=56895 * A * (-46) /* Readability */ 09:43:45 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:44:17 -!- tromp has joined. 09:46:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:47:48 @tell shachaf I guess, it's just that the stalker mode already has links to the corresponding non-stalker lines (so that when you paste a link to somebody it's automatically a permalink) so even if it had anchors, you'd have to use them "manually". 09:47:48 Consider it noted. 09:48:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:49:13 Oh, I didn't notice those were links. 09:49:21 @messages-loud 09:49:21 fizzie said 1m 33s ago: I guess, it's just that the stalker mode already has links to the corresponding non-stalker lines (so that when you paste a link to somebody it's automatically a permalink) 09:49:21 so even if it had anchors, you'd have to use them "manually". 09:49:52 (It's kind of late in where I'd guess you are, that's why the @tell.) 09:50:00 Oh, I'm coming to MTV again next month. 09:50:18 I always use anchors "manually". 09:50:31 I guess it should've occurred to me that there'd be a matching link. 09:51:17 Also I wish you could make an anchor to something without an explicit id attribute in the HTML because people often don't put them in. 09:51:54 `? mtv 09:51:55 mtv? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:52:32 MTV is short for "mainostelevisio", lit. "advertisement TV", a Finnish commercial ad-funded TV channel. 09:52:43 Although that's not where I'm going. 10:18:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:19:13 -!- tromp has joined. 10:22:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:23:49 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:37:29 -!- tromp has joined. 10:42:02 -!- etisdew has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:02:06 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:10:16 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:11:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:15:00 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 11:15:16 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 11:15:16 -!- rdococ has joined. 11:19:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:23:55 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56920&oldid=56918 * A * (-14) 11:25:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:28:16 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56921&oldid=56920 * A * (-7) 11:28:53 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56922&oldid=56921 * A * (+14) 11:32:00 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56923&oldid=56922 * A * (+0) 11:33:48 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56924&oldid=56923 * A * (+8) 11:33:58 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56925&oldid=56924 * A * (-2) 11:34:32 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56926&oldid=56925 * A * (+2) 11:34:45 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56927&oldid=56926 * A * (+1) 11:35:01 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56928&oldid=56927 * A * (-9) 11:41:16 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56929&oldid=56928 * A * (-65) 12:44:25 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56930&oldid=56929 * A * (-48) 12:46:11 [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56931&oldid=56915 * A * (-38) /* XNOR */ 12:46:59 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56932&oldid=56930 * A * (+33) 12:47:38 [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56933&oldid=56931 * A * (+31) 12:49:21 [[Log++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56934&oldid=56933 * A * (-10) /* See also */ 12:49:33 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56935&oldid=56932 * A * (-10) /* See also */ 12:51:01 -!- imode has joined. 12:53:45 -!- paul2520 has joined. 12:53:45 -!- paul2520 has quit (Changing host). 12:53:45 -!- paul2520 has joined. 12:54:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:55:50 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:16:31 -!- atslash has joined. 13:26:14 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:31:33 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 13:39:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:48:23 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:05:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:15:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:18:31 -!- atslash has joined. 14:19:41 `addquote i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft 14:19:42 1325) i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft 14:20:06 i think this counts as an actually on-topic quote 14:22:25 I found those "Log" messages quite irritiating until I realized that it was a page name. 14:40:13 :P 14:42:40 Yes, sometimes I wanted also an anchor to something without an explicit ID in a HTML document. One thing to do is to add # and stuff onto the URL anyways, even though it doesn't work. Another thing is to tell whoever wrote them to fix it. 14:57:20 -!- moony has changed nick to somewhatmoony. 15:07:04 -!- MDude has joined. 15:26:28 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 15:40:37 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:24:58 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:50:17 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:38:14 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56936&oldid=56896 * Oerjan * (+2931) Expand 22 register explanation 17:38:34 more whee 17:38:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:48:21 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:01:04 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:09:51 -!- variable has joined. 18:16:23 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:17:39 shachaf: The Giant's words make it clear that Elan's prophecy by the Oracle is about the ending of the story, so it can't come true before: www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?479555&p=23237502&viewfull=1#post23237502 18:18:17 shachaf: Elan has some fourth-wall-breaking, so he knows when the story's *ending* is. 18:21:47 and the Oracle definitely has fourth-wall knowledge too, so he can answer Elan 18:22:46 I have mentioned before a variant of BackFlip with ZZT. I am not so sure it is not reversible. Can't you reverse all of the arrows in the program as well as the direction of the program execution? 18:23:36 -!- etisdew has joined. 18:44:58 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56937&oldid=56919 * Ais523 * (+228) /* Readability */ too subjective 18:51:52 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 2n8asm * New user account 19:03:46 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:04:12 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 19:05:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:07:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:30:46 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:32:07 -!- tromp has joined. 19:36:21 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56938&oldid=56785 * 2n8asm * (+233) /* Introductions */ 19:37:12 [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * 2n8asm * uploaded "[[File:.png]]" 19:42:13 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 19:42:23 huh, useless, uncompressed png? 19:43:20 int-e: it's not useless. you can use it as a temporary exchange format for lossless images with 16-bit per channel deep rgba that many programs will understand 19:43:54 wob_jonas: I mean https://esolangs.org/wiki/File:%E8%89%B9.png 19:44:37 maybe it's a program for an esolang that only reads uncompressed pngs? 19:46:02 seriously doubt it. it's not even black and white, it has some grey from antialiasing 19:46:12 heh 19:46:35 and it's just a rendition of the glyph in the file name, 艹. 19:46:53 no, it's a descriptive page name for the image 19:57:48 For a temporary exchange format I prefer farbfeld (and only in pipes, not in files) 19:59:19 [[CFUCK]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56940 * 2n8asm * (+211) CFUCK is a general-purpose programming language. 20:04:26 [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56941&oldid=56940 * 2n8asm * (+193) 20:06:00 [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56942&oldid=56941 * 2n8asm * (+7) 20:06:34 I think it is not a program for an esolang that only reads uncompressed pngs; you can see what [[CFUCK]] article mentioned, it is difference from that. 20:08:03 [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56943&oldid=56942 * 2n8asm * (-3) 20:13:35 [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Int-e * uploaded a new version of "[[File:.png]]": (compress png) 20:39:08 -!- laerling has joined. 21:17:06 -!- MDead has joined. 21:19:20 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:19:21 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 21:35:26 -!- Vorpal has joined. 21:35:26 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 21:35:26 -!- Vorpal has joined. 21:36:59 hi 21:39:01 Esolang idea: Language based on bad pop interpretation of quantum physics, e.g. entanglement allows communication and what not 21:48:22 Vorpal: there are already multiple esolangs based on that I think, and even one supposedly non-eso language 21:48:42 usually on the interpretation that quantum entanglement lets you try all possibilities at the same time 21:49:15 just search for "quantum", you'll probably find mostly such languages 21:55:37 wob_jonas: oh, okay 22:30:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:46:11 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:01:52 -!- tromp has joined. 23:06:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:10:19 -!- laerling has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:55:22 -!- tromp has joined. 2018-07-22: 00:00:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:05:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:06:09 -!- LKoen has joined. 00:08:48 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:11:14 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:15:58 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:18:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:48:40 -!- tromp has joined. 00:53:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:58:36 -!- imode has joined. 01:00:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:11:19 zzo38: oh hm i realized i probably misunderstood your variant, so it's reversible anyhow. 01:14:50 `unidecode 艹 01:14:51 ​[U+8279 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8279] 01:59:52 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56945&oldid=56936 * Oerjan * (+303) Some clarifications and adjustments 02:06:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 02:11:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:17:44 [[rjan Johansen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56946&oldid=35684 * Oerjan * (+43) Add Home Row 02:34:36 -!- tromp has joined. 02:38:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 03:28:25 -!- tromp has joined. 03:32:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:55:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:07:07 -!- LKoen has joined. 04:07:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:07:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 04:12:03 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:12:36 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jelly Doughnut * New user account 04:20:11 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:21:19 -!- tromp has joined. 04:21:39 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56947&oldid=56938 * Jelly Doughnut * (+106) 04:25:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:56:14 [[CFUCK]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56948&oldid=56943 * 2n8asm * (+51) 04:58:43 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56949&oldid=56935 * A * (+293) 05:14:31 -!- tromp has joined. 05:18:58 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:36:14 -!- tromp has joined. 05:41:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:46:30 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56950&oldid=56949 * A * (-22) /* NOT */ 05:56:25 [[Log]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56951&oldid=56950 * A * (-82) 06:25:52 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:35:02 -!- Sgeo has joined. 06:38:10 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:45:37 [[ZZT-Flip]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56952 * Zzo38 * (+1166) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2018]] [[Category:Two-dimensional languages]] [[Category:Reversible computing]] [[Category:Self-modifying]] [[Category:Implemented]] ZZT-F..." 06:45:52 OK, there now I wrote it on esolang wiki. 06:47:03 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:48:25 [[Nop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56953&oldid=19004 * Zzo38 * (-3) Internal link correction 07:00:58 -!- tromp has joined. 07:01:55 -!- etisdew has quit (Quit: Leaving). 07:14:09 -!- variable has joined. 07:34:12 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:37:16 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:44:39 -!- trout has joined. 07:46:46 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:47:38 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:48:06 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:48:33 -!- trout has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:57:11 -!- SopaXT has joined. 08:00:27 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:50:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 09:41:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:54:39 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56954&oldid=56670 * A * (+187) /* LOLCODE */ 10:59:57 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56955&oldid=56954 * A * (+147) /* Log */ 11:02:28 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56956&oldid=56955 * A * (+96) /* Log */ 11:08:50 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 11:23:24 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:33:06 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56957&oldid=56937 * A * (+133) /* Readability */ 11:36:55 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56958&oldid=56957 * A * (+48) /* Looks like */ 11:49:54 [[Simple Smurf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56959&oldid=56874 * A * (-29) 12:46:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:59:44 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:00:12 -!- SopaXT has joined. 13:03:14 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:03:44 -!- SopaXT has joined. 13:04:51 -!- SopaXT has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 13:05:25 -!- SopaXT has joined. 13:26:50 -!- tromp has joined. 13:31:49 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:00:51 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:03:27 -!- SopaXT has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:54:36 -!- tromp has joined. 14:59:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:24:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:43:39 [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56960&oldid=56958 * Oerjan * (+309) /* Looks like */ Nah 15:55:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:56:15 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 16:02:42 -!- SopaXT has joined. 16:04:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:13:22 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56961&oldid=56956 * Oerjan * (+3) The sortings will continue until alphabetization improves 16:14:37 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56962&oldid=56961 * Oerjan * (+0) Until it improves, I said! 16:31:27 it appears that oerjan doesn't like inversions 16:37:07 what inversions 16:40:29 -!- tromp has joined. 16:45:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:54:09 oerjan: the ones in non-identity permutations. 17:03:53 -!- SopaXT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:04:13 -!- SopaXT has joined. 17:17:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:31:20 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 17:34:09 -!- tromp has joined. 17:39:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:42:48 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 17:42:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:52:47 -!- etisdew has joined. 18:03:34 Ah, Sudoku isn't just similar to a graph coloring problem, it *is* a graph coloring problem (with some pre-colored vertices) 18:13:15 heh, that makes.. a lot of sense 18:16:32 yep 18:16:50 very cliquey 18:18:27 Yes, that look like correct to me 18:30:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:45:49 -!- SopaXT has joined. 18:47:31 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:48:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:05:09 -!- erkin has joined. 19:12:18 -!- imode has joined. 19:20:13 -!- tromp has joined. 19:21:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:22:11 -!- tromp has joined. 19:37:17 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:55:38 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:44 -!- tromp has joined. 21:27:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:46:07 A new GameBoy game has been made recently called "Into The Blue". The panels come from the bottom and if it reaches the top then you lose. If three or more same panels in a line then they are removed and everything is fall down. The cursor switches places with adjacent panels; you cannot move the cursor into empty spaces, and the cursor falls same like panels do. 21:46:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:04:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:49:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stefvanschie * New user account 22:56:37 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56963&oldid=56947 * Stefvanschie * (+278) /* Introductions */ 22:56:44 [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56964&oldid=35594 * Stefvanschie * (+144) Make V command clearer 23:00:03 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in). 23:00:19 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:49:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2018-07-23: 00:06:52 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:14:52 -!- tromp has joined. 00:19:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:37:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:01:43 -!- tromp has joined. 02:06:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 02:54:46 -!- tromp has joined. 02:59:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:35:11 -!- tromp has joined. 04:01:12 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:04:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:17:49 -!- Suika has joined. 04:20:35 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:22:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:30:54 -!- tromp has joined. 04:35:19 -!- Suika has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 04:35:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:07:43 -!- tromp has joined. 05:12:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:30:05 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:33:04 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:48:11 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:18:46 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:19:17 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:28:03 [[Nandarin]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56965&oldid=37186 * Ais523 * (+430) computational class: FSM-complete 06:42:46 [[Eniuq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56966&oldid=33086 * Ais523 * (+1091) it's TC 06:46:46 -!- variable has joined. 06:53:53 -!- tromp has joined. 06:57:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:58:12 `smlist 473 06:58:13 smlist 473: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 07:19:27 -!- trout has joined. 07:21:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:25:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GDavid * New user account 07:30:00 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:30:31 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:40:28 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56967&oldid=56963 * GDavid * (+146) /* Introductions */ 07:48:00 -!- tromp has joined. 07:51:40 -!- variable has joined. 07:52:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 07:54:18 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:01:07 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56968&oldid=56662 * GDavid * (+525) 08:05:40 -!- tromp has joined. 08:06:08 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:08:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:08:56 -!- tromp has joined. 08:12:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:24:20 -!- trout has joined. 08:26:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:26:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:26:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:26:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:31:22 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:47:44 -!- J_Arcane has quit. 08:56:06 -!- variable has joined. 08:59:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:04:36 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:04:40 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:05:53 -!- mendax has joined. 09:14:22 -!- mendax has quit. 09:28:05 -!- trout has joined. 09:30:57 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:53:13 -!- mendax has joined. 09:53:13 -!- mendax has quit (Changing host). 09:53:13 -!- mendax has joined. 09:53:28 -!- mendax has left. 09:59:12 -!- variable has joined. 10:02:10 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:30:07 -!- trout has joined. 10:34:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:43:41 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:01:33 -!- variable has joined. 11:05:11 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:33:21 -!- trout has joined. 11:36:54 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:04:47 -!- variable has joined. 12:08:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:09:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 12:15:34 -!- copumpkin has joined. 12:35:57 -!- trout has joined. 12:39:22 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:53:42 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:05:15 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:07:10 -!- variable has joined. 13:07:49 -!- SopaXT has joined. 13:10:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:32:01 https://github.com/dylanbeattie/rockstar 13:37:46 wonderful 13:39:12 -!- trout has joined. 13:41:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:01:27 [[SequenceScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56969 * A * (+649) Created page with "==50+60(Save in [00])== 00=32 01=3C 02=[00] 03=[01] 02+[03] 00=[02] x=y Set x(which is a place in the internal storage, x is a hex number) into y(represents a place of..." 14:03:41 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56970&oldid=56858 * A * (+104) 14:10:37 -!- variable has joined. 14:11:24 -!- SopaXT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:13:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:14:38 [[FizzBuzz]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56971 * A * (+354) A stub...Help me by extending it! 14:22:29 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:25:14 [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56972&oldid=52353 * A * (+146) 14:25:47 [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56973&oldid=56972 * A * (+3) 14:26:19 [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56974&oldid=56973 * A * (+1) 14:26:38 [[Hello]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56975&oldid=56974 * A * (+2) 14:26:56 -!- SopaXT has joined. 14:27:15 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:27:33 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56976&oldid=56970 * A * (+33) 14:28:23 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:28:49 -!- SopaXT has joined. 14:30:03 -!- SopaXT has quit (Max SendQ exceeded). 14:31:43 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:40:13 [[HQ9+]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56977&oldid=54515 * A * (+850) 14:40:28 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56978&oldid=56976 * A * (+9) 14:41:09 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:41:46 -!- trout has joined. 14:44:30 [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56979&oldid=52355 * A * (+298) 14:44:42 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56980&oldid=56978 * A * (+12) 14:45:20 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:47:15 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:50:33 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:53:41 -!- SopaXT has joined. 14:55:00 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:55:29 -!- SopaAlt has joined. 14:58:05 -!- SopaXT has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:58:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:58:28 -!- SopaAlt has quit (Client Quit). 15:12:52 -!- variable has joined. 15:16:03 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:16:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:16:48 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:19:21 -!- zgrepc has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:19:22 -!- zemhill____ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:19:28 -!- zemhill____ has joined. 15:19:55 -!- ocharles_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:20:18 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 15:20:29 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:20:29 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:21:02 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:21:17 -!- fungot has joined. 15:21:54 -!- zgrepc has joined. 15:21:58 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 15:22:28 -!- sprocklem has joined. 15:23:07 -!- zgrepc has quit (Changing host). 15:23:07 -!- zgrepc has joined. 15:23:16 -!- ocharles_ has joined. 15:24:47 -!- sprocklem has changed nick to Guest49508. 15:24:54 -!- ocharles_ has changed nick to ocharles. 15:25:34 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 15:26:03 -!- ocharles has quit (Changing host). 15:26:03 -!- ocharles has joined. 15:37:45 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56981&oldid=56834 * A * (+4) 15:47:50 [[Hello++++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56982&oldid=52356 * A * (+87) 15:53:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:07:49 -!- max1 has joined. 16:26:24 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56983&oldid=56868 * Fogity * (+623) /* Example programs */ Added a fizzbuzz program. 16:37:36 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:16:58 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 17:43:35 -!- etisdew has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:43:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:01:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:29:45 -!- SopaXT has joined. 18:31:48 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:32:00 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:33:18 -!- etisdew has joined. 18:37:40 -!- imode has joined. 18:40:09 I just tried to explain the esolang I'm busy with to my parents 18:40:12 It did not go well 18:40:30 How do you explain your esolangs to normal people?? 18:42:48 -!- tromp has joined. 18:47:32 max1: you don't. that's not what esolangs are for. 18:47:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:56:22 -!- tromp has joined. 18:57:49 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:27:20 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:32:30 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 19:54:06 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:04:22 max1: have they ever tried to walk on only tiles of a specific color on a patterned floor? 20:04:30 that actually probably stops working at a certain age 20:12:48 `olist 1129 20:12:48 olist 1129: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 20:22:35 wob_jonas: but I want to share the love lol :'''( 20:23:38 subleq: heyy I like that idea 20:33:05 -!- erkin has joined. 21:10:32 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:15:46 -!- max1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:50:21 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 21:56:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:59:12 -!- imode has joined. 22:00:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 22:05:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:08:33 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:14:42 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:41:00 -!- impomatic has joined. 22:51:36 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:13:48 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:15:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:17:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:23:13 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56984&oldid=56981 * Oerjan * (-4) Undo revision 56981 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) No. 23:24:59 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Foobar!]]": Brokenly half-edited, abandoned derivative 23:26:05 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56985&oldid=56789 * Oerjan * (-14) rm deleted page 23:33:33 stupid humid weather 23:33:39 @metar ENVA 23:33:39 ENVA 232250Z 14005KT 9999 FEW098 15/13 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 12006KT 23:49:05 [[Eniuq]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56986&oldid=56966 * Oerjan * (+0) There is no hyphen. 2018-07-24: 00:03:40 [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56987&oldid=56964 * Stefvanschie * (+105) Add java interpreter 00:06:25 [[A0A0]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56988&oldid=56987 * Stefvanschie * (+7) Edit author name 00:44:54 -!- etisdew has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:08:23 -!- imode has joined. 01:38:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:39:40 @messages? 01:39:41 Sorry, no messages today. 01:46:32 [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56989&oldid=56857 * A * (+0) Hmm...Typo 01:47:23 − [[Category:Turing[DEL:-:DEL] + [[Category:Turing[INS: :INS]complete]] 01:47:37 * ais523 is reading the wiki in a terminal, for no obvious reason 01:48:02 I wonder why and aren't rendered using strikethrough and underline, like normal? those formats both exist in terminals 01:48:15 although I guess w3m renders as underline rather than italic 01:48:32 (I can see an argument for rendering as italic and as underlined in a terminal…) 01:51:20 it looks like this renderer is messing up uses of 🆒 in tables, too (I don't think it realises it's a double-width character) 01:51:52 hm neither does this terminal 01:52:13 (putty + tmux) 01:52:24 all the more reason for me to work on libuncursed, I guess :-( 01:52:48 err, I should say full-width character 01:53:12 the width of ASCII characters is known as "half-width", technically speaking 01:53:36 . o O ( this character is half empty ) 01:57:05 I was going to say "most characters are half-width" but then I remembered CJK (which is mostly full-width), which possibly outnumbers the rest of the characters by itself 01:58:05 it'd be interesting to see a worldwide frequency table for Unicode codepoints 01:58:14 I'm expecting 0x20 to be the most frequently used, but it's just a guess 02:05:24 [[SequenceScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56990&oldid=56969 * A * (+337) 02:06:05 [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56991&oldid=56979 * A * (+2) 02:06:18 [[Hello++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56992&oldid=56991 * A * (+2) 02:15:47 -!- etisdew has joined. 02:47:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:47:34 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:48:59 -!- MDude has joined. 02:49:03 [[Internet Protocol Viewing Language]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56993 * A * (+18) Redirected page to [[IPVL]] 02:53:40 http://hopl.info/showlanguage.prx?exp=333&name=Nonpareil so I'm searching for _any_ kind of documentation on this language, and so far I haven't found anything. 02:54:12 I can't even find the defining paper anywhere. Bryan Higman is the author. 02:55:32 [[IPVL]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=56994 * A * (+671) Created page with "IPVL is a programming language which has only 1 command: copy. ==Copy== The command has this format: copy IP Where IP is any computer IP. ==Example(Infinite loop)== Copy 172..." 02:56:41 [[IPVL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56995&oldid=56994 * A * (+0) 03:03:02 -!- tromp has joined. 03:05:00 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56996&oldid=56980 * A * (+14) 03:07:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:09:03 [[Feta]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56997&oldid=52858 * A * (+279) 03:09:20 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56998&oldid=56996 * A * (+9) 03:39:16 -!- tromp has joined. 03:44:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:08:55 -!- Guest49508 has quit (Quit: Guest49508). 04:12:41 -!- sprocklem has joined. 04:16:09 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 04:45:38 -!- moei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:46:14 -!- moei has joined. 05:08:54 -!- tromp has joined. 05:14:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:35:40 -!- XorSwap has joined. 06:02:27 -!- tromp has joined. 06:06:39 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:47:13 -!- tromp has joined. 07:51:15 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:51:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 08:04:33 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 08:10:17 [[Far]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=56999&oldid=56862 * GibsonGeorge * (+7) 08:17:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:18:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:18:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:18:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:32:40 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:41:39 -!- tromp has joined. 08:46:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:57:37 -!- SopaXT has joined. 08:59:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:22:53 Are error messages valid quines? I just realized some of my error messages are. 09:32:58 -!- etisdew has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:34:25 -!- SopaXT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:35:48 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:43:19 They're usually called "error quines", and are kind of a separate category from proper quines. 09:44:32 There's a few of them on fungot. 09:44:33 fizzie: i i read it so i i don't know 09:44:36 ^ul ...bad insn! 09:44:36 ...bad insn! 09:44:58 fizzie, hey, that didn't print the ^ul! 09:45:10 That's fine. 09:45:29 It's not part of the source code, it's just the syntax for executing things. 09:46:17 In other words, it's a quine for fungot's Underload interpreter, not a quine for fungot itself. 09:46:17 fizzie: what website was that again)) like 09:47:43 yeah i know 09:47:55 wonder what a fungot quine looks like 09:47:55 Phantom_Hoover: so it's definitely laughter 09:48:24 sadly i don't think it can happen from the babbling 09:49:33 You can of course do it through one of the interpreters, but it's pretty boring. 09:49:41 ^ul ((^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! 09:49:41 ^ul ((^ul )SaS(:^)S):^ ...bad insn! 09:49:51 That's a fungot error quine, but... 09:49:52 fizzie: do you want to know and 09:50:33 (The error part is entirely superfluous.) 10:05:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:10:09 fizzie: okey, then I don't think there are any proper quines in my language (unless one uses the -p flag to print the return value of the whole program). 10:13:08 Can you predict what fungot will say if you know its RNG state? 10:13:08 shachaf: yeah i see i didn't even know it was fine everything's going great i just i just believe when it's our time and 10:13:31 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:16:43 shachaf: If you have the model files too, sure. 10:17:42 [[What a mess!]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57000 * A * (+1337) Created page with "'''What a mess!''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]] which is extremely messy. variables are defined like this: var=value, and the value can..." 10:27:46 -!- tromp has joined. 10:32:07 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:32:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:32:38 hi all 10:32:51 Hey, wob_jonas 10:33:24 -!- max1 has joined. 10:35:06 It's such a strange experience working in this company. So different from the previous one. 10:35:50 Where are you working? 10:37:05 In a company where most of the people are engineers, very few are IT people, and so most use a computer without the basic IT power user skills that I could expect even from the non-programmer people in my previous job. 10:37:30 Ah! 10:37:38 They're good engineers, mind you, but the engineering part is one I don't understand and don't want to learn either, so it's like they're talking in meaningless abbreviations and jargon all the time. 10:38:23 And the few people with whom I can talk about IT are always so busy, which is why there were so eager to start to employ me, a person with IT skills, at such a short notice. 10:38:47 -!- SopaAlt has joined. 10:39:01 My added value is only on the IT side. 10:39:48 So, you've got a good shot of being the Best There Is at What You Do 10:40:28 I arrived here because one of my relatives works here in a senior position, so it's important for her to finish some projects, but she's very busy because she's raising a small child, so she asked me a favor, which weighed somewhat into my decision to actually start to work here, at least for some months. 10:41:00 -!- SopaXT has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:41:39 But I probably won't stay here for very long, both because they don't do the creative IT tasks that would really satisfy me in the long run, and because I can't easily socialize with other people if they're doing a totally different job from me. 10:41:40 -!- SopaAlt has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:44:36 -!- SopaAlt has joined. 10:44:36 [[Logic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57001&oldid=15493 * A * (+21) 10:47:46 That's fair enough 10:48:39 [[Telegram]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57002&oldid=56989 * A * (+29) 10:48:41 The environment is otherwise reasonable, so I can stay half a year or even a year, until I get ready. 10:48:47 Mm 10:48:51 Well, enjoy it! 10:48:58 [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57003&oldid=56792 * A * (+29) 10:49:25 [[This=That]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57004&oldid=56781 * A * (+28) 10:50:56 Thanks 10:51:14 -!- max1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:52:30 Also, I've got a lot of technical debt in non-work IT project, so I have to "fix" (often redo) the software and hardware of my home computer, the server cbstream runs on, and the software of cbstream itself, somewhat soon, because cbstream is my flagship hobby project because it looks nice in a CV if I can write "more than 20 users for more than 10 10:52:30 years". 10:52:46 -!- tromp has joined. 10:52:54 Um, probably "over 20 users for over 10 years" or something, but I'll figure out the English phrasing later. 10:52:55 What is cbstream? 10:53:05 (both phrasings work, I think) 10:53:16 (I'm a native speaker, though, so I might be cheating) 10:56:01 Taneb: it's an IRC bot that connects an IRC channel both way to the live chat of Perlmonks, which is a website that incidentally also has a ton of technical debt and is so insecure you could easily steal almost anyone's account if you cared, but its devs are also too busy to fix any of that. 10:56:17 There's an old FAQ at http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/cbstream/ 10:56:22 but the service itself doesn't work right now 10:56:45 which is the problem: I don't want to submit the CV when the flagship project I refer to doesn't work, which an interviewer can easily test 10:57:03 You can refer to it in the past tense 11:04:36 But it would be more impressive to fix it, and it would still have around 20 users eventually (might take a few months for some people to figure out it's live again). 11:07:12 Oh yeah, totally 11:07:29 But "I ran" is almost as impressive as "I run" 11:08:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:08:55 (if you don't get it working) 11:09:14 To me a better reason for wanting to get it working again is "fun" 11:09:23 I guess that's why I'm in this IRC channel 11:13:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:19:03 Well sure, I can make it get working by rewriting the whole thing in a totally different way, such as while learning some practical rust-lang, which is also fun. 11:19:13 It's sort of a balance. We'll see what happens. 11:19:14 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:19:33 But "more than ten years with only a few months of interruption" also sounds nice on a spoken interview. 11:27:37 Only problem is, I'll definitely have heavy second system effect, with the rewrite being overcomplicated 11:27:50 The plus side is, I get free testers 11:28:05 who complain promptly about any problems 11:28:25 it's sort of like when HackEgo went down 11:28:41 anyone who quickly made a clone gets free testers 11:40:10 -!- SopaAlt has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:14:05 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:17:42 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:46:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:52:03 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:01:17 -!- SopaXT has joined. 13:02:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:45:58 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:02:29 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:05:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:39:50 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57005&oldid=56968 * GDavid * (+1481) 14:50:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:07:59 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57006&oldid=56863 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */ 15:09:02 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57007&oldid=57006 * Digital Hunter * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ 15:10:58 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57008&oldid=57007 * Digital Hunter * (-1) /* Truth-machine */ 15:13:47 -!- ProofTechnique[m has left ("Kicked by @appservice-irc:matrix.org : removing from IRC because user idle on matrix for 30+ days"). 15:24:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:58:52 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57009&oldid=56971 * Plokmijnuhby * (+532) Further explanation + C example 15:59:21 [[Popular problem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57010&oldid=53610 * Plokmijnuhby * (+4) 16:02:30 `8ball Is HackEso a good CV filler? 16:02:31 Outlook good. 16:07:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:20:13 -!- plokmijnuhby has joined. 16:20:24 -!- plokmijnuhby has quit (Client Quit). 16:24:24 -!- plokmijnuhby has joined. 16:24:38 any ideas about (((()))) ? 16:26:04 -!- plokmijnuhby has quit (Client Quit). 17:01:11 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:01:38 -!- SopaXT has joined. 17:02:44 -!- SopaXT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:04:24 -!- SopaXT has joined. 17:21:18 -!- rain1 has joined. 17:23:13 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 17:25:55 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:44:07 -!- etisdew has joined. 17:44:12 -!- _etisdew_ has joined. 17:44:21 -!- _etisdew_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:19:43 -!- imode has joined. 18:33:10 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:34:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:35:04 -!- SopaXT has joined. 18:57:08 -!- SopaXT has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:04:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:19:50 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 19:21:14 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:22:32 -!- tromp has joined. 19:23:24 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:23:38 -!- tromp has joined. 19:32:00 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:33:42 -!- aloril has joined. 19:33:49 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 19:41:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 19:43:14 -!- imode has joined. 19:45:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:47:27 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 19:47:45 -!- imode has joined. 19:56:13 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:56:49 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:57:30 -!- imode has joined. 19:58:43 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 19:59:00 -!- imode has joined. 20:07:17 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:21:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:55 `smlist 474 20:41:56 smlist 474: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 20:44:04 -!- tromp has joined. 20:48:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:07:32 -!- etisdew has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:00:27 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57011&oldid=56983 * Fogity * (-3) Updated examples and note about laziness for the latest release. 22:10:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:29:48 -!- tromp has joined. 22:34:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:55:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:11:03 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 23:13:34 [[FizzBuzz]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57012&oldid=57009 * Ais523 * (+3) you missed a fizz 23:21:46 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:23:24 -!- tromp has joined. 23:27:49 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:28:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:52:45 -!- tromp has joined. 23:55:54 -!- erkin has joined. 23:57:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2018-07-25: 00:25:13 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57013&oldid=57005 * A * (+48) I think this is also a good idea. 00:30:52 -!- tromp has joined. 00:35:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:38:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:38:21 [[Conedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57014&oldid=56117 * Ais523 * (+616) I just thought up a really elegant way to do I/O with this, in a backwards-compatible way 00:40:41 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57015&oldid=55850 * A * (+43) 00:49:43 [[Conedy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57016&oldid=57014 * Ais523 * (+688) /* Computational class */ more discussion; it's definitely strictly more powerful than a PDA, but that leaves it unclear what class it's in 00:50:08 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57017&oldid=57015 * Asdf * (+48) 00:53:14 [[Esolang:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57018&oldid=57017 * Ais523 * (-48) Undo revision 57017 by [[Special:Contributions/Asdf|Asdf]] ([[User talk:Asdf|talk]]): only one submission is allowed per user ([[User:A]] and [[User:Asdf]] are the same person) 00:54:24 * ais523 is vaguely annoyed about having finally been forced to checkuser that 00:54:40 I thought it was obvious, and indeed it was, but actually acting on such evidence pretty much needs proof 01:02:00 `unidecode ♥ 01:02:01 ​[U+2665 BLACK HEART SUIT] 01:22:21 -!- variable has joined. 01:38:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:39:45 -!- variable has joined. 01:42:01 -!- trout has joined. 01:44:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:44:58 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:45:24 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:49:14 [[Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57019&oldid=56945 * Oerjan * (+3091) One-dimensional TC construction 01:51:48 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 02:13:30 I'm beginning to suspect that Conedy's computational class is "somewhere between PDA and LBA", but I'm far from certain 02:13:42 I still have a nagging feeling that there's some ridiculous construction to make it TC 02:16:42 -!- tromp has joined. 02:21:15 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:58:56 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:10:07 -!- tromp has joined. 03:14:22 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:02:56 -!- tromp has joined. 04:07:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:09:21 -!- XorSwap has joined. 05:20:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:48:46 -!- tromp has joined. 05:53:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:54:01 -!- imode has joined. 06:04:56 -!- trout has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 06:12:03 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:26:57 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:29:02 -!- FreeFull has joined. 06:31:17 -!- tromp has joined. 06:37:39 [[Brainfuck minus -]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57020&oldid=46763 * Oerjan * (+2219) Depth two nested version based on [[Home Row]] 06:41:25 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57021&oldid=56664 * Oerjan * (+144) /* Computational class */ Nesting 07:20:57 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57022&oldid=57013 * GDavid * (+81) 07:28:35 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:30:11 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 07:34:34 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57023&oldid=57022 * GDavid * (+43) 07:35:21 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 07:55:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:06:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:10:52 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:12:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:25:03 -!- moei has joined. 08:27:51 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:28:19 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:29:01 [[Esolang talk:Featured languages/Candidates]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57024&oldid=35367 * A * (+167) /* Do people get to make new suggestions when their old one is featured? */ 08:34:32 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 08:36:19 [[Brainpocalypse]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57025&oldid=55778 * Ais523 * (-4) typo fixes 08:39:53 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:46:55 why are people making multiple accounts for the wiki? 08:49:24 [[This=That 3.0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57026 * A * (+976) Created page with "This=That 3.0 extends [[This=That 2.0]]. It adds some spacial features, such as recursion and functions. For example: function MyFunction=param,param2 starts a function calle..." 08:49:26 myname: I think it's just one person 08:49:41 [[This=That 3.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57027&oldid=57026 * A * (+0) 08:49:54 but why? 08:50:01 [[This=That 2.0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57028&oldid=57003 * A * (+31) 08:50:58 also, why is each version of that language a new language? 08:53:10 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:54:40 These abbreviations for display resolutions (see long table and lists at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphics_display_resolution ) are getting riddiculous. Why can't mobile phone providers and video advertisers just use numbers instead of abbreviations like "HD" and "QQVGA"? 08:58:58 myname: because whoever's doing this is a little bit obnoxious 09:01:51 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:02:28 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:19:31 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:21:50 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:23:35 [[EasyScript]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57029 * A * (+1418) Created page with "'''EasyScript''' is an esolang by [[User:A]], and is made up entirely of variables. Each line is just a case-sensitive variable name, followed by =, and then the..." 09:32:43 [[EasyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57030&oldid=57029 * A * (-197) 09:33:11 -!- felt has joined. 09:34:10 -!- felt has quit (Client Quit). 09:35:34 [[EasyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57031&oldid=57030 * A * (+7) 09:41:21 [[EasyScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57032&oldid=57031 * A * (-23) 10:05:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:10:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:11:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:12:30 -!- yaewa has joined. 11:12:30 -!- yaewa has quit (Client Quit). 11:13:46 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:19:30 This is getting ridiculous. The monitor has settings described as "Game Mode: Optimizes image settings for playing games." and "Samsung Magic Bright: Set to an optimum picture quality suitable for the working environment" and "Samsung Magic Upscale: Enchance picture detail and vividness" and "Response time: Accelerate the panel response rate to mak 11:19:30 e video appear more vivid and natural". 11:20:06 But that's nothing, wait until you hear what settings the Intel video card has. 11:21:07 the "game mode", if it's designed correctly, should use the simplest possible control circuitry in order to reduce latency, the other options are likely to be more complex in what they do and thus slow down the monitor's response time slightly 11:21:28 so it's a bit odd that there's a separate "response time" option, especially as the /description/ of it talks about a rate, not a time 11:22:08 [[Esolang:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57033&oldid=55419 * GDavid * (-13) 11:24:13 The video driver has somewhat detailed video "color enchancement" and "image enchancement" and "image scaling" options, including "Skin tone enchancement" among the "image enchancement" settings that I think defaulted to enabled, 11:24:49 "Select Enable to improve the appearance of skin tones for video images" 11:25:50 Then there's "Film Mode Detection: Select Enable to improve the picture quality for video that was created from film." 11:27:49 Wait, I forgot the monitor option "Smart ECO Saving: Adjust the power consumption of the product to save energy." 11:28:14 The video driver has power saving options too of course. 11:30:23 "Graphics Power Plans: Select the graphics power plan from the list. Maximum Battery Life saves power by reducing graphics performance. Balanced mode offers full graphics performance when it is needed and minimizes power consumption during inactivity. Maximum performance improves graphics performance but requires more power." 11:30:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:31:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:32:27 At least they have easy to understand options that go on a scale too. Such as, both the monitor and video driver has settings to scale the brightness and contrast. The video driver's is useful when the monitor settings doesn't go dark enough, as I found out with a different monitor and driver. 11:39:15 -!- felt has joined. 11:46:33 -!- felt has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 11:52:52 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 12:10:28 [[Stun Step]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57034 * Ais523 * (+7137) new language (note: this page is slightly unfinished, but the specification itself should be finished) 12:10:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:11:04 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57035&oldid=56985 * Ais523 * (+16) /* S */ +[[Stun Step]] 12:11:17 -!- SopaXT has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:11:35 [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57036&oldid=56651 * Ais523 * (+15) +[[Stun Step]] 12:17:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 12:18:23 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 12:19:08 -!- SopaXT has joined. 12:19:25 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:37:58 -!- SopaXT has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:48:28 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 13:08:24 [[MSR]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57037 * GDavid * (+8163) Created page with "MSR or Match Switch Reverse is an esoteric programming language invented by [[User:GDavid]]. The memory of a program is infinite.
Bits in memory are called fields.
[[MSR]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57038&oldid=57037 * GDavid * (+6) 13:16:39 [[Match Switch Reverse]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57039 * GDavid * (+17) Redirected page to [[MSR]] 13:18:02 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57040&oldid=56639 * A * (-30) 13:18:51 [[SimpleScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57041&oldid=57040 * A * (-66) 13:22:10 [[User:GDavid]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57042 * GDavid * (+35) Created page with "[[Category:People]] I made [[MSR]]." 13:23:07 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57043&oldid=57035 * GDavid * (+10) 13:24:31 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57044&oldid=57043 * GDavid * (+10) 14:22:22 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:30:56 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip). 14:31:09 -!- ATMunn has joined. 14:55:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 15:02:10 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:14:22 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:25:38 -!- FreeFull has quit. 15:30:16 -!- FreeFull has joined. 15:38:50 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:08:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:41:19 -!- tromp has joined. 16:45:42 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:09:15 -!- tromp has joined. 17:13:21 -!- imode has joined. 17:22:33 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:28:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:43:37 -!- ikaros28 has joined. 17:50:38 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:06:07 -!- tromp has joined. 18:10:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:14:31 -!- tromp has joined. 18:29:44 -!- max1 has joined. 18:29:46 -!- max1 has quit (Client Quit). 18:29:49 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 18:31:14 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:40:56 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:44:43 [[Talk:Stun Step]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57045 * Oerjan * (+494) Suggested modification 19:03:24 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:25:32 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:27:00 <\oren\_> 0xFACEB00B is a prime number 19:30:32 oh my god. 19:31:07 <\oren\_> I'm running a search for funny ones 19:31:27 <\oren\_> C0DEB011 19:31:59 -!- tromp has joined. 19:32:04 <\oren\_> well, running is a strong word 19:32:23 <\oren\_> I'm typing them in and seeing if they're prime 19:35:02 <\oren\_> CAFE7175 19:35:16 <\oren\_> I'm now using a perl scipt 19:36:18 cafe 7175 sounds like a solid name for an indie game. 19:36:35 <\oren\_> CAFETITS 19:37:48 my stance does not change. :> 19:49:49 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:53:08 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 19:53:12 <\oren\_> also 0xBABEA555 19:57:11 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57046&oldid=56865 * DMC * (+0) 20:00:27 <\oren\_> 0xB1667175 is a prime nubmer too 20:01:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:10:19 -!- moei has joined. 20:12:19 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 20:31:52 -!- tromp has joined. 20:36:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:40:15 -!- tromp has joined. 20:55:32 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ZaYen * New user account 20:56:37 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57047&oldid=56967 * ZaYen * (+176) /* Introductions */ 20:56:42 [[User:ZaYen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57048 * ZaYen * (+397) Created page with "I made the Hello Interpreter in Python 3.5 I AM THE REAL ZAYNE. I LOST MY ACCOUNT! == Interpreters Made == [[Hello]] Python interpreter
[[Hello++]] Python interpreter [[User talk:ZaYen]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57049 * ZaYen * (+134) Created page with "Because nobody made a topic I decided to make this page --[[User:Zayne|Zayne]] ([[User talk:Zayne|talk]]) 16:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC)" 20:57:46 [[User:Zayne]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57050&oldid=52860 * ZaYen * (-308) 20:58:09 [[User:ZaYen]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57051&oldid=57048 * ZaYen * (+0) 21:00:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:02:40 what was the first lang that used the lengths of arbitrary words to define numbers? 21:10:30 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lukalot * New user account 21:21:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:27:33 -!- tromp has joined. 21:32:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:57:29 <\oren\_> Started a process looking for funny 64 bit primes 22:07:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:21:33 -!- boily has joined. 22:42:22 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:33:23 alercah: HELLORCAH! TOURNAMENT! SEPTEMBER! SUBSCRIPTIONS! THINGS LIKE THAT! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 23:39:26 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:58:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2018-07-26: 00:15:30 boily 00:17:21 quintopia 00:27:42 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:39:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:42:07 helloily, hellopia 00:44:15 bonsœøirjan! 00:44:46 -!- tromp has joined. 00:49:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:49:16 -!- spiegelau has joined. 00:58:42 helloerjan 00:59:01 do you know the answer to my question above? 01:00:14 what was the first lang that used the lengths of arbitrary words to define numbers? 01:03:25 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57052&oldid=57047 * Oerjan * (+1) *Cough* 01:07:29 -!- boily has quit (Quit: COSTLY CHICKEN). 01:09:04 [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57053&oldid=57045 * Oerjan * (+294) Motivation 01:11:05 quintopia: i do not, although .Gertrude is a weirder way of making a language based on word lengths 01:19:40 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 01:19:58 -!- imode has joined. 01:37:12 -!- sprocklem has joined. 01:40:49 -!- tromp has joined. 01:43:49 [[Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57054&oldid=57034 * Ais523 * (+387) on a suggestion by rjan 01:44:21 [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57055&oldid=57053 * Ais523 * (+245) specification updated 01:45:10 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:26:29 -!- tromp has joined. 03:31:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:48:32 -!- spiegelau has quit (Quit: leaving). 04:01:38 [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57056&oldid=56281 * A * (+160) /* Normal implementations */ 04:02:57 [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57057&oldid=57056 * A * (-5) Oh no, I bragged. 04:14:35 -!- erkin has joined. 04:19:13 [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57058&oldid=57057 * A * (+84) 04:20:13 -!- tromp has joined. 04:25:07 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 04:29:38 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:12:56 -!- tromp has joined. 05:17:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:11:11 -!- variable has joined. 06:20:59 -!- tromp has joined. 06:27:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:42:16 -!- trout has joined. 06:45:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:47:12 -!- tromp has joined. 06:50:27 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:50:53 [[CC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57059 * A * (+969) Created CC, trying to prove it to be not Turing-complete 07:13:39 -!- variable has joined. 07:14:50 -!- XorSwap has joined. 07:18:02 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:45:53 -!- trout has joined. 07:48:09 oh another half-specified language 07:49:28 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:57:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:58:34 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:00:15 -!- GeekDude has joined. 08:18:20 -!- variable has joined. 08:21:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 08:49:52 -!- trout has joined. 08:53:16 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:06:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:19:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:19:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:20:01 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:21:24 -!- variable has joined. 09:25:18 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:52:54 -!- trout has joined. 09:55:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:07:28 -!- SopaXT has joined. 10:09:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:13:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:14:35 -!- Guest99 has joined. 10:24:27 -!- variable has joined. 10:27:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:55:43 -!- trout has joined. 10:58:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:07:19 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:08:21 quintopia: lengths of arbitrary words as numbers => I considered that when doing perl golf with source code form restricted to lowercase letters and spaces only, because you can just write length jjjjjjjjj to get the number 9, but it turns out to never worth it 11:09:10 oh, actually, it might be worth it 11:09:22 this table says it's worth for the constants 1 and 3, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=340164 11:09:33 but of course that might not be optimal 11:10:56 Hah. "The list has been updated." is a pretty useless satement. 11:11:26 int-e: I explain the update below the list 11:15:05 "(see below)" 11:15:27 wob_jonas: I found it eventually. 11:23:14 -!- SopaXT has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:25:41 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:26:47 -!- variable has joined. 11:29:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 11:41:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:43:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:43:25 I hate how when ebay sends email about an order, it truncates the name of the item purchased. The item names are usually long to have as many search keywords as possible, and the truncated part often doesn't contain the actually important information. 11:46:20 And I'm not talking about the email subject. In the subject, truncating makes sense. It's the email body where this bothers me. 11:47:43 Also, I think ebay doesn't understand show slow post is to Hungary from East Asia. They always ask me to give feedback to items that haven't arrived yet. Heck, even some of the expected arrival times that items list are underestimates, which I know and expect items to be later than that, but still. 11:48:23 And I think when an item arrives very late, so I don't give feedback until that, ebay punishes me by hiding the item from the list of my purchases so I can't find it anywhere. This only happened once or twice, but still. 11:50:07 I could just lie and give feedback before the item arrives, but then I'd be in a lost position in the very rare case when the item doesn't arrive at all. 11:55:33 Ebay is a pain for buyers and sellers. Especially when buying / selling internationally :-( 11:57:02 impomatic: heh I read that as "intentionally" at first 11:57:29 Well I've occasionally bought stuff unintentionally! 11:58:27 * impomatic buys and sells lots of ZX Spectrum software. 11:58:35 -!- trout has joined. 12:02:15 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:03:38 I've already mentioned the very informative "1.00 HUF = 0.00 CAD" rounded exchange rates on ebay's special paypal interface, 12:04:41 although these turn out to be irrelevant anyway, because after like a year of using paypal and ebay, I found out that there is a way after all to make paypal charge my bank in the foreign currency instead of converting from HUF itself, 12:05:36 only the interface for that is well hidden and requires additional work for each payment, which I think they've done deliberately because currency conversion fees is the main way Paypal profits from my payments. 12:07:17 oh, that reminds me. I bought a spare mobile phone. I should order the screen protector foil in advance this time, rather than when I already have to use the phone. 12:14:41 I've had a few bargains on eBay recently. I bought about 70 issues of Scientific American for 10 :-) I like the Computer Recreations column. 12:15:15 Is eBay's currency conversion rate bad? 12:15:38 impomatic: ebay doesn't itself handle payment. I usually pay through paypal, but depending on the seller, you can pay in other ways 12:15:49 impomatic: but the paypal currency conversion rate is really bad 12:16:10 deliberately, because that's a good source of income for them 12:20:16 Hmmm... Google says 1 GBP is 1.13 EUR. I received a couple of EUR payments yesterday and they used the rate 1.18 EUR -> 1 GBP. 12:20:29 Just under 5% lost in currency conversion. 12:30:43 -!- variable has joined. 12:32:52 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:39:21 Hmm. 5% seems high. 12:44:06 impomatic: their terms and conditions describe exactly how they compute all the conversions, but you can just check the current exchange rates on paypal and see that they're high too 12:44:43 my bank offers me much better rates when charging my card in a foreign currency, so that's always worth to choose 12:45:27 from what I've seen, paypal, officially, charges 2.5% over the interbank exchange rate 12:46:03 but I see contradictory numerical examples, so I'm confused. 12:54:08 -!- imode has joined. 12:55:59 int-e: it's complicated. it depends on the details how much they charge. their TOS is long and complicated. 12:56:51 My latest foreign currency transaction was a 300GBP cash withdrawal that ended up as 345.62EUR; the interbank exchange rate was 1.1276..1.1316 that day, so that amounted to 1.8% to 2.17% loss. 12:57:33 (and I have no clue how much of that went to the ATM operator) 12:58:15 (Though, hmm, I did get a receipt stating 300 GBP, no fee.) 12:58:20 you withdraw cash from paypal? that sounds strange 12:58:32 No it was an ATM. 12:58:48 oh, that was a bank transaction 12:58:54 but withdrawing cash is different 12:58:56 I'm trying to get an idea what's normal, so I'm looking at other ways of doing the conversion. 12:59:34 banks have two different exchange rates, one for cash transactions (called "valuta" in Hungarian) and a much better for payments or transfers (called "deviza" in Hungarian) 13:00:10 here you pay the former, plus you probably also pay a fee for the cash withdrawal, and possibly a high fee if you have withdrawn the cash from an ATM abroad 13:00:56 you can see from the columns of https://www.otpbank.hu/portal/hu/Arfolyamok/OTP how much cheaper is the "deviza" exchange rate 13:01:16 apparently there's also a third rate for cheques, I didn't know that 13:01:34 or... I probably knew but forgot, because that's almost never relevant here 13:01:51 I only ever used a bank cheque once in my life, because I'm in Europe 13:02:25 -!- trout has joined. 13:03:10 my latest GBP credit card charge had a 2.0 to 2.7% loss by the same calculation (and the amount was in the same ballpark) 13:03:32 I have not checked the terms of service... maybe later. 13:04:20 but banks always have tricky fees other than currency exchange, so it can be worth to read their terms to figure out the hacks to get cheaper fees for the things you do 13:05:33 Anyway, I would still say that 5% is high, unless it's for a small amount. 13:05:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:05:55 it requires really strange hacks. for example, if I want to withdraw a larger amount of cash (which is not common), then it's cheaper for me to use the ATM of any bank other than my bank. 13:06:23 interesting 13:07:51 sadly the same is true about taxes. there's a strange construction of effectively investing supported combined by the state through taxes and a side company associated with the bank called "egészségpénztár" that I should have used to invest money into for years, but I only found out about it now. 13:08:06 and telephone and internet charges too 13:08:35 sadly all these keep changing their terms a lot so it may require more of your time to figure out the right hack than how much you gain from it 13:09:02 very often they deliberately obfuscate their terms so that they effectively charge people for not regularly reading them 13:10:33 at some point you have to draw a limit for how much reading small letter rules is worth your time 13:12:22 and these days they combine it with hard to use web interfaces to access documents and settings of course 13:34:13 -!- variable has joined. 13:36:35 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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I also couldn't create a competitive environment to judge which program is better. This is the program that I wrote https://github.com/DragonComputer/Swarm 23:17:43 I know it's not that complicated or polished. But my purpose here to express an idea. 23:20:22 Python here gives me the benefit of overcoming "issue of program brittleness" but at the same time it kills the parallelism and the ability to do stuff with memory in low level. 23:22:36 So I guarantee error free new generations but I'm unable to provide the necessary conditions to create a survival challenge. Do you have any idea or advice? 23:38:50 -!- trout has joined. 23:41:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 2018-07-27: 00:02:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:09:55 -!- variable has joined. 00:13:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:26:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:27:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:33:04 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:34:35 -!- imode has joined. 00:35:02 -!- mertyildiran has quit (Quit: Page closed). 00:44:14 -!- trout has joined. 00:46:42 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:56:34 CMV: graph rewriting cannot be done without using variables and binding said variables to subgraphs. 01:00:26 OH MAN 01:00:40 imode: define graph rewriting and variables here 01:01:53 . o O ( channel mini ...what?... ) 01:01:59 change my view. 01:02:22 . o O ( darn, fooled by PPCG chat ) 01:02:54 alercah: graph rewriting, rewriting over graphs. lhs -> rhs rules, only both the lhs and rhs are graphs. lhs is a pattern (that may include variables on edges, nodes, etc.) that's to be found in the given graph, and rhs is the pattern that's supposed to replace it. 01:03:16 so "variable" here means a label? 01:03:46 "variable" means a variable. naively, something you can store something in, namely a node label, an edge label, or an entire subgraph. 01:03:59 I know off the top of my head of two formulations of HR grammars, one that work in terms of an algebra of equations, like how a CFG works 01:04:07 the other works with labeled vertices 01:04:15 HR grammars? 01:04:28 to google! 01:04:29 hyperedge replacement 01:04:33 ah. 01:04:41 . o O ( highly recursive ) 01:04:47 start with a hypergraph, with labeled verticces 01:05:04 whats graph rewriting for? 01:05:43 each rule is G -> H where G and H are hypergraphs 01:06:01 alright... 01:06:05 hm. 01:06:07 they must have a certain number of distinguished vertices, the same in each 01:06:23 do you have some example rules and transformations? you have my curiosity. 01:06:40 if you have a label match between a hyperedge in your graph, and the distinguished vertices in G, then you replace the edge with H 01:07:00 you could do it without labels in theory, but labels get you a lot more power 01:07:17 unlabeled is what I'm after in the long run. 01:07:20 because otherwise you don't have much control over how matches work 01:07:41 if you just want to eliminate labels, you could just invent unique gadgets to replace labels 01:07:56 yeah, just unique local "shapes". 01:08:14 imode: do you know the series-parallel graphs? 01:08:17 the problem is I can't wrap my head around how you'd specify certain arrangements of nodes and edges. 01:08:24 in circuits? 01:08:27 yeah 01:08:31 yeah. 01:08:54 the recursive procedure to build them up can be expressed as an HR grammar 01:09:03 ...interesting. 01:09:36 so let's say I have, for example, a loop that I want to extend. let's say I have a cycle of length 5, with nodes A, B, C, D, E, and F arranged linearly, with F connected to A. 01:10:02 I want to match any loop of 5 nodes, and then add a node after the last node. what would the rule look like for that. 01:10:11 HR doesn't do that 01:10:14 it only replaces edges 01:10:22 okay, so you can't add or remove vertices. 01:10:25 you can 01:10:32 you can replace an edge with a graph 01:10:39 wat 01:10:50 1 sec, let me make sure I get this right 01:10:57 sure, thanks for even bothering. 01:11:12 what ab out regex 01:11:22 imode: this was my masters thesis :) 01:11:27 o shit. 01:11:32 (hence the OH MAN) 01:11:34 came to the right person then. :P 01:11:50 imode: so do you know the definition of series-parallel graphs by reduction? 01:11:57 uh, shoot. 01:12:10 also the thing that sparked my interest was https://www.slideshare.net/slidarko/computing-with-directed-labeled-graphs-3879998 01:13:29 a graph is series-parallel if it can be reduced to P_2 by removing duplicate edges and by contracting a vertex of degree 2 (other than the endpoints) 01:14:31 contracting a vertex of degree 2. in or out degree. 01:14:37 or are we talking about undirected, sorry. 01:14:53 undirected 01:15:04 oh wait my bad, I got this construction of HR slightly wrong T_T 01:15:05 gotcha. okay. 01:15:10 (I worked with the algebraic one) 01:15:12 lmao, it's cool. 01:15:24 I take it you're somewhere around computer engineering? 01:15:36 -!- variable has joined. 01:15:37 the thesis was in graph structure theory 01:15:44 I'm a SWE at Google atm 01:15:49 damn. sweet. 01:16:55 the labeling is on edges, not vertices 01:17:03 and it denotes the nonterminals 01:17:07 alright. 01:17:19 I don't think the rules could possibly apply to all hypergraphs then, could it? 01:17:25 so e.g. for series-parallel, we have one nonterminal S 01:18:20 and we have rules v-S-w -> v-S-x-S-w, and v-S-W -> v=SS=w 01:18:27 kind of silly notation 01:18:35 but the first one is meant to be series construction and the second one is parallel 01:18:48 or in other words, subdivision and duplication 01:19:06 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:19:21 and then you have one rule v-S-w -> v-w 01:19:26 which just eliminates the nonterminal 01:19:28 that's pretty interesting notation, I can see the forking and merging. 01:19:34 yeah this is just invented right now for IRC 01:19:38 I would not recommend it in general :) 01:20:09 (hypergraphs are often depicted with, say, cicles for edges and boxes for vertices, as otherwise they get pretty ambiguous pretty fast) 01:20:30 so the series-parallel graphs are the ones you get starting from one S-edge and then replacing edges 01:20:35 lmao, I figured. but that's interesting. so you can derive any "reasonable" circuit from those two rules. 01:20:40 yep 01:20:51 the result is well-known, it just happens to be a nice simple example of an HR grammar 01:21:04 but that does use variables. 01:21:08 to bind to labels. 01:21:17 it uses nonterminal labels 01:21:23 but in a similar way to how a CFG does 01:21:35 e.g. S -> xSw 01:21:50 ah. 01:22:23 you can use labels to restrict the bindings, yeah 01:22:56 so I guess I'd ask.. how would I use hyperedge rewriting to do general graph manipulations like I detailed above? 01:23:01 that's kind of what I'm after. 01:23:16 HR can't do that I think 01:23:37 ah. that's still interesting though, I didn't know there was a process for deriving those kinds of graphs. 01:23:50 it's actually the start of a rabbithole of deep results 01:24:06 I can understand why you don't want labeled verts, because in those graphs, all you _really_ care about are the edges. 01:25:03 yeah 01:25:10 nothing wrong with using labels to carry information, as well 01:25:16 tru. 01:25:47 the HR grammars are nice because they naturally correspond to the CFGs over strings 01:25:57 there are other kinds, though, like vertex replacement 01:26:18 similar idea, but they use vertices as the replacement point, rather than edges 01:26:22 what corresponds to unrestricted grammars? 01:26:44 I'm not sure off the top of my head 01:28:49 might be worth thinking about it in terms of the algebraic formulations 01:28:55 the other way of expressing HR grammars 01:29:04 and that was the one I was thinking of initially 01:29:11 hrmmmmm. 01:29:43 but I mixed the two up 01:30:02 so in this system, you work over graphs where each graph has some labeled vertices, no two identical 01:30:06 (called sources) 01:31:01 you can freely rename sources, or make a source into a non-source 01:31:30 (technically renaming needs to preserve uniqueness so it's best expressed as swapping to keep things mathematically simple, but that's not necessarily relevant) 01:31:54 and then you can do a parallel composition, where you glue two graphs together at matching sources 01:32:11 huuuuuuuh. now _that's_ interesting. I can see how they're equivalent. 01:32:47 this can be expressed as an algebra 01:32:53 (that is, a bunch of things and some operations on them) 01:33:04 and then you can view a grammar as a system of equations 01:34:54 e.g. for series-parallel, S = st | S // S [parallel construction] | rename[t->p](S) // rename[s->p](S) [series construction] 01:35:06 st is a constant single edge with ends s and t 01:35:26 and then S // S is parallel since it joins two graphs at s and t 01:35:41 and the series construction is obtained by taking two graphs, renaming opposite ends of them to p, then merging 01:35:49 so p is fused but s and t remain as the endpoints 01:36:00 (oh I forgot you have to add a forget[p] operation) 01:36:05 (heh) 01:37:06 the graphs generated by this grammar are just the minimal solution to the system of equations 01:37:45 wild. 01:37:56 inherently, though, it can't do the sort of structural replacement you're looking for because it is focused on having a sort of exposed surface to glue graphs together, if you will 01:38:30 you could use it to extend a cycle, but not sensitively to the size 01:38:45 yeah I can see that. but from what I'm seeing, the gluing operation can be used to construct the desired graph. 01:38:52 just with a specific sequence of operations. 01:39:08 correct me if I'm wrong on that. 01:39:17 yep 01:39:48 but it turns out you cannot create a grammar in this system that will have unbounded cycle size 01:39:54 (assuming you are restricting to finite graphs) 01:40:22 the fundamental limitation is on the fact that you can only "keep track" of finitely many vertices 01:40:47 so eventually you'd lose track of how big the cycle is and just keep expanding it indefinitely 01:40:57 err wait 01:41:01 not all cycles 01:41:07 bleh, ignore that 01:41:11 I was thinking slightly wrongly 01:41:17 's all good. I think wrongly all the time. 01:41:53 you can of course do that because the series-parallel graphs do that :P 01:42:02 you can't have unbounded cliques though 01:42:17 because once you forget a vertex, its relationships are finalized 01:43:24 and this kind of model can't take edges away 01:43:42 so once you have a 5-cycle, you can't turn it into a 6-cycle 01:44:46 ah. 01:45:30 CFGs basically work on the same underlying technology 01:45:37 yeah, just over strings and not graphs.. 01:45:41 yeah 01:45:49 and they have the same limitation of finite-ness... 01:46:13 I guess the unrestricted grammar version would probably just be allowing arbitrary equations on the left-hand side as well 01:46:31 yeah. I think that'd solve the vertex amnesia. 01:46:54 and actually allow you to construct arbitrarily large cycles. 01:47:37 it might 01:47:43 you also can do this with different underlying algebras 01:47:51 since HR is far from the only reasonable algebra on graphs 01:48:35 (there's some tricksy technology that's used to define what it means to be an equational set i.e. generated set here, but I think the general idea is sound) 01:48:35 given. all sorts of graph grammars and equivalent algebras to explore. :P 01:49:22 I'd probably point you at Courcelle if you want to read more :) 01:49:31 -!- trout has joined. 01:49:35 his papers cover a lot of relevant stuff 01:50:06 say no more fam, I've got it logged down to research. 01:51:29 there's also some cool relation to the regular languages here: you can generalize the idea of a regular language in a couple of different ways (e.g. myhill-nerode construction, DFAs) 01:51:40 (and a homomorphism-based one) 01:52:17 they all work out to be the same thing 01:52:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:52:29 but the relationship between recognizable sets (this generalization) and equational sets is not subset like with strings 01:52:50 but you do get the filtering theorem, that the intersection of equational and recognizable is equational 01:55:00 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 02:00:36 @metar ENVA 02:00:38 ENVA 270150Z 10010KT CAVOK 21/13 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 09006KT 02:02:16 upcoming heatwave 02:03:18 imode: did I change your view :P 02:07:39 ehh, not realy. to actually implement your concepts, you still need binding. :P 02:07:55 and it doesn't generalize to all graphs (I'm interested in working over semantic nets). 02:08:03 but by god what you covered was interesting as hell. 02:16:09 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:22:50 -!- variable has joined. 02:25:58 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:00:49 -!- trout has joined. 03:04:06 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:33:48 -!- variable has joined. 03:36:50 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:42:50 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 03:42:52 [[ZZT-Flip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57061&oldid=56952 * Zzo38 * (+258) 04:12:17 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: sprocklem). 04:12:38 -!- sprocklem has joined. 04:13:29 -!- sprocklem has quit (Client Quit). 04:16:52 -!- sprocklem has joined. 04:45:20 -!- MDude has joined. 05:24:35 -!- tromp has joined. 05:48:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:06:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:26:08 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:29:21 -!- XorSwap has joined. 06:38:38 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 06:40:18 -!- moei has joined. 06:40:41 -!- tromp has joined. 06:45:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:45:48 -!- variable has joined. 06:47:42 -!- variable has quit (Client Quit). 07:21:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:37:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 07:47:04 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:15:57 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 08:18:11 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 08:26:41 -!- tromp has joined. 08:31:24 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:01:43 -!- tromp has joined. 10:06:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:08:13 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:52:37 -!- variable has joined. 11:13:07 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 11:13:25 -!- fungot has joined. 11:24:19 -!- trout has joined. 11:27:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:48:16 -!- tromp has joined. 11:53:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:55:49 -!- variable has joined. 11:59:00 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:13:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:14:20 trying to prove Stun Step TC has been very interesting 12:15:02 the issue is that we don't have any TCness proofs for reversible counter machines yet, and it's fairly difficult to emulate anything using a reversible counter machine other than other reversible counter machines 12:15:17 I've been working on a high-level (as esolangs go) language to bridge the gap 12:15:28 but it's probably going to need an IDE to be effectively able to program in 12:15:32 hi ais523 12:15:41 hi 12:15:45 I have a theory question, not specifically for you, but for anyone here 12:16:50 it's well-known that a finite state machine with two-stacks using some finite alphabet in the stacks, with UB on stack underflow, is Turing-complete, and you can simulate a one-tape Turing-machine on that, right? 12:16:56 but I want a variant of this 12:18:21 yes, the well-known variant is TC assuming sufficiently powerful control flow 12:18:47 oh, you also need the alphabet to contain at least one character 12:18:56 err, at least two, if underflow is UB 12:19:08 (you use one as an EOF character and the other as a counter) 12:19:21 what's your variant? 12:19:38 The control is that the program has any finite number of states, and each state that pops has different followup states for each possible letter it can pop. 12:19:58 The alphabets are large enough, you could say the program tells how large, but finite. 12:20:17 The separate alphabets for both stacks are large enough but finite that is. 12:21:14 that's TC so far (e.g. you can implement StackFlow in it) 12:21:37 I know it's TC. What I'm saying is that it's also well-known to be TC. 12:21:44 yes 12:21:51 For my variant, what I need to be well-known is that it can simulate a Turing-machine with an oracle, where the program can interactively query the oracle for a string from an alphabet, and get a yes or no answer, and the program can call the oracle any number of times. 12:22:23 you want a stack machine with an oracle? 12:22:30 And the machine I want to use for this is the two-stack machine, except it has a special state when it queries the oracle, with two followup states, and importantly, the entire first stack is the input to the oracle. 12:22:37 ooh! I see 12:23:18 So what I want well-known is that the machine can temporarily save all its state to its second stack, not using the first stack or the control state, and continue, and call the oracle with arbitrary input strings from the alphabet this way. 12:23:24 I'm not sure if it's well-known, but it's true 12:23:52 The oracle input may need to be in a specific format, and can't have extra leading or trailing symbols or anything. 12:24:11 yes, that's not a problem 12:25:10 I could relax the requirement about the control state, but using only one stack temporarily and a specific format on the first stack is mandatory for my proof. 12:25:29 the way to think about it is that if you have one stack (as opposed to a queue or a tape), the thing restricting you from TCness is that you have nowhere to store the top elements of your stack while you read the bottom ones 12:25:41 And I also want this to run this with a reasonable speed, with at most polynomial slowdown in the number of steps. 12:25:46 so you have to throw them away (a PDA) or else store them elsewhere, and a second stack is sufficient to store them elsewhere 12:26:12 but you can use the second stack for other things while you don't need it as a temporary 12:26:48 if you want to switch into "oracle mode", you do shuffling around to effectively put a sequence of imperative commands onto the main stack (each of these corresponds to a state that runs the command in question) 12:27:06 It's like the problem with those string replacement languages: you have to move the oracle input from somewhere on the second stack to the first stack, and only that input, with some letter swaps, which requires a lot of states but who cares. 12:27:10 "push symbol X on oracle stack", "pop oracle stack", "run oracle", "go to state Y" 12:27:38 then you switch to a state that simply repeatedly pops from the main stack and runs the appropriate command 12:27:38 -!- trout has joined. 12:27:47 Yeah. 12:28:08 (if the oracle is outputting in state form, you need two states to continue running the program after it returns, one for true, one for false, so that you use the state as a temporary to remember the oracle's answer) 12:28:28 this should be an O(n) slowdown where n is the size of the stack, so if the program was polynomial it'll stay polynomial 12:28:57 interestingly, I have something like this as a primitive that I put in higher-level stack-based languages 12:29:46 How I'm trying to use this is that the oracle is going to be a random-access disk storing an infinity of bits, and you give the address to read or write in (say) binary to the oracle, plus tell it whether to write zero, write one, or read. 12:30:04 it's the opposite of "infra" from Joy, so I call it "ultra"; what it does is converts the entire stack into a single function, which when executed pushes the data in question back onto the stack 12:30:08 Also, for reasons, the disk requires you to write a bit before you read it, otherwise it's UB. 12:30:45 And this way a stack machine with that disk as oracle can "efficiently" simulate a RAM machine or a heap cons allocation machine, where the slowdown is a polylog factor of the runtime. 12:30:51 if you're trying to implement it in a language that doesn't have it, you normally need to alter commands to ones that record the stack height, but apart from that it isn't terrible 12:31:11 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 12:31:49 hmm, looks like I have an implementation lying around: (~aa(n:^)~*(*)*^)n:^ 12:32:01 (this is Underload + a primitive n for determining whether the stack is empty) 12:32:24 you do need to know where the end of the main stack is but in this construction, you can just use a separate symbol for it 12:32:56 of course, the stack model you're using doesn't allow for arbitrarily complex elements 12:33:13 although, hmm, I wonder if you could use something with paired ( and ) characters to delimit the elements 12:33:49 no, I definitely need a finite alphabet 12:33:53 that'd work better in a three-stack system than a two-stack system, though (one for holding the program, one for holding the data, one for parsing the data) 12:34:01 for the arbitrarily complex data, I store it in the disk oracle 12:34:16 yes, but I can't afford three stacks. I need two stacks for this proof. 12:34:25 wob_jonas: what you've got me thinking about is an Underload variant that runs on a finite-alphabet stack machine without a separate encoding layer 12:34:39 it's easily doable in three 12:34:41 two might be possible though 12:34:42 I could get a bit more relaxed with states, like, I don't insist on only one oracle state, but two stacks is important. 12:34:54 via using the state machine to store data 12:36:36 This is for the proof of how powerful Consumer Society is, although for practical programs you don't need all this complexity, you can get away with a simpler construction that lets you access a huge but finite amount of data. 12:37:11 ugh, you do need three, so this approach won't work 12:37:37 why do I need three? 12:37:43 no, not your approach 12:37:46 mine for solving your problem 12:37:58 oh, the "underload with finite-alphabet stack" 12:38:09 I don't even understand what that would supposed to be look like 12:38:31 ['(',':','a','S','S',')',':','a','S','S'] 12:38:39 i.e. the parentheses are elements in the alphabet 12:39:02 what's with 'S','S' 12:39:09 ^ul (:aSS):aSS 12:39:09 (:aSS):aSS 12:39:16 oh 12:39:17 I was just picking a well-known Underload program 12:39:31 a quine 12:39:34 yes 12:40:16 so the problem with stack machines is that they're bad at copying data 12:40:24 of arbitrary size 12:40:42 yes, or rearranging data 12:40:52 but yes, copying is bad too 12:41:10 even without supporting nested parentheses, Underload's ':' seems difficult (impossible?) to implement without the help of a third stack or a separate encoding layer 12:41:34 like, let's pose this as a problem: suppose you have a stack of 'a' and 'b', and an EOF character (say '$') 12:42:00 suppose you allow any finite number of additional characters, and you have a second stack that starts empty 12:42:09 can you duplicate the contents of the stack in polynomial time? 12:42:54 I think so. it would be quadratic 12:43:09 first you change each a to ac and each b to bd 12:43:16 in one pass 12:43:24 and then you bubble-sort 12:43:29 then you do a bubble sort to bubble up the c and d 12:43:30 yes 12:43:32 right 12:43:45 should be quadratic even on two stacks 12:43:54 you just need a larger alphabet and enough states 12:43:55 this is possibly the first serious use of bubble sort I've seen :-D 12:44:17 actually I think this gives a general method for implementing two stacks with three 12:44:23 err, implementing three stacks with two 12:44:24 you need to encode in the state whether you need another pass of the sort 12:44:40 or in fact any number of stacks with two 12:44:58 use one stack that simply contains an arbitrary interleaving of all but one of the rest (using different symbols for the various stacks) 12:45:02 ais523: yes, I had some sort of question similar to that earlier 12:45:14 -!- imode has joined. 12:46:05 actually you don't even need a bubble sort for this, just move all the information onto your temp stack until you find an element of the stack you're looking for 12:46:13 delete it, encode it in the state, and move all the information back again 12:46:30 sure, then it's cubical time 12:46:31 this should also serve as a proof that you can keep one stack with entirely arbitrary information, because all the stacks you're using for computation are encoded on the other 12:46:59 this is only an O(n) slowdown, I think? accessing any element of any stack takes a length of time bounded by the total number of elements in all stacks 12:47:01 yes, that works 12:47:07 um 12:47:37 o(n) multiplicative factor sslowdown 12:47:58 so like O(n**2) slowdown 12:48:17 if the program was running in O(a) space and O(b) time, it now runs in O(a) space and O(ab) time 12:48:22 yeah 12:48:33 which is actually a fairly good complexity result 12:48:43 which is actually important, to track the space and time separately 12:48:46 given that space complexities are normally smaller than time complexities 12:48:50 exactly 12:49:05 (with some definitions they're always smaller because it takes time to fill all that space) 12:49:31 the space here is going to be only polylog of the time, because the space will only be used to keep a bounded number of addresses on the disk, as many addresses as the simulated machine has registers, plus a few temporaries 12:49:47 the simulated machine is sub-TC? 12:50:02 no, the simulated machine is TC 12:50:05 it's a cons heap machine 12:50:13 and I care about efficient runtime 12:50:15 that was the point 12:50:18 oh, the addresses get arbitrarily large 12:50:22 yes 12:50:38 but only logarithmically large, because they're in binary and I allocate them sequentially 12:50:50 I don't care about garbage collection 12:50:55 so yes, this runs with polylog slowdown I think 12:51:00 right 12:51:08 that's all I want to prove 12:53:14 this will prove that Consumer Society is efficient in theory, as efficient as, say, SKI calculus or whatever reasonable computational model with unbounded memory size, up to polylog slowdown 12:53:49 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:53:59 and I can separately prove that it's also sort of efficient in practice if you only need compile time bounded sized memory, although not really so efficient that you'd want to run real programs in it, just eso-efficient 12:54:27 and that part is easier to program by far, no need to swap symbols from an alphabet on two stacks or such crazy stuff all the time 12:54:36 well, I admit to being guilty of writing languages that run in double exponential time before now… 12:55:16 although the reason my TCness proof of 3* stalled out is that I wanted to make a more efficient version of the proof 12:55:20 Amycus implemented the naive way is much worse than double-exponential 12:55:23 involving a more efficient cyclic tag 12:55:27 with integers that is 12:55:33 that's why I describe how to implement it properly 12:56:24 there's no point in having complexity classes beyond double-exponential because they're all far too slow to even comprehend 12:56:28 let alone attempt to run programs in 12:56:43 (this includes double-exponential as one of the classes that's too slow to comprehend) 13:17:04 hmm 13:34:06 -!- tromp has joined. 13:38:30 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:41:47 wob_jonas: it's surprisingly bothering to see someone say nothing for 15 minutes, say "hmm" once, then go silent for another 15 minutes 13:42:28 I was just thinking about this disk model a bit more 13:54:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:56:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:59:09 hmm 14:00:20 hello int-e 14:00:42 -!- ais523 has quit (Excess Flood). 14:01:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:03:25 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:03:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:26:37 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:27:06 -!- tromp has joined. 14:31:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:40:40 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: 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seconds). 18:27:57 -!- sebbu has joined. 18:28:52 -!- tromp has joined. 18:39:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:40:02 [[Brainfuck in Python]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57062 * Kaa-kun * (+1212) Brainfuck in Python 18:41:30 [[Brainfuck in Python]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57063&oldid=57062 * Kaa-kun * (+124) Correction 18:49:03 [[Esolang talk:Community portal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57064&oldid=55607 * Kaa-kun * (+432) /* Important message from Carbuncle */ new section 20:07:54 My high score so far in "Into the Blue" is 36690 points. Did you play that game? It is like a cross between Panel de Pon and 15 Puzzle. 20:12:54 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:17:21 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:45:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sylwester * New user account 20:57:27 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:59:41 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 21:05:12 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:41:07 -!- tromp has joined. 21:45:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:16:16 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 22:55:19 -!- imode has joined. 23:09:19 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:58:11 -!- MDude has joined. 2018-07-28: 00:14:45 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:17:48 @metar ENVA 00:17:50 ENVA 272350Z 11015KT CAVOK 26/15 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 13012KT 00:18:08 this is seriously unnatural for trondheim at midnight tdnh 00:19:58 it also means i cannot get the apartment cooled down properly before tomorrow starts heating it again :( 00:29:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:59:49 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:22:24 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 01:39:11 [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57065&oldid=57060 * Oerjan * (+1086) /* Ideas for TC proof */ new section 01:44:47 [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57066&oldid=57065 * Oerjan * (+383) /* Reversible Brainfuck */ Observation 02:39:31 -!- tromp has joined. 02:44:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:40:21 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hakerh400 * New user account 03:50:59 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57067&oldid=57052 * Hakerh400 * (+142) /* Introductions */ 04:01:39 How to determine in Linux if the current time is a leap second? 04:23:38 https://stackoverflow.com/questions/26202730/how-to-find-out-if-the-linux-kernel-will-insert-a-leap-second-at-the-end-of-the 04:24:10 zzo38: the above ought to solve your problem. 04:24:14 there's a flag that you can check. 04:25:37 -!- tromp has joined. 04:29:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:44:04 I am concerned only about the current time when the program is running. However that suggests that you need NTP to figure out if there even is a leap second at all. 04:54:23 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:58:33 . o O ( maybe the only way to check must take more than a second, so it's unsolvable ) 05:00:05 [[Functional()]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57068 * Hakerh400 * (+10438) Added a new language: "Functional()" 05:03:12 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 05:03:37 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 05:10:21 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57069&oldid=57044 * Hakerh400 * (+19) Added "Functional()" 05:11:41 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:14:18 [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57070&oldid=57068 * Hakerh400 * (-1) 05:43:50 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Stupid heat). 06:11:13 -!- tromp has joined. 06:16:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 06:42:26 -!- tromp has joined. 07:10:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:13:20 -!- tromp has joined. 07:38:48 -!- spiegelau has joined. 07:54:16 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57071&oldid=57011 * Fogity * (+773) Added turing completeness section. 08:20:23 [[Talk:]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57072 * Plokmijnuhby * (+225) Created page with "The fizzbuzz program uses in a way that is outside the specification, i.e. to define a variable. Is this intended behaviour? ~~~" 08:32:08 [[Talk:]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57073&oldid=57072 * Fogity * (+131) 08:33:40 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:33:54 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57074&oldid=57071 * Fogity * (+49) /* Language */ (clarified param count) 08:47:16 -!- tromp has joined. 08:48:06 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 08:52:29 -!- variable has joined. 09:12:15 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:24:42 -!- trout has joined. 09:28:15 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:57:13 -!- variable has joined. 10:00:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:10:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:28:33 -!- trout has joined. 10:32:03 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:33:10 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:41:10 -!- tromp has joined. 10:54:58 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:00:41 -!- variable has joined. 11:03:18 -!- tromp has joined. 11:04:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:32:04 -!- trout has joined. 11:35:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:58:25 -!- erkin has joined. 12:03:53 -!- variable has joined. 12:06:47 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:12:07 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57075&oldid=57069 * GDavid * (-10) 12:33:49 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:34:27 -!- trout has joined. 12:37:46 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:44:56 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:45:19 zzo38: are you trying to make an esolang similar to http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 ? 12:47:05 or are you merely in charge of precise timing for some delicate astronomy or physics or spacefaring project? 12:51:18 and yeah, looking into ntp demons is the right thing for this. the linux kernel serves timestamps either as unix epoches, which can't represent leap seconds, so they're faked by fuzzing time to go a bit slower during a longer period before, 12:51:31 -!- paul2520 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.2). 12:51:46 -!- paul2520 has joined. 12:51:46 -!- paul2520 has quit (Changing host). 12:51:46 -!- paul2520 has joined. 12:51:52 or monotone timestamps, which do go steadily even near leap seconds, but aren't anchored to UTC or anything other than an arbitrary point at bootup. 12:52:51 The ntp demon gets the precise time and up to date future leap second info from a GPS receiver or from some other ntp server on the network, and so it's what knows about leap seconds and handles all this. 12:54:29 Most linux programs don't care about precise *absolute* timekeeping, the approximate (to a second, in the fortunate case when ntp is working well and you have network connection, or to a minute otherwise if you set time by hand) calendar time and a precise but relative timekeeping is enough for them. 12:57:38 There's some kernel interface between ntp and the kernel where ntp can both set time and tell the kernel to slow down or speed up time a bit, which is used not only for leap seconds, but because the local clock can be inaccurate. 13:06:42 -!- variable has joined. 13:09:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:16:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:18:56 s/local clock/local hardware clock/ 13:22:37 -!- ikaros28 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 13:24:41 Looks like there's still a little while to go before the AI singularity: https://zem.fi/tmp/ikea.png 13:28:34 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:28:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 13:33:18 -!- Vorpal has joined. 13:33:18 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 13:33:18 -!- Vorpal has joined. 13:36:40 . o O ( "you have made a simple door very happy today." ) 13:37:59 -!- trout has joined. 13:40:46 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:41:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:42:25 int-e: Part 2 didn't go much better either: https://zem.fi/tmp/ikea2.png 13:48:06 Heh it's not that this cannot happen with humans in a busy call center on the other end... but usually if you call again, you talk to a different person. With AI you'll have the same AI, over and over again... fun :) 13:55:35 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 13:56:36 I didn't really get a very comprehensive answer from the human webchat either, so I guess that's fair. 13:57:27 -!- spiegelau has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:00:02 -!- spiegelau has joined. 14:05:02 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 14:05:46 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: thunderstorm). 14:09:10 -!- variable has joined. 14:12:56 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:33:35 -!- erkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:36:22 -!- mroman has joined. 14:36:42 Taneb: http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/stds/ESOSC-2014-1/ANB.txt <- the assigned number blocks 14:36:59 @tell nortti http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/stds/ESOSC-2014-1/ANB.txt <- the assigned number blocks. 14:36:59 Consider it noted. 14:37:56 also: http://esosc.mroman.ch/stds/ESOSC-2014-1/ESOSC-2014-1-2.html is still up for approval :) 14:38:01 hasn't been formally approved yet 14:39:26 unrevocable should probably spell irrevocable :) 14:41:01 -!- trout has joined. 14:43:46 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:03:25 It should be fixed so that plain text versions of all documents can be downloaded 15:03:41 wob_jonas: Astronomy 15:11:58 -!- spiegelau has quit (Quit: leaving). 15:12:40 -!- variable has joined. 15:15:46 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:41:15 yeh I'm working on a markdown that supports that. 15:43:13 but meh. 15:47:06 -!- trout has joined. 15:49:25 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 15:52:52 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:53:14 -!- hakatashi has joined. 15:54:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:56:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:56:08 -!- Melvar has joined. 16:11:16 you can just click "Save page as" *.txt in most browsers anyway. 16:15:00 html is just more versatile 16:17:51 -!- variable has joined. 16:20:50 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:21:19 mroman: Still is not how I mean; I mean if you are using an external program to download it. 16:28:30 yeh yeh 16:39:50 just use lynx -dump :P 16:49:59 -!- trout has joined. 16:52:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:23:46 -!- variable has joined. 17:25:56 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 17:41:15 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:41:47 -!- tromp has joined. 17:43:25 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:43:37 -!- tromp has joined. 17:54:47 -!- trout has joined. 17:57:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:57:54 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:26:01 -!- variable has joined. 18:26:20 I was writiing some ideas about Scientific Role Playing System. I have considered to not have any character definition points at all and instead you can just define it whatever you want to do, with a few restrictions. http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/scirps.ui/wiki?name=Notes/Pointless What are your opinion about such thing? 18:29:35 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:35:45 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 18:49:45 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57076&oldid=57074 * Fogity * (+76) /* Example programs */ Added a palindrome program 18:58:05 -!- trout has joined. 19:00:24 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:05:44 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:19:43 -!- trout has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 19:20:28 -!- variable has joined. 19:23:45 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:25:09 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:41:37 -!- variable has joined. 19:52:12 -!- tromp has joined. 20:04:03 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 20:08:16 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:15:02 -!- imode has joined. 20:40:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:20 -!- tromp has joined. 20:46:03 -!- mroman has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:48:25 -!- atslash has joined. 21:04:32 -!- erkin has joined. 21:09:31 -!- variable has joined. 21:16:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 21:20:32 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:00 -!- lambdabot has joined. 21:41:01 -!- trout has joined. 21:43:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:54:21 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:54:35 zzo38: nice. can you tell me a bit more? 21:56:34 About what? 21:58:54 About what kind of astronomy you're doing for which you need to get the sub-second precise calendar time on a linux computer. 21:59:51 So far I can just document that that function doesn't work during a leap second. 22:00:56 It is a SQLite extension to use Swiss Ephemeris. The JULIANDAY_UT1 and JULIANDAY_ET functions are similar to the built-in JULIANDAY function but use the algorithms from Swiss Ephemeris instead of those of SQLite (it also uses different arguments). 22:01:17 If the function is called with no arguments then the current date/time will be used, but it won't work properly during leap seconds. 22:01:25 zzo38: but with those, you usually want to compute values for any time, not the current time in particular 22:02:01 I mean, I don't just want to know the moon phase right now, I might want to know what the moon phase will be two days from now, and I don't need it at sub-second accuracy 22:02:03 Yes, I know, it isn't necessarily the current time you want. But if you specify no arguments then the current time is used 22:02:31 Will you publish this code by the way? I'll be a bit interested 22:02:54 Not specifically because I want to use them from SQLite, but as a good example for how to use some of Swiss Ephemeris 22:02:58 Yes it will be published 22:03:23 I'm only interested about the Sun, Moon and Venus though, not other planets. 22:04:32 That is fine, although it still computes for others too (since I think they are all in the same file anyways). If you do not have the ephemeris files it will still work, but it will not be as accurate as if you do have the files. 22:08:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:13:47 -!- variable has joined. 22:16:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:16:39 I also wrote a library to use Swiss Ephemeris with Node.js, however it requires use of N-API, and might not be compatible with the latest version 22:17:29 Nice 22:45:05 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:45:21 -!- trout has joined. 22:48:39 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:57:04 -!- lambdabot has joined. 23:11:54 > 1 23:11:56 1 23:18:39 -!- variable has joined. 23:21:30 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:37:18 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:39:47 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:50:04 -!- trout has joined. 23:53:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 2018-07-29: 00:13:12 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 00:16:01 -!- atslash has joined. 00:19:25 -!- boily has joined. 00:19:28 @metar CYUL 00:19:28 CYUL 290000Z CCB 27024G33KT 6SM -TSRA FEW028CB SCT050 BKN110 BKN240 21/17 A2993 RMK CB1SC3AC1CI1 PRESRR SLP137 DENSITY ALT 900FT 00:21:15 -!- variable has joined. 00:24:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:27:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:30:30 @metar ENVA 00:30:31 ENVA 290020Z 07010KT CAVOK 24/17 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 12011KT 00:47:14 bonsœøœøœirjan. 00:52:24 -!- trout has joined. 00:55:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:55:36 bood evenily. 01:24:16 -!- variable has joined. 01:27:40 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:29:15 -!- boily has quit (Quit: WEEKLY CHICKEN). 01:56:27 -!- trout has joined. 01:59:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:06:50 -!- yaewa has joined. 02:08:39 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:27:39 -!- variable has joined. 02:28:16 @metar ENVA 02:28:17 ENVA 290150Z 10012KT CAVOK 24/17 Q1011 RMK WIND 670FT 13016KT 02:28:34 it feels hotter - or maybe just more humid. 02:30:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 02:58:32 -!- trout has joined. 03:01:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:03:10 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:05:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:06:07 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 03:31:12 -!- variable has joined. 03:34:18 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:37:20 -!- yaewa has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 03:41:04 -!- moei has joined. 04:02:48 -!- trout has joined. 04:05:24 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:34:08 -!- variable has joined. 04:35:08 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:37:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:06:10 -!- trout has joined. 05:09:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:14:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:38:17 -!- variable has joined. 05:40:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:41:40 -!- atslash has joined. 06:10:06 -!- trout has joined. 06:13:36 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:24:58 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 06:42:01 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:42:09 -!- tromp has joined. 06:42:13 -!- variable has joined. 06:45:13 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:12:54 -!- trout has joined. 07:15:54 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:48:56 -!- variable has joined. 07:49:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:10:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:21:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:28:17 -!- trout has joined. 08:30:35 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:42:05 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:58:37 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:59:49 -!- variable has joined. 09:03:28 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:25:08 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:33:51 -!- trout has joined. 09:34:58 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 09:50:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:57:40 [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57077&oldid=57070 * Hakerh400 * (+17039) Added more examples 09:57:48 `? tswtrm 09:57:49 tswtrm? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 09:58:54 . o O ( Too short, want to read more. ) 10:06:21 -!- variable has joined. 10:06:27 [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57078&oldid=57077 * Hakerh400 * (+39) Fixed the code 10:09:54 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:38:33 -!- trout has joined. 10:40:25 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:41:34 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 10:48:38 -!- atslash has joined. 10:53:39 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:14:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:15:29 -!- variable has joined. 11:18:34 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:44:54 -!- atslash has joined. 11:47:17 -!- trout has joined. 11:49:59 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 11:51:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:56:11 -!- atslash has joined. 12:10:24 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 12:20:29 -!- variable has joined. 12:23:10 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 12:35:24 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 12:52:23 -!- trout has joined. 12:55:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:05:18 -!- atslash has joined. 13:09:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 13:28:33 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 13:29:38 -!- variable has joined. 13:30:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 13:33:38 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:01:15 -!- trout has joined. 14:04:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:20:51 -!- lambdabot has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:31:28 -!- lambdabot has joined. 14:33:01 -!- variable has joined. 14:35:59 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 14:56:02 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 15:11:16 -!- trout has joined. 15:14:38 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:23:18 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:24:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:43:01 -!- variable has joined. 15:46:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 16:13:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:14:35 -!- trout has joined. 16:18:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:18:10 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:46:48 -!- variable has joined. 16:50:21 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:13:31 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:18:40 -!- trout has joined. 17:21:47 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:26:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:50:11 -!- variable has joined. 17:53:11 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:01:44 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:11:48 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:15:11 -!- imode has joined. 18:17:37 [[Rosa Parks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57079 * Plokmijnuhby * (+2315) Created page with "Rosa Parks is a language by ~~~, based around bus conflicts and race conditions. == Overview == All calculation in the language is done by devices. The syntax consists of lol 18:18:56 [[List of ideas]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57080&oldid=57023 * Plokmijnuhby * (-157) Removed completed idea 18:19:53 [[Talk:Rosa Parks]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57081 * Oerjan * (+119) Hm 18:21:24 -!- trout has joined. 18:21:50 [[Talk:Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57082&oldid=57081 * Plokmijnuhby * (+183) 18:25:06 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:27:13 -!- atslash has joined. 18:27:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:54:05 -!- variable has joined. 18:57:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:01:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:17:31 that's a pretty good pun 19:27:14 -!- trout has joined. 19:30:49 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 19:39:03 [[Talk:Emoji-gramming]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57083&oldid=55329 * Qwertyu63 * (+402) 19:41:32 hmm finite state machines 19:43:03 -!- fractal has changed nick to Guest55147. 20:00:44 -!- variable has joined. 20:04:00 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 20:34:01 -!- trout has joined. 20:37:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:56:28 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:58:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:00:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:01:40 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:05:32 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:10:33 -!- atslash has joined. 21:12:36 -!- variable has joined. 21:15:47 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:44:13 -!- trout has joined. 21:46:55 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 21:53:22 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: rebooting). 22:04:30 -!- Melvar has joined. 22:05:58 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:20:20 -!- variable has joined. 22:45:09 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 22:50:10 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Neanias * New user account 22:54:21 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57084&oldid=57067 * Neanias * (+134) Add my introduction 22:57:30 -!- boily has joined. 23:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in). 23:00:22 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:05:32 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:09:14 I played the GURPS today; the GM (who also knows about airplane flying) decided my character flying 10 yards/second at full speed is too slow, so instead making it 15 yards/second at minimum, and maximum will be 25 or 30 yards per second 23:09:22 Do you think it is better? 23:13:08 sounds about right. 23:13:15 . o O ( yards per second??? ) 23:13:42 GURPS measures all speeds in yards per second. 23:23:21 -!- atslash has joined. 23:26:11 (In making Scientific Role Playing System, I should use metres per second instead.) 23:34:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:57:53 helloily 2018-07-30: 00:03:05 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:07:23 -!- Cale has joined. 00:07:57 Is it possible in Linux to program a signal handler for SIGPIPE to know why SIGPIPE was signalled and if it is not the one it expects to call whatever the old signal handler was (in case it has already been changed)? 00:11:16 Or else to cause a specific write() to not cause a SIGPIPE signal? 00:15:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:28:08 -!- MDude has joined. 00:28:27 hm why do i have a +R flag... 00:29:46 huh block private messages from unregistered users 00:30:10 i suppose making that default is an anti-spam measure 00:31:03 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:33:25 hm perhaps related to https://freenode.net/news/spambot-attack, which i ironically haven't noticed 00:33:39 ok not very ironic when i'm only on two small channels. 00:39:22 I noticed that too but I removed that flag 01:11:27 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:22:19 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 01:22:26 `? yard 01:22:27 -!- nfd has joined. 01:22:27 yard? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:22:33 -!- nfd has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:22:50 `learn yards is short for "yet another retro distance system". 01:22:53 Learned 'yard': yards is short for "yet another retro distance system". 01:25:03 -!- Melvar has joined. 01:33:27 `5 w 01:33:30 1/1:montreal//Montréal is a city in Canada that somehow is obsessed with Vietnamese cuisine. \ monoidal category//Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object. \ gopher//Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first. \ grue//grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean \ wob_jonas//wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks. 01:33:44 -!- boily has quit (Quit: RETROGRADE CHICKEN). 01:55:01 @metar ENVA 01:55:03 ENVA 300050Z VRB03KT CAVOK 16/15 Q1013 RMK WIND 670FT 11006KT 01:55:24 a brief moment of coolness 02:05:06 (Actually I think I don't need to deal with SIGPIPE, it look like?) 03:13:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:29:01 -!- XorSwap_ has joined. 05:29:25 -!- XorSwap__ has joined. 05:38:59 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:41:54 -!- Vorpal has joined. 05:41:54 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 05:41:54 -!- Vorpal has joined. 05:44:20 -!- tromp has joined. 05:48:46 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:36:42 -!- tromp has joined. 06:41:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 06:58:18 -!- tromp has joined. 07:21:02 [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57085&oldid=57079 * Plokmijnuhby * (+485) 07:24:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:46:03 -!- tromp has joined. 07:56:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:21:43 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:43:46 -!- tromp has joined. 08:57:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:05:15 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:15:23 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:48:00 -!- tromp has joined. 10:51:18 [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57086&oldid=57078 * Hakerh400 * (+287) Added info box 11:57:27 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Wastl * New user account 12:02:35 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57087&oldid=57084 * Wastl * (+188) /* Introductions */ 13:06:15 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:07:25 zzo38: SIGPIPE sucks, it's a stain of unix history. it would have been better if SIGPIPE never existed (that is, the kernel behaved as if it was ignored) and callers of write always checked for errors, but the signal is there for lazy programs that assume that writes just won't fail 13:09:10 If you know that the target is a socket, then you can call send instead of write, but if it's not a socket then send will give an error, so you're out of luck. 13:11:12 If you want to distinguish different sources of SIGPIPE, then you're probably screwed anyway, since multiple instances of the same signal can be collapsed, so you can lose some errors. 13:12:13 The best bet is to set the signal to a no-op signal handler in the whole program and hope that everything copes with that and checks the results of writes. 14:04:23 -!- erkin has joined. 14:18:52 SIGPIPE can be useful if writing to stdout I think, but not for other outputs 14:20:32 (But that would be messy) 14:35:08 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:47:30 -!- arseniiv has joined. 14:50:15 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 14:57:38 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:14:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:23:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:26:49 -!- imode has joined. 16:31:19 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 16:32:05 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:32:08 -!- Cale has joined. 17:07:35 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:08:12 -!- heroux__ has changed nick to heroux. 17:13:22 -!- heroux_ has joined. 17:44:09 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:49:18 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 17:49:21 -!- XorSwap_ has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 17:49:22 -!- XorSwap__ has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 17:58:38 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 18:06:19 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57088&oldid=56746 * Raumaankidwai * (+73) 18:07:27 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57089&oldid=57088 * Raumaankidwai * (-1) /* Pyth */ 18:23:05 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:30:09 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:51:36 -!- heroux_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:51:36 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:51:51 -!- heroux has joined. 19:52:13 -!- heroux_ has joined. 19:53:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:00:31 [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57090&oldid=57085 * Plokmijnuhby * (+71) 20:11:33 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:12:00 zzo38: re yards, a yard is like two pound meters per kilogram, right? 20:12:15 sounds like an entirely sensible unit of measure to use 21:01:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:08:11 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:23:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:23:16 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 21:32:32 -!- il_barbone has joined. 21:33:26 -!- il_barbone has quit (Client Quit). 23:31:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 2018-07-31: 00:17:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:21:45 @metar ENVA 00:21:47 ENVA 302350Z 25009KT CAVOK 20/14 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 27005KT 00:22:21 somehow, it feels a lot hotter. must be side effect of today's xkcd. 00:29:04 -!- tswett has joined. 00:29:30 Hey everyone. 00:30:09 I've got a silly question for you guys. 00:30:17 What mathematical statements are meaningful? 00:30:48 Presumably arithmetic statements are meaningful. 00:31:20 Suppose I've got a computer program P which enumerates arithmetic statements. 00:31:35 Is the statement "all statements enumerated by P are true" meaningful? 00:32:55 that's a pretty deep philosophical questions on which people disagree. 00:33:04 Crap. 00:33:11 *-s 00:33:50 For the time being, I'm going to assume that *only* arithmetic statements are meaningful. 00:34:25 In particular, the statement "all statements enumerated by P are meaningful" is *not* meaningful. 00:35:10 intuitionists might have a different answer than classical mathematicians, in particular. 00:35:25 and ultrafinitists yet another. 00:35:51 Intuitionists are likely to doubt that the Goldbach hypothesis is meaningful. 00:36:16 unless it can proved or disproved. 00:36:27 (preferably using intuitionist methods) 00:36:28 Right. 00:37:38 Now, I've got a sheet of paper here. 00:37:53 On this sheet of paper, I wrote down every single arithmetic statement that I believe is true. 00:38:07 that sounds pretty dense. 00:38:07 (It's a very large sheet of paper, and that took me a very long time to do.) 00:38:34 did it collapse into a black hole due to the bekenstein bound? 00:38:42 Nope. 00:39:07 Anyway, just now I wrote on the sheet of paper: "Let U be the formal system whose axioms are all of the statements written above." 00:39:24 Now, below that, do you think I should write "U is consistent"? 00:39:38 (I wrote that sentence at the bottom, of course.) 00:42:01 not necessary. you might be uncertain whether arithmetic is consistent. 00:42:05 *ily 00:42:54 although then you get into questions of what you mean by "true" in an inconsistent system. 00:42:54 Hmmmm. 00:43:05 (other than "everything is true") 00:43:14 But I believe that the natural numbers are a model of arithmetic. 00:43:17 Or do I? 00:43:30 that would seem to imply they're consistent. 00:43:51 godel's completeness theorem and all. 00:44:14 If I don't believe in the meaningfulness of anything besides arithmetic statements, then I can't believe that the natural numbers are a model of arithmetic. 00:44:21 Because that's not an arithmetic statement. 00:44:25 except that presupposes ZFC, which implies arithmetic. 00:44:48 So, in turn, I have no reason to believe that U is consistent. 00:44:54 yay! 00:44:57 formalism ftw. 01:02:42 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:05:05 "Do you wish to compact all local and offline folders to save disk space? This will save about 628 GB." - I have my doubts. 01:05:41 secretly, it's encouraging you to shred your harddrive in anticipation of an FBI raid. 01:22:33 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 01:26:58 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:29:19 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:12:36 -!- moei has joined. 03:55:35 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:56:36 -!- MDude has joined. 04:07:16 `icode t̚ 04:07:17 ​[U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+031A COMBINING LEFT ANGLE ABOVE] 04:12:17 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:33:27 -!- somewhatmoony has changed nick to totallymoony. 04:55:03 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:16:30 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 05:18:28 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 05:52:12 -!- erkin has joined. 07:16:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 07:25:32 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:59:45 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 08:16:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:17:41 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:20:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:33:30 [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57091&oldid=57090 * Plokmijnuhby * (+147) 09:38:58 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:41:32 so, I'm used to the convention from C and other languages that I put whitespace on the inside of a comment marker if the comment is natural language text, but no whitespace if it's code temporarily disabled (except when there's a tokenizing ambiguity from omitting the whitespace). but should I be using this convention in VBA? It looks sort of ugly 09:41:33 because the comment marker apostrophe looks so much more unsubstantial than slashes or sharps. 09:55:37 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:56:48 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:57:31 -!- erdic has joined. 10:09:49 -!- erdic has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:10:22 -!- erdic has joined. 10:31:23 -!- lambdabot has joined. 12:28:09 wob_jonas: I believe that the only correct style guidance for commented-out code is to have none. 12:28:34 NOOOO! 12:28:58 I mean, yes, that part is fine 12:29:12 my question is, should I use whitespace for when it's a textual comment? 12:30:04 that's the much more common case for my code, since I'm in the habit of commenting out code blocks with ifdefs or if conditions rather than putting a // before each line 12:31:32 mind you, VBA doesn't have ifdef, so there I can't do that 12:36:32 wob_jonas: I think I put whitespace in all cases, including commented out code. 12:37:05 (though indeed most of the time it's #if 0 / #endif, when I'm coding C or C++) 12:53:58 [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57092&oldid=50418 * Wastl * (+2) /* Example Program */ Corrected cat until EOF 13:52:50 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:20:40 `pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/treatment/ 14:20:41 pbflist http://pbfcomics.com/comics/treatment/: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion b_jonas Cale 15:21:14 AAAARGH! 15:23:27 apparently the VBA parser requires a space between an identifier and an ampersand operator, because it can actually parse an ampersand as a sigil too 15:23:44 the manual didn't even mention that this dialect of basic supports sigils 15:23:55 great 15:25:09 I mean, it makes sense in retrospect, but it's annoying because I already auto-generated code for some long string concatenations that I have to regenerate nw 15:39:54 wob_jonas: you should really give your operators room to breathe :P 15:41:17 yeah, that's sort of my former senior programmer said too, that he wants spaces around operators as the most important whitespacing rule in code conventions 15:42:27 Spaces around close parentheses but not open parantheses 15:42:42 Like this: "foo(bar ) +1" 15:42:51 lol 15:43:15 You know, seeing that has made me realise I haven't eaten in over 24 hours. I should get some food 15:43:54 you at least made sure to keep hydrated, right? 15:44:58 wow im really behind on pbf 15:46:02 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:47:32 I've got myself a bowl of ceral 15:50:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:16:01 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 16:18:38 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 16:21:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:25:27 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 16:29:16 I missed #esolang while being almost entirely in other places two weeks prior 16:29:25 #esoteric* of course 16:31:02 though I don’t read thoroughly and usually have nothing to add, it’s fun or/and useful 16:43:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:46:54 I'm thinking it'd be nice to extend the idea of reversible computing to analog comptuers. 16:48:05 As far as I'm aware, modeling analog computers would involve using continuous functions. 16:49:31 And apparently if you have a reversible function that's also continuous, it's a homeomorphism? 17:03:34 if the function R → R is continuous and invertible, it’s strictly monotone AFAIR. For functions R^n → R^n IDK 17:05:20 a homeomorphism is a topological notion, and R or R^n do admit various topologies not too non-standard to not consider them 17:06:32 or I’m too strict 17:06:56 Yeah, I was wondering where to look next since I wasn't sure what to make of things suddenly veering itno topology. 17:20:14 I think it could be described using terms from basic [multidimensional] analysis entirely, and no special topological treatment seem to have to be used to find something here 17:20:45 no need to swim into deep waters for every small task 17:27:15 Monotonic functions seem to be in the direction of what I'm looking for, though for brining things back to computing it'd be nice to have functions with more than one argument. 17:28:37 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57093&oldid=57089 * Raumaankidwai * (-2) /* Pyth */ 17:34:09 That just leaves me wondering how to order complex numbers/tuples for the purpose of having functions on them be monotonic, though. 17:34:38 Basic multidimensional analysis is proably something I should look into, thanks. 17:36:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:38:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:49:32 OK, I think my laptop's hard drive might not be working 17:50:14 Where's a good place to buy a replacement 17:50:51 -!- moei has joined. 17:50:55 newegg is pretty decent 17:51:10 what are the symptoms? 17:53:07 Booting fails and says "try running fsck manually" or something like that 17:53:28 Booted onto a USB an ran fsk manually, get a ton of "Buffer I/O error" 17:54:04 Don't know enough to know what's relevant from this output, but it doesn't look friendly 17:54:14 you could query the smart data smartctl -a /dev/sda ? 17:54:22 (or whatever the hdd device is) 17:54:32 yeah, that sounds like a hard drive failure 17:54:44 but yes, indeed 17:54:53 I'd recommend immediate backups with ddrescue or the like 17:55:16 There's nothing on it I particularly want to keep 17:56:17 ...I've got literally no idea how to remove the hard drive 17:56:18 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:56:43 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:57:03 hmmmm power drill 17:57:50 what kind of laptop? 17:57:52 :P 17:58:00 Some kind of low-end HP 17:58:04 newer ones can be pretty annoying 17:58:36 I suppose there are soldered on SSDs and similar sins. 18:00:25 Might just be new-laptop time 18:01:05 So... anyone recommend a new laptop? 18:01:47 thinkpad earlier than around 2013 18:02:05 hah 18:02:34 (but I have no better advice; my last personal laptop was one of th Acer One netbooks) 18:05:02 I've also heard decent things about eurocoms or some other clevos 18:05:16 but expensive 18:27:13 MDude: That just leaves me wondering how to order complex numbers/tuples for the purpose of having functions on them be monotonic, though. => you most likely don’t need this total ordering. It is in a sense incompatible with more than one dimensions 19:19:22 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:26:12 -!- imode has joined. 19:30:11 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:33:40 Yeah, it's just a question of whether continuity and bijection are, in combination, also incompatible with more than one dimensions. 19:36:19 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:38:32 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:47:28 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:02:30 -!- imode has joined. 20:06:54 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:12:11 -!- sprocklem has joined. 20:14:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 20:16:02 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:23:36 MDude: they are compatible, look at identity function. It’s always continuous and bijective. Invertible affine transformations are both, also. Now you can slightly “deform” an affine transformation and obtain more sofisticated examples. I’m not going to list all the possible functions, though, as I haven’t studied this topic 20:26:31 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:26:45 `olist 1131 20:26:46 olist 1131: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 20:26:48 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 20:28:33 Yeah, I just need to figure out what area I need to study to learn some examples less trivial than the identity function and simple inversion. 20:29:27 Affine transformations are rpobably what I'm looking for, so again, thanks. 20:34:30 -!- imode has joined. 20:38:30 Yeah, this seems to be what I'm looking for. 20:41:42 I think I got confused at some point and dismissed roation when I shouldn't. 20:57:25 It also seems like a lot of this could be implemented pretty well as optical systems, which would would be handy. 21:31:36 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 21:34:33 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:53:27 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:35:03 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 23:08:44 -!- boily has joined. 23:10:01 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 23:10:27 -!- sprocklem has joined. 23:27:26 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:27:52 -!- Melvar has joined. 23:39:23 That's a lot of olist 23:42:36 Sgeo_: true 23:42:39 well done 23:44:29 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2).