< 1533341815 419561 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533342125 384786 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1533343634 493276 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1533343927 766838 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-told < 1533343927 827054 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie said 16h 22m 37s ago: Good point, I didn't even consider them bots. < 1533344036 235190 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :`doag quotes < 1533344037 686182 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11585:2018-07-21 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580:2018-07-01 addquote Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. \ 11551:2018-05-08 addquote Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old shachaf, not at all I would never suggest that i < 1533344076 393555 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533344320 434578 :sjums!~sjums@ip68-5-220-189.oc.oc.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533344410 741785 :sjums!~sjums@ip68-5-220-189.oc.oc.cox.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1533344692 416283 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1533345201 932011 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1533345468 782618 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :the last panel of the last oots isn't entirely reassuring. < 1533346334 763308 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh thank god, there was a preference setting to hide the left navigation bar on PPCG again < 1533346403 773794 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-idstrpazhurtmgll JOIN :#esoteric < 1533346515 992307 :sparklefarkle!~sparklefa@74-124-99-0-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533346587 830098 :sparklefarkle!~sparklefa@74-124-99-0-radius.dynamic.acsalaska.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533348143 8849 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533348454 9224 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1533350798 967561 :pixdamix!~pixdamix@cpe-70-119-64-201.tx.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1533350815 249626 :pixdamix!~pixdamix@cpe-70-119-64-201.tx.res.rr.com QUIT :K-Lined < 1533351552 501922 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533352852 741050 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: /dev/null is full < 1533352904 22595 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533354442 757133 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533354738 712945 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1533354883 262716 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533355046 20934 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1533356743 567428 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533356937 491149 :ForexTrader!~ForexTrad@c-71-229-201-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533356963 13710 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1533357033 24140 :ForexTrader!~ForexTrad@c-71-229-201-82.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533358642 679345 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533358853 310355 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533358989 869390 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to make a total of floating numbers without losing precision must you put them in order, or accumulate them by log2 or whatever? (You might also have to consider the positive and negative numbers separately?) < 1533360536 329208 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533360746 29774 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1533361451 493220 :Vorpal_!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1533362423 382458 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533362594 300640 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533363785 385495 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1533363841 210022 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1533364298 255942 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533364482 83440 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1533364917 753377 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533365915 387065 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1533366165 449680 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533366364 310974 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533368052 920426 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533368273 23755 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1533368347 385383 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533369005 390997 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1533369951 287212 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533369952 666671 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1533370163 309652 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533370718 519900 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533371484 572599 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533371841 582613 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533372056 75160 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1533373270 465791 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi! < 1533373272 375711 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Learned 'hodl': Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi! < 1533373746 492588 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533373962 303739 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533375670 632659 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533375878 32605 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1533377504 868103 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533377573 672127 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-idstrpazhurtmgll QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1533377698 25625 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1533379430 680258 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533379617 341441 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533381324 344047 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533381494 22238 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1533382055 193884 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1533383169 515161 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533383217 433135 :wob_jonas!b03f18c9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.201 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533383284 700033 :wob_jonas!b03f18c9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.201 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: wow. that is something. (re Sir Robin in game of life) < 1533383354 7606 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1533383564 318874 :ululate9!~ululate@pkos006-031.kcn.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1533383612 243688 :ululate9!~ululate@pkos006-031.kcn.ne.jp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1533384440 264327 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RANDo14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57219&oldid=54869 5* 03Kamish 5* (+54) 10 < 1533384651 307614 :codex2064!~codex2064@139.0.188.69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533384671 829332 :codex2064!~codex2064@139.0.188.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533385071 752760 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533385243 454774 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533385346 932925 :MillerBoss1!~MillerBos@123.214.87.48 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533385417 719262 :MillerBoss1!~MillerBos@123.214.87.48 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533385778 20815 :rej5!~rej@42-98-76-136.static.netvigator.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1533385819 875402 :rej5!~rej@42-98-76-136.static.netvigator.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1533386145 148605 :Turner92!~Turner92@117.0.68.120 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533386465 439140 :Turner92!~Turner92@117.0.68.120 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1533386926 894296 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533387149 123709 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1533388535 335060 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1533388749 754540 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying... < 1533388842 58360 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric > 1533388992 691601 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07MIX (Knuth)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57220&oldid=53097 5* 03B jonas 5* (+147) 10clarify that this is not an esoteric language > 1533389021 183145 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57221&oldid=30898 5* 03B jonas 5* (+410) 10credit Conway with Turing-completeness; add like ten categories; link LifeWiki < 1533389042 311483 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds > 1533389883 707037 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57222&oldid=57221 5* 03B jonas 5* (+187) 10mention still active research < 1533390279 935553 :Lean1!~lean@14.red-83-37-124.dynamicip.rima-tde.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533390291 602785 :Lean1!~lean@14.red-83-37-124.dynamicip.rima-tde.net PART :#esoteric > 1533390429 733911 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:RAM014]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57223 5* 03B jonas 5* (+612) 10a mistaken statement < 1533390722 262963 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533390932 48187 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds > 1533391540 866840 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57224&oldid=57222 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1346) 10explicit definition; program size < 1533391939 116397 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1533392264 496935 :wob_jonas!b03f18c9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.201 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client > 1533392307 798246 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Game of Life14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57225&oldid=57224 5* 03B jonas 5* (-4) 10consistent spelling of neighbor and behavior > 1533392472 763482 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57226 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1478) 10Created page with "'''Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton''' is a [[Cellular automaton]] published in 1966. The state of the automaton is a square grid filling the whole plane, in which..." < 1533392643 5460 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533392648 513686 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533392811 286948 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds > 1533392887 185685 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cellular automaton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57227&oldid=45557 5* 03B jonas 5* (+482) 10history > 1533392958 771147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57228&oldid=57168 5* 03B jonas 5* (+48) 10 > 1533393291 798031 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cellular automaton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57229&oldid=57227 5* 03B jonas 5* (+454) 10/* Relation to esoteric programming */ clarify that every CA is an esolang > 1533393425 700602 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Cellular automaton14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57230&oldid=57229 5* 03B jonas 5* (+2) 10/* Relation to esoteric programming */ > 1533393587 492520 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Prehistory of esoteric programming languages14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57231&oldid=49933 5* 03B jonas 5* (+406) 10add cellular automata < 1533394086 668567 :wob_jonas!b03f18c9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.201 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533394209 486082 :wob_jonas!b03f18c9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.201 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering what the oldest esolang with still active research is. Game of Life is definitely old and has a large active research community, and dc might qualify and might just predate it. But then I realized that lambda calculus, or lambda calculus with some specific evaluation order, probably trumps anything else. < 1533394312 983281 :wob_jonas!b03f18c9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.201 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Them and Turing-machines. They were both first published in 1936. < 1533394513 18879 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric < 1533394645 879386 :wob_jonas!b03f18c9@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.201 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1533394722 110684 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1533395795 736369 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero > 1533396691 819625 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rosa Parks14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57232&oldid=57091 5* 03Plokmijnuhby 5* (+327) 10 < 1533396934 261272 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds > 1533397346 599582 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Rosa Parks14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57233&oldid=57232 5* 03Plokmijnuhby 5* (+1) 10 < 1533397432 498809 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1533397561 10571 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Client Quit < 1533397675 298567 :rosseaux26!~rosseaux@14.47.75.69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533397765 950226 :rosseaux26!~rosseaux@14.47.75.69 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533398752 246509 :missnomer2!~missnomer@190-108-110-220.city10.com.br JOIN :#esoteric < 1533398765 268179 :missnomer2!~missnomer@190-108-110-220.city10.com.br QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533399207 305698 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :2HI have implemented a SQLite extension to download files from the internet by using libcurl, but it involves a rather klugy way to detect if sqlite3_interrupt() has been called. < 1533399548 526471 :TriangleSausage!~TriangleS@213.129.49.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533399642 215430 :TriangleSausage!~TriangleS@213.129.49.22 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533399850 570043 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533399862 741549 :duckgoose15!~duckgoose@123.21.233.126 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533400214 578841 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1533400221 927278 :duckgoose15!~duckgoose@123.21.233.126 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1533400275 170583 :Nick`!~Nick`@179.127.150.177 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533400641 436805 :Nick`!~Nick`@179.127.150.177 QUIT :Ping timeout: 248 seconds < 1533400655 859468 :Ckat16!~Ckat@46.149.83.96 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533400676 918180 :Ckat16!~Ckat@46.149.83.96 QUIT :Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.)) < 1533401227 232059 :Ryuzaki!~Ryuzaki@116.212.150.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533401628 297462 :Ryuzaki!~Ryuzaki@116.212.150.53 QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1533401827 823813 :dh1284!~dh128@116.104.201.87 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533401878 752076 :dh1284!~dh128@116.104.201.87 QUIT :Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)) < 1533402853 438330 :borsin15!~borsin@188.114.139.121 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533402881 193006 :borsin15!~borsin@188.114.139.121 QUIT :Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.)) < 1533403270 526045 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-hranvftgtfjkqltv QUIT :Excess Flood < 1533403294 360767 :Lord_of_-!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-gcwlqgovtkmbjiai JOIN :#esoteric < 1533403631 311682 :shikhin_!shikhin@lambdaos.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1533403704 795494 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1533403705 224102 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1533403705 907673 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1533403822 420181 :lifthrasiir!~lifthrasi@ec2-52-79-98-81.ap-northeast-2.compute.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1533404139 147742 :Quokka25!~Quokka@37.114.162.85 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533404175 547361 :Quokka25!~Quokka@37.114.162.85 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533404270 592962 :catfuneral!~catfunera@219.255.28.133 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533404306 649767 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-sqinqpcweyazvftq JOIN :#esoteric < 1533404336 910944 :Lord_of_-!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-gcwlqgovtkmbjiai QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1533404422 264889 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1533404616 837033 :paul2520!~paul2520@45.55.201.68 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533404616 837078 :catfuneral!~catfunera@219.255.28.133 QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1533404619 303135 :paul2520!~paul2520@45.55.201.68 QUIT :Changing host < 1533404619 303180 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533404875 770024 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think someone ask about SQLite extension to use Swiss Ephemeris (to see the example code), and I have posted it now (although some features are not currently implemented, including sunrise/sunset times, and some other stuff) < 1533405117 623980 :MikeSpears15!~MikeSpear@KD059129067067.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1533405193 452176 :MikeSpears15!~MikeSpear@KD059129067067.ppp-bb.dion.ne.jp QUIT :Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)) < 1533405894 483884 :evil!~evil@104.211.217.204 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533405964 649040 :evil!~evil@104.211.217.204 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533407861 185173 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1533408232 609564 :EdSaperia20!~EdSaperia@182.253.121.61 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533408575 385800 :EdSaperia20!~EdSaperia@182.253.121.61 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1533409770 50331 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533409967 871296 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You've all heard the tale of Scheherazade, in which an evil sultan vows that every evening he would marry a beautiful maiden and every morning he would get that maiden executed? < 1533410008 599377 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently in at least some variants, the sultan actually vowed that every evening he'd marry the *most* beautiful maiden of his empire. < 1533410077 396158 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in reality, wouldn't that cause one of those unending arms races, when eventually every remaining maiden tries to deliberately make themselves more and more ugly, to avoid this fate? < 1533410230 952742 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, maybe it would, and the sultan was stupid to make such a vow no matter what and the simplest solution would have been to get him assasinated as soon as possible after people find that he is willing to follow through his vow, but still, I haven't heard of that arms race part in any retelling of the story. < 1533410688 262897 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1533410708 83729 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533411569 275903 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1533412525 830724 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if his opinion who is most beautiful may differ somewhat from one of those maiden? Or if it is about equal and is difficult to know? < 1533412558 404990 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I don't know. < 1533412561 979080 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't there. < 1533412608 395242 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should just ask the mirror from Snow White. < 1533412623 306306 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, what if it was an environment with commonplace arranged marriages and the status gained from having a daughter marry the sultan is worth the high chance of her execution < 1533412645 733996 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine that if beauty is subjective and its measure used by the oath is not easy to predict, that would just speed up the arms race because every maiden will want to make herself so obviously ugly that by no matter what measure she isn't among the top ten thousand most beautiful ones. < 1533412651 877872 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: worth to whome though... < 1533412659 52945 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1533412659 281334 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :*whom < 1533412671 425528 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, the people arranging the marriage (probably the poor girl's father) < 1533412708 403002 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, but the maidens themselves would probably find a way to become ugly without the permission of their fater. The surviving girls at least, soon. < 1533412718 39924 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: So unfair. Almost like real life. < 1533413913 894758 :foxcookie!~foxcookie@201.255.173.167 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533413957 497039 :foxcookie!~foxcookie@201.255.173.167 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533414849 782807 :KobrAs29!~KobrAs@190-206-8-79.dyn.dsl.cantv.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533414890 885435 :KobrAs29!~KobrAs@190-206-8-79.dyn.dsl.cantv.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533415296 321058 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533415527 773711 :benoliver99916!~benoliver@37.114.188.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533415545 516551 :benoliver99916!~benoliver@37.114.188.9 QUIT :Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.)) < 1533415753 849973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages? < 1533415753 910957 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry, no messages today. < 1533415860 556465 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:RAM0 < 1533415870 776777 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533415886 28031 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1533415920 820108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes, I was kind-of assuming you couldn't put an oracle there < 1533415940 467330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also there's not much point linking me to talk pages of my own languages, I'm likely to notice anything put there anyway) < 1533415955 907858 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's why I put it there < 1533415970 386187 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but since you asked lambdabot for @messages, I corrected him when he said no messages today < 1533415976 769986 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I meant was that the language is still TC if it's initialised randomly > 1533416001 365011 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07RAM014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57234&oldid=54505 5* 03Ais523 5* (+16) 10/* Data storage */ clarify ambiguous sentence > 1533416032 800402 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:RAM014]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57235&oldid=57223 5* 03Ais523 5* (+247) 10clarified < 1533416035 627690 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? then it has a randomness source... hmm wait, that doesn't increase the power of R. right. < 1533416059 451101 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's not obvious what "initialize randomly" means in a machine with bigints in each cell < 1533416083 303273 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it's not a source of randomness if you can make no assumptions about the memory... it might be initialized. < 1533416119 606424 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: oh wait. sorry, what ais523 wrote here and on the page are different things < 1533416142 806120 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I wrote it a bit more clearly on the page < 1533416170 22330 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1533416171 876490 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533416175 236642 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, the page looks fine to me < 1533416279 313166 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, it is fixed < 1533416377 292439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell tswett re your oversized digit notation, have you seen hyperbinary? it's basically binary except you're allowed to use 2 as a digit as well, and is mostly relevant as a method of defining the stern-brocot sequence < 1533416377 351163 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1533416558 985674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@tell Phantom_Hoover I think "elementary" in cellular automata means that it isn't a collection of smaller components; there were already known Game of Life knightships that didn't rely on universal constructors, e.g. the half-baked knightship, which relied on multiple knightship-ish components that sent beams of generalised-gliders out to stabilise each other < 1533416559 47014 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :Consider it noted. < 1533416661 404006 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That exclamation by Phantom_Hoover made me make some improvements to the Game of Life article on our wiki, although of course it still doesn't contain much of the vast knowledge mathematicians now have of Game of Life. < 1533416689 238947 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or more like, inspired me to make some improvements, seeing that such a popular esolang has such a bad article. < 1533416706 921814 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's an entire wiki for the game of life < 1533416715 339806 :jrg28!~jrg@14.186.163.172 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533416715 746300 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's not much point duplicating it here < 1533416724 421360 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I linked it. two wikis at least, I think. < 1533416745 95039 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, isn't that what i said when taneb asked < 1533416752 416969 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was still worth to increase the article from stub length, and may still be worth to grow it a bit, just because it's such an important language. < 1533416755 470156 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ive already forgotten tbqh) < 1533416766 453313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric : elementary = not a giant million cell machine engineered to build a copy of itself along a certain vector then take itself apart < 1533416772 671060 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are entire books on the Lambda calculus too, but it deserves a good article on our wiki still. < 1533416817 888812 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@213.202.60.99 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1533416825 242642 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the Sir Robin article that PH linked to has the word "elementary" linked to a page where that concept is clearly described, and it is what ais says it means. < 1533416843 507346 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :tbqh the game of life isn't that interesting from an esolang perspective because a very small subset of what's known about it suffices for TCness < 1533416901 845897 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think the 'microscale' engineering needed to e.g. build a replicator is the real meat of it < 1533416930 95107 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: I don't see how this speaks against it being an esolang < 1533416935 374573 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then I was wondering if Game of Life, born in 1970, was the *oldest* esolang with still active research. I looked at dc, since people still occasionally write new obfus in it, which sort of counts as "active research", but I can't determine for sure whether dc is older or newer than Game of Life. < 1533416951 917366 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm. or perhaps you just find the fiddling boring < 1533416954 882647 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the game of life is interesting because instead of an explicit list of commands, it provides a number of components which feel a bit like they're randomly generated < 1533416972 234015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of which are useless, some of which happen to have functionality that can be pieced together into a TC language < 1533416991 235228 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Then I decided that the question is stupid, because both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are so fucking old they probably trump everything, both having been published in 1936. < 1533417015 945760 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about the analytical engine's language? < 1533417017 669072 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are still languages that people research. < 1533417035 405904 :jrg28!~jrg@14.186.163.172 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1533417039 938843 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I almost wrote earlier that neither lambda calculus not Turing machines are esolangs. < 1533417042 993256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, basic untyped lambda calculus is unlikely to have much research left, people mostly just make derivatives of it < 1533417061 984187 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, I guess that's true < 1533417115 596402 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: I think they are esolangs, only without a fixed syntax, but that doesn't make them less of esolangs. the execution model is complete enough. < 1533417135 258982 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, perhaps. You prove subject reduction, so the Church-Rosser proof carries over to whatever typed system you really study. < 1533417144 622217 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we accept languages with no fixed definition of how they do IO or even deliver a yes-no result and they never halt, then why wouldn't we allow no fixed syntax? < 1533417168 40515 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm trying to say that they're not esoteric enough. < 1533417176 479155 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus, ais523 has submitted some articles of his new esolangs that have no fixed syntax, and do you want to go against ais523's claim that those are esolangs? < 1533417183 667695 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: oh! < 1533417185 287260 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1533417207 694639 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the ambiguity isn't your fault. :) < 1533417223 293566 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they're esoteric in the sense that they're Turing-tarpits, being Turing-complete but its full ruleset being very small < 1533417225 414600 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I can hardly blame you for not reading my mind. < 1533417248 694816 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And few people use them for actual practical programming < 1533417296 551249 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not because it's unpopular, but because they're not very suitable, because just like most other tarpits, they're not rich enough < 1533417325 229372 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I would probably say that Turing machines are more esoteric than the lambda calculus, because the latter is an actual viable target language for functional programming. < 1533417366 252554 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, i didn't say it didn't have a place on the esolang wiki just that the most interesting stuff about it involves more than computation < 1533417370 799555 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :also true < 1533417372 61245 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(so clearly we disagree on the richness of lambda calculus) < 1533417411 836655 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I certainly agree that Turing-machines are more esoteric < 1533417422 940072 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i haven't actually researched the history involved but it seems to me that the lambda calculus is clearly the richer, more useful computational system; but turing machines were of more scientific interest because they're very clearly physically realisable < 1533417510 104569 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: I think they were of more scientific interest exactly because they're esoteric. they have a strange execution time so asking how fast you can compute something on a Turing-machine is nontrivial and different from the execution time on normal machines; < 1533417536 790991 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's a 'normal' machine, in 1930-whatever? < 1533417601 826098 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :finding the smallest universal Turing-machine or the largest number a small Turing-machine can compute gets nontrivial quickly (although there are similarly simple golf questions about finding the smallest universal combinator or something) < 1533417602 164306 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've often wondered why turing is the Big Name in the field of early formal computation when church was slightly earlier, he proved essentially the same thing and his formalism has gone on to be vastly more influential in modern computing < 1533417656 854037 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: so you're saying that we have to measure the esotericness of a language compared to its age, and there's not many other languages in their age to compare to? < 1533417671 128071 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? this isn't about 'esotericness' < 1533417792 621714 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :but anyway, especially early on when 'what will physical computers be able to do' was presumably an important new question, the fact that turing's formal machine could clearly be mapped to the operation of an (idealised) physical computer would have made results like universality far more important than they were for the lambda calculus < 1533417801 117850 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that's true, but there's still, I guess, arithmetic notations, which existed back then and could count as very limited programming languages, < 1533417806 366237 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at the Z3... "Data memory: 64 words with a length of 22 bits" "Program memory: Punched celluloid tape" < 1533417823 443837 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in particular in 1980 Hilbert considered the set of Diophantine equations, which you could consider an early esolang actually, so there are other languages to compare < 1533417840 709797 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, Diophantine equations might be the earliest esolang that still have active research < 1533417895 21653 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1533417983 378517 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: yes, but didn't people seriously start to consider building physical computers later than lambda-calculus was published, unless the legends about Babbage are true (they sound as exaggerated as the Da Vinci ones)? < 1533418053 48221 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't know that much about the actual history! i think they were seriously considering it well before they actually built any < 1533418085 740749 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :like i've always kind of assumed turing had physical realisation in mind when he came up with the turing machine because, well, why else would you come up with anything so painfully awkward < 1533418102 804430 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: but how much before? only two decades, or five decades? < 1533418108 700660 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1533418176 131115 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: maybe the point was to have something that could obviously be built in principle (modulo the infinite tape length) :) < 1533418181 15135 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems like some of those legends about Babbage are true, because he built a pretty good mechanical calculator, perhaps better than any before. < 1533418193 924455 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e, precisely < 1533418204 995143 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mechanical computers were in wide use prior to LC. < 1533418218 832239 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :mechanical calculating hardware was in wide use prior to LC. < 1533418219 683347 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: how does one build a random access memory, really? I mean, imagine you didn't know how it was done... < 1533418231 257299 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1533418241 348499 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell the earliest programmable hardware was looms. < 1533418305 95451 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: that's true, I have a photo of one in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-khm-kunstkammer-calculator.jpg < 1533418313 282981 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :noice. < 1533418317 423952 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :beautiful hardware. < 1533418364 250526 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that one is clearly a decorative one, probably not much used in reality, but was probably also working (for some value of working), so at that point mechanical calculators must have been "cheap" enough that you would consider giving one as a useless gift to a king < 1533418391 456925 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the description said something about how it was used by court astronomers or something < 1533418393 577650 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely. just look at the history of cash registers. < 1533418397 363546 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so maybe it wasn't purely decorative < 1533418445 234756 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it was somewhat practical, but also beautifully decorative, like many other items in that exhibition, including utensils and grooming tools < 1533418460 230815 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WLANL_-_jpa2003_-_Jaquardweefgetouw_03.jpg looks impressive < 1533418466 163948 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though some of them did look so richly decorated that I can hardly imagine they're practical to use < 1533418502 942064 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, mechanical computers were used to calculate ballistic trajectories in the navies around the world well up through the early 1900's. < 1533418519 358243 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the Antikythera mechanism is claimed to be the oldest mechanical computer we know of, and it's from the *antiquities*, and it's one specialized for astronomical calculations < 1533418535 603643 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I guess you're right < 1533418565 718212 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just plopped into this discussion, what's it about? < 1533418567 733227 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps there were actually languages of that age to compare to, even if I know close to nil about them < 1533418603 900193 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I started by asking if Game of Life is the oldest esolang with still active research in it, then wondered if Turing-machines fit the bill, < 1533418609 788106 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahhh. < 1533418619 572200 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yeah turing machines fit the bill lol. < 1533418625 570004 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: then it followed up by a discussion of whether Turing-machines are an esoteric language, and how you even define esoteric language, < 1533418627 308427 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :persistent TMs are even more obscure. < 1533418671 435154 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then about old physically built computers < 1533418690 664153 :BackUP25!~BackUP@183.238.170.226 JOIN :#esoteric < 1533418732 660298 :BackUP25!~BackUP@183.238.170.226 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1533418753 949689 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually wonder if an abacus counts. < 1533418759 45763 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My favourite item from that exhibition, though, is a purely decorative one: a statuette https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Gefesselter_Prometheus_(Hagenauer) of which I didn't manage to make good enough quality photos < 1533418759 862730 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hehe.) < 1533418829 251360 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there were big difficulties making photos in a dark room with ugly uneven directional lighting and lots of reflective glass cabinets with all four doors open arranged through a large room and other visitors and no tripods allowed and < 1533418873 586657 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :me having only a compact camera that isn't really ideal for that sort of challenge, even though I definitely really like that camera and think it was really worth its price and have served me well so far. < 1533418896 132996 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: counts for what? < 1533418906 548170 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :as the "oldest computer". < 1533418962 812383 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: an abacus counts, adds, and with some care, multiplies as well < 1533418963 913921 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1533419002 96279 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: but didn't the babylonian scribes also add and multiply on clay tablets too? < 1533419003 758949 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: ayyyy there's the pun. :P < 1533419055 299796 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: we're quickly approaching snakes and log tables, I see. < 1533419057 3400 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps such a scribe or group of scribes could count as a computer, and programmable too if their liege orders them to do a specific calculation < 1533419086 51162 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(beware of adders, they are venomous) < 1533419103 275783 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, some people make the case that the universe is a giant computer, and it's clearly older than anything invented by humans < 1533419119 134792 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think you basically need to discount anything that relies on the human mind as a computer < 1533419121 691602 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yeah, I heard that pun already < 1533419123 11052 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1533419141 520147 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer < 1533419163 648381 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :the fickleness of linguistic drift strikes again < 1533419164 973989 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :PH: relies in what sense? all computers built so far rely on the human mind to repair and work for more than a few decades continuously < 1533419179 611732 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/repair and/repair so that they/ < 1533419193 188658 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :to actually perform its computation < 1533419207 498238 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i refuse to believe you can be confused on what i mean by this except for the sake of pedantry < 1533419216 740053 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there have been plans for computers that last for longer, but I don't think any have been built yet < 1533419311 50737 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I'm not impressed by how well some computers launched in space manage to work for decades under physically very limiting conditions, mind you < 1533419513 657793 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That the Voyager 1 has had a working computer and able to contact us still ever since 1977 is definitely one of the crowning jewels of human-built technology so far. < 1533419515 374754 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, we *can* build computer hardware to last, and be fault-tolerant and redundant, especially when it doesn't need to be fast. < 1533419549 844160 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: theoretically yes, but I don't think anyone put together the money for it yet < 1533419552 288753 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the longest-lasting computer we can build? < 1533419594 416777 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I thought it was sufficiently distant that its bandwidth had dropped below the rate required to accomplish anything useful with the communications? < 1533419600 904009 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm hard pressed to think of a market for it, beyond space crafts (and some other hardware that is hard to access. industrial, perhaps. or things we put inside undersea cables.). < 1533419619 506975 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, some of the computers from the early days of transistors may still be working < 1533419621 616459 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: there is some research on that. some people proposed ones that would work for ten thousand years unrepaired or something and is earthbound, and is just a clock (barely counts as a computer), but it's probably unrealistic. < 1533419636 249420 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :thermionic valves are really unreliable, and when people started replacing them by transistors it took a while for them to revise the computer designs < 1533419636 915872 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah a clock wouldn't count imho. < 1533419645 692645 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: anyway, putting some random keywords together: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-28/issue-6/technology-focus/radiation-hardened-space-electronics-enter-the-multi-core-era.html < 1533419650 791730 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing completeness is what matters. < 1533419660 714937 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :smallest, longest-lasting turing complete piece of hardware. < 1533419662 219652 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't have any Turing complete computers though < 1533419674 687561 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah yeah mr. pedant. < 1533419684 896294 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes it quite hard to define a computer in real life < 1533419694 487364 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess some sort of informal "usable for programming" is what we care about < 1533419716 194601 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :construct me the longest-lasting linear bounded automaton you have. < 1533419746 537505 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: oh and a nice closing sentence: 'Aircraft flying at altitude, at about 30,000 feet and above, also are starting to experience radiation-induced effects. "There are 500 times more neutrons at 30,000 feet than there are on the ground," points out Aitech's Romaniuk.' < 1533419748 55860 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, a physically realisable LBA would require some sort of rewritable physical medium to supply the input < 1533419758 424254 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(near closing, if you want to be technical) < 1533419760 303237 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't look like that, if I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_1 correctly < 1533419771 370301 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't rely on any electronic or MEMs shit. < 1533419788 291139 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we're also going to talk size. < 1533419795 680205 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's the two Pioneer probes, both of which were launched prior to the two Voyagers, that can no longer communicate with us < 1533419803 921028 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ah right, apparently we can still tell it to steer and get back information telling us it's changed course < 1533419848 708577 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that wouldn't need a lot of bandwidth < 1533419857 495563 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't voyager 2 the furthest < 1533419883 585034 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: yes, there's no market for computers that work for a long time, because nobody cares for such long term investments financially, which is probably why none have been built in practice < 1533419920 228465 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially because computer technology improves all the time, and so a computer is likely to become obsolete fairly quickly < 1533419926 350654 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's not < 1533419950 80990 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't even care about the speed or size of it, I just want the most durable and longest-lasting piece of hardware, in whatever form it may take. < 1533419953 30234 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although a working computer from, say, the year 2000 would still be useful nowadays, even though it's much less powerful than modern computers are < 1533419965 957459 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may be able to make a fluidic TM out of some of the hardest material on the planet. < 1533419972 603674 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I can imagine that some microcontrollers would be very durable < 1533419993 191074 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I wouldn't rely on anything electrical or explicitly mechanical. wear and tear. < 1533420004 314072 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :fluidics sound like a good option. < 1533420011 1650 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :applications like computerised sensors might legitimately want to work for a long time < 1533420039 465989 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :10,000 years in space? < 1533420040 8535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: I've been thinking of a physical implementation of The Waterfall Model using actual flowing water, but it'd likely accumulate tolerance errors over time unless you had some sort of quantisation involved < 1533420044 9815 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, and part of that is because better radio wave receivers and transmitters have been built than were possible when it (Voyager 10) was launched, although people probably anticipated back than that such will be built < 1533420067 134381 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm thinking of fluidic logic gates in an enclosed block of some kind of material. < 1533420072 458482 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :we don't care about getting output from it. < 1533420080 389399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: fluid scour would be a huge issue with something like that < 1533420085 660341 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah. < 1533420108 118256 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think electrical or optical computation would be the right way to go, having no moving parts is likely to increase durability considerably < 1533420130 308390 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with electrical computation, you'd want to use some really simple, hardwearing components like BJTs < 1533420177 247870 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno, I don't think any of it would last. thermals, etc. < 1533420219 399352 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, I believe Voyager 10 has a *programmable* computer because when it was launched, its creators anticipated that future research on Earth would let them decide how to change its program for the better, and communication bandwidth limits wouldn't allow the program to just be executed on Earth < 1533420220 537877 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just looked it up, as long as the current stays low enough the only known failure mode of BJTs within their normal operating envelope is due to ionizing radiation < 1533420236 258991 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm. < 1533420252 529562 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Voyager 10/Voyager 1/ < 1533420268 43928 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still think it should be something more passively mechanical like fluidics. either using gasses or actual fluids. < 1533420402 414478 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: some science writer whose name eludes me did propose that a Turing-complete computer that lives forever may be physically built, but only with capabilities of civilizations much more advanced than ours < 1533420438 846910 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :its purpose would be to run a mind, so that they thus gain immortality < 1533420477 728809 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :asimov's the last question? < 1533420552 168811 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: no < 1533420570 130932 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :imode: it actually details the physics part < 1533420581 128485 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh. < 1533420593 819587 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and was intended as non-fiction, although "futurology" bounds on fiction < 1533420616 250905 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pretty famous short book < 1533420633 426199 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you play GURPS, what TL number would you have such thing of that? < 1533420646 81951 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing like that's coming to mind immediately... < 1533420652 35151 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the Voyager 10 might count as one of the oldest computers that is still used for practical purposes today < 1533420658 654964 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I could be wrong here < 1533420812 532097 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for fluidic computers, there was a supposed one exhibited in the Technisches Museum Wien that I've seen in 2006, < 1533420861 157194 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely it was a machine made of glass and water and air but with the glass never moving, powered by a water pump and its inputs controlled by some modern computer, < 1533420936 155622 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fluid scour is a major source of mechanical damage to things, though < 1533420942 591521 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it would be less bad with a gas than a liquid < 1533420964 856181 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that they claimed was a four-bit adder, and with a display of the inputs and outputs in binary also made of those same components with the bits drawn in water (the water was dyed for better visibility), < 1533420966 370972 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i don't see why you'd expect fluidics to be particularly long-lasting < 1533420998 365673 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean how would overbuilt silicon microchips compare? ais523? < 1533421027 333812 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the controlling computer had an input terminal where you would input two arbitrary four-bit numbers, and the input display did seem to work correctly, < 1533421058 522933 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: there are a few failure modes for silicon chips, some of which are to do with temperature, others of which are to do with buildup of electrons or holes in the wrong place < 1533421084 713560 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and some of which are mechanical and even weird, e.g. fusible link PROMs sometimes suffer from the copper in them growing crystals and linking up to other bit of copper < 1533421095 108924 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, the controlling computer also forced to reset the inputs to all zeros after like ten seconds of feeding your input and forced to keep it at all zeros for some time, and during those approx ten seconds, < 1533421106 882780 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, like tin whiskers? < 1533421124 560757 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yuh < 1533421130 686145 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a significant ratio of inputs I tried the state of the adder didn't stabilize (the gates didn't propagate fast enough or something), < 1533421164 323260 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I actually suspect that they never managed to debug the water computer, and just exhibited the buggy one with a workaround that makes the bug plausibly deniable < 1533421181 311550 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least, makes them plausibly claim that it had worked at some point < 1533421211 719102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: right < 1533421250 983268 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I wonder if it's possible to build a magnetic computer < 1533421257 742940 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't seem like it had some theoretical design bug, the mechanism seemed like it could work in theory, but I think the glassware was difficult and slow to repair, and so they just couldn't get it right in enough tries and had to exhibit it to get a government grant or something. < 1533421259 62054 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's unclear what the power supply would be and if any sorts of gate exist < 1533421292 450926 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think besides the glass it also had a non-moving metal frame to support the weight of the glass. < 1533421299 223027 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can look up, I have a photo. < 1533421346 276093 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :How many times have I told this story of the supposed fluidic computer on this channel yet? < 1533421358 803912 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :imma go with 5. < 1533421374 162131 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what would a magnetic computer mean? < 1533421412 971139 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: something that used magnetism to send data rather than electricity < 1533421450 796414 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, a metal frame and also some sort of plastic valve-thingies, but the water was the only moving part, supposedly, unless they also cheated on that < 1533421467 631738 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the valve thingies were for maintenance and tuning < 1533421510 90921 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it was in 2007, not 2006 < 1533421553 37703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I find it hard to see how you could do logic with only water as moving parts < 1533421587 873935 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, nobody understands fluid mechanics so it must be possible < 1533421644 814973 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :fluidic logic gates! < 1533421804 394969 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1533421842 894104 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the water had to be flowing continuously, bits represented by either water flowing fast or barely any water flowing and the tube filled with mostly air, the trick was some syphons: < 1533421885 135348 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the gate had a part where if water entered on both inputs, then the water would be continuously syphoned out from a container through a higher overflow output pipe, and barely any exited the lower output pipe, but if water came only on one input, then the syphon would never start. < 1533421914 795126 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I imagine the difficulty is that the water pressure has to be regulated very well, and that's hard to keep through multiple depths of gates. < 1533421915 102584 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that's clever < 1533421963 107911 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is also why it's so plausibly deniable: it is possible that the mechanism was designed to only give correct output if it was actually "flushed" to all zero inputs on every gate between any two inputs. < 1533421990 204895 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1533421990 456986 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1533421990 457048 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1533421992 432564 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the electronic reset needn't have been arbitrary, it might have been a necessary requirement to use the computer, enforced to visitors. < 1533421994 18080 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably write a TC language with that restriction, though < 1533422049 247869 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But because of the instability of the mechanism, I can't really be sure that this is the case. It just makes the plausible cover story so much more believable. < 1533422088 735544 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it must have been a private grant, not a government grant. You don't need such a good cover story for a government grant. < 1533422093 176473 :shikhin_!shikhin@lambdaos.org PART :#esoteric < 1533422108 517345 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :A grant from a private company that is. < 1533422174 298624 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either that, or a machine built by a single eso-computer builder glassblower who donated it to the museum when he gave up on making it work. < 1533422231 627865 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, is it possible to build an amplifier with this sort of logic? < 1533422248 995537 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics#Amplifiers < 1533422249 204015 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something which converts a slow flow to a fast flow but a zero flow to a zero flow < 1533422259 865641 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably yes < 1533422269 839731 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or so I'd guess < 1533422300 876258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally, if you have an amplifier, you can make arbitrary circuits, without one you can't < 1533422305 19469 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you had a reliable flow rate on inputs and power. < 1533422329 937032 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like fluid amplifiers exist. < 1533422355 988602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like the logic relies on deflection, i.e. you can point a stream of water at another stream of water and it pushes it into a different location < 1533422380 880921 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, kind of like a billiard ball model. < 1533422398 723089 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :only with many many more particles. :P < 1533422405 714728 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the adder is a non-monotonous circuit, so it needs non-monotonous gates. aren't those practically required to contain an amplifier, in the sense that a transistor used as a unit gate in modern digital computers is an amplifier and has a power input? < 1533422440 563379 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it can't be exactly what I said, because that would only make an xor gate < 1533422454 598413 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but perhaps it has an or gate as well as those < 1533422455 613369 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode PRIVMSG #esoteric :y'all should look at the article lol. < 1533422459 571122 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did < 1533422509 916947 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I can show the photos if you want to reverse engineer, but they're bad quality so hard to use for that < 1533422512 330137 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't think a half-adder (and thus a full-adder) actually needs amplification; the truth table is 00→00, 01→01, 10→01, 11→10, and in each case the output has no more 1s than the input < 1533422553 175597 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hmm, that's true < 1533422562 675444 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1533422586 954633 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is honestly kind of crazy how much stuff in the game of life comes down to the r pentomino < 1533422593 441055 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the mechanism looks like each gate is very simple physically, and seems to have only two inputs and two outputs < 1533422603 507937 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wait < 1533422607 507206 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have two inputs and three outputs < 1533422617 476264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phantom_Hoover: you can think of it as a game of life version of an amplifier: small (easily constructed) input, really big and complex output < 1533422633 110866 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or two outputs? I can't see < 1533422652 955043 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1533422666 519923 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's only two outputs, but hard to tell from my photo < 1533422666 838780 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there aren't many useful components with two inputs and three outputs; if it does have that structure it's probably a demultiplexer, which is the only reasonable component I can think of that works like that < 1533422689 210514 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :additionally, a demultiplexer can be made into a half-adder via an OR on outputs 1 and 3 < 1533422700 608330 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which would just involve connecting them together, fluidically) < 1533422709 980509 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :conway has said that he should've invented b36/s23 instead b/c it has the nice easy replicator < 1533422714 92363 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, if there are three outputs, then the extra output must be drainage of extra water < 1533422742 265354 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the machine is visibly built of seven gates, clearly arranged in the configuration you'd need for a four-bit adder < 1533422748 606158 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the r pentomino dies out almost instantly in that, so it would never have supported all the immense variety of r-pentomino/herschel based technology that's used in life < 1533422757 284085 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: hmm, so the "fluid demultiplexer"'s truth table would be 00→000, 01→001, 10→100, 11→020 < 1533422775 450318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably there's some component that reshapes a 2 into a 1 < 1533422819 657554 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm wait < 1533422846 943137 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the water flows only down, then it's actually the wrong configuration for a full adder. it has two gates next to each other on the top, but one in the bottom. wtf. < 1533422905 217368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reversible counter machine I'm working on effectively has flows made out of different numbers, and 1→2 amplifiers / 2→1 deamplifiers are basic components < 1533422923 512937 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it also allows 0s to move around with meaningful semantics < 1533422931 997534 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and both input pipes from the two top level gates seem to be connected to the second level gates < 1533423016 827150 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is that a TC-proof you're making over some already published reversible counter machine, or a new esolang? because that doesn't sound like a "counter machine" < 1533423052 784855 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it's a new esolang that's intended to be high-level enough to TC-prove it but low-level enough to implement in lower-level esolangs < 1533423071 853095 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it looks like the left hand side gates differ slightly from the right hand side gates < 1533423079 559303 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a counter machine in the sense that there's a direct representation of its state in finitely many counters < 1533423119 788697 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is the representation with "flows made out of different numbers" a different one? < 1533423140 842396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really, the numbers effectively just move from one counter to another < 1533423163 553013 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which in a lower-level counter machine would involve a copy loop, but in the high-level representation it's conceptually a single step) < 1533423176 82665 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but... are there a bounded number of counters for the whole life of the supposed universal program < 1533423180 444273 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1533423193 577859 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1533423221 128293 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean some numbers close to zero are special, just like in many counter machines, and that's where you're using 1->2 amplifiers? < 1533423307 534770 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is that not what the 1->2 amplifier means? < 1533423313 85449 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, the way it works is that you have a graph which is effectively a graph of control flow, and an instruction pointer which is on a particular graph node < 1533423333 546496 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :data and control flow move in opposite directions; the instruction pointer moves around by swapping with data in adjacent graph nodes < 1533423351 569944 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hdukofpckokhdxlm JOIN :#esoteric < 1533423369 463121 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a 1→2 amplifier would produce 2s behind where the control flow entered, but expect 1s ahead of where the control flow exited < 1533423389 143258 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite hard to get your head around the data and control flowing in opposite directions, incidentally, it keeps confusing me when I work on the language < 1533423435 29039 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is 1 input and 2 output the only possible state of that amplifier, or is there another valid input? < 1533423472 456889 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assumed it would take 0 input and 0 output, because that's what I thought "amplifier" means < 1533423480 841683 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at this point I'm no longer sure because this is a crazy esolang < 1533423530 713911 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"data and control flowing in opposite directions" => isn't that also how any circular queue esolang works by the way? < 1533423545 797808 :wob_jonas!b03f1821@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.33 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it can be easier if there's only one circular queue, not a more complex graph < 1533426511 959138 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vxuvudeocpjvrbpy JOIN :#esoteric