< 1534896958 628591 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is perhaps not the answer you are looking for, but it is indeed a programming language (it is Turing complete)" < 1534896984 789174 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Turing completeness is neither sufficient or necessary for something to be a programming language. < 1534897445 528277 :LKoen_!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1534897568 463911 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1534899901 502444 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1534901018 880617 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: SULFUROUS CHICKEN < 1534905157 232186 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are .sid files turing complete? I think they may be turing complete < 1534905629 834438 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :They do contain 6502 machine code. I should totally make an infinite length one < 1534905692 578409 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Machine code is usually not TC. < 1534905981 948611 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though, by the same line of reasoning nor is C. < 1534906013 101641 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just an FSM with a fairly large state. < 1534906155 789491 :AlwaysHigh18!~AlwaysHig@41.250.87.15 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534906191 399248 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1534906313 267959 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not that it helps you much. Sufficiently large state makes things like a halting predicate practically infeasible even if they are theoretically permissible. < 1534906359 624280 :AlwaysHigh18!~AlwaysHig@41.250.87.15 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534906553 351862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was wondering recently how much of the algorithmic reasoning people do doesn't really make sense in the presence of even a large upper bound. < 1534907997 929324 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if 6510 machine code could be considered turing complete if you put assumptions on what address 0 and 1 do (e.g. maybe you could send a signal to switch RAM out in a tape-like fashion) < 1534908009 547495 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534908032 879021 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or 6502 + special address in memory for shenanigans like that < 1534908567 713976 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1534909239 306383 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534910310 613653 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not too difficult to extend the 6502 to arbitrary bit-lengths, I think < 1534910331 261275 :Hooloovo0!Hooloovoo@hooloovoo.blue PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, might get silly after a bit, but I've worked with a 24-bit version a bit < 1534910780 869815 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1534911455 114454 :rdococ!rdococ@cheapiesystems.com QUIT :Changing host < 1534911455 114502 :rdococ!rdococ@unaffiliated/rdococ JOIN :#esoteric < 1534911491 85992 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1534911506 866127 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534911713 473804 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534912204 866535 :irc-5225225!~irc-52252@p928155-ipngn200701sizuokaden.shizuoka.ocn.ne.jp JOIN :#esoteric < 1534912320 454902 :irc-5225225!~irc-52252@p928155-ipngn200701sizuokaden.shizuoka.ocn.ne.jp QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534917291 984301 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-79-176-84-43.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534917403 810981 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-79-176-84-43.red.bezeqint.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: sounds interesting < 1534917839 951562 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1534918625 241825 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ynsncdewrbwukekt QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1534918924 711224 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minima.sid by Wyndex seems to play forever < 1534918951 372547 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :STIL gives a shorter duration though. If someone were to make a song that infinitely varies.. hmm < 1534919038 264762 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :(STIL = text file describing all the music in HVSC (High Voltage SID Collection)) < 1534919304 959136 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh huh STIL isnt where players get song lenght, there's a Songlengths.txt < 1534919835 402369 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534920095 410794 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1534920677 279609 :irrationalist!~alfalfa@unaffiliated/irrationalist JOIN :#esoteric < 1534921935 177874 :irrationalist!~alfalfa@unaffiliated/irrationalist QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534922360 657011 :d1b26!~d1b@121.142.199.116 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534922578 281906 :d1b26!~d1b@121.142.199.116 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534922989 945844 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1534923283 564162 :fractal1!~fractal@186-95-2-183.genericrev.cantv.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534923313 586118 :fractal1!~fractal@186-95-2-183.genericrev.cantv.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534924769 986287 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1534925297 23829 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1534925381 730458 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534925511 279107 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1534925608 267645 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1534925862 784999 :hsr93!~alfalfa@unaffiliated/irrationalist JOIN :#esoteric < 1534925911 92173 :hsr93!~alfalfa@unaffiliated/irrationalist QUIT :Client Quit < 1534925991 455006 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1534926340 465277 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534926612 839348 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534926613 124193 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534926618 455332 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1534926760 72454 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534926760 203135 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534926857 707320 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534926857 804955 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534926931 419976 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534926931 514503 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534926990 810015 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534926990 989988 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927063 17523 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927063 126315 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927149 685572 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927149 759011 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927202 843423 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927203 224335 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927383 874909 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927383 948628 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927724 674194 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927724 743238 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927779 676920 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927779 874022 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927824 685827 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927824 745176 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927874 698733 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927874 847119 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534927924 999260 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534927925 225352 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534928070 950735 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534928071 502666 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534928127 730062 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1534928153 578571 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1534932837 718243 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534933107 673485 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1534935021 991761 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-79-176-84-43.red.bezeqint.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1534935091 964383 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-79-176-76-8.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534936766 969525 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iuhihnvyahggbdtx JOIN :#esoteric < 1534939341 975466 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534939468 967381 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1534939614 292625 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1534940543 637276 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534941635 803766 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534941636 336278 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1534941914 807324 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1534941936 809612 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : I'm going to try to use it as a computer terminal <-- now you're reminding me of when _i_ was about twelve... > 1534941963 140077 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokWae/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57416&oldid=57351 5* 03YamTokWae 5* (+56) 10 < 1534941976 339497 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: the difference, I expect, is I have a full time job < 1534941982 375343 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my dad brought home a printer with modem and phoned a mainframe < 1534942003 595976 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I can afford all the receipt printer rolls I want < 1534942011 111075 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAY < 1534942016 915499 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway continue your story < 1534942044 393353 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you were going to go somewhere different when I started writing my result < 1534942049 569560 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm my father used to bring home used scrolls of printing paper for me to write on < 1534942124 140411 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :this was a printer normally used for logging events at the telecom building < 1534942135 836368 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well they had several of them, iirc < 1534942167 605724 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, he phoned it up and we tried out Sintran BASIC < 1534942212 855223 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this was only about the second time i'd used a computer, the first time was when on holiday and someone had an Apple something. < 1534942228 206035 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :back in approximately 1982 < 1534942264 811813 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd already learned BASIC from reading a book < 1534942272 226916 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some BASIC. < 1534942366 274240 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think i wrote some programs on that scratch paper, without a computer :) < 1534942384 748720 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :complex arithmetic iirc < 1534942410 515870 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :end of story, i guess < 1534942449 394663 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1534942473 414476 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534942477 488222 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he got 7000 stars for implementing certificate delivery in BASH https://github.com/Neilpang/acme.sh < 1534943030 475403 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :rain1: Hi! < 1534943036 189192 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1534943065 116239 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is still appalled by that repo
< 1534943079 697223 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it counts as esoprogramming < 1534943145 713310 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :full of gems like... if [ -f "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" ]; then . "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" fi < 1534943158 657393 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :(aka configuration file parsing in bash) < 1534943403 326296 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover QUIT :Quit: Rebooting < 1534943550 303934 :FreeFull!~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover JOIN :#esoteric < 1534944352 865417 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534944648 785014 :G33kDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude JOIN :#esoteric > 1534944729 629595 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User:YamTokWae/Sandbox14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57417&oldid=57416 5* 03YamTokWae 5* (+1883) 10Finally done! > 1534944875 610422 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57418 5* 03YamTokWae 5* (+6245) 10Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Pxem |paradigms= |author= |year=[[:Category:2008|2008]] |typesys= |memsys= |dimensions= |class= |refimpl= |majorimpl= |dialects= |influence= |in..." > 1534944940 640165 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Language list14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57419&oldid=57398 5* 03YamTokWae 5* (+11) 10/* P */ Pxem added! < 1534945166 309392 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed JOIN :#esoteric < 1534945343 538450 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534945455 81450 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Asimov, or whoever was the editor of the short story "Mother Earth", has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian": "https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v43n03_1949-05_cape1736#page/n58/mode/1up" . Don't you just love the English language and its uniformity? > 1534945535 110199 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pxem14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57420&oldid=57418 5* 03YamTokWae 5* (+496) 10 < 1534945839 879408 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534946120 909284 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1534946393 600423 :ep100!~max@105.229.18.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534946395 98051 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone reads Tom Siddel’s GC here? < 1534946422 638435 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Later < 1534946711 460950 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian"> interesting. Could it be the case it was pronounced as a[nɪ]storian by him? I seem to hear [h] elides here and there in some cases < 1534946815 901168 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: there's a very varied amount of initial h-dropping in various English dialect. I've asked about it previously in #esoteric, and some people pronounce initial h in every word, some drop it in lot of words. < 1534947117 995397 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only drop English initial h in "hour, honest, honesty, honored, honorable" and possibly in "herb, heir, heirloom" (I'm undecided about those rare words) < 1534947217 862446 :nkuttler28!~nkuttler@187.159.107.27 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534947350 277840 :nkuttler28!~nkuttler@187.159.107.27 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534947697 474373 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pronounce the h in herb but not in heir or heirloom < 1534947703 331562 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then again I pronounce the b in debt < 1534947839 561560 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :debt to all traitors < 1534947950 576499 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: how about all the other h words? "have, he, his, her, here, how, hand, happen, head, hear, hear, help, high, hold, home, house, half, happy, hard, health, heart, hey, himself, history, hit, hope, hour, however, human, hair, handle, hang, hate, heat, heavy, hell, herself, hi, hide, hospital, hot, hotel, huge, hundred, hurt, husband", < 1534948022 612376 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that an exhaustive list of h words? < 1534948041 256453 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hall, hardly, healthy, hello, hill, hire, historical, hole, holyday, honest, honey, honor, horse, host, housing, huh, hunt", and most importantly, the original example "historian" < 1534948050 526870 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: hour is the only one in that first list < 1534948066 594458 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :honest, honor in the second list < 1534948073 705547 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pronouce the h in historian < 1534948089 875363 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In particular I would say "she is a historian", not "she is an historian") < 1534948141 956648 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it used to be the rule at "an" went before a word beginning with "h" in all cases < 1534948192 839563 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :further, "ha, habit, harm, hat, heal, heaven, height, helping, hero, highlight, highway, hip, historic, holy, hook, horrible, household, hug, hungry", < 1534948198 368484 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for reference I'm a native speaker from the north-east of England with one Australian parent) < 1534948215 73836 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: none of those do I drop the h < 1534948291 180903 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now we're getting the uncommon ones: "habitat, halfway, hallway, halt, hammer, handsome, harbor, hardware, harmony, harsh, harvest, haul, haunt, headache, headline, headquarter, healthcare, heel, helicopter, helmet, hence, herb, herd, heritage, hesitate, hike, hint, Hispanic, holder, homeland, homework, hop, horizon, hormone, horn, horror, host < 1534948291 244466 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :age, hostile, humanity, humor, hunter, hurricane, hypothesis" < 1534948365 165394 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm actually unsure about "heritage" too < 1534948428 621534 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: right. much of my pronunciation comes from the times when outside of English-speaking countries, language courses teached received pronunciation. < 1534948456 560313 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I pronounce the h in all of that last list as well < 1534948480 174879 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't think of myself having much of a dialect and then I realise that I really do < 1534948508 500771 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just hear enough not-English people that a lot of English accents sound quite similar to me < 1534948520 464762 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: with which vowel do you pronounce "can't dance"? < 1534948612 611596 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the IPA, but a long a, almost "ar" for "can't", and a short a for "dance" < 1534948658 551046 :andrew_!6d5d707b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.93.112.123 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534948667 479030 :andrew_!6d5d707b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.93.112.123 QUIT :Client Quit < 1534948693 232628 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you remind me about nine tonight BST, I'll send you a recording < 1534948699 203870 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(going to the cinema after work) < 1534948699 542706 :andymclaren!6d5d707b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.93.112.123 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534948723 763620 :andymclaren!6d5d707b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.109.93.112.123 QUIT :Client Quit < 1534948766 211866 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: do you pronounce them with the first vowel of "father", or the vowl of "cat", or neither? < 1534948817 27537 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't and father are similar < 1534948829 248411 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat and dance are very slightly different? < 1534948832 43102 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :recording doesn't help much alone, because it's only all the vowels in relation that are important, not the individual realziations < 1534948859 307087 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange. < 1534948862 226654 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? can't < 1534948863 773781 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast < 1534948867 775113 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1534948870 273590 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I kind of cut the vowel short in dance but not in cat? < 1534948924 944871 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English < 1534948937 168377 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism < 1534949051 405771 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Sorry, I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's popsci book, and he makes it like God created the earliest particles, then someone else who sounds like Morgoth created the Higgs-boson in an attempt to ruin the perfect symmetry of God's creation, < 1534949125 422598 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then when God asked Morgoth why he did that, Morgoth lied that he only did it to make the world richer, and God knew that while Morgoth thinks it's a lie, it's actually true, because Morgoth could do nothing that He didn't already anticipate, and the Higgs boson actually makes the world complicated but beautiful in a way that nobody but God him < 1534949125 486152 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :self foresaw, < 1534949139 255233 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's how the stars and physicists were born.) < 1534949159 597149 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Naturally < 1534949252 705962 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(So now if the physicists are working hard enough to defeat the Higgs-boson, then they will see it, and God lets them see it and the original simple beauty behind it too and how the two together allowed to make nucleuses and stars and physicists to get created.) < 1534949609 433472 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Some of that is what I'm imagining into the book though, not what Lenderman actually wrote.) < 1534951568 749642 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534951757 149155 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that an exhaustive list of h words? => lol < 1534951819 109360 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually a representative list from a reputable source < 1534951832 269025 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :filtered through my noise < 1534951903 734879 :piklu18!~piklu@186-91-188-118.genericrev.cantv.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534952050 697354 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English // must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism => IMO it should go to the quotes :D < 1534952067 47582 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? wisdom < 1534952068 173675 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? < 1534952133 990360 :ep100!~max@105.229.18.254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have any of you used the Java/Scala parsing library Parboiled? any thoughts? < 1534952146 357953 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? quote < 1534952147 412857 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb. < 1534952160 684338 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? qdb < 1534952162 784416 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat < 1534952170 830156 :piklu18!~piklu@186-91-188-118.genericrev.cantv.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534952199 409224 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? addquote < 1534952200 462154 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :addquote ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1534952205 318190 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wah < 1534952322 163763 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? quoteformat < 1534952323 261140 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :quoteformat is: message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two. < 1534952368 473055 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I'm not here, and I can't be trusted with HackEso anyway, but if you're still here and could guide arseniiv in using HackEso, that would be great < 1534952397 531999 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: basically you can just say `addquote message message < 1534952416 195006 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but make sure the quote is worthy to keep without context, or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context < 1534952444 850375 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an art rather than a science, and I'm not very good at it, although there are some quotes I added, and some I said < 1534952450 598619 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`addquote that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism < 1534952452 195946 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1327) that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism < 1534952466 517684 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I hope I made it right and worthy :) < 1534952487 749358 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do believe quoting is an art, too, yeah < 1534952555 459409 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`ping < 1534952556 133243 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :pong < 1534952602 909539 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: hackeso doesn't reply to my private messages. is this deliberate? < 1534952606 922543 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` cat bin/allquotes < 1534952607 607934 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :​#!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes < 1534952654 73765 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context => totally agree. I have seen many quotes in the wild, which were concluded by an author’s reaction. It’s weird and uncomfortable < 1534952743 916792 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: ftr HackEso responds me to "`quote" < 1534952754 922810 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "desc\000" quotes < 1534952756 54503 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc. < 1534952765 467782 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and pongs too < 1534952778 354281 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\000" quotes < 1534952779 728900 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11610 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism.11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter.11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft.11580 addquote < 1534952796 608747 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | perl -we "" < 1534952797 760242 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1534952801 153800 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes < 1534952802 312562 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11610 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism \ 11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580 ad < 1534952842 128284 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" < 1534952843 418770 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1534952855 378636 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1534952863 806426 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*erjan[^>]*>" < 1534952864 960688 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1534952869 987561 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1534952878 64173 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*erjan[^>]*>" < 1534952879 198671 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11551 addquote Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old shachaf, not at all I would never suggest that it\'s getting slightly old \ 11346 < 1534952886 918832 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" < 1534952888 234007 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :11439 addquote oh, we also need a Donate effect Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we\'ll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes \ 10204 addquote basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI \ 9620 addquote please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually u < 1534952910 683284 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1534952922 675636 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+3 < 1534952923 876137 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9620 addquote please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually use the L\xe2\x88\x9e metric (they can go eight ways) \ 9236 addquote hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps \ 9234 addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps < 1534952952 678598 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :HackEso not trusting me enough to respond in private message is probably a feature, not a bug < 1534952998 620333 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+5 < 1534952999 894103 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9234 addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps < 1534953011 196274 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after that was when they taught me about `? quoteformat < 1534953032 694563 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -c 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes < 1534953033 739450 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg log: option -c not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options ([+] can be repeated): \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies show copied files \ -k --keyword TEXT [+] do case-insensitive search for a given text < 1534953057 779047 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` hg log -r 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes < 1534953058 904382 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :9235 delquote 1291 < 1534953067 991148 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, -c would be the correct option for svn < 1534953218 106098 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote L3 norm < 1534953218 812813 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1295) please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways) < 1534953232 151789 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`quote _jonas < 1534953232 942254 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1200) oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original \ 1221) fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) shachaf: different notation. -o < 1534953258 192686 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` quote _jonas | tail -n+2 < 1534953259 20813 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1221) fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) shachaf: different notation. -o is logical or in find, but it's linear implication in linear logic \ 1269) (make is an esoteric language) b_jonas: Most esolangs I've seen have more comprehensive docs than make \ 1273) boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping < 1534953302 431762 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` quote _jonas | tail -n+5 < 1534953303 524360 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1273) boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. \ 1318) b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth \ 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ < 1534953316 878295 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :``` quote _jonas | tail -n+7 < 1534953317 677541 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 1327) that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism < 1534953362 781041 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? < 1534953365 57655 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1534953384 983120 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-erfurcygkxauhwgj QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1534953433 217696 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :1318 wut?? < 1534953505 32732 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? => maybe not < 1534953764 643567 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I mean it could be incomparable to both) < 1534954109 885643 :bradcomp1!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2 < 1534954126 692390 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534954828 450452 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1534956158 483839 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1534956327 320052 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534957643 745416 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534957702 519469 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts (I'm thinking of making a conlang-inspired esolang and there are good reasons for it to need an alphabet of its own) < 1534957734 309909 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays < 1534957764 509858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably the characters would be in a private-use area somewher? < 1534957766 677207 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :*somewhere < 1534958192 424623 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can you maybe just fork an Open Source font to get a template, and then just completely rework the typeface to be what you want? < 1534958241 528021 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1534958250 194341 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the characters in this are intentionally very simple and line-segmenty, though < 1534958254 615019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I think I'd want something much simpler than most fonts < 1534958266 470512 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that might be overkill < 1534958273 627960 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simple vector font would likely be enough, no hinting (perhaps it'd benefit from some kerning) < 1534958343 299750 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for font creation I suppose you could use something like glyphr studio, last time I seen it was JS-based HTML thingie and it was able to export to some of usual font formats < 1534958362 414578 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have it installed but I haven’t played with it < 1534958377 928094 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses Unicode as an encoding < 1534958395 108203 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, "JS-based HTML thingie" seems fairly discouraging, but I guess it might be usable < 1534958399 22562 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv that looks really cool! < 1534958416 162607 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: bradcomp: it should be able to do kerning AFAIR < 1534958450 82540 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also Inkscape can create SVG fonts but I think its UI for it is way messier < 1534958537 810794 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"up to U+FFFF", ugh, that could be a bit of a problem; the private use area is getting fairly crowded already < 1534958575 771260 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even know which bits won't clash with other peoples' little-used languages < 1534958703 853386 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not make a standard latinization of your conlang and use characters from that to represent characters of an actual conscript in the font? Ligatures should make for conscript’s interesting traits like custom diactiric behavior, vowel carriers and like < 1534958725 33916 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1534958725 33986 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1534958725 34003 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1534958726 513201 :puck!~puck@puckipedia.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1534958726 631305 :FireFly!znc@freenode/staff/firefly QUIT :*.net *.split < 1534958726 715500 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :*.net *.split < 1534958727 972005 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1534958730 294617 :clog_!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1534958730 713334 :brandons1n!~brandon@208.91.114.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534958742 86210 :erdic!~erdic@81.4.123.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534958764 601540 :erdic!~erdic@81.4.123.134 QUIT :Changing host < 1534958764 601584 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1534958778 193218 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then if one uses this special font, it looks nice, and if one uses an unaware font, it is magically a transcription < 1534958833 155938 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: well one feature of this is that it doesn't really correspond to English in any real way < 1534958846 245915 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet, come to think of it, although it's not quite the same as that either < 1534958874 282460 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I could replace characters from an /actual/ syllabary, assuming it was large enough < 1534959165 327299 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could use font ligatures to make e. g. gu gi ga gen ger tu ti ta correspond to separate glyphs than glyphs for g, t, u, i etc. < 1534959175 358213 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1534959198 494527 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope ligaturing in fonts is advanced enough < 1534959210 914604 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn’t investigate < 1534959233 687269 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway good luck! < 1534959292 845439 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't work on it right now < 1534959302 653674 :joast!~rick@cpe-98-145-132-215.natnow.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1534959305 962816 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wasn't considering a pronunciation for it up to this point < 1534959309 754466 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I guess having one might be useful < 1534959320 500382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the original concept was entirely as a written language < 1534959324 537712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might as well try to pronounce brainfuck < 1534959346 965217 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, there surely must be a brainfuck derivative intended to be pronounceable, there's a brainfuck derivative for basically everything < 1534959716 701751 :sparr!~sparr@2604:a880:800:10::103:f001 QUIT :Changing host < 1534959716 767966 :sparr!~sparr@pdpc/supporter/active/sparr JOIN :#esoteric < 1534959804 294040 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1534959943 68214 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the original concept was entirely as a written language => ah I see. If there would be less than ~30 glyphs, it could have been passed for a consonantal alphabet, but as you’ve said it’s meant to be a syllabary, then it probably has much more < 1534959961 106950 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's a sort of compositional syllabary < 1534959983 94930 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :each character has two components that are orthogonal to each other < 1534959993 907386 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :treating it as a spoken language, I guess you'd interpret that as consonant/vowel < 1534960039 18546 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like abugida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida then < 1534960067 759128 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think an abugida is the right term < 1534960501 213763 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1534960552 959677 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1534960552 959715 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1534961350 873568 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-iuhihnvyahggbdtx QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1534962347 345370 :alercah!~alercah@unaffiliated/alercah PART :#esoteric < 1534962884 465504 :oren!cebf7d05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.191.125.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534963048 819460 :oren!cebf7d05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.191.125.5 QUIT :Client Quit < 1534963146 143919 :brandons1n!~brandon@208.91.114.1 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534963216 544099 :\oren\!cebf7d05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.191.125.5 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534963315 45358 :Effilry!znc@freenode/staff/firefly JOIN :#esoteric < 1534963351 659858 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534963424 743918 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.34 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534963435 797540 :Effilry!znc@freenode/staff/firefly NICK :FireFly < 1534963442 417825 :ais523!~ais523@213.205.242.34 QUIT :Changing host < 1534963442 417866 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534963478 445544 :\oren\!cebf7d05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.206.191.125.5 QUIT :Client Quit < 1534963482 787223 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nkzwtoqiaoqfwown JOIN :#esoteric < 1534963553 658149 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534963854 653021 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1534966186 196733 :jusWindTwo!~SoacraTa@86.122.82.223 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534966226 75839 :jusWindTwo!~SoacraTa@86.122.82.223 PART :#esoteric < 1534967162 111849 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534967576 964000 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534967642 699072 :Toppogiggio!~Toppogigg@95.215.44.147 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534969575 470175 :puckipedia!~puck@puckipedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1534970809 665574 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534970916 725354 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1534971057 727324 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1534971200 215488 :oren!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1534971211 696737 :oren!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is freenode so buggy lately < 1534971230 897507 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1534971269 475336 :oren!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: today SASL was timing out every time for several hours < 1534971283 603566 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're probably making a lot of code changes while trying to fend off the spambot attack < 1534971288 616587 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :"We are experiencing issues with services and SASL. If you can't connect, try to temporarily disable SASL" < 1534971300 156405 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :oren: that's from the topic in #freenode *shrugs* < 1534971361 567944 :oren!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com NICK :\oren\ < 1534971419 529003 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :int-e: you can't connect from AWS to freenode without SASL tho < 1534971492 171100 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1534971690 733439 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-taptyjxsjmvgvadl JOIN :#esoteric < 1534972647 243909 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534972879 181361 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534972947 673582 :MDead!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1534973044 288417 :puckipedia!~puck@puckipedia.com NICK :puck < 1534973286 645367 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1534973962 266013 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534974446 14430 :ep100!~max@105.229.18.254 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1534974811 963216 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534974835 325591 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523! < 1534974839 168668 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good to see you. let me read the log < 1534974888 917069 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :guess what, arseniiv added me into the hackeso quotesdb. he's growing up to become a full #esoteric regular, and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be. < 1534974896 579265 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :`datei < 1534974897 157759 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :2018-08-22 21:54:56.893904170+00:00 < 1534974949 538583 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh good. in the afternoon, for some reason hackeso wouldn't reply to my private messages. I decided it was a feature, because I can't be trusted. but now he does answer private messages < 1534975027 666269 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts" => you should look at http://www.omniglot.com/ , and the "Constructed scripts" heading in particular. admittedly, that's a rather biased personal selection by the omniglot website maintainer, but still. < 1534975033 10473 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :conlangers sometimes do that. < 1534975070 483983 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have two completely undocumented alphabets I have created, and some attempts to map writing Hungarian or English into them. < 1534975100 668529 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays" => paper and pencil at first. the font part is difficult indeed. < 1534975266 272714 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet" => oh yes, there are a few of those too. like the set of 306 syllable symbols in https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1986 , with no writing system for any language mapping to it yet. < 1534975389 625971 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the constructed alphabets are created are more intended to be used as traditional alphabets, not sylabillaries, although one of them also has an extended version that could be used for some APL-like notation with over 256 possible symbols combined from a somewhat simple traditional system of backspacing and overprinting one of the few modifiers ont < 1534975389 797821 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :o a symbol. < 1534975510 338231 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically I have a set of 30 base letters, with a canon assignment of 26 of them to the 26 ascii letters for when you want a strict transliteration, but you don't have to do that, you can use other writing systems more suitable for specific languages, < 1534975513 560043 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1534975533 195588 :Toppogiggio!~Toppogigg@95.215.44.147 QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1534975596 906123 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then 6 additional modifiers (diacritics: dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, long horizontal bar in the middle, vertical bar) that you each can overprint to each base letter, although to make it look nice you have to shift them a bit depending on which letter you put them onto; < 1534975691 167458 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I also have 16 digits, with a canonical assignment to the hexadecimal digits, but which you can also combine with one of the five allowed modifiers (dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, vertical bar; but NOT horizontal bar) to get extra symbols for maths or programming or even writing; < 1534975727 663676 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1534975792 180025 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 256 seconds < 1534975796 662080 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus also space (which is just the ascii "halfwidth" space used in latin script); plus 16 punctuation symbols, each of which you can combine with one of the six modifiers, but some combinations are banned because they'd either look ambiguous or very ugly; and possibly a few extra symbols that I've been experimenting with to perturb the system but t < 1534975796 829837 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hat probably shouldn't exist. < 1534975890 870680 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 16 punctuation symbols are: period, comma, left round parenthesis, right round parenthesis, less than, greater than, vee, wedge, minus, vertical bar, slash, backslash, equals, plus, cross, eight-pointed star (a plus and a cross overlaid with their centers exactly at the same place). < 1534975940 714577 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :vertical bar with the vertical bar modifier is one of the banned combinations, dot with the dot above modifier is an allowed combination and is basically a colon, comma with dot above is basically a semicolon, < 1534975978 809326 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of dot with middle bar modifier and minus with dot under must be a banned combination, but I haven't completely fixed the list of banned combinations, although I do have some draft versions of it. < 1534976154 294821 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 265 seconds < 1534976201 740991 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is one of the two scripts I'm trying to invent. The other is much simpler, with only 32 symbols of which 16 are base letters and 16 have variable use, plus some modifiers that are used only as shorthand, plus a writing system for Hungarian. < 1534976219 227235 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1534976225 897053 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The big one actually stole the set of digits from the 16 base letters of the other. < 1534976271 612782 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't fixed a canonical alphabetic order for any of them yet, except obviously for the 16 digits in the bigger script. < 1534976541 802715 :Esqapezord!~quassel@bzq-79-182-74-248.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534976570 423637 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed QUIT :Quit: Leaving. < 1534976579 993333 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-79-176-76-8.red.bezeqint.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1534977833 705556 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be => nope, it’s too complex :o < 1534977872 203461 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: that's not why I can't be trusted < 1534978048 780151 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534978244 651482 :Shragazord!~quassel@bzq-109-64-14-142.red.bezeqint.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534978362 664546 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1534978420 912301 :Esqapezord!~quassel@bzq-79-182-74-248.red.bezeqint.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1534979145 267823 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1534979433 929793 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: hm < 1534979477 48154 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well anyway I’m not going to dive in its self-editing capabilities < 1534979514 809544 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or hopefully there’s a backup somewhere < 1534979606 472741 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's on top of a (D)VCS, it's easy to revert to a previous state. < 1534979622 849155 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except for the /hackenv/tmp directory.) < 1534979666 933546 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ < 1534979682 73235 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, generally. there are some practical difficulties, but they rarely come up. < 1534979738 784025 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534979775 167616 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1534980725 451877 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 JOIN :#esoteric < 1534980820 167500 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: here's a quickly scribbled explanation of the conscripts I'm trying to create: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Tv6YC.png < 1534980885 653882 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-76-126-180-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1534980885 653939 :sleffy!~sleffy@c-76-126-180-48.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Client Quit < 1534980902 765354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1534980914 871186 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess what I'm doing is basically what APL did < 1534980952 91891 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: um, have you read my previous messages on the channel by the way? < 1534980959 632746 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, during while you were apparently joined < 1534980969 265973 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes, just didn't have much to say < 1534980983 179245 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1534980985 390574 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1534980990 86413 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you created the alphabet first and then tried to find a use for it < 1534980991 805219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1534981056 266395 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think I created the 5-segment display and digits first, then extended it to hex digits, and drew it in the parenthesis style I used in the bottom, then created the Hungarian writing system for it; < 1534981109 86505 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then later I tried to create some other conscript that failed, and then I tried to create the alphabet that would eventually become the base alphabet on the top, only it was larger and more complicated, < 1534981166 312856 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then I added the digits and the punctuation, but because of the parens in the punctutation, I decided to change the shape of the 1 and C digits to C-shaped, and some time in the meanwhile I experimented with systems of diacritics and eventually came up with this one, < 1534981193 349374 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and decided that since it's more than 256 symbols, and has lots of modified letters and modified punctuation, it's usable enough for an APL < 1534981247 754313 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, for an APL you really want the symbols to match what the command does more or less exactly < 1534981264 802002 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why you need to create new ones if you're adding new commands < 1534981271 75811 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :J uses two common diacritics on both lower and uppercase ascii letters and ascii punctuation and ascii digits, but since I don't have uppercase digits and have half the number of punctuation, but have it balanced by more diacritics, the symbol set looks APL-like enough for me < 1534981294 24607 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should macros be syntactically distinct from regular function calls? < 1534981309 274854 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's a good way to make the distinction? Rust uses ! but that seems too noisy to me. < 1534981315 979182 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of... but after a while the symbol set for APL more or less froze, and < 1534981319 38744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: IMO it depends on whether the macro can do things a regular function call can't < 1534981333 364787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's why it's a macro, right? < 1534981348 1800 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C uses allcaps for macros (as a convention), which brings the point across quite well… /except/ that it uses lowercase, as with regular functions, if the macro isn't doing anything weird that you need to pay attention to < 1534981361 448796 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: "." instead "!" ? < 1534981365 225410 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allcaps also seems too noisy to me. < 1534981371 739066 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a macro should look like a control flow construct, really < 1534981372 498580 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Imagine IF, WHILE, etc. as macros. < 1534981402 834562 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have a Perl-like syntax, something like barewords (no sigil) for macros, leading & for functions, would be consistent with the rest of the language < 1534981411 993353 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Perl dropped that, despite the inconsistency, probably because it was too noisy < 1534981435 813529 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the rule should be something like "macros use parens around their arguments, functions don't" < 1534981444 206418 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Another question: Is there a language that distinguishes lvalues from rvalues explicitly rather than automatically allowing lvalues in rvalue context? < 1534981451 632504 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would that be too noisy? < 1534981473 151651 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Hm, maybe. < 1534981473 241728 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: most mathematical formalisations of language do, and the syntax has leaked into some of them, such as OCaml < 1534981480 233352 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :usual syntax is ! for lvalue-to-rvalue conversion < 1534981489 872581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right, SML or OCaml or something has refs which are similar. < 1534981494 234555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so to increment x in OCaml, you write «x := !x + 1» < 1534981502 445366 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I'm imagining a C-like language where I think it would be noisier in general? < 1534981512 863745 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only because you mutate more in general < 1534981527 912576 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1534981534 448252 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well... ruby has a strange idea of lvalues. it mostly doesn't have them, instead it has indexed-assignment and method-assignment as ordinary methods with funny names, and like ten special case syntaxes that assign to different variables < 1534981540 570345 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algol's weird in that it has a very fixed distinction between lvalues and rvalues but conversions like lvalue-to-rvalue and pointer dereferencing are implicit, guided by the type system < 1534981547 180907 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe C's * operator is already similar to this. < 1534981563 496898 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to perl, which has real lvalues. < 1534981572 901408 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or C++, which also has real lvalues < 1534981573 73575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C's & operator is an abberation caused by the fact that * is normally implicit < 1534981581 742883 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except on the LHS of an assignment < 1534981587 578382 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need an & to turn it off < 1534981591 381387 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm undecided about references in C++. < 1534981597 832421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"int &x = y;" doesn't seem that great. < 1534981612 934720 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But "int &operator[](...)" seems OK? < 1534981635 78831 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm OK with functions returning references but not taking them as arguments. < 1534981674 683961 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1534981677 608167 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in Algol, /all/ "variable names" are constants; thus "int ref x = y" would create a constant integer reference x pointing to the same thing as the constant integer reference y < 1534981685 692565 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, it's too late and I have to sleep, but we can discuss that some time later. I like C++, including the references part, but it's complicated to explain why. < 1534981712 571623 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I also don't think that every language necessarily needs lvalues. < 1534981719 175808 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can have a fine language without lvalues. < 1534981739 987276 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas "int x := y" is shorthand for "int ref x = «whatever the syntax for allocating memory is in Algol; I've forgotten»; x := y", which creates a constant integer reference x pointing to new memory, then copies the value pointed to by y into it < 1534981764 864345 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that stack-allocated memory or something similar? < 1534981797 673714 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that sounds scary < 1534981830 2017 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think there's different syntax for stack and heap allocation < 1534981850 493556 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, it's "loc int" for allocating int-sized memory on the stack, I just remembered the syntax < 1534981989 818603 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the shorthand is very convenient (and probably inspired C's declaration syntax), but unlike the rest of the language, really hides what's going on < 1534982044 482366 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you mean auto declarations in C? < 1534982055 253530 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1534982057 566260 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The kinds of macros I'm talking about take not just their "arguments" but also the rest of the block. < 1534982078 676498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: like the ? we were discussing earlier? < 1534982084 395374 :wob_jonas!b03f186f@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to global variable declarations or definitions < 1534982087 74196 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which ? is that? < 1534982092 298742 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, your monadish thing. < 1534982094 933411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1534982106 308701 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think what I have in mind is a bit more syntactic but I'm actually not sure. < 1534982119 815862 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like to make it less macro-y but I don't know how doable that is. < 1534982137 494356 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You remember, this is for the language idea where all the control flow constructs work like this. < 1534982143 372183 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ if(p); ... } and so on. < 1534982145 853360 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1534982161 62492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there definitely seems to be a connection between control flow constructs and macros < 1534982172 881827 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like these to be as expression-like as possible, though. < 1534982186 833885 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe something like { x := for(for(a)); ... } can make sense for a nested loop. < 1534982202 724589 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which would mean { y := for(a); x := for(y); ... } < 1534982217 446481 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In this sense what they really take as an argument is more like a continuation. < 1534982241 34485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe what we want is syntax for making a continuation out of the rest of the block < 1534982259 597952 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :{ x := f(for(a), for(b)); ... }? < 1534982268 333942 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which probably implies a parens-not-required syntax for function calls < 1534982276 883191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This would impose an evaluation order probably. Which monads etc. need to do anyway. < 1534982283 254408 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "rest of the block" would be defined in terms of evaluation orders, so your for(a), for(b) would work just fine < 1534982295 421779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you do need an explicit evaluation order, as your last example shows < 1534982306 102996 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which could be "unspecified" but probably shouldn't be) < 1534982309 210831 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1534982317 922324 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all very SSA-y. < 1534982322 647723 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1534982367 504131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aren't continuations just the control flow version of SSA? < 1534982374 351984 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're very similar at least. < 1534982389 893806 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yes, my last statement is probably an overstatement but there seems to be something of a connection < 1534982399 952362 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there's clearly a connection.