< 1535071515 647356 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Quit: ^C < 1535071528 678241 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1535071640 296315 :hpt!~hpt@222.120.225.38 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535071824 147329 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Quit: ^C < 1535071836 414677 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1535071860 18880 :hpt!~hpt@222.120.225.38 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535072117 359166 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they should add a DATE and TIME command into DOSBOX to set the clock skew amount for the current DOS session. < 1535072136 908472 :kiera8!~kiera@176.233.115.25 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535072195 652290 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you think? < 1535072229 337809 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Quit: ^C < 1535072233 607076 :kiera8!~kiera@176.233.115.25 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535072829 917956 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535072864 262256 :sftp!~sftp@unaffiliated/sftp JOIN :#esoteric < 1535073190 683417 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1535073316 959979 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Client Quit < 1535073349 403853 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1535073427 590343 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Client Quit < 1535073570 240958 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1535073892 709416 :clog!~nef@bespin.org QUIT :Quit: ^C < 1535073965 824948 :nodist!~nodist@pool-108-41-59-111.nycmny.fios.verizon.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535074279 389507 :nodist!~nodist@pool-108-41-59-111.nycmny.fios.verizon.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1535074598 794167 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1535074638 332544 :clog!~nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1535076517 292329 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535076647 762997 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1535077184 579529 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-jnbqbimtrqwptcsn QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1535077730 91052 :sparr!~sparr@pdpc/supporter/active/sparr QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077730 947313 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077733 451121 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077802 984894 :sparr!~sparr@pdpc/supporter/active/sparr JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077802 984941 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077802 984949 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077922 785397 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077922 914940 :olsner!~salparot@c83-253-165-33.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077925 136285 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077926 989873 :paul2520!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077926 989909 :G33kDude!~G33kDude@unaffiliated/g33kdude QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077927 686864 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077929 644517 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077930 564409 :subleq!~gavin@207.173.246.52 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077931 132891 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6aa5-174.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077931 132952 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077931 948101 :Yurume_______!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077932 164500 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-jqwsbcpmkduagqgf QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077932 601980 :Melvar!~melvar@dslb-002-203-038-071.002.203.pools.vodafone-ip.de QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535077933 148050 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077947 234754 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-5d6aa5-174.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077947 299826 :paul2520!~paul2520@paulkaefer.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077957 42564 :hakatashi!~hakatashi@104.131.49.125 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077958 863081 :heroux_!sandroco@gateway/shell/insomnia247/x-rfiznuhxsjagkwkx JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077981 210742 :Melvar!~melvar@2.203.38.71 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535077998 709504 :Yurume_______!23f9939a@121.78.85.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535078035 319183 :rodgort!~rodgort@68.ip-149-56-14.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535078037 972047 :G33kDude!~G33kDude@c-174-53-70-27.hsd1.wv.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535078070 964661 :mniip!mniip@freenode/staff/mniip JOIN :#esoteric < 1535078080 563380 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf QUIT :Quit: Reconnecting < 1535078086 707020 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1535078198 116859 :paul2520!~paul2520@paulkaefer.com NICK :Guest61282 < 1535078273 484341 :Guest61282!~paul2520@paulkaefer.com QUIT :Changing host < 1535078273 484409 :Guest61282!~paul2520@unaffiliated/paul2520 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535078404 410906 :G33kDude!~G33kDude@c-174-53-70-27.hsd1.wv.comcast.net NICK :Guest56097 < 1535078581 462078 :shachaf!~shachaf@li227-219.members.linode.com QUIT :Changing host < 1535078581 462128 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079152 839538 :subleq!~gavin@207.173.246.52 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079252 863791 :olsner!~salparot@c83-253-165-33.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079339 876756 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079452 82207 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535079633 717801 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079789 387350 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079826 809197 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1535079951 4914 :lynn_!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zdwwqpewbpbmtblo QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079951 678123 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-fzmnopphcquteojb QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079952 663078 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079953 353644 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079954 50969 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079955 229827 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079955 600801 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079956 931037 :Storkman_!~Storkman@storkman.xyz QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079958 299711 :zemhill____!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079958 299781 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079960 661412 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:d808:948b:f3ce:8c22 QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079963 16485 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079963 186974 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079963 283832 :puck!~puck@puckipedia.com QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079967 583445 :trn!jhj@prone.ws QUIT :*.net *.split < 1535079996 509264 :lynn_!sid154965@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-zdwwqpewbpbmtblo JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509338 :Lord_of_Life!Elite12246@gateway/shell/elitebnc/x-fzmnopphcquteojb JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509353 :shikhin!shikhin@unaffiliated/shikhin JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509365 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509377 :erdic!~erdic@unaffiliated/motley JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509389 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509401 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509416 :Storkman_!~Storkman@storkman.xyz JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509428 :zemhill____!bfjoust@selene.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1535079996 509440 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot JOIN :#esoteric < 1535080016 801690 :puckipedia!~puck@puckipedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1535080079 234576 :Cale!~cale@2607:fea8:995f:fb71:d808:948b:f3ce:8c22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535080079 257278 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie JOIN :#esoteric < 1535080079 257339 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1535080079 257369 :trn!jhj@prone.ws JOIN :#esoteric < 1535081134 573381 :SakiiR1!~SakiiR@112.171.212.93 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535081201 319485 :SakiiR1!~SakiiR@112.171.212.93 QUIT :Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)) < 1535082665 313818 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535082700 416963 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1535084436 394437 :nct56!~alfalfa@unaffiliated/irrationalist JOIN :#esoteric < 1535085890 716581 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1535086001 389414 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535086141 437181 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1535086276 829501 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535086326 320490 :Sgeo__!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1535087460 713551 :nct56!~alfalfa@unaffiliated/irrationalist QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1535090925 829702 :olsner!~salparot@c83-253-165-33.bredband.comhem.se QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in < 1535091064 656459 :olsner!~salparot@c83-253-165-33.bredband.comhem.se JOIN :#esoteric > 1535092537 516158 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57431&oldid=57411 5* 03A 5* (+106) 10/* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */ < 1535092645 468165 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sadrbxursmhwybyv QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity > 1535092854 341972 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57432&oldid=57431 5* 03A 5* (+104) 10 > 1535093490 413919 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57433&oldid=57307 5* 03A 5* (+138) 10I have another attempt. > 1535093568 129808 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57434&oldid=57432 5* 03A 5* (+80) 10 < 1535093646 442540 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1535094494 721262 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535094548 899995 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 276 seconds < 1535094786 18035 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535095025 692327 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535095453 649307 :ep100!~max@105.229.18.254 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535095668 412740 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds > 1535096983 884205 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ackermann function14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57435&oldid=8525 5* 03A 5* (+263) 10And another implementation that exactly obeys the explanation on Wikipedia > 1535097132 781838 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ackermann function14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57436&oldid=57435 5* 03A 5* (-23) 10 > 1535097342 552601 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Quine14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57437&oldid=11533 5* 03A 5* (+71) 10On Wikipedia < 1535097622 971511 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1535098283 950989 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535098988 959694 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1535098989 319665 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1535098989 342167 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1535099907 641768 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1535101122 852375 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1535101302 650777 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1535101535 698195 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1535101751 384174 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1535102847 229907 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION morning < 1535104758 657223 :ep100!~max@105.229.18.254 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1535105617 642078 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535106275 666892 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535107459 189212 :boily!~alexandre@cable-192.222.236.157.electronicbox.net QUIT :Quit: FORWARD CHICKEN < 1535107463 418694 :Fogity!~Fogity@hr-sgs.kvi.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds < 1535107483 648729 :Fogity!~Fogity@hr-sgs.kvi.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1535108314 749757 :Vorpal!~Vorpal@unaffiliated/vorpal QUIT :Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net < 1535109563 695343 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcyubmiwvquludfu JOIN :#esoteric < 1535110449 973801 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535111401 452845 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-siyccjzqgrmtqndr JOIN :#esoteric > 1535116574 7774 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Printf14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57438 5* 03A 5* (+503) 10Created page with "printf is a simple programming language. ==Syntax== It is really VERY simple. It is a version of C in which you can't use any of the keywords and there is only a function cal..." > 1535116584 511873 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Printf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57439&oldid=57438 5* 03A 5* (+1) 10 > 1535116626 783732 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Printf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57440&oldid=57439 5* 03A 5* (+0) 10 > 1535116657 846241 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Printf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57441&oldid=57440 5* 03A 5* (+4) 10 < 1535117105 448083 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed JOIN :#esoteric > 1535117610 783800 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57442&oldid=57076 5* 03Fogity 5* (+285) 10/* Example programs */ Added Ackermann function < 1535118928 180444 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca JOIN :#esoteric > 1535119106 149505 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Printf14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57443&oldid=57441 5* 03Zzo38 5* (-103) 10 < 1535119242 51656 :Guest27432!~Diamond@p54895D33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1535119355 423147 :Guest27432!~Diamond@p54895D33.dip0.t-ipconnect.de QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535119884 272418 :cwre!~cwre@188.233.94.78 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535120164 26229 :cwre!~cwre@188.233.94.78 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection > 1535120492 315504 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:A14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57444&oldid=56687 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+396) 10/* Categorization */ new section < 1535120564 492833 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hope it wasn’t too sarcastic :D < 1535122008 461917 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1535122414 77 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535122542 700615 :Sgeo!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1535123089 202326 :rubdos25!~rubdos@220.88.106.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535123214 922063 :rubdos25!~rubdos@220.88.106.22 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535123342 13264 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1535123579 142219 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-siyccjzqgrmtqndr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1535124161 970403 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535126091 278330 :tromp_!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535127432 718778 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1535128050 752000 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535128311 698923 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535128514 498407 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535128630 853261 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric < 1535129094 690648 :Fogity!~Fogity@hr-sgs.kvi.sgsnet.se QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1535129295 233367 :Fogity!~Fogity@hr-sgs.kvi.sgsnet.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1535129723 468430 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcyubmiwvquludfu NICK :parentbot < 1535129745 350006 :parentbot!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcyubmiwvquludfu NICK :xkapastel < 1535129809 999567 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535129960 574438 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qcyubmiwvquludfu QUIT : < 1535130186 743459 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535130489 454337 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535131430 369914 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vlmnjasdnwusotfv JOIN :#esoteric < 1535131474 994601 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1535131475 228647 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1535131475 228696 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1535131779 967592 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535132271 725067 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535132428 22191 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535132610 443000 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1535133030 827362 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535133448 16924 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling JOIN :#esoteric < 1535133525 353618 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't just window functions in the next version of SQLite, but also a few bug fixes including one having to do with upsert. < 1535133627 653110 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535133688 541376 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :has it been proven that Ⅎ requires parentheses to be Turing-complete? < 1535133854 980734 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, hmm, maybe it's a PDA without them? < 1535134022 94725 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, without parens a program always expands into a list of funtions that exist within the original program, evaluating consists of popping the first so many list entries and pushing the definition < 1535134026 814494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which can only see a finite depth into the stack < 1535134062 879306 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and parens allow multiple functions to be grouped, Underload-style, so that list elements can become arbitrarily complex and thus break through the PDA barrier < 1535134587 783607 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This document https://sqlite.org/appfileformat.html mentions four kind of application file formats (fully custom, pile-of-files, wrapped-pile-of-files, SQLite), but also, a SQLite database can be used like wrapped-pile-of-files, and also you can have pile-of-wrapped-pile-of-files, and Microsoft Word format is a wrapped-pile-of-files too actually. < 1535134667 744039 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind os best depend on the use. < 1535134963 289679 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535135078 698787 :brandonson!~brandon@208.91.114.1 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535135093 757312 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535135110 955993 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think Ⅎ requires one level of parenthesis, but not more, to be TC, but I'm not quite sure. < 1535135194 743453 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've been thinking somewhat of a different language with the same goal (the minimal essence of functional programming), which has a somewhat similar goal, but is clearly not the same language. < 1535135250 611448 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That language is more complicated to define, because it needs more primitives, but might be slightly easier to implement. < 1535135289 626654 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially easier to implement if you want non-conservative garbage collection for it. < 1535135380 120531 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: one is enough, yes < 1535135383 946312 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can define s with that < 1535135385 984076 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and k doesn't need any < 1535135438 93910 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a finalized canon version of my language though, only vague ideas. < 1535135474 482294 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My goal was more a compromise towards being very easy to implement, rather than "the essence". < 1535135520 458528 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also more compromise to being somewhat easy to use and somewhat efficient, although still not a production language. < 1535135558 967554 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :More like a toy language to illustrate language design and implementing an interpreter and programs in it. < 1535135606 719230 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, this implies that Ⅎ is TC with exactly one pair of parentheses in the whole program < 1535135650 74368 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess Consumer Society would replace its goals in parts, although that one is more esoteric in design and less easy to implement and less easy to use. < 1535135654 970084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I finally got around to reading about ALGOL 68. < 1535135667 253854 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wow < 1535135668 120805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seems like a good language. < 1535135674 882110 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's surprising, but sounds true < 1535135675 284608 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What have PL people done anything in the past 50 years? < 1535135697 431972 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algol 68 has some really interesting ideas, but is possibly somewhat impractical < 1535135705 314373 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it was a failure at the time because nobody could figure out how to implement it < 1535135712 212494 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with reasonable efficiency < 1535135759 549474 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, it still looks more advanced in a way than "mainstream" imperative languages, we've spent the last 50 years just catching back up to it < 1535135797 108157 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: C (which was a low level language better aligned to the computers of that era), modern C++ (more powerful and expressive than C), and rust (tries to redo stupid historical problems in C++ while having somewhat the same goals, it's a bit young yet and not fully mature, but otoh C++ is now overmature) < 1535135804 895153 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the cutting-edge research has mostly been in different paradigms < 1535135824 294508 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Algol 68 had all sorts of great features that C and C++ don't have. < 1535135844 252415 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: all three of these have similar paradigms and goals as algol and fortran I think, but are updated with what can be done on more modern machines < 1535135853 539651 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: can you be more specific? I don't know algol 68 < 1535135857 861344 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was admittedly garbage collected, which is pretty odd for 50 years ago (and maybe odd for today). < 1535135859 110133 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what great features specifically? < 1535135872 264894 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ALGOL_68_and_C%2B%2B talks about some of it. < 1535135884 53300 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think it was odd 50 years ago. wasn't that already when lisp machines with gc were established? < 1535135895 853310 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, some of them only had gc for fixed-size conses < 1535135897 683929 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1535135929 766252 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :prolog has gc, but is newer < 1535135930 177278 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, odd for a language that might be in competition with C. < 1535135947 990655 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: Also thanks for mentioning Geo, it's more similar to the things I was looking for than I though. < 1535135965 927532 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I don't think C was meant to be in direct competition with algol < 1535135988 563766 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was certainly inspired, but then most programming languages are inspired by the other popular programming languages that already existed < 1535135989 87603 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I figured out what "break", "continue", "return" etc. mean, I don't remember whether I mentioned. < 1535135992 8426 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C is a B derivative that adds a type system < 1535136002 839706 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and B was focused on being as easy to implement as possible < 1535136042 672992 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: break, continue, return in what? I admit geo's documentation isn't really complete, and in particular I have no idea what the precise semantics of "var" declarations are. < 1535136057 533115 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :When you have labeled exit, break/continue/return all just mean exit to a particular label. < 1535136070 896297 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, it's a weird toy language that I made long ago and frozen, it's not a good language, I don't stand by the decisions I made for it anymore. < 1535136081 105557 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, we talked aboutr that < 1535136091 225423 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, I didn't remember whether I put it that way. < 1535136102 379663 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So "return x;" just means "exit @return_label x;" < 1535136144 673559 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algol 68 had nonlocal goto. So strange. < 1535136158 63605 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Was it Algol 68 that you mentioned call-by-name semantics for not long ago? < 1535136178 653940 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think I mentioned that the C standard and IIRC the C++ standard *define* them that way. the full definition is tricky because they act on both while/do-while/for loops and switches, but < 1535136202 51808 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gotos are certainly the easiest way to define them in those languages, because they match how they affect the lexical scope and runtime scope of variables. < 1535136210 323796 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/runtime scope/runtime liveness/ < 1535136244 892332 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the construction and deconstruction of variables and temporaries too in C++. < 1535136355 543699 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying this for C and C++ in particular, it's slightly less true in perl, and even less true in ruby and rust. < 1535136370 673252 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway the reason I ended up reading about Algol 68 was that I was trying to figure out what lvalues are. < 1535136385 309502 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C has the notion of lvalues and also of pointers, and they're pretty similar. < 1535136405 670582 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what do you mean by "call-by-name"? do you mean just passing function arguments by a pointer/reference to them? because I think fortran has that. < 1535136419 954222 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535136427 823492 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember the example ais523 gave was pretty surprising but I don't remember the details now. < 1535136431 108493 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's tricky because every language treats lvalues differently. < 1535136464 841858 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Algol 68, as far as I can tell, you don't don't ever declare mutable variables exactly. < 1535136468 799795 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what do you mean by nonlocal goto? goto across function boundaries? < 1535136492 464051 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can pass a goto label as an argument to a function, and it looks to it like a function pointer. < 1535136515 815337 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh, computed/indirect goto. wow. < 1535136533 156569 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So the equivalent of "int x = 5;" is something like "int *const x = stack_allocate; *x = 5;" < 1535136538 699787 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(With a shorthand syntax.)b < 1535136583 656096 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no direct mutable variables is surprising for that age, but I'm not sure if it's a feature over C and C++, because you can use one-element arrays in C and references in C++ in a somewhat similar way. < 1535136614 601126 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ references are something weird and suspicious. < 1535136629 442397 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact there's a trick in C where a library header defines an opaque type as a one-element array if such values are to be passed to library functions by reference but can be allocated on the stack. < 1535136640 32357 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :GMP does that for example < 1535136661 179914 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they're weird, but part of the weirdness is that it took a long time to figure out the right semantics, so there are some historical mistakes on them < 1535136704 839976 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not so sure they've figured out the right semantics anyway. < 1535136708 806233 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :done right I think references are a good tool, although one that is prone to overusing < 1535136719 283230 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: they're working on it, and some of it is too late to fix < 1535136730 348102 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of it they're still trying to add to future versions < 1535136741 545012 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are multiple problems to be solved < 1535136777 780366 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly connected with efficient handling of refs to data structures that are not trivial to copy or move or initialize empty or destroy < 1535136799 714373 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but also with just the current syntax and library support not being good enough < 1535136807 697416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ is so complicated. < 1535136817 887571 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the Algol system because it seems simpler than the C system. < 1535136835 769219 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how they combine with more questionable features, such as the new initializer-list-arguments and variadic templates < 1535136846 512823 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though the implicit coercions between ref int and int and so on are suspicious. < 1535136882 383587 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: but does the algol system has any inefficiencies, like things you can't do efficiently because of them or that are hard to do efficiently? < 1535136918 115641 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially in low-level programs that want to be efficient at runtime < 1535136922 582829 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which C wants to support < 1535136938 369602 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it'd be the same? < 1535136957 630283 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know algol, that's why I'm asking < 1535136993 461416 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't either. < 1535137090 463137 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust references are very different, they're less powerful than the C++ ones (at least currently, they're working on some of that), and have very different kinds of magic from the C++ references (and I hate some of the rust magic, but some of it is about traits, and that magic would be already there without references, references just make it worse) < 1535137148 902978 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rust has references? < 1535137155 595805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought they just have different kinds of pointers. < 1535137236 445991 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sort of. there's something they call references, which differ from the pointers it also has (and the pointers differ from C pointers, but that's a different question), they have very different goals from C++ references, but some of the goals are shared. < 1535137383 450715 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: here's an example of call-by-name (pseudocode C-like syntax): int x = 3; int f(int y) {x = 5; return y+1;} print(f(x+4)); < 1535137389 438121 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, C pointers are easy to almost simulate with rust pointers, so rust is strictly more powerful in them, with the exception that rust doesn't have an offsetof < 1535137391 925468 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this prints 10 < 1535137405 417766 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Rust has C pointers too < 1535137432 76795 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, it has rust pointers, which are similar to C pointers but differ in two ways < 1535137446 329706 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, two ways not counting the lack of offsetof < 1535137452 37969 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you can think of call-by-name as effectively passing the concept of "x+4" as an argument, as opposed to 7 (i.e. the value of x+4) < 1535137495 872999 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wow, that is strange to have in such an old language, especially if it has that by default. that means making automatic closures. < 1535137522 692305 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :languages took a lot of time until they started to support even explicit closures, except for lisp, most of which had it from the start < 1535137529 956300 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... I'm not sure < 1535137534 612633 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe lisp didn't have them from the start < 1535137557 831526 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think it requires closures? it requires some sort of lightweight functional thing, but I don't think it's a closure < 1535137562 178627 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it doesn't capture anything < 1535137602 992219 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, unless you allow recursion, in which case it captures the current stack depth so that it can disambiguate which version of a local variable you mean < 1535137603 401494 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both scheme and common lisp has them now, but in scheme and haskell and standard ml, function references and named functions have close to the same syntax and behavior, whereas in common lisp they have different syntax, and in prolog they have different syntax and behavior < 1535137681 204995 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it captures at least a pointer to stack. some C++ closures and gcc C closures are implemented that way, although C++ doesn't strictly speaking guarantees this, < 1535137702 77564 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think "captures a pointer to stack" is the right way to think about this < 1535137721 943492 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's the same concept as a gcc nested function < 1535137733 325662 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is also suffering from the lack of a good name < 1535137741 388740 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although C++/rust closures have a code size hit because they're specialized for each closure body, whereas gcc C closures have a runtime hit, because they're implemented in a way that that their calling convention is compatible with plain C functions < 1535137755 625576 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, the trampoline < 1535137856 173554 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Are you sure Algol 68 does that? < 1535137859 459474 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's also the part where gcc C functions require an executable stack, which people hate these days, but that wasn't yet the case when gcc C closures were invented, because back then most CPU MMUs didn't support non-executable readable memory areas on a flat address arch < 1535137876 844249 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Algol 68 doesn't do that, call-by-name is an Algol 60 thing < 1535137886 903706 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1535137893 230889 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Algol 68 changed to call-by-value because people found call-by-name too confusing and too hard to implement < 1535137896 228705 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I think gcc's primary target were flat address CPUs even back then < 1535137935 817407 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :That makes sense. < 1535137938 339681 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as opposed to segmented ones, which did support non-executable readable segments, which in fact was easy to implement in 286 since they already had to support at least three differently executable segments, if not four < 1535137942 324145 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :more I think < 1535137964 633246 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :16 bit versus 32 bit, and normal executable segments vs interrupt gates vs system call gates, and I think that's partly orthogonal < 1535137975 559823 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 bit only on the 386 I guess < 1535138027 272941 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I believe fortran has had call by reference from the start, which is easier. it just involves passing a transparent-syntax pointer to the argument, even if the argument is a temporary < 1535138075 167830 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"call-by-reference" is basically just call-by-lvalue (whereas "call-by-value" is call-by-rvalue) < 1535138083 961706 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programming languages stopped that when functions got cheap enough that people started to make a lot of them, and call by ref became a severe runtime performance hit, especially because cross-compilation-unit it can't be optimized away < 1535138094 543937 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. < 1535138094 724043 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by-reference and by-value are basically identical, just differ in whether it's an lvalue or rvalue you're passing < 1535138118 220503 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a bit skeptical of lvalues, I think. < 1535138122 624102 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think Perl is a good example of an actually call-by-reference language < 1535138129 645668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's also capable of return-by-reference, which is just bizarre < 1535138139 205731 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but exclusive call-by-reference is not a good idea if you want efficient low-level programming, which was a goal of C from the start < 1535138157 697247 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ... perl is strange though, also for historical reasons < 1535138162 17544 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only use for return-by-reference I've discovered so far is the array syntax in A Pear Tree < 1535138211 508158 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is return-by-reference? < 1535138216 625869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl parses "x[3]" as a call to the function x whose argument is an anonymous array reference to an array containing only the element 3 < 1535138217 616193 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :BASIC does call by reference normally but you can specify BYVAL if you want by values instead < 1535138228 696928 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ operator[] returns references which seems like one of the only justifications for having references maybe. < 1535138239 783778 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's actually possible to write this function such that you can make it return the array element as an lvalue, so you can still assign to it < 1535138245 145453 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's even more strange that perl has had builtins returning magical references, namely vec and substr, before it had user-definable magic scalars < 1535138247 551084 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: come to think of it, this implies that Ⅎ is TC with exactly one pair of parentheses in the whole program => great and neat, I’ll include it in the article with the now obvious s-k proof < 1535138275 613472 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they added that syntax for substr because BASIC had it (at least most dialects, some BASICs don't even have strings) < 1535138284 255429 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: @_ is magical too, stealing the magic from @_ is a fun way to do programming puzzles < 1535138293 945315 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, I know < 1535138299 886061 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a link for that too < 1535138355 109733 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(BYVAL is only valid for numbers though; it cannot be used with strings, structures, or arrays) < 1535138492 717511 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a pointer is a thing whose value is a memory location; an lvalue is a memory location. Is that right? < 1535138605 62279 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=302287 question 1 and 3, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=376362 exercise 6 IIRC < 1535138606 967965 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe an lvalue is a thing that has a memory location, instead. < 1535138616 132729 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :about perl @_ magic < 1535138639 62812 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: again, in what language? < 1535138658 658097 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :C. < 1535138691 506251 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in that case, for C pointers to objects and C lvalues, yes, for pointers to functions, usually but not necessarily < 1535138750 917579 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the type of the pointer may restrict what memory locations are allowed, but a void * can point to any data or function (except bitfields) and you can losslessly use it that way < 1535138772 756413 :nfd!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535138785 732242 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a struct {} * can point to any structure or union (which may be a bit more restrictive on crazy architectures) < 1535138828 125342 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: C technically has lvalues to bitfields, and you can't have pointers to them < 1535138844 104288 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're rare and I hate them < 1535138879 902702 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hate bitfields, and they'd be basically unusable without lvalues.) < 1535138939 371378 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously, "a memory location" is quite general, because C is defined in such a way that you can store practically anything in a memory location, possibly with some indirection involved < 1535138947 749215 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you can allocate new memory locations and put anything in them < 1535138977 251983 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :char * is actually the most general pointer < 1535138982 226621 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :not void * < 1535139000 50727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I already know how Perl @_ magic works < 1535139004 867764 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's possibly more insane than you'd think < 1535139016 843217 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure, I'm just showing some examples of its insane uses < 1535139020 760893 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :specifically, functions like memcpy take char * not void * < 1535139021 45258 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: did you solve your build system < 1535139024 6661 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, the internal implementation of Perl arrays is sufficiently general to allow them to contain other arrays, and even hashes < 1535139030 517250 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not references to them, the array/hash itself) < 1535139035 542595 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no < 1535139039 108685 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm not sure you can make that happen without XS < 1535139042 411278 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might not know how insane it is, I know recent perl has specific optimizations to avoid the slowdown with @_'s crazyness in many cases when that's not needed < 1535139051 471363 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in fact it takes >12 hours now < 1535139120 348376 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think that would break invariants badly, but otoh arbitrary aliasing of scalars usually doesn't, it only breaks some optimizations, and there are some types of aliasing you can only do with XS or non-core modules. < 1535139136 935977 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: with that first link, an "intended solution" to question 5 actually got added to the language, presumably after that question was asked < 1535139215 367396 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: haha, I like the solution to exercise 1 that sets $[ < 1535139215 541272 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: even its implementation? this question allows you to use undocumented features or bugs, and refers to a specific version of perl < 1535139238 676354 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it'd be in a later version < 1535139270 118528 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably this was as a replacement for the "my $x if 0;" bug < 1535139337 631900 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how do you know what the intended solutions were? I'm not sure xmath ever said explicitly, he only gave hints, and he admitted that people found better solutions for some of the exercises < 1535139362 790336 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you're misreading my comment < 1535139378 718738 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean that Perl now has an intentional way to create a static variable lexically scoped to a single subroutine < 1535139380 509993 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I see < 1535139388 532644 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"an" intended solution, not "the" intended solution < 1535139394 436723 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's "scope" < 1535139421 955925 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1535139461 458951 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1535139462 769398 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"state" < 1535139465 51789 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not "scope" < 1535139775 482907 :LKoen_!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535139865 194182 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: hm i don't know why HackEso didn't respond to you, then. < 1535139869 779986 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those crazy old perl puzzles were fun, xmath even credits me with finding an alternate solution he didn't know of < 1535139902 464365 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it might have been an error on my part, like typoing his name (although I think I checked) or messaging him before I identified to freenode < 1535139927 761506 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535139930 699267 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it did reply to me later in similar conditions, it's probably solved < 1535139934 328815 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever it was < 1535139938 115603 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact let me ask him now < 1535139951 4730 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does answer me now < 1535139953 596238 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and quickly too < 1535139959 602268 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1535139974 926592 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't take twenty seconds to get swapped in like hackeso did < 1535139979 883795 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was mostly an upgrade < 1535139989 378208 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1535140022 409836 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should try to install 7za to it so I can extract compressed files downloaded with `fetch more easily < 1535140033 262026 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried for hackego but failed < 1535140039 416316 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it will work if I tried again < 1535140043 418364 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm lazy to try now < 1535140050 942515 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to install a binary < 1535140061 41334 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I think there was some incompatibility with system libraries < 1535140208 720935 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still can't tell if I should be proud or ashamed of having gotten two consecutive quotes in the hackeso quotedb > 1535140236 424281 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57445&oldid=57424 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+269) 10more about power > 1535140298 933866 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57446&oldid=57445 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (+6) 10a single word is worth more than a thousand dollars (no) < 1535140478 277488 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that think "usability unknown"? < 1535140483 237725 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Totally different topic. I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's pop science book. < 1535140492 264379 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esoprogrammers are good at using things, if it's TC it's almost certainly usable < 1535140513 966692 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess exceptions could be languages which were inherently very slow, or the like < 1535140514 803297 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why then there is that category? < 1535140528 84847 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it's for languages where we don't know if you can produce usable programs in them at all < 1535140537 80880 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaah < 1535140551 495436 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :For much of the book, he talks about his carreer as the director of a particle accelerator, including being responsible for keeping its budget, and then about convincing president Reagan to fund a more expensive future particle accelerator from state funds. < 1535140555 311609 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some languages which are sub-TC but obviously usable, like finite-tape brainfuck < 1535140572 120917 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there are some languages which we're not sure whether they approach any sort of meaningful computational class < 1535140590 48965 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I’ll delete that category from both Ⅎ and YE…A < 1535140642 131782 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then a bit later, he gives the simulee that the Big Bang is a "particle-accelerator without a budget constraint", and explains that astrophisicists are examining its consequences with space-based telescopes and making a model about it and that the physics research for astrophysics and particle physics connects. > 1535140655 955692 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07YEOOIIOOIOA14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57447&oldid=54939 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (-31) 10usability known! < 1535140691 400063 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Am I the only one who finds the "without budget constraints" part strange? Those space-based telescopes cost a ton of money, and Lenderman must have been familiar with that. > 1535140697 607618 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57448&oldid=57446 5* 03Arseniiv 5* (-31) 10it is completely usable when or if implemented < 1535140732 694212 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Usability_unknown is vague on the topic < 1535140766 897760 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should write something clearer, then < 1535140771 35423 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: try https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization , it often gives better desc of the categories < 1535140810 905383 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: not much clearer( < 1535140839 112602 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember I’ve read all that thoroughly when writing YE…A article :) < 1535140884 112295 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I keep reading that page just to remember what categories we use. I've made a page that has nine categories. < 1535140898 731583 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://esolangs.org/wiki/Game_of_Life < 1535140901 784030 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1535140921 289701 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not made, but extended seriously < 1535140962 827292 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's still short, but it was even shorter < 1535140973 851382 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's an important language because of its popularity < 1535140978 537095 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw doesn’t “Turing tarpits” imply “Turing-complete” (categorizationally speaking)? < 1535140984 586097 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, like Intercal < 1535140999 248318 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, GoL is < 1535141006 848294 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :…something… < 1535141008 784182 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: yes, but we still add both categories to most lang pages apparently < 1535141015 362057 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it does, but I think we decided to put both categories on < 1535141018 748144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a discussion about it a while back < 1535141030 633260 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few pages that only have the tarpit, but they might be mistakes < 1535141039 932756 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, there are language pages still missing [[Category:Languages]] < 1535141046 553517 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a mistake too > 1535141070 197459 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07IPVL14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57449&oldid=56995 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-27) 10Eviscerate non-category < 1535141082 881819 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish the main namespace was reserved for languages (plus redirects), but we don't want to change that now < 1535141106 103711 :xkapastel!~user@142.93.249.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535141121 308531 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :though they say when Conway got to know High life, he said that in a fair world it should be named the life instead of the usual one < 1535141157 257112 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are a few pages that only have the tarpit, but they might be mistakes => oh then I’ll add this one too < 1535141160 720748 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like how the main namespace of Wiktionary is reserved for headword entries (so much that [[Main Page]] is a redirect IIRC), the one for Wikimedia Commons is reserved for galleries, and the one for wikidata is reserved for entries that aren't even in wikitext format < 1535141188 944477 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the one for wikidata is reserved for entries that aren't even in wikitext format => :D hehe > 1535141192 318936 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57450&oldid=57159 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-27) 10Eviscerate non-category < 1535141208 316183 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: don't believe that to me btw, believe that to ais523 or other trusted people < 1535141276 238426 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: well, it's fair, because that's the main purpose and the largest amount of entries in wikidata, and those entries are still "wiki" in the sense that they're easy to edit by anyone and have full dated version history unfalsifiable by non-admis readable to everyone > 1535141290 684638 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Printf14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57451&oldid=57443 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-27) 10No such thing < 1535141328 319941 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: believe that to ais523 or other trusted people => reasonable precaution (however I don’t think you’re that far from the consensus) < 1535141356 896267 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: Commons should probably have had media as its main namespace, but they'd have to modify the mediawiki software for that, which probably wasn't worth the trouble, since media files in their own separate namespace was already supported by default in mediawiki (although commons has some enchancements since) < 1535141451 497423 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Commons isn't as strange as Wikidata: the media still all come with a description page in wikitext format, which can be edited and read and version historied and dump downloaded and categorized independently from the media content, and I believe you can even create a page in the namespace with zero versions of the media content uploaded, only < 1535141451 563874 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric : shouldn't. < 1535141558 15898 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: ais and the other wiki admins work hard to enforce the conventions < 1535141584 238398 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: by the way, I wanted to ask, where is your nick from, is there a canon pronunciation, and does the "iiv" part want to be a roman numeral? < 1535141630 795180 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah this is asked sometimes! < 1535141678 951194 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd note that tom7 also calls himself Tom Murphy VII, and explains why on his homepage < 1535141689 480284 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but iiv isn't a real roman numeral < 1535141692 829846 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's stranger < 1535141695 53787 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :iv could still be < 1535141703 559595 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which part is asked? < 1535141738 265917 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :people often ask these questions about nicks of various people online, so it's not too surprising > 1535141758 578669 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Ackermann function14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57452&oldid=57436 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-213) 10There's no real difference other than for negatives, so instead change the shorter one to use unsigned. < 1535141866 341413 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually get asked if I named myself of the band called "Jonas Brothers" (no, no relation, I hadn't even heard of them until I started using this nick) or < 1535141887 910542 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the "b_" means (nothing much, I just wanted a distinguishing prefix because I previously used "jonas" and still use it on some forums (in the broad sense), but I like the letter "b", it's not too common, and it is the only letter to appear twice in my real world name) < 1535141919 233484 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They rarely ask how I pronounce it or why "jonas", but sometimes I volunteer to tell the latter anyway. > 1535141929 703736 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Brainfuck14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57453&oldid=57433 5* 03Oerjan 5* (-138) 10This section is for proofs, let's not add unfinished stuff. < 1535141956 911471 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although some forums have a general thread addressing every user in general for what their nick origin is, so that could count. < 1535142021 646177 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On perlmonks the respective thread was for a while called "the node that must not be linked" because it was too long and so put a large demand on the server when many people clicked on a link to it at the same time < 1535142053 491934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, now I wonder how easy it would be to make forum software which worked by editing a static HTML page whenever a comment was posted, incrementally < 1535142057 912485 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since threads in that forum are hierarchical, but don't have a paging system, so they show every reply up to a certain depth when you load a thread in the default view < 1535142141 312412 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION assumed arseniiv was a russian surname < 1535142153 820875 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate interfaces that have a stupid paging system that shows too few entries of a list and are hard to navigate, in general, not just for forum threads. I understand why you need restrictions on how much you of a list show to conserve server and client resources, but many software are overdoing it. < 1535142156 318960 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :originally, it came from my first name Arseni[i] and a letter from a patronymic (IDK why I did that, it was long ago), *but* it’s completely normal to read it as arseni⋅iv, as when it’s a Roman numeral (but what would it mean? It could mean anything or just itself, I don’t mean) < 1535142156 430709 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for the pronunciation part, I myself use something like /arsʲenʲiˈiv/ (whch is somewhat strange as my name is stressed on the second syllable) < 1535142216 628530 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: besides tom7, ais523 and sam512 use numerals in their nick. (sam512 has changed his nick to qntm since). it's sort of common to use numerals in nicks. < 1535142241 193454 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: haha maybe there is one like this < 1535142249 69529 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arsenii is a given name? interesting < 1535142266 64471 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: did he say it's russian? < 1535142272 17792 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait does qntm appear here? < 1535142282 119785 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: he doesn't, and he's not related to esolangs < 1535142289 319767 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1535142306 743781 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a pity he doesn’t < 1535142326 425508 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: he's mostly known as a sci-fi writer who publishes short story series online, and has an old webcomic, his homepage is http://qntm.org/ < 1535142340 168624 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah I know :) < 1535142346 94399 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he has a presence on the internet and reacts to emails and comments and messages < 1535142354 535387 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :we’ve discussed this even(?) < 1535142358 348430 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well it looks russian, and he is. < 1535142386 896700 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote him a email once, but I fear it was considered spam, as he hadn’t replied < 1535142510 792043 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, maybe he only _used to_ react to emails, but he still gives his email address on https://qntm.org/contact and reacts to comments on his webpage. What he has redacted is (what I presume is) his real name. < 1535142525 219442 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also the old alias "sam523" from qntm now. < 1535142537 679554 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still find traces to it in some links, but they're better hidden. < 1535142569 199729 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes he seemed to write it was his name < 1535142602 413829 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I dunno why he does that, since people know him under both of those, and this makes it harder to use a web search to find his webpage based on them (though probably still not too hard) < 1535142638 55638 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know them under those names from back when he used both and haven't started using qntm as a nick < 1535142669 741017 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the other hand, David Madore uses three names too, but is pretty public about all three of them < 1535142674 121632 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC he was posting Ed stories somewhere as if it was a diary, so a reader doesn’t suspect it’s a story (unles she have read other ones) and then woah! is it real? < 1535142679 837273 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and even his middle name)( < 1535142700 608190 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: um... what do you mean it is real? I'm quite sure they're fictional < 1535142712 707369 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed they are < 1535142721 199380 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't think he ever claimed they weren't, out of universe < 1535142759 475605 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean he used a trope when eh I don’t know how it’s descripted in a small count of words < 1535142772 97590 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :he posted them on everything2 originally, and I think he still uses the nick sam512 there, plus he has a story about a robot called "sam512", and mentions his real name in his webcomic among others < 1535142807 307141 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one about robot was after all that, wasn’t it? < 1535142843 309672 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :after everything2 I mean < 1535142860 894112 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I don’t get hyperlinking in everything2 < 1535142868 236103 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it’s strange < 1535142986 757127 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: it's an odd system, yes. but then consider how mandatory automatic hyperlinks to CamelCase words and recommended CamelCase page titles was quite popular back then, eg. the c3 wiki, tiki wiki, and IIRC Wikipedia at its start did that too, and it's a pretty stupid idea, and tiki wiki's stupid formatter rules make it even worse < 1535143108 768430 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535143111 706025 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, tiki wiki has several automatic formatting features that come up too often in normal text where you don't want them, but it's hard to escape them, because you have to use a bang prefix to escape them, and you have to know the precise formatter rules because if you add a bang prefix to anything that wouldn't be special formatting, it < 1535143111 812887 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :will show up as a literal bang, < 1535143128 985437 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535143135 184485 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was to say, last time I’ve seen it, there were links to common words, and what they mean is a mystery until you follow them < 1535143142 340769 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :these features being at least automatic CamelCase links, superscript formatting of text between carets, and some bracketed stuff < 1535143186 203985 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although CamelCase links are definitely not a great idea, agree < 1535143216 775722 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediawiki has much fewer of these stupid formatting features that stand in your way, and much better ways to escape them, although formatting everything indented with spaces as pre blocks is probably a mistake in mediawiki < 1535143244 607772 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :bang bang my wiki shot me down < 1535143247 48711 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: they wouldn't be such a bad idea if they were easier to escape, or if they only showed up when the page exists and when you're previewing a page you're editing. < 1535143283 532507 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is that no wiki is perfect, and most of them are very hard on the system administrators that have to run them, harder than on useres < 1535143311 368610 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(btw how good do you think is Markdown (with common extras) for wikis?) < 1535143375 26075 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I've seen many different types of wikis, including two different ones I used as an internal wiki at my previous job, although only from the user and a bit from the moderator side, not from the system administrator side < 1535143380 828647 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of them was tiki wiki < 1535143434 101621 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :arseniiv: I don't much like Markdown, and I specifically dislike the StackExchange formatter, which is based on it but changed a lot, but it's better than some other wikis, and still better than tiki wiki < 1535143500 285395 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I especially hate the variants of the formatter that StackExchange uses for chat lines and for comments resp (as opposed to questions and answers) < 1535143590 123555 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like Markdown much either; I like the MediaWiki format < 1535143647 788831 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :What I particularly like in MediaWiki is that it allows you to fall back to a large subset of HTML syntax for when its other syntax are hard to use for the formatting you want. I think zzo38 doesn't like this part. < 1535143689 848477 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is convenient because the HTML syntax is sometimes more general, and many people already know enough of it to be able to use some of it on mediawiki without having to read that part of mediawiki manual. < 1535143716 393602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: this is also the intended way to do anything nontrivial in Markdown < 1535143717 101915 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :StackExchange's Markdown supports only a smaller subset of HTML, although that is partly deliberate, to restrict what formatting you're allowed to use. < 1535143722 735873 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535143723 472822 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which defeats one of the main points of Markdown < 1535143760 877170 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't know. I think it's a good idea for a wiki formatting language in general, it's just that Markdown's goals are stupid. < 1535143765 773524 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO there are three major goals in a markup syntax: a) be easy/fast to write, b) be readable in the raw markup without rendering it (ideally the markup should look very like the end result), c) be fully general < 1535143785 438985 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :markdown fails somewhat at all three < 1535143799 153597 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although its main high point is a) as long as you're doing simple things < 1535143822 692078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be interesting to create one that goes all-in on b) and c), perhaps even using things like trailing whitespace to disambiguate < 1535143836 702273 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :If (or when) I design a wiki syntax, then I'll make it mostly based on HTML, with some convenient shorthands like in mediawiki, but even more than mediawiki, because I'll add fewer convenience shortcuts, and I'll make the syntax of custom additions be similar in syntax to HTML. < 1535143866 522917 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Everything2/Perlmonks formatters (one is derived from the other) are aligned to that goal, but the execution isn't perfect. < 1535143894 320118 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, POD does very well at a), and better at b) and c) than Markdown does < 1535143908 875777 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, perlmonks has bracket links, which is good, and convenient custom syntax for both inline code and block code, which is good on a site that discusses a programming language, < 1535143910 991655 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fossil wiki format doesn't support HTML comments or macros; MediaWiki does both, and I think such thing should be added into Fossil as well < 1535143950 710230 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535143959 501674 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The system administrator could define macros by use of SQL codes and TH1 codes; if other users define macros then more restrictive SQL codes can be used.) < 1535144036 612815 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the bracket links trigger too easily, which is bad, and the format was made before unicode was introduced, so its source can only contain cp1252, of which the gravest consequence is that you can't put non-cp1252 characters in code (inline or block). < 1535144066 864796 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric : oh no it’s actually unlogged! <-- yeah esowiki or Mediawiki strips out most unicode from the announcements for some reason < 1535144100 484306 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In perlmonks, bracket links, special tags "c" and "code" and "spoiler" and "readmore", that aren't just a subset of HTML with restrictions for technical and policy reasons. < 1535144110 277009 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :umn < 1535144128 262674 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/that aren't/are the only formatter features that aren't/ < 1535144206 75913 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And bracket links almost always trigger if you use a shortest sequence of left square bracket then square bracket. < 1535144243 193598 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This causes problems especially in chat, because you have to escape indexes like [0] or [$x], which are common in perl code. < 1535144255 527064 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use the convenient c and code tags for them, but still < 1535144328 923571 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fossil wiki has the same problem, although you can use the command and you can also use HTML character entity codes. < 1535144365 365205 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The command in Fossil wiki also can use numbers such as so that it can work even if the text contains or or whatever) < 1535144379 108854 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also the popular bbcode, which is mostly popularized by phpbb now, and which has various different variants, which I think is also worse than mediawiki syntax but better than tikiwiki. < 1535144388 19629 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that feature is good and should be added into MediaWiki and bbcode too. < 1535144394 705834 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use multiple phpbb-based forums regularly, so I meet that a lot. < 1535144490 692041 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: nice. TikiWiki has a sort of nice solution for code by the way: surround it with triple brackets. perlmonks's is similar: surround it with ... or ..., case insensitive but whitespace sensitive, and is automatically a code block if it has newlines in it, inline code otherwise. < 1535144537 217034 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then what if the code contains triple brackets? < 1535144550 825716 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(For example, if you are showing a example of a TikiWiki code) < 1535144594 568365 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I think it has more tricky formatting mechanisms too, but I'm not sure. perhaps not in TikiWiki, but there would be in a well-designed wiki, and I think the triple braces aren't exclusive to tiki < 1535144595 671690 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fossil wiki also allows you to disable all wiki formatting for a wiki page, in case you want to use text only. < 1535144638 578904 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, that's useful for importing large amounts of data that is not wiki-formatted < 1535144664 381367 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would be even nicer if there was some automatic way to upgrade such a page to wiki-formatted so you can add formatted parts < 1535144685 959381 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, automatically creating a wiki-format text that is mostly equivalent with the plain text < 1535144701 241934 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that might need some tricky heuristics if you want to use it nicely < 1535144724 278317 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you don't just want to escape the whole text usually, that makes it hard to add formatting < 1535144725 722674 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could perhaps use an external program to do that, I suppose; the Fossil command-line interface can then be used together with it in order to post the changed file. < 1535144820 16135 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope ais523 will eventually write a vcs that's better than the existing ones. < 1535144837 327437 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But both designing and implementing one are very hard tasks. < 1535144848 524452 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got some distance with the designing < 1535144853 47585 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if you don't do it from scratch, but use existing vcses. < 1535144857 307778 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah, I know. < 1535144860 619842 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but haven't started implementing and it'd take way too long < 1535144869 807588 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I also know that both parts are difficult < 1535144939 820124 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have multiple requirements that interact in ways that I don't even know how to define a combined semantics that satisfies all of them. < 1535144995 543310 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh by the way, I'd like to add one more request to the vcs, and this one I think is easy to implement regardless everything else: < 1535145086 552502 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :make the official reference documentation available in some collected form such as a manpage or directory of html page like mercurial does, but unlike svn, which only provides it as the outputs of various svn --help commands and unlike hg it's not even easy to discover which such outputs exist. < 1535145134 955773 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to collect all the svn help outputs in the future, it seems feasable but haven't yet done it. I already know you need at least two depths of recursion from the root. < 1535145167 840822 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hg help lists all the help pages right in the top-level hg help message, and collects all of it in the manpage. that's the Right Thing to do < 1535145186 661268 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@46.191.210.223 QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds < 1535145241 347013 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even worse examples are ImageMagick and ffmpeg, but they partly do that because of a lot of pluggable parts developed partly independently (although distributed together) and not enough resources to document them properly < 1535145306 423620 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the plus side, svn has a C api that is documented and is even more stable on the long therm than the command-line, plus lots of other features I like in it. < 1535145313 861195 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: one thing I realised is that the name "scapegoat" is awkward as "sg" already exists < 1535145319 23713 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like svn (Apache Subversion is the official name) in general < 1535145328 563131 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the obvious solution is a separate executable per command, "sg-commit" or whatever < 1535145342 927767 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or just symlinks to a single executable) < 1535145343 453447 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: or you can use that as the developer codename, and give it a different official name < 1535145347 616862 :xkapastel!~user@142.93.249.241 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535145353 365339 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the sg that already exists? < 1535145354 616575 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd also have the advantage of man pages working in a really simple way < 1535145359 599274 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: like su but for groups < 1535145364 505707 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1535145366 265387 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1535145377 241198 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: as long as you have a single-level index manpage, that's fine < 1535145403 568178 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays very few people have permission setups complex enough for sg to be useful, although it is necessary in those cases where you need it < 1535145415 917313 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, if possible, ALSO make the docs available as an online webpage, which is useful for windows users, because it's hard to find a working man reader for win32 < 1535145439 467005 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aimake will generate man pages on UNIX and HTML files on Windows from the same sources < 1535145463 439994 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's fine if you have a 1-depth index for them too in both formats < 1535145536 847838 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: git in theory has its manpages online as HTML, but they messed it up, and some automatically generated parts of the manpages are missing from it. perl has made the same mistake with the perl core and cpan, but there's now a separate http://perldoc.perl.org/ webpage associated with them < 1535145543 171560 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fixes that mistake < 1535145636 912608 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, a lot of software, including perl and svn, has some docs that they claim are only for developers of the project itself and so are only distributed in the source code and not collected together with the main docs, but some of which would actually be useful for non-devs and would be easy to add to the normal set of docs < 1535145666 570112 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, that's partly unavoidable, because sometimes you want developer docs and there's a lot of unmaintained junk in it < 1535145670 589678 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux also does that < 1535145678 608676 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still, you have to be careful with it < 1535145710 990954 :cods6!~cods@175.7.166.83 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535145755 93419 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least since svn is a version control system, it's also self-hosting now, and they run a web service for reading its official version control repository, and you can see the developer docs there < 1535145856 616223 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQLite does put the developer documents that are also useful for other uses too are also made available outside of the source codes, such as the document of the SQLite file format and the document of the VDBE opcodes. < 1535145859 674475 :xkapastel!~user@142.93.249.241 JOIN :#esoteric < 1535145884 469958 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I've said this already, and I don't have an immediate need for this, but it would be nice if you put a clear declaration into your official version of ayacc that it is distributed under some free software license, just like you did with uncursed and aimake < 1535145893 495825 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file format isn't just internals, though, it's also important for interoperability < 1535145919 924069 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm not sure if the license on ayacc is decided yet? I'm trying to remember < 1535145929 922668 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no logical reason I can think of not to make it GPLv3 though < 1535145941 435810 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that, plus the file format is important to estimate some things about how much disk space and disk access and cpu certain workloads use < 1535145944 909499 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, I have a job right now (for complicated technical reasons I only work on ayacc while unemployed) < 1535145982 105544 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: last I've seen, it wasn't, but I think you have made a declaration that's somewhere in the #esoteric logs, which could sort of work in a pinch < 1535146001 532840 :cods6!~cods@175.7.166.83 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535146012 595047 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ayacc declares that all code snippets that go into the generated output are under public domain, < 1535146023 963086 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but doesn't declare a license for the rest of the code < 1535146027 280458 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's obviously necessary, unless it's implicit < 1535146034 537943 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I would have written it out of habit < 1535146056 642079 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and that declaration still helps < 1535146067 417801 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it lets me more easily distribute a program that uses vanilla ayacc < 1535146084 258336 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can distribute the ayacc output with it so people don't have to run it < 1535146109 215728 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that I have such a program yet, but still < 1535146124 180080 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for what I want to write, I could probably use bison < 1535146134 367240 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I prefer ayacc < 1535146262 824284 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bison/ayacc polyglot is fairly easy < 1535146273 735727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although ayacc has some non-bison features you might want to use < 1535146323 816285 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and ayacc generates nicer code output, and ayacc is easier to modify in certain ways that I might want to change, such as adding a new output language or language variant, or adding an extension to its syntax < 1535146328 831543 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering both < 1535146339 19908 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but only in vague plans that I might not ever do < 1535146347 305248 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the output isn't as nice as I'd like yet < 1535146352 702910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also probably slower than bison noutput < 1535146368 678222 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :candidates for language variants are rust and stackless C < 1535146403 294582 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for the extensions, I'll probably have to talk to you about what's feasable and what isn't already possible in ayacc before I try < 1535146541 797758 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sort of thinking an extension where I have a language where some production rules are such that they cause shift-reduce conflicts, and I want to be able to write a proof whose checking is assisted by ayacc that despite this, you can express "any valid parse tree" in the language with some easy automatable transformations of the input, turning i < 1535146541 925700 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :t to a subset of the language that has no shift-reduce conflicts but can still express anything. < 1535146563 700934 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Such production rules would be ones that allow eliding parenthesis and similar markers to disambiguate precedence. < 1535146597 989500 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think something like that is possible, but I don't have the details completely thought out. < 1535146664 848712 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems like an interesting goal but one that's quite different from ayacc's, so if you added it to ayacc you'd essentially just have two different programs bolted together < 1535146666 91667 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :In particular, it's easy to remove the production rules I mark and test if the remaining language has no shift-reduce conflicts, but you also need a way to annotate why you believe it can express any parse tree and check its proof, < 1535146681 183654 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although unlike bison, ayacc does have the concept of a production being a no-op, e.g. "(a)" and "a" being equivalent < 1535146682 169602 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ideally also generate a program that does the transformation on any input. < 1535146774 675248 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think it's that different from ayacc, since ayacc already must be able to verify that a language has no shift-reduce conflicts (with false positives, but here too I want to support only proofs of specific form), and it can already parse the description of a grammar to some form it can manipulate, so automatically removing some marke < 1535146774 849152 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :d productions would be easy if you extended the syntax. < 1535146788 630484 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the easy part. The hard part might still be difficult to design and implement. < 1535146826 796573 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I think what would probably be most usable for this would be that, when a conflict is automatically resolved, ayacc could determine whether there was always a way to force the conflict into the other resolution < 1535146830 715286 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It might not be ayacc's goal, but since ayacc has readable code for these tasks, it would help implementing this. < 1535146836 500159 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that'd be useful even with manually resolved conflicts, I guess < 1535146852 693680 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm thinking of various manual annotations in the grammar for this. < 1535146857 528633 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't have to be full automatic. < 1535146878 87948 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It could also have escape hatches for ambiguities that you can't prove with the annotation language, but prove manually. < 1535146970 323074 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, an annotation would be that I claim that a particular production like {expr -> expr '+' expr} can always be disambiguated by putting parenthesis around it. < 1535146993 20079 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :perhaps the report could say something like "'expr PLUS expr . TIMES': shift/reduce ambiguity resolved as SHIFT, alternative available as '( expr PLUS expr ) . TIMES'" < 1535146994 42149 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where in the annotation I tell which "parenthesis" that is. < 1535147056 939889 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: well, in very simple cases it might be possible to annotate, but I want it on grammars more trivial than just infix operators with different precedence and parenthesis, for in such simple languages, a proof by hand is also easy < 1535147069 979995 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/possible to annotate/possible to automate/ < 1535147081 291612 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I'm thinking about this idea: look for a no-op rule that can be placed on the LHS in order to make it reduce rather than shift < 1535147117 122691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing it the other way round (i.e. to make it shift rather than reduce) is harder because ayacc thinks left to right, so it doesn't have any concept of the place where the closing paren would have to go < 1535147134 774697 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I need it for cases where from the grammar it's not even obvious that a certain construct means the same as another construct, because it's not implemented by a pass-through rule, either because it's not a primitive construct but a consequence of multiple rules, or because we add debug information that shouldn't change semantics. < 1535147164 327144 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I think automation would have to rely on pass-through rules < 1535147170 413881 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because of debug information, you can write a no-op rule in a way that ayacc doesn't know is a no-op rule < 1535147172 627136 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not getting ayacc to parse and understand arbitrary semantic actions ;-) < 1535147203 957090 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other case comes up for uglier things like some C++ ambiguities, although C++ might be too ugly to produce such an annotated proof. < 1535147234 509604 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ has reduce/reduce ambiguities and other things that are hard to handle with an LR parser. < 1535147254 843102 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ syntax is terribly complicated to even parse correctly these days. < 1535147261 240268 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even compilers don't always agree on how it works < 1535147274 122462 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it a full LR parser or a LALR parser? (I don't like C++ syntax; it is too messy) < 1535147278 889073 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`olist 1137 < 1535147279 604934 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :olist 1137: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas < 1535147297 794991 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I still don't understand how a certain template syntax construct is supposed to be parsed, although I think the new versions of the standard clarify it, the standard is just too complicated. < 1535147304 98595 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: oh nice! let me look < 1535147312 596605 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Giant is on a roll > 1535147315 578660 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[0714]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57454&oldid=57448 5* 03Ais523 5* (+248) 10/* Power */ PDA without parens < 1535147358 747330 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... why don't I see the page title in the esowiki bot's change announcement < 1535147405 403281 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :esowiki isn't very good at Unicode < 1535147442 85056 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1535147442 208332 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it does not support Unicode, then use the percent encoding of the URL. < 1535147452 792618 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the URL is fine < 1535147457 930988 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the page title that is wrong < 1535147469 314425 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535147500 755475 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can make an URL to a mediawiki page without even mentioning any escaped form of its name, in at least two ways: by its unique page ID and the change ID of any version of it < 1535147512 30440 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this URL does the latter < 1535147556 501709 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is handy for pages of whose escaped title would be too long < 1535147609 419939 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1535147609 930663 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1535147650 807574 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and those two IDs are mentioned in the mediawiki dumps and the api.php output and you can refer to them in the api.php interface, so there's a high chance that they can be preserved or at least tracked to a fork or dump of a wiki < 1535147663 177401 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mediawiki does a lot of things well < 1535147689 54278 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pity it's implemented in php :-) < 1535147709 597087 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was implemented in php before php even became a sane programming language < 1535147736 111045 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno why anyone would do that, I guess they didn't know that mediawiki will be so popular and have so many plugins < 1535147798 780743 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1535147798 860112 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1535147817 195794 :LKoen_!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1535147887 399367 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would want a SQLite virtual table extension to access remote MediaWiki files. (You can then make a copy of the wiki by the use of INSERT INTO ... SELECT command.) < 1535147898 693816 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1535147898 800731 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1535147931 578177 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you could write such an extension, at least for mediawiki instances where the api.php is enabled for at least read use < 1535147941 319030 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not all mediawikis have it enabled) < 1535147958 19796 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1535147958 141120 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1535147984 53775 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you couldn't access data that's hidden by administrators, such as user passwords and deleted versions, but that's on purpose < 1535147986 443688 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would want to support incremental updates, but I don't know if the MediaWiki API supports that. < 1535148010 441303 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know of course there is no need copying user passwords (or any other user data other than user pages, since your own copy will have its own users). < 1535148023 711814 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1535148023 766157 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1535148046 152676 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: otoh I believe there are already tools for MediaWiki that allow you to copy a remote wiki, and even output it into a new MediaWiki < 1535148050 853803 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: the MediaWiki API basically just does queries against the database, but from a predefined subset of queries (those which won't cause excess database load) < 1535148066 489014 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"batch" operations are supposed to be done on downloadable database dumps < 1535148066 743767 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy JOIN :#esoteric < 1535148066 809519 :xa0!~zeta@unaffiliated/uoy QUIT :Excess Flood < 1535148075 69014 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides api.php, there's also the older [[special:export]] and [[special:import]] , but they can do somewhat less < 1535148088 967021 :ChanServ!ChanServ@services. MODE #esoteric +o :ais523 < 1535148104 371934 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 MODE #esoteric +b :xa0!*@*$##fix_your_connection < 1535148163 382507 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 MODE #esoteric -o :ais523 < 1535148175 479142 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are still widely used for moving pages between wikis < 1535148180 43052 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :say if they got created in the wrong place < 1535148186 747752 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and now some of the bigger wikimedia projects also have incremental dumps to preserve server resources (although you could already simulate them on client side with api.php); plus a so-called "tool server", which are servers that have a frequently updated decompressed copy of the projects and where they give shell access to people they < 1535148186 899150 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric : believe can perform useful tasks < 1535148206 326547 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes you only want a few files, so using API can be used too < 1535148220 446397 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, and they're also useful for simple batch downloading of some pages for analysis or conversion < 1535148243 23168 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but the api.php can do much more, and has a reasonably well documented and usable interface, at least for the read-only part < 1535148248 594914 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't yet used the write part I think < 1535148328 279715 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like how it's called "the API", since there's nothing really exclusive in it, it's just a very good coherent subset of API that exists, so I call it the "api.php interface" < 1535148349 795065 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: well it's the API because it's the official public endpoint for automated queries < 1535148350 628120 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but naming something "the API" is a fault some other projects commit too < 1535148353 885506 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what an API is < 1535148376 399445 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can be called "remote API" maybe is better < 1535148392 898893 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the dumps are also an official public endpoint for automated queries < 1535148442 264401 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact index.php and its CGI parameters are well-documented, and it puts a lot of extra info in invisible HTML stuff, so it's also an official public endpoint < 1535148447 443711 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not interactive, which I guess is part of a requirement for an API and I simply didn't realise it until writing this sentence < 1535148462 715861 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus there's the printable format which also helps and is quite official < 1535148493 731659 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: perhaps the interactive part is reasonable, it's hard to call it "application" otherwise < 1535148751 971020 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zcb1dmnmcpyztw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535149226 256989 :woddf225!~woddf2@host86-179-54-68.range86-179.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1535149403 25072 :woddf225!~woddf2@host86-179-54-68.range86-179.btcentralplus.com QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535149593 90687 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed PART :#esoteric < 1535149977 676069 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`aglist 611 < 1535149978 340515 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :aglist 611: b_jonas shachaf < 1535149993 637030 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think listing on every update is necessary, but maybe when there hasn't been one in a while. < 1535150206 309829 :int-e!~noone@int-e.eu PRIVMSG #esoteric :`grwp axiometric < 1535150207 876473 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1535150236 145399 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1535150774 487409 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite < 1535150904 217697 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't think the semantics of "continue" in the C standard is correct. < 1535150954 944428 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: It says that in "while (/* ... */) { /* ... */ continue; /* ... */ contin: ; }", "continue" is equivalent to "goto contin". < 1535150974 967019 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what do you mean by not correct? < 1535150975 59172 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But if the /* ... */ after "continue" declares a variable-length array, that's invalid. < 1535150986 302769 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, you're right. < 1535150993 97754 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean it's not what they're intending, and what everyone implements. < 1535150994 579876 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: and isn't continue also invalid then? < 1535151017 508033 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so? < 1535151029 233866 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is according to the standard. < 1535151066 473525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Never mind what I said about correctness. < 1535151091 179975 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C really doesn't like to have implicit destructors when a variable or temporary goes out of scope, and that's one of the main differences from C++, and exiting from the scope of a variable length array would require calling an implicit destructor in the implementation < 1535151133 897652 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially if expect to repeatedly enter that scope in a loop, so the variable length array has to be recreated an arbitrary number of times with different sizes < 1535151161 446486 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally at the end of a function, you can free the space for all vararg arrays as easily as you free temp stack space for ordinary variables < 1535151167 640534 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously this depends on the target arch < 1535151168 857401 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1535151208 183692 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :vararg arrays? < 1535151220 8962 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :variadic length arrays, sorry < 1535151310 628452 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, a compiled function might still need to explicitly save and restore some registers, but most cpus that C target are built around that concept and many give convenient ways to do that < 1535151328 965465 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :x86 doesn't, sadly < 1535151360 431396 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it has implementation optimizations for saving registers to the stack in some ways < 1535151382 417216 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and addressing modes to access the stack easily < 1535151387 914940 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the actual meaning most people imagine and most compilers implement for "continue" would be closer to "while (/* ... */) { { /* ... */ continue; /* ... */ } contin: ; } < 1535151388 221222 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that's still something < 1535151413 586070 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: what's the difference? < 1535151428 642994 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in C that is, not C++ < 1535151432 235029 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The extra block around the body. < 1535151437 909114 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1535151439 738924 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but what's the semantic difference < 1535151456 837563 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@96-85-206-172-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1535151464 116525 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it declares a variable-length then its lifetime is the inner block < 1535151465 715975 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :array < 1535151484 815042 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but wouldn't the lifetime end immediately after the goto anyway? < 1535151497 65068 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :goto after the declaration of a variable-length array isn't permitted. < 1535151545 752053 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there's a good reason for that, but I don't really like C VLAs in first place < 1535151585 220242 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many people don't like VLAs in C, so I think the people who insisted on adding it had to make some reasonable compromises for how much they can do < 1535151605 925903 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like it either < 1535151624 782653 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU C has zero-length arrays though, which are sometimes helpful. < 1535151671 474618 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I especially don't like stack-allocated VLAs, and only somewhat don't like VLA function parameters < 1535151709 996974 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: zero-length arrays are nice in theory, and it's good that rust supports them and other zero-length objects specially, but I don't think they're a good idea in C, < 1535151754 936036 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because allowing them causes incompatibilities in existing programs that use the nonexistance of zero-length arrays as a replacement for the newer static_assert, such as in macros < 1535151792 607670 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still use negative length arrays for that, and some other portable tricks, but old programs don't know that they have to < 1535151808 805743 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs targeting only newer compilers should use static_assert of course < 1535151815 44880 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can tell GCC to compile in the old mode if you want to though < 1535151817 211811 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but C wants to preserve compatibility hard < 1535151823 240875 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: yes, that's true, but still < 1535151829 456238 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an error that's easy to make accidentally < 1535151841 427066 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hard to detect automatically < 1535151870 416091 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not even easy to put a warning that catches it, even in a smart compiler, with it mostly coming from macros < 1535151953 424881 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lesser problem is that it also breaks some invariants that some macros might try to rely on, such as that every object has a sizeof at least 1. < 1535152030 949311 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's also why maxint_t is a bad design: it has to be fixed in an abi, and can't be increased when the language or abi adds a larger integer type, which is why even though gnu cc has 128-bit integers, maxint_t is 64-bit. < 1535152064 433718 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, technically neither contradicts the standard, since they can just claim that 128-bit integers aren't an integer type, it's just a type similar to integer types, but still < 1535152123 662389 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the C++ standard has it right, it puts an extra block around the loop body before the label. < 1535152193 546273 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a similar smaller problem with the current proposal for making void a real type in programs: it allows programs to overload the comma operator with void as an argument and a user-defined class as another argument, but existing macros or generic functions can rely on that such overloads can't exist, and using the comma operator with a void va < 1535152193 546326 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :lue (in either order) is useful in generic code. < 1535152204 171428 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is also something that you can work around in new code, but it's ugly. < 1535152227 434646 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Luckily that one could be fixed by changing the proposal slightly to forbid such overloads, but the current proposal doesn't do that. < 1535152271 618129 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: like I said, that's because there's a genuine goal difference between C and C++ about implicit destructors. C wants to forbid them, C++ wants to allow them as much as it can < 1535152296 38010 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right. < 1535152333 945239 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm still not sure what difference the inner braces make in C++ < 1535152373 212466 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least it's plausible to me that C++ may have a difference there that isn't present in C < 1535152397 31368 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :What do you mean? < 1535152440 584534 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference is that any destructors for variables declared in the inner block will run at the end of that block. < 1535152466 53883 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, that's a bad description. < 1535152469 984490 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, scope braces in C++ affect implicit destructors of variables and temporaries, and C doesn't have such implicit destructors, so maybe I'm missing some obscure case in C++ where the braces matter < 1535152476 980137 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The difference is that it doesn't goto past any variable declaration. < 1535152491 765980 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so the problem is _constructors_, not destructors < 1535152503 135673 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's both. < 1535152516 874088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The destructors get run at the end of the block, so you can't have the variables uninitialized. < 1535152532 161089 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :C also doesn't have variable constructors, other than for variadic-length arrays, and so doesn't forbid gotoing past a variable declaration, whereas C++ forbids that < 1535152559 694104 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't destructors already be ran because of the outer close braces? < 1535152568 688880 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :skipping constructors I can see < 1535152647 152421 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm confused. < 1535152724 104851 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you write "{ A a; if (p) goto exit; B b; } exit:", then when p is true, it'll run A(), B(), ~B(), ~A() < 1535152733 232655 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And when p is false, it'll run A(), ~A() < 1535152735 69142 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right? < 1535152777 477010 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you've already convinced me that it's useful to add the extra brace in C++ < 1535152783 379895 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1535152793 716088 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then the same issue exists in C with VLAs. < 1535152815 560806 :laerling!~laerling@unaffiliated/laerling QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1535152851 358777 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just still claim it's not useful in C, because it probably only makes a difference for VLAs and some nonstandard extensions, and there's a good reason to forbid continuing a loop with a VLA declared in it in C because that would need an implicit destructor in practice < 1535152900 256178 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess you're right that it's already allowed with the inner braces in C < 1535152905 828901 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so perhaps it could be allowed with continue too < 1535152910 244293 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know < 1535152930 535091 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could ask on ##C, they're friendly and good at such questions < 1535152935 249158 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on freenode that is < 1535152939 420388 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :##C is friendly? < 1535152950 202506 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to newbies < 1535152958 747205 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't always answer every question you ask < 1535152974 859610 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it usually doesn't hate people who are not newbies to IRC for asking questions about the C standard < 1535152996 41730 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I trust you know the general guidelines about asking a question on IRC < 1535153013 231753 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't like off-topic questions or newbies that don't keep common IRC ethics < 1535153030 618902 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't answer every question, but that would be hard to expect from even the best channels < 1535153070 908160 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, don't ask questions directly about differences between C++ and C in either ##C or ##C++, they don't like each other's language < 1535153096 953637 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :many of the regulars passionately hate the other language < 1535153130 308678 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it probably makes sense to ask this question above here in #esoteric < 1535153148 383819 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you could phrase it in such a way that it's only about C vlas without mentioning C++, and ask in ##C < 1535153207 921185 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :both channels also don't like questions about nonstandard extensions or libraries that aren't the standard library or system-dependent questions < 1535153231 842660 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they want to think that the standards exist in a vacuum and don't care about practical work in the language < 1535153251 685213 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are questions you can't easily ask anywhere because it's off-topic between the cracks on every good channel < 1535153296 734560 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, there are some other channels on freenode that help in some of those questions < 1535153329 304754 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some questions are still hard to find a good channel for < 1535153346 681659 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's why channels that are geeky but not very on-topic are useful < 1535153354 180127 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :##C and ##C++ aren't like that < 1535153385 408281 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric is, and so is #rubik < 1535153393 596639 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#rubik is better for vim questions than ##vim actually < 1535153408 159783 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, perhaps < 1535153411 238289 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :##vim isn't bad either < 1535153440 68007 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the flip side, some channels are so off-topic that it's hard to get answers to on-topic questions on them < 1535153472 451031 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like #esoteric? < 1535153526 551902 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, #esoteric is relatively good for getting answers about esoteric programming languages < 1535153530 43369 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to some channels < 1535153557 873631 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you tried #English ? it rarely answers questions about the English language, and keeps talking about world politics and stuff like that instead < 1535153571 192448 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, I mean ##English < 1535153606 887195 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric and #rubik are at least 80% off-topic talk, but it still handles on-topic questions well < 1535153619 52926 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@96-85-206-172-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1535153649 34716 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's a good thing, it means the channels are useful as a community, not just for answering questions about a topic < 1535153657 981311 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always like when internet forums serve such a purpose < 1535153675 85868 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and many others do, and those are the places I frequent < 1535153684 533123 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, some of those obviously < 1535153687 113823 :wob_jonas!b03f1898@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.152 PRIVMSG #esoteric :not all of those < 1535153754 713849 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1535154595 497305 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode QUIT :Quit: WeeChat 2.2 < 1535155122 701730 :imode!~imode@unaffiliated/imode JOIN :#esoteric