←2018-08-25 2018-08-26 2018-08-27→ ↑2018 ↑all
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00:17:01 <Sgeo__> shachaf, https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldrich/papers/ecoop05pmd.pdf might be interesting?
00:17:12 <Sgeo__> "Prototypes with Multiple Dispatch:
00:17:12 <Sgeo__> An Expressive and Dynamic Object Model"
00:19:17 <shachaf> I want things to be less dynamic, not more dynamic. :-(
00:27:15 <zzo38> If the type is known then it should know how to dispatch at compile time.
00:29:48 <shachaf> Yes, in both cases I mentioned it's known at compile time.
00:30:22 <shachaf> I'd like to understand what's going on there first before worrying about more dynamic things.
00:31:13 <Sgeo__> Multiple dispatch is pretty tied to dynamic dispatch as far as I understand
00:31:50 <shachaf> I probably don't understand it very well, then.
00:31:56 <shachaf> What's a good example?
00:32:20 <Sgeo__> I'm not sure, but Lisp and Clojure both support it I believe
00:32:31 <Sgeo__> *Common Lisp
00:32:43 <Sgeo__> https://clojure.org/about/runtime_polymorphism
00:33:11 <shachaf> Why couldn't that all be static?
00:34:04 <Sgeo__> The static version would just be overloading I believe
00:34:14 <shachaf> Right.
00:34:29 <Sgeo__> Maybe the clojure link isn't really a demonstration, hmm
00:34:49 <Sgeo__> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch#Common_Lisp
00:34:50 <shachaf> So should I prefer push(a, x) or a.push(x)?
00:35:04 <shachaf> They seem pretty different.
00:35:39 <Sgeo__> a.push(x) is better for single-dispatch systems, where that first argument is "special" so to speak, I would say
00:36:08 <Sgeo__> COuld make a language where they mean the same thing
00:36:51 <shachaf> I mean should I prefer single-dispatch or multiple-dispatch, I don't care about the syntax so much.
00:39:05 <Sgeo__> "In WiNGs while some programs may be running fine, you could start up a 3rd or 4th program or more and if any one of them has a major bug, it can crash the whole system."
00:39:15 <Sgeo__> Guess WiNGs doesn't have memory protection then
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03:13:49 <zzo38> Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and have the proper ordering? (And maybe a empty string represents negative infinity, although there is no positive infinity; if you don't use negative numbers then a empty string means zero)
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04:41:23 <Sgeo__> How do READ/DATA work in BASIC? I mean, READ somehow knows all DATA statements in the program and reads from them... but how?
04:42:25 <zzo38> Yes, it reads them in order (use RESTORE command to restart the data reading). Presumably it will find where the DATA statements are before reading them, I suppose.
04:42:36 <pikhq> Being BASIC, I would tend to assume the absolute simplest approach.
04:42:39 <zzo38> I don't know exactly how it is implemented.
04:42:48 <zzo38> But I know what those commands do.
04:43:15 <pikhq> i.e. likely each statement in the program gets put in a linked list or similar sequential data structure, and the READ statement just scans that.
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06:12:13 <Sgeo__> PRINT "{UP}{UP} READY OR NOT, HERE I COME"
06:12:16 <Sgeo__> I am easily amused
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06:57:15 <Sgeo__> Ooh Simons' BASIC has local variables
06:57:41 <shachaf> If you want local variables, maybe consider a language that isn't BASIC.
06:57:42 <shachaf> hth
06:59:36 <Sgeo__> Not sure if Simons' BASIC's local variables are um, reentrant? Or if it's just a single shadow/unshadow thing
07:00:48 <shachaf> Have you considered ALGOL 68 instead of BASIC?
07:00:51 <shachaf> You'd like it better.
07:02:32 <Sgeo__> There's a language called COMAL
07:02:33 <Sgeo__> "(Offsite link) This is (more or less) what happened when a Danish schoolteacher got fed up with Basic back in the early 1980s. COMAL added procedures and various structured-programming facilities. It was popular in the Commodore-64 community in Europe for a few years. This vesrsion has been heavily extended, but still conveys some of the flavor of what those 1980s micro languages were like. There is a very interesting history of the
07:02:33 <Sgeo__> language (presented as introduction to a bibliography) which puts it in context with BASIC."
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07:04:16 <Sgeo__> Can ALGOL 68 compile to or run on C64?
07:08:36 <shachaf> Why not?
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08:53:00 <fizzie> @tell zzo38 I don't think you can. No matter which value q you choose to correspond to the first non-empty byte string ("\0"?), q/2 is a smaller rational and should've been chosen instead.
08:53:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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09:37:32 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57474&oldid=57473 * A * (-34)
09:38:21 <esowiki> [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57475&oldid=57467 * A * (-19) /* Computational class */
09:39:29 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57476&oldid=57474 * A * (+20)
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10:37:50 <esowiki> [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57477&oldid=57476 * A * (-12)
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11:42:11 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and have the proper ordering? <-- i think not; there are strings with no elements between them, like "" and "\0"
11:42:11 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:45:41 <oerjan> oops, ninjaed (fizzied?)
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12:10:20 <esowiki> [[Esoteric Verilog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57478&oldid=36298 * Jabutosama * (+540) added definition for chemical
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13:11:11 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57479&oldid=56686 * GDavid * (+1310) /* Skip If Zero expansion (4 instructions) */
13:12:31 <esowiki> [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57480&oldid=57479 * GDavid * (+0) /* Skip If Zero expansion (4 instructions) */
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14:50:18 <zzo38> Ah, that is the good point
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15:45:36 <zzo38> Now I made up a SQLite extension to load read-only compressed databases.
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17:33:56 <Sgeo__> It's weird, instead of wallowing in my own nostalgia, I'm wallowing in other people's nostalgia
17:35:53 <zzo38> How is that?
17:48:40 <zzo38> Should P'' be mentioned somewhere in [[BF instruction minimalization]]? I am not sure where, though.
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17:50:40 <Sgeo__> I'm (currently and probably briefly) obsessed with the Commodore 64, even though I never had one, the closest was Weird Al making fun of it and the JavaOnTheBrain guy's interest
17:51:08 <Sgeo__> Also the Monty on the Run music was stolen by I Wanna Be The Guy
17:51:32 <zzo38> I have worked with old computers I never had any of, too
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18:05:10 <arseniiv> Sgeo__: zzo38: I slightly want to create a simple machine with graphical terminal. As it’s completely impractical by itself, I make it more feasible by thinking it would be an alien machine with alien glyphs, input mode, color representation, language etc. etc. but still I don’t want to make it enough, so it remains a rough idea and not much else
18:05:33 <arseniiv> maybe it has same reasons as this nostalgia?
18:06:07 <arseniiv> it’d be nice to wrap your head about something small and nice and OTOH sufficiently usable
18:07:20 <arseniiv> so the scope of activities is both manageable and worthy of interest by at least several people to share things with
18:08:01 <arseniiv> I think brain wants something like this, comfy and warm
18:08:26 <arseniiv> what do you think? ::
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18:10:42 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: what do you mean by graphical terminal? full frame buffer?
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19:01:51 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: yeah, a program can set pixels (or other alien elements) of the screen separately
19:06:13 <arseniiv> (I thought about hexagonal elements, or simple brickwork (header bond), this would be not to hard to use or implement)
19:18:15 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: but then you'd need a fast cpu or something
19:18:26 <wob_jonas> or maybe a special gpu to help
19:21:24 <arseniiv> I thought that if that alien system is slow it’s because it’s not advanced enough
19:23:03 <wob_jonas> or because it's not designed well
19:23:16 <wob_jonas> you can do a lot with slow speed but a good design of hardware and software
19:24:17 <arseniiv> so 30 fps or alike is reasonable enough. I tested a random-generated image buffer on 640×480 or alike in Processing³, it was giving stable 60fps. However it was with standard square pixels and no post-processing, and no VM computations
19:25:57 <arseniiv> generally, older systems emulators and other things do work acceptably, so it should be possible maybe without special GPU
19:27:00 <arseniiv> and if such a project is a bigger thing, it’s better to develop an actual OS
19:27:22 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: yes, but how do you paint on it fast enough? you'd need a special blitter gpu that can copy sections shifted by any number of pixels
19:27:38 <arseniiv> (which process I hope I’ll never be in contact with)
19:27:39 <wob_jonas> and hopefully recolor it too through a palette
19:29:45 <arseniiv> wob_jonas: yes, but how do you paint on it fast enough? you'd need a special blitter gpu that can copy sections shifted by any number of pixels => why not copying the entire buffer? And there would be two buffers, of course: one currently being drawn as fast as it’s possible, and the other being fiddled upon by a machine’s instructions
19:29:54 <arseniiv> is it too simple a scheme?
19:30:18 <arseniiv> anyway I’m not going to make that thing in near future
19:31:39 <arseniiv> and hopefully recolor it too through a palette => I thought it would be recolored by VM software, if there’s no more than ~1k palette entries, why not
19:32:08 <wob_jonas> arseniiv: you'd need too fast a cpu for that
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19:53:28 <wob_jonas> hi ais523
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20:14:01 <wob_jonas> `randquote
20:14:03 <HackEso> 1251) <fizzie> When life gives you limes, make esolangs.
20:14:13 <wob_jonas> `"
20:14:14 <HackEso> 376) <Sgeo> Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that <Sgeo> Or, at least, my toilet looks different \ 689) <olsner> the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM <olsner> before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory <fizzie> olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? <olsner> fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading
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20:33:45 <zzo38> One possibility for drawing on a display is using a display list; only the display list can draw on the picture.
20:35:00 <wob_jonas> zzo38: arseniiv said "a program can set pixels (or other alien elements) of the screen separately" for some reason
20:37:24 <zzo38> Yes, but that would allow to set individla pixels while the program is doing other stuff too
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20:38:18 <Sgeo__> How many music formats require emulating a CPU?
20:38:46 <zzo38> I don't know. NSF does, and probably others too
20:39:00 <zzo38> It is better because custom compression is possible.
20:39:29 <Sgeo__> http://www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Category:Formats_With_Programmatic_Content
20:40:10 <Sgeo__> For SID, I don't think custom compression was used a lot although it's possible. Just various music making tools made their own machine code players to play their data
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20:50:01 <zzo38> Do you like the SQLite extensions I wrote?
20:52:09 <arseniiv> zzo38: what’s a display list? Isn’t it something like double-buffering?
20:53:24 <zzo38> A display list is a separate program to define the picture to display.
20:53:30 <ais523> arseniiv: I think it's like buffering of drawing commands rather than buffereing of the drawn pixels
20:54:45 <ais523> zzo38: do you have a SQLite extension for bignums?
20:55:09 <zzo38> No I do not, but may add it later. Is that something that would be useful to you?
20:55:11 <ais523> that's something I was trying to handle fairly recently, my current plan is to store them as strings once they're out of the int range, and use a custom collation to sort them in numerical order and custom functions for arithmetic
20:55:31 <wob_jonas> ais523: why strings rather than blobs?
20:55:36 <zzo38> I did make a collation to sort strings in numerical order.
20:55:38 <wob_jonas> I guess either works
20:55:40 <wob_jonas> oh
20:55:42 <wob_jonas> collation
20:55:44 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Presumably because collations don't work with blobs
20:55:53 <wob_jonas> yes, that might be easier than a custom format for sorting
20:56:11 <wob_jonas> mind you, the custom format isn't too bad either
20:56:14 <ais523> strings sort after ints in sqlite
20:56:20 <wob_jonas> if you only want integers
20:56:34 <ais523> so as long as you're only using positive bignums, you can store smallnums as integers for efficiency
20:56:57 <ais523> even better, sqlite will convert strings to ints in a column with integer affinity iff the string is the digit pattern of some integer
20:57:09 <ais523> so you get that particular optimisation done automatically without having to code it
20:57:24 <zzo38> My "sqlext_misc" extension includes a "NUMERIC" collation, which can sort numbers in up to base 36, with an optional radix point, leading zeros, trailing zeros, leading/trailing spaces, and an optional sign positive/negative, too.
20:57:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: make sure you're not using too old sqlite versions then, to avoid the bugs
20:58:39 <ais523> zzo38: I assume it handles arbitrarily many digits?
20:59:10 <zzo38> ais523: Yes.
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21:02:04 <ais523> I wrote a collation (in Perl) that sorts longer strings first, otherwise lexicographically
21:02:12 <ais523> I think that works for positive numbers
21:02:31 <wob_jonas> that depends on how you encode them
21:02:37 <wob_jonas> to strings
21:03:08 <ais523> not really, the SQLite/Perl interface sends as Unicode (i.e. a list of codepoints, not in any specific encoding)
21:03:34 <ais523> I believe the actual bits in memory are encoded in UTF-8 but that's an implementation detail and not visible from within the program unless you use very low-level operations
21:03:35 <zzo38> Actually "sqlext_misc" has a collation like that too, called "RIGHT_BINARY" (there is also "RIGHT_NOCASE")
21:04:24 <wob_jonas> ais523: that's one sqlite/perl interface. you can send any byte string as an utf-8 string to sqlite and it will happily store it verbatim, as long as you don't try to do anything utf16-related or any unicode-dependent stuff
21:04:39 <wob_jonas> this is documented but very well hidden in the documentation
21:04:49 <wob_jonas> it always talks about "utf-8 strings" in the interface
21:05:14 <ais523> I think one of the biggest mistakes in programming was making encodings visible anywhere other than the I/O layer
21:06:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: it's not really visible in sqlite3 unless you use one of the few functions or collations that care or any of the utf-16 interfaces
21:06:44 <ais523> the utf-16 interfaces are fine, as that /is/ an I/O layer (well, an API, which is much the same thing)
21:07:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, but they make the encoding visible
21:07:23 <ais523> bleh
21:07:36 <wob_jonas> if you restrict yourself to the utf-8 interfaces, you don't even have to know that it's utf-8
21:07:41 <wob_jonas> you can just store whatever byte strings you want
21:08:00 <zzo38> In SQLite you can use CAST(? AS BLOB), in case you need the UTF-8 representation as a blob
21:08:31 <wob_jonas> or you can just get the utf-8 representation with the C interface or any SANE wrapper of it
21:08:39 <wob_jonas> not the perl DBI one, which sucks
21:09:04 <ais523> hmm, I was planning to use that wrapper
21:09:06 <ais523> why shouldn't I?
21:09:31 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes you can (as long as the database is set to UTF-8), although you shouldn't because some SQL functions assume that it is Unicode text. (Also some things won't work proper if there is embedded null characters)
21:10:56 <zzo38> So you should use the SQL TEXT type only for valid sequences of nonzero Unicode codepoints (although it does not have to represent Unicode characters).
21:11:46 <zzo38> Of course, it is also good for ASCII text (which is what I mainly use it for anyways, rather than Unicode).
21:13:48 <zzo38> I don't know what is the perl DBI one anyways
21:17:06 <ais523> zzo38: it's the Perl module DBD::SQLite, which allows SQLite to be used through the DBI interface
21:17:25 <ais523> where DBI is another Perl module that abstracts over a large range of databases, giving all the common API functoins consistent names
21:17:29 <shachaf> I can't make up my mind about function overloading.
21:18:08 <ais523> shachaf: I have the feeling that multiple dispatch should be used only as an optimisation
21:18:16 <ais523> or as a method of fulfilling an interface/role
21:18:53 <shachaf> ais523: Did you see what I wrote about methods/multiple dispatch above?
21:19:04 <ais523> how far above?
21:19:15 <ais523> I noticed you writing something about it a while back
21:19:27 <shachaf> Around 22 hours ago.
21:19:43 <ais523> probably yes but I'm not sure if I can remember the details
21:20:11 <shachaf> I was trying to figure out whether single dispatch and multiple dispatch are even similar or very different way of accomplishing the same thing.
21:20:23 <shachaf> What does it mean for it to be used only as an optimization?
21:21:36 <zzo38> Different databases have their own functions, so you cannot use the same things for all databases
21:22:32 <ais523> shachaf: like, you define multiple functions that all do the same thing, so it doesn't matter which is used for correctness purposes
21:22:37 <ais523> but some are specialised for different types
21:22:44 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08-25.html#l3d this thing
21:23:09 <ais523> zzo38: right, DBI aims to take the common functions (e.g. "run this statement", "retrieve a row of results") and give those consistent names and calling conventions between DBs
21:23:26 <ais523> it doesn't do things like translate the SQL statements themselves between SQL dialects
21:23:57 <ais523> shachaf: I believe that method calls should be namespaced independently of which class they belong to
21:24:08 <ais523> so that the same method name (given appropriate namespacing) always refers to the same operation
21:24:14 <wob_jonas> ok good night discussing it, I'd rather not get into this or I'll rant about DBI's stupidity and then I won't get to sleep before I have to work
21:24:16 <wob_jonas> g'nite all
21:24:20 <ais523> different classes may have to define it differently but it's still meant to do the same thing
21:24:29 <shachaf> That makes some sense, maybe.
21:24:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: night, you can tell me some other time when you don't have to wake up soon after :-)
21:24:44 <shachaf> Though different types mostly have different operations with different meanings.
21:24:48 <ais523> and I can put my DBI projects on hold until then
21:24:53 <zzo38> Still there are functions other than SQL statements too. Such as, SQLite has virtual tables, VFS, online backup, etc
21:25:05 <wob_jonas> meh, you or zzo38 can probably guess what I have to tell about it, or perhaps find it in the logs, I don't recall if I ranted about it yet or not
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21:25:51 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think DBI implements all those
21:27:30 <zzo38> SQLite also supports authorizer hook function, which can be used to disallow some SQL statements from an untrusted source (e.g. from remote users).
21:29:32 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57481&oldid=57046 * DMC * (+4)
21:30:03 <shachaf> ais523: I don't understand how choosing which code to run can be an optimization.
21:30:25 <esowiki> [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57482&oldid=57481 * DMC * (+1)
21:30:46 <ais523> shachaf: well some classes will be more restricted versions of the classes they inherit from, so they may be able to do more efficient versions of the same operation
21:31:16 <ais523> anyway, I should try to get some work done
21:31:17 <ais523> night everyone
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21:39:09 <shachaf> @tell ais523 I'm trying to understand all this without inheritance first, it seems complicated enough in that case.
21:39:09 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
21:46:23 <Sgeo__> How drastically can a font change a character's width? Could be cool to make a font that shows tokenized BASIC as readable text
21:46:39 <Sgeo__> e.g. expand the token for GOTO into an appearance of the letters "GOTO"
21:49:20 <zzo38> Probably depends on the font format
21:49:43 <zzo38> With .pcf I believe you can do that.
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22:28:53 <arseniiv> zzo38: A display list is a separate program to define the picture to display. => hm, I don’t follow, then, how is it faster in any way
22:29:49 <zzo38> It may run in a separate display processor that only runs the display list.
22:35:26 <arseniiv> ah. I thoought about multithreaded program, one thread displays what is in the “still” buffer, and the main thread runs VM and, through it, manipulates the other buffer’s contents and changes two of them when appropriate (some command for refreshing the screen)
22:36:02 <arseniiv> it doesn’t need to be physically feasible, as is, realizable as a sane device
22:50:07 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57483&oldid=57420 * YamTokWae * (+142) /* External Links */
22:53:11 <zzo38> I don't really know how to do. You mentioned hexagons display, and alien glyphs, input mode, color representation, language etc. But, what with instruction set?
22:56:02 <esowiki> [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57484&oldid=57483 * YamTokWae * (+4) /* Examples */
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23:27:56 <shachaf> What was that little CPU game people were playing in here?
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23:52:44 <zzo38> What does the "comm" field of /proc/$$/stat do if the filename contains parentheses or spaces?
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