2018-08-01: 00:04:34 [[Mu6]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57094 * BMO * (+4686) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=6 |paradigms=[[:Category:Functional_paradigm|functional]] |author=[https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:BMO BMO] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |typesys= |..." 00:16:20 [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57095&oldid=57094 * BMO * (+249) 00:22:06 [[User:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57096&oldid=53961 * BMO * (+57) 00:22:19 [[User:BMO]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57097&oldid=57096 * BMO * (+1) 00:24:36 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:09:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:17:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:20:54 [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57098&oldid=56486 * Challenger5 * (+148) 01:43:15 -!- Syfer has joined. 01:43:20 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 01:43:23 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 01:43:27 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 01:43:29 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 01:43:51 -!- hpt has joined. 01:48:55 -!- hpt has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:48:56 -!- Syfer has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:53:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:54:20 -!- ByronJohnson19 has joined. 01:54:49 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CREATING CHICKEN). 01:59:07 -!- ByronJohnson19 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:59:12 -!- okdas has joined. 01:59:16 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 01:59:20 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 01:59:23 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 01:59:26 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 02:00:37 -!- okdas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:01:17 -!- Humbedooh24 has joined. 02:01:21 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 02:01:24 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 02:01:28 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 02:01:31 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 02:02:38 -!- Humbedooh24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:06:08 -!- sparr15 has joined. 02:06:38 -!- sparr15 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:21:02 -!- manish13 has joined. 02:21:06 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 02:21:09 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 02:21:12 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 02:21:15 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 02:22:37 -!- manish13 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:28:25 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 02:28:46 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:34:27 -!- mentifis10 has joined. 02:34:31 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 02:34:34 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 02:34:37 -!- mentifis10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:41:36 -!- Nightmare10 has joined. 02:42:38 -!- Nightmare10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:06:44 can we plox set this channel +s for a while 03:13:55 -!- Welcome has joined. 03:13:59 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 03:14:02 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 03:14:06 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 03:14:09 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 03:14:37 -!- Welcome has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:16:14 -!- Adran15 has joined. 03:16:17 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 03:16:21 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 03:16:24 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 03:16:28 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 03:16:38 -!- Adran15 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:40:18 -!- RyanKnack6 has joined. 03:40:41 -!- RyanKnack6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:43:06 -!- webpigeon22 has joined. 03:43:10 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 03:43:13 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 03:43:16 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 03:43:20 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 03:43:50 -!- webpigeon22 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 04:10:50 -!- erkin has joined. 04:30:32 -!- heroux_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:30:32 -!- heroux has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:30:43 -!- heroux has joined. 04:30:58 -!- heroux_ has joined. 04:31:06 -!- eth212 has joined. 04:31:09 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 04:31:12 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 04:31:16 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 04:31:19 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 04:31:49 -!- eth212 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 04:32:58 -!- kl420017 has joined. 04:33:01 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 04:33:05 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 04:33:05 [[Fusion Tag]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57099&oldid=57098 * Ais523 * (-2) /* Implementations */ cat ("unimplemented" needs to be changed to "implemented" when an implementation is added) 04:33:08 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 04:33:11 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 04:33:38 -!- kl420017 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 04:34:46 [[Fusion Tag]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57100&oldid=57099 * Ais523 * (+18) /* Commands */ fix the discussion of the error condition 04:40:51 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57101&oldid=56239 * A * (+493) /* HTML / Javascript */ 04:45:42 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57102&oldid=57101 * A * (-16) Modifying to make it shorter. 04:46:36 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57103&oldid=57102 * A * (+0) T_T a mess 04:53:14 -!- fwilson has joined. 04:53:18 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 04:53:22 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 04:53:26 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 04:53:28 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 04:54:40 -!- fwilson has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:57:05 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57104&oldid=57103 * A * (+51) /* HTML / Javascript */ 05:00:34 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57105&oldid=57104 * A * (+5) /* HTML / Javascript */ 05:17:11 [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57106&oldid=54216 * Challenger5 * (+18) 05:19:26 [[Deadfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57107&oldid=57105 * Oerjan * (+1) /* HTML / Javascript */ Fix common bug 05:20:10 [[InterpretMe]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57108&oldid=53132 * Challenger5 * (+18) 05:24:45 [[Z]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57109&oldid=57106 * Challenger5 * (+23) 05:25:40 [[MiniPig]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57110&oldid=54217 * Challenger5 * (+18) 05:27:19 [[Minscode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57111&oldid=50530 * Challenger5 * (+110) 05:29:00 -!- mcintosh16 has joined. 05:29:03 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 05:29:07 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 05:29:10 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 05:29:13 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 05:30:42 -!- mcintosh16 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:31:18 [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57112&oldid=57092 * Challenger5 * (+42) 05:32:19 [[Betaload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57113&oldid=54162 * Challenger5 * (+96) 05:33:41 [[Minipy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57114&oldid=50376 * Challenger5 * (+97) 05:35:06 [[Minipy]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57115&oldid=57114 * Challenger5 * (+29) 05:35:18 [[Check]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57116&oldid=52019 * Challenger5 * (+96) 05:36:33 [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57117&oldid=54508 * Challenger5 * (+92) 05:37:01 [[Betaload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57118&oldid=57113 * Challenger5 * (+25) 05:37:43 [[CJam-Flavored Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57119&oldid=57117 * Challenger5 * (+29) 05:38:48 [[Momema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57120&oldid=54163 * Challenger5 * (+25) 05:41:40 -!- jorik1 has joined. 05:41:44 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 05:41:47 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 05:41:51 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 05:41:54 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 05:42:41 -!- jorik1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:49:54 -!- radiofree27 has joined. 05:49:58 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 05:50:02 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 05:50:05 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 05:50:08 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 05:50:41 -!- radiofree27 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:53:13 -!- alercah has quit (Quit: leaving). 05:55:36 -!- guest3546 has joined. 05:55:40 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 05:55:43 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 05:55:47 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 05:55:50 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 05:56:41 -!- guest3546 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:07:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:25:55 -!- tx29 has joined. 06:26:04 -!- tx29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:38:22 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 06:38:52 [[Momema]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57121&oldid=57120 * Challenger5 * (+2590) 06:42:56 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:44:48 -!- MDude has joined. 06:49:41 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:50:02 -!- hakatashi has joined. 06:50:27 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:51:25 -!- hakatashi has joined. 07:03:05 -!- red-00123 has joined. 07:03:09 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 07:03:12 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 07:03:16 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 07:03:20 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 07:04:42 -!- red-00123 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:05:55 sigh 07:07:26 -!- beaver6 has joined. 07:07:29 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 07:07:33 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 07:07:36 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 07:07:40 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 07:09:40 fizzie: if you're around, could you consider something like +q $~a or +r? This spam is getting a bit out of hand right now, and the spammers aren't even caught by Sigyn anymore because, either because they're staying away from the big channels now or because all those channels are blocking these messages so Sigyn can't see them (I don't know which it is). 07:13:33 -!- beaver6 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 07:17:38 -!- guntbert24 has joined. 07:17:42 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 07:17:45 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 07:17:49 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 07:17:52 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 07:18:19 -!- guntbert24 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 07:21:22 -!- janus29 has joined. 07:21:25 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 07:21:29 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 07:21:32 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 07:21:35 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 07:22:41 -!- janus29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:22:54 -!- dwC-- has joined. 07:22:54 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 07:22:54 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 07:22:54 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 07:22:58 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 07:24:42 -!- dwC-- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:24:54 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 07:25:34 FireFly: mniip: grumble: oh you have power here as well 07:26:29 (I think? Or is adding freenode-staff to the access list cosmetic?) 07:27:39 -!- Yoda6 has joined. 07:27:42 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 07:27:46 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 07:27:49 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 07:27:52 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 07:28:41 -!- Yoda6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:34:58 int-e, "freenode-staff" is cosmetic 07:35:20 sad 07:36:09 but yeah I guess it should be *!*@freenode/staff/* to be effective 07:46:28 * Taneb still ill but less so 07:47:34 -!- SakiiR17 has joined. 07:47:38 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 07:47:42 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 07:47:45 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 07:47:48 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 07:48:35 -!- SakiiR17 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 07:50:36 -!- Matrixiumn has joined. 07:50:40 -!- Matrixiumn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:03:00 -!- matze16 has joined. 08:03:00 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 08:03:00 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 08:03:00 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 08:03:04 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 08:04:40 -!- matze16 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:20:14 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:20:20 oh great, our channel is hit by those spambots freenode warned about 08:20:29 https://freenode.net/news/spambot-attack 08:21:53 This is why I should make a custom IRC client, which facilitates retroactively hiding those spam messages from the history 08:23:32 They're probably using a nice botnet of computers they easily infected with malware 08:39:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:39:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:39:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:40:16 -!- sins- has joined. 08:40:41 -!- sins- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:49:18 -!- Turska-13 has joined. 08:49:21 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 08:49:25 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 08:49:28 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 08:49:31 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 08:49:40 -!- Turska-13 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 08:57:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:00:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:06:06 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 09:19:01 -!- VM_21 has joined. 09:19:05 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 09:19:09 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 09:19:12 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 09:19:15 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 09:20:42 -!- VM_21 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:22:15 -!- tromp has joined. 09:27:19 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:27:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 09:29:37 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:29:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 09:32:14 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 09:34:12 -!- arseniiv_ has changed nick to arseniiv. 09:36:46 -!- SopaXT has changed nick to SopaXorzTaker. 09:51:53 -!- siso_ has joined. 09:51:57 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 09:52:00 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 09:52:04 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 09:52:07 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 09:52:42 -!- siso_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:26:20 -!- lebster8 has joined. 10:26:42 -!- lebster8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:41:56 -!- NvpkD1y7Ez has joined. 10:42:00 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 10:42:03 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 10:42:08 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 10:42:10 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 10:46:31 -!- erkin has joined. 10:47:14 -!- NvpkD1y7Ez has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 10:48:10 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 10:51:26 -!- kg13 has joined. 10:51:27 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:51:29 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 10:51:33 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 10:51:36 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 10:51:39 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 10:51:47 -!- kg13 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 10:54:32 -!- shenglong29 has joined. 10:54:41 -!- shenglong29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:56:44 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 11:00:59 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:03:40 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 11:06:16 -!- UncleSamuel2 has joined. 11:06:42 -!- UncleSamuel2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:07:03 -!- rud0lf16 has joined. 11:07:06 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 11:07:10 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 11:07:13 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 11:07:16 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 11:08:42 -!- rud0lf16 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:11:54 -!- kl420025 has joined. 11:11:57 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 11:12:01 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 11:12:05 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 11:12:08 A fascinating blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/ 11:12:41 -!- kl420025 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:14:38 -!- ByronJohnson4 has joined. 11:14:41 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 11:14:42 -!- ByronJohnson4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:18:52 -!- lino has joined. 11:18:52 With our IRC ad service you can reach a global audience of entrepreneurs and fentanyl addicts with extraordinary engagement rates! https://williampitcock.com/ 11:18:52 I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/ 11:18:52 Read what IRC investigative journalists have uncovered on the freenode pedophilia scandal https://encyclopediadramatica.rs/Freenodegate 11:18:54 -!- lino has quit (K-Lined). 11:26:31 Ooh, we're big enough to get spam. 11:27:59 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +r. 11:28:14 Let's maybe do that for now? 11:30:58 If you know +s would be enough to stop them from coming, LMK. 11:32:51 yeah, +r or +q $~a are the recommended ways, I think (the latter lets people join but not speak) 11:33:16 (people without nameserv registration that is) 11:34:03 fizzie: do you think we should have *!*@freenode/staff/* on the access list, maybe? 11:34:25 fizzie quieted $~a 11:34:25 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +q $~a. 11:34:36 I guess the quiet is nicer. 11:34:54 fizzie: don't forget the -r or it will make no difference 11:35:20 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o fizzie. 11:35:24 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -r. 11:35:27 -!- fizzie has set channel mode: -o fizzie. 11:35:36 cheers 11:36:12 I set it via mlock originally, but I guess just removing the mlock doesn't actually make ChanServ do anything, and I wasn't sure we want -r enforced like that. 11:37:25 -!- mon8 has joined. 11:38:14 Now we'll assume every new person joining is a spammer, though. :/ 11:38:43 -!- mon8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:39:18 yeah there's no good solution 11:39:54 (but at least that traffic shouldn't highlight the channel) 11:42:41 Added *!*@freenode/staff/* to the access list as well, with the flags +voAti per some random recommendation. 12:00:57 -!- MikeoftheEast has joined. 12:02:42 -!- MikeoftheEast has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:10:58 I think just +o would enough (or I guess +vo would be more common maybe) 12:11:25 I forget what the other ones do offhand :D 12:14:17 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:15:27 FireFly: +i may be helpful to get in (if some rogue op makes the channel invite only or password protected)... +t is probably useless; +A makes no difference for a channel with publicly visible access list. but +o should typically be enough. 12:15:36 -!- Guest42312 has joined. 12:15:58 -!- Guest42312 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 12:19:47 *nod* 12:22:07 I wish IRC added a good way to uniquely identify client connections to other client connections even while you don't see them on a channel. This could be done as an opt-in extension, of which the server already supports a few. 12:22:51 Then the freenode staff and their bots could mark connections as spam after the fact even if they quit first, or other moderators you trust could do that too, and you could have your IRC client hide their messages even after they're alredy received. 12:23:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:23:20 If I make an irc client, I'll at least hide the messages from users who were too slow and I see the K-line for spam message. 12:23:50 The quit messages are formatted specially by the server so the K-line messages or similar can't be faked by normal users. 12:26:20 -!- duoi24 has joined. 12:29:02 -!- kloeri22 has joined. 12:30:43 -!- kloeri22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:30:59 -!- duoi24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:31:01 -!- Yes_ma`am has joined. 12:33:17 -!- Algernop29 has joined. 12:34:03 -!- Yes_ma`am has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:34:41 -!- Algernop29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:35:03 -!- ksx4system2 has joined. 12:36:43 -!- ksx4system2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:41:45 -!- trnv2 has joined. 12:41:59 -!- EXCEPTS has joined. 12:42:17 -!- uplime- has joined. 12:42:20 -!- krysjonaz has joined. 12:42:40 -!- EXCEPTS has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 12:42:57 -!- krysjonaz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:46:24 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 12:46:29 -!- Vorpal_ has quit (Changing host). 12:46:29 -!- Vorpal_ has joined. 12:47:59 -!- sftp_ has joined. 12:48:11 -!- fizzie` has joined. 12:48:14 -!- fizzie` has quit (Changing host). 12:48:14 -!- fizzie` has joined. 12:48:57 -!- erkin has quit (*.net *.split). 12:48:59 -!- Vorpal has quit (*.net *.split). 12:48:59 -!- paul2520 has quit (*.net *.split). 12:48:59 -!- sftp has quit (*.net *.split). 12:49:00 -!- APic has quit (*.net *.split). 12:49:01 -!- j-bot has quit (*.net *.split). 12:49:01 -!- subleq has quit (*.net *.split). 12:49:02 -!- trn has quit (*.net *.split). 12:49:03 -!- fizzie has quit (*.net *.split). 12:49:03 -!- uplime has quit (*.net *.split). 12:49:04 -!- trnv2 has changed nick to trn. 12:49:05 -!- uplime- has changed nick to uplime. 12:49:11 -!- sftp_ has changed nick to sftp. 12:52:49 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:53:51 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 12:54:40 -!- morsik0 has joined. 12:54:43 -!- morsik0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:54:47 -!- subleq has joined. 12:55:33 -!- paul2520 has joined. 12:55:48 -!- paul2520 has quit (Changing host). 12:55:48 -!- paul2520 has joined. 12:56:57 -!- erkin has joined. 13:28:39 -!- Phex has joined. 13:28:43 -!- Phex has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:34:59 -!- Guest32399 has joined. 13:35:29 [[User:Kamish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57122&oldid=54890 * Kamish * (+0) 13:36:04 -!- Guest32399 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 13:40:11 neat quote: “If you make a comment here, it had better be either true and necessary, true and kind, or kind and necessary.” 13:43:32 arseniiv: I recognize that. That's from the policy http://slatestarcodex.com/comments/ 13:48:18 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57123&oldid=56962 * Kamish * (+557) 13:49:14 Isn't necessary sufficient? 13:50:25 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57124&oldid=57123 * Kamish * (+28) 13:50:52 -!- EvanR23 has joined. 13:50:53 -!- EvanR23 has quit (K-Lined). 13:51:07 shachaf: no, see the details in that policy I linked 13:52:30 shachaf: it's a private forum where posting is a privilage, not a right you own, so you can never claim that it's necessary for you to participate. they can just ban you if you don't keep the rules. 13:53:11 "Necessary in that it’s on topic, and not only contributes something to the discussion but contributes more to the discussion than it’s likely to take away through starting a fight." 13:53:12 Privately owned and moderated forum that is, not private for participation or reading. 13:53:25 That sounds like it has nothing to do with necessity? 13:53:38 `? necessity 13:56:59 -!- Melody\Concerto5 has joined. 13:57:08 -!- Melody\Concerto5 has quit (K-Lined). 13:59:15 -!- albel7270 has joined. 13:59:38 -!- jackmcbarn5 has joined. 14:00:02 -!- albel7270 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 14:00:19 -!- jackmcbarn5 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 14:27:55 wob_jonas: thank you 14:36:22 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:36:27 -!- Sgeo has joined. 14:53:06 [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57125&oldid=57095 * BMO * (+2388) 14:54:25 [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57126&oldid=57125 * BMO * (+33) 14:55:19 [[Mu6]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57127&oldid=57126 * BMO * (+3) 14:56:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:03:59 -!- Facilitating has joined. 15:08:17 -!- rigel4 has joined. 15:08:42 -!- rigel4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:09:05 -!- Facilitating has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:09:35 -!- Carlos061126 has joined. 15:15:21 -!- Carlos061126 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:25:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:42:18 -!- nandub has joined. 15:42:37 -!- nandub has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 15:59:31 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 16:00:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:01:21 -!- Liara- has joined. 16:02:43 -!- Liara- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:13:39 -!- lolmac has joined. 16:14:44 -!- lolmac has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:31:08 fizzie: +s is enough. it works for other channels. 16:35:38 oh never mind 16:35:54 they've started caching the channel list nowl 16:36:06 you would have to already be +s 16:40:45 -!- imode has joined. 16:51:42 -!- Guest47883 has joined. 16:52:59 -!- Guest47883 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:00:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:03:00 -!- TroniQ89 has joined. 17:03:01 -!- TroniQ89 has quit (K-Lined). 17:07:00 -!- Maven_ has joined. 17:08:03 -!- October has joined. 17:08:04 -!- Maven_ has quit (K-Lined). 17:08:44 -!- October has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:24:59 -!- L0S has joined. 17:31:07 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:31:13 -!- L0S has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:35:43 -!- majestic14 has joined. 17:35:47 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:36:24 -!- majestic14 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 17:47:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:55:55 -!- tromp has joined. 17:58:29 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 17:58:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:59:57 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:00:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:01:15 [[FlogScript]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57128&oldid=44535 * BradensEsolangs * (+26) 18:10:09 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:11:23 -!- Oats87 has joined. 18:12:03 -!- Oats87 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 18:13:41 -!- cholcombe24 has joined. 18:14:45 -!- cholcombe24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:15:04 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:18:50 -!- APic has joined. 18:37:25 -!- tromp has joined. 18:39:54 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 18:41:46 -!- SiLuman11 has joined. 18:42:46 -!- SiLuman11 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:53:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:54:18 -!- Guest45420 has joined. 18:54:18 figalli won the fields medal! 18:54:43 -!- Guest45420 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:40 [[VogLang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57129 * BradensEsolangs * (+574) Created page with "VogLang is an esolang conceived by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden/Ikura]]. The programs are Vogon poems, and the nonsense words are changed via a set of rules into a few instru..." 19:10:18 -!- hither has joined. 19:14:34 -!- OGF2 has joined. 19:14:44 -!- OGF2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:14:54 -!- hither has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:15:27 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:16:52 -!- plat_23 has joined. 19:17:30 -!- plat_23 has quit (K-Lined). 19:26:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:42:41 -!- Blendify_i5 has joined. 19:42:44 -!- Blendify_i5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:54 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 19:56:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:17:04 -!- timeless9 has joined. 20:18:40 -!- timeless9 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 20:25:20 -!- MetaNova0 has joined. 20:31:05 -!- MetaNova0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:45:56 -!- EdSaperia0 has joined. 20:46:37 -!- EdSaperia0 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 21:00:56 -!- Arokh23 has joined. 21:02:43 -!- Arokh23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:13:18 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 21:15:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 21:24:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:25:34 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:27:20 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:30:18 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:35:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:40:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:47:09 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:53:00 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:54:21 Youtube now has video ads, overlay picture ads, and these little picture ads that show up in the bottom right outside the video area, and the latter are getting terrible, 21:54:49 perhaps because everyone who actually has sense uses one of the first two possibilities, and because there's a smaller choice for Hungary. 21:55:20 They've even ran an ad for what looked very much like a take your money scam, with no obvious way to report ads. 22:00:14 -!- MDude has joined. 22:03:38 wob_jonas: You might try the left sidebar "Send feedback" option and then highlighting the ad in the attached screenshot. I've no idea where that feedback goes, though. It would be better if there was a more direct reporting link. It's a shame there's not a reporting option in the small "Why this ad?" infobox. 22:04:08 fizzie`: there used to be one, I think 22:04:11 or no 22:04:12 I mean 22:04:27 there used to be two little buttons on that ad 22:04:34 and I think the other one might have led to a reporting interface 22:04:38 but now there's only one button 22:04:46 Right. I don't remember seeing it in YouTube, but I'm sure I've seen it in some other surface. 22:04:49 there might still be a hidden option, but I think that ad no longer runs 22:04:49 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 22:06:17 There's still two buttons (the AdChoices triangle-i and an X that has a "Report this ad" button) on a regular Google ad banner on a random third-party site. 22:06:37 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:18:45 `smlist 475 22:19:03 Ah, right. 22:19:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:25:23 -!- HarryCross222 has joined. 22:27:58 -!- GigabytePro12 has joined. 22:30:57 -!- HarryCross222 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:31:46 -!- tromp has joined. 22:33:39 -!- GigabytePro12 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:36:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:48:24 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:55:08 -!- threeFifths has joined. 22:56:30 -!- threeFifths has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 23:04:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:05:34 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:07:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:09:44 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:11:16 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:12:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:13:42 -!- Warped27 has joined. 23:14:09 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:19:33 -!- Warped27 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:27:37 Factor 0.98 released 23:27:52 I haven't thought about Factor in a long time 23:37:36 -!- OvidiuS12 has joined. 23:38:46 -!- OvidiuS12 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:39:57 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:40:55 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:45:39 -!- nesthib has joined. 23:46:46 -!- nesthib has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:48:31 [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[VogLang]]": Copyright violation: content was: "VogLang is an esolang conceived by [[User:BradensEsolangs|Braden/Ikura]]. The programs are Vogon poems, and th...", and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/BradensEsolangs|BradensEsolangs]]" ([[User talk:BradensEsolangs|talk]]) 23:50:20 [[User talk:BradensEsolangs]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57130 * Ais523 * (+545) /* VogLang */ new section 2018-08-02: 00:08:37 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:08:47 -!- mynery has joined. 00:09:24 -!- myname has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:12:02 -!- olsner has joined. 00:28:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:54:10 -!- hakatashi has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:54:29 -!- hakatashi has joined. 01:03:20 -!- imode has joined. 01:09:44 -!- aykut5 has joined. 01:10:44 -!- aykut5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:48:12 -!- tromp has joined. 01:52:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:25:32 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 02:36:22 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57131&oldid=57124 * Oerjan * (-585) That's just evil formatting. Also order. 02:36:32 [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57132&oldid=57131 * Oerjan * (+583) /* Radixal!!!! */ Fix (assuming the code itself works) 02:38:08 re latest oots, i'm worried about the vampire that got away. 02:40:17 assuming she knows what to do 02:40:44 -!- moonlight8 has joined. 02:40:55 -!- tromp has joined. 02:40:58 @metar ENVA 02:40:59 ENVA 020220Z 13007KT CAVOK 12/10 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 16008KT 02:45:12 -!- MDude has joined. 02:45:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:45:22 -!- moonlight8 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 03:47:20 helloerjan. how goes it 04:20:03 -!- thunderrd1 has joined. 04:20:59 -!- thunderrd1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:26:09 -!- tromp has joined. 04:30:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:39:53 hellopia. temperatures are starting to sink down to normal 04:42:39 however, there must be heat stored in the building because the apartment goes 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joined. 11:24:54 [[Talk:ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57133&oldid=52865 * Wastl * (+775) /* DEF instruction parameter order */ new section 11:29:58 -!- variable has joined. 11:33:06 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:42:40 [[ObCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57134&oldid=57112 * Wastl * (+971) added interpreter link and proof of Turing-completeness 11:43:26 -!- TheWhiteBadger has joined. 11:43:35 -!- TheWhiteBadger has left ("Leaving"). 11:59:02 -!- erkin has joined. 12:00:50 -!- trout has joined. 12:01:21 -!- trout has quit (Client Quit). 12:04:32 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:07:00 -!- wonklet has joined. 12:09:20 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VOID * New user account 12:11:04 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 12:24:01 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dngnogu * New user account 12:25:19 -!- wonklet has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:43:08 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57135&oldid=57087 * Dngnogu * (+271) /* Introductions */ 12:44:06 [[Brain]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57136&oldid=49990 * Dngnogu * (+1) /* Implemented */ 12:45:07 -!- kloeri11 has joined. 12:47:23 -!- anzuof23 has joined. 12:48:38 -!- anzuof23 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 12:49:45 -!- kloeri11 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:58:27 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:59:50 -!- Fogity has joined. 13:03:17 -!- metax has joined. 13:06:05 -!- metax has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:16:17 -!- joast has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 13:28:00 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:29:10 -!- Caraway15 has joined. 13:29:48 -!- Caraway15 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 13:43:18 the Stylish plugin for Mozilla is great because it lets me make ugly sites more readable on a somewhat permanent basis, but its new built-in warnings are very annoying. 13:43:50 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:44:22 it warns about selectors I use being apparently overspecified. but I'm deliberately use such selectors because I'm overriding the crazy overly specific selectors and overly redundant rules of the site's CSS. 13:48:02 -!- joast has joined. 13:55:43 [[Preprocessor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57137 * A * (+2059) Created page with "==Syntax== ===Conditions=== The if-else directives if, ifdef, ifndef, else, elif and end can be used for conditional compilation. if VERBOSE >= 2 print("trace message");..." 13:56:09 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57138&oldid=57137 * A * (+5) /* Syntax */ 13:56:28 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57139&oldid=57138 * A * (+2) /* Identifiers */ 13:56:39 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57140&oldid=57139 * A * (-42) /* Identifiers */ 13:56:50 :( 13:59:00 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57141&oldid=57140 * A * (-294) 13:59:27 [[Preprocessor]] 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Got SIGIRL, dying...). 20:31:59 -!- imode has joined. 20:37:34 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:39:51 -!- tswett has joined. 20:40:57 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host). 20:40:57 -!- tswett has joined. 20:40:57 -!- tswett has quit (Changing host). 20:40:57 -!- tswett has joined. 20:41:08 Ahoy. 20:41:15 Allow me to introduce... 20:41:19 Oversized digit notation! 20:41:26 I'm all ears. 20:41:34 A number within brackets indicates a single digit whose value is that number. 20:42:05 So, for example, 1[12]6 is a three-digit number where the digit in the 100s place is 1, the digit in the 10s place is 12, and the digit in the 1s place is 6. 20:43:07 You can use this notation to represent intermediate results in arithmetic before carrying has been performed. 20:43:09 Like... 20:43:15 14 * 14 = 18[16] = 196 20:43:30 15 * 15 = 1[10][25] = 225 20:43:52 partially useful! :) 20:45:02 huh, now that is interesting. 20:45:17 (but why calling it oversized, is it more like overflown?) 20:45:28 isn’t* 20:45:41 *shrug* 20:46:15 You can nest it to make weird stuff like 1[1[10]]. 20:46:30 oh! 20:47:28 Sometimes oversized digit notation corresponds to non-standard English words... 20:47:38 19 = nineteen, 1[10] = tenteen, 1[11] = eleventeen 20:47:51 1[1[10]] = tenteenteen, of course. 20:49:35 -!- tromp has joined. 20:51:32 tswett: that's basically what an abacus does 20:53:22 depending on the version you have, only up to 14, though 20:54:28 (btw there’s a notation my friend had suggested a while ago, "" = 1, "[]" = nthprime("") = 2, "[[]]" = nthprime("[]") = 3, "[][]" = "[]" × "[]" = 4, "[[[]]]" = 5, "[][[]]" = 6 etc.) 20:56:09 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:56:36 arseniiv: hmmm, I have an idea similar to that one. 20:56:47 Same thing, except that it's the successor function instead of nthprime. 20:56:58 Concatenation is multiplication and parentheses indicate adding 1. 20:57:14 which is like oe of the basic definitions of natural numbers based on sets 20:57:17 So () is 2, (()) is 3, ()() is 4, (()()) is 5. 21:02:17 there are many representations for the same number, though: ()() = ((())). In the previous thing, there are also many representations, but the only one modulo swapping balanced bracked groups. It’s why I didn’t forget :D 21:02:43 Yup. 21:03:34 ()()()() = ()()((())) = ()((((((())))))) = ((((((((((((((())))))))))))))) 21:04:04 I love balanced bracket strings 21:04:43 there's something beautiful about them. 21:14:40 ((())( 21:17:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:17:10 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57143&oldid=57142 * A * (+68) 21:22:29 -!- MDude has joined. 21:35:09 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57144&oldid=57143 * A * (-727) 21:36:35 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57145&oldid=57144 * A * (-69) 21:36:42 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:37:36 quintopia: uh my eyes! 21:37:43 :D 21:46:59 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57146&oldid=57145 * A * (+317) 21:47:01 `? limerick 21:47:21 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57147&oldid=57146 * A * (+3) 21:55:12 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57148&oldid=57147 * A * (+522) 22:01:56 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57149&oldid=57148 * A * (+160) 22:03:01 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57150&oldid=57149 * A * (+37) /* Computational Class */ 22:06:21 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57151&oldid=56998 * A * (+33) 22:14:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:17:13 -!- boily has joined. 22:24:00 [[Recursoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57152 * A * (+1173) Created page with "'''Recursoin''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] by [[User:A]]. Variables are defined like: var = bar {| |- | valign="top" | +
- | valign="top" | do ma..." 22:26:00 [[Recursoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57153&oldid=57152 * A * (-176) 22:34:15 [[Recursoin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57154&oldid=57153 * A * (+339) 22:36:24 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:39:36 -!- moei has joined. 22:39:54 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:40:24 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57155&oldid=57012 * A * (+0) Your C example has a flaw:you should use "and". 22:43:38 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57156&oldid=57155 * A * (-32) :( I found another: it is unnecessary to print"number=". 22:47:08 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57157&oldid=57156 * A * (-18) Hmm...Just directly print "Fizz", "Buzz", or "FizzBuzz". No need to output the number. 22:53:31 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57158&oldid=57157 * A * (+22) Some small improvements:I evaluated the expression"(i%3)&&(i%5)" into "(i%15)", making it more readable. 22:57:09 I'm sure on some channel we used to have a bot that made sure there's always as many (s as there are of )s. 22:57:12 It's important, a channel might tip over if the balance isn't maintained. 22:58:47 What happens if you write ) before (? 22:59:03 Also what happened to HackEso? 22:59:28 ))))))))))))))))))))) 23:02:37 -!- tromp has joined. 23:03:13 -!- imode has joined. 23:07:29 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:16:27 -!- copumpkin has joined. 23:16:57 -!- contrapumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:39:26 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 23:41:58 -!- imode has joined. 23:46:10 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57159&oldid=56984 * A * (+27) 23:47:23 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57160&oldid=57075 * A * (+19) I don't know how to place chinese here. 23:52:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:53:02 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57161&oldid=57151 * A * (+261) 23:54:43 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57162&oldid=57161 * A * (+19) 23:55:21 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57163&oldid=57162 * A * (+0) Mistake 23:57:20 -!- tromp has joined. 2018-08-03: 00:02:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:11:14 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57164&oldid=56736 * A * (-8) My description is too complicated. 00:26:18 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:42:23 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57165&oldid=57164 * A * (+196) Include more understandable Brainfuck implementation 00:48:29 I should totally try to design my own Tcl OO system 00:48:49 Why? 00:49:12 Someone on Twitter reminded me Tcl existed, and I have it stuck in my head now 00:49:30 The model of objects where they're just strings that know what to do via {*} fascinates me 00:49:48 e.g. {*}$someObject somemethod 00:49:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:50:05 $someObject could just be a lambda that switches on the somemethod argument 00:50:26 Why not make an OO system for Ada? 00:50:39 No need to worry about garbage collection in this model, unlike other models where each object is a command, and Tcl can't just clean up commands 00:50:43 -!- imode has joined. 00:50:53 Also I'm thinking lambdas are a little bit scow for control flow. 00:51:00 In most languages, at least. 00:51:10 This is mostly unrelated to what you're saying. 00:51:37 * oerjan sics GL Steele on shachaf 00:51:38 Ruby has a special case to make things like this work: def f(a); a.each {|x| return true if x == 5 }; return false; end 00:52:13 Where that's a lambda that can return from the scope it was created in. If you return a lambda like that, it fails at runtime. 00:52:24 (You could also make it use continuations, but...) 00:52:37 Tcl control flow is string and eval based. 00:53:21 Is there anything that uses lambdas for control flow for this sort of thing? How does it work? 00:54:53 I should learn Tcl. seems the interpreters for it are pretty complicated though. 00:56:18 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57166&oldid=57165 * A * (-4) /* Examples */ 00:56:43 I suggest learning it properly via tutorials or other documentation, rather than via osmosis of real life examples. It's the sort of language where things one might not expect to make a difference can 00:57:17 how would it compare with something like forth, which is similarly untyped. 00:57:35 mainly interested in the implementation of the language. can I write a Tcl in a weekend? 00:58:10 I'm not an implement a language person. I think it would be simple to implement the syntax rules, at least. 01:00:44 iamcalledbob and A should be banned from the wiki, they've created a lot of junk articles. cmv. 01:05:55 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57167&oldid=57166 * A * (+122) /* Examples */ 01:07:31 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:08:18 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57168&oldid=57160 * Oerjan * (+0) ginorst + cdeeginnors 01:08:36 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57169&oldid=57167 * A * (-122) 01:08:47 hm esowiki isn't ... oh 01:09:25 HackEso isn't responding, though. 01:09:34 like there's literally a language called "String rewriting paradigm". 01:09:48 that qualifies as a stub. someone's trolling. 01:09:54 oh wait that's caught by my pribate +R 01:09:59 stupid stuff 01:10:03 `echo hi 01:10:11 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan. 01:10:22 It seems that the spam has stopped for now. 01:10:34 At least for a few hours. 01:10:43 mmm. 01:11:02 -!- sleepnap has left. 01:11:25 [[Looping counter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57170&oldid=57169 * A * (-5) /* Examples */ 01:13:44 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:13:45 `echo hi are you there 01:13:46 hi are you there 01:13:57 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan. 01:14:23 wob_jonas: Yes, approximately that is what a yard is. More precisely, it is three feet. 01:14:26 > "is lambdabot registered?" 01:14:27 "is lambdabot registered?" 01:14:29 yep 01:14:31 Since lambdas don't seem work very well for control constructs without hacks or continuations, how should user-defined control constructs work? 01:14:46 fizzie: it might be a good idea to register them, just in case. 01:15:06 One answer is to scrap early return etc. and make people use Either or something if they want it. Which is almost back to using (delimited) continuations. 01:15:20 Another answer is lisp-style macros, I guess. 01:15:22 To check if someone is registered with NickServ you can use the NS INFO command. 01:15:32 Are there more standard answers? 01:15:45 shachaf: i think i'm not going to open the floodgates without some information that there's a more network-wide solution. 01:15:51 OK. 01:15:57 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:16:17 has this channel been hit by the spambots as well? 01:16:21 haven't been around. 01:16:29 (The cloak I suppose also reveals being registered with NickServ, although it is possible to be registered and not cloaked.) 01:18:00 -!- MDude has joined. 01:20:27 imode: yep 01:20:42 hm fungot isn't even here to test 01:21:05 although i guess it would also be on zem.fi 01:22:38 imode: so it's now set +q $~a which also gives some of the bots problems 01:23:59 and also we all seem to have been set +R which means the bots cannot reach us in private either 01:24:23 that's good, I suppose. 01:24:33 you have to wonder what the dude's motives are... 01:24:42 psychotic, he is. 01:24:47 You can unset the +R mode on yourself if you want to receive the message, or use ACCEPT command 01:24:51 oh i wasn't thinking about the spam bots when i said "bots", but our trusty channel ones 01:25:09 ah. 01:25:13 not so good then. :P 01:26:10 so i added an exception for fizzie's domain, although he might want to register them too (i guess that adds extra hassle when logging in) 01:26:35 https://wiki.tcl.tk/10225 is the sort of thing that scares me about Tcl 01:31:32 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57171&oldid=56365 * A * (+122) /* swap x, y */ 01:33:02 -!- boily has quit (Quit: YESTERDAY CHICKEN). 01:37:40 that Preprocessor proof is so obviously wrong, sigh 01:38:11 (he also misunderstood my proof that he's trying to base it on, although i guess the comment about 8 fixes that.) 01:41:20 ok maybe that's sane if e can actually mutate variables, but then it's not much of a CPP derivative... 01:43:09 -!- tromp has joined. 01:43:40 -!- mahaa has joined. 01:44:40 the way in which mediawiki's diffs can completely fail to match identical parts because of slight spacing differences is really annoying. 01:44:54 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57172&oldid=57171 * A * (+28) /* x = not x (bitwise) */ 01:44:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:44:57 (looking at ObCode) 01:45:25 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57173&oldid=57172 * A * (+41) /* x = not x (bitwise) */ 01:46:12 [[ObCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57174&oldid=57134 * Oerjan * (-1) rm newline that breaks the stupid diff 01:46:54 ah better 01:47:49 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:50:01 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57175&oldid=57173 * A * (+1) /* x = not x (bitwise) */ 01:50:45 [[ObCode]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57176&oldid=57174 * Oerjan * (+12) wikify sections 01:51:22 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57177&oldid=57175 * A * (+65) /* x = not x (bitwise) */ 01:52:12 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57178&oldid=57177 * A * (+5) /* Wrapping */ 01:52:52 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57179&oldid=57178 * A * (-3) /* swap x, y */ 01:53:28 imo reban zem.fi hth 01:55:03 well in obvious hindsight... 01:57:21 hm why are there esowiki announcements in the logs... 01:57:32 perhaps it's actually supposed to be registered. 01:57:47 or maybe it doesn't get quieted unless it rejoins... 02:00:36 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57180&oldid=57179 * A * (+90) /* x = not x (boolean, logical) */ 02:03:05 -!- imode has joined. 02:08:45 hm this is weird. there's a message from esowiki in the logs from several minutes after i joined that i haven't seen. 02:09:09 oh wait 02:09:16 it's also the logging bot isn't it? 02:09:28 oh man 02:09:29 so it's been faking it :P 02:09:30 pranked 02:11:18 indeed, the logs have my own edit that got me wondering what was up 02:11:34 CASE CLOSED 02:11:48 A good affair, Bravo! 02:12:06 * oerjan bows 02:15:48 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57181&oldid=57180 * A * (+30) /* x = x - y */ 02:16:49 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57182&oldid=57181 * A * (-30) /* Non-wrapping */ 02:17:17 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57183&oldid=57182 * A * (+29) /* Wrapping */ 02:17:44 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57184&oldid=57183 * A * (-19) /* x = x + y */ 02:21:03 -!- tromp has joined. 02:25:37 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:59:47 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57185&oldid=57184 * A * (+77) /* Input a decimal number */ 03:10:03 Go and C++17 support initializers for if, as in "if (int x = f(); x > 0) { ... }". Is there any language that supports initializers for while, as in "while (int c = getchar(); c != EOF) { ... }"? 03:11:17 surely you can do that with c macros 03:12:15 Well, yes. 03:12:40 I mean, y'know, sort of. With all the usual caveats about C macros. 03:13:45 -!- tromp has joined. 03:13:48 I don't know. I mean, you can get the same effect with for loops, but... 03:14:03 Can you, without writing "getchar()" twice? 03:14:26 Well, no. 03:18:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:23:41 proc lambda {arguments body args} { 03:23:41 return [list ::apply [list $arguments $body] {*}$args] 03:23:41 } 03:23:54 https://github.com/tcltk/tcllib/blob/master/modules/lambda/lambda.tcl 03:28:15 Oh, right, I forgot about Tcl. 03:28:29 Tcl is, uh, decidedly odd. 03:29:19 Though I can't remember, doesn't while in Tcl execute the condition in the calling stack frame? 03:29:51 i.e. basically like it did an uplevel expr $cond 03:30:55 uplevel 1 I think 03:31:23 I think I remember you talking about liking Tcl? I liked it for a while until I found myself incapable of writing programs that don't memory leak. 03:31:32 Mutable locations don't get garbage collected. 03:31:52 (Since every mutable thing has to have a name) 03:31:56 Just because I like Tcl doesn't mean I can't admit it's decidedly odd. 03:32:03 In fact, its oddness is part of why I like it. :) 03:33:48 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57186&oldid=57185 * A * (+108) /* Summing 1~n */ 03:53:43 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57187&oldid=57158 * A * (+161) Add Python implementation 03:57:40 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57188&oldid=57187 * A * (+1) Shorten My Code 04:00:52 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57189&oldid=57188 * A * (-2) /* Examples */ 04:06:30 -!- tromp has joined. 04:10:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:53:36 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 05:06:03 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 05:51:40 -!- tromp has joined. 05:56:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:57:54 -!- Anon_ has joined. 05:58:10 -!- Anon_ has quit (Client Quit). 06:04:55 -!- Guest29789 has joined. 06:10:27 -!- Guest29789 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:12:31 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57190&oldid=57150 * A * (-8) Well, since there is no changing, it is turing-complete. 06:15:37 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57191&oldid=57190 * A * (+28) Only 2 commands, it is a Turing-tarpit. 06:20:24 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:21:54 -!- tromp has joined. 06:25:35 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:26:23 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:26:38 -!- tromp has joined. 06:27:44 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57192&oldid=57191 * A * (-1) Uh, operation is wrong 06:27:56 -!- bleepy8 has joined. 06:28:35 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57193&oldid=57192 * A * (+45) 06:31:42 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57194&oldid=57193 * A * (-7) 06:33:23 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57195&oldid=57194 * A * (-6) 06:33:34 -!- bleepy8 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:38:03 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57196&oldid=57195 * A * (+7) 06:40:51 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57197&oldid=57196 * A * (-94) 06:49:23 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57198&oldid=57197 * A * (-26) 06:58:23 [[FizzBuzz]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57199&oldid=57189 * Zzo38 * (+155) TeX 07:00:06 [[Post-preprocessor]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57200 * A * (+1964) Copy my text first... 07:03:29 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 07:07:17 -!- Frogging10112 has joined. 07:08:34 -!- Frogging10112 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:12:27 -!- brandonson has joined. 07:30:12 -!- Anon has joined. 07:30:29 -!- Anon has quit (Client Quit). 07:32:36 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57201&oldid=57200 * A * (-1964) Blanked the page 07:33:23 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57202&oldid=57198 * A * (-144) Examples are useless 07:34:02 -!- avelardi20 has joined. 07:34:08 -!- linuxmodder24 has joined. 07:34:53 -!- linuxmodder24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:35:41 -!- avelardi20 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:37:50 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57203&oldid=57202 * A * (+22) Else can be represented by if 07:46:45 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57204&oldid=57201 * A * (+1842) 07:51:02 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:54:14 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57205&oldid=57204 * A * (-125) 07:54:33 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57206&oldid=57205 * A * (+9) 07:56:59 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57207&oldid=57206 * A * (-2) 07:57:27 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57208&oldid=57163 * A * (+26) 07:59:16 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57209&oldid=57207 * A * (+9) /* Syntax */ 07:59:29 -!- brandonson has joined. 08:02:57 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57210&oldid=57209 * A * (-19) 08:12:22 -!- programmerq6 has joined. 08:12:30 -!- programmerq6 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 08:27:23 -!- basic`27 has joined. 08:28:57 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57211&oldid=57210 * A * (+75) 08:29:02 -!- basic`27 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:29:30 @tell oerjan Good point, I didn't even consider them bots. 08:29:30 Consider it noted. 08:36:49 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 08:39:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:39:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:39:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:42:04 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57212&oldid=57211 * A * (+1107) 08:46:01 [[Post-preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57213&oldid=57212 * A * (-600) 08:46:47 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57214&oldid=57203 * A * (-85) 08:48:04 [[Preprocessor]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57215&oldid=57214 * A * (+0) 08:48:28 Can I say that I prefer quality over quantity when it comes to esolangs? 09:10:03 int-e: you can 09:26:52 Huh, what's happened to fungot? 09:26:59 Oh, right, I restarted the machine. 09:29:06 I have a bouncer in front it now, so when it joins, it's not going to actually be responsive yet. Just thought I'd warn you. 09:29:25 -!- fungot has joined. 09:30:41 fungot: Feeling all normal again? 09:30:42 fizzie: and we can multiply quantum states with numbers.) 09:30:55 Subsystems nominal, I guess. 09:31:23 fungot: what kinds of numbers twh 09:31:24 shachaf: like international paper sizes?' thread. one of his friends to build an entire scheme program and a scheme list is kind of weird. even though that " should" visit espoo today, since i don't notice any fault with the gui 09:35:10 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:50:25 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:56:32 -!- SopaXT has joined. 09:59:18 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:00:33 Later it turns out the secret to solving noise issues in quantum computing was multiplying quantum states with international paper sizes. 10:02:45 -!- SopaXT has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:07:46 If you could get an A3-sized qubit I think a lot of things would work differently 10:15:14 -!- mahaa has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:15:29 hey they finally found an elementary knightship in the game of life 10:18:05 I know what some of those words mean! That sounds neat 10:18:22 (what's a knightship? what does it mean for one to be elementary?) 10:20:13 knightship = travels along a vector other than (1,0) and (1,1) (modulo rotation/reflection ofc.) 10:21:00 elementary = not a giant million cell machine engineered to build a copy of itself along a certain vector then take itself apart 10:21:50 it's predictably very weird looking http://www.conwaylife.com/wiki/Sir_Robin 10:22:24 [[Obcode]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57216 * Wastl * (+20) make redirect to ObCode 10:28:43 [[Functoin]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57217 * A * (+695) Created page with "It is inspired by [[Post-preprocessor]]. ==Syntax(= command)== f(x)=1/x`function` f(a)=`Put your code here`,f() (a!=0) `nothing here` (a==0)`if statement` a=0`variabl..." 10:29:27 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57218&oldid=57208 * A * (+14) 10:33:25 That *is* neat 11:05:53 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:19:19 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:20:08 `paste wisdom/limerick 12:20:09 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/file/tip/wisdom/limerick 12:21:07 `learn The password of the month is alphanumer1c. 12:21:09 Relearned 'password': The password of the month is alphanumer1c. 12:24:45 `' ꙮ 12:24:46 1133) A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric." 12:24:56 So that's where it is. 12:25:17 `wc -l quotes 12:25:17 wc: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try 'wc --help' for more information. 12:25:21 `` wc -l quotes 12:25:22 1325 quotes 12:25:34 `` tail -2 quotes 12:25:35 ​ Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. \ i'm sending this from within a computer on minecraft 12:37:05 int-e: https://zem.fi/tmp/quotes.png 12:38:03 Source: hg log -T "{rev} {node|short}\n" quotes | tac | while read rev hash; do printf "%s\t%s\n" $rev $(hg cat -r $rev quotes | wc -l); done | tee ~/tmp/quotes.csv 12:39:14 A time axis might be nice as well. 12:41:44 ...huh, I didn't actually use the commit hash, and didn't notice because -r accepted the revision number as well. 12:42:34 -!- opung28 has joined. 12:44:18 -!- opung28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:50:37 By date: https://zem.fi/tmp/quotes2.png 13:01:35 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:03:43 Well I still think that the limit should be 1336. :P 13:08:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 13:30:24 -!- Monkeh7 has joined. 13:31:22 -!- Monkeh7 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 13:40:41 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:32:18 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:34:30 -!- mahaaaham has joined. 14:34:46 -!- lambdabot has joined. 15:02:06 -!- mahaaaham has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:04:31 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:11:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:20:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 15:33:53 -!- SopaXT has joined. 15:35:54 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:48:50 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:09:54 -!- imode has joined. 16:18:16 -!- tromp has joined. 16:21:57 `olist 1132 16:21:58 olist 1132: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 16:22:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:49:56 *slaps roof of HackEgo* this bad boy can fit so much olist in it 16:55:03 -!- tromp has joined. 16:55:06 `? olist 16:55:08 olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html 16:55:21 Does HackEgo have a roof? 17:07:56 I sure hope so; computers get even more irritable in the rain than most people. 17:08:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:24:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:30:38 -!- tromp has joined. 17:51:21 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:57:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:57:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:59:36 -!- tromp has joined. 18:00:27 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:02:02 -!- SopaXT has joined. 18:08:36 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:09:09 -!- erkin has joined. 18:11:26 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:29:58 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:44:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:54:10 -!- tromp has joined. 18:58:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:32:45 -!- tromp has joined. 19:37:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:37:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:55:27 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:57:39 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:28:51 -!- tromp has joined. 20:48:21 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:48:29 I made this computer game recently: http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/MEGAPANE.ZIP 20:52:13 Do you like this? 20:57:23 -!- tromp has joined. 21:01:05 hmm it's not entirely terrible :P 21:07:32 What's that real number though? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/mp.png 21:09:12 The ratio of score to rows. 21:10:39 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:11:49 ah 21:13:41 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 21:31:43 zzo38: I can't figure out how to make dosbox work well with my high-DPI screen. 21:31:47 So the font is too small. 21:34:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:50:24 shachaf: I have something like this in my .dosbox/dosbox-0.74.conf: http://paste.debian.net/1036624/ (those are the settings that I modified) 21:52:46 Oh, I tried similar settings before but not quite those ones. 21:53:02 (this may still be rather small for you but you can adjust the window size accordingly; keeping it 4:3 and multiples of 640x480 are probably a good idea) 21:53:57 It's a sufficient size. 21:54:54 Is there a language similar to C or C++ that has every function taking one argument, which might be a struct/tuple containing multiple values? 21:57:06 I don't know of any. 21:59:03 I'm wondering how to make it work with various things, like named arguments and varargs (and default arguments?). 21:59:44 Of course you can have a calling convention that turns this into the regular C ABI. 22:01:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:15:35 -!- tromp has joined. 22:34:21 -!- XorSwap has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:35:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:37:13 -!- nope__ has joined. 22:38:00 -!- nope__ has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 22:38:17 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:51:59 -!- tromp has joined. 22:56:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:19:15 -!- Dworf has joined. 23:19:28 -!- Dworf has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 23:24:00 -!- HackMaster20 has joined. 23:25:18 -!- HackMaster20 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 23:38:28 -!- Guest16322 has joined. 23:39:21 -!- Guest16322 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:47:38 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb). 23:50:19 -!- lambdabot has joined. 2018-08-04: 00:16:55 -!- tromp has joined. 00:22:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:47:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:52:07 @messages-told 00:52:07 fizzie said 16h 22m 37s ago: Good point, I didn't even consider them bots. 00:53:56 `doag quotes 00:53:57 11585:2018-07-21 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580:2018-07-01 addquote Please look at the new [[BackTurn]] program language see if it is good or else what other comment/question/complaint. \ 11551:2018-05-08 addquote Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old shachaf, not at all I would never suggest that i 00:54:36 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:58:40 -!- sjums has joined. 01:00:10 -!- sjums has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:04:52 -!- imode has joined. 01:13:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:17:48 the last panel of the last oots isn't entirely reassuring. 01:32:14 oh thank god, there was a preference setting to hide the left navigation bar on PPCG again 01:33:23 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 01:35:15 -!- sparklefarkle has joined. 01:36:27 -!- sparklefarkle has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:02:23 -!- tromp has joined. 02:07:34 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 02:46:38 -!- pixdamix has joined. 02:46:55 -!- pixdamix has quit (K-Lined). 02:59:12 -!- variable has joined. 03:20:52 -!- variable has quit (Quit: /dev/null is full). 03:21:44 -!- variable has joined. 03:47:22 -!- tromp has joined. 03:52:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:54:43 -!- trout has joined. 03:57:26 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:25:43 -!- variable has joined. 04:28:57 -!- ForexTrader has joined. 04:29:23 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:30:33 -!- ForexTrader has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:57:22 -!- trout has joined. 05:00:53 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 05:03:09 If you want to make a total of floating numbers without losing precision must you put them in order, or accumulate them by log2 or whatever? (You might also have to consider the positive and negative numbers separately?) 05:28:56 -!- variable has joined. 05:32:26 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:44:11 -!- Vorpal_ has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 06:00:23 -!- trout has joined. 06:03:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:23:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:24:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:31:38 -!- variable has joined. 06:34:42 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:41:57 -!- tromp has joined. 06:58:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:02:45 -!- trout has joined. 07:06:04 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:34:12 -!- variable has joined. 07:37:53 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:39:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:50:05 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:05:51 -!- trout has joined. 08:05:52 -!- erkin has joined. 08:09:23 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 08:18:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:31:24 -!- tromp has joined. 08:37:21 -!- variable has joined. 08:40:56 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 09:01:10 `learn Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi! 09:01:12 Learned 'hodl': Hodl ym bere, I'ev gto thsi! 09:09:06 -!- trout has joined. 09:12:42 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:41:10 -!- variable has joined. 09:44:38 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:11:44 -!- trout has joined. 10:12:53 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:14:58 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:43:50 -!- variable has joined. 10:46:57 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:15:24 -!- trout has joined. 11:18:14 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:27:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:46:09 -!- variable has joined. 11:46:57 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:48:04 Phantom_Hoover: wow. that is something. (re Sir Robin in game of life) 11:49:14 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 11:52:44 -!- ululate9 has joined. 11:53:32 -!- ululate9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:07:20 [[RANDo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57219&oldid=54869 * Kamish * (+54) 12:10:51 -!- codex2064 has joined. 12:11:11 -!- codex2064 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:17:51 -!- trout has joined. 12:20:43 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:22:26 -!- MillerBoss1 has joined. 12:23:37 -!- MillerBoss1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:29:38 -!- rej5 has joined. 12:30:19 -!- rej5 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:35:45 -!- Turner92 has joined. 12:41:05 -!- Turner92 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:48:46 -!- variable has joined. 12:52:29 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 13:15:35 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:19:09 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 13:20:42 -!- trout has joined. 13:23:12 [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57220&oldid=53097 * B jonas * (+147) clarify that this is not an esoteric language 13:23:41 [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57221&oldid=30898 * B jonas * (+410) credit Conway with Turing-completeness; add like ten categories; link LifeWiki 13:24:02 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:38:03 [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57222&oldid=57221 * B jonas * (+187) mention still active research 13:44:39 -!- Lean1 has joined. 13:44:51 -!- Lean1 has left. 13:47:09 [[Talk:RAM0]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57223 * B jonas * (+612) a mistaken statement 13:52:02 -!- variable has joined. 13:55:32 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:05:40 [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57224&oldid=57222 * B jonas * (+1346) explicit definition; program size 14:12:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:17:44 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 14:18:27 [[Game of Life]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57225&oldid=57224 * B jonas * (-4) consistent spelling of neighbor and behavior 14:21:12 [[Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57226 * B jonas * (+1478) Created page with "'''Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton''' is a [[Cellular automaton]] published in 1966. The state of the automaton is a square grid filling the whole plane, in which..." 14:24:03 -!- trout has joined. 14:24:08 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:26:51 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:28:07 [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57227&oldid=45557 * B jonas * (+482) history 14:29:18 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57228&oldid=57168 * B jonas * (+48) 14:34:51 [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57229&oldid=57227 * B jonas * (+454) /* Relation to esoteric programming */ clarify that every CA is an esolang 14:37:05 [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57230&oldid=57229 * B jonas * (+2) /* Relation to esoteric programming */ 14:39:47 [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57231&oldid=49933 * B jonas * (+406) add cellular automata 14:48:06 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 14:50:09 I was wondering what the oldest esolang with still active research is. Game of Life is definitely old and has a large active research community, and dc might qualify and might just predate it. But then I realized that lambda calculus, or lambda calculus with some specific evaluation order, probably trumps anything else. 14:51:52 Them and Turing-machines. They were both first published in 1936. 14:55:13 -!- variable has joined. 14:57:25 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 14:58:42 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:16:35 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 15:31:31 [[Rosa Parks]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57232&oldid=57091 * Plokmijnuhby * (+327) 15:35:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:42:26 [[Rosa Parks]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57233&oldid=57232 * Plokmijnuhby * (+1) 15:43:52 -!- imode has joined. 15:46:01 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 15:47:55 -!- rosseaux26 has joined. 15:49:25 -!- rosseaux26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:05:52 -!- missnomer2 has joined. 16:06:05 -!- missnomer2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:13:27 2HI have implemented a SQLite extension to download files from the internet by using libcurl, but it involves a rather klugy way to detect if sqlite3_interrupt() has been called. 16:19:08 -!- TriangleSausage has joined. 16:20:42 -!- TriangleSausage has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:24:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:24:22 -!- duckgoose15 has joined. 16:30:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:30:21 -!- duckgoose15 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:31:15 -!- Nick` has joined. 16:37:21 -!- Nick` has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:37:35 -!- Ckat16 has joined. 16:37:56 -!- Ckat16 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 16:47:07 -!- Ryuzaki has joined. 16:53:48 -!- Ryuzaki has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 16:57:07 -!- dh1284 has joined. 16:57:58 -!- dh1284 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 17:14:13 -!- borsin15 has joined. 17:14:41 -!- borsin15 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 17:21:10 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Excess Flood). 17:21:34 -!- Lord_of_- has joined. 17:27:11 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 17:28:24 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:28:25 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:28:25 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:30:22 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 17:35:39 -!- Quokka25 has joined. 17:36:15 -!- Quokka25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:37:50 -!- catfuneral has joined. 17:38:26 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 17:38:56 -!- Lord_of_- has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:40:22 -!- paul2520 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:43:36 -!- paul2520 has joined. 17:43:36 -!- catfuneral has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:43:39 -!- paul2520 has quit (Changing host). 17:43:39 -!- paul2520 has joined. 17:47:55 I think someone ask about SQLite extension to use Swiss Ephemeris (to see the example code), and I have posted it now (although some features are not currently implemented, including sunrise/sunset times, and some other stuff) 17:51:57 -!- MikeSpears15 has joined. 17:53:13 -!- MikeSpears15 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 18:04:54 -!- evil has joined. 18:06:04 -!- evil has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:37:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:43:52 -!- EdSaperia20 has joined. 18:49:35 -!- EdSaperia20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:09:30 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:12:47 You've all heard the tale of Scheherazade, in which an evil sultan vows that every evening he would marry a beautiful maiden and every morning he would get that maiden executed? 19:13:28 Apparently in at least some variants, the sultan actually vowed that every evening he'd marry the *most* beautiful maiden of his empire. 19:14:37 But in reality, wouldn't that cause one of those unending arms races, when eventually every remaining maiden tries to deliberately make themselves more and more ugly, to avoid this fate? 19:17:10 I mean, maybe it would, and the sultan was stupid to make such a vow no matter what and the simplest solution would have been to get him assasinated as soon as possible after people find that he is willing to follow through his vow, but still, I haven't heard of that arms race part in any retelling of the story. 19:24:48 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:25:08 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:39:29 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 19:55:25 What if his opinion who is most beautiful may differ somewhat from one of those maiden? Or if it is about equal and is difficult to know? 19:55:58 zzo38: I don't know. 19:56:01 I wasn't there. 19:56:48 they should just ask the mirror from Snow White. 19:57:03 wob_jonas, what if it was an environment with commonplace arranged marriages and the status gained from having a daughter marry the sultan is worth the high chance of her execution 19:57:25 I imagine that if beauty is subjective and its measure used by the oath is not easy to predict, that would just speed up the arms race because every maiden will want to make herself so obviously ugly that by no matter what measure she isn't among the top ten thousand most beautiful ones. 19:57:31 Taneb: worth to whome though... 19:57:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:57:39 *whom 19:57:51 int-e, the people arranging the marriage (probably the poor girl's father) 19:58:28 Right, but the maidens themselves would probably find a way to become ugly without the permission of their fater. The surviving girls at least, soon. 19:58:38 Taneb: So unfair. Almost like real life. 20:18:33 -!- foxcookie has joined. 20:19:17 -!- foxcookie has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:34:09 -!- KobrAs29 has joined. 20:34:50 -!- KobrAs29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:41:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:45:27 -!- benoliver99916 has joined. 20:45:45 -!- benoliver99916 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 20:49:13 @messages? 20:49:13 Sorry, no messages today. 20:51:00 ais523: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:RAM0 20:51:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:51:26 -!- tromp has joined. 20:52:00 oh, yes, I was kind-of assuming you couldn't put an oracle there 20:52:20 (also there's not much point linking me to talk pages of my own languages, I'm likely to notice anything put there anyway) 20:52:35 yes, that's why I put it there 20:52:50 but since you asked lambdabot for @messages, I corrected him when he said no messages today 20:52:56 what I meant was that the language is still TC if it's initialised randomly 20:53:21 [[RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57234&oldid=54505 * Ais523 * (+16) /* Data storage */ clarify ambiguous sentence 20:53:52 [[Talk:RAM0]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57235&oldid=57223 * Ais523 * (+247) clarified 20:53:55 what? then it has a randomness source... hmm wait, that doesn't increase the power of R. right. 20:54:19 although it's not obvious what "initialize randomly" means in a machine with bigints in each cell 20:54:43 wob_jonas: it's not a source of randomness if you can make no assumptions about the memory... it might be initialized. 20:55:19 wob_jonas: oh wait. sorry, what ais523 wrote here and on the page are different things 20:55:42 yes, I wrote it a bit more clearly on the page 20:56:10 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:56:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 20:56:15 yeah, the page looks fine to me 20:57:59 ok, it is fixed 20:59:37 @tell tswett re your oversized digit notation, have you seen hyperbinary? it's basically binary except you're allowed to use 2 as a digit as well, and is mostly relevant as a method of defining the stern-brocot sequence 20:59:37 Consider it noted. 21:02:38 @tell Phantom_Hoover I think "elementary" in cellular automata means that it isn't a collection of smaller components; there were already known Game of Life knightships that didn't rely on universal constructors, e.g. the half-baked knightship, which relied on multiple knightship-ish components that sent beams of generalised-gliders out to stabilise each other 21:02:39 Consider it noted. 21:04:21 That exclamation by Phantom_Hoover made me make some improvements to the Game of Life article on our wiki, although of course it still doesn't contain much of the vast knowledge mathematicians now have of Game of Life. 21:04:49 Or more like, inspired me to make some improvements, seeing that such a popular esolang has such a bad article. 21:05:06 there's an entire wiki for the game of life 21:05:15 -!- jrg28 has joined. 21:05:15 so there's not much point duplicating it here 21:05:24 yes, I linked it. two wikis at least, I think. 21:05:45 ais523, isn't that what i said when taneb asked 21:05:52 It was still worth to increase the article from stub length, and may still be worth to grow it a bit, just because it's such an important language. 21:05:55 (ive already forgotten tbqh) 21:06:06 elementary = not a giant million cell machine engineered to build a copy of itself along a certain vector then take itself apart 21:06:12 There are entire books on the Lambda calculus too, but it deserves a good article on our wiki still. 21:06:57 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:07:05 And the Sir Robin article that PH linked to has the word "elementary" linked to a page where that concept is clearly described, and it is what ais says it means. 21:07:23 tbqh the game of life isn't that interesting from an esolang perspective because a very small subset of what's known about it suffices for TCness 21:08:21 i think the 'microscale' engineering needed to e.g. build a replicator is the real meat of it 21:08:50 Phantom_Hoover: I don't see how this speaks against it being an esolang 21:08:55 ais523: then I was wondering if Game of Life, born in 1970, was the *oldest* esolang with still active research. I looked at dc, since people still occasionally write new obfus in it, which sort of counts as "active research", but I can't determine for sure whether dc is older or newer than Game of Life. 21:09:11 hmm. or perhaps you just find the fiddling boring 21:09:14 I think the game of life is interesting because instead of an explicit list of commands, it provides a number of components which feel a bit like they're randomly generated 21:09:32 most of which are useless, some of which happen to have functionality that can be pieced together into a TC language 21:09:51 ais523: Then I decided that the question is stupid, because both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are so fucking old they probably trump everything, both having been published in 1936. 21:10:15 what about the analytical engine's language? 21:10:17 And both lambda calculus and Turing-machines are still languages that people research. 21:10:35 -!- jrg28 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:10:39 yeah I almost wrote earlier that neither lambda calculus not Turing machines are esolangs. 21:10:42 also, basic untyped lambda calculus is unlikely to have much research left, people mostly just make derivatives of it 21:11:01 ais523: yeah, I guess that's true 21:11:55 int-e: I think they are esolangs, only without a fixed syntax, but that doesn't make them less of esolangs. the execution model is complete enough. 21:12:15 Hmm, perhaps. You prove subject reduction, so the Church-Rosser proof carries over to whatever typed system you really study. 21:12:24 if we accept languages with no fixed definition of how they do IO or even deliver a yes-no result and they never halt, then why wouldn't we allow no fixed syntax? 21:12:48 wob_jonas: I'm trying to say that they're not esoteric enough. 21:12:56 plus, ais523 has submitted some articles of his new esolangs that have no fixed syntax, and do you want to go against ais523's claim that those are esolangs? 21:13:03 int-e: oh! 21:13:05 sorry 21:13:27 Well, the ambiguity isn't your fault. :) 21:13:43 I think they're esoteric in the sense that they're Turing-tarpits, being Turing-complete but its full ruleset being very small 21:13:45 And I can hardly blame you for not reading my mind. 21:14:08 And few people use them for actual practical programming 21:14:56 and not because it's unpopular, but because they're not very suitable, because just like most other tarpits, they're not rich enough 21:15:25 And I would probably say that Turing machines are more esoteric than the lambda calculus, because the latter is an actual viable target language for functional programming. 21:16:06 int-e, i didn't say it didn't have a place on the esolang wiki just that the most interesting stuff about it involves more than computation 21:16:10 also true 21:16:12 (so clearly we disagree on the richness of lambda calculus) 21:16:51 oh, I certainly agree that Turing-machines are more esoteric 21:17:02 like i haven't actually researched the history involved but it seems to me that the lambda calculus is clearly the richer, more useful computational system; but turing machines were of more scientific interest because they're very clearly physically realisable 21:18:30 PH: I think they were of more scientific interest exactly because they're esoteric. they have a strange execution time so asking how fast you can compute something on a Turing-machine is nontrivial and different from the execution time on normal machines; 21:18:56 what's a 'normal' machine, in 1930-whatever? 21:20:01 finding the smallest universal Turing-machine or the largest number a small Turing-machine can compute gets nontrivial quickly (although there are similarly simple golf questions about finding the smallest universal combinator or something) 21:20:02 i've often wondered why turing is the Big Name in the field of early formal computation when church was slightly earlier, he proved essentially the same thing and his formalism has gone on to be vastly more influential in modern computing 21:20:56 PH: so you're saying that we have to measure the esotericness of a language compared to its age, and there's not many other languages in their age to compare to? 21:21:11 what? this isn't about 'esotericness' 21:23:12 but anyway, especially early on when 'what will physical computers be able to do' was presumably an important new question, the fact that turing's formal machine could clearly be mapped to the operation of an (idealised) physical computer would have made results like universality far more important than they were for the lambda calculus 21:23:21 I mean, that's true, but there's still, I guess, arithmetic notations, which existed back then and could count as very limited programming languages, 21:23:26 looking at the Z3... "Data memory: 64 words with a length of 22 bits" "Program memory: Punched celluloid tape" 21:23:43 and in particular in 1980 Hilbert considered the set of Diophantine equations, which you could consider an early esolang actually, so there are other languages to compare 21:24:00 heck, Diophantine equations might be the earliest esolang that still have active research 21:24:55 -!- imode has joined. 21:26:23 PH: yes, but didn't people seriously start to consider building physical computers later than lambda-calculus was published, unless the legends about Babbage are true (they sound as exaggerated as the Da Vinci ones)? 21:27:33 i don't know that much about the actual history! i think they were seriously considering it well before they actually built any 21:28:05 like i've always kind of assumed turing had physical realisation in mind when he came up with the turing machine because, well, why else would you come up with anything so painfully awkward 21:28:22 PH: but how much before? only two decades, or five decades? 21:28:28 hmm wait 21:29:36 Phantom_Hoover: maybe the point was to have something that could obviously be built in principle (modulo the infinite tape length) :) 21:29:41 it seems like some of those legends about Babbage are true, because he built a pretty good mechanical calculator, perhaps better than any before. 21:29:53 int-e, precisely 21:30:04 mechanical computers were in wide use prior to LC. 21:30:18 mechanical calculating hardware was in wide use prior to LC. 21:30:19 Phantom_Hoover: how does one build a random access memory, really? I mean, imagine you didn't know how it was done... 21:30:31 yeah 21:30:41 hell the earliest programmable hardware was looms. 21:31:45 imode: that's true, I have a photo of one in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wien-khm-kunstkammer-calculator.jpg 21:31:53 noice. 21:31:57 beautiful hardware. 21:32:44 and that one is clearly a decorative one, probably not much used in reality, but was probably also working (for some value of working), so at that point mechanical calculators must have been "cheap" enough that you would consider giving one as a useless gift to a king 21:33:11 although the description said something about how it was used by court astronomers or something 21:33:13 definitely. just look at the history of cash registers. 21:33:17 so maybe it wasn't purely decorative 21:34:05 maybe it was somewhat practical, but also beautifully decorative, like many other items in that exhibition, including utensils and grooming tools 21:34:20 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WLANL_-_jpa2003_-_Jaquardweefgetouw_03.jpg looks impressive 21:34:26 though some of them did look so richly decorated that I can hardly imagine they're practical to use 21:35:02 hell, mechanical computers were used to calculate ballistic trajectories in the navies around the world well up through the early 1900's. 21:35:19 and the Antikythera mechanism is claimed to be the oldest mechanical computer we know of, and it's from the *antiquities*, and it's one specialized for astronomical calculations 21:35:35 so I guess you're right 21:36:05 I just plopped into this discussion, what's it about? 21:36:07 perhaps there were actually languages of that age to compare to, even if I know close to nil about them 21:36:43 imode: I started by asking if Game of Life is the oldest esolang with still active research in it, then wondered if Turing-machines fit the bill, 21:36:49 ahhh. 21:36:59 oh yeah turing machines fit the bill lol. 21:37:05 imode: then it followed up by a discussion of whether Turing-machines are an esoteric language, and how you even define esoteric language, 21:37:07 persistent TMs are even more obscure. 21:37:51 and then about old physically built computers 21:38:10 -!- BackUP25 has joined. 21:38:52 -!- BackUP25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:39:13 I actually wonder if an abacus counts. 21:39:19 My favourite item from that exhibition, though, is a purely decorative one: a statuette https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Gefesselter_Prometheus_(Hagenauer) of which I didn't manage to make good enough quality photos 21:39:19 (hehe.) 21:40:29 because there were big difficulties making photos in a dark room with ugly uneven directional lighting and lots of reflective glass cabinets with all four doors open arranged through a large room and other visitors and no tripods allowed and 21:41:13 me having only a compact camera that isn't really ideal for that sort of challenge, even though I definitely really like that camera and think it was really worth its price and have served me well so far. 21:41:36 imode: counts for what? 21:41:46 as the "oldest computer". 21:42:42 imode: an abacus counts, adds, and with some care, multiplies as well 21:42:43 :P 21:43:22 int-e: but didn't the babylonian scribes also add and multiply on clay tablets too? 21:43:23 int-e: ayyyy there's the pun. :P 21:44:15 wob_jonas: we're quickly approaching snakes and log tables, I see. 21:44:17 perhaps such a scribe or group of scribes could count as a computer, and programmable too if their liege orders them to do a specific calculation 21:44:46 (beware of adders, they are venomous) 21:45:03 and yeah, some people make the case that the universe is a giant computer, and it's clearly older than anything invented by humans 21:45:19 i think you basically need to discount anything that relies on the human mind as a computer 21:45:21 int-e: yeah, I heard that pun already 21:45:23 yeah. 21:45:41 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer 21:46:03 the fickleness of linguistic drift strikes again 21:46:04 PH: relies in what sense? all computers built so far rely on the human mind to repair and work for more than a few decades continuously 21:46:19 s/repair and/repair so that they/ 21:46:33 to actually perform its computation 21:46:47 i refuse to believe you can be confused on what i mean by this except for the sake of pedantry 21:46:56 there have been plans for computers that last for longer, but I don't think any have been built yet 21:48:31 not that I'm not impressed by how well some computers launched in space manage to work for decades under physically very limiting conditions, mind you 21:51:53 That the Voyager 1 has had a working computer and able to contact us still ever since 1977 is definitely one of the crowning jewels of human-built technology so far. 21:51:55 Well, we *can* build computer hardware to last, and be fault-tolerant and redundant, especially when it doesn't need to be fast. 21:52:29 int-e: theoretically yes, but I don't think anyone put together the money for it yet 21:52:32 what's the longest-lasting computer we can build? 21:53:14 wob_jonas: I thought it was sufficiently distant that its bandwidth had dropped below the rate required to accomplish anything useful with the communications? 21:53:20 wob_jonas: I'm hard pressed to think of a market for it, beyond space crafts (and some other hardware that is hard to access. industrial, perhaps. or things we put inside undersea cables.). 21:53:39 also, some of the computers from the early days of transistors may still be working 21:53:41 imode: there is some research on that. some people proposed ones that would work for ten thousand years unrepaired or something and is earthbound, and is just a clock (barely counts as a computer), but it's probably unrealistic. 21:53:56 thermionic valves are really unreliable, and when people started replacing them by transistors it took a while for them to revise the computer designs 21:53:56 yeah a clock wouldn't count imho. 21:54:05 wob_jonas: anyway, putting some random keywords together: https://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/print/volume-28/issue-6/technology-focus/radiation-hardened-space-electronics-enter-the-multi-core-era.html 21:54:10 turing completeness is what matters. 21:54:20 smallest, longest-lasting turing complete piece of hardware. 21:54:22 we don't have any Turing complete computers though 21:54:34 yeah yeah mr. pedant. 21:54:44 that makes it quite hard to define a computer in real life 21:54:54 I guess some sort of informal "usable for programming" is what we care about 21:55:16 construct me the longest-lasting linear bounded automaton you have. 21:55:46 wob_jonas: oh and a nice closing sentence: 'Aircraft flying at altitude, at about 30,000 feet and above, also are starting to experience radiation-induced effects. "There are 500 times more neutrons at 30,000 feet than there are on the ground," points out Aitech's Romaniuk.' 21:55:48 hmm, a physically realisable LBA would require some sort of rewritable physical medium to supply the input 21:55:58 (near closing, if you want to be technical) 21:56:00 ais523: it doesn't look like that, if I read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_1 correctly 21:56:11 I wouldn't rely on any electronic or MEMs shit. 21:56:28 I guess we're also going to talk size. 21:56:35 ais523: it's the two Pioneer probes, both of which were launched prior to the two Voyagers, that can no longer communicate with us 21:56:43 wob_jonas: ah right, apparently we can still tell it to steer and get back information telling us it's changed course 21:57:28 that wouldn't need a lot of bandwidth 21:57:37 isn't voyager 2 the furthest 21:58:03 int-e: yes, there's no market for computers that work for a long time, because nobody cares for such long term investments financially, which is probably why none have been built in practice 21:58:40 especially because computer technology improves all the time, and so a computer is likely to become obsolete fairly quickly 21:58:46 oh, it's not 21:59:10 I wouldn't even care about the speed or size of it, I just want the most durable and longest-lasting piece of hardware, in whatever form it may take. 21:59:13 although a working computer from, say, the year 2000 would still be useful nowadays, even though it's much less powerful than modern computers are 21:59:25 you may be able to make a fluidic TM out of some of the hardest material on the planet. 21:59:32 imode: I can imagine that some microcontrollers would be very durable 21:59:53 ais523: I wouldn't rely on anything electrical or explicitly mechanical. wear and tear. 22:00:04 fluidics sound like a good option. 22:00:11 applications like computerised sensors might legitimately want to work for a long time 22:00:39 10,000 years in space? 22:00:40 imode: I've been thinking of a physical implementation of The Waterfall Model using actual flowing water, but it'd likely accumulate tolerance errors over time unless you had some sort of quantisation involved 22:00:44 ais523: right, and part of that is because better radio wave receivers and transmitters have been built than were possible when it (Voyager 10) was launched, although people probably anticipated back than that such will be built 22:01:07 ais523: I'm thinking of fluidic logic gates in an enclosed block of some kind of material. 22:01:12 we don't care about getting output from it. 22:01:20 imode: fluid scour would be a huge issue with something like that 22:01:25 yeah. 22:01:48 I think electrical or optical computation would be the right way to go, having no moving parts is likely to increase durability considerably 22:02:10 with electrical computation, you'd want to use some really simple, hardwearing components like BJTs 22:02:57 I dunno, I don't think any of it would last. thermals, etc. 22:03:39 further, I believe Voyager 10 has a *programmable* computer because when it was launched, its creators anticipated that future research on Earth would let them decide how to change its program for the better, and communication bandwidth limits wouldn't allow the program to just be executed on Earth 22:03:40 I just looked it up, as long as the current stays low enough the only known failure mode of BJTs within their normal operating envelope is due to ionizing radiation 22:03:56 hm. 22:04:12 s/Voyager 10/Voyager 1/ 22:04:28 I still think it should be something more passively mechanical like fluidics. either using gasses or actual fluids. 22:06:42 imode: some science writer whose name eludes me did propose that a Turing-complete computer that lives forever may be physically built, but only with capabilities of civilizations much more advanced than ours 22:07:18 its purpose would be to run a mind, so that they thus gain immortality 22:07:57 asimov's the last question? 22:09:12 imode: no 22:09:30 imode: it actually details the physics part 22:09:41 oh. 22:09:53 and was intended as non-fiction, although "futurology" bounds on fiction 22:10:16 it's a pretty famous short book 22:10:33 If you play GURPS, what TL number would you have such thing of that? 22:10:46 nothing like that's coming to mind immediately... 22:10:52 I guess the Voyager 10 might count as one of the oldest computers that is still used for practical purposes today 22:10:58 but I could be wrong here 22:13:32 As for fluidic computers, there was a supposed one exhibited in the Technisches Museum Wien that I've seen in 2006, 22:14:21 namely it was a machine made of glass and water and air but with the glass never moving, powered by a water pump and its inputs controlled by some modern computer, 22:15:36 fluid scour is a major source of mechanical damage to things, though 22:15:42 presumably it would be less bad with a gas than a liquid 22:16:04 that they claimed was a four-bit adder, and with a display of the inputs and outputs in binary also made of those same components with the bits drawn in water (the water was dyed for better visibility), 22:16:06 yes i don't see why you'd expect fluidics to be particularly long-lasting 22:16:38 i mean how would overbuilt silicon microchips compare? ais523? 22:17:07 the controlling computer had an input terminal where you would input two arbitrary four-bit numbers, and the input display did seem to work correctly, 22:17:38 Phantom_Hoover: there are a few failure modes for silicon chips, some of which are to do with temperature, others of which are to do with buildup of electrons or holes in the wrong place 22:18:04 and some of which are mechanical and even weird, e.g. fusible link PROMs sometimes suffer from the copper in them growing crystals and linking up to other bit of copper 22:18:15 however, the controlling computer also forced to reset the inputs to all zeros after like ten seconds of feeding your input and forced to keep it at all zeros for some time, and during those approx ten seconds, 22:18:26 ah, like tin whiskers? 22:18:44 yuh 22:18:50 for a significant ratio of inputs I tried the state of the adder didn't stabilize (the gates didn't propagate fast enough or something), 22:19:24 so I actually suspect that they never managed to debug the water computer, and just exhibited the buggy one with a workaround that makes the bug plausibly deniable 22:19:41 or at least, makes them plausibly claim that it had worked at some point 22:20:11 Phantom_Hoover: right 22:20:50 hmm, I wonder if it's possible to build a magnetic computer 22:20:57 it didn't seem like it had some theoretical design bug, the mechanism seemed like it could work in theory, but I think the glassware was difficult and slow to repair, and so they just couldn't get it right in enough tries and had to exhibit it to get a government grant or something. 22:20:59 but it's unclear what the power supply would be and if any sorts of gate exist 22:21:32 I think besides the glass it also had a non-moving metal frame to support the weight of the glass. 22:21:39 I can look up, I have a photo. 22:22:26 How many times have I told this story of the supposed fluidic computer on this channel yet? 22:22:38 imma go with 5. 22:22:54 ais523: what would a magnetic computer mean? 22:23:32 wob_jonas: something that used magnetism to send data rather than electricity 22:24:10 yep, a metal frame and also some sort of plastic valve-thingies, but the water was the only moving part, supposedly, unless they also cheated on that 22:24:27 I think the valve thingies were for maintenance and tuning 22:25:10 and it was in 2007, not 2006 22:25:53 I find it hard to see how you could do logic with only water as moving parts 22:26:27 well, nobody understands fluid mechanics so it must be possible 22:27:24 fluidic logic gates! 22:30:04 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:30:42 ais523: the water had to be flowing continuously, bits represented by either water flowing fast or barely any water flowing and the tube filled with mostly air, the trick was some syphons: 22:31:25 the gate had a part where if water entered on both inputs, then the water would be continuously syphoned out from a container through a higher overflow output pipe, and barely any exited the lower output pipe, but if water came only on one input, then the syphon would never start. 22:31:54 I imagine the difficulty is that the water pressure has to be regulated very well, and that's hard to keep through multiple depths of gates. 22:31:55 oh, that's clever 22:32:43 And this is also why it's so plausibly deniable: it is possible that the mechanism was designed to only give correct output if it was actually "flushed" to all zero inputs on every gate between any two inputs. 22:33:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:33:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 22:33:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:33:12 So the electronic reset needn't have been arbitrary, it might have been a necessary requirement to use the computer, enforced to visitors. 22:33:14 you can probably write a TC language with that restriction, though 22:34:09 But because of the instability of the mechanism, I can't really be sure that this is the case. It just makes the plausible cover story so much more believable. 22:34:48 I think it must have been a private grant, not a government grant. You don't need such a good cover story for a government grant. 22:34:53 -!- shikhin_ has left. 22:35:08 A grant from a private company that is. 22:36:14 Either that, or a machine built by a single eso-computer builder glassblower who donated it to the museum when he gave up on making it work. 22:37:11 hmm, is it possible to build an amplifier with this sort of logic? 22:37:28 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics#Amplifiers 22:37:29 something which converts a slow flow to a fast flow but a zero flow to a zero flow 22:37:39 ais523: probably yes 22:37:49 or so I'd guess 22:38:20 normally, if you have an amplifier, you can make arbitrary circuits, without one you can't 22:38:25 at least if you had a reliable flow rate on inputs and power. 22:38:49 looks like fluid amplifiers exist. 22:39:15 it looks like the logic relies on deflection, i.e. you can point a stream of water at another stream of water and it pushes it into a different location 22:39:40 yeah, kind of like a billiard ball model. 22:39:58 only with many many more particles. :P 22:40:05 ais523: the adder is a non-monotonous circuit, so it needs non-monotonous gates. aren't those practically required to contain an amplifier, in the sense that a transistor used as a unit gate in modern digital computers is an amplifier and has a power input? 22:40:40 ais523: yes, it can't be exactly what I said, because that would only make an xor gate 22:40:54 but perhaps it has an or gate as well as those 22:40:55 y'all should look at the article lol. 22:40:59 I did 22:41:49 ais523: I can show the photos if you want to reverse engineer, but they're bad quality so hard to use for that 22:41:52 wob_jonas: I don't think a half-adder (and thus a full-adder) actually needs amplification; the truth table is 00→00, 01→01, 10→01, 11→10, and in each case the output has no more 1s than the input 22:42:33 ais523: hmm, that's true 22:42:42 -!- shikhin has joined. 22:43:06 it is honestly kind of crazy how much stuff in the game of life comes down to the r pentomino 22:43:13 and the mechanism looks like each gate is very simple physically, and seems to have only two inputs and two outputs 22:43:23 no wait 22:43:27 they have two inputs and three outputs 22:43:37 Phantom_Hoover: you can think of it as a game of life version of an amplifier: small (easily constructed) input, really big and complex output 22:43:53 or two outputs? I can't see 22:44:12 yeah 22:44:26 I think it's only two outputs, but hard to tell from my photo 22:44:26 there aren't many useful components with two inputs and three outputs; if it does have that structure it's probably a demultiplexer, which is the only reasonable component I can think of that works like that 22:44:49 additionally, a demultiplexer can be made into a half-adder via an OR on outputs 1 and 3 22:45:00 (which would just involve connecting them together, fluidically) 22:45:09 conway has said that he should've invented b36/s23 instead b/c it has the nice easy replicator 22:45:14 ais523: no, if there are three outputs, then the extra output must be drainage of extra water 22:45:42 ais523: the machine is visibly built of seven gates, clearly arranged in the configuration you'd need for a four-bit adder 22:45:48 but the r pentomino dies out almost instantly in that, so it would never have supported all the immense variety of r-pentomino/herschel based technology that's used in life 22:45:57 wob_jonas: hmm, so the "fluid demultiplexer"'s truth table would be 00→000, 01→001, 10→100, 11→020 22:46:15 presumably there's some component that reshapes a 2 into a 1 22:46:59 hmm wait 22:47:26 if the water flows only down, then it's actually the wrong configuration for a full adder. it has two gates next to each other on the top, but one in the bottom. wtf. 22:48:25 the reversible counter machine I'm working on effectively has flows made out of different numbers, and 1→2 amplifiers / 2→1 deamplifiers are basic components 22:48:43 although it also allows 0s to move around with meaningful semantics 22:48:51 and both input pipes from the two top level gates seem to be connected to the second level gates 22:50:16 ais523: is that a TC-proof you're making over some already published reversible counter machine, or a new esolang? because that doesn't sound like a "counter machine" 22:50:52 wob_jonas: it's a new esolang that's intended to be high-level enough to TC-prove it but low-level enough to implement in lower-level esolangs 22:51:11 although it looks like the left hand side gates differ slightly from the right hand side gates 22:51:19 it's a counter machine in the sense that there's a direct representation of its state in finitely many counters 22:51:59 ais523: is the representation with "flows made out of different numbers" a different one? 22:52:20 not really, the numbers effectively just move from one counter to another 22:52:43 (which in a lower-level counter machine would involve a copy loop, but in the high-level representation it's conceptually a single step) 22:52:56 but... are there a bounded number of counters for the whole life of the supposed universal program 22:53:00 yes 22:53:13 oh, I see 22:53:41 you mean some numbers close to zero are special, just like in many counter machines, and that's where you're using 1->2 amplifiers? 22:55:07 or is that not what the 1->2 amplifier means? 22:55:13 nah, the way it works is that you have a graph which is effectively a graph of control flow, and an instruction pointer which is on a particular graph node 22:55:33 data and control flow move in opposite directions; the instruction pointer moves around by swapping with data in adjacent graph nodes 22:55:51 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 22:56:09 and a 1→2 amplifier would produce 2s behind where the control flow entered, but expect 1s ahead of where the control flow exited 22:56:29 it's quite hard to get your head around the data and control flowing in opposite directions, incidentally, it keeps confusing me when I work on the language 22:57:15 and is 1 input and 2 output the only possible state of that amplifier, or is there another valid input? 22:57:52 I assumed it would take 0 input and 0 output, because that's what I thought "amplifier" means 22:58:00 but at this point I'm no longer sure because this is a crazy esolang 22:58:50 "data and control flowing in opposite directions" => isn't that also how any circular queue esolang works by the way? 22:59:05 I guess it can be easier if there's only one circular queue, not a more complex graph 23:48:31 -!- xkapastel has joined. 2018-08-05: 00:05:07 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 00:19:48 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57236&oldid=57008 * Galaxtone * (+21) Fixed small errors with "a" and "an" and modified description of the String Concatenate statement. 00:21:01 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57237&oldid=57236 * Galaxtone * (-8) Redudent doubling of greater 00:21:37 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57238&oldid=57237 * Galaxtone * (+8) Undoing previous commit, mis-click of enter key. >:( 00:23:18 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 00:26:47 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57239&oldid=57238 * Galaxtone * (-9) Removed redundant doubling of greater than and less than operations symbols. 00:29:11 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57240&oldid=57239 * Galaxtone * (+0) *cough* Woops, My finger hit the enter key, I guess the syntax for String Put has changed. 00:30:16 -!- Galaxtone has joined. 00:31:13 -!- Galaxtone has quit (Client Quit). 00:31:30 -!- MikeSpears28 has joined. 00:33:18 -!- Galaxtone has joined. 00:33:41 -!- Galaxtone has quit (Client Quit). 00:34:05 -!- Galaxtone has joined. 00:34:22 -!- CoJaBo28 has joined. 00:35:11 -!- CoJaBo28 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 00:37:21 -!- MikeSpears28 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:49:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:52:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:02:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 01:26:36 -!- infina14 has joined. 01:28:05 -!- infina14 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:52:39 -!- Death91620 has joined. 01:53:28 -!- Death91620 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:13:31 -!- Tourist8 has joined. 02:15:11 -!- Tourist8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:19:27 -!- barlas7 has joined. 02:20:25 -!- swoolley2 has joined. 02:21:00 -!- barlas7 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 02:25:05 -!- swoolley2 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:44:41 -!- siniStar has joined. 02:49:12 -!- Guest42469 has joined. 02:50:39 -!- siniStar has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:54:36 -!- TheoM has joined. 02:54:43 -!- Guest42469 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:55:02 -!- TheoM has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 03:07:24 @metar ENVA 03:07:24 ENVA 050250Z 15003KT 7000 RA FEW002 SCT018 BKN062 12/11 Q1012 RESHRA RMK WIND 670FT 21008KT 03:07:37 @metar KOAK 03:07:37 KOAK 050253Z 27011KT 10SM CLR 17/12 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP127 T01720122 55003 03:07:43 @metar KJFK 03:07:43 KJFK 050251Z 28009KT 10SM FEW065 FEW250 28/22 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP189 T02780222 51008 03:07:56 i was in nyc last week and the weather was scow 03:08:05 so hot and humid 03:08:12 the dogs now howl 03:08:23 -!- Jan\19 has joined. 03:09:00 indeed, i'm glad it's no longer hot here, although somehow the inside of my apartment hasn't cooled down. 03:09:13 -!- Jan\19 has quit (K-Lined). 03:09:29 i suspect it is not time to remove the +q yet. 03:10:36 * oerjan has the big door to whatchamacallit open 03:10:54 outside? 03:11:06 well not wuite 03:11:08 *q 03:11:14 is this the real world i keep hearing about twh 03:11:30 it's a room outside of my apartment, but still somewhat enclosed. 03:11:54 a mushroom? 03:12:13 i tried looking up the correct word in english, guessing it was veranda or something, but none of the options on wikipedia seemed to fit. 03:13:03 because it's _not_ protuding from the wall. 03:16:17 perhaps screened porch is closest. 03:16:33 although my apartment is on the second floor... 03:16:46 (one-based) 03:24:22 hm i'm forgetting to eat the food i already put on the table :P 03:24:48 `? oerjan 03:24:49 Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 03:25:02 Maybe we should put eating in that, for your convenience. 03:34:25 -!- plat_15 has joined. 03:35:07 sounds good 03:37:51 -!- plat_15 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:44:55 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:10:57 -!- pierte11 has joined. 04:12:04 -!- pierte11 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:16:23 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 04:22:15 -!- ninsei has joined. 04:27:05 -!- ninsei has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:30:08 Sgeo: will there be an olist on monday twh 04:30:52 shachaf, give me a bit to figure that out. I'll get back to you on Tuesday. 04:31:47 ok 04:31:53 please make sure the cat does not get hurt twh 04:39:59 -!- Some_Person22 has joined. 04:46:05 -!- Some_Person22 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:48:53 -!- adamg has joined. 04:51:55 -!- adamg has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:52:34 -!- fossxplorer22 has joined. 04:54:01 -!- fossxplorer22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:54:42 -!- Aleszandro has joined. 04:55:49 -!- Aleszandro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:21:17 libcurl has a CURLOPT_DEFAULT_PROTOCOL option, although it does not have the option to treat a URL without the scheme as relative to a specified URL or to the current directory. 05:24:52 -!- OGF21 has joined. 05:25:16 -!- Tourist21 has joined. 05:25:33 -!- OGF21 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 05:27:02 -!- Tourist21 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:45:27 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:53:22 -!- rogue has joined. 05:54:03 -!- rogue has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 06:02:54 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:03:37 -!- noonehere4u25 has joined. 06:03:55 -!- noonehere4u25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:04:58 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:21:33 . o O ( probably not a lovable rogue ) 06:27:04 -!- sjums has joined. 06:32:27 -!- sjums has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:48:36 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 07:05:04 -!- anderson6 has joined. 07:08:48 -!- Kinny4 has joined. 07:10:01 -!- Kinny4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:11:08 -!- anderson6 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:16:37 -!- impomatic has joined. 07:16:56 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: sprocklem). 07:17:34 -!- sprocklem has joined. 07:19:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:28:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:34:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:04:21 -!- imode has joined. 08:05:27 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 08:14:02 -!- arahael18 has joined. 08:15:05 -!- arahael18 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:40:09 -!- meine has joined. 08:41:07 -!- fsamareanu22 has joined. 08:41:40 -!- meine has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 08:42:46 -!- fsamareanu22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:42:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:59:18 Maybe we should put eating in that, for your convenience. <-- so s/toe-obsessed/toe-gnawing/ ? 09:02:41 i'd watch out with making gratuitous nonsensical edits to that wisdom entry hth 09:06:06 I think it would hardly stand out. 09:06:17 But perhaps I missed the implicit irony tag. 09:06:43 `? shachaf 09:06:44 Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. 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20:34:39 No, I didn't see that. 20:34:48 I didn't see that either 20:34:54 ok 20:35:11 Clearly people in this channel just like using unconventional units 20:35:17 So 1µs is ~300m 20:35:35 I presume the conversion here is the speed of lite 20:35:37 *light 20:35:40 Right. 20:35:45 (I think phonetically...) 20:36:09 -!- Guest51933 has joined. 20:36:30 You also need the gravitational constant to convert mass. 20:36:41 look, my electric bill is measured in kilowatt hours, the speed limits are in kilometers per hour, the particle physicists measure energy in electron volts (which I think is actually -1 times what you get if you multiply an electron with a volt), 20:37:01 -!- Guest51933 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 20:37:10 whoa, G is only known to four significant digits? 20:37:45 the astronomers cosmologists use like five different units of measure for distances alone, my digital blood pressure meter and my doctor gives my blood pressure in millimeters of mercury, and let's not even talk about the chemists, 20:38:20 and when I fly on a plane the height is given in either meters or feet, so don't tell me that we're using metric in Europe. 20:38:23 We aren't. 20:38:26 a least it's not inches of mercury hth 20:38:44 I am trying, but there's only so much I can do. 20:39:08 The metric system is scow anyway. Everyone should use natural units. 20:40:00 I am giving lengths in meters when my co-workers want to variously use micrometers, millimeters, centimeters, or meters, depending on what they measure. 20:42:40 I'm watching the great videos of the youtubing woodworker Matthias Wandel, who randomly uses meters, centimeters, decimeters, millimeters, thousands of inches, inches, sixteenths of inches, and feet for lengths of parts of the objects he builds, and he's Canadian, where they're supposedly using metric too. 20:44:42 Is using seconds for mass meaningful? 20:45:10 Using metres for mass indicates the Schwarzschild radius or something. 20:45:19 And as I work with cameras, I have to know that the reciprocial of the tangent of the half of the angle of view or whatever that is of a camera is given as "35 mm equivalent focal distance", which means 20:45:51 But what does 5µs mean? 20:46:23 that it's measured in multiplies of the width or height or diagonal of the "35 millimeter film", which is 36 millimeter high and 24 millimeter tall, depending on whether it's for a horizontal or vertical or diagonal angle of view. 20:46:45 And I've read how this works several times but I still can't remember it. 20:47:05 Oh I guess astronomy is useless for measuring G... so we have to measure miniscule forces instead. Fun. 20:47:29 And to make it worse, descriptions use "focal distance" to mean either the real focal distance, the 35 millimeter equivalent focal distance in horizontal, in vertical, or in diagonal. 20:47:33 (Astronomy uses G to infer masses.) 20:48:12 "This inherent difficulty has caused big G to become the only fundamental constant of physics for which the uncertainty of the standard value has risen over time as more and more measurements are made." -- fun :) 20:48:43 * int-e is looking at https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/puzzling-measurement-of-big-g-gravitational-constant-ignites-debate-slide-show/ 20:54:43 shachaf, int-e: yes, and the other problem is that nobody can yet make an object whose mass is more stable for decades than a relative 10**-8, so we don't have a definition for kilogram compared across different times that is more accurate than that, and it will probably get worse if you want to compare accurate scientific measurements a century fr 20:54:43 om now, 20:55:06 and experimental physicists are trying to figure out a way to improve that with some riddiculous arrangement involving counting atoms in a ball of silicon that sounds like it could never work but the physicists swear that it actually will. 20:56:49 On the other hand, they can measure distances and time and the Planck constant unimaginably precisely, which seems amazing and impossible. 20:58:08 And that is how GPSes work, in the sense that that's why GPS satellites itself know their time and place very accurately, 21:00:28 plus there's the additional trick that sounds crazy at first but works when you think about it, that inside the satellite there's a test mass freely floating in vacuum never touched by anything heavier than a few photons, heavily shielded from the various radiations of space, and the GPS measures where that test mass is and corrects its own positio 21:00:29 n with thrusters according to it, so that it doesn't drift because of solar wind or other particles. 21:00:52 The fucking test mass is effectively in a better vacuum than space, which is saying something. 21:01:13 But it actually works, because in space, you can make such a perfect vacuum. On earth, it's impossible even in the best laboratories. 21:02:30 So we actually need satellites in space for GPS, anything in the atmosphere or on earth wouldn't work precisely enough, regardless of how it couldn't communicate with GPS receivers, because it can't maintain and measure its own position accurately enough. 21:02:46 Or at least, this is my naive understanding from what I've read. 21:03:24 -!- Cool_Fire has joined. 21:04:05 And on top of that, the GPS satellites still have to be corrected for the irregular gravitational field of Earth and relativistic effects. 21:06:02 The GPS receivers themselves are quite a technological achievement and have a lot of fiddly parts to get right too, by the way. 21:08:09 -!- Cool_Fire has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:10:35 Swiss Ephemeris and SQLite are both using Julian day numbers for date/time, so the program to use them together can use this too. 21:18:15 zzo38: are they the Julian number measured in exactly the same way? 21:18:50 I mean, to second accuracy, because you were asking about leap seconds. 21:24:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:27:26 It would seem so; a query such as SELECT DATETIME(JULIANDAY()),DATETIME(JULIANDAY_UT1()); gives the same date/time in each case. 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Got SIGIRL, dying...). 23:13:36 fungot: nostril. 23:13:37 boily: after evaluating ( g x ( f y t)) ( apply foo x) 23:36:05 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57241&oldid=57240 * Galaxtone * (+0) Syntax Confliction Resolved. 23:36:35 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57242&oldid=57241 * Galaxtone * (-143) /* Instruction Syntax */ 2018-08-06: 00:25:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: ANIMATED CHICKEN). 00:28:39 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 00:34:17 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57243&oldid=57242 * Galaxtone * (-59) Boop. 00:35:54 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:37:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 00:38:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:54:54 -!- Selavi8 has joined. 00:55:44 -!- Selavi8 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 01:07:40 -!- NightMonkey5 has joined. 01:13:29 -!- NightMonkey5 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:19:00 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 01:32:56 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 01:35:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:38:40 -!- copumpkin has joined. 01:47:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:51:05 @tell wob_jonas it doesn't count as a balcony because it's not protruding. 01:51:05 Consider it noted. 01:52:51 also i stopped gnawing my toes some time during childhood. never completely managed to stop gnawing on my fingers, alas. 01:54:07 -!- OGF14 has joined. 01:54:40 -!- Shibe8 has joined. 01:56:11 -!- OGF14 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:00:35 -!- Shibe8 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:51:32 -!- imode has joined. 03:12:24 -!- urdh8 has joined. 03:12:36 -!- urdh8 has quit (K-Lined). 03:13:31 -!- ZexaronS has joined. 03:18:35 -!- ZexaronS has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:12:23 -!- moondoggy8 has joined. 04:16:09 [[Turing machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57244&oldid=50650 * A * (+72) Don't forget that there's an online simulator. 04:16:37 -!- moondoggy8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:16:44 How to determine with Xlib if a window was created using this client? 04:24:46 -!- niko22 has joined. 04:26:08 -!- niko22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:40:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:44:42 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57245&oldid=57218 * A * (+433) 04:45:44 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57246&oldid=57245 * A * (+0) Spelling.. 05:05:24 [[Metafractran]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57247 * Challenger5 * (+839) Created page with "'''Metafractran''' is a derivative of [[Fractran]] created by [[User:Challenger5]] in which all program files are irrelevant. Rather than being specified by a program file, co..." 05:07:31 [[User:Challenger5]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57248&oldid=54233 * Challenger5 * (+128) 05:08:40 [[Metafractran]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57249&oldid=57247 * Challenger5 * (+42) 05:16:27 -!- codex2064 has joined. 05:17:55 -!- codex2064 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:27:33 -!- bitch2 has joined. 05:28:17 -!- mist8 has joined. 05:28:34 -!- mist8 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 05:30:19 -!- moei has joined. 05:31:10 -!- tromp has joined. 05:33:22 -!- bitch2 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:35:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:44:15 -!- hsiktas12 has joined. 05:49:26 -!- hsiktas12 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:59:56 -!- hipp has joined. 06:01:09 -!- hipp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:17:23 -!- SerpentSpeech has joined. 06:19:09 -!- SerpentSpeech has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:24:25 -!- yaewa has joined. 06:24:27 -!- tromp has joined. 06:24:56 -!- yaewa has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:25:42 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:27:09 -!- phoe4 has joined. 06:28:41 -!- phoe4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:29:23 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:36:37 -!- nlsun has joined. 06:36:41 -!- nlsun has changed nick to Guest4636. 06:36:52 -!- tromp has joined. 06:42:10 -!- Guest4636 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 06:57:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 06:58:47 -!- moei has joined. 07:00:14 Now I made up a SQLite extension for displaying pictures on a X server. 07:06:51 -!- ReimuHakurei3 has joined. 07:08:50 -!- ReimuHakurei3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:16:11 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:17:28 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57250&oldid=57243 * Galaxtone * (-72) /* Instruction Syntax */ Fixed a little error. 07:25:51 -!- pppingme27 has joined. 07:27:43 -!- pppingme27 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:37:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:37:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 07:37:20 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:43:20 -!- sn0wmonster10 has joined. 07:49:34 -!- sn0wmonster10 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:50:03 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:55:38 -!- kasa has joined. 08:00:54 -!- kasa has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:01:23 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57251&oldid=57250 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* S */ Update to String Get to match String Put. 08:09:01 -!- Lumpi27 has joined. 08:12:27 -!- Lumpi27 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:23:29 -!- pinPoint12 has joined. 08:24:00 -!- pinPoint12 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:25:47 -!- Thanks has joined. 08:27:16 -!- Thanks has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:28:48 -!- cwre has joined. 08:29:23 -!- cwre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:54:21 Are you going to write the specification of Von Neumann's 29-state cellular automaton in esolang wiki? 09:00:13 -!- nfd has joined. 09:03:33 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:06:21 -!- manish23 has joined. 09:07:12 [[ZZT-Flip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57252&oldid=57061 * Zzo38 * (+32) 09:07:14 -!- manish23 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 09:11:14 -!- r3m26 has joined. 09:12:56 -!- r3m26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:20:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:21:29 -!- SlashLife1 has joined. 09:22:45 -!- SlashLife1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:31:11 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 09:33:40 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 09:51:05 -!- K0HAX13 has joined. 09:56:35 -!- K0HAX13 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:59:39 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57253&oldid=56631 * A * (+188) My attempt of interpreting a 3-state Busy-Beaver(on wikipedia)(maybe that will prove it Turing-complete?) 10:00:14 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57254&oldid=57253 * A * (-32) 10:02:52 -!- nfd has joined. 10:06:27 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 10:07:29 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 10:08:12 Hrm, what's this... a 3 state TM over a binary alphabet? 10:11:10 * int-e is not happy with states being called "conditions". 10:13:12 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57255&oldid=57254 * A * (+1) 10:13:49 int-e: I think it is appropriate to say that A is in a condition of willful ignorance 10:13:54 (or perhaps a state) 10:16:56 http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/utm.png seems relevant 10:19:10 (but I have not checked they count states) 10:19:18 err, *how* they count states 10:23:51 -!- boily has joined. 10:38:55 -!- Lymia has quit (Quit: Hugs~ <3). 10:45:25 -!- trobotham4 has joined. 10:46:06 -!- trobotham4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:51:02 -!- Lymia has joined. 10:54:26 -!- boily has quit (Quit: PLEASE CHICKEN). 11:18:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:07:18 -!- cottongin10 has joined. 12:08:54 -!- cottongin10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:11:27 [[Talk:Turing-machine]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57256 * Int-e * (+397) Created page with "== Computational class == According to [https://arxiv.org/abs/1110.2230 T. Neary and D. Woods], it was shown by L. Pavlotskaya that the halting problem is decidable for all Tu..." 12:18:50 -!- FrozenFox18 has joined. 12:20:42 -!- FrozenFox18 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:44:34 -!- ollien23 has joined. 12:45:21 -!- ollien23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:58:41 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:06:58 -!- hggdh1 has joined. 13:07:19 -!- hggdh1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:29:51 -!- radiofree29 has joined. 13:29:55 -!- radiofree29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:33:54 -!- Patrick28 has joined. 13:37:46 -!- Guest43996 has joined. 13:38:11 -!- Guest43996 has quit (K-Lined). 13:38:57 -!- Patrick28 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:57:43 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:26:33 -!- shikhin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:26:34 -!- Yurume_______ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:26:43 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:27:33 -!- shikhin has joined. 14:28:01 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 14:28:14 -!- Gregor` has joined. 14:29:00 -!- Yurume_______ has joined. 14:30:27 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:31:37 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 14:37:29 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 14:41:14 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:51:03 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:54:27 -!- Cale has joined. 14:58:13 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:12:53 -!- ravioli14 has joined. 15:18:25 -!- ravioli14 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:19:19 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 15:20:25 -!- tromp has joined. 15:23:48 -!- Shanmugamp715 has joined. 15:24:35 -!- Shanmugamp715 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:25:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:33:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:38:59 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:45:17 Oh heck. 15:46:31 Apparently "does" is another of those English words like "are", which both have a really common meaning and a rare one, so the rare one is completely impossible to search, because in an English you don't even have any hope to automatically parse the sentence and guess whether it's a noun or verb. 15:46:41 @messages 15:50:10 -!- arooni17 has joined. 15:50:49 -!- tromp has joined. 15:51:54 -!- arooni17 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:52:56 As in, plural of "doe"? 15:55:13 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 15:56:51 -!- Looking20 has joined. 15:57:35 -!- Looking20 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:58:16 Taneb: yes. but you can check a dictionary. 15:58:56 I'm also a native speaker, which affords some advantages 15:59:10 (and don't tell me you don't have one. I said a rare word, not a whatever rarity is below mythic rare word that you only find in the OED.) 15:59:31 (there are free English dictionaries on the internet.) 15:59:34 (I genuinely don't have a physical dictionary) 16:00:01 (although I did know both the noun definition of "does" and "are", the latter I learnt only yesterday) 16:00:02 Taneb: yes, but you have an internet connection, and you don't need the OED, you only need one of those dictionaries you can access freely 16:00:39 rare words are in most of those, mythic rare words are in the best of those. there's a rarity below that, but I almost never meet such words, and if I saw one, I'd think it's an error. 16:01:51 Taneb: there's also a verb definition for "art", and it's a form of "be", which also causes some problems in searching, but in this case the noun is more common than the verb 16:02:23 and then there's "Ares" and "ares", which are two different words, the latter is the plural of the noun "are" 16:02:27 so it gets complicated 16:11:55 I do have a dictionary, and I know those stuff 16:21:05 -!- erkin has joined. 16:24:22 Do you know if there is a better way of making working interrupting downloads in my "sqlext_curl" SQLite extension? 16:26:17 -!- ptx018 has joined. 16:27:09 -!- ptx018 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:27:33 once you count words so rare that you only find them in the OED, it gets stupid, because there's at least one super-mythic rare meaning for any reasonable combination of letters you care for, and possibly several super-mythic rare meanings for any very common word. 16:28:16 zzo38: better way than what? 16:28:29 do you have a documentation of your extension somewhere, or something? 16:29:05 and are you asking about the curl side, the sqlite interface side, or both? 16:30:02 A list of my SQLite extensions are at http://zzo38computer.org/sql/sqlite.txt and sqlext.zip in the same directory contains the source codes and further documentation. I am asking about the SQLite side, although there may be stuff in libcurl too. 16:31:04 What I am currently doing is to prepare the statement "WITH X AS (SELECT 0 UNION ALL SELECT * FROM X) SELECT * FROM X;" and then pass it as the first argument to the progress callback, which then does: return sqlite3_step(usr)!=SQLITE_ROW; 16:31:27 However, that looks like klugy to me. 16:34:15 zzo38: Sorry, I have to leave for a few hours now, but may read that later. 16:34:17 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:34:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in). 16:36:45 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:38:21 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:47:42 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 16:56:42 -!- Contessa has joined. 16:56:43 -!- fireworks10 has joined. 16:59:41 -!- aloril has joined. 17:00:16 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 17:01:21 -!- fireworks10 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 17:01:24 -!- sprocklem has joined. 17:01:35 -!- Contessa has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:09:31 -!- Cronus15 has joined. 17:15:57 -!- Cronus15 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:25:59 -!- imode has joined. 17:29:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:29:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:29:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:35:25 -!- tromp has joined. 17:40:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:47:03 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57257&oldid=57251 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* If Statements */ \_()_/ 18:02:09 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 18:04:34 -!- aloril has joined. 18:12:03 -!- cods6 has joined. 18:12:43 -!- cods6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:26:55 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 18:29:26 -!- tromp has joined. 18:32:17 Will Pope Francis I do Vatican III? 18:33:24 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:34:27 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:34:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:35:28 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:39:49 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:41:44 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:41:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:42:46 -!- sleepnap has joined. 18:44:16 zzo38, I doubt it 18:45:41 Will Pope Francis M do Vatican III? 18:49:24 Actually, what is the highest number that any pope has had? Probably not as high as M, I should think? 18:49:48 Isn't M the mobile version? 18:50:18 M is the roman numbers for one thousand 18:54:20 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 18:55:25 -!- Cajs10 has joined. 18:56:06 -!- Cajs10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:00:23 -!- x49F8 has joined. 19:06:49 -!- x49F8 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:38:05 btw hexadecimal roman: i ii iv v vi vii viv vv vvi vvii vviv (≡ivx) vx vxi vxii vxiv (≡ix) x xi xii xiv xv … xlvxiv (≡il) l … (i = 1, v = 4, x = 16, l = 64, c = 256 etc) 19:39:14 unparenthesized variants correspond to usual quatenary numeric system with digits 0, 1, 2, 3, and parenthesized ones correspond to the one with digits −1, 0, 1, 2 19:39:32 afair 19:40:59 it could be prefixed or postfixed e. g. by H as in some asms to distinguish from the usual romans 19:41:36 also this pre/postfixation allows one to represent zero: H in the last case 19:43:03 -!- xkapastel has joined. 19:46:41 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 19:47:18 OK 19:49:48 -!- MDude has joined. 19:51:42 -!- tromp has joined. 19:52:40 Someone said tabs should appear in your history when you closed them, not when you opened them. But my opinion is you should be allowed to define your own SQL queries for the history menus. 19:56:03 wise 19:56:36 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:58:54 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:59:35 -!- ATMunn has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:02:44 -!- ATMunn has joined. 20:03:10 arseniiv: look, I'd like a new representation of hexadecimal numbers, but I hate roman numbers so please don't base this on them. please invent something that is at least sort of positional and can represent large numbers too. 20:04:10 And ideally, one that can represent hexadecimal floating point numbers, so there's a way to mark the sign and the exponent and the exponent of the sign, though the exponent itself can be in decimal, describe the full syntax. 20:04:28 wob_jonas: wouldn't it not be hexadecimal if you changed it to anything but place-value notation? 20:04:29 oh, and a decimal point. I forgot that part. 20:04:51 I did see something else where the digits 7 to 1 are written upside down to make the stuff after 8, was someone's idea too I think 20:05:20 (This was on a clock; hexadecimal timekeeping was invented by many people independently, some from before computer machines were invented.) 20:05:20 also it isn't a decimal point unless you're using decimal 20:06:07 ais523: mostly, but if you, say, optionally insert a cat's scratch mark between every four digits, then I'm willing to still call that hexadecimal 20:07:26 and perhaps if there are two separate sets of glyphs for digits, either used alternately, or one set used when you want non-grid digits like when you'd use old style numerals in decimal, that's still fine. 20:07:39 But it's hard enough to find *one* good set of digits that doesn't clash with something else. 20:07:57 obviously it depends on what you want to use it for 20:08:27 I'd like one that's human-readable and human-writable and machine-readable and machine-writable 20:09:53 And reasonably easy to learn, not requiring months of training in the basics of arabic or eastern calligraphy, and then differences in stroke order of one digit depending on whether it's in chinese or japanese text. 20:10:28 That reminds me, I have a question. 20:11:27 Did you read what I wrote before you were off a while ago today? 20:11:32 Where can I find, ideally for free on the internet, a description with detailed illustrations on how to handwrite Russian, 20:12:20 not in one of those fancy archaic ways that people used three decades ago or would use on a diploma a dentist puts on his wall, but in a way that I can quickly use for jotting down a few names for reference, 20:12:37 I don't know, but I might would try looking in Wikipedia first to see if they have any 20:13:10 and it should include the entire modern Russian alphabet in both upper and lower case, and all variants required if I want to write entire words in lower case, and ideally stress accents and basic punctuation too. 20:14:20 zzo38: I did look. I found only an image showing what looks like older fancy handwriting, with like a single sample for each letter or perhaps two sets of samples, each isolated rather than connected despite that it looks like these are letters designed for connecting the lowercase ones. 20:14:29 And no stroke order. 20:15:08 OK 20:15:49 One possibility is that I should just pay a private Russian language tutor that I visit in person for a short course or something. But that might cost a ton of money. 20:16:27 If you do then you can write a book. 20:16:28 zzo: oh, I'll get back to that in a moment, thanks for reminding 20:17:03 zzo38: or at least a short few-page guide. not a full-length book from what I learn. 20:17:27 OK 20:17:30 -!- tromp has joined. 20:17:37 it would cost a ton because it would probably be one-on-one lessons, and those cost a lot, because a language teacher can realistically ask for 17000 HUF per 45 minutes or even more 20:18:12 and this would take more than 90 minutes, I think. 20:19:00 My current workaround is to write the ISO 9 transcripted equivalent, because I know how to handwrite latin letters with diacritics 20:27:26 But before I forget, another question. 20:27:35 wob_jonas: And ideally, one that can represent hexadecimal floating point numbers, so there's a way to mark the sign and the exponent and the exponent of the sign, though the exponent itself can be in decimal, describe the full syntax. => in that case, what’s wrong with the usual hexadecimal? :P 20:28:41 Oh, for bonus, I'd also like a pronunciation for the hexadecimal numbers, although there are already at least two reasonable systems for that. And if possible, also a long pronunciation system, for noisy environments. 20:31:03 hmm, I wonder what the two most differentiable sounds are? you could use them to spell out the nybbles in binary 20:31:29 arseniiv: there are multiple things wrong. some of them can't be fixed by another standard: nobody can agree if the digits A-Z should be uppercase or lowercase, some programs only accept uppercase (TeX and bc and dc; and you definitely can't change those), but many programs emit lowercase (including some /proc interfaces in the kernel), and I think 20:31:29 I've even seen programs that only accept lowercase. 20:32:18 wob_jonas: I believe that uppercase is standard; the issue is that in many libraries it's customizable 20:32:32 e.g. C *printf uses %X or %x for hex according to the case of letters you want 20:32:46 ais523: that would be hard for the mind of both the listener and the speaker, and also the most differentiable ones are very long and varied, to make sure it works for different background noises and loud noises blotting out different moments entirely. 20:32:50 the problem there is that most printf specifiers are lowercase 20:32:55 so people tend to use %x out of consistency 20:33:12 ais523: you want pronouncable ones, right? if not, probably a fucking loud air raid siren and silence. 20:33:29 hmm, I guess they need to be self-delimiting too 20:33:48 "upwards chirp" and "downwards chirp" might work, it's very rare to misinterpret one as the other 20:33:55 you might be unsure which you've heard but then you can ask for a resend 20:33:55 What is a C struct/union type? 20:34:00 or perhaps a jet engine and silence, because I'm not sure air raid siren sounds are actually well designed for some hard-on-hearing people who only hear low frequency sounds 20:34:10 shachaf: what level of abstraction are you asking at? 20:34:18 It seems to involve a bunch of different properties. 20:34:50 I guess what it includes is, at least: A sizeof; a namespace of members; for each member, an offset. 20:34:57 ais523: there are solutions for sounds that aren't self-delimiting if the two sounds are of equal length: what serial lines does works 20:35:06 shachaf: oh, I see 20:35:20 But also something like a calling convention which lets you pass a struct type in registers etc. 20:35:22 in very early versions of C, members weren't namespaced, and were just constants describing the offset 20:35:23 as in, wrapping them so they're now delimited 20:35:34 but that's changed since 20:35:46 TeX uses lowercase hex for ^^ and uppercase hex for " 20:36:12 I'm not sure if the calling convention is part of the struct type itself, normally ABIs will have a clause about "here's how you give a structure that's six bytes long as a parameter", or the like 20:36:21 It's not strictly the calling convention. 20:36:25 that said, more complex ABIs may care about whether the struct contains ints or floats… 20:36:33 What I mean is that it says "if you specify a value for each member, you've specified the entire struct" 20:36:44 Even if there's some extra memory for alignment or something. 20:36:49 shachaf: no no, the calling conventions are all defined on each architecture deterministically from the definition of the C struct, which contains the order and type and name (and field width if you're masochistic) of each member plus the alignas specifier and attributes on the struct itself. 20:37:03 shachaf: and the sizeof is part of the calling conventions 20:37:07 Yes, the struct itself doesn't include the calling convention, but you see what I'm getting at. 20:37:30 I don't think == works on structs, does it? 20:37:31 A struct isn't just a thing in memory with offsets, it can have different representations. 20:37:42 and I don't think memcmp does either because it compares padding bytes 20:38:28 wob_jonas: Where can I find, ideally for free on the internet, a description with detailed illustrations on how to handwrite Russian, // not in one of those fancy archaic ways that people used three decades ago or would use on a diploma a dentist puts on his wall, but in a way that I can quickly use for jotting down a few names for reference => oh neat one! I am native and I didn’t search too much, but after that little search I think 20:38:28 it’s still described in full only in paper textbooks for children :\ 20:38:29 AFAIR letter connections are fairly simple, only several letters have two forms (в, о, ю, ь, ъ — all because of circles at the right, but I can’t remember about ф in this regard). If there wouldn’t be any better findings, I’ll try to fix something (I don’t use this style in my handwritting, it’s a mishmash of styles, but this one is too slow to use consistently 20:38:58 If you pass a struct with two members to a function, it's permitted to just pass the two values in registers, without passing the padding in, right? 20:38:59 shachaf: do you want to know the rules of calling conventions for C and C++ structs on linux-x86_32 and linux-x86_64 and win32-x86_32 and win32-x86_64? I have link to both the ELF specs defining the linux C special case, and Agner's writeup which describes them in a readable way. 20:39:31 wob_jonas: I'm not so much asking about any particular architecture but about what the language construct is. 20:40:04 you can also look up in a C/C++ compiler source code, or a debugger source code, or even most of the C calling conventions in a haskell compiler or rust compiler source code, although a few crazy pieces like bitfields and atomics may be missing from the latter 20:40:07 Is struct assignment with = required to copy padding? I would imagine not? 20:40:33 shachaf: oh, do you mean the semantics of structs guaranteed by the language for all architecture? 20:40:45 Maybe? 20:41:02 I'm not really thinking about C here, I'm trying to figure out how you might define structs in another language. 20:41:09 that's a bit complicated. I can point you to the respective standards, but it's likely better to ask on the ##c and ##c++ channels on freenode 20:41:10 Can you make structs/unions a user-defined thing? 20:41:36 If so what information would they need? 20:41:52 shachaf: do you mean you want to know about structs in rust or D or some other specific language? 20:41:52 wob_jonas: Oh, for bonus, I'd also like a pronunciation for the hexadecimal numbers, although there are already at least two reasonable systems for that. And if possible, also a long pronunciation system, for noisy environments. => I pass then :D 20:42:04 wob_jonas: No, a hypothetical language. 20:42:33 shachaf: IIRC parameter passing is defined as initialisation, which wouldn't copy padding as it's conceptually field-by-field 20:42:39 shachaf: a hypothetical language can define its rules however you want, but you might want to find out about the rules in existing similar languages first 20:42:50 ais523: Right. 20:42:53 ais523: that's for C, right? 20:43:10 wob_jonas: OK, is there any language that supports something like user-defined struct data types? 20:43:34 but I think there's some magic in the standard that actually lets it overwrite the padding bits and bytes if the compiler chooses to, because in practice that's often faster 20:43:38 wob_jonas: yes, we're talking about C 20:43:52 I don't think initialisation puts any requirement on what the padding bits are 20:44:03 so a memcpy would be allowed by the as-if rule 20:44:34 shachaf: C, C++, rust, D, probably more but I don't really know any by heart 20:44:48 ais523: I'm saying because the C++ rules are much more complicated 20:44:55 wob_jonas: I mean user-defined as in "struct isn't a fundamental notion in the language" 20:45:20 But instead you define a type and say that this is the sizeof and there are values at these offsets and so on. 20:45:36 wob_jonas: oh, sometimes I feel better if I pretend C++ doesn't exist 20:45:48 shachaf: are algebraic types, ML-like, or rust enums, a fundamental concept? 20:45:57 it's something like three languages at this point 20:46:07 In Go, the "namespace" aspect is a bit more explicit: You can write "type A struct { x int; y int; }; type B struct { A; ... }", and then refer to "b.x" 20:46:08 shachaf: oh, you want one where you define the memory representation and perhaps even the calling convention? 20:46:13 ais523: hmm, I wonder what the two most differentiable sounds are? you could use them to spell out the nybbles in binary => maybe something noisy, a fricative like [ʃ] or [ç] or something, and something sonorant like a vowel, maybe a closed one like [i] or [u] or [y] will do better (IDK) 20:46:19 shachaf: I think some assemblers let you define structs like that 20:46:22 shachaf: in OCaml too 20:46:26 you can give arbitrary offsets 20:46:45 but then you have to write all the code that reads and write the struct, you can only refer to the offset values conveniently 20:46:52 wait, I misread 20:46:57 since, you know, that's the whole point of assemblers 20:46:57 wob_jonas: I don't know about defining the calling convention explicitly so much as specifying the information in the struct to the point that the compiler can figure out a convention. 20:47:00 that's a common extension to C 20:47:09 shachaf: It is possible in some C compilers as well 20:47:21 in the OCaml method you have to give namespaces explicitly for struct field access 20:47:30 i.e. say which struct it belongs to 20:47:33 ah, self-delimited fails for thoswe 20:47:34 How do you mean? 20:48:06 shachaf: you can usually just do that by adding specific dummy fields so there's no automatically inserted padding, plus an alignas marking for the struct, and making all fields the right type 20:48:12 and in the right order too 20:48:13 I think something like (in C++) "struct B { A base; using namespace base; ... };" could be nice. 20:48:21 and possibly including unions 20:48:35 but if you want something exotic like overlapping fields, then you're out of luck unless perhaps you can do it in fortran 20:48:41 I mean, partially overlapping fields 20:48:42 Unions are "just" structs where all the members have offset 0. 20:49:07 no, I mean, two fields where the upper part of one overlaps the lower part of the other 20:49:12 Kind of? I guess the calling convention can get tricky. 20:49:24 Yes, you can use unions, and with GNU C you can also have zero length arrays 20:49:30 I don't care about overlapping fields very much, I think in a case like that you might be better off doing it manually. 20:49:52 although I think you can do even that with unnamed unions, which C and rust now have, and unions in C++ at the cost of it being slightly more difficult to reference the fields 20:49:58 zzo38: C99 has something similar to zero-length arrays. 20:50:25 Yes, the GCC documentation mentions that, but it isn't as good as real zero-length arrays, I think 20:50:33 C++ and rust both have improved support for unions now, although rust's isn't perfect yet, but people always want to improve everything in rust, so duh 20:51:12 Rust has tagged unions, I expect? 20:51:19 the untagged kind is rather ridiculously unsafe 20:51:23 zzo38: oh, you want zero-length arrays? then write it with rust structs and rust unions, each #[repr(C)] and possibly whatever the new syntax of alignof is 20:51:42 zzo38: rust fully supports zero-length anything, and even has special language rules to make them work really well 20:52:12 only problem is, no anonymous inner structs/unions yet, but there's a proposal, and it will go through because it's needed for wrapping some C interfaces 20:52:23 ais523: rust has both 20:52:25 gcc supports zero-length arrays, which is annoying when you're trying to cause an error during type checking 20:52:36 You can use negative lengths to cause an error during type checking. 20:52:39 and yes, the untagged is unsafe, but sometimes you want that to control representation exactly 20:52:41 That is what I do 20:52:44 my static_assert implementation has to use a negative-sized array, right 20:52:52 the tagged ones are called enum 20:53:06 In addition to C structs/unions I want to figure out whether C++-style (non-virtual) methods are a good idea or not. They're also an odd mix of several things. 20:53:12 a tagged union is really a cross between an enum and a union 20:53:18 enumion 20:53:21 and #[repr(C)] enum even have a definite representation now, or will soon have iirc 20:53:38 as in, a representation promised by the language in all future compilers 20:53:53 that's kind-of weird, C compilers aren't stable as to how to represent enums 20:53:57 (I have also seen using a enum with a division by zero to cause conditional compiler errors) 20:53:59 although I think only if you add a #[repr(u32)] or similar to tell what type the tag is 20:54:01 They give you namespacing, so you can write "v.push(x)" instead of "vector_push(v, x)" 20:54:13 The namespacing is nice because you don't have to type the type name everywhere. 20:54:33 But they also give you an implicit "this" argument, which seems kind of pointless? 20:54:44 shachaf: some languages use "unified call syntax" where a.f(b) and f(a,b) are syntactic sugar for each other 20:54:58 ais523: I guess that can work if you have overloaded functions. 20:55:06 But it's kind of ugly to put f in global namespace. 20:55:08 ais523: in rust, if you add #[repr(C)] #[repr(u32)] or similar for almost any integer type, then the repr is defined, at least in not too old versions, as a struct whose first element is the tag and the second is a union of the variants or of structs of the variants or something. 20:55:15 yes, it presumably only makes sense with overloading 20:55:31 although, I can envisage a language where the options are a.f(b) and n.f(a,b) where n is a namespace 20:55:34 I think the idea of methods is, an object is a "dynamic" namespace which is created at runtime. 20:55:35 i.e. a has a "default" namespace 20:55:40 ais523: in most other cases, it's implementation-defined, because the compiler does some optimizations on the representation that they don't want to promise to be the same in the future, and are a bit long to describe, 20:56:13 wob_jonas: like Option> using a null pointer for the Nothing case? 20:56:28 and thus not needing a separate tag at all? 20:56:45 ais523: yes, although it's more general than that, and complicated 20:57:02 ais523: I don't know the full rules, and don't want to know 20:57:33 right, I was just giving an example of the sort of optimisation you'd expect 20:58:07 * ais523 vaguely wonders if, in the case that you have an enum where all the payloads are pointers with alignment > 1, it's efficient to put the tag in the low-order bits of the pointers 20:58:08 basically, usually you let the compiler do its thing, but if you want a specific representation for either passing to or from non-rust code or optimization, then you use structs and unions and enums with specific #[repr] tags to achieve exactly the representation you want, like you can do in C too 20:59:20 ais523: it depends on what you want to optimize for, low memory usage like in the heap of a prolog or scheme compiler, or fast computation like in a struct you just filled and pass to a function? 20:59:25 wob_jonas: That also seems like something I'd rather specify in user code instead of as a compiler rule. 20:59:59 this is why the compiler has to be conservative with what optimizations it will do, at least when it has to fix the representation for external crates, rather than when it can get away with anything by the as-if rule 21:00:14 If you have enum { One, Two, Three(Box) }, will it use two invalid pointer values (e.g. 0 and 1) for the first two tags? 21:00:34 wob_jonas: right, I was mostly just curious as to what the performance was like speed-wise (the memory savings are obvious) 21:00:57 1 is not an invalid pointer value on all platforms; in fact, 0 is not invalid on all platforms either 21:01:09 a pointer to 0 might be fairly useful on the 6502 21:01:18 Right. 21:01:27 (this sort of thing is why C gives flexibility for NULL to be something other than all-bits-zero) 21:01:31 ais523: but besides the optimization for when you tell the compiler that the contents of one branch is a nonzero pointer or integer (wrapped in any abstractions) and there's only two branches, there is an optimization for nested enums, and for enums with only one branch where the arm type isn't void, and I think more 21:01:38 But surely on most platforms there are some pointer values that can be considered invalid. 21:01:49 ais523: one thing that's not obvious is when you want to put the tag at the start and when at the end 21:01:52 at the time there would normally be unmapped bytes in the middle of the memory space, maybe 0xA000 would make for a good NULL 21:01:59 C++ null pointers-to-members are often represented as -1, because 0 is a reasonable offset. 21:02:27 what is a pointer-to-member? is it effectively a "function pointer for a getter" but optimised? 21:02:56 It's an offset into a struct, more or less. 21:03:07 wob_jonas: well, if this is "repr(C)" you'd put the tag at the start, because of the guarantees C gives about struct layout 21:03:28 ais523: some people say that future rust compilers should reorder fields in structs if that avoids padding fields. it is clear that the current docs allow rust to do this, at least for structs without a #[repr(...)] that excludes that, but I for one don't think it's a good idea to actually do that ever 21:03:39 struct A { int x, y; }; A a; int A::*p = &A::y; 21:04:03 In this case you can use a.*p to get the y from an A 21:04:29 wob_jonas: if all the fields in a struct are power-of-2 size they should be stored in reverse size order; perhaps that should be done in the source, though, rather than by the compiler 21:04:48 -!- Guest89349 has joined. 21:04:55 -!- Guest89349 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:06:37 ais523: yes, and there's actually another guaranteed representation case: a "C-like enum" with #[repr(i32)] or almost any other integer type, which is basically one with all arms empty, what get from #[repr(i32)] enum { X, Y, Z } or from #[repr(i32)] enum { X=2, Y=4, Z=3 } 21:07:47 I have a totally different OT question, I want to ask it before I forget 21:08:54 today's bonus comic https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/laws-and-sausages says that Zach (the creator of SMBC) is launching a new popularized nonfiction webcomic. He teams up with an expert in the nonfiction topic the webcomic popularizes, and with an "artist". 21:09:24 My question is, who draws the comics and what does the "artist" do and what the heck Zach does if the artist draws the comics and the expert gives the content? 21:09:48 some comics work by assembly from components 21:09:57 like, they'll have stock images of their characters, locations, etc. 21:10:07 and then to make the comic someone will copy-and-paste the images and add words 21:10:17 that tends to be a good way to save time if you have a lot of recurring characters 21:10:21 And why do they need an artist if Zach could handle all the art just fine so far. 21:10:25 normally you'll have some new art in a comic (but not always!) 21:10:43 -!- aphel has joined. 21:10:54 the expert gives the expertise 21:11:00 zach would presumably mostly be the writer 21:11:29 -!- aphel has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:11:47 ais523: I had heard of a separate letterer or a separate colorist or a separate writer. separate writer might be a good guess for Zach actually, in which case the artist would do all the drawing. 21:12:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:12:52 oh. http://lawsandsausagescomic.com/about says "Laws and Sausages is co-written by brothers Greg Weiner and Zach Weinersmith, and drawn by Dennis Culver." 21:13:14 so both the expert and zach writes, or so they claim, and the artist draws. 21:15:14 wob_jonas: on cursive: this https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/comments/69mcom/пиши_русские_буквы_правильно shows some connections (maybe not all form variations but it’s a good start nonetheless); as one can guess, in a connection the letter to the right decides form of the left letter, and it’s a simple rule: whether the right letter starts from down or up. On stroke order I’d approve https://i.pinimg.com/ 21:15:14 originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg 21:15:20 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 21:15:34 oh the link should concatenate to https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg 21:16:02 arseniiv: thanks 21:17:15 also I could make a screencast on writing various things. Can’t say it would be 100% canonical, but all the same, people write differently 21:17:21 not today though 21:18:02 and it would be mouse-writing with all the consequences :D 21:18:28 arseniiv: thanks 21:18:48 those two are good links 21:19:35 glad you liked them 21:19:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:20:01 How is the left stroke of the en written? is that one you're supposed to write after the entire word, like accents and t's stroke, according to teachers, although I never do that? 21:20:23 Or is the whole en written in one long unbroken line? 21:21:14 Oh, this looks like a version that's designed for writing almost everything in one unbroken line, except the j 21:22:02 or perhaps not, because the o with a low connection after looks hard that way 21:24:10 and similarly to the en, I wonder how you write the left side of the ju 21:24:18 still, this helps a lot 21:25:54 wob_jonas: Or is the whole en written in one long unbroken line? => this one. I’ll show tomorrow I swear 21:26:27 I can try to practice based on this. I'd probably have to write much slower than I usually write latin letter text for myself, but the latin letter text is barely readable (even for me) then 21:26:31 at least as I remember it 21:27:08 arseniiv: well, now I have to remind you. and if you do it, please publish it to somewhere that anyone can watch, like youtube. 21:27:36 yeah if I write quite fast, the result is a mess. I was doing that at uni 21:27:41 and make sure you aren't writing so fast that the video doesn't actually show all the details of the stroke order 21:27:49 youtube seems okay 21:27:52 sure, the uni is where I learned too 21:28:19 also some math notation besides latin letter text, and lots of abbreviations 21:28:37 in the first few years of university that is 21:28:49 it gets less heavy on writing later 21:29:09 except on a few exams and competitions 21:29:18 hm I don’t know if there a difference in math beside digits in cursive 21:29:27 I’ll include digits 21:29:57 and punctuation, but I’m unsure about quote marks 21:30:21 there was an oral exam where I wrote ten pages, then the teacher, who thought I was good at that subject, told me that if I write even one more line he'll kick me out, but then I placated him by saying that the first five pages are actually not even needed for the part I'm supposed to say so he can just ignore those 21:30:36 arseniiv: I don't need that 21:30:44 arseniiv: I won't write math in russian 21:31:02 oops I misread 21:31:10 arseniiv: you can still do it for other people if you want, but I already know how to write math in Hungarian or English, and don't need it in russian 21:31:35 -!- johnpark_pj has joined. 21:31:56 yeah then just digits. The rest is no doubt the same 21:32:49 well gtg 21:33:03 bye 21:33:21 -!- johnpark_pj has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:30 bye! 21:37:04 Did you see my SQLite extensions by now? 21:38:09 zzo38: no, we had other chat 21:38:17 I have it open in tabs 21:38:29 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:39:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:42:13 OK 21:52:58 -!- Shinobi has joined. 21:52:59 -!- Shinobi has quit (K-Lined). 22:01:14 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:12:55 -!- khronosschoty17 has joined. 22:14:07 -!- khronosschoty17 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:14:47 -!- sleepnap has joined. 22:17:30 -!- tromp has joined. 22:22:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:23:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:25:58 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 22:28:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:31:50 zzo38: sorry, I won't be able to look at it this evening, it's too late and I found more interesting things 22:31:53 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:36:39 -!- shikhin has quit (Changing host). 22:36:39 -!- shikhin has joined. 22:36:45 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:45:00 -!- tharkun28 has joined. 22:49:54 -!- tharkun28 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:49:55 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 23:03:15 -!- joast has joined. 23:06:30 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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I have to paste it on the pastebin. :( 01:01:02 [[Turing-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57261&oldid=57260 * A * (+1) 01:03:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:30:15 . o O ( some does, some deer, some female deer ) 01:33:02 regarding dictionaries, i am finally getting around to italian songs and am somewhat annoyed that wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented (barring actual IPA, necessary to know stress and vowel quality) 01:34:42 the russian ones are, presumably because it would be insane not to. and greek has mandatory accents so its spelling -> pronunciation correspondence is actually better than italian (but much worse in the opposite direction) 01:35:42 (also the russian entries use a great automatic IPA module) 01:35:48 they're not properly accented? blah 01:35:57 unless the accents are optional that should be fixed 01:36:09 alercah: they are optional, but you need them in dictionaries 01:36:11 ahhh 01:36:20 that should probably be fixed though 01:36:23 (except at the very last syllable, where they're mandatory) 01:36:29 maybe with like "unaccented form of " as a redirect 01:36:42 I have search for several languages in english wiktionary as search keywords 01:36:52 (by which I mean main wiktionary search, but with #Language at the end 01:37:34 alercah: the russian entries use the unaccented form as the article name but still include accents on the entry itself 01:42:02 oerjan: interesting 01:42:13 Irish entries use accents in the page name 01:42:21 this is for English wiktionary though 01:44:09 for russian you pretty much have to do it that way because no one uses the accents outside dictionaries and textbooks. they cannot even get the new letter Ё to stick. 01:44:49 (people use Е instead) 01:46:22 ah 01:48:53 -!- tromp has joined. 01:48:58 this entry has audio which sounds to me like the accented version would be mèttere, which is wrong https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mettere#Italian 01:49:11 (as i found by checking the italian wiktionary) 01:49:45 the distinction between è and é isn't easy for a norwegian, we pretty much have them as allophones :P 01:50:39 yeah 01:51:03 things that are allophones in your native language are always difficult to handle 01:51:22 I can't really manage palatized/velarized distinction 01:51:23 and ó and ò are similar but perhaps not quite as bad 01:51:46 my dialect has palatal consonants so i got a bit of a head start. 01:51:57 (not all norwegian dialects do) 01:53:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:55:15 although we don't have any velarization, the dark english l helped there. 01:55:51 i think. assuming i actually do it right. 02:59:51 -!- K0HAX28 has joined. 03:00:58 -!- K0HAX28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:05:36 -!- Tabmow has joined. 03:05:59 -!- Tabmow has changed nick to Guest95283. 03:09:28 -!- Roedy28 has joined. 03:09:54 -!- Roedy28 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 03:11:09 @tell wob_jonas there was an oral exam where I wrote ten pages [...] <-- i think you've got oral exams wrong hth 03:11:10 Consider it noted. 03:11:45 -!- Guest95283 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 03:12:45 unless wob_jonas is the doctor 03:17:45 Do you play Scrabble with memoryless wildcards? 03:25:29 Is wob_jonas a doctor? 03:34:09 -!- tromp has joined. 03:38:20 i think he may have a doctorate? 03:38:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:38:59 OK 03:42:03 i am not sure though. 03:42:15 i find an MsC thesis. 03:43:27 OK 04:13:15 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:14:37 They should add into bsdtar a command to specify the format when reading a archive, to override the autodetection. (It says there is a --format option but it can be used only when writing and not when reading.) 04:14:38 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 04:15:49 I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures? 04:15:59 Factor is not a Lisp but I think qualifies for the latter part 04:18:24 (I originally installed bsdtar because it could read truncated ZIP archives, while 7-Zip and Info-Zip do not.) 04:35:21 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 04:36:27 -!- K0HAX27 has joined. 04:36:28 -!- K0HAX27 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:50:04 -!- ski777714 has joined. 04:50:30 -!- ski777714 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 04:52:46 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:00:33 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57262&oldid=56450 * A * (+6) 05:01:32 [[--Unless]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57263&oldid=57262 * A * (-156) /* Tutorial */ 05:10:48 -!- drakythe23 has joined. 05:16:58 -!- drakythe23 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:18:58 -!- tromp has joined. 05:23:45 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 06:12:05 -!- tromp has joined. 06:16:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:22:28 -!- tromp has joined. 06:27:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:42:31 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:52:34 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 07:04:37 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:05:13 -!- tromp has joined. 07:10:09 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:12:40 -!- tromp has joined. 07:19:01 -!- parduse has joined. 08:16:10 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:29:47 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:39:22 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:44:01 -!- casdr3 has joined. 08:44:10 -!- casdr3 has quit (K-Lined). 09:03:34 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:06:33 oerjan: "wiktionary's italian entries aren't fully accented", "the russian ones are" => in which language Wiktionary? you can check in both the french, the english, and the native one. maybe one of them has the accents or pronunciation. 09:06:45 oerjan: also, how about the Lithuanian entries? 09:06:50 @messages 09:07:51 oerjan: mind you, in the English wiktionary, pronunciation is missing for most English words, and you know how bad the correspondance is there 09:08:32 if I'm at home, I can use my paper dictionaries to look up the pronunciation of many words 09:08:54 -!- GDiaX has joined. 09:10:22 "maybe with like "unaccented form of " as a redirect" => no no. the unaccented form is the normal form, so it's the page title. but the accents are shown in the bold header of each separate unrelated etimology under the language and possibly etimology headings 09:10:27 -!- GDiaX has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:11:19 you find the unaccented form in normal text, so that's what has to be the page title, and in the rare case when you're reading a children's text, either you remove the accents or there's some bot that creates redirects from the accented form 09:12:06 oerjan: it's like for English dictionaries that show hyphenation in the headwords. wiktionary could do that, but doesn't for some reason, and the page title would not include the hyphenation dots 09:28:21 or Hungarian dictionaries that mark compound words written without the hyphen with a vertical bar in the headword, because that is a concise way to tell the etymology for most of them, and for some compound words you would get the wrong hyphenation otherwise 09:47:51 "Is wob_jonas a doctor?" => no. 09:50:03 think he may have a doctorate?" => I don't. I started a PhD studies, but stopped, I didn't write a thesis and didn't take the final exams either 09:50:15 I also didn't defend a thesis, obviously 09:50:41 I did defend the MsC-equivalent thesis and got the MsC-equivalent degree 09:51:22 "I think someone here asked if any Lisps used lambdas for control structures?" => scheme does, together with a builtin if control structure 09:59:37 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 10:02:08 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:02:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:03:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 11:06:08 -!- Shnaw0 has joined. 11:06:28 -!- Shnaw0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:23:00 -!- walle303 has joined. 11:23:19 -!- walle303 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:27:24 -!- jacob278 has joined. 11:27:40 [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57264&oldid=57086 * Hakerh400 * (-35) Updated language description 11:33:57 -!- jacob278 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 11:35:06 -!- jacob278 has joined. 11:56:22 -!- Pugabyte14 has joined. 11:58:10 -!- Pugabyte14 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:15:24 -!- jacob278 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:49:03 -!- atriq has joined. 12:49:33 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services). 12:49:37 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb. 12:50:47 -!- nchambers has quit (Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish!). 12:50:48 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:50:49 -!- ineiros has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:50:49 -!- heroux_ has changed nick to heroux. 12:51:01 -!- shachaf has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 12:51:04 -!- ineiros has joined. 12:51:13 -!- heroux_ has joined. 12:51:59 -!- shachaf has joined. 12:52:36 -!- shachaf has quit (Changing host). 12:52:36 -!- shachaf has joined. 12:54:46 -!- uplime has joined. 12:55:50 [[Noida]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57265 * Saka * (+3007) Created page with "Noida is an esolang created by [[User:Saka]]. It is designed to be simple and easy to write an interpreter for. Noida is short for "No idea" because I didn't know what to nam..." 13:05:39 -!- ome has joined. 13:08:59 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:10:35 -!- ome has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:31:15 -!- Grimnir16 has joined. 13:34:08 -!- tromp has quit. 13:35:57 -!- Grimnir16 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:44:54 [[User:Saka]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57266&oldid=56201 * Saka * (+12) /* My Languages */ 13:46:36 -!- tromp has joined. 13:55:59 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:11:24 -!- parduse has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:18:15 -!- Guest32737 has joined. 14:19:26 -!- Guest32737 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:41:50 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 14:42:14 `olist 1133 14:42:15 olist 1133: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 14:42:39 Who was the one who guessed there'd be an olist yesterday? You were wrong. But there is one today. 14:43:13 wob_jonas: oh hey I’m almost done 14:43:32 I'm not. I'm still at work 14:43:40 and getting back to work in a moment 14:43:43 people mess my concentration however 14:44:16 no problem, I still will be editing the video after it’s recorded 14:44:39 and you may watch it any time 14:45:14 -!- evilman_work17 has joined. 14:45:56 -!- evilman_work17 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:01:49 -!- thomas0 has joined. 15:03:19 -!- thomas0 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 15:20:50 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:26:41 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:52:36 -!- imode has joined. 15:52:47 carl hewitt is a crank, change my view. 16:08:33 -!- CGML2 has joined. 16:09:37 -!- CGML2 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 16:10:06 why? you're correct 16:10:06 -!- WizJin has joined. 16:11:12 the initial stuff on actors was okay but now he's in to this weird DirectLogic stuff where he posts cryptic ms word documents on arxiv and responds to questions like a fortune cookie 16:11:34 "Types are fundamental to computation. Lucky numbers 7, 11, 23." 16:11:53 -!- WizJin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:12:46 oh he went way overboard with actors. his original paper reads like a seriously unhinged person's monologue, nothing of substance, and what's more he's now claiming that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines. 16:13:09 yeah the real number stuff, due to unbounded nondeterminism i think? 16:13:54 yeah but he fails to even produce a proof... 16:14:50 i'm not even a fan of actors these days, they are basically a form of callbacks 16:15:20 there was at least one person who claimed to understand hewitt's posts on lambda the ultimate but he hasn't been around in a while 16:15:46 I'd like them to sit down and explain to me what the fuck he's on about to be honest. 16:15:52 i just want to see a simple directlogic interpreter 16:16:05 I read the original paper, in all its scanned-in low-res glory, and it was a mess. 16:16:09 no actual formalisms. 16:16:21 I haven't seen DirectLogic, I'll look that up. 16:16:52 it's connected to his new ActorScript stuff, supposedly some kind of "inconsistency robust" logic 16:17:13 how in the world is he going to handle that. 16:17:14 ActorScript itself is not very well defined 16:17:28 and he seems to introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up 16:17:34 based on what you can see in the arxiv docs 16:17:58 if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it 16:18:02 but all he does is write ms word docs 16:18:16 we have "inconsistency robust" logic, it's called computation. 16:18:39 the hell is he on about.. 16:18:56 -!- erkin has joined. 16:19:07 http://www.subjectcentric.com/posts/carl_hewitt_s_direct_logic__inconsistency_tolerant_reasoning_and_subject-centric_computing/ I found this on Direct Logic. 16:20:28 "it means we have arguments for both P and ~P" okay, while that says nothing about the truth value of the proposition, what in the world can you say with that formula. 16:21:00 well, paraconsistent logic is a thing 16:21:03 hewitt didn't invent that 16:21:21 there are ways of dealing with knowledge bases that contain both `P` and `not P` 16:21:31 the thing is, hewitt doesn't really describe how his works 16:21:33 right, but is that really all direct logic is. 16:21:46 it's not clear what direct logic is, because it makes all sorts of grandiose claims 16:21:56 for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems 16:22:05 he claims the second one is actually incorrect 16:22:09 now that would be a fuckin' sight. 16:22:44 iirc he claims direct logic is both sound and complete and capable of expressing properties of real numbers 16:22:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:22:55 got any links to some of the more "focused" papers he's published? 16:22:58 no 16:22:59 or, should I say, uploaded. 16:23:00 lol 16:23:04 lmao. 16:23:20 none of the stuff is focused, that's what i've been getting at 16:23:29 if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting, even if he's wrong 16:23:38 people have made grandiose claims and been wrong before, i don't hold that against them 16:23:45 what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process 16:24:15 it's just a tease, he claims to have this great idea which is almost certainly wrong but still interesting, but he'll never actually describe it to you 16:24:18 it's an attempt to delay the discovery that he's full of shit. 16:24:33 he apparently has quite the cult of personality. 16:25:32 https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I'm going in. 16:26:55 -!- grubles10 has joined. 16:28:27 well, he's stated the abstract 4 times. 16:28:42 -!- grubles10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:29:04 my god there's more quotes than self-authored material. 16:29:32 -!- tromp has joined. 16:29:50 dave ackley has more coherence than this guy. 16:30:52 -!- SakiiR25 has joined. 16:31:28 -!- SakiiR25 has quit (K-Lined). 16:36:49 okay, so he walked through how to derive inconsistency using a catch-22. he then shows the same derivations in almost exactly the same notation (only THIS TIME he's writing `catch-22` on everything) with little to no changes, other than he doesn't discard the contradiction. 16:37:34 he's restated the abstract another 10 times. 16:42:58 35 pages down, and I wish I was kidding but these pages are so short. 16:44:05 there is a god damn quote on every page. 16:45:29 okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper, and now we're at the appendix. "Details of Direct Logic". 16:45:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:47:00 -!- Andre483 has joined. 16:47:30 "you can't parse real numbers." thank you, carl, I didn't know that. 16:48:15 -!- Andre483 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 16:48:55 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:49:00 he appears to be constructing some kind of meta-logic that actually differentiates between different kinds of logical objects. you can reason over types, booleans, natural numbers, propositions, proofs, and theories.. okay, that's higher-order logic. 16:49:29 I forgot sentences in there. 16:50:29 meaning you can reason about the actual formulas, the string forms of said formulas, and some indirect references to other formulas. 16:50:48 this man likes his unicode. 16:51:17 there are seperate inference rules for the different types. 16:54:10 and a few pages later, there's nothing actually addressing the concept of inconsistency. 16:56:20 he strikes me as a sort of George Spencer Brown figure. 16:57:45 xkapastel: you were right, that was incredibly... unhinged. I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao) but I never expected it to come from a "well-cited" source like Hewitt. 17:00:17 -!- ksft25 has joined. 17:02:14 -!- ksft25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:08:46 -!- tromp has joined. 17:23:38 -!- Guest79923 has joined. 17:25:01 -!- Guest79923 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:26:31 wob_jonas: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c 17:27:12 an imperfection-rich thing about cursive 17:27:33 hope it’s more useful than harmful :D 17:53:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:53:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:53:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:57:10 -!- zz_ka6sox has joined. 17:57:55 -!- zz_ka6sox has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:06:28 -!- jelly29 has joined. 18:11:48 -!- jelly29 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:37:09 -!- fydel has joined. 18:38:55 -!- fydel has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:41:05 -!- maxalt19 has joined. 18:41:24 -!- maxalt19 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:41:46 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:41:49 -!- steven0 has joined. 18:47:31 -!- steven0 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 18:48:37 -!- aloril has joined. 18:54:48 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:07:33 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57267&oldid=57093 * DMC * (+35) 19:16:14 [[Grawlix]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57268&oldid=54961 * DMC * (+36) /* Examples */ 19:20:41 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cmax521 * New user account 19:21:01 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:22:54 imode: "that actors are more powerful, computationally, than turing machines." => I hope it's not just a cheap marketing shot where he later proves that they're actually equivalent to turing machines with a random source 19:23:23 becuse these days we tend to think those are probably equivalent 19:25:08 xkapastel: "introduce a new keyword to handle anything that comes up" => ugly 19:25:10 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57269&oldid=57135 * Cmax521 * (+142) /* Introductions */ 19:25:54 xkapastel: "if he really had a straightforward idea he could write an interpreter, however naive and slow and bad, just to demonstrate it / but all he does is write ms word docs" => so there's no interpreter, not even a partial one? 19:25:55 wow 19:26:32 yeah there's nothing of substance in anything he writes. 19:26:57 wob_jonas: his argument is "unbounded determinism" yields hypercomputation. 19:27:01 xkapastel: "for example, he claims to get around goedel's incompleteness theorems / he claims the second one is actually incorrect" => ah, it's getting worse 19:27:33 -!- tromp has joined. 19:27:37 imode: doesn't that mean that it's impossible to interpret on a turing-machine or subset then? 19:27:44 yes. 19:27:48 great 19:27:51 which is total bullshit. 19:27:53 so that's why he doesn't have an interpreter 19:28:04 at least that part is consistent 19:28:26 just because our machines are LBMs doesn't stop us from simulating TMs. 19:28:34 so that should be easy for him... 19:28:46 he's just a hack. 19:28:51 "if he could just sit down and talk normally it could be really interesting" => I have a better idea, we could just tell him some good references to read first instead, in his free time 19:28:59 what languages does he speak? 19:29:03 english. 19:29:06 maybe he can be educated if he gets good books 19:29:08 only? 19:29:26 seems to be. 19:29:36 he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image. 19:30:23 "what i do dislike is being so vague about it in the process" => yes, so let's just ignore what he says and send him to read books 19:31:01 "he's also vehemently active on Wikipedia to preserve his own self-image." => does he just make an autobiography page with no references, or does he also add reasonable references, like articles accepted by respected journals or something? 19:31:14 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ACarl_Hewitt%2FArchive_2 19:31:21 also, I'd ask which language of wikipedia, but if he only reads English, then it's sort of obvious 19:31:34 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carl_Hewitt 19:31:45 ah, currently deleted. good 19:32:23 he's such a crank.. 19:32:41 then it's not worth worrying about, at least as an esolanger, since the wikipedians already see the problem and delete his autobio article. I don't care if he writes some angry messages, people are good enough to ignore those. 19:33:04 he's uploaded to arxiv too. 19:33:08 you'd only have to worry if he managed to get his autobiography page contain the inflated claims and remain there. 19:33:10 if you read back I went over his paper. 19:33:34 I'd like to say it was a brief cursory reading but there wasn't much in there. the bibliography was half of it. 19:33:52 the real challenge for carl hewitt is to find a page that doesn't have a quote from somebody else on it. 19:33:58 imode: meh, so what. everyone knows arxiv can contain preprints, and that you can change the metadata later to indicate which journal has accepted the article, with a full reference, that people can then check in the journal 19:34:35 https://arxiv.org/abs/0812.4852 I want you to read this. 19:34:40 if he uploads some nonsense to arxiv, I wouldn't worry about. if he spams arxiv, arxiv probably has a way to deal with it 19:34:46 imode: I really don't have the time, sorry 19:34:52 I can read the abstract 19:35:11 ohoho, if you can find the time, read it. it's worth your while. 19:35:14 jesus, that's not an abstract for an article. what's this, a full book? 19:35:25 it's 104 pages of pure unadulterated bullshit. 19:35:37 imode: certainly not today for the 104 pages. and I don't think I will ever find the time for that, sorry. 19:35:46 it's okay. half of them are the bibliography. 19:35:46 wow, 102 revisions so far 19:36:21 (in reality, a third of them are. the other third are the actual paper, which is mostly quotes, and the appendices, which are also mostly quotes.) 19:37:52 int-e: I'd love to get a friggin' diff because I can't imagine anything of substance was changed. 19:37:59 imode: great, the abstract really seems to say that his model is uncomputable 19:38:59 imode: it's PDF-only, so diffing will almost certainly be difficult 19:39:07 he doesn't upload whatever was the source of the PDF 19:39:11 yeah. 19:39:43 "my god there's more quotes than self-authored material." => wow 19:40:44 "okay the bibliography is half as long as the paper" => that happens, but for a 104 page long paper it's unusual. but he has to source all those quotes he has, right? 19:41:07 yeah, that's my point. 19:41:19 the number of quotes is equal to the number of bibliography entries... 19:42:17 my record, out of a total of 4 scientific articles, not counting conference procedings and conference slides (for they usually don't have a full bibliography) is 19:43:27 an article with 53 references on 4 pages, plus 11 pages of body, plus a page for abstract and a title page. this is in the preprint, the journal's version has less whitespace around the title I think. 19:44:35 I'm too lazy to check the journal final version, but I think it also has close to 53 bibliographic references 19:44:56 it's formatted differently so the page numbers are entirely different 19:45:37 but it's a journal that I think exists printed, or at least is formatted as if it existed printed, so the formatting is compact with a small page and narrow margins and all that stuff 19:46:40 I don't recall, but I think they even do that age old nonsense where they forcibly put the paper author names as initial plus surname format, because THAT would take up too much space in a mathematical paper 19:47:00 (this isn't a physics/biology journal with 100+ member teams sending in articles) 19:47:10 and might reformat the bibliography too, I dunno 19:47:17 some journals are so backwards 19:47:18 The argument that actors are more powerful than non-deterministic Turing machines is quite ridiculous to me. (I see no useful difference between a machine that is guaranteed to terminate but can take an arbitrary long time for that, and a machine that terminates with probability 1) 19:47:35 I might be mixing it up with another journal 19:48:34 int-e: there is probably no computational difference for decision problems (but not for problems that require a random output obviously), except possibly a polynomial overhead, but maths is very far from being able to prove that, 19:49:00 it's like a major result that might take quarter as much time or twice as much time as P!=NP from now 19:49:19 and that's just a guess 19:50:08 "Mathematics self proves its own consistency." -- assuming completeness. 19:50:36 it's like hilbert, but on meth. 19:50:45 "I've seen crank mathematics (George Spencer Brown, Hofstader, the time cube guy lmao)" => wait what? 19:51:03 what do you take issue with with that statement. 19:51:11 Hofstadter barely wrote any crank mathematics, most of his book is fiction, and the maths part is not perfect but not crank either; 19:51:32 I regard him as a crank because like Hewitt he fails to produce anything of actual value. 19:51:43 and the time cube guy is a crank but I don't think he has any mathematics on his page, though I haven't read the whole page I admit; 19:51:58 imode: you should give some credit to being substantially correct 19:51:59 a post on HN summarized my feelings on the book. 19:52:09 and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter 19:52:20 https://blog.infinitenegativeutility.com/2018/7/why-i-dont-love-godel-escher-bach 19:52:38 imode: I'm not saying you should love the book. you can hate it. but it's not crank mathematics. 19:52:43 you can hate it for lots of other reasons 19:52:55 I suggest reading that if you want a synonymous opinion. 19:53:24 he might have crank philosophy, and most useless but mostly correct mathematics, and fiction, in the same book 19:53:57 I classify him as a crank because he doesn't bring anything of merit to the table, and what explanations he tries to give fall short of actually conveying anything useful. 19:54:16 if you want crank mathematics, I can give better examples. t'Hooft's physics stuff, Wolfram's physics stuff, both based on bad mathematics and physics 19:54:20 or do you not count physics? 19:54:25 ohoho I count physics. 19:54:30 wolfram's a nut. 19:54:32 imode: yes, he might be a crank, but not crank mathematics 19:54:44 imode: he has crank stuff and useless mathematics in the same book 19:54:58 and fiction that some of us actually find enjoyable 19:55:03 look, let me explain something 19:55:20 I'm surprised you take such offense. 19:55:52 in some universities, a small amount of people graduate but the university people knows that he's dangerous if he gets out in the outer world. this happens most often in medical university, but can happen in maths too. 19:56:03 it's not going to really change my view on hofstader. 19:56:29 in those cases, a good solution is to convince the guy to remain as a professor or researcher in the university or some other uni or research place, and pay him for not doing real world work. 19:56:39 and yes, I know of the "my supervisor's keeper" clause. ;) 19:57:05 the students and professors in the university quickly recognize that he's a crank professor, and take his lectures as a joke. 19:57:09 the time cube guy does lots of math 19:57:24 none of it is logical or makes any sense, but apparently he thought there was a proof in there? 19:57:32 that's not dangerous, because the students in the university aren't harmed much by having a useless class the don't attend and get an easy A 19:57:35 listen, you're just not living in 5D. 19:57:55 I think "crank" is the wrong term, which I would like to reserve for people who invent their own crazy theories. 19:58:05 starting to think so too. 19:58:14 on the other hand, if the same person got out in the real world to patients, he would damage the health of many of his patients before the patient catches on that he's a bad doctor. some patient catches on, but some don't, or not quickly enough. 19:58:18 but it just feels like the right term. 19:58:46 this system doesn't catch everyone, and there are still bad doctors out there for various reasons, but some doctors are stopped this way. 19:59:01 they're paid from state tuition, like the crank doctor would be payed, so it's all the same. 19:59:26 so what's the overarching point tho. 19:59:28 imode: what's the 5D about? time cube? 19:59:32 yeah lmao. 19:59:37 was in response to Hooloovo0. 19:59:51 yeah, but I also claimed that he doesn't do maths 19:59:53 http://web.archive.org/web/20070927220333/http://www.lib.hcu.edu.tw/journal/files/CAS/CAS0206.pdf 19:59:53 maybe I'm wrong 20:00:06 is a kind of weird read 20:00:13 I didn't recognize any of what he did as maths, but maybe I'm not imaginative or haven't read enough crank math 20:00:25 it didn't seem to be intended as math to my eyes 20:00:34 not even as much as Wolfram's 20:00:44 imode: And just to be clear and can totally understand hating his book(s)... I'm not sure I could read GEB these days. I liked it as a late teenager. 20:00:53 -!- woodface has joined. 20:01:31 -!- woodface has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:01:37 I guess Hofstader shouldn't be classified as a crank. 20:01:44 I think I just saw it as all meaningless statements that are trying to motivate people to do something, that is, politics, although a rather bad attempt at that 20:01:51 just somebody who really shouldn't be that notable. 20:01:52 fake celebrity, I guess? 20:02:24 when a politician talks about global warming and what he wants to do about it, I don't think he's talking physics. I take it as talking politics, with physics jargon because that's what politicians do if it helps them. 20:03:14 my default is that politics talk is mostly meaningless, and I have to leave it to politologists to read everything and figure out what the guy will actually do, 20:04:01 and then either blog about that in a meaningful way, without the political talk nonsense, like saying that he believes if this politician is elected, he'll build more nuclear power plants, or whatever 20:04:48 and then he blogs about it, or publishes in politology journals if he feels like he needs grants, and tells it to journalists who generally distort the whole thing and tell it on news websites 20:05:06 and of course he can be factually wrong about his predictions, even consistently if he's a bad politologist 20:05:33 I'm gonna be honest, I've only skimmed the time cube guy's page. 20:05:36 but so what? my aim isn't to become a better politologist than the ones I can read if I really want to know who to elect or when to leave the country 20:05:58 imode: some years ago I read a few pages (it's text with huge font, mind you) 20:06:06 (I think I actually zoomed it out, rare with a webpage) 20:06:21 there's still a copy linked from wikipedia if you want 20:06:25 or an extract in the wisdome 20:06:32 `? time cube 20:06:32 lmao, I've had my fill of crank shit today. 20:06:33 EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH. Bible A Lie & Word Is Lies. Navel Connects 4 Corner 4s. God Is Born Of A Mother - She Left Belly B. Signature. Your dirty lying teachers use only the midnight to midnight 1 day (ignoring 3 other days) Time to not foul (already wrong) bible time. Lie that corrupts earth you educated stupid fools. 20:06:56 admittedly, I wrote that, so it could be biased to what I want to imply about him 20:06:59 I want a shirt that says "Educated Stupid". 20:07:29 anyway, he's very bad even as a politician, and I don't think he managed to achieve anything other than making a meme 20:07:33 @quote lambda.cube 20:07:33 No quotes match. Maybe you made a typo? 20:08:02 I don't think he got any of what he actually asks people to do in that, like killing your teachers or whatever it was 20:08:11 no, that wasn't it 20:08:13 um 20:08:13 like I said, you just need to step back into the fifth dimension. 20:08:22 all will make sense when things stop making sense. 20:09:17 uh, there are science fantasy films about the fifth dimension. there's even a really good one: the Phineas and Ferb movie (I'm not sure about its title) 20:09:25 I can look up the title if you care 20:09:27 it was a joke. 20:09:30 but you'll find it anyway 20:09:35 I know, but since it's a good film 20:09:37 only problem is 20:09:54 it's a better film if you watch enough of the show first to know the general setting and characters 20:10:06 so it's not a film I recommend watching first if you haven't yet watched the show 20:10:21 but if you have watched the show, even just like half a season of it, any random half a season, then it's good 20:11:04 like, you have to know who all the main characters are and their basic relationships, because in the film there isn't enough introduction and everything changes because of a catastrophe they have to fix 20:11:14 and it works MUCH better if you already know the original situation 20:11:31 Dear Carl, just adding the modifier "Inconsistency-robust" to the names of the elements of a more or less standard sequent calculus does not make it paraconsistent. In particular, you have enough rules to prove p /\ -p |- q /\ -q. 20:11:33 but the TV series is good too, although not everyone is a target audience 20:11:35 * int-e has read enough. 20:11:49 int-e: that's exactly the conclusion I came to. 20:12:02 there's nothing of substance.. 20:12:45 it's a show that doesn't take itself seriously, with not much logical consistency and much more emphasis on the character's motivations, and then just not caring if what they do makes sense even in a fantasy world, 20:13:28 sort of like Harry Potter or Star Wars, but much less serious time and much more jokes and whole episodes played for fun, while the character motivations are still consistent (except when they're mind-controlled etc) 20:14:03 but if you like those types of media, then I recommen Phineas & Ferb 20:14:32 I'm saying this in the wrong place 20:14:46 let me quickly copy-paste it to another forum where more people listen 20:15:22 actually, I should only copy it and make a blog post from it to its blog 20:15:35 some day 20:18:16 imode: Actually I might still enjoy GEB. I just have to skip the formal parts :P 20:18:52 The perfect record player plot was cute. 20:19:04 int-e: the problem is I have an implicit assumption going in: that all the romance talk is going to lead up to an eventual climax: some actual fucking. 20:19:10 int-e: Was it? 20:19:23 shachaf: it ... resonated with me. 20:19:26 What about a record player that has two disassembly components, where each one can disassemble the other one? 20:19:38 I don't think I'll read the GEB review, sorry. I've read it, I like it, and since I'm a mathematician I think I did realize that the mathematics part doesn't add anything I didn't know from better sources, and the DNA stuff was pure useless nonsense. 20:19:40 I felt like there were all sorts of reasonable objections that weren't raised. 20:19:54 hofstader just kinda tells you the shit he's gonna do you, and then dines-and-dashes. 20:20:29 imode: there is a climax. it's not fucking, and it's not anything you learn about science. it's a climax in the fiction parts, and a decent one at that. 20:20:38 shachaf: thank you. the point of an analogy is to draw direct comparisons as a gateway to knowledge. 20:20:48 not, like, what you get from your favourite fiction author, but still a decent one. 20:20:53 `? quine 20:20:54 ​`? quine 20:21:02 `quote LAMBDA 20:21:02 102) Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 331) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] I need to learn more Haskell... ..I need to get op privs. \ 409) rest in peace lambdabot???? monqy: it'll probably be back later nap in peace \ 494) monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [... 20:21:06 wob_jonas: if I wanted fiction I'd read fiction, not something masking itself as nonfiction. 20:21:07 hm 20:21:44 if you read it with the expectation that it will be like Smullyan's books, that teach you some actual mathematics in the climax, then it's a flop 20:21:49 but that shouldn't be your expectation 20:22:06 what should be my expectation of a book that tells me it's about the real world. 20:22:11 he's not Smullyan, he's just a long-time friend 20:22:25 imode: well, obviously it depends 20:22:26 by the way RIP Smullyan, I'll be missing you 20:22:48 like, you can defend this all you want, it's not going to change the fact that it shouldn't be held up on a pedestal like it currently is. 20:23:00 imode: come on, half of it was dialogs that are obviously fantastic fiction. why'd you read it as non-fiction? was it the Smullyan expectation? 20:23:17 did you seriously expect that there's anyone else who's as good as Smullyan in the exact same genre? 20:23:31 didn't Smullyan's, you know, reputation get to you? 20:23:34 no, it's that dialogues are intended to expound on something. 20:23:40 if you read it with that expectation, I'm sorry 20:23:47 then I can understand you didn't like it 20:24:05 they're used as an investigative tool. and I don't feel Hofstader gave me any sort of conclusion. 20:24:10 imode: no, they were fun. that's how I read most fiction books too. it's rare that I can learn something from them. 20:24:12 other than talking lavishly about... a lot of nothing. 20:24:23 listen, you're trying to defend a book you like, I get that. 20:24:38 you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao. 20:24:51 sorry if you took offense to what I've been saying. 20:25:06 there's even clearly fiction books that do have a message (or Aesop if you want) but the message is one I don't like, yet I read the fiction book and actually enjoyed it, because I enjoyed the style and characters and decent writing, and ignored the message 20:26:39 my final thoughts are that you can't take a book parading itself as nonfiction and judge it as a work of fiction in order to praise what you think are good aspects about it in order to avoid negative judgements. 20:26:51 on that, afk. 20:27:00 the specific book that was most like that is Julie Bertagna, Exodus 20:28:02 "you're not going to change what I've said or what I will say lmao" => ok, if you don't want to talk about it, I can stop. but sometimes, when I talk on the internet with people I actually know about works that one of us enjoyed more than the other, 20:28:36 and we tell what we liked and what we didn't, the end result is that I get to enjoy the work better, especially if I then re-read or rewatch the same work with the conversation in mind. 20:28:51 it doesn't always work, because sometimes the work still doesn't work for me (sorry for the pun) 20:29:16 I do this a lot for TV series episodes of My Little Pony: FIM, but I think it works for other fiction too, which is why I'm trying 20:29:22 if you don't want to listen, then I can stop 20:29:36 imode: ? 20:30:32 and I think it paraded itself as pop nonfiction at worst, and I already knew not to expect much from pop nonfiction by then, 20:31:18 because when I was young, I read a lot of children's pop nonfiction books, and I liked them, but when I grew up and learned about the world, I realized that most of those pop nonfiction books were actually really bad, if you take them at face value 20:31:36 most primary school textbooks also are, by the way 20:31:45 for similar reasons 20:39:07 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:54:42 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:02:05 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:04:12 -!- bmos has joined. 21:04:52 -!- lambdabot has joined. 21:05:24 -!- bmos has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:08:28 wob_jonas: oh you’ve watched P & F too 21:08:31 -!- aloril has joined. 21:08:57 arseniiv: most of it 21:09:03 not all episodes 21:09:12 I'm missing some mostly from the later seasons 21:09:30 but there are a lot of good episodes I've watched three or more times 21:10:15 arseniiv: what does "too" mean? have you watched P & F? or is it that I watched practically all MLP and most of P & F too? 21:16:36 BTW have anybody watched my vid? 21:18:47 wob_jonas: have you watched P & F? => this one 21:22:35 arseniiv: I haven't seen the link 21:22:40 can you please post the link again? 21:22:44 also on ways of treating art: I had gained much when I started not to skip parts that seem boring. With good authors, it really pays later, I’d come to thing 21:23:05 I appreciate you training handwriting by the way. we need more online lectures on that. 21:23:10 absoutely can, here it is: https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c 21:23:37 arseniiv: I know. I love typography and calligraphy, both restricted to the recent European subset 21:23:44 thank you, but you better watch it first, I’m afraid it’s too messy 21:24:19 sure, I'm thanking the attempt in first place. if you fail, it might still push others to make a better video if I tell them that this is the best you could get. 21:25:28 let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Illustrations_to_J%C3%A1nos_Arany%27s_ballads_by_Mih%C3%A1ly_Zichy 21:25:55 (you can also buy it on dead tree if you're in Hungary) 21:26:28 wob_jonas: oh, I have a friend who for some time does calligraphy as a hobby, it’s interesting, and he even promised to write a page of text from Summa Logicae somewhere in the future :) 21:26:55 arseniiv: I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end? 21:27:19 Summa Logicae => in what language is that? 21:28:06 I am not interested in learning calligraphy myself anymore, I am more interested in doing typography myself, it's just that I appreciate both 21:28:20 I just want to learn the basics of handwriting in Russian for the reasons I had told you 21:28:42 I know the basics of Hungarian handwriting 21:29:27 wob_jonas: let me point to this great example of calligraphy (and also great drawing) from 1898 by Zichy Mihály => ah, thanks! Really appeals to the eyes, and I haven’t seen this style before. I’ll show these to my friend 21:29:45 I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end? => as you wish 21:30:31 arseniiv: is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online 21:30:48 I don't know of any other pieces of calligraphy he's done available online though. 21:30:50 in what language is that? => latin, it’s by William [of] Ockham 21:31:01 ok 21:33:23 I'd really have liked if he added "A hamis tanú" and "A kép-mutogató" to that series, but alas, he didn't, and he's dead since 1906. 21:33:35 is it the calligraphy or the drawing you like? if the drawing, you can find more examples of his drawing, because his works (or at least most of them) are in public domain now, and many of them are available online => I didn’t concentrated on drawings yet, but yes they at least match the handwriting 21:34:50 The best we could get is to commission a really good painter-forger and a really good calligrapher-forger to make those imitating his style, but such a comission would cost more than a car in my estimate, and I don't think there'd be enough backers on a crowdforging site and I don't have the money myself, so I haven't even tried to ask a price quot 21:34:50 e. 21:36:10 they at least match the handwriting => yes, it's by the same hand, and from the same volumes composed together. I think he actually drew the letters overlapping the images on the original. 21:37:26 and I think the original 1989 volume wasn't even made with the easy modern photographic technique that can copy basically any drawing in high fidelity, he had to do it the hard way, with whatever the one of the other two methods were for this than etching back then (it's not etching) 21:38:00 oh 21:38:35 the modern reprint, of course, uses digital photography and digital printing, but since it's in a high enough quality (you can see the printed dot pattern if you zoom in, I scanned in 600 dpi to avoid most of the Moiré), I don't mind 21:39:59 I could get on-site access to the original edition in libraries, and in fact had seen two of the four volumes earlier, but it would be hard and expensive to get them to photograph it (it's an old book so libraries won't scan, they'll only photograph), 21:41:04 I chose the cheap solution and bought a throwaway copy of the reprint, I destroyed it with my heart bleading on destroying a copy of such a beautiful book while I cut open the binding and actually cut into many pages during. 21:41:31 (the last couple of minutes I think I think shallowly. You tell interesting things and I can’t properly respond to them) 21:41:37 In retrospect, most of that wouldn't have been necessary, I would only have had to remove the outer hard cover to be able to scan, but I didn't realize that back then. 21:41:59 Would have destroyed the book anyway, so it doesn't matter much in the end. 21:42:31 this is 21:42:45 It's not entirely destroyed, since that would have made scanning impossible, all the single pages are still intact, so I can read it carefully at home. 21:43:07 And if that weren't so, I could buy a new copy. The reprint is cheap (around 6000 HUF) for what it's worth. 21:43:33 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 21:43:45 But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise. 21:43:54 (I can’t write properly, sorry) 21:44:06 But all that plus the cost of scanning plus my time was totally worth IMO for sharing a digitized version with all the world, many of whom wouldn't even hear about this book otherwise. => totally agree 21:44:23 I hope some of them will buy a copy of the reprint so they have a print copy, thus supporting the publisher to whom I owe a big thanks for reprinting this. 21:44:52 maybe I should scan something thin and softcover if I find out it’s rare and interesting 21:45:05 The reprint is from 2016, so they actually did the expensive digitizing process in a much more professional way then I could have payed for. I would not have done that. 21:45:47 arseniiv: I have suggestions. Where do you live? 21:46:56 There are two Jules Verne books with beautiful illustrations by Jules-Descartes Férat (1829–1906) engraved by Charles Barbant (1844—1922) 21:47:37 They're in public domain and there are reprint version available, at least in Hungary, usually together with the bad old public domain translations. 21:48:06 -!- onur4 has joined. 21:48:13 There are low resolution scans of them online already, but no good high res ones. 21:48:23 I'm working on it, but if you want to speed it up, I'd appreciate it. 21:48:46 The books aren't technically thin, but if you only scan the etchings, not the text, then it's not many pages. 21:48:51 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:48:52 -!- onur4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:49:08 You'll need a decent scanner. I used a copy shop one, which isn't perfect, but is cheap. 21:49:41 There's a professional service for this, but I don't want to cough the money up for that yet, except for a few very valuable family photos that they can scan better than I could. 21:50:07 (I'm also scanning family photos for my family, not for publishing. Different project, but can do with same trip sometimes.) 21:51:11 There's no need to scan the text of any Verne, most public domain translations and all originals are already not only scanned but digitized to text and proofread and published. 21:51:29 The exception were if any happened to go out of copyright around now, but I don't know of any such translation. 21:52:09 hm, I didn’t think that far. I’m in Russia in a more or less big city, and for these books it’s possible to be in the library somewhere near (though I doubt it, maybe in Moscow or St. Petersburg, I’m far from these), but I can’t say I’m into libraries and I had never scanned a book 21:52:39 If you make anything publishable and in public domain, please either publish to Wikimedia Commons, or ping me or them after you publish so I can upload it to there. 21:52:53 I can help in the uploading and metadata on Commons if you want. 21:53:16 Also, if you can, ping me in advance if you do it with this specific case, so we don't do redundant work. 21:53:53 But only do this if it actually causes you pleasure. Nobody will compensate you by money for this, unless you somehow solve that yourself. 21:54:04 And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it. 21:54:09 Not every art is your style. 21:54:36 This one is just my favourite etcher. 21:55:19 wob_jonas: okay! I doubt I could help with this case, but thanks for both offers 21:55:32 wob_jonas: And even then, it's not worth if you don't actually like it. => agree 21:56:27 Commons already has a copy of all the low res scans by http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , a site that honors Jules Verne's books *original* illustrations (rather than the crap some publishers put in in 2050 to 2000, when the photographing tech wasn't yet cheap or possible at all, or the original drawing wasn't yet out of copyright, and they couldn't 21:56:27 get their hands on the original etch master plates. 21:56:57 I think the old translations around 1900 actually borrowed the original plates of etching, which is real impressive. 21:57:20 By the way, some of them, including the one I already published, uses the original plates but messed up the printing process, so the drawings come out too dark and some details are invisible. 21:58:00 I have scans of half of the drawings of this same book (Indes Noires) from another edition (the Szegő György translation) waiting on my hard drive to edit and publish. 21:58:38 Also, I should really make more backups of my hard disk, although I think I have a single backup of those scans. 21:59:02 Ok, I should finish ranting and watch that video like I promised. 21:59:09 :) 21:59:56 But really, look at http://jv.gilead.org.il/rpaul/ , you might find an illustrator and etcher whose style you prefer over Jules-Descartes Férat and Charles Barbant 22:00:05 I can't claim that they're objectively the best 22:00:19 it’s very nice to read your “ranting”, I should say 22:00:43 Yes, but I never get to watch the video. It's already past midnight and I should work tomorrow and I'm already on like -4 hours sleep. 22:00:46 maybe -6 hours. 22:01:02 maybe you expect too much of silly me, though :D 22:01:05 And I wanted to do other things today too, but don't we always? 22:01:17 arseniiv: I want to give feedback. 22:01:21 Repeat my old question: 22:01:42 I'll watch it now. can I give commentary as the video goes, or should I hold it all until the end? 22:01:58 as I said, as you wish :) 22:02:16 Is there supposed to be any sound? 22:02:26 no 22:03:25 also, it’s almost half a hour, and I’m personally going to sleep, so you could technically watch it tomorrow, I absolutely don’t mind 22:04:14 no need to hurry 22:04:27 you can logread 22:04:32 I'm riled up now 22:04:34 and good night! 22:04:42 yeah, I’ll definitely read 22:04:55 "privet!" I think. I'm not sure that's a p, but a p would make sense. 22:05:06 correct 22:05:15 well, see you later 22:05:42 (I have to learn to read this too, if I want to write it for myself.) 22:08:26 "Aplê..." let me get those drawings from yesterday 22:09:37 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 22:09:59 that looks more like a "p" though. what's the deal with the "p" in "privet!"? 22:11:58 what do you mean by "what's the deal" with the "п" in "привет!"? 22:12:09 ah, "Aplêičau" 22:12:41 int-e: in the video, it looks strange. and this is a video demonstrating a consistent form of handwriting, so if it were strange, ar' would have edited it out 22:12:51 so I think there's something I don't understand there. 22:13:00 It doesn't look like a "P" either. 22:13:13 (I would think it's derived from π not p) 22:13:27 sorry for using the ISO-9 transcription by the way, I don't have an easy way to type the russian characters, but I can type these easily 22:13:27 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:13:30 -!- aloril has joined. 22:13:57 int-e: yes, but there's a normal shaped p right in "Aplêičau" on the next slide 22:13:58 same for the russian Р vs grrek Ρ. 22:14:07 *greek 22:14:22 * int-e isn't going to watch any video now. 22:14:25 yes yes, I know. The russian r looks somewhat like the latin p. I know that. 22:15:32 The context is, I know the russian alphabet, I just want to learn how to handwrite it, because it annoys me that I can't jot down russian names in notes, and I'm using ISO-9 transcription handwritten instead, which works but hurts me inside. 22:16:02 And arseniiv volunteered to teach the handwriting he learned, because he agreed there are no good enough tutorials on the internet. 22:16:24 I don't expect his video to be perfect, but he won't just leave a bad letter in there. 22:16:44 He said he edits the video, so he would have replaced any obviously bad parts, so I refuse that explanation. 22:17:21 Ah no, it's "Aplêjčau", you write the brevis after the rest, I paused too soon. That even sounds more like a word. 22:17:49 int-e: does that make sense? 22:18:31 the "cursive" column from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_alphabet matches what I remember.\ 22:18:47 I have no clue what "Aplêjčau" is. 22:19:00 int-e: ar' gave better links yesterday: https://www.reddit.com/r/russian/comments/69mcom/%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%BA%D0%B2%D1%8B_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE/ https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/9d/4a/9f9d4aa8e31eadcd2f4dfc44d23dd9f6.jpg 22:19:26 both are images in HTML 22:19:30 or pure images 22:19:32 I dunno 22:19:33 not videos 22:19:43 my guess is Appalachian mountains, in America 22:19:52 but that's just a guess, I didn't check a dictionary 22:19:57 I don't care 22:20:01 STUPID Firefox... when I make a selection in my terminal, please follow X standards and forget your own selection so that I can actually paste what I marked?!?! 22:20:39 (Referencing the drawings for the "B" word too.) 22:21:52 "Betel'gejze" I think 22:22:31 nice mousewriting, I couldn't draw such a continuous line with a mouse 22:22:51 or very nice video editing to hide the jumps 22:24:55 "Veneciâ" 22:26:14 "Gimalai" more mountains, although this one has a strange spelling, ending in "ai" 22:27:07 "Daniâ" 22:28:26 "Enisej" the river in Russia, right? 22:28:49 -!- ajvpot5 has joined. 22:30:20 shachaf, there will be no olist this past Monday, but there will be one earlier today. 22:31:22 "Ëtunžejt" and you write the diaresis and the brevis in the Right^{TM} order, not the French order. good. they haven't infected your education with that nonsense yet. 22:32:40 "Ženeva" 22:33:07 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ap_Lei_Chau is Аплєйчау 22:33:13 * int-e shrugs 22:33:36 -!- ajvpot5 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:33:50 int-e: ok 22:34:50 "Zanzibar", we're at the capital letters that are hard to write now. 22:35:02 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 22:35:43 (I don't mean "I" of course. that's an easy one.) 22:36:23 "Iguasu" perhaps? 22:37:01 (well, for me that is, because it's the same as a latin "U" would be in this style) 22:40:12 "Jiglava" it looks like 22:40:28 but I could be confusing letters of course 22:41:26 another hard letter. "Kël'n" 22:43:24 another hard one (it looks easy, but I'm sure it's hard to write in a way that I can read it unambiguously too) "Labraziâ" wait, you lifted your pen during that "r" I think 22:43:44 we'll see later in the video if that's how "r" is supposed to work, I guess 22:45:56 "Merkurij" and I think this time you didn't lift your pen during either "r", but you did during "k", which looks more reasonable. Also, that's a scary example name to me. 22:46:44 ah yes. the lower case "n" does look hard, good thing you wrote it three times here. 22:47:17 "Nil" three letters? I feel shortcharged for my no money :-) 22:48:07 Is the first lowercase "o" the final form? 22:49:18 if so, that's interesting, in Hungarian if I write proper cursive, I always use the second form for a top connection or final, and an entirely different form of "o" for the low connection 22:49:47 so not even "o" is the same in russian and latin? no, I can't believe that. it's probably just different in different styles of cursive. 22:49:55 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:50:39 -!- moei has joined. 22:50:42 "Oblako Oorta" 22:51:05 (placenames can be strange) 22:51:31 "Palau" easy 22:51:41 well, easy because your mousewriting is really good 22:52:31 I won't be able to read a word of my own handwriting at first, I think, so there's a cost for the ideal 22:53:01 I might have to do multiple tries of the same word each time and an ISO-9 transcription too so I can read it back 22:53:20 which is ugly, but a step towards the goal I'll never reach 22:53:43 since I intend to spend my practice time on cubing, not russian writing 22:53:47 most of it at least 22:55:06 "Rodiniâ" but I'm not sure in this one 22:56:13 "Salnce" I think. 22:56:25 Ok, I'll stop the video here and continue to watch the rest some other time 22:56:28 because it's too late 22:56:35 but it's nice so far 22:57:02 I'll probably have to rewatch it too after I watch the whole thing, to notice more stuff about the letters 22:57:52 thank you very much so far, aarseniv (and I hope you can figure out which comments are for you and which for int-e) 22:58:57 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rodinia_reconstruction.jpg 22:59:46 in case you can't read ISO-9, which is quite possible since you need that stuff to find books or get information about books in library catalogs in Hungary and many other countries where library catalogs use latin letter transcriptions for literally everything 23:00:48 it's a bit strange, because in Hungary, probably more people could read the printed cyrillic than the ISO-9 transcription, but perhaps it's a tradition from when they don't have russian typewriters for library catalog slips 23:01:06 wob_jonas: not sure whether this is directed at me, but the ISO-9 is really confusing to me 23:01:24 int-e: no, that's directed at aarseniv mostly 23:02:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 23:02:59 so, aarseniv (but int-e too if you care), if you can't read ISO-9, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9 has a full table comprising the cyrillic letters in most languages that use them, and 23:04:35 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Russian#Transliteration_table has a table for Russian alphabet only (plus obsolate letters in bottom rows), look at the column with heading "ISO9:1995; GOST 2002(A)" 23:04:47 you want this second one for the Russian I type 23:05:45 note that if "Я" is transliterated anything but "Â" then you're looking at the wrong column. That one is very important for the library catalogs, and appears in my transcripts too obviously 23:07:11 It is good that libraries use this sane system, because the ones that use "Ja" for that and "j" and "a" for other letters are a bit annoying to say the least, and so are the ones that use "ya" and "y" and "a" respectively 23:08:20 Except obviously there have to be standards for printing these passports that always have your name in ascii letters, but that's not what a library catalog transcription aims for 23:12:40 Stupid anecdote: there are also cyrillization systems, to transcribe latin to a local alphabet. When I was in Macedonia, back before they were full EU members so they had a bit stricter rules for visitors, I changed cash from I don't know what currency to the local currency. 23:14:27 The cash converting agent was required to give me a printed receipt that includes my name as it appears in the passport. My name has a Hungarian "zs", which he transcribed to macedonian as "ЗС", which was probably by the transcription rules he used, but looked riddiculous to me. 23:14:48 It obviously doesn't matter what he writes to the receipt, which is why I said it was a stupid anecdote. 23:15:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:15:31 ISO-9 is Russian-centric, so Russian transcribed with it actually looks relatively good, but most other languages transcribed with ISO-9 look horrible. 23:16:25 Luckily in library book catalogs in *Hungary*, it is much more common to find Russian names or titles than names or titles from other languages, because of the effects of the Soviet Union suppressing a lot of local languages, 23:17:57 Very rarely you can find books in Ukranian or Croatian or Belarussian, with title presumably in those languages, but I don't look at the title much so it doesn't matter. I have yet to see a Macedonian one. 23:18:46 I think I've also seen ones marked as Serbo-Croatian. 23:19:16 I think Serbian is usually not transcribed by ISO-9, but by serbian latin, which happen to coincide in all except one letter the serbian "j" 23:19:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:19:44 um no, they don't coincide of course 23:19:55 but they never clash other than at the serbian "j" 23:20:36 -!- aloril has joined. 23:20:43 but the clash is only a theoretical problem, and not being able to automatically decide which words are transcriptions from what language is a much more serious theoretical problem 23:20:46 good night now 23:21:27 (or, technically, from which group of languages using the same transcription system, including identity for all latin letter languages as the transcription system) 23:22:14 And if Chinese or Japanese transcription is involved, you're in even more trouble 23:22:32 You can't even automatically untranscribe that, although there are pretty good approximation algorithms now 23:24:23 Apart from transcribing between different countries of kanji, I have heard of only two transcription systems that promise to transcribe most Japanese texts to a limited alphabet, 23:25:34 and both are systems for extended Japanese braille methods for transcribing kanji, and one I've only seen as vague descriptions, for the other I've seen somewhat extended descriptions (I never sought a full list) and it seems nicely done except that it's REALLY fucking crowded with practically zero redundancy 23:26:36 It translates to backwards 8-point braille, where the two extra dots are *above* the normal six dots, which I don't think is used anywhere other than this one system, and doesn't even have a Unicode encoding. 23:27:19 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braille_kanji by the way 23:27:53 Uses the extra upper two dots only to mark kanji, with the upper left set at the first cell that encodes a kanji and the upper right set for the last cell. 23:28:48 Each kanji has at most one encoding (luckily) which can be one cell, two cells, three cells, I don't know the upper limit, tries to be somewhat mnemonic, but the one and two cell spaces are REALLY crowded, giving no redundancy in kanji 23:31:46 and normal braille kanji is already so crowded that literally all 64 possible six-point cells are used to mean something, and even this way it needs extra cells to mark dakuten and switches to and from katakana and to arabic digits and to romaji 23:32:08 and there's some even more horrible hacks that I think I erased from my memory 23:32:47 yet this system, if it actually lives up to its promises, would be a very good base for a faithful transcription system of Japanese to latin script (with punctuations) 23:33:06 but as far as I know, there is no such transcription system 23:33:53 it could also be used as base for a transcription system from Japanese to a funny script that's made of kana-only plus overbars for indicating kana that stand for kanji, plus some punctuation 23:34:55 the kana part and simple japanese punctuation would be identity-transformed, and the kanji transcription could be typed on a keyboard or transmitted through morse code or signal flags or teletype or 23:36:00 with an automatic transcription, make it easier for European people to read digital Japanese texts with kanji or handwrite them without having to learn the calligraphy, although that one is probably so taboo that nobody would attempt to popularize it 23:36:07 well, not in this century at least 23:36:14 still, I can dream, right? 23:37:15 I mean, transcribing kanji for the blind is a noble goal, but for all the rest they would never use such a system now 23:37:38 perhaps in a steampunk level technology fantasy world they would have developped such a system 23:38:36 because no teletypes could handle kanji directly, but the teletype operator can look up kanji in a table (that he eventually learns by heart since it's mnemonic) and transmit text with kanji faithfully, which is better than writing all telex messages with kana only 23:39:00 oh well, I said good night like a long time ago 23:39:11 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:47:21 -!- averell9 has joined. 23:53:23 -!- averell9 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:55:44 -!- boily has joined. 2018-08-08: 00:07:13 [[Register Automaton]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57270 * A * (+81) Created page with "''Register Automaton'' is a simple esolang which only has 1 instruction: @x=y?Lx" 00:12:16 [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57271&oldid=57270 * A * (+387) 00:12:40 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57272&oldid=57246 * A * (+25) 00:24:20 -!- impomatic has quit (Quit: impomatic). 00:24:40 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:24:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:30:44 @metar CYUL 00:30:45 CYUL 080000Z 24007KT 15SM FEW040 FEW075 BKN250 26/20 A2986 RMK CF1AC1CI5 CF TR AC TR SLP113 DENSITY ALT 1500FT 00:30:49 -!- aloril has joined. 00:52:34 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:46:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: RECITING CHICKEN). 02:05:34 jfc that's a wall of text 02:36:32 -!- metax has joined. 02:38:04 -!- metax has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:40:01 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:41:00 -!- aloril has joined. 02:58:10 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:09:07 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:14:01 -!- tromp has joined. 03:18:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:21:52 -!- lbft10 has joined. 03:22:29 -!- lbft10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:23:06 -!- nosbig has joined. 03:23:57 -!- nosbig has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 03:37:46 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 03:51:00 "If you never use a UNIX system, why should you care? The answer is because ActiveX is intended to be cross-platform, which means that someone running a Web browser under the Sun Solaris system (a UNIX variant) might be browsing pages you have designed. 03:53:44 "If you want to use ActiveX extensively (and who wouldn't?), you need to use an ActiveX-enabled browser, and you need to know that your users will have ActiveX-enabled browsers. At the moment, your chioces are either Microsft Internet Explorer 3.x (Explorer 2.x has limited support for more advanced ActiveX components) or Netscape Navigator plus the ActiveX plug-in from NCompass Labs. Power Mac users need a similar plug-in which is available 03:53:45 from the the beta of the ActiveX SDK." 03:54:04 -!- tromp has joined. 03:58:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:03:59 -!- MDude has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:04:27 -!- MDude has joined. 04:16:57 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 04:17:23 Sgeo: But what about the rest of the week? 04:42:50 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:48:02 -!- tromp has joined. 04:49:58 @tell wob_jonas [...] in which language Wiktionary? you can check in both the french, the english, and the native one. maybe one of them has the accents or pronunciation. <-- i'm complaining about the english. i do check the native ones when that isn't good enough. i'm not usually on the french, since i'm not fluent in it. 04:49:59 Consider it noted. 04:50:07 that was a bit long. 04:51:00 @tell wob_jonas oerjan: also, how about the Lithuanian entries? <-- i'm not sure if i've ever looked up a lithuanian word. 04:51:00 Consider it noted. 04:52:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:04:46 -!- clog has joined. 05:05:36 [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57273&oldid=23179 * A * (+143) 05:05:47 [[Talk:Home Row]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57274&oldid=57273 * A * (+1) 05:27:59 [[Register Automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57275&oldid=57271 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational Class */ no it's not 05:37:16 `addquote and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter 05:37:17 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter 05:42:07 -!- tromp has joined. 05:46:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:49:30 Dear Carl [...] <-- i was momentarily confused at seeing this just after the phineas and ferb mention... 05:52:25 you read the whole thing? impressive 05:53:13 i'm only halfway through the logs AAAAAAAAA 05:53:39 it's not MtG discussion so my instinct to skip it doesn't trigger enough 05:57:49 -!- moei has joined. 05:58:45 oerjan skips MtG discussions?! 05:58:58 but that's what this channel is all about 05:59:04 * oerjan grins evilly 06:24:07 -!- tromp has joined. 06:28:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:49:59 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57276&oldid=57267 * DMC * (-4) /* Grawlix */ 07:18:10 -!- tromp has joined. 07:22:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:34:01 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:44:07 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:54:38 -!- tromp has joined. 07:56:24 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 07:56:47 -!- sftp has joined. 08:14:26 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:14:52 -!- justanotheruser has joined. 08:15:13 -!- justanotheruser has quit (K-Lined). 08:27:18 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:32:11 -!- tromp has joined. 08:39:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:54:08 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 09:08:17 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:21:59 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:42:29 -!- robotroll has joined. 09:44:23 -!- robotroll has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:48:54 how evil 09:51:28 `? oerjan 09:51:29 Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty loud hero is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 09:51:55 `swrjan s/loud hero/evil grinch/ 09:51:57 oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 09:52:25 -!- HollyW00d27 has joined. 09:52:29 now we can ask: what is grinch mean time? 09:52:53 shachaf: grinch mean time is any time when the grinch is mean, i.e. all the time, especially around Christmas 09:54:11 what about after the grinch's heart grows 09:55:17 https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140108170556.htm 09:55:38 perhaps the grinch was mean because of an improper heart transplant? 09:57:02 -!- HollyW00d27 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:00:42 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:02:34 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 10:14:05 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:43:25 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:08:47 -!- olsner has joined. 12:02:55 -!- Inception has joined. 12:02:56 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 12:03:45 -!- Inception has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:06:12 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:15:47 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:37:36 -!- JollyRgrs2 has joined. 12:38:21 -!- JollyRgrs2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:46:25 [[Noida]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57277&oldid=57265 * Saka * (+15) 12:50:53 -!- arseniiv_ has left. 12:51:12 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:51:19 I’ve accidentally permanently deleted all notes from phone’s unsynced Google Keep :′( 12:52:00 a piece of my soul is lost 12:54:59 . o O ( It's an opportunity: lots of room for personal growth. ) 13:08:33 [[OFC]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57278 * A * (+320) Created page with "''One Function Code'' is a one-instruction turing-tarpit. Its only command is: [x]=content of register x if(r,a,b) If[#r]==0,goto line a.Else,flip[#r] and goto line b. ==Co..." 13:16:28 -!- dStruct18 has joined. 13:21:57 -!- dStruct18 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:25:08 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting). 13:28:17 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:28:58 int-e: maybe maybe 13:29:35 I want to hope I’ll remember all worthy things that were there when it will be needed 13:29:42 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:29:43 oerjan: "i'm complaining about the english [wiktionary]. i do check the native ones when that isn't good enough. i'm not usually on the french, since i'm not fluent in it." => yes, but your problem was the find the stress accenting for eg. russian or italian words. you don't need to read the meanings. french wiktionary is worth a check because it 13:29:44 's the best maintained. 13:30:31 `quote 1326 13:30:32 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter 13:30:34 I'm famous again 13:30:37 -!- FreeFull has quit (Client Quit). 13:30:56 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:31:04 how the quotes are managed? 13:31:29 `quote 13:31:29 600) Yeah, statistics with 2 data points is science. Statistics with one data point is crap. You measure a third point if you need an error estimate. 13:31:38 `quote 1 13:31:39 1) EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" 13:31:43 arseniiv: hackeso scripts to query or add or delete quotes, inherited from hackeso. backed in a simple text file 13:31:54 `quote 0 13:31:55 10) GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 20) IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! \ 30) I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary \ 34) Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? \ 40) GregorR: are you talking about eh 13:31:56 one quote per line in text file 13:32:03 just `quote gives you a random quote 13:32:18 ah so they are added manually after all 13:32:20 otherwise it gives a random searching the term you give as argument to `quote 13:32:22 yes 13:32:36 they are also transferred to that wisdom PDF file I think, occasionally 13:32:39 who and when added 1326? 13:32:42 `? pdf 13:32:43 PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format. 13:33:19 arseniiv: oerjan today. you can see from channel log or the mercurial log of the quote file in hackeso 13:33:21 `? portability 13:33:22 portability? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:33:26 ah 13:33:37 I’ve yet to read logs 13:33:45 `? ' 13:33:46 ​'? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:33:48 `? " 13:33:49 ​"? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:33:51 `? 13:33:52 ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:33:53 `' 13:33:54 788) the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september 13:33:55 `" 13:33:56 434) fizzie: i, myself, will bring an end to all. \ 747) I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". pikhq: to what? To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse. 13:33:57 `q 13:33:58 448) What is it with Cardassians, they're all really nice and then they hit you with a rock. 13:34:06 the double quote gives you two quotes 13:34:12 . o O ( A "portable" device is one that weighs 50kg or less, and fits into a suitcase. ) 13:34:28 int-e: yes, portable computers were originally like that. 13:35:04 the double quote gives you two quotes => surprisingly logical 13:35:30 `? deportable 13:35:31 deportable? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 13:35:46 int-e: except for dictionaries, where a dictionary under a kilogram is a portable one, a dictionary that fits in your pocket is a pocket one, a dictionary that weighs between a kilogram and five and has at most two volumes is a home dictionary, and a multi-volume one is a comprehensive dictionary 13:36:10 there are dictionaries which exist in pocket, portable, and home editions, the smaller ones containing a selection of words from the larger ones 13:36:40 there are very few comprehensive dictionaries per language, including the OED and the "A magyar nyelv értelmező szótára" 13:37:32 I was just writing about this in comments at http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2005-08.html%23d.2005-08-07.1066 13:37:37 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:43:29 some reactions: 13:44:46 in the video, it looks strange. and this is a video demonstrating a consistent form of handwriting, so if it were strange, ar' would have edited it out => yes, I had actually cut many fragments out, but I haven’t thought of doing a double take for this one for some reason 13:46:23 that I had meant yesterday as “messy” — I wasn’t perfectionist enough 13:47:24 wob_jonas: sorry for using the ISO-9 transcription by the way, I don't have an easy way to type the russian characters, but I can type these easily => np, it’s readable 13:48:14 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:49:51 I wasn’t perfectionist enough => sorry for that :) 13:50:27 there’s a room for v2 though 13:54:02 `whoq 1326 13:54:07 ​ addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter 13:54:08 (Unfortunately it won't work for any quote that got added before the most recent mass-`revert.) 13:54:32 `? nitia 13:54:34 nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her. 13:54:55 `whoq 1 13:54:58 ​ revert 13:55:05 right. 13:57:46 wob_jonas: "Ëtunžejt" => actually I meant Ётунхейм Jötunheimr 13:58:11 -!- Metacity26 has joined. 13:58:54 -!- Vorpal has joined. 13:59:08 -!- Vorpal has changed nick to Guest14992. 13:59:26 or very nice video editing to hide the jumps => there’s actually only a few cuts overall where I had written something horribly wrong 13:59:41 arseniiv: what are you making? 13:59:49 -!- Metacity26 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:59:59 but if my hand wasn’t sticking to the desk, the writing would be even better 14:01:03 Taneb: I had made a screencast on Russian cursive as it is taught to children in my time and (for all I see) now 14:01:42 ( https://youtu.be/cYOqMf0xw4c ) 14:02:12 Right! Not something I'm particularly interested in myself, I'm afraid, but good for you for making it! 14:02:29 I might check it out when I get home this evening 14:03:40 wob_jonas: "Labraziâ" => в should be here (Лавразия, Laurasia) 14:04:32 Also, that's a scary example name to me. => why Mercury is scary? 14:04:51 -!- Guest14992 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:05:47 Is the first lowercase "o" the final form? => AFAIR yes, the final form is a truncated low-connection form 14:07:53 your mousewriting is really good => I wish it would be better, but it’s probably a work for a tablet 14:08:54 "Rodiniâ" but I'm not sure in this one => this is correct, the second and the last former continent here 14:09:05 the last in this list 14:09:49 "Salnce" I think. => with о instead of а it will be right (Солнце, Sun) 14:10:29 and I hope you can figure out which comments are for you and which for int-e => yes, it’s pretty easy 14:11:46 -!- Faylite9 has joined. 14:12:14 -!- Faylite9 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 14:12:57 wob_jonas: also thank you for ISO-9 link. I was trying to read it intuitively and I hope in a right fashion 14:15:21 Mercury => well, it sounds like the planet and the roman god, which wouldn't be scary in itself, 14:16:06 but back in the communist regime, the same word "Merkúr" was also the name of the single institution in Hungary that was selling new cars to people, and people often had to wait years on a queue to get a new car because there weren't enough of them, even if they had the money to pay the price of the car 14:16:38 they sold Trabants, Ladas, Polskis, Dacias, and others 14:17:31 and some people just wouldn't ever get a car, for no fault of their own 14:17:37 there are horror stories about it 14:18:11 and everyone had to be satisfied with the one car that became assigned for them, or else reject it and wait another probably infinite time 14:18:20 It's also a pretty dangerous metal 14:18:49 arseniiv: ^ 14:19:00 Taneb: nah, they only call that in English 14:19:39 and it wasn't yet dangerous until like fifteen years ago, when they started to ban all mercury thermometers and lead soldering 14:19:50 and phase out leaded fuel 14:19:56 wob_jonas: wow 14:20:02 and tin, but nobody was using it 14:20:16 mind you, there are pretty good medical reasons for banning these 14:20:43 but there are still no body thermometers better than the treasured old mercury ones that you can no longer buy in Hungary 14:21:20 (English and most other western european languages) 14:21:43 so hospitals and private individuals treasure the remaining pieces alike, or perhaps try to get one from Ukraine 14:22:26 you can still hand them in to pharmacies for free for safe waste destruction, but you pretty much only want to do that if it no longer works or it broke 14:22:46 they're all made of glass so they break easily if you drop them, and cause a dangerous mercury leak 14:23:07 and you usually drop them when you're measuring your or your child's temperature, and the mercury can spill on the person 14:23:07 about Mercury: yeah, it’s probably an alchemy influence 14:23:17 arseniiv: yeah, just looked it up 14:23:27 Only metal whose alchemical name became the common name 14:23:29 arseniiv: yes, definitely, the seven classical metals are assoc'd with the seven classical planets 14:23:53 gold = sun, silver = moon, iron = mars, mercury = mercury, 14:23:57 I guess Mercury because at the time it wasn't used much outside Alcehmy 14:24:19 Unlike gold, silver, copper, tin, iron, lead 14:24:25 and I think lead = saturn, tin = jupiter or backwards, I always forget, and, um 14:24:32 copper = venus 14:24:47 I have a mercury thermometer :) these days they are rare (or nonexistent, IDK) there too 14:25:06 zinc was discovered too late so only these seven count as the classical alchemical metals 14:25:14 arseniiv: I have one too, yes 14:25:18 and I use it 14:25:31 some doctors also use mercury blood pressure meters 14:25:33 I don't have any medical thermometer 14:26:20 I have a sugar thermometer but I don't know what's inside it 14:26:24 Probably not sugar 14:26:51 Taneb: I have fever occasionally, so I need a body thermometer of some sort to be able to tell precisely how to take countermeasures like various NSAIDs, cooling shower, and go to the doctor 14:27:38 Taneb: what is the sugar thermometer's purpose? cooking? 14:28:23 wob_jonas: yeah, stuff like toffee and jam where you have to boil sugar at a specific temperature 14:28:34 (I use it to make marshmallows occasionally) 14:29:00 wow wow 14:29:14 so cooking. ok. 14:29:44 like a meat thermometer with those long needles to check the inside of whole cooked meat in the oven 14:29:46 I made a soft candy once 14:30:02 I don't have any of those because I don't cook anything such difficult 14:30:17 almost fried it in the process 14:30:17 I don't cook anything easy, which is terrible because I don't eat enough 14:30:59 Taneb: that's not a big problem if you can get acceptible food from another source 14:31:19 I also rarely cook. and even less in this summer heat. 14:31:30 s/even less/even more rarely/ 14:32:14 -!- mark-otaris has joined. 14:32:25 -!- mark-otaris has changed nick to Guest56059. 14:33:54 -!- Guest56059 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:34:35 `smlist 476 14:34:36 smlist 476: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 14:36:31 -!- beuker has joined. 14:37:40 -!- beuker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:06:06 -!- elenah7 has joined. 15:07:51 -!- elenah7 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:22:53 -!- imode has joined. 15:36:57 -!- XorSwap has joined. 15:40:40 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:50:23 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 15:50:32 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:58:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 16:00:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:00:43 -!- raspimate_ has joined. 16:01:05 -!- raspimate_ has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 16:05:46 -!- imode has joined. 16:20:42 -!- erkin has joined. 16:27:24 does somebody read webserials in languages other than English? 16:30:18 it seems unfair that webcomics are written in a variety of languages for quite a long time, and it seems webserials don’t compare in that regard 16:31:27 -!- puck has quit (Quit: *eh*). 16:33:03 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:33:31 -!- puckipedia has joined. 16:57:14 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:13:03 [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57279&oldid=57276 * DMC * (+35) 17:14:17 [[Alphabet Stew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57280&oldid=54957 * DMC * (+42) /* Examples */ 17:19:05 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:19:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 17:30:59 [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57281&oldid=54798 * DMC * (+93) /* The Instruction set */ 17:31:57 [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57282&oldid=57281 * DMC * (-44) /* The Instruction set */ 17:32:45 [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57283&oldid=57282 * DMC * (+4) /* The Instruction set */ 17:34:45 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 17:44:13 -!- wgma has joined. 17:44:27 -!- wgma has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:44:39 -!- imode has joined. 18:03:45 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:15:58 Cale: oh dang 18:18:51 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:23:35 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! Got SIGIRL, dying...). 18:26:14 -!- erkin has joined. 18:30:01 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:39:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:40:34 -!- tromp has joined. 19:11:36 -!- robotroll has joined. 19:12:03 -!- robotroll has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 19:26:45 -!- eNigmaFx10 has joined. 19:27:52 -!- eNigmaFx10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:32:00 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 19:54:14 [[NoRAL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57284&oldid=57283 * DMC * (+55) /* The Instruction set */ 20:09:54 -!- quiz9627 has joined. 20:11:42 -!- quiz9627 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:14:27 -!- ZexaronS has joined. 20:15:10 -!- ZexaronS has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:28:15 -!- puckipedia has changed nick to puck. 20:28:50 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 20:46:08 -!- Platonides22 has joined. 20:46:47 -!- Platonides22 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 20:53:43 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:57:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:03:27 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:05:25 -!- DJones has joined. 21:05:38 -!- DJones has quit (K-Lined). 21:51:21 -!- erkin has quit (Quit: Ouch! 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($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[ hg blame quotes | paste 01:59:31 `` hg blame quotes | paste 01:59:34 https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.17862 02:00:54 Yay, paste doesn't write to hg 02:06:39 wait what's that paste -sd'|' thing... 02:06:49 oh 02:07:21 `` hg blame --skip "$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)" quotes | paste 02:07:22 hg annotate: option --skip not recognized \ https://hack.esolangs.org/tmp/paste/paste.1675 02:07:27 darn 02:07:34 too new 02:07:52 (also marked as experimental) 02:08:01 fizzie: ^ 02:11:47 hm... 02:12:40 hm blaming an earlier revision won't work because lines may have been deleted. 02:13:49 oh well. 02:20:42 -!- tromp has joined. 02:20:44 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 275 seconds). 02:21:13 -!- sprocklem has joined. 02:25:23 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:33:43 ffs, there was a language that was a cross between finite state machines and string rewriting. it was on github. I cannot find it. it was an esolang. 02:38:23 Squishy2K! 02:46:04 [[OFC]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57285&oldid=57278 * Ais523 * (+265) /* Computational Class */ unusable, not TC 02:46:35 [[OFC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57286&oldid=57285 * Ais523 * (+10) clarify in the introduction that this isn't TC 02:52:14 -!- hurt_by_captcha has quit (Quit: Page closed). 03:09:37 what would y'all consider to be the most fundamental control structure. 03:09:52 or set of control structures. 03:11:04 Any ActiveX experts here? 03:14:36 -!- tromp has joined. 03:19:06 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:22:36 imode: the reverse jump with continuation pirouette hth 03:27:13 [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57287&oldid=57280 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Alphabet Stew */ Fix header 03:44:35 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:47:54 -!- iDanoo11 has joined. 03:48:06 lmao. 03:48:39 -!- iDanoo11 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:52:26 -!- XorSwap has joined. 04:00:17 -!- precise has joined. 04:03:45 -!- precise has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:08:35 -!- tromp has joined. 04:13:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:17:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:19:31 -!- sleepnap has joined. 04:22:46 -!- d9b4bef910 has joined. 04:25:51 -!- OPK24 has joined. 04:28:27 -!- d9b4bef910 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:31:05 -!- OPK24 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:40:40 @tell wob_jonas ok that doesn't go to well. e.g. i found https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Annexe:Conjugaison_en_italien/parlare and the information there is clearly _wrong_ on the pronunciation of parlerò. 04:40:41 Consider it noted. 04:41:48 @tell wob_jonas (i am trying to find an example with pronunciations not just of the lemma forms, but also the inflections.) 04:41:48 Consider it noted. 04:42:00 -!- n0nada4 has joined. 04:42:42 -!- n0nada4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:52:09 @tell wob_jonas and the saddest thing - none of the other wiktionaries even attempt to give pronunciations for parlerò or parleremo (checking the latter because it has no accent mark so you cannot deduce it) 04:52:10 Consider it noted. 04:53:14 * oerjan maybe should assume wob_jonas logreads? 04:54:10 so i still don't know whether the e in -emo is open or closed. (i assume it's most likely stressed.) 04:54:53 hm i could google for an accented version 05:02:43 -!- tromp has joined. 05:03:07 é according to a google book hit, it seems. 05:07:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:08:31 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly. 05:12:18 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 05:15:21 -!- ziddey4 has joined. 05:17:02 -!- ziddey4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:36:18 -!- pheizax has joined. 05:36:18 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:36:45 -!- aloril has joined. 05:38:19 -!- pheizax has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:50:32 -!- zgrepc has quit (Quit: Updating details, brb). 05:50:57 -!- ^[ has joined. 05:57:12 -!- tromp has joined. 06:01:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:25:17 -!- tromp has joined. 06:29:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:34:04 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:00:00 -!- timwis has joined. 07:01:35 -!- timwis has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:02:16 -!- tromp has joined. 07:13:29 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:25:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:26:23 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:27:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:31:42 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:39:26 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:43:01 -!- fungot has joined. 07:52:53 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 07:53:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:00:50 -!- atslash has joined. 08:17:29 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:21:14 -!- erkin has joined. 08:22:41 -!- fungot has joined. 08:40:18 -!- erkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:42:26 -!- erkin has joined. 09:38:17 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:38:44 "does somebody read webserials in languages other than English?" => yes, but only one. 09:39:54 David Madore's weblog at http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/ , who is native bilingual in French and English, and a striving polyglot, and is blogging in both English and French. The best of his entries are the mathematics ones, most of which are in French. (These days, most of his entries overall are French, it used to be more English.) 09:40:11 I reply to his French maths entries in English comments, then he replies to me in English. 09:40:41 webcomics => well, David did link to a few French webcomics, but I'm not interested. 09:41:10 I know only enough French to struggle through most of his entries slowly, and he writes in a very clear prose, and maths is easy to read anyway. 09:42:05 -!- James_T18 has joined. 09:42:08 He also has a few articles about amateur linguistics 09:42:12 aarseniiv: ^ 09:43:13 http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/lang.html for the latter, and about his experiences in learning foreign languages incl russian and arabic 09:45:30 Wait, you asked "webserials"? Then no. 09:45:40 His blog doesn't count as a "webserial" I think. 09:46:57 -!- James_T18 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:13:51 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 10:14:13 oerjan: so you're saying you checked a paper dictionary, and wiktionary is definitely wrong about a common italian word? it happens, I've seen such cases on a wiki. I just found two Hungarian words that supposedly mean circus in English, but I very much doubt it, unless it's an obscure meaning of "circus". 10:15:04 oerjan: doesn't Italian have some default convention for omitting the stress accent even in dictionaries if it matches a simple default rule? 10:15:27 Of course that doesn't work for a wiki where people might just not add the stress mark, but still. 10:16:16 oerjan: French wiktionary at least gives pronunciation for almost all French words, including almost all inflections. 10:17:13 oerjan: it's almost stupid to ask, but you have considered that you're just wrong about Italian and wiktionary is correct, right? 10:18:15 you could also try to ask on #wiktionary on freenode, per https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/Channels . 10:20:06 and the editors of the French wiktionary are helpful if you ask. they might not start to add stress marks for all italian words all the sudden, but at least they might figure out what's the deal with them. You can ask in https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionnaire:Ambassade , Yann is pretty active and a volunteer there and is fluent in English 10:20:11 he's also active on IRC. 10:37:47 -!- daemon22 has joined. 10:39:18 -!- daemon22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:47:41 -!- armin23 has joined. 10:49:16 -!- armin23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:49:43 -!- walle303 has joined. 10:50:04 -!- walle303 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:27:32 -!- qassim25 has joined. 11:27:53 -!- qassim25 has quit (K-Lined). 11:39:20 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 11:44:34 -!- fungot has joined. 11:50:44 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:04:10 Following up the other popular webcomic authors each publishing the book is qwantz with a book to be published later in 2018: http://www.howtoinventeverything.com/ 12:05:01 previous webcomics like that include xkcd and SMBC. And that's just the ones that aren't mainly the same webcomic in print form, like Irregular's and Questionable Comic and OOTS. 12:20:21 -!- Hijiri24 has joined. 12:22:07 -!- Hijiri24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:22:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:43:00 izabera: just timed my cubing and I got an average of 2:19. Lots of room to improve :) 12:43:12 not bad not bad 12:43:23 did you see the xiaomi rubik's cube? 12:43:28 I did not! 12:43:35 is that 2:19 for a 3x3? 12:43:36 look it up! 12:43:48 FireFly: yeah 12:43:55 I'm probably roughly the same speed I think 12:44:01 haven't tried timing 12:44:14 not bad guys, not bad 12:44:20 not really great either :p 12:44:20 I just timed 5 and took the middle 3 (I believe that's what they do in tournaments) 12:44:35 I could do that when I get home 12:46:05 the only approach I know is very slow and step-by-step, really 12:46:22 yeah you must get rid of the steps, steps are bad 12:48:35 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:50:49 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * WhyAreWeHereJustToSuffer * New user account 12:52:15 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57288&oldid=57269 * WhyAreWeHereJustToSuffer * (+156) /* Introductions */ 12:54:11 [[Cellular automaton]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57289&oldid=57230 * Ais523 * (+121) /* Relation to esoteric programming */ two more examples 13:00:05 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 13:02:41 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:05:26 Taneb: usually middle 8 of 10, but people sometimes do just middle 3 of 5. 13:06:25 Also there's #rubik which taught me a bit, but mostly I just need to practice a lot and occasionally think about which parts to concentrate on and which parts to relearn to do differently (confusing at first but eventually worth). 13:07:10 #rubik is about as off-topic as this channel, the regulars talk about rust and the vim editor. 13:08:02 and they have a bot to give a random cube scramble, and they sometimes talk about cubing, so it's not off-topic all the time 13:08:11 you know that sort of thing if you're here a lot 13:11:06 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: thunderstorm). 13:11:58 My next plan is to get better at planning my first moves 13:18:49 I really need to get my own cube 13:19:02 I've got one at my parents' house and I've otherwise been borrowing one of my coworker's 13:22:42 Taneb: I bought two, and I'm now using the one that I like better. 13:23:10 It's the one named TheValk, but what cube you want is sort of a matter of personal choice. 13:23:55 I should still buy a good silver mirror some day, as a secondary thing to learn better, solving it blindfolded. (I can already solve the silver mirror, obviously, but too slowly.) 13:24:16 But the primary will be the 3x3x3 cube two-handed normal solve, as is the most popular. 13:24:31 I'm also bad at it, but every little practice helps. 13:25:16 Taneb: just buy a cheap speedcube for a tenner or something 13:28:02 https://www.cuboss.se/shop/yuxin-little-magic-3x3/ I think it was this one that I got 13:37:52 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:39:14 wob_jonas: Wait, you asked "webserials"? Then no. => :D 13:41:31 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:20:51 -!- Melvar has joined. 14:22:06 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:22:20 -!- fungot has joined. 14:35:01 aarseniv: I'll rewatch the parts of the video that I recognized wrong. "Ë" => yes, that's definitely a "h", not a "ž", because it doesn't have the middle part. The cursive "ž" is longer, with lots of space for the middle. 14:35:41 scrolling to "L" 14:36:21 Taneb: want to split the shipping costs? 14:37:07 and yes, it's also an "m" in the end at the "Ë" word, with two tent-tops and angle joint at the left bottom to separate it 14:37:13 izabera: ...honestly I was just planning on going to Sainsburys and buying an official, non-speed cube 14:37:45 why 14:38:02 Because learning the algorithms would be better for me than just having a slicker cube 14:38:11 Or learning better algorithms 14:38:21 Taneb: you need a speed cube, even if a cheap one. 14:38:23 really. 14:38:47 don't buy the Rubik brand if that's what you mean by "official" 14:39:01 ask on #rubik if you need help choosing 14:39:10 you can order good cubes for cheap from ebay, like I did 14:39:28 cheaper than I can buy the official nice-looking ones in the local game stores 14:39:55 `? Taneb 14:39:57 Taneb is not elliott, no matter whom you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, one of which is a Czech woman, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions). 14:40:09 is elliott still alive? 14:40:55 unless you're in a country where the post and customs offices open every fucking cheap ebay order from the east and makes you pay double its price as import tariff 14:41:09 like Sweden starting last year, but hopefully it won't stick 14:41:32 I don't know the situation in Norway or the UK or wherever you guys are 14:41:49 UK I think, so quick order it before Brexit 14:42:36 Er, specifically 75 or 125 SEK, I think, depending on value of the thing you order 14:42:38 Yeah, we're both in the UK 14:43:15 Yes, it's a "v" in "Lavraziâ", because it looks like a latin b 14:43:21 Taneb: the non-speedcube cubes are horrible though, so I don't see any reason to get that :p 14:43:42 like a decent speedcube would probably be both significantly smoother and cheaper 14:43:58 FireFly: honestly, I find the stiffness relaxing 14:44:06 hm, alright 14:44:24 It helps calm me down sometimes to do something that has some resistance with my hands 14:45:30 Taneb: yes, so get a stiffer speedcube. That's why I chose TheValk. The other one I bought turns too easily, plus its corners are so loose I have multiple times accidentally twisted a corner in place without meaning to. 14:45:31 Getting better at solving them is mostly a pleasant side effect 14:46:01 It calms me down too. 14:46:12 But I'm still very glad I bought a speedcube this year. 14:46:15 finally 14:46:23 Hm 14:46:35 I'd have bought one earlier if I knew they were this good 14:46:40 There's a nice boardgames-and-stuff store in Prague, I wonder if they have speedcubes too 14:47:01 they're on ebay from east asia with often free shipping 14:47:09 you know ebay, right? 14:47:12 So, what's the advantage of speedcubes? 14:47:48 they're more pleasant to work with. won't lock up when you try to turn it, which breaks your concentration a lot 14:48:08 They havea different construction, so that you can rotate a layer without the others being exactly completely in the right position, I think 14:48:23 go talk to #rubik, they'll explain it better 14:48:28 I'm not sure what the construction of a traditional cube looks like, but the speedcubes have like a sphere with spokes in the middle 14:48:49 there are various constructions, including magnetic ones (mine isn't magnetic) 14:49:04 FireFly: traditional is a sphere with grooves, I think 14:49:43 Buy a non-speed cube for your small child above three years who won't swallow the pieces if he takes it off with his tiny fingers, and be prepared that when he does so, his hand will get dirty. 14:50:16 -!- Guest79333 has joined. 14:50:24 But he'll enjoy disassembling and daddy putting it back together, and if he's six year old, then he'll also enjoy assembling and turning it. maybe. every child is different. 14:53:18 -!- Guest79333 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:57:17 I don't mean it literally 14:57:26 I don't think you have a small child 14:57:46 I'm just saying, a toy store cube is a worthless children's toy 15:07:51 By the way, the way how the top line of the B and P are disconnected from the vertical parts looks so unusual to me. I don't write any latin letters like that. The only thing it resembles is a greek capital Xi 15:08:21 yet without the hole, if you extended the vertical lines to reach the top, they'd look entirely normal 15:11:27 aarseniv: "Solnce" => indeed. it's a bottom-joined "o", the one I mentioned was strange to me, but with a very short join on o's side, then the required tiny angle join on the "l" for a low connection 15:12:24 Now let me watch the rest of the letters. And I hope near the end you manage to work in words with examples of the rarer letters with different connections, which will be tricky 15:13:11 "T" => standalone top is still the only really strange part 15:14:29 damn, you're getting impatient here and writing more quickly 15:14:57 also, the top is not just not touching the stiles, but also written afterwards, like an accent? I'll never do that 15:17:05 "Tenočt..." ... "Tenočtitlan" is that from one of the pre-Columbus south american civilizations? 15:18:00 That capital "U" is strange 15:18:28 Or perhaps it's normal, and the way we write capital J and Y in cursive is what's strange 15:19:04 "Uran" is that another celestial? 15:20:12 "Fudzi" 15:27:12 -!- imode has joined. 15:28:41 "Hinlopenbrin" I think? it's a bit squashed on the right ... and then you cross out "lop" and write "lop" again 15:28:50 yeah, at this point you were getting tired 15:31:20 Ok, now here it's getting ugly and harder to read. "Cicik..." "Cicikar" and the first i is squashed 15:44:53 I have to leave, dunno when I can actually watch this video 15:45:04 I must do more important sutff 15:45:06 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:06:29 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:06:30 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 16:06:30 -!- Vorpal has joined. 16:13:06 -!- piklu28 has joined. 16:13:46 -!- piklu28 has quit (K-Lined). 16:19:51 -!- hggdh23 has joined. 16:20:33 -!- hggdh23 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 16:22:13 @tell wob_jonas calling me with the other vowel doubled doesn’t give me notifications( 16:22:13 Consider it noted. 16:30:16 -!- kameloso26 has joined. 16:31:27 -!- kameloso26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:33:16 @tell wob_jonas By the way, the way how the top line of the B and P are disconnected from the vertical parts looks so unusual to me. I don't write any latin letters like that. The only thing it resembles is a greek capital Xi => it could be connected, I think. If you want, definitely do connect. It’s a fancy, and I don’t remember getting bad grades in middle school about not following it strictly, as with many other details 16:33:16 Consider it noted. 16:33:56 oh I fear that message has been split in half, but I haven’t yet read to the bottom 16:34:01 to see it 16:35:30 @tell wob_jonas damn, you're getting impatient here and writing more quickly => oops I have been afraid it could be so 16:35:31 Consider it noted. 16:38:30 @tell wob_jonas also, the top is not just not touching the stiles, but also written afterwards, like an accent? I'll never do that => I was unsure there. A friend have said me after he watched that they’ve been taught to write kratka in й (and maybe dots in ё) just after the “base” is written, not after all the “bases” in the word are written 16:38:30 Consider it noted. 16:39:10 @tell wob_jonas "Tenočtitlan" is that from one of the pre-Columbus south american civilizations? => yeah 16:39:11 Consider it noted. 16:40:44 @tell wob_jonas That capital "U" is strange => if you mean it needs a hook I’d agree. When I write it nearly cursively, I often add a hook, it looks pleasant 16:40:44 Consider it noted. 16:43:24 @tell wob_jonas "Uran" is that another celestial? => yes, Uranus (and also uranium, but it’s of course not a place; also curiously uranium is simply уран, but neptunium and plutonium are suddenly нептуний and плутоний, with an -ий suffix homological with -ium) 16:43:24 Consider it noted. 16:45:07 @tell wob_jonas "Hinlopenbrin" I think? it's a bit squashed on the right ... and then you cross out "lop" and write "lop" again => the name is read right, it’s a glacier somewhere, also I had decided the first ло is written incorrectly and showed a more correct version, п there for completeness of о form 16:45:07 Consider it noted. 16:50:52 @tell wob_jonas also an addition to a previous one: <= Or perhaps it's normal, and the way we write capital J and Y in cursive is what's strange => no, actually there’s evidence Russian cursive was based on Latin one and it almost hadn’t evolve organically as Latin had 16:50:52 Consider it noted. 16:51:57 @tell wob_jonas Цицикар is also right. Sorry it goes harder to the end 16:51:57 Consider it noted. 16:52:48 also forgive me #esoteric I’ll make a test of lambdabot memory here, too 16:53:18 @tell aarseniv please don’t try to impersonate me, it’s too evident 16:53:18 Consider it noted. 16:53:54 …and I hoped they wouldn’t save a message for an unregistered nickname user 17:02:43 -!- Vorpal has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:04:31 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:04:31 -!- Vorpal has quit (Changing host). 17:04:31 -!- Vorpal has joined. 17:07:02 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:12:41 -!- nesthib has joined. 17:14:09 -!- nesthib has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 17:19:46 -!- bcompton has joined. 17:37:43 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 17:47:18 [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57290&oldid=57284 * DMC * (+32) /* The Instruction set */ 17:50:03 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:50:45 [[NoRAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57291&oldid=57290 * DMC * (+102) /* added Truth machine code */ 17:58:04 -!- liguo has joined. 17:58:05 -!- liguo has quit (K-Lined). 18:05:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:08:19 -!- bcompton has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 18:08:41 -!- bradcomp has joined. 18:09:38 -!- bradcomp has quit (Client Quit). 18:15:32 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:12 [[Bitter]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57292&oldid=54870 * DMC * (+158) /* Examples */ 18:17:45 [[Bitter]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57293&oldid=57292 * DMC * (-1) /* Truth Machine */ 18:19:53 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57294&oldid=57279 * DMC * (+1) /* Alphabet Stew */ 18:21:12 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57295&oldid=57294 * DMC * (+46) /* Implementations */ 18:24:42 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57296&oldid=57295 * DMC * (+4) /* Implementations */ 18:24:53 -!- bradcomp has joined. 18:35:13 -!- sleepnap1 has joined. 18:35:32 -!- sleepnap1 has left. 18:43:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:47:04 -!- imode has joined. 18:51:36 anyone here familiar with the Jelly golfing language? 18:59:40 someone definitely was, though I don’t remember who. Try searching the logs 19:00:50 -!- heinrich599128 has joined. 19:01:21 -!- heinrich599128 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 19:03:37 for example => 08:22:46 I know about jelly because ais523 programs in it 19:07:01 it seems he’s the only one 19:10:52 it’s November 2017 and still he’s the only one telling useful things about it. ATMunn tried to program in Jelly and failed (in December, 17, the same year) 19:11:59 mm, i'll try and ambush him when he shows up again then 19:12:05 thanks for the info 19:21:07 no prob; ftr I’ve decided to search all 2017 months, and there was only ais523 19:34:55 -!- pheizax has joined. 19:35:32 -!- pheizax has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:57:10 -!- soahccc has joined. 19:59:12 -!- soahccc has quit (K-Lined). 20:12:34 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:13:54 arseniiv: the reason this russian cursive is so unintuitive to me is that the connection between the letters work completely differently. firstly, it's backwards from the simple way I model latin cursive. 20:15:25 the way I model it, most letters end near the bottom and some end near the top, and all letters can start at the top so for normal letters the connection is an upwards slanting straight line, and for letters ending up, the connection is a little smiling line dipping down whose top is on the line that separates the small size letters from the ascend 20:15:25 ers. 20:15:32 there's no downwards connections 20:16:01 some letters need uglier variant forms after a letter that ends on the top, and they get squashed, because they'd rather have a connection on the bottom 20:18:14 b, o, r, v, w end on the top, a, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k, l, m, n, p, q, s, t, u, y, z end on the bottom, and how x is supposed to be written in normal cursive is a complete 20:19:00 e gets a smaller loop after an upper connection, with the top smiley being lengthened so it smoothly forms to bottom of the loop, but a nice large loop for a lower connection. 20:20:10 f and l get a nice large loop for a bottom connection, and since it has an ascender, they still have a large enough loop for an upper connection, but look slightly stranger, especially f where the loop doesn't intersect the cross then 20:21:23 r gets hard to write for a top connection because it's supposed to start with a top frown, so normally after an upper connection you're supposed to make a tilde from the top frown and the bottom frown, but this is only in the style I learned, most people use a completely different looking alternate form 20:23:14 i, m, n, u, v, w, y start with a vertical line from top to bottom at full length of a normal length character, and the smiley or upwards slant meet at a sharp angle at the top of that line, so there's always a sharp angle connection at top for those 20:24:02 t is sort of similar, but you connect in the middle of the even longer vertical line, write the ascender of the same line up and a 180 degree turn at top, then straight down to almost the baseline 20:25:16 f, h, k, l start with a looped ascender where you connect to the intersection of the loop, smoothly continuing either the upwards slant or the smiley into the start of the right side of the loop, and then the loop ends like a normal downwards line 20:27:10 after the downwards line, in b, i, t, u, v, w the downwards line doesn't quite reach the baseline, but curve out in a bottom smiley instead; in h, k, m, n, and r the vertical line reaches the baseline vertical and makes a 180 degree turm; f and p go even further and the vertical line reaches the bottom of the descender 20:28:01 whereas in this russian alphabet you're showing me, the connection is decided backwards, it depends on the next letter, not the previous letter, and the connecting lines or angles are different too 20:29:08 oerjan: English vs French wiktionary is sort of a tie, they're different in different ways 20:30:41 I also have no idea how to write uppercase letters in cursive properly, they're weird 20:30:56 I think they do have these parts that are supposed to be written later in some styles too 20:32:02 the way I was taught, the cross of the t and the dot of the i and the acute accents and diaresis and double acute are supposed to be added after the whole word, because it breaks the connection, but I never do that. I write a full letter, it's easier even if it's uglier. 20:32:13 and there are variants on many letters 20:33:21 like, in some, f is supposed to have a pen lift after the end of the downwards line and start the cross in a new line, but the cross isn't written after the word because it's what connects smoothly to the upwards slant for the next letter. 20:33:37 the cross is also a smiley by the way, whereas the cross of the t is a straight line 20:33:41 I should try to make images or something 20:34:11 but sane people don't lift the pen for f, they connect the bottom straight to the hook because that doesn't make it more similar to any letter 20:34:29 but you have to write a proper descender, or else it would look like a b 20:34:46 I write very ugly though in practice, breaking all the rules and using my own crazy stule 20:36:37 I'll get back and actually watch the video to the end. I'll be interested in the rarer latters and if you manage to show how they connec5t 20:38:17 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:16:10 hi again 21:17:28 hi 21:17:45 -!- tromp has joined. 21:20:03 wob_jonas: I should try to make images or something => definitely :) 21:20:29 I’ve seen some Latin cursive here and there, but I lack a more systematic knowledge 21:21:45 hi bradcomp) 21:26:44 `smlist 477 21:26:44 smlist 477: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 21:32:00 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting for new kernel). 21:39:19 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:46:15 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:11:52 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:22:07 -!- Gentle has joined. 22:22:40 -!- Gentle has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:25:52 -!- Andre483 has joined. 22:30:33 -!- Andre483 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:33:54 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:39:36 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:40:00 -!- Melvar has joined. 22:40:13 -!- boily has joined. 23:02:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:34:45 -!- imode has joined. 23:45:14 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:45:44 -!- Techman25 has joined. 23:46:49 -!- Techman25 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 23:55:31 -!- dp39 has joined. 23:56:39 -!- dp39 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:59:30 -!- rain2 has joined. 2018-08-10: 00:01:30 -!- YuGiOhJCJ has joined. 00:01:59 -!- YuGiOhJCJ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:04:05 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:12:27 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 00:41:17 -!- SoniEx2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:50:11 -!- Sigyn22 has joined. 00:51:58 -!- Sigyn22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:52:34 -!- SoniEx2 has joined. 01:05:06 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:06:40 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:08:28 -!- Gregor` has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:12:17 -!- MDude has joined. 01:19:39 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:46:23 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:51:05 -!- boily has quit (Quit: MEANDERING CHICKEN). 01:59:36 -!- Zooklubba0 has joined. 02:00:52 -!- Zooklubba0 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 02:04:06 -!- meti24 has joined. 02:04:31 -!- meti24 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 02:05:37 -!- ululate has joined. 02:08:36 -!- tromp has joined. 02:11:54 -!- ululate has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:12:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:20:17 -!- gildarts_ has joined. 02:20:20 -!- gildarts_ has changed nick to Guest62181. 02:26:13 -!- Guest62181 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 02:26:18 I can't believe I dismissed Julia language just because I thought it was just for science work 02:33:00 the lambda calculus is an inefficient model for computing w.r.t physical implementations, change my view. 02:37:10 -!- bradcomp has joined. 02:46:59 imode: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.90.2386&rep=rep1&type=pdf 02:48:15 brief summary? a skim shows this as improving beta reduction. 02:48:39 it's a massively parallel lambda evaluator 02:48:59 this technique can run on a gpu and make e.g. pure lambda calculus arithmetic feasible 02:49:09 great. that doesn't change the fact that lambda calculus is an inefficient model for computing w.r.t physical implementations. 02:49:14 doesn't it? 02:49:26 not really, no. imagine you were to design a lambda calculus processor. 02:49:41 it would be like a gpu 02:49:44 LC works over lambda terms, which are term trees. 02:49:44 and it would be fast 02:49:48 it's not a tree 02:50:01 how are LC terms not trees. 02:50:22 because you make them graphs as in the paper i linked to, in order to do very fast parallel reductionm 02:50:47 that doesn't change the fact that term trees are LC's native representation. 02:50:56 the difference is significant because things like e.g. variable capture, de bruijin indices, shifting all go away 02:50:58 yes it does change that fact 02:51:03 what does "native representation" mean? 02:51:28 the native representation of `\x. x+1` is a list of characters that you can parse in to whatever 02:51:38 just because you like parsing it in to a tree doesn't mean it is a tree 02:51:41 it means that you don't use a graph, you use term trees. nested LC terms. 02:51:52 in fact, the trouble with manipulating lambda terms points to the fact that they are not trees 02:51:52 regardless, show me some graph structured memory. 02:52:22 look at the problems that de bruijin indices were made to solve, and the things you have to do wit shifting and unshifting in order to avoid variable capture 02:52:30 when I say "physical implementation" I mean the entire processor needs to do one thing and one thing only: reduce lambda expressions. 02:52:34 with a graph representation, a lambda binder connects directly to the usage sites of the variable 02:52:52 imode: the big picture here is that lambda reduction looks very different from your current mental model 02:52:55 in order to do that, one needs some kind of tree or graph-structured memory for evaluation. 02:53:11 no, you can do it on a cellular automata-like processor 02:53:17 how so? 02:53:20 where rewrites are purely local 02:54:23 the thing that I find attractive about TMs is that their state is almost entirely linear, sans the state tables. 02:54:51 which can be represented as 2D tables. with LC I find that you need tree or graph structured memory, regardless of whether you're doing naive or optimized reductions. 02:55:12 the paper i linked to discusses a formalism called interaction nets 02:55:29 right, which requires, first and foremost, graph structured memory to reduce arbitrary lambda expressions. 02:55:36 it's a graph rewriting model of computation where rewrites are purely local, and so a large graph can be processed in parallel since portions of the graph are owned independently 02:56:03 the graph is encoded as an array 02:56:12 portions of the array are rewritten in parallel, like a pixel shader 02:56:19 the memory is flat 02:56:37 so you've now just reduced it to a random access machine with a particular program. 02:56:43 it's not random access 02:56:47 like i said, rewrites are local 02:56:55 imagine a big array divided in to say, 5 chunks 02:57:01 it's not random access, causality stays inside each chunk 02:57:51 so your process is... convert a lambda expression into an interaction net, reduce said interaction net with this giant parallel local rewriting thing. 02:57:54 information propagates across the graph in a wave like a game of life glider for example 02:58:29 seems like an awful long way to go just for LC. 02:58:52 https://github.com/MaiaVictor/parallel_lambda_computer_tests has a small prototype of this scheme 02:59:06 what language? 02:59:07 not mine, but he's also working on something similar 02:59:11 this one is in javascript 02:59:24 sorry, that one is cuda 02:59:27 there's another in javascript 02:59:29 lol I was gonna say. 02:59:32 funky lookin' JS. 03:00:03 so, what exactly goes into the process of translating LC into interaction nets, per se. 03:00:33 because I guess my point is you're not really reducing LC expressions, you're reducing some compiled form of LC expressions. 03:00:49 whereas I can actually go out and build an LBA. 03:01:10 and build the state tables and so on and so forth. without any compilation steps. if I really had the mindfulness to. 03:01:39 at what point does building an optimizing evaluator turn the thing you're evaluating into an entirely different model of computation. 03:02:23 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:02:49 i guess you can say interaction nets are the real model of computation here 03:03:08 kind of my point. 03:03:16 but if lambda calculus has a thin translation to it, like C does to x86, does it matter? 03:03:44 well yeah, it does, because this is a model of computation we're talking about. x86 is pretty far away from a TM. 03:04:11 C isn't a TM, it's another machine model 03:04:29 if I had built something like Laconic and called it a model of computation, but really it needs to be compiled down to a TM in order to actually carry out the computation, the model of computation isn't Laconic, it's the TM. 03:04:43 the point is you can give a straightforward cost semantics for lambda calculus and realize it on a physical machine 03:04:44 no, I was making a mismatch between x86 and a TM. 03:05:17 well, models of computation are often abstract 03:05:19 right, but that's not.. my point. you're not really evaluating the lambda calculus. you're evaluating instances of interaction nets. 03:05:39 so the claim "LC is an efficient model of computation w.r.t physical implementation" is pretty bogus. 03:05:45 if we're going to use the word model here, it doesn't matter what it really runs on, what matters is whether you're able to give a cost semantics for expressions 03:06:16 I'd argue the opposite, as actually implementing models does help. 03:06:45 it's kind of why I hate the name "lisp machine", too. 03:06:59 like, it's not really a lisp machine. it's a random access machine with a lisp interface. 03:07:17 have you found the JS snippet yet? really curious because that CUDA looked interesting. 03:07:39 https://github.com/MaiaVictor/LPU 03:08:16 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:08:42 huh. okay. 03:09:09 wish it was a little more well commented but I doubt this is for documentation purposes. 03:09:26 you can check the github issues thread linked for a back and forth discussing it 03:09:32 "Explanation" in the README 03:09:56 oh boy it links to chorasimilarity. 03:10:08 once you get the idea you don't really need the js, and anyway he does it naively so you'd need to change it to realize the parallelism 03:10:54 one thing to keep in mind is that this is using the good version of cellular automata, not the kind that's popular 03:11:22 the usual cellular automata are too hard to build anything with because the rules are like [A B C] -> B 03:11:37 the kind used here is a block cellular automata where rules are like [A B C] -> [A B C] 03:11:47 so what're the rules for reducing interaction nets, and how do LC expressions compile to them? 03:12:05 still looking through this, but picking the concept apart from a github issue is... 03:12:11 not really all that fun. 03:12:42 https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/e24d/ad59709fef715e512a9caebd781d0b029075.pdf the first few sections of this are good to explain it 03:13:01 i can do it in the chat but it's a bit involved and i can't draw diagrams 03:13:14 lol, I figured. 03:13:31 sigh. why not just a concise explanation. 03:13:35 imagine a node in a graph as a big ball with little pegs on it 03:13:40 right. ports. 03:13:42 you know that "bop it" game? 03:13:47 okay, so there's one special port 03:13:56 when two nodes touch on this port they interact 03:14:13 this keeps all interaction local, meaning you can divide up memory among independent processors 03:14:19 okay, define interact. 03:14:25 you know that node can't be interacting with anyone else at the same time 03:14:31 so, two nodes are touching on their "principal" port 03:14:36 they have other ports, say two others 03:14:42 those ports are also connected to nodes 03:14:46 do these ports represent bound variables. 03:14:49 and unbound ones. 03:14:59 during an "interaction", you can take ownership of all of those ports and rewire them as you please 03:15:21 and you can make new nodes with new connections, as long as the total "interface" of connections remains the same 03:15:30 no, they don't 03:15:52 okay.. can you show me some computations? maybe something as simple as adding two numbers? 03:16:07 one way to do it is to have a node representing a lambda, with a principal port for interaction, another port that connects to each usage of the variable, and another port connecting to the lambda's body 03:16:25 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.112.2822&rep=rep1&type=pdf 03:16:27 here, this one is easy 03:16:39 that does cons-lists, basic arithmetic etc 03:17:12 I see. so are nodes typed? 03:17:21 ah nvm. 03:17:29 it's like lambda calculus, you can develop typed and untyped formalisms 03:17:31 they "kind of are" by their shape, it looks. 03:17:49 -!- u0_a101 has joined. 03:17:51 okay, I'll take a look at this and get back to you. 03:18:12 seems like an interesting formalism, I'd like to pick your brain about how you'd do it in a flat memory space. 03:20:34 afk for like 10. 03:27:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:39:45 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 03:41:44 -!- x49F has joined. 03:42:37 -!- x49F has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:44:59 oerjan: so you're saying you checked a paper dictionary, and wiktionary is definitely wrong about a common italian word? <-- technically i knew parlerò was wrong from wikipedia's phonology article (ò is always open), but the scanned paper one in google books had other examples like parlerèbbe (where the accent is _not_ usually written, and means it's open so wiktionary gets that too wrong) 03:46:09 although parlerebbe is a bit fishy, there are more google hits for parlerébbe... 03:46:34 (only a handful of each though.) 03:46:53 (although it might include OCR errors, seeing as there are google books hits.) 03:48:06 this book btw https://books.google.no/books?id=Oox0b3OPJIwC&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=parler%C3%A9mo&source=bl&ots=RQmfWUInLy&sig=zTvv_OpILl6_vCc5z3DqEEAYo6w&hl=no&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjs5Y7Ex-HcAhXR0aYKHcLvA8IQ6AEwBnoECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=parler%C3%A9mo&f=true 03:48:52 (i searched for parlerémo first, which wiktionary actually gets right) 03:50:09 oerjan: doesn't Italian have some default convention for omitting the stress accent even in dictionaries if it matches a simple default rule? <-- plausible, it would probably be when it's the second last syllable and not e or o. 03:50:49 however, i think that would be a bad idea for wiktionary because then you wouldn't know if the editor has forgotten to add the info or not 03:56:28 back. 03:57:04 -!- tromp has joined. 04:00:25 -!- fractal12 has joined. 04:01:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:01:12 -!- fractal12 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 04:03:24 xkapastel: okay. starting to see the applications of this. now how exactly would I implement these rewriting rules. would I just have an array of nodes with a set of ports linked to other nodes? 04:05:22 a node has a tag and let's say 3 ports max 04:05:39 for each port, you need to know what node it's connected to, and also what port on that node 04:06:02 if two nodes are connected on their principal ports (let's say port 0), they interact 04:06:16 now, the trick about doing this in parallel 04:06:31 is to make nodes only interact with adjacent nodes in this array 04:06:45 okay.. so that involves some shuffling, I assume. 04:06:50 if you're familiar with like, a convolution, or an IR filter, you can scan down the array in blocks in parallel 04:07:05 so you'd tile up the whole array evenly in to independent chunks 04:07:09 let's say 4 nodes per chunk 04:07:23 if two nodes are adjacent and connected by principal ports, you do the rewrite rule given by their tags 04:07:34 like you saw wit e.g. append and cons 04:07:48 right. but, okay, let's step back and not assume I want parallel evaluation. 04:07:50 if they're not connected, then they need to move around and find the thing they are connected to 04:07:55 okay 04:08:16 well, you can just have a big array of nodes 04:08:17 so I have an array of nodes. each node has a finite number of ports at max. 04:08:32 struct Node { tag int, fstId int, fstPort int, sndId int, sndPort int, auxId int, auxPort int } 04:08:37 for example 04:08:41 let's say I have a rule that if two X tagged nodes are connecd to eachother, they get erased. 04:08:57 so what happens is, you have an array of pairs of node IDs 04:09:09 which represent the nodes you have found that are connected by their principal ports 04:09:14 okay. 04:09:18 you have an API that connects two nodes 04:09:26 like connect(fstId, fstPort, sndId, sndPort) 04:09:33 if fstPort == 0 and sndPort == 0, then they go in that array 04:09:38 since they're gonna interact 04:09:42 gotcha. 04:09:59 at each "tick", you have however many pairs in that array 04:10:13 the size of that array is the "available parallelism" which is an interesting metric that lets you measure cost 04:10:26 anyway you go through the array and do the rule for each pair 04:10:28 right, "here's how many things are going to interact at this step." 04:10:34 and the rule will involve more calls to `connect()` 04:10:41 which will probably put more things in the array 04:10:47 and you see how it keeps going 04:11:34 so, let's say I have the cons/append example. 04:11:46 all I'd have to say is "take these two nodes, they're connected by their principal ports." 04:12:22 append's first port is the principal, second is i guess v, then w 04:12:33 cons have a principal, and x and u 04:12:39 "rewrite it such that append's port 1 (the top port) is now linked to cons's port 2." 04:12:47 so when they connect by principal, you own all of those places in the array 04:12:47 so on and so on for all ports in that rule. 04:12:53 so you can rewrite them 04:13:05 "you", i mean the independent process responsible for rewriting that pair 04:13:26 I'm trying to focus on how you'd just step by step rewrite this. what your lhs and rhs of a given rule looks like in memory. 04:13:58 cons' u port is a member of that node struct 04:14:04 the id it's connect to is append's id 04:14:14 the port it's connected to is the number of append's w port 04:14:22 so, adding and removing nodes. 04:14:44 one sec. 04:14:44 the really simple way is to just have a free list of IDs 04:15:35 and you'd have some kind of node like "drop" or "erase" in that pdf, where part of the rule is returning the id of the node you interact with to the free list 04:17:46 -!- blacksyke4 has joined. 04:19:31 -!- blacksyke4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:21:38 -!- __idiot__ has joined. 04:21:48 -!- __idiot__ has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 04:22:28 xkapastel: back. so, adding and removing nodes. if I said you could only specify a rule using structure initialization syntax in C, what would you give me for cons/append's rule. 04:23:37 well the rules are mutating integers in an array 04:24:07 it's just a bunch of stuff like `graph.node[fst].ports[2][1] = graph.node[snd].ports[0][2]` or whatever 04:24:11 right. but you need to store your lhs and rhs in some kind of format. 04:24:23 so what would that look like. 04:24:26 imagine 5 assignments like that one stacked on top of each other 04:24:29 in a function 04:24:42 [[Hash function]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57297 * A * (+237) I can't explain that... 04:24:46 you could have a 2d matrix where row and columns are node tags 04:24:56 and the element inside the matrix is a function pointer implementing the rewrite rule 04:25:03 [[Hash function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57298&oldid=57297 * A * (+132) 04:25:06 and the body is a bunch of assignments like the one i just wrote 04:25:17 [[Hash function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57299&oldid=57298 * A * (-132) 04:25:47 okay, new plan. how would your rewrite rules look textually. 04:26:00 was that description not clear? :S 04:26:38 the matrix lets you map a pair of ints to a function pointer, the body is just assignments that shuffle around the node ports like the one i wrote 04:26:39 no, it really wasn't. your rules are your code that manipulates this graph structure, yeah? so you need a rule format to load into your interpreter, so you can use those rules to rewrite the interaction net. 04:26:50 no you don't need to load any rules 04:26:54 ???? 04:26:57 -!- gareth__25 has joined. 04:27:03 the interpreter is the rules 04:27:08 why would you "load" anything in to it? 04:27:22 ...how else would I write what it means to append something to a list. 04:27:23 does python "load" the python bytecode format, as if it could run anything else? 04:27:41 -!- gareth__25 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 04:27:43 what is the in-memory representation of that append rule? can you give me a straight answer? 04:27:48 i just wrote it 04:27:52 you wrote some C code. 04:27:53 the assignment above 04:28:05 a bunch of those, shuffling the correct ports from the diagram 04:28:54 so the premise that I'm getting from that document I linked is that I can write rules, lhs and rhs, to rewrite portions of an interaction net. you follow? 04:29:01 s/I linked/you linked 04:29:12 hold on, i've written it in go 04:29:15 a while back 04:29:17 can you read that? 04:29:21 no, just follow me here. 04:29:35 I can write rules like that, yeah? they aren't hard-coded. 04:29:44 why wouldn't you hard code them 04:29:52 does python load rules for other languages very often 04:29:56 this isn't python. 04:30:02 okay, whatever language it is 04:30:07 think about what you're trying to do 04:30:15 you want to write some kind of meta-interpreter for ANY set of rules 04:30:16 lmao, so you just hard code the rules you want. 04:30:17 but why?? 04:30:26 uh, because interaction nets are supposed to be general. 04:30:27 you make the rules that correspond to your language 04:30:34 it's like writing a bytecode interpreter for one lang 04:30:41 lmao. 04:30:45 would you ever want to make a "general" bytecode vm framework 04:30:49 okay, have fun with your interaction nets. 04:30:51 i mean you can, but it's harder 04:31:04 see it's not hard to write a rule-based interpreter. 04:31:15 you load some rules, those rules mutate state. 04:31:22 okay, so what's the problem 04:31:37 you hard-code your rules. I'm asking you to show me what it might look like if you didn't. 04:31:58 you could use a dynamic language and just load more code whenever 04:32:03 yeah nvm lmao. 04:32:14 you're doing it the hard way idgi 04:32:31 that's going to lead to a lot of nasty code for parsing some sad little rule format 04:32:32 how is that the hard way when the document you linked pretty much goes over writing rules for rewriting interaction nets. 04:32:45 because you write the rules, in whatever implementation lang you've chosen 04:33:09 okay, imagine the paper wasn't about interaction nets 04:33:12 it could be about term rewriting 04:33:20 ONE of the examples would be this weird thing called "the lambda calculus" 04:33:25 do I hard-code state tables for TMs when writing a TM interpreter? no, because that'd be fucking dumb. 04:33:27 the lambda calculus is one particular term rewriting system 04:33:34 I load state tables from a file so I can simulate any arbitrary TM. 04:33:46 if nobody's done that for interaction nets then I'd ask why. 04:33:50 you can also just write other state tables in your lang and use things like high order functions to swap them out 04:33:54 people have done it 04:34:15 the thing i was describing was not going in that direction at all, is where the confusion came from i guess 04:34:21 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:34:35 right, I see where you were headed, but if I was just going to hard-code rules I might as well go write a lisp interpreter. 04:34:58 I'd like to see what the more general form would look like, where you could specify "here's what appending looks like." 04:35:09 instead of "here's this nice little language that rides on top of interaction nets but really doesn't need to." 04:35:23 https://bitbucket.org/inarch/ia2d 04:35:59 a notation for writing general rewrite rules 04:36:04 > We write the rule for an active pair between nodes alpha and beta as alpha(x_1, ..., x_n) >< beta(y_1, ..., y_m) => [N], 04:36:06 :1:84: error: parse error on input ‘,’ 04:36:22 I see. 04:36:23 you have a file with a bunch of expressions like that and then load it 04:36:45 they do natural numbers and lists later in that readme 04:37:06 see that's what I was kind of looking for. you'd need variable matching and binding to actually do that. 04:37:23 it all compiles down to what i was talking about earlier though 04:37:34 you would have a universal interaction net that runs this stuff 04:37:40 right, but it still uses things like variables to link up arbitrary ports. 04:37:46 no it doesn't 04:38:11 you can have an interaction net as a compilation target for those rule expressions 04:38:13 which is what they do 04:38:34 anyone here familiar with the Jelly golfing language? <-- i've not learned it, but there's a jelly channel on stackexchange chat 04:38:44 oh stackexchange has a chat? 04:38:58 how exactly do you construct append's rule, then. just explicitly refer to certain ports? 04:39:00 and yeah it does. 04:39:04 someone mentioned the "jelly chat" on their github issues but i didn't know where it was 04:39:27 imode: let's say we have a minimal interaction net called the "inteaction combinators" 04:39:40 we're gonna...gasp...hardcode those rules 04:39:44 :V 04:39:48 then read those expressions and compile them to it 04:40:04 eh. 04:40:39 as a fan of turing machines, you know you can have one that simulates any other 04:40:47 yup. 04:40:56 (not a fan of TMs per se.. maybe string rewriting systems.) 04:41:18 mainly due to movement of large regions of symbols. 04:46:29 https://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/32533/jelly although you need some SE rep to get on there 04:47:16 and it's not extremely active 04:48:03 -!- JStoker20 has joined. 04:48:39 snark exchange 04:52:32 yeah i can't even chat 04:52:36 f 04:53:21 -!- JStoker20 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:58:30 "just answer some questions and you'll have enough rep in no time!" 05:25:00 it may have to be PPCG rep specifically, i'm not sure 05:28:29 opps, i meant "just answer some questions on our low traffic site, where nobody votes, and you'll have enough rep eventually" 05:28:47 tbf, PCG is not really low traffic 05:28:49 but still 05:44:52 -!- tromp has joined. 05:49:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:03:43 -!- sjohnson10 has joined. 06:07:19 -!- sjohnson10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:18:58 -!- exio425 has joined. 06:19:34 -!- j-bot has joined. 06:19:38 -!- exio425 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 06:27:11 -!- grit2 has joined. 06:27:27 -!- grit2 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 06:31:00 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 06:31:25 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:50:44 from the faq i suspect it's not actually just PPCG rep, it's either total SE rep or the highest rep on any SE site. 06:53:52 (also it's just 20) 06:54:29 basically you need two upvotes. 07:01:42 -!- tromp has joined. 07:02:38 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:11:27 -!- qassim0 has joined. 07:11:35 -!- qassim0 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 07:11:56 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 07:28:20 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:51:35 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57300&oldid=57257 * Galaxtone * (+0) Fixed error in syntax for Truth Machine 07:54:33 -!- WhitePhosphorus6 has joined. 07:54:58 -!- WhitePhosphorus6 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 07:55:00 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57301&oldid=57300 * Galaxtone * (-1) Actually fixed syntax, Confused it for a while loop. 07:56:03 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57302&oldid=57296 * Galaxtone * (-2) /* Surtic */ Updated version with proper syntax. 08:01:26 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57303&oldid=57301 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ Ok seriously I triple-checked, This is perfect. 08:02:20 [[Truth-machine]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57304&oldid=57302 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Surtic */ Triple-Checked, Definitely no syntax errors in this. 08:52:16 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57305&oldid=57303 * Galaxtone * (+18) Added a limit for sake of limitations. 08:57:18 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57306&oldid=57305 * Galaxtone * (-18) /* C */ Nevermind on the limitation 09:00:40 -!- interd0me26 has joined. 09:00:50 -!- interd0me26 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 09:14:16 Sgeo_: will we be getting an olist today twh 09:21:49 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:23:23 -!- kline7 has joined. 09:24:01 -!- kline7 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 09:24:42 -!- shreyansh_k10 has joined. 09:24:49 -!- shreyansh_k10 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 09:25:40 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:25:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 09:25:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:25:53 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:35:31 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:36:48 The mercurial ui is so terrible :P (seriously though, why does hg pull -u not do an update when nothing was pulled?) 09:38:14 (This comes up fairly frequently in my usage... I hg pull -u and it refuses to update because some local file is modified ... so I fix that and then I rerun the failing command.) 09:39:32 -!- mundus2018 has joined. 09:39:50 -!- mundus2018 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 09:55:54 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:16:24 -!- cods22 has joined. 10:17:04 -!- cods22 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 10:28:57 -!- ktechmidas has joined. 10:29:02 -!- ktechmidas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:43:03 -!- krushia has joined. 10:49:26 -!- krushia has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 11:01:09 -!- dfgg15 has joined. 11:01:19 -!- dfgg15 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 11:07:18 -!- christophegx has joined. 11:07:26 -!- christophegx has quit (K-Lined). 11:28:25 -!- zz_ka6sox has joined. 11:28:51 -!- zz_ka6sox has quit (K-Lined). 11:29:22 -!- l2y has joined. 11:35:50 -!- l2y has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 12:04:04 -!- Selfsigned7 has joined. 12:09:33 -!- Selfsigned7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 12:11:47 -!- phryxam has joined. 12:11:50 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 12:12:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 12:19:44 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:27:06 -!- trisk14 has joined. 12:27:17 -!- trisk14 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 12:28:21 -!- phryxam has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:33:41 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:10:00 -!- Asoka19 has joined. 13:10:16 -!- Asoka19 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 13:16:05 `olist 1134 13:16:06 olist 1134: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 13:16:41 shachaf, yes 13:26:52 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:46:50 -!- trqx14 has joined. 13:47:08 -!- trqx14 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:16:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:23:20 -!- tromp has joined. 14:27:45 -!- moei has joined. 14:28:15 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57307&oldid=57021 * Wright * (-237) Deleted irrelevant example (also the sentence structure in general was just bugging me) 14:33:05 -!- ecks4 has joined. 14:34:59 -!- ecks4 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:53:26 -!- heroux_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 14:53:44 -!- heroux_ has joined. 15:20:10 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:44:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:51:17 -!- ilbelkyr15 has joined. 15:51:27 -!- ilbelkyr15 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 15:53:52 https://xkcd.com/2031/ 15:55:39 :D 16:01:17 -!- rodarmor22 has joined. 16:01:17 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 16:01:52 -!- rodarmor22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:02:50 -!- n0nada17 has joined. 16:03:33 -!- n0nada17 has quit (K-Lined). 16:05:22 heh 16:10:51 -!- Globalirc21 has joined. 16:10:51 -!- Globalirc21 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 16:17:00 -!- Reincarnate25 has joined. 16:17:11 -!- Reincarnate25 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 16:19:54 -!- erkin has joined. 16:21:25 -!- calcul0n1 has joined. 16:21:41 a lot of lol stuff in the recent ones there 16:21:52 https://xkcd.com/2016/ 16:22:23 -!- calcul0n1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:24:16 -!- cyberzeus2 has joined. 16:24:59 -!- cyberzeus2 has quit (K-Lined). 16:46:29 -!- imode has joined. 16:46:55 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 16:47:09 -!- imode has joined. 16:53:13 -!- myth0d4 has joined. 16:53:46 -!- myth0d4 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 17:06:25 -!- norkle12 has joined. 17:07:35 -!- norkle12 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 17:19:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:40:40 -!- MEPB has joined. 17:40:48 -!- MEPB has quit (K-Lined). 17:55:39 -!- tromp has joined. 18:08:25 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:17:44 Is there a such thing as tsumeshogi-FEN? 18:20:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:28:51 -!- tromp has joined. 18:36:53 -!- XorSwap has joined. 18:38:05 yes seesm to be SFEN 19:13:19 ais523: can i ask you a few questions about the jelly golfing language? specifically about the chain rules 19:13:49 xkapastel: you can try, but I'm not that comfortable with the chain rules 19:14:04 I normally have to reread the tutorial to try to figure it out, in complex cases 19:14:14 the first chain pattern for monadic chains, `+ × 1 ... (v+ω)×1*` 19:14:29 doesn't this follow from the rules for `+` and `+ 1`? 19:14:32 i don't see why it's needed 19:14:50 if you didn't have it, you would chop off `+`, then chop off `x 1` and it would be the same (v+w)*1 19:15:13 it wouldn't surprise me if some of the rules were redundant 19:15:54 also i'm wondering why dyadic chains don't have a rule for `+ F`, is that just because dennis didn't think it was used or becuase it messes something up? 19:16:24 for dyadic chains i see why that first rule would lead to a different value than applying rules for `+` and `+ 1` 19:16:32 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:16:48 because you'd match `+ *` first 19:17:20 xkapastel: dyad chains tend to be awkward to use, I think the original intention was to do it APL-style and use patterns with { and } to do complex things 19:17:25 but that uses so many bytes :-( 19:18:45 i do really like this design though, and i appreciate how it's explained so clearly, as opposed to APL/K which seem to pride themselves on being cryptic 19:19:18 in general I find any working with dyad chains in Jelly is painful, and prefer to use monadic chains for basically everything 19:20:25 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 19:27:48 -!- doaks has joined. 19:27:50 -!- doaks has quit (K-Lined). 19:50:48 -!- ffernand22 has joined. 19:50:57 -!- ffernand22 has quit (K-Lined). 20:09:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:09:54 [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57308&oldid=53838 * HereToAnnoy * (-4) Fixed spacing (I think; I really need a monospace font for this) + Ideas cat 20:44:56 [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57309&oldid=57058 * Wright * (+625) Added entries 21:05:16 -!- dindon29 has joined. 21:09:56 -!- dindon29 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:10:34 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:15:44 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:31:55 -!- OwenBarfield has joined. 21:32:19 -!- OwenBarfield has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 21:39:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:44:44 -!- aloril has joined. 21:44:55 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:54:54 -!- tromp has joined. 21:58:56 -!- lostnord has joined. 21:59:13 -!- lostnord has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 21:59:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:25:58 -!- Guest59621 has joined. 22:26:19 -!- Guest59621 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:32:45 -!- tromp has joined. 22:51:34 -!- Richard_Cavell has joined. 22:51:36 -!- Richard_Cavell has quit (K-Lined). 22:52:45 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:06:52 -!- cronic has joined. 23:08:23 -!- tromp has joined. 23:10:04 -!- boily has joined. 23:11:21 -!- cronic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:12:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:12:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 23:12:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:39:51 fungot: nostril. 23:39:51 boily: what's good about it, but i don't really have much to do 23:41:35 fungot: nostrils are good, but you can still eat pizza. 23:41:35 boily: and i don't have to. 23:41:43 fungot: but you can. 23:41:43 boily: so there are no answers anywhere, i guess. bummer 23:41:59 * boily is more than frightened about fungot's sentience 23:57:38 -!- imode1 has joined. 23:58:35 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2018-08-11: 00:02:49 -!- tromp has joined. 00:02:51 -!- imode1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:03:10 -!- imode has joined. 00:03:21 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:07:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:10:07 fungot: YEOOIIOOIOA 00:10:08 arseniiv: where? i only see 5 00:10:33 fungot: there's more 00:10:33 arseniiv: ok then... seems udage is turing tarpit. power and expressiveness are independent. 00:13:26 YEOOIIOOIOA??? 00:15:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:19:17 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:53:17 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:55:33 How would I implement seeking for a specific ecliptic longitude of a body (or of a Arabic Part)? 00:56:47 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:59:06 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 00:59:52 -!- xkapastel has joined. 01:00:50 -!- aloril has joined. 01:07:47 (Arabic parts have three parameters (called the "personal-point", "significator", and "trigger"). Some use rulers, lords, houses, constants, dispositors, and other Arabic parts, as their parameters. I do not intend to implement any other than the bodies that swe_calc() can calculate, as well as the Asc, MC, and constants 0 Aries and 0 Libra. Note that if the "personal-point" is held constant, you are effectively seeking an aspect.) 01:09:44 (Also, many use reversals, and some use stranger things such as "Lord of New or Full Moon Prior to Birth", "Cusp of House Uranus Occupies", "Use Jupiter if Saturn is combust", "Asc + Moon - (Sun + 144 + Pi)", etc. I don't know what most of these mean, and I also don't care and do not intend to implement any of these things.) 01:15:03 -!- Stryyker12 has joined. 01:15:18 -!- Stryyker12 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:25:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:26:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:38:59 -!- benoliver99925 has joined. 01:39:52 -!- benoliver99925 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 01:44:11 -!- boily has quit (Quit: IMPORT CHICKEN). 01:50:42 -!- tromp has joined. 01:55:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:08:24 I don't like W3C's "Secure Contexts". I read a definition it is one of the four: * An origin using an authenticated scheme (https: or wss:) * An origin on the local computer using IP addresses in 127/8 (IPv4) or ::1/128 (IPv6) * An origin on the local computer using a scheme that the browser considers authenticated (file: and possibly packaged browser extensions) * An origin that the user has "configured as a trustworthy origin", through a us 02:08:48 My own opinion is that only the last one should be considered as a trustworthy origin and the others should not be. 02:27:14 [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57310&oldid=57308 * HereToAnnoy * (+1338) Langauge update (also, is there a grid table or do I have to make really long wikitables every time a program is written in this?) 02:27:42 [[Arrows]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57311&oldid=57310 * HereToAnnoy * (+13) everytime i finish something 02:46:05 -!- u0_a101 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:49:08 -!- u0_a101 has joined. 02:50:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:51:29 -!- ais523 has joined. 03:38:33 -!- tromp has joined. 03:42:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:46:23 -!- nero7 has joined. 03:46:48 -!- nero7 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 04:05:27 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 04:08:43 -!- sleepnap has left. 04:33:16 -!- tromp has joined. 04:37:24 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:42:50 -!- Nakato has joined. 04:43:09 -!- Nakato has changed nick to Guest27715. 04:44:31 -!- Guest27715 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:27:09 -!- tromp has joined. 05:29:17 -!- ProClifo has joined. 05:32:10 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:33:53 -!- ProClifo has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 05:44:57 -!- bads has joined. 05:45:21 -!- bads has changed nick to Guest55883. 05:46:41 -!- Guest55883 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:34:28 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:37:35 -!- jeggott0 has joined. 06:38:42 -!- tromp has joined. 06:39:06 -!- jeggott0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:43:13 any thoughts on baseline syntax needed for a relatively useful out-of-the-box language? I'm thinking var declaration/assignment, arithmetic ops, conditional evaluation, some kind of collection, functions, parens for eval order... 06:43:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:43:43 braces for block scope, function bodies, loops, conditional eval 06:44:11 comparison ops 06:45:10 datatypes maybe bool, number, string, collection, function 06:46:38 any of that unneccessary? anything important missing? 06:49:02 i'm shooting for something reasonably expressive and multi-paradigm, pleasant to use, not something crazy like bf 06:54:05 ...but at the same time as minimal as it can be, for example one kind of loop should be enough (probably a while loop), and one kind of collection (maybe like lua's table?) 07:14:04 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:14:56 -!- erdic has joined. 07:23:17 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 07:32:22 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 07:38:29 -!- tromp has joined. 07:48:36 I think you should need macros and byte arrays. And then is probably good enough I suppose 07:48:59 You might not need boolean type though, but perhaps can help to have null 08:13:31 zzo38: are you thinking preprocessor macros, or something else? 08:14:18 null is a good idea, can probably do away with booleans, null will be falsey and everything else truthy 08:18:33 Yes, that can work. Null is false and everything else can be true. About macros, I thought they could be either preprocessor macros or perhaps dynamic macros (depending on how the rest of the programming language is working); you don't need both 08:25:06 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 08:25:24 I believe you though that one kind of loop will be enough (probably a while loop), and one kind of collection. Possibly the suitable flow-controls can be: if/else, while, goto, and return; nothing else is needed I think. I don't know what is you think though; you can figure out what you like to do it. 08:28:14 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:28:48 -!- erdic has joined. 08:33:58 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:40:34 -!- erdic has joined. 08:41:35 -!- DrJ23 has joined. 08:42:33 -!- DrJ23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:58:32 zzo38: i think you're right... not sure if goto is needed, but probably either goto or break/continue 08:58:56 should be a way to break out of loops without return 09:00:00 it makes me wonder if loops are really necessary, maybe something like a self-recursive function instead 09:01:10 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 09:03:55 -!- GeekDude has joined. 09:05:13 Perhaps, but while and goto (and if/else and return) can make it convenient to program, even though they are not strictly needed. 09:06:30 yeah, for sure 09:08:49 zzo38: sent you a link :) 09:10:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:11:41 -!- Guest74037 has joined. 09:16:22 -!- Guest74037 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:26:56 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:39:03 -!- jwhisnant21 has joined. 09:39:36 -!- jwhisnant21 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 09:41:57 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 09:46:09 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 09:51:50 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:53:56 -!- atslash has joined. 10:04:14 -!- erdic has joined. 10:04:58 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:06:24 -!- tromp has joined. 10:07:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:07:45 -!- tromp has joined. 10:07:47 -!- GeekDude has joined. 10:08:35 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:31:17 -!- erkin has joined. 10:44:26 -!- Random2 has joined. 10:46:34 -!- Random2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:00:59 -!- erdic has joined. 11:23:50 -!- vans12 has joined. 11:30:13 -!- vans12 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:54:29 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 12:00:41 u0_a101: you can try to look at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mouse or ... uh, there was some low-level language intended to be used as an embedded language that can directly access the memory space of the parent process and with like five types of registers and three-letter commands. 12:01:28 zzo38: what was that latter language and wasn't it one of yours? 12:10:54 https://esolangs.org/wiki/CLCLC-INTERCAL WTF, a dialect of Intercal without the unary bitwise operators? that's so strange 12:32:04 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:33:08 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:38:54 idea UTF-0 UTF-1 12:51:37 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 12:59:35 -!- erdic has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:03:20 how would you make that 13:03:49 unary would be easy but stupid, but utf-0? 13:11:32 UTF--1+i 13:11:51 -!- erdic has joined. 13:11:58 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 13:12:12 Taneb: (rofl) 13:13:17 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:47:39 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 13:52:07 -!- BenLand100 has joined. 13:55:35 -!- BenLand100 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:18:40 -!- ForexTrader has joined. 14:19:01 -!- ForexTrader has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 14:24:36 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:32:21 -!- Metacity13 has joined. 14:32:49 -!- Metacity13 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:17:23 There was an UTF-1, but it wasn't 1 as in "one bit", it was 1 as in "first". It's an appendix in the original (1993) ISO-10646, it's a multibyte encoding somewhat similar to UTF-8 except worse. 15:19:56 `quote worse 15:19:57 350) elliott: actually, it's worse right now, I'm in the USA where the solution to counterfeiting problems is "add more ink" eventually all US bills will just be solid green \ 385) No nasty sounds for a while now. Going to turn off and on and see if the numbers get worse. \ 524) You know how the arrow pierces your skin, rearranging and randomizing vital internal structure? Monads are like that, only 15:20:31 `quote 524 15:20:31 524) You know how the arrow pierces your skin, rearranging and randomizing vital internal structure? Monads are like that, only worse. 15:20:44 so much hate 15:23:42 (( 15:24:18 I’ll never try burritos then 15:24:27 if monads are also like them 15:25:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:30:47 Burritos and monads are both quite nice 15:31:07 I wouldn't want to confuse the two. 15:31:08 Although I tend to overfill them 15:31:17 And that just ends up messy 15:33:17 You should try to not have too many at the same time, too, to avoid bloat 15:39:10 So to paraphrase, monads are like burritos; if you stack them too high, the result is inevitably a mess? 15:39:26 Yes 15:39:46 Also a burrito inside a burrito is sometimes but generally not a burrito itself! 15:59:15 is there a ListT burrito which wasn’t done right until some time in the past? 16:12:10 Cale knows all about that I believe 16:31:33 -!- steveeJ20 has joined. 16:35:45 -!- steveeJ20 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 16:46:34 Yeah, the ListT in MTL was (and is) incorrect. 16:47:01 wait, really? 16:47:22 rofl 16:48:00 Yeah, the things it produces are not law-abiding monads unless the monad you give it is commutative, which few monads are. 16:49:26 XD 16:49:28 amazing 16:54:55 -!- majestic25 has joined. 17:00:26 -!- majestic25 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:05:31 how common is it for someone to make a monad named Nock for the lulz? 17:05:44 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:08:38 What is such monad meaning? 17:08:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:14:18 @google "you could have invented hylomorphisms" 17:14:19 No Result Found. 17:14:29 @google google 17:14:30 https://www.google.com/ 17:28:29 zzo38: its up to you to decide that. sometimes, there are names in want of things. 17:35:43 `? zzo38 17:35:44 zzo38 is not actually the next version of fungot, much as it may seem. 17:35:52 fungot: oh 17:35:53 int-e: i tried /topic in a .c file and see what happens :) they are probably talking more like 100 lines here, and then ' fnord' :p. but that doesn't help 17:36:30 (I have not "chatted" with fungot in a while) 17:36:31 int-e: where is the acid? where is it? bye! 17:36:45 fungot: why are you leaving so soon? 17:36:46 int-e: where is lisppaste? i've posted this before i do, be lazy and not check for the extent of your mathematical background. the 1st chapter of sicp. 17:51:19 fungot: I know where the acid is but I won’t tell you :P 17:51:19 arseniiv: are *all* concatenative languages functional? ( no, i'm sure) 17:51:20 -!- MDude has joined. 17:52:17 it's so surreal when fungot almost makes sense 17:52:18 int-e: well the exercise does describe named let adequately i think?) for the ' most jewish' towns in the red river valley, austin, and state indices could be stored 17:53:22 fungot: btw have you gained conscience already 17:53:23 arseniiv: well i could find about it online. but for people who are technically freelancers, but always doubted they really exist in simple examples. :( 17:53:39 yes 17:58:51 -!- ErrantEgo0 has joined. 18:00:42 -!- ErrantEgo0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:01:12 -!- variable has joined. 18:06:35 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:06:52 fungot: как ты относишься к кириллице? 18:06:53 arseniiv: i've heard minion is perpetually disgruntled." i have quite a nice learning environment... 18:07:24 I feared it’d be worse 18:09:48 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:14:19 arseniiv: it might be if fungot actually took context into account 18:14:19 int-e: was that a question in " the call/ cc's 18:27:14 -!- variable has quit (Quit: Found 1 in /dev/zero). 18:31:08 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 18:35:14 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 18:35:52 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 18:38:57 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:49:29 -!- Cale has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:53:02 Are you good at the computer game I put on here a while ago? 19:02:35 -!- xset has joined. 19:02:57 -!- xset has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 19:15:00 -!- imode has joined. 19:16:40 high score 80 in the default mode... I don't think that's good 19:18:04 zzo38: where to find it? 19:20:33 http://zzo38computer.org/GAMES/MEGAPANE.ZIP 19:22:47 .exe :( 19:27:33 runs in dosbox 19:27:58 it's quaint 19:33:17 I will add some more options later 19:33:36 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 19:47:48 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:56:41 int-e: zzo38: 35! 19:57:00 also, basic, really? :o 19:57:53 arseniiv: are you complaining because it's not esoteric enough? :P 19:58:21 no, no 19:59:18 I haven’t seen a classical (Q?)Basic code in, let me think… forever 20:00:30 ah, non-classic, no line numbers 20:00:38 but still not VB either 20:01:07 my first real programs were in VB6(( 20:01:13 Yes, it is written in BASIC. The source codes are public domain so you can do what you want with it (although the executable file may be copyright by Microsoft). That is what I use when writing programs on DOS (for native programs on Linux I use C). While there are some free BASIC compilers, they should be enhanced to support some of the commands they currently don't and support real mode 20:01:55 zzo38: also interesting game idea 20:02:34 uh I accidently reached 311 20:02:43 :oo 20:03:20 (and I mean that... I felt out of control the whole time) 20:04:00 44 at the second time 20:04:12 I think it’s pointless for me to continue :D 20:04:57 http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/mph.png 20:06:19 (this is not a random file name: mph = mega pane highscore) 20:06:42 arseniiv: 44 is a more normal score :) 20:07:29 I feel a bit too slow for this game still 20:08:24 I like the solitaire mode that you get if you press "T" once 20:08:51 (where the board moves up every 8 moves you make) 20:08:55 -!- erkin has joined. 20:09:18 oh, I’ve missed that! 20:12:51 actually this part of the game is quite advanced... you can select a preset (0-9), change the settings, save it, and then it'll start recording highscores for that setting 20:13:29 reminds me remotely of the good old blockout game 20:13:40 50 on default solitaire 20:23:40 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting for new kernel). 20:24:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:25:53 -!- FreeFull has joined. 20:28:43 -!- Cale has joined. 20:36:18 -!- lutki_ has joined. 20:38:04 -!- lutki_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:47:56 @messages? 20:47:56 Sorry, no messages today. 20:52:42 > let act i j = lift (tell [i]) `mplus` lift (tell [j]); x = snd . runWriter . runListT in (x (act 1 2 >> (act 3 4 >> act 5 6)), x ((act 1 2 >> act 3 4) >> act 5 6)) 20:52:43 error: 20:52:43 Variable not in scope: runListT :: a1 -> Writer c a0 20:52:56 @let import Control.Monad.List 20:52:57 Defined. 20:52:59 > let act i j = lift (tell [i]) `mplus` lift (tell [j]); x = snd . runWriter . runListT in (x (act 1 2 >> (act 3 4 >> act 5 6)), x ((act 1 2 >> act 3 4) >> act 5 6)) 20:53:01 ([1,2,3,4,5,6,5,6,3,4,5,6,5,6],[1,2,3,4,3,4,5,6,5,6,5,6,5,6]) 20:54:16 no messages today my love is gone away, the λ-bot stands forlorn a symbol of the dawn 20:54:53 qq 20:55:41 int-e: is @let global to all lambdabot? 20:55:57 all of* 20:56:17 @undef 20:56:18 Undefined. 20:56:19 arseniiv: yes 20:56:31 zzo38: something you said earlier had me briefly playing with the idea of a super-goto that could also pass values, and be returned to, receiving a value... but i gave up on that after about 30 minutes 20:56:56 -!- ErrantEgo14 has joined. 20:56:56 That seem would be difficult to implement, it seem to me. 20:57:18 yeah, i think you'd have to keep a stack of them to return 20:57:37 int-e: what one does when some imports are interfering with something, is there a way to un-import? 20:58:20 -!- ErrantEgo14 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:58:22 actually goto seems hard to implement in general... how do you handle skipping past a var declaration, etc 20:59:05 arseniiv: @undef resets all @let commands 20:59:17 @where L.hs 20:59:17 what lambdabot has in scope is at http://silicon.int-e.eu/lambdabot/State/Pristine.hs 20:59:42 Yes, I do know of difficulties of implementing goto, but one way is to just disallow jumping past a variable declaration. Some programming language expect variable declarations at the beginning of a block, and if you cannot jump into a block then that is automatically the case. 20:59:54 arseniiv: @let adds stuff to a file L.hs; @undef copies Pristine.hs to L.hs, overwriting all @let changes 21:00:17 it's all very well designed and userfriendly. :P 21:00:18 u0_a101: all declarations within a block could be treated as its inseparable traits, occurring in the same code with runnable instructions only because of a, let’s say, “bad” design 21:00:57 int-e: it's all very well designed and userfriendly. :P => I see :::: 21:01:14 @let import qualified Control.Monad.List as CML 21:01:16 Defined. 21:01:30 > let t = lift . tell . (:[]); a i j = t i `mplus` t j; x = snd . runWriter . CML.runListT in (x (a 1 2 >> (t 3 >> t 4)), x ((a 1 2 >> t 3) >> t 4)) 21:01:32 ([1,2,3,4,3,4],[1,2,3,3,4,4]) 21:02:31 there could be an interesting er… game when someone privately sends @undef to lambdabot in the heat of someone else building a complex machiery in the chat 21:02:59 Anyway this is how ListT is broken: The order of effects of the base monad may change with the bracketing of >> (or >=>), breaking the corresponding associative law. 21:03:36 arseniiv: it has caused surprisingly few problems so far... people cope. 21:03:43 Yes, so it only transforms some monads and not all of them. 21:03:58 So it is not a real monad transfomer and only is partial 21:04:36 int-e: seems reasonable. Also I was half-joking :D 21:04:54 :t StateT IO 21:04:55 error: 21:04:55 • Data constructor not in scope: IO :: s -> m (a, s) 21:04:55 • Perhaps you meant ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted) 21:05:12 :k StateT IO 21:05:12 arseniiv: so, hoisting var declarations to top of block basically? i'f im understanding you right? 21:05:13 error: 21:05:13 • Expecting one more argument to ‘IO’ 21:05:13 Expected a type, but ‘IO’ has kind ‘* -> *’ 21:05:19 :k StateT IO Integer 21:05:20 error: 21:05:20 • Expecting one more argument to ‘IO’ 21:05:21 Expected a type, but ‘IO’ has kind ‘* -> *’ 21:05:25 :k StateT (IO Integer) 21:05:26 (* -> *) -> * -> * 21:05:44 :k IO Integer 21:05:46 * 21:06:13 u0_a101: yep, or think of declarations inside a runnable block like a nops 21:06:38 arseniiv: http://hackage.haskell.org/package/logict is "ListT done properly" borrowing from Cont (Codensity, Yoneda, yada-yada). 21:07:14 It also gets rid of the lists. 21:07:43 arseniiv: hmm, interesting idea :) 21:07:57 I've been having my own thoughts about things like error handling, backtracking, select(2), and the like 21:08:10 I think that there's a way to do it correctly, from a programmer's point of view 21:08:20 You could also disallow jumping to a label if there is a variable declaration between the goto and label 21:08:21 they are “runned” before all explicit runnable statements do, notwithstanding goto jumps, like a finalizer in try…finally statements is run after something almost always, even if something was thrown 21:08:21 and monads are heavily involved, but it's not quite the same 21:08:44 I think what you need is to collapse the whole mess of monads and monad transformers into a single universal monad that does everything 21:09:36 (unless the declaration in inside of a block that you are jumping out of.) 21:10:07 u0_a101: also it combines well with freedom to declare things precisely where you need them, and with lexical scoping too 21:10:52 zzo38: i think this is what lua does 21:11:07 Maybe; I don't know much about what Lua does. 21:11:09 can't jump past var declaration 21:11:10 one big inspiration is that ? from Rust is basically just do-notation, but nicer 21:11:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:11:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:11:24 Rust's x = a? is equivalent to Haskell's x <- a 21:11:34 also label must be visible to goto, lexically 21:11:39 or, well, except that Rust ? only supports Option and Either, making it easier to implement 21:12:07 int-e: seems I heard of it. Ah I wish I used Haskell more frequently 21:12:09 I guess ? is a postfix operator here? 21:12:26 or, hmm 21:12:30 Well, you should be allowed to jump past a variable declaration as long as you are jumping outside of the block where that variable declaration is. And, yes, of course the label must be visible to goto, too. 21:12:41 or is that, including the assignment, a single syntactic form? 21:13:21 FireFly: yes, it's a postfix operator 21:14:43 in Rust, it's results in x if its argument is Ok(x), x if its argument is Just(x), and if neither of those is the case, it exits the entire function, returning its argument unchanged 21:14:53 (assuming I got the syntax right there, I don't really know Rust) 21:15:16 the semantics are not quite right 21:15:20 but I personally see ? as more of a "convert the rest of the function into a lambda" operator 21:16:03 like, { f; a?; g } ends up being converted to { f; a.map(|| g) } 21:16:16 err 21:16:28 { f; x = a?; g } ends up being converted to { f; a.map(|x| g) } 21:16:43 where |x| is "lambda x." 21:16:53 this is exactly the same thing Haskell do-notation does 21:17:11 or, well, it's not /quite/ the same; do-notation is flatMap (i.e. >>=), not regular map 21:17:28 smalltalk forever 21:18:00 (I believe that's where the || notation comes from.) 21:18:25 ah interesting, I associate it with Ruby 21:18:55 anyway, it strikes me that most existing languages/APIs are very bad at common tasks like waiting for one of two unrelated events to happen 21:18:55 ais523: hmm 21:19:23 "wait until someone clicks the mouse or a particular socket receives a network packet" is very difficult with most programming frameworks 21:19:27 * FireFly nods 21:19:27 ais523: erlang should be good at that 21:19:48 well, the general solution involves a multiple threads and a blocking queu 21:19:54 *blocking queue 21:20:12 Yes, and SDL is also bad at that since not all events are SDL events and SDL can't give you a file descriptor for its events (although Xlib can). 21:20:14 I think this is the main reason threading became popular 21:20:23 The most recent case of "that sounds like monadic bind" for me is JS and "await" I think (well, I guess promises in general) 21:20:37 FireFly: yes, promises are a special case of this pattern too 21:21:46 JavaScript also has generator functions too 21:21:57 I think a well-designed language would use promises for all input, and have an any() operator/function that returned the value of whichever promise completed first, and blocked until one of them did 21:22:00 with appropriate error handling 21:22:20 what we get instead is a lot of ad-hoc select/poll/epoll calls 21:22:45 the UNIX way is to make everything a file descriptor; that's workable, but as zzo38 says, most libraries abstract things away from that model and have no way to abstract-invert them back into it 21:22:56 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 21:23:08 haskell isn't terrible for this either... depending on your taste, using STM or using its light-weight threads (possibly hidden behind an abstraction like the 'parallel' package) 21:23:37 JS has a Promise.all which is a [Promise a] -> Promise [a] function that waits for all of them to complete; a buncha libraries had a Promise.race but I don't think it ended up being a standard thing ("wait until any settles, then settle with its value") 21:23:47 But you could implement it as a library function of course 21:24:12 FireFly: well, this is what an event loop is, effectively 21:24:14 in that case you could do like, const thing = await Promise.race([thing1, thing2]) which is kinda decent? 21:24:15 It's the OS interface that tends to be awful. (select, epoll... OS threads are usually too expensive) 21:24:18 API-wise 21:24:24 ais523: sure 21:24:27 you'd want the other, unfinished promises to continue though 21:24:38 this is what LogicT calls msplit 21:24:41 hm this is true 21:24:42 ais523: This sounds similar to the language I was talking about recently with things that affect the rest of the scope. 21:25:02 I guess "head" would be a good name, because list terminology seems to be what people have settled on for monads 21:25:02 JSZM uses generator functions for all I/O (it does not implement I/O itself; the application program must handle it; JSZM is only a library) 21:25:28 Which ended up being pretty SSAy, which is similar to CPS/monads. 21:25:39 Not all monads are list monads, although some have features like list monads, so in that case I suppose "head" seem good 21:25:52 zzo38: right, this is just about naming 21:26:19 Yes, for monads that are like list monads you can use the names for those features like those for lists. 21:26:21 people find "map" quite intuitive on general monads, for example 21:27:11 Yes, that applies to all monads. 21:28:00 naming things makes them easier to learn; I think most people have more of an intuitive idea of "flatMap" (i.e. map then flatten) than they do of ">>=", even though they're the same operation 21:28:11 (btw, is there a standard name for monad flattening?) 21:28:22 Multiplication? 21:28:54 @hoogle Monad m => m (m x) -> m x 21:28:55 Control.Monad join :: (Monad m) => m (m a) -> m a 21:28:55 Streaming join :: Monad m => m (m a) -> m a 21:28:55 Haxl.Prelude join :: Monad m => m (m a) -> m a 21:28:59 oh, "join" 21:29:22 Oh, in Haskell. Sure. 21:29:25 I mean, "flatten" would make sense to me if you call flatMap that? 21:29:31 right 21:29:41 I guess "join" sort-of makes sense on lists but it seems misleading for other things 21:30:05 But there's this spawn :: IO a -> IO (IO a) thing 21:30:07 @source Control.Monad.join 21:30:08 Unknown command, try @list 21:30:13 @src Control.Monad.join 21:30:13 Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over. 21:30:14 :t (runIdentity .) . traverse . (Identity .) 21:30:14 Which spawns a thing in a thread and gives you and IO value you can use to wait for the result. 21:30:15 Traversable t => (a -> b) -> t a -> t b 21:30:16 @src Control.Monad join 21:30:16 Source not found. My mind is going. I can feel it. 21:30:25 There the name "join" matches the use of "join" in multithreading. 21:30:26 Still "join" is one of those operation of all monads, not only lists 21:30:56 shachaf: the thread "join" is bizarrely named too, though; it's more like "wait for termination and take the value" 21:31:09 zzo38: yes 21:31:09 Yes. 21:31:22 But it's funny that it ends up working in that context. 21:31:22 I personally think of monads as being formed of map, join, return 21:31:25 @src join 21:31:26 join x = x >>= id 21:31:31 (not part of the class) 21:31:53 haha, because Haskell treats >>= as the primitive, join is implemented by flatMap id 21:31:55 ais523: I mean, it kind of makes sense as a name, since you have two threads of execution, and it joins them into one, by waiting for one of them to terminate? 21:31:55 @src [] (>>=) 21:31:56 xs >>= f = concatMap f xs 21:31:56 Yes, that's the standard definition. 21:32:01 @src Maybe (>>=) 21:32:02 (Just x) >>= k = k x 21:32:02 Nothing >>= _ = Nothing 21:32:08 well "joins" in the sense of a drawn graph 21:32:17 yes, it's the opposite of "fork" 21:32:45 so join xs = xs >>= id = concatMap id xs = concat (map id xs) = concat xs 21:33:00 for lists. 21:33:53 hmm, I assume Haskell doesn't have a Lazy monad because it's lazy anyway? 21:34:03 laziness is a monad too, though 21:34:31 actually I guess it's just the identity monad in Haskell 21:34:36 Agda has a partiality monad. 21:34:48 I guess that's pretty different. 21:51:56 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:53:15 I think someone mention that a new feature in GHC can be made to treat both >>= and join as primitive and whichever one you do not define will be defined automatically by other one. 22:04:22 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:14:30 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:33:16 -!- tromp has joined. 22:37:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:57:18 -!- w3stside15 has joined. 22:58:48 -!- w3stside15 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:18:23 -!- tromp has joined. 23:22:41 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 23:54:17 -!- gareth__24 has joined. 23:54:46 -!- gareth__24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2018-08-12: 00:01:17 I think that, instead of HPKP, can be TLS-PKP, which is not specific to HTTP(S) and can be used with any protocol. Additionally there is no sending reporting (although a program may display the report to the user if implemented, it doesn't automatically send it anywhere and the protocol has no specification as to where to send it anyways. There is also no mandatory backup pinning, and the user MUST have the ability to configure/disable/override TL 00:08:28 [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57312&oldid=57264 * Hakerh400 * (+16) Added link to cat program 00:11:30 (Specifically, the "includeSubDomains" and "report-uri" fields in HPKP would not be available for TLS-PKP, although the key and duration are included, and that is all.) 00:12:43 -!- tromp has joined. 00:16:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:27:57 `? twh 00:27:58 twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand. 00:28:14 Why can't I /msg HackEso? 00:31:13 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:38:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:46:34 -!- boily has joined. 01:03:11 -!- kepler_mach12 has joined. 01:08:05 -!- kepler_mach12 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:13:21 Did I mention that I figured out what "break" and "continue" really are? 01:13:29 maybe. 01:13:39 outer: { while(p) { inner: { ... } } } 01:13:48 "break" means "break outer", and "continue" means "break inner" 01:19:48 shachaf: You might have +R on? I think Freenode auto-set that to everyone because of the spam. 01:20:01 I haven't had the chance to make HackEso register itself to services. 01:20:13 Maybe when I get back from here. 01:20:28 Oh, right, you're here. 01:20:51 I guess I'm +R 01:20:58 That explains why I haven't been getting /msg spam anymore. 01:21:14 I un-R'd myself, and there's been spam every now and then. 01:21:21 Though for the last few hours it's been quiet. 01:22:39 whoops, i missed a wikipedia day 01:22:53 i thought i'd opened the tab before going to bed. 01:24:30 There was someone biking a gBike through downtown Mountain View in broad daylight. :/ 01:24:46 gasp 01:25:18 bonsœøirjan, helloochaf, fiziello. 01:25:20 what's R? 01:25:30 `? r 01:25:31 r? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 01:25:38 p. sure it's an esolang 01:26:36 boily: A usermode you can set to not receive private messages from unregistered users. 01:27:28 oh. I like that. 01:29:54 b'daily 01:30:18 are you wishing boily a bad day tdnh 01:30:30 hm 01:30:37 What do you think "the full set" means? 01:30:48 John Baez thinks its the one-element set but that seems fishy to me. 01:30:55 wat 01:31:01 It seems more likely to be the universe. 01:31:09 s/its/it's/ 01:31:37 you'd think. 01:33:22 The half-empty set may actually be the half-full set if you're an optimist. 01:33:29 oerjan: Don't you? 01:55:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:00:50 -!- tromp has joined. 02:02:28 -!- aloril has joined. 02:05:54 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:13:48 -!- RumpledElf18 has joined. 02:14:50 -!- RumpledElf18 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:19:08 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CURVY CHICKEN). 02:20:34 -!- pierte has joined. 02:21:31 -!- pierte has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:41:36 -!- sophiya has joined. 02:42:36 -!- sophiya has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:51:33 -!- Chew18 has joined. 02:52:35 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:57:50 -!- Chew18 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 03:06:22 -!- imode has joined. 03:29:29 -!- nedbat5 has joined. 03:31:14 -!- nedbat5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:48:29 -!- tromp has joined. 03:53:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:13:32 -!- Gregor has quit (Quit: Coyote finally caught me). 04:33:43 http://www.supermegacomics.com/index.php?i=80 04:33:48 so many good super megas i forgot about 04:37:21 -!- u0_a101 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:44:34 -!- Gregor has joined. 04:54:27 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:55:13 How can you get a hair cut if you do not have any hair (whether due to your species or due to your baldness)? That is what happened in a GURPS game I played. 04:55:27 you can get someone else's hair cut 04:56:11 O, OK. 04:58:25 -!- aloril has joined. 05:12:04 -!- u0_a101 has joined. 05:22:33 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:22:33 -!- FireFly has quit (Quit: Goodbye). 05:26:23 -!- FireFly has joined. 05:34:11 -!- u0_a101 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:36:21 -!- tromp has joined. 05:41:05 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:51:27 -!- u0_a101 has joined. 06:03:02 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:38:55 -!- tromp has joined. 06:38:59 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:39:14 -!- tromp has joined. 07:11:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 07:27:01 -!- danil has joined. 07:30:49 -!- bray90820_ has joined. 07:30:54 -!- bray90820_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:32:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:02:11 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 08:03:06 -!- j-bot has joined. 08:03:23 -!- danil has joined. 08:06:27 -!- grumble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 08:07:23 -!- grumble has joined. 08:12:30 -!- pk1213 has joined. 08:12:41 -!- pk1213 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:15:03 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 08:18:27 -!- danil has joined. 08:19:25 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 08:19:37 -!- danil has joined. 08:21:57 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 08:26:27 -!- danil has joined. 08:28:09 [[Reversible Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57313&oldid=45694 * Oerjan * (+3778) Algorithms for building up to a stack with unbounded cells 08:28:20 *MWAHAHAHA* 08:28:38 now time to either eat or shave 08:29:38 -!- danil has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:29:47 -!- danil has joined. 08:29:55 -!- danil has quit (Client Quit). 08:30:30 -!- danil has joined. 08:32:49 * oerjan should probably get that code tested at some point. 08:52:40 -!- atslash has joined. 09:18:56 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:20:40 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:35:39 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 09:53:49 -!- danil has quit (Quit: danil). 10:03:25 Celebrate Zaraday 10:09:17 -!- erkin has joined. 10:22:31 -!- salamanderrake has joined. 10:22:46 -!- salamanderrake has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:31:58 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:37:50 -!- infernix24 has joined. 10:38:25 -!- infernix24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:32:57 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 12:00:13 -!- zseri has joined. 12:12:47 -!- Dominian23 has joined. 12:13:27 -!- Dominian23 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:16:05 -!- Evidlo10 has joined. 12:22:08 -!- Evidlo10 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:38:35 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:42:16 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:47:58 hello; does somebody know a study on defining a space of possible human voice timbres (with any assumptions and restrictions)? Particularly some analysis of formant values that make a timbre human-ish, or some measure of “humanness” of an arbitrary timbre 12:48:00 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:49:10 I know acoustic part of phonetics relies on formant values so the question shouldn’t be at all unresearched 12:53:56 -!- TingPing5 has joined. 12:54:29 -!- TingPing5 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 13:17:46 -!- ascheel0 has joined. 13:18:13 -!- ascheel0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:26:31 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:38:05 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:40:21 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:41:55 -!- Gregor has joined. 13:42:01 -!- j-bot has joined. 13:58:07 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:04:47 -!- bigpresh7 has joined. 14:09:46 -!- bigpresh7 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 14:27:14 -!- tromp has joined. 14:31:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:55:29 -!- MeiR has joined. 14:55:34 -!- MeiR has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:07:18 -!- tromp has joined. 15:11:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:18:40 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:23:49 -!- musician_pro has joined. 15:25:34 -!- musician_pro has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:03:05 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:04:30 -!- Fogity has joined. 16:17:07 -!- Shibe8 has joined. 16:18:34 -!- Shibe8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:23:57 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 16:24:26 -!- Fogity has joined. 16:38:42 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:54:45 -!- tromp has joined. 17:03:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:10:36 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:21:18 -!- tromp has joined. 17:26:19 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 17:31:21 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:32:51 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:34:13 -!- Gregor has joined. 17:43:12 -!- j-bot has joined. 17:47:35 -!- benoliver9992 has joined. 17:47:56 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:48:51 -!- Gregor has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:49:17 -!- benoliver9992 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:50:46 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:50:47 -!- Gregor has joined. 17:56:37 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:05:20 -!- imode has joined. 18:10:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:13:41 still got it: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/4096.png 18:35:01 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:59:39 -!- tromp has joined. 19:33:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:31 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:34:49 -!- mundus2018 has joined. 20:34:59 -!- mundus2018 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:36:31 -!- j-bot has joined. 21:14:23 -!- steveeJ19 has joined. 21:16:03 -!- steveeJ19 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:33:05 -!- erkin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:35:29 -!- enyc9 has joined. 21:35:45 -!- enyc9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:43:04 -!- eldritch26 has joined. 21:44:32 -!- eldritch26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:02:05 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 22:03:38 does anyone have any tricks on creating a binary encoding for an AST where every bitstring is valid? 22:03:47 -!- gurmble has joined. 22:03:48 arseniiv: sorry, I'm rather busy with new stuff that came up just this weekend, as well as the usual old stuff, but I will at some point watch the whole video (russian cursive), even the parts where you start writing more impatiently. 22:04:11 -!- grumble has quit (Killed (rajaniemi.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))). 22:04:11 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 22:04:21 arseniiv: it doesn't bother me too much that the writing is getting ugly. my writing is ugly as hell anyway. as long as it doesn't get as bad as a doctor's, it's fine. 22:05:21 I probably won't learn to write exactly that sort of cursive, but at least will figure out some variant I can write for myself that I can read, probably with the letters often disjoint (which is how I write Hungarian too if I want to make it readable for people other than me, and even then it's not very readable, but native speakers can divine a lo 22:05:21 t from the context) 22:05:50 I'm still glad that your video seems to make the underlying logic clear, and how it works totally backwards from the hungarian cursive 22:06:42 xkapastel: I have thought of thing like that before, but do not remember. 22:10:09 shachaf:`outer: { while(p) { inner: { ... } } } / "break" means "break outer", and "continue" means "break inner"` => it is something like that, but your labels are in the wrong place 22:11:43 "How can you get a hair cut if you do not have any hair (whether due to your species or due to your baldness)?" => some video games have haircut salons that change your hair graphics to your choice among the available styles. it can grow your hair. 22:12:06 it's an acceptible break from realism since due to limitations of the game, your hair won't just naturally grow. the hairstyles are fixed and small in number. 22:12:26 And yes, people often have their kid's hair cut. 22:12:33 OK, although this is not a computer game 22:12:48 shachaf is right. 22:13:47 Yes, it is, although it may not be applicable here. 22:17:18 wob_jonas: C doesn't have labeled break, so there's no canonical place for the label to go in this syntax 22:17:26 xkapastel: oh god nice problem. I see only a boring ineffective solution (order bitstrings in some way and the same for trees, and map corresponding ones) 22:17:40 shachaf: yes, but where you put it is definitely wrong 22:17:53 arseniiv: bonus if every bitstring is a unique AST 22:18:02 In my syntax I'd put it in a different place 22:18:10 i think this is the setup i want for program synthesis 22:18:14 But where would you put it? 22:18:16 wob_jonas: okay. I can assure it won’t devolve to doctor’s :D 22:18:22 shachaf: oh wait, you say "break outer" and "break inner", not "goto outer" and "goto inner" 22:18:24 sorry 22:18:49 Yes, those are meant to be labeling the blocks 22:19:50 I'd explain it the way it's defined, like while(p) { loop body; inner: } outer:; and then "break;" means "goto outer;" and "continue;" means "goto inner;" but of course it can bind to other control structures than while 22:20:22 I guess the way you told it works too 22:20:32 I'm just tired and didn't notice that you translated them to labeled break 22:20:37 Well, C doesn't even support break from arbitrary blocks 22:20:45 Nor any other language? 22:20:47 goto are the natural control structures in my mind, not break 22:21:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:21:15 I agree, goto are the natural control structures rather than break 22:21:32 shachaf: perl sort of does, and now rust does too, at least arbitrary labeled blocks, at least if it goes outwards, and doesn't go through the boundary of a function body or lambda body 22:21:53 Rust has it for arbitrary blocks? 22:21:59 but break are nice control structures too in practice, and rust now encourages them 22:22:05 shachaf: or will have it soon, I'm not sure 22:22:12 xkapastel: yeah, my dull solution gives that (if one understands “order” as I did here—mathematically, so in increasing sequence any element would be met once at max) 22:22:12 it might not be implemented yet, but I think it's accepted 22:22:25 shachaf: I'm a bit tired and unsure, ask on mozilla #rust if you want to know 22:22:32 you know the place 22:23:19 in any case you could have already used a `'label loop{body; break returnvalue}` instead of a bare block 22:23:38 which is why the rust guys could determine that breaks on bare loops aren't too dangerous 22:23:50 there could be even useful optimizations (order strings lexicographically, it’s quite computable in both directions; order trees in some way lexicographically too, and inverting *this* is then a challenge, but in some cases it could be easy) 22:24:22 they still had to make sure not to change the behavior of existing unlabeled break, so you can only use a _labeled_ break for a bare block 22:25:41 and it's of course possible that they'll only implement this for the rewritten liveness checker (whatever that thing is called) in rustc, so you might have to wait a tad bit more, I dunno 22:25:45 ask the rust guys really 22:26:27 (any datatypes occuring in nodes should be, of course, also ordered for the latter to work, and a lexicographic order, recursively, is a natural choice then) 22:27:25 so I don't know about the status, but the rust guys figured that allowing labeled break from bare blocks is the Right Thing To Do, and will do so eventually if they haven't done it yet 22:28:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:28:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 22:28:37 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:31:38 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 22:33:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:38:21 -!- imode has joined. 22:49:40 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 22:51:11 In this GURPS game someone said the king insisted we all get our hair cut at a specific barber, even though two of us have no hair. 22:52:04 -!- Ceber has joined. 22:53:55 -!- Ceber has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:00:03 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in). 23:00:21 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:26:05 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:27:59 cool, someone implemented brainfuck as a cellular automaton: http://www.conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3277 23:28:57 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:29:57 -!- eth212 has joined. 23:30:06 -!- eth212 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:33:33 -!- imode has joined. 23:39:20 -!- Melvar has joined. 23:51:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:57:03 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:57:33 -!- MDude has joined. 23:58:11 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:59:39 zzo38: well, sometimes kings can afford to give you orders that might waste some of your time. at least it doesn't sound too dangerous to go to the barber and tell him to get the haircut on the king's order, or at least not more dangerous because you don't have any hair. 2018-08-13: 00:00:32 If it's a code for the barber to kill you, you're screwed. If it's just an unnecessary order because the king won't micromanage you, the barber will just skip that part. 00:01:18 zzo38: You can certainly have all your hair cut if you have no hair. 00:01:24 It could be worse. You could be a soldier under a commanding officer that gives you stupid orders all the time. 00:01:25 Maybe that's the implication. 00:01:44 You can only have some of your hair cut if you have some hair, though. 00:03:23 Ah, of course, I suppose so, that can be sense 00:08:44 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:11:04 -!- aloril has joined. 00:16:57 evolve a brainfuck program to put the largest number possible on a tape with bignums 00:17:31 a program synthesis benchmark due to chaitin: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/7370/00d9e2ea2a1ae9829b681b402831d5f0e3a3.pdf 00:18:46 if i'm understanding this correctly, that's a good "hard problem" to compare synthesis methods since it requires you to evolve modularity 00:21:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 00:23:00 ais! 00:24:08 re: control structures, I find a very commonly used control structure is "attempt to do X, if it succeeds, continue, if it fails, do some cleanup and try again" 00:24:11 ais523: "or, well, except that Rust ? only supports Option and Either" => it will be a bit more general than that technically, applying to more types, but not really more expressive. still just allows to write early exits like you can do with an Either, but with more general types 00:24:17 this is hard to express in terms of the usual control structures 00:24:54 ais523: If you support general monads, do you impose an order of execution on expressions? 00:25:02 f(x?, y?) and so on. 00:25:27 shachaf: you have to 00:25:39 either that or declare it unspecified 00:25:45 Right. 00:26:20 ais523: um, I write stuff like that with loops. like, for example, when my cbstream bot fails to retrieve the answer from perlmonks, it logs the error, sometimes switches to another webserver (there's three of them), and sleeps for a while, then retries. but the whole thing about querying the server is in a loop anyway, it's just different actions 00:26:20 after when it succeeds and when it fails. 00:27:03 I was wondering whether to do that. 00:27:42 wob_jonas: what specific sort of loop? 00:27:54 in particular, what's the control condition? 00:28:13 ais523: an infinite one, mostly. let me check. there's some fatal errors that break out of the whole thing. 00:28:43 it's not really a good example of coding. the whole thing is over ten years old and very obsolete and ripe for a rewrite. 00:28:46 right, my current idiom for this is while (true) { try; if (success) break; cleanup; } 00:28:56 but that doesn't seem like a good fit for a while loop at all 00:29:04 I think it's some new control structure that hasn't been named yet 00:29:06 and I will have to rewrite because "for over ten years with over twenty users" sounds good on my CV 00:30:25 or at least work a lot on it so it works 00:30:35 (it would still be obsolete, mind you) 00:30:47 but the perlmonks server is worse 00:31:14 it's horribly unsecure from the user's point of view, at least I think, although I never really wrote a proof of concept exploit 00:31:38 but it would need some major fixes too and the perlmonks gods are too busy to do that too 00:32:49 So, the loop I'm talking about is a loop do; ... end which is an infinite loop 00:34:28 -!- puck has quit (Quit: *eh*). 00:35:19 so, "http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/cbstream/#can_i_get_the_source_of_cbstream" , 00:35:50 this loop is just one ruby thread by the way. the body starts with timed condition variable wait loop, which in normal operation amounts to a sleep 30, but the sleep amount varies if there are errors, and it can be woken up early if someone sends a message from irc to perlmonks, 00:36:28 then it checks for the emergency stop button (for which some perlmonks operators have a password), 00:36:33 -!- puckipedia has joined. 00:36:35 then it does the http query to perlmonks, 00:37:34 then it parses the reply (which could also cause a retriable error, but this shouldn't normally happen; it used to because of a misunderstanding between what format perlmonks thought it sends and what I received but I'd cleaned that up, so it should only happen in the very rare case if the reply gets truncated), 00:37:53 -!- Guest8451 has joined. 00:38:03 errors during the http query itself do happen sometimes though, and are retriable. 00:38:33 most of them, anyway. there's some that are fatal, on purpose, so the perlmonks admins can use that to kill cbstream too. 00:39:13 anyway, then the success or error and the time the query took and the current time is logged, then on success if any messages were found they're sent to the other thread through a queue so it can print them on irc, 00:39:33 -!- puckipedia has changed nick to puck. 00:39:36 and that's the whole loop in the retreive from perlmonks thread. 00:41:46 there are three other threads, one to send messages to perlmonks when someone writes the message on irc, one to read from irc, and one to write from irc. 00:41:50 these are ruby threads, not OS threads. 00:42:10 and there's some initialization code before the four threads start. 00:42:44 -!- Guest8451 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:45:49 As for those event abstraction libraries, I'm partial to schmorp's libev, at least if you're not targeting win32, but any unix. It handles a lot of details about the better kernel interfaces each unix comes up to replace select/poll, of which there are several in various brands in unix. 00:46:08 It can't hide all the details, so you have to read the manual carefully, but it's still a pretty well done library. 00:46:34 At least if you are willing to read a well-written manual. 00:46:51 Since you write esolang specs, you probably are willing. 00:47:13 For win32, I do not recommend it. There's some win32 compatibility, but frankly, win32 is just so different and that's not what libev was made for. 00:48:46 Only difficulty is, its interface is a really C-like one, optimized for the case when you want to write a high-performance server watching many file descriptors at the same time, and you can write code that doesn't corrupt memory or cause undefined behavior by calling C libraries wrong. 00:49:12 win32 has WaitForMultipleObjects which is a really good idea but it's incompatible with a decent proportion of what you'd want to use it for 00:49:15 But if that's what you want, the interface is well designed, and the manual is well written, the implementation is good, and schmorp reacts to sane questions. 00:50:14 I can't really tell much about win32. I do a fair share of work on win32, but not the part where I have to write programs that have to deal with the unique ... difficulties of win32. 00:51:02 And schmorp doesn't program on win32 either, he writes programs for unices, so he doesn't write libraries that help win32 much. 00:52:09 Frankly, avoiding having to deal with the unique parts of win32 is a good life choice. 00:52:18 yes 00:52:25 I pretty much gave up on Windows when win16 became obsolete 00:52:50 Windows prides itself on its backwards compatibility, but it isn't actually as compatible as all that 00:53:01 When was that? 00:53:03 well, it did become a bit better since the older 00:53:06 um 00:53:06 despite Microsoft's best efforts, things break, and trying to develop new programs to old APIs is really hard 00:53:10 since XP, let's say 00:53:22 shachaf: old win16 functionality started breakinh around win95-win98 00:53:27 although it was /meant/ to work 00:53:37 As I remember it Windows XP could still run Windows 2.0 programs. 00:53:55 in windows 2 you could play sound through the system speaker 00:53:59 in windows 98 that just doesn't work 00:54:05 the API exists but does nothing 00:54:28 I did run _some_ win16 programs on windows 95 osr2 and they worked fine, but those were programs by MS itself 00:54:45 the same old versions of programs, not updated 00:55:46 one thing that really annoyed me was that there was no standard program for transferring data between Windows 95 and Windows XP, which is something I really needed 00:55:49 (I had an appropriate cable) 00:55:52 in the end I ended up writing one 00:56:01 that just shoved the data down the serial port 00:56:04 ais523: um, you mean like copying files? 00:56:10 between two different computers? 00:56:25 right, but more like cat as it didn't send the filenames 00:56:29 because on the same computer you could just mount the same fat32 disk 00:56:50 basically the equivalent of piping a file into netcat on one computer and out of netcat on another 00:57:02 (which is a method I've actually used to send people files before now) 00:57:13 yeah 00:57:54 well, between two DOS computers, I used norton commander for dos to send files through serial port cable or parallel port cable. was easy to set up. 00:58:00 also used flopppies of course. 00:58:30 and you could use an old small hard disk if you had the time to open the cases and power down the computer and all that. 00:58:35 more recent DOS had a built-in command for that, I think 00:58:38 but cable worked well. 00:58:38 I forget what it was named though 00:59:03 I remember it ran at 115200 baud, though, which was surprising for me as I didn't realise speeds above 9600 existed 00:59:57 ais523: `mode com ...` to set up serial port, then `copy con1 filename` on destination and `copy filename con1` on source? 01:00:05 plus there were some other programs that didn't come with dos 01:00:09 besides norton commander 01:00:14 but norton commander worked fine for me 01:00:42 IIRC it had a "GUI" 01:00:46 and I you can still use it on windows 95 osr2, and likely windows 98 too. I don't know about windows xp, but it should probably work. 01:00:47 (although using VGA text mode) 01:00:59 ais523: norton commander's link has a pretty good gui 01:01:57 I also used floppies. they work well when the two computers are too far for a cable and you don't want to move them. just cycle three floppies around, split the file with zip or other programs. 01:02:11 I'm pretty sure this isn't a separate downloaded/purchased program I was using (unless it was a DOS program that came with Windows?) 01:02:20 I dunno 01:02:27 I guess it could have been installed by the manufacturer, but in the days of Windows 95 people probably weren't preinstalling DOS programs 01:02:33 there could be other programs I just don't know about 01:02:54 I did install custom programs to my machine 01:03:14 I still have an image with many of those useful programs (some are lost) 01:03:48 (and a decent one-floppy compressed rescue disk, and that annoying bot that connects a DOS machine to an irc channel) 01:04:22 aha, some searching found it: "interlink" (or "interlnk" because filenames were 8.3 back then) 01:04:49 possible 01:05:02 nah, I remembered it as soon as I saw the name 01:05:15 part of ms-dos 6, apparently 01:05:29 I probably just don't remember it much because norton commander worked well, I used it for transfer on cable many times 01:05:58 so it's that or floppies 01:08:41 for me 01:09:27 but these days I barely even run DOS. I'm keeping it around because there are some old games that are worth to revisit and the DOS port is good. 01:09:51 some are native DOS only, specifically the Commander Keen series 01:10:20 I don't play them these days, but will probably eventually get to it "when I have time" 01:10:40 I think most people use DOSbox for that nowadays 01:11:02 yeah. I use bochs, or at least used it the last time. dosbox is better for some newer dos games. 01:11:24 mostly due to differences in video card and sound card capabilities. 01:11:41 might have changed in later versions of bochs and qemu and dosbox of course. 01:11:46 anyway, each of them have uses. 01:12:49 back when I used it, bochs had ... interesting bugs. so I disabled the coprocessor, which would in theory slow things down if I weren't on a machine that was from the future compared to what those DOS programs were made for. 01:14:30 and doesn't matter for the games anyway 01:16:29 I also use DOSBOX to run LHA, since sometimes I want to copy a file from this computer to another computer with DOS that cannot load ZIP files created from this computer. 01:16:34 by coprocessor I mean the 80387 interface of course 01:17:23 now I'm wondering when separate 387s died out 01:17:26 cannot load zip files? can't you just install some software on it to load those zip files? 01:17:42 they're all emulated in hardware nowadays 01:17:47 ais523: between 486 and 586. some 486s have the coprocessor built in, and all 586s do. 01:17:55 wob_jonas: I assume djgpp has a working unzip program 01:18:02 the codenames were 486 DX versus 486 SX. 01:18:20 well, nowadays of course, the 387 isn't even a separate part of the chip (apart from its registers), it's all done in microcode 01:18:23 but I don't know which one is which . 01:18:27 There is the program to load ZIP files, but it is an old version and is not compatible with the ZIP files created by 7-Zip. 01:19:09 -!- tromp has joined. 01:19:29 7-zip maintains a DOS version of 7-zip. it's not as complete as the windows version, but it should work. 01:19:58 but there are lots of other dos programs that can read zip files. 01:20:32 actually, I think DJGPP has its own zip program that's distributed as a .exe file to avoid the chicken-and-egg issue (it distributes most of its files as .zip files) 01:24:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:32:47 I'm leaving now, sorry. G'nite. 01:32:51 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 01:33:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:34:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:42:21 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 01:47:51 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:48:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:57:05 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 02:36:51 -!- u0_a101 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:38:10 Is this file format for Free Hero Mesh levels does it looks like good to you? http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/wiki?name=Level+file+format 03:00:00 -!- Taneb has quit (Quit: I seem to have stopped.). 03:02:26 -!- Taneb has joined. 03:06:45 -!- tromp has joined. 03:11:20 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:11:35 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:24:34 -!- u0_a101 has joined. 04:01:12 -!- tromp has joined. 04:05:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:15:33 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57314&oldid=57306 * Galaxtone * (-14) /* C */ Removed "ASCII" 04:17:44 -!- r3m10 has joined. 04:19:04 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57315&oldid=57314 * Galaxtone * (-18) /* S */ Removed "ASCII" 04:19:29 -!- r3m10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:23:40 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57316&oldid=57315 * Galaxtone * (+97) /* S */ Fixed TYPO, removed undefined behaviour of string put, changed default value of string get for differentiation between NULL and end of string. 04:52:34 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57317&oldid=57316 * Galaxtone * (+6) /* S */ Added "UTF-8" 04:54:59 -!- tromp has joined. 04:59:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:01:10 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57318&oldid=57317 * Galaxtone * (+28) /* C */ Added "UTF-8" 05:02:08 [[Surtic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57319&oldid=57318 * Galaxtone * (-92) /* Instruction Syntax */ Removed force of UTF-8 to ascii, sorry for all the edits :P 05:08:29 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57320&oldid=57319 * Galaxtone * (+67) /* S */ 05:09:16 -!- oerjan has joined. 05:40:57 * oerjan wonders if Yurume_______ and zemhill____ are using the same client :P 05:48:47 -!- tromp has joined. 05:52:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:32:15 -!- atslash has joined. 06:32:18 Natural numbers are found a lot in mathematics, for example in category theory, the finite discrete categories are natural numbers, and addition, multiplication, exponentiation of those categories is like the addition, multiplication, exponentiation of those numbers. Isn't it? 06:38:08 if you mean there are product, sum, and exponential types in common programming languages, then the analogy to numbers can be extended as far as you like 06:38:20 you can have negative and fractional types for instance 06:38:33 so you're dealing with rational numbers instead of natural numbers 06:39:10 you just need to find computational interpretations that obey the algebraic laws 06:39:54 https://www.cs.indiana.edu/~sabry/papers/rational.pdf 06:41:33 I meant the product, sum, exponential of categories, although what you mention is something too. I do not expect categories to have fractions, although you could perhaps have a program language with negative and fractional types. Can you have the types corresponding to irrational and complex numbers though? 06:42:05 I suppose that with exponents and fractions the result can be irrational. 06:42:55 I will read it 06:43:24 xkapastel: i think i read that pdf once, and it doesn't actually work if you think about it. 06:43:48 well it executes, but there is a problem in the denotational semantics 06:44:03 and there are some problems with e.g. binding a fractional value to itself 06:44:25 you can also "divide by zero" at the type level 06:44:42 I did think you could have factorials if you have a bijective function type, some time before, I don't know quite though exactly 06:44:46 yeah you get contradictions if you try to take it literally. 06:44:50 one of the authors of the paper discussed this stuff on reddit 06:44:59 i don't recall exactly which ones i thought of. 06:45:02 I think I read that document too, but do not remember and do not know how to work it either 06:45:10 but it's still interesting, and can probably be fixewd 06:45:26 you can also keep going with the analogy and do things like radical types, imaginary types, although i'm not sure how 06:53:23 [[User:SlackerSnail]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57321 * SlackerSnail * (+29) Created page with "[https://ajc2.xyz My website]" 06:53:31 Yes, it is still interesting 07:02:21 I had a article in esolang wiki titled "Gentzen"; how can the variant with linear logic be done, though? 07:05:56 That PDF document does say that these negative and fraction types are used with reversible program language, which seem a less problem to me than something that isn't reversible 07:12:16 -!- tromp has joined. 07:36:57 -!- u0_a101 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:39:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:53:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 07:53:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 07:53:44 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:20:19 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 08:35:44 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:59:04 -!- Numline15 has joined. 08:59:58 -!- Numline15 has quit (K-Lined). 09:12:19 -!- jem1 has joined. 09:12:35 -!- jem1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:16:11 -!- moei has joined. 09:17:42 -!- rogue2 has joined. 09:17:53 -!- salios has joined. 09:17:56 -!- rogue2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:18:01 -!- salios has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:20:57 -!- ws2k323 has joined. 09:22:43 -!- ws2k323 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:23:40 -!- drathir9 has joined. 09:25:16 -!- drathir9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:02:27 -!- Thorne25 has joined. 10:04:11 -!- Thorne25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:07:46 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:14:51 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:15:29 -!- AlexZ1 has joined. 10:17:26 -!- AlexZ1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:22:27 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 10:22:52 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:56:02 [[Talk:Entfedern]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57322&oldid=51827 * Zseri * (+339) cat variation 10:56:34 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:59:19 -!- Fogity has joined. 11:14:21 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:29:08 [[Unfedern]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57323 * Zseri * (+1262) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Unfedern |paradigms=procedural, declarative, object-oriented |author=[[User:zseri]] |year=[[:Category:2018|2018]] |typesys=static |memsys=variable-bas..." 11:51:28 -!- zseri has joined. 11:59:25 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:02:53 -!- arooni12 has joined. 12:03:54 -!- tromp has joined. 12:04:34 -!- arooni12 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:28:08 -!- Rune_K has joined. 12:30:02 -!- Rune_K has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:42:50 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:43:31 -!- iDanoo14 has joined. 13:44:23 -!- iDanoo14 has quit (K-Lined). 13:55:33 -!- davidfg423 has joined. 13:57:19 -!- davidfg423 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:03:01 -!- arseniiv has joined. 14:04:04 -!- casdr8 has joined. 14:05:18 -!- Turbo-Folker has joined. 14:05:35 -!- casdr8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:07:03 -!- Turbo-Folker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:13:05 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sinthorion * New user account 14:20:30 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:21:05 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:22:01 -!- Fogity has joined. 14:22:05 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:57:24 -!- __idiot__ has joined. 14:57:54 -!- __idiot__ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:58:48 -!- ephemer0l_3 has joined. 15:03:40 -!- ephemer0l_3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:12:14 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 15:22:13 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:28:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:10:26 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57324&oldid=57288 * Sinthorion * (+128) Introduction 16:17:20 -!- Phex has joined. 16:18:47 -!- r3m4 has joined. 16:19:09 -!- r3m4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:20:21 -!- Phex has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:32:48 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57325&oldid=57186 * Sinthorion * (+443) more input algorithms 16:33:17 [[Brainfuck algorithms]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57326&oldid=57325 * Sinthorion * (-7) 17:16:15 anyone here interested in a new brainfuck based game? 17:16:18 https://bfbignum.github.io/ 17:16:37 "single player" unlike bf joust 17:17:19 that sounds interesting. It's been so long since I wrote bf though 17:17:36 don't worry, you're not writing bf in this one 17:19:33 huh, is the synthesizer supposed to be written in bf? 17:19:46 int-e: no, it's written in whatever you want 17:19:55 then you'll be dividing by 0 a lot. 17:19:56 it must execute BF at some point though, don't you think? 17:20:04 why? 17:20:27 i would love to see how you solve this with a denominator of 0 17:20:48 i'm not even sure what that would imply. are you secretly an agi? 17:21:14 because the likeliest candidate for the best program is just 57+ signs followed by . (if the output is in ASCII decimal) 17:21:14 Interesting that it's based on a BF variant instead of actual BF. I was expecting the number to be a string representation 17:21:45 int-e: i'm not sure i follow, you're saying the largest number you can output is 57? 17:21:59 xkapastel: 57 is the ASCII code for '9'. 17:22:10 int-e: see rule 4 17:22:31 that's not even a large number by the way 17:22:45 xkapastel: even easier than; it's all plusses followed by a single . 17:22:53 so i doubt it would even do well, although you're the second person to try that 17:23:11 int-e: okay imagine this, the time limit is 4096 steps 17:23:18 you're saying the largest number you can output is like 4095? 17:23:24 yes 17:23:39 are you sure you don't wanna think about it 17:23:42 in order for a cell to reach n, it has to be incremented n times 17:23:51 brainfuck is too limited. 17:23:53 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 17:24:23 hm, maybe i've put the rules the wrong way round, and it shouldn't be limited by time, but it's an adaptation of another game 17:24:35 i'm not sure that's true though, you should be able to do better 17:25:08 xkapastel: you're welcome to find a flaw in my reasoning 17:25:16 I agree. The only way to increase the value of a cell is by incrementing it. Addition and multiplication are all derived from inc 17:25:47 xkapastel: you can make this more interesting with a size limit 17:25:54 Program size might be a better indicator 17:26:12 yeah, maybe the real limit is size and not time 17:26:23 Or just switch to actual BF and look for the decimal representation of the largest number 17:26:29 (you'll *also* want to have a time limit; otherwise you'll be in busy beaver territroy where you'll have trouble scoring things at all) 17:26:37 bradcomp: that one is not too interesting i think 17:27:07 (btw I should have used '1' instead of '9' earlier, printing 8 more digtits is worth far more than that meager factor of 9) 17:27:26 meagre. 17:27:33 to me it looked like it was looking for bf BBs 17:27:42 which does sound kind of boring and impossibly difficult 17:27:53 maybe you have a target number to reach, in the shortest bf program? 17:28:07 BBs? 17:28:11 busy beaver 17:28:24 ah 17:29:25 But regardless, the notion of "total number of BF operations executed in the search for the target program." is impossible to pinpoint and shouldn't be part of the rules. 17:29:44 why is it impossible? 17:30:07 i would think you need to execute bf at some point to evaluate candidate programs 17:31:20 xkapastel: I might be generating code like [->++<], but the search program would just do x[i+1] = 2*x[i]; x[i] = 0. And possibly never have an explicit tape at all. 17:31:21 my program would just poll the wiki entry for braiinfuck numbers 17:32:09 xkapastel: at which point I would argue that no brainfuck instructions are executed because what the search does isn't expressed in terms of increments, decrements and moving left or right. 17:32:14 int-e: yeah, changing representations like that is hard to pin down besides saying "don't do that", but i'm not sure how else to measure work 17:32:27 it's important to know how much effort was put in to finding a program 17:32:50 the program itself is not interesting 17:32:55 what's interesting is the method you used to create it 17:33:14 xkapastel: So measure actual work. CPU time. Fix a bytecode based programming language like Python and look for a way to count the number of bytecode instructions executed... 17:33:45 It should be objective and not depend on how a judge happens to read a particular program. 17:33:48 i suppose it could be based on webassembly 17:34:28 What about number of 'candidate programs' generated. I can imagine there might be synthesizers that don't generate candidate programs though 17:35:13 bradcomp: Yeah I don't see a need for candidate programs as such, at least not written in Brainfuck. 17:35:55 int-e: really? why not? 17:36:10 I wasn't restricting it to BF. You'll need some sort of Intermediate representation at least though 17:36:50 -!- sleepnap has joined. 17:38:05 xkapastel: because I think that working with a higher level language that can be translated to brainfuck but can also be executed efficiently will be much more effective than trying to generate Brainfuck directly, unless you have very stringent size constraints on the code. 17:38:49 i guess that just needs to be banned 17:38:57 good luck with that 17:39:31 yeah, the best way to do it is to count synthesizer steps i guess 17:39:42 of course translating to avoid the work count is cheating 17:40:50 oh, one way it could work 17:40:58 the only feedback is provided by some kind of api harness 17:41:08 but this still requires standardizing some sort of environment for synthesis 17:41:17 so i guess webassembly or something like it is needed 17:46:24 maybe: the programming language is undefined (but happens to be the same one very time), so you can't just write an "equivalent" evaluator 17:46:56 in the end i don't mind using the honor system, it's just a game 17:47:00 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57327&oldid=57320 * Galaxtone * (+0) /* Infinite Cat */ 17:47:49 there's also the approach they used in that Sonic-based deep learning game recently 17:48:00 https://blog.openai.com/retro-contest/ 17:48:06 there were many different sonic games involved 17:48:28 the semantics of instructions could be changed slightly somehow so you can't know them ahead of time 17:48:58 also https://blog.openai.com/learning-dexterity/ 17:49:01 "domain randomization" 17:50:12 e.g. increment and decrement could have different values, move left/right could have different values 17:51:09 -!- MDead has joined. 17:52:27 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 17:52:33 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 18:09:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:09:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 18:09:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:16:24 -!- imode has joined. 18:26:22 that thing about just doing `+` over and over and then `.` is not true in general, there's a kind of constant factor slowdown involved in being limited to brainfuck which is going to be overwhelmed at some point by the algorithm you used to make big numbers 18:26:36 limited to increment/decrement* 18:26:59 an additive constant 18:29:14 it couldn't be true otherwise bf wouldn't be turing complete 18:29:49 if the size of the number you can express with a program is linear in the length of the program how could you be turing complete? 18:30:43 -!- steveeJ11 has joined. 18:30:51 -!- steveeJ11 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:35:05 bf is turing complete because it has nested loops. So the source code necessary to express a bignum can be much smaller than the number, but it will end up with more operations than a straight incrementation program 18:37:02 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 18:38:06 -!- Sousapro29 has joined. 18:38:21 okay, i guess i was wrong it's actually always a constant number of operations more than the number you can express 18:40:35 -!- Sousapro29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:42:56 hm it's not constant, i was way off :< 18:43:02 bf is turing complete because it has nested loops. 18:43:04 hmmmmmmmmmmmmm 18:43:30 that could easily not be true 18:43:31 loop programs = primitive recursive functions 18:44:20 clearly you don't need unbounded nesting because a program that implements a UTM has only bounded loop nesting 18:44:37 yeah, one loop is enough 18:44:50 but it has to be unbounded 18:44:53 that was going to be my next line of attack 18:45:05 I'm not suggesting that _all_ TC languages need nested loops. I am just saying that's what does it for BF 18:45:05 why's that 18:45:40 in fact that's provably not the case 18:45:50 what is the other BF feature that would give it completeness? 18:46:21 proof: cap loop length at the max. used by some brainfuck self-interpreter that runs a program encoded on the tape 18:46:27 Well, it's true that you need nesting (2 levels should suffice) to make BF Turing-complete. 18:46:58 you can write any finite data without using a loop so you can translate any brainfuck program into this 18:47:42 int-e, ok, where's the proof though 18:48:17 my gut feeling is that brainfuck without any loop nesting at all is TC 18:49:04 what does a BF program like that look like? 18:49:08 Phantom_Hoover: without nesting, the loop body adds a fixed vector at the current pointer position and shifts the pointer by a fixed amount. so you can solve the halting problem (I'm assuming the tape has only finitely many non-zero cells at each point in time) 18:49:24 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_minus_-#Depth_two_nesting 18:49:26 yeah that's a plausible line of argument 18:50:19 While not a proof that it can't be done without nesting, I think that article counts as some evidence 18:51:05 i.e. it's been proven to be TC with limited nesting, but not without nesting 18:51:42 absence of proof is not proof of absence 18:52:18 I know that, and explicitly said it isn't a proof 18:52:41 yeah ok depth 1 has solvable halting 18:52:51 (disregarding input) 18:53:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:53:44 gah fuck now i'm not sure again 19:05:53 -!- gurmble has joined. 19:06:35 -!- grumble has changed nick to Guest76306. 19:06:35 -!- Guest76306 has quit (Killed (weber.freenode.net (Nickname regained by services))). 19:06:35 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 19:09:55 -!- tromp has joined. 19:18:06 -!- lynn_ has joined. 19:18:44 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: It would appear there's a kernel update). 19:20:54 -!- subleq_ has joined. 19:21:21 -!- grumble has joined. 19:24:24 -!- me` has joined. 19:24:24 -!- me` has quit (Excess Flood). 19:25:18 -!- subleq has quit (*.net *.split). 19:25:25 -!- lynn has quit (*.net *.split). 19:25:26 -!- xa0 has quit (*.net *.split). 19:25:29 -!- me` has joined. 19:25:29 -!- me` has quit (Excess Flood). 19:26:16 -!- xa0 has joined. 19:26:16 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 19:27:17 -!- xa0 has joined. 19:27:17 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 19:27:48 -!- zzo38 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 19:28:35 -!- xa0 has joined. 19:28:35 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 19:29:28 -!- xa0 has joined. 19:29:28 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 19:30:19 -!- xa0 has joined. 19:30:19 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 19:31:13 -!- xa0 has joined. 19:31:13 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 19:33:19 -!- xa0 has joined. 20:05:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:14:03 [[Turi]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57328&oldid=53311 * Osmarks * (-49) 20:14:05 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:24:29 -!- aloril has joined. 20:38:04 -!- XorSwap has joined. 20:38:52 -!- XorSwap has quit (Client Quit). 20:55:35 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:55:45 -!- j-bot has joined. 20:57:30 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:21:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:31:33 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:35:44 -!- tromp has joined. 21:46:45 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:49:50 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:15:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:18:50 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:23:57 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:29:04 -!- aloril has joined. 22:30:51 -!- tromp has joined. 22:35:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:04:31 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 23:09:19 -!- tromp has joined. 23:13:59 -!- modin2 has joined. 23:14:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:14:15 -!- modin2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:23:43 Sgeo_: olist tomorrow, right? 23:25:32 There either will be an olist tomorrow or not, so 50-50 chance. 23:27:31 I just googled for that hoping to find the Daily Show clip, instead I find people who are actually confused. 23:29:09 https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/3wsj3a/my_chances_are_always_50_for_everything_am_i_wrong/ ISN'T actually that confused, apparently this person just thinks "50-50" is an appropriate name for "may or may not happen" 23:29:38 (I only skimmed the comments) 23:41:21 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:44:28 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:54:27 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 2018-08-14: 00:03:23 -!- tromp has joined. 00:08:01 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:10:47 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 00:11:47 -!- heroux_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:14:12 -!- VM_ has joined. 00:14:30 -!- VM_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:18:06 -!- heroux has joined. 00:18:22 -!- heroux_ has joined. 00:27:13 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 00:53:03 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:57:10 -!- Taneb has quit (*.net *.split). 00:57:14 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 00:59:43 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:59:57 -!- j-bot has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:59:59 -!- Fogity has joined. 01:04:25 -!- Taneb has joined. 01:04:25 -!- ineiros has joined. 01:06:08 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:09:32 -!- aloril has joined. 01:50:50 -!- tromp has joined. 01:55:21 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:13:24 @tell Phantom_Hoover gah fuck now i'm not sure again <-- looks solid to me. if a loop gets too far into the zeroed area the value at loop exit test becomes constant. 02:13:24 Consider it noted. 02:37:26 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 02:37:51 -!- sftp has joined. 03:10:49 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:22:18 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:28:40 -!- hsiktas6 has joined. 03:31:04 -!- hsiktas6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:38:49 -!- tromp has joined. 03:42:24 -!- spiegelau has joined. 03:43:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:24:06 -!- S_Gautam has quit. 04:28:00 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:30:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:34:44 [[Reversible Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57329&oldid=57313 * Oerjan * (+3596) Clarifications; Unbounded cells, bounded tape TC 04:35:06 *Whee* 04:35:25 (i may have taken ais523's job, somewhat) 04:36:08 also eat -> 04:37:36 -!- badon23 has joined. 04:43:13 -!- badon23 has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 04:48:03 Sgeo: without reading I'd assume it's this: https://xkcd.com/1132/ 05:19:35 -!- atslash has joined. 05:26:57 -!- tromp has joined. 05:31:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:21:09 -!- tromp has joined. 06:27:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:39:04 -!- tromp has joined. 06:45:35 -!- Yurume_______ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:54:18 -!- Yurume_______ has joined. 07:38:22 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:07:08 -!- Guest55147 has quit 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joined. 00:48:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:00:39 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:01:07 @messages? 01:01:07 Sorry, no messages today. 01:06:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 01:14:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:14:38 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 01:14:38 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:15:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Client Quit). 01:38:14 -!- tromp has joined. 01:40:10 -!- LKoen has joined. 01:43:04 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:44:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:50:41 -!- mort24 has joined. 01:51:23 -!- mort24 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 01:51:46 -!- gitfaf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:02:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:11:51 hm silent day 02:18:24 [[Talk:Stun Step]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57331&oldid=57066 * Oerjan * (+339) /* Ideas for TC proof */ RBF done 02:19:44 [[Talk:Stun Step]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57332&oldid=57331 * Oerjan * (+51) /* Ideas for TC proof */ Make that a section link 02:26:14 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 02:31:50 -!- tromp has joined. 02:36:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds). 02:42:08 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 03:07:37 -!- Turbo-Folker has joined. 03:08:18 -!- Turbo-Folker has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 03:12:24 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:40:45 -!- LKoen has joined. 03:45:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:46:18 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:54:46 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 04:19:19 -!- tromp has joined. 04:23:56 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:38:43 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:40:17 -!- aloril has joined. 05:13:44 -!- tromp has joined. 05:18:23 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:33:35 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:35:14 -!- aloril has joined. 05:41:32 -!- LKoen has joined. 05:46:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:56:10 -!- MartesZibellina has joined. 06:01:06 -!- MartesZibellina has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:07:27 -!- tromp has joined. 06:11:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:15:42 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:19:17 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 06:39:14 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 06:42:12 -!- tromp has joined. 06:52:50 -!- Guest26437 has joined. 07:00:28 -!- Guest26437 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:02:23 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:05:46 -!- lunaaa has joined. 07:08:54 -!- lunaaa has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 07:28:20 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:35:29 Sgeo: the chances of an olist yesterday are actually 0% hth 07:39:51 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:42:25 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:46:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:00:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 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The program halts if and only if the generated group is finite. 00:24:55 But there's no I/O there. 00:25:55 So how do you extend this programming language, keeping within its spirit, in order to give it I/O? 00:27:16 Here's an initial idea for some output. You can mark some of the generators, and when your program halts, it outputs the orders of the marked generators. 00:42:03 -!- dysfigured29 has joined. 00:46:53 -!- dysfigured29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:33:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GNOMON CHICKEN). 02:31:38 -!- Guest97794 has joined. 02:36:04 -!- Guest97794 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:08:05 -!- SlashLife10 has joined. 03:13:41 -!- SlashLife10 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 03:23:18 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 03:38:30 -!- earlz17 has joined. 03:38:54 Netscape 4 on Windows 3.1, when it sends applets keyUp, seems to fill the upper bytes of the key code with garbage 03:39:48 -!- earlz17 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:16:05 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 04:16:30 -!- XorSwap has joined. 05:11:07 [[Surtic]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57338&oldid=57335 * Galaxtone * (-1) /* 99 bottles of beer */ Found one small error (fixed) using the interpreter 05:14:53 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:31:55 -!- Reincarnate28 has joined. 05:35:16 -!- Reincarnate28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:50:04 -!- variable has joined. 06:05:38 -!- lutki_ has joined. 06:08:12 -!- tromp has joined. 06:10:24 -!- lutki_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:12:53 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:20:20 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 06:22:22 -!- trout has joined. 06:25:00 -!- Miatreya has joined. 06:25:07 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 06:31:39 -!- Miatreya has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:35:03 -!- tromp has joined. 06:45:06 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:57:08 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:35:47 -!- dp322 has joined. 07:36:08 -!- LKoen has joined. 07:38:16 -!- dp322 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:50:09 -!- moei has joined. 07:57:08 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:03:00 -!- impomatic has left. 08:05:13 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:07:05 -!- grumble has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:10:09 -!- grumble has joined. 08:11:29 -!- copumpkin[m] has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:11:42 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: This XML file does not appear to have any style information associated with it. The document tree is shown below.). 08:15:56 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:18:43 -!- copumpkin[m] has joined. 08:22:16 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:25:17 -!- Natechip has joined. 08:29:39 -!- Natechip has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:31:32 -!- gurmble has joined. 08:32:06 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 08:50:01 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:50:37 tswett: re undecidable program to programming language, see https://esolangs.org/wiki/But_Is_It_Art%3F which is a perfect example for that sort of thing IMO 08:52:28 tom7's new what? darn, I can't recover lambdabot's message and didn't read it before I closed the window. shachaf, oerjan: who said that and what was it? 08:53:23 I don't even know who sent the message 08:53:29 and I didn't see tom7's new anything 08:54:12 it's not mentioned on his radar or his youtube 08:56:32 shachaf: Do you mean ZM~~ # Printy# C with ABC!? because I have seen it in 2017 and talked with you about it and even wrote messages to tom7 a short writeup on the esowiki. so you must be meaning something newer 08:58:49 and I have seen "Reverse emulating the NES" too of course, and it's great. I'm not really satisfied with the name "reverse emulating", but tom7 always gives such whimsical names, like the unibycle 08:59:52 wob_jonas: He made a 48-hour game thing 09:00:10 oh, he did? linky? 09:00:20 no blog post yet, but he must be tired after the 48 hours 09:00:38 http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/ 09:01:09 I've played his wire connector games, and wikiplia (which doesn't really count), and the nested falling squares, but not any of the others IIRC 09:01:19 oh, and a bit of the original Escape 09:01:34 but only the wire connector and the falling squares are 48 hour or 24 hour ones 09:01:38 I don't recall which 09:01:41 could be 72 horus 09:02:10 do you happen to know what the prompt of the ludum dare was? tom7 always forgets to say 09:02:48 star trek? 09:03:36 Apparently the theme was "running out of space" 09:03:58 I see 09:04:05 Which is also the name of the game, and gur znva zrpunavp bs gur tnzr? 09:04:52 so he made an inventory management game with too few inventory space? after the wire connecting game had a softlock bug where you ran out of space to place the item you picked up? nice 09:04:55 I must try this later 09:05:31 Knowing that that's the name of the game puts it in a slightly different light. 09:06:07 oh, the four words at the bottom are clickable too! 09:06:50 that doesn't look like the standard galactic alphabet, but there's a chance it's a simple substitution cipher, knowing tom7 09:06:55 s/name of the game/theme of the competition/, I mean. I already knew the other thing. 09:07:03 It's a simple substitution cipher. 09:07:09 doesn't everyone in the galaxy use standard galactic alphabet though? 09:07:14 why is this particular alien different 09:07:42 What's standard galactic alphabet? 09:08:10 it's a simple substitution cipher for the 26 ascii letters plus one or two extra from the Commander Keen series 09:08:35 http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/Standard_Galactic_Alphabet tells more than I could 09:09:03 the Commander Keen games have labels of it everywhere, including "EXIT" signs at the ends of the level 09:09:11 sadly one or two typos too 09:09:28 also gives the full alphabet in some hidden place in case you can't figure out 09:11:15 and the Keen 5 ending sequence shows a letter from the big bad of game 3 and Keen's arch-enemy that reveals that Keen did not kill him at the end-boss of game 3 as you thought, only his "android dummy", so he's still alive and plotting 09:11:18 http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/spacefont.png 09:12:04 no, don't spoil it! 09:12:14 there's enoguh clues 09:12:31 I already figured out what three of the four bottom labels should mean 09:12:46 tom7's nice consistent style of giving easy clues in such a game helps a lot 09:12:52 railroading but very enjoyable 09:13:09 ok, maybe only 2 of the 4 labels 09:13:15 leftmost and rightmost are obvious 09:13:25 but the third one doesn't look like it can be "inventory" 09:13:49 but I have my trusty frequency dictionary grepping with backreferences for these cases 09:14:02 often works 09:14:57 the English frequency dict compiled by http://wordlist.aspell.net/12dicts/ of course 09:15:47 I recommend it for all English word problems 09:21:05 hopefully if I restart, the hover text of the fire extinguisher helps 09:21:22 I'll have to get back to this later, but I'm busy and really have to work and rest instead 09:21:25 thanks for pointing it out 09:21:48 -!- rkta has joined. 09:25:36 -!- rkta has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:25:42 It's not linked from the Ludum Dare section from http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/ yet, so I don't know how you figured out it even exists. You must be subscribed to some secret news source I don't know of. 09:25:55 shachaf: do we need a tom7list? we have like four people who care about his projects 09:45:31 -!- ChickenSoup_ has joined. 09:47:07 -!- Guest3664 has joined. 09:47:09 -!- Guest3664 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:48:02 -!- letty8 has joined. 09:49:21 -!- letty8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:53:22 -!- ChickenSoup_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 10:00:56 -!- ozy1 has joined. 10:04:42 -!- ozy1 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 10:04:44 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mhmdyasr * New user account 10:20:34 [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57339&oldid=56735 * A * (+154) List all 3 possibilities for creating an infinite loop. 10:24:35 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57340&oldid=57324 * Mhmdyasr * (+144) /* Introductions */ 10:27:44 oerjan: shachaf pointes out http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/ , a new Tom 7 Ludum Dare game 10:28:02 who else is there I should notify? 10:29:03 Cale: ^ 10:29:36 int-e: ^ 10:29:37 Who is tom7? 10:30:30 Taneb: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom7/ , guy with some amazing projects, some related to computers or mathematics (he has a PhD in maths), some to marathon running 10:32:28 has ran a marathon with a birthday cake once, and once completed a marathon in a full hockey player costume with skates http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/comment/1/1100 10:32:39 -!- pathfinder19 has joined. 10:32:48 also writes articles for sigbovik, a joke conference 10:33:40 [[Infinite loop]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57341&oldid=57339 * A * (+82) 10:33:41 ok, that one wasn't a marathon, only 10 kilometers 10:33:57 -!- pathfinder19 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:34:36 and ran in a shark costume once and in an escaped convict costume once. that's the four running in costumes project that he did. 10:34:48 ah no, there's a fifth. hazmat. 10:35:19 you can find all five from the hockey link 10:35:28 [[User:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57342&oldid=57272 * A * (-1096) Blanked the page 10:35:57 also keeps up posting "every month" to her blog since 2000, which is quite an accomplishment 10:36:25 had to backdate some entries by as much as two days lately to make it work, but sticks to the at least one post for every month 10:38:27 I think most of the running projects were 10 kilometers 10:41:23 no wait, there should be a sixth 10:41:36 there was a cake costume (not running with a cake, but running as a cake) too somewhere 10:43:20 http://radar.spacebar.org/?month=10&year=2015 is the cake costume 10:44:00 no wait, there's a seventh 10:44:03 the one with the four dolls 10:44:38 Sounds like an interesting fellow 10:45:12 so at least seven costume running. wow, I didn't realize there were so many 10:46:09 jesus no 10:46:22 there's a balloon one and a slippers + bathroom cloak one too 10:46:33 bathrobe 10:46:41 http://radar.spacebar.org/f/a/weblog/category/1/races 10:49:26 ^ that should show all the costume running, if he categorizes well 11:03:23 hmm cute little game 11:07:55 int-e: who else do we ping on the tom7list? I think I forgot someone 11:09:25 how many typos are there? it's kind of embarrassing that there's one in one of the commands :) 11:10:14 int-e: I dunno, ask shachaf 11:11:21 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:14:31 // XXX remove "cheat" keys 11:14:50 -!- Cronus9 has joined. 11:16:22 int-e: he has those in other games too. so what. they're useful for debugging. if you play you can abstain from using them if you want. 11:17:24 I guess it's the only typo. There really isn't all that much text :) 11:17:59 -!- Cronus9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:20:26 int-e: isn't there hover text for all items? 11:21:13 int-e: if there really is a typo, email tom7 because maybe he hasn't noticed it yet 11:23:24 -!- mub has joined. 11:25:13 -!- mub has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:44:08 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:54:06 -!- erkin has joined. 11:56:59 -!- iconmaster has joined. 11:57:05 -!- iconmaster has quit (Client Quit). 12:06:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:21:28 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:39:30 -!- GeekDude12 has joined. 12:42:41 -!- GeekDude12 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:07:43 -!- AimHere6 has joined. 13:08:51 -!- AimHere6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:39:59 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asu` * New user account 13:49:32 -!- arseniiv has joined. 14:03:00 -!- aphel has joined. 14:05:34 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:07:22 -!- aphel has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:16:43 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:40:25 -!- tromp has joined. 14:56:30 -!- rain1 has joined. 14:56:35 -!- rain2 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:59:58 -!- Chex4 has joined. 15:03:44 -!- Chex4 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:06:41 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:10:58 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:15:57 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:19:47 -!- aloril has joined. 15:48:00 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:49:39 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:50:40 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 16:21:47 -!- imode has joined. 16:31:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:31:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:37:52 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:40:54 -!- linuxmodder22 has joined. 16:40:54 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:41:32 -!- linuxmodder22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:51:22 -!- zseri has joined. 17:19:53 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:29:00 -!- sparklefarkle has joined. 17:29:37 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 17:29:41 -!- sparklefarkle has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 17:30:12 `ping 17:30:13 pong 17:30:25 `? angband 17:30:26 Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel. 17:30:55 `grep -Rlsi morgoth wisdom 17:30:56 grep: invalid option -- ' ' \ Usage: grep [OPTION]... PATTERN [FILE]... \ Try 'grep --help' for more information. 17:31:09 `` grep -ERlsi morgoth wisdom 17:31:11 wisdom/angband 17:31:59 `? utumno 17:32:00 utumno? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:32:14 `? udun 17:32:15 udun? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:32:20 `? Udûn 17:32:21 Udûn? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:32:29 hmm 17:32:42 the entry for angband should mention the first dungeon 18:05:31 `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth in the first dungeon Utumno, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel. 18:05:33 Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon. When the valar finally defeated Morgoth in the first dungeon Utumno, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel. 18:05:41 no, that's not right 18:06:03 `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel. 18:06:05 Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the valar finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel. 18:06:43 Although I think it's deliberately confusing or something 18:06:47 it doesn't seem to be right 18:10:08 it wasn't the humans alone. Beren the human and Galadriel the elf took part in that fight with the valar, and they defeated Morgoth there but didn't utterly destroyed him, so his final defeat was the miracle in Numenor. 18:10:30 you don't put all that in a wisdom, but it shouldn't say just the valar 18:10:57 `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel. 18:10:58 -!- graingert19 has joined. 18:10:59 Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together finally defeated Morgoth, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel. 18:11:31 `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and was the final boss in Numenor. 18:11:34 Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and was the final boss in Numenor. 18:11:39 -!- graingert19 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 18:12:00 not really the final boss, more like the big bad 18:12:14 `learn Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor. 18:12:16 Relearned 'angband': Angband is Morgoth's second dungeon (the first was Utumno). When the greater and lesser people of Middle-Earth together defeated Morgoth in Angband, they were too lazy to go to for 100% completion, so some evil spirits in Angband survived for a sequel, and Morgoth himself recovered and arrived to Numenor. 18:12:18 We don't have to tell the ending 18:12:25 just that it wasn't a final defeat 18:12:41 the other evil spirits include Sauron of course 18:12:57 does that look about right? 18:13:47 `? wisdom 18:13:48 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? 18:16:57 `? ø 18:16:58 ​ø is not going anywhere. 18:28:26 https://s22.postimg.cc/5atvbynox/Screenshot-1533.png strange, I’ve seen that face before 18:30:39 `? ørjan 18:30:40 Your pal Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers without noticing it. 18:31:03 `? oerjan 18:31:04 Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. 18:31:31 ah I’ve already read that, it seems 18:31:38 `? örjan 18:31:39 örjan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:33:54 yes, örjan is the name of the hypothetic third twin, but he probably doesn't exist 18:33:58 `? e̊rjan 18:33:59 e̊rjan? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:34:07 s/hetic/hetical/ 18:34:54 what? 18:34:58 is that even a letter? 18:36:31 `unidecode e̊ 18:36:32 ​[U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+030A COMBINING RING ABOVE] 18:36:55 that's cheating 18:37:52 there should be also ɵrjan, œrjan, ɶrjan(?) and maybe an aliens named ǫrjan and ᴔrjɐn 18:38:56 int-e: maybe there is a precombined one, I just don’t see it in ol’ Charmap with DejaVu Sans 18:38:58 I don't think anyone uses that, not even those crazy conlangers that make conlangs with like nine vowel tones that must be distinguished and diacritics used to write them. 18:39:17 <\oren\_> ӧerjan 18:39:54 <\oren\_> wait that's not a latin character 18:40:08 `? indifference 18:40:10 indifference? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:40:20 (ø̈erjan) 18:40:21 nobody cared to make that entry 18:40:22 I'm very hazy here, but I think think I've seen are two of those crazy conlangs, one with like nine and one with only eight, but the former uses tones for grammar and the latter for vocabulary and the former has only like five vowel values but the latter has as a larger inventory of crazy diphtong vowels than mandarin. 18:40:40 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: there's the volapuk version, Ꞝ 18:40:52 eight tones are too much((( 18:41:26 at least for a lazy native of a non-tonal language 18:41:31 <\oren\_> wob_jonas: conlangers used to not care so much about technical limitations 18:41:34 yes, natural languages probably don't distinguish more than six 18:41:53 \oren\: I think they *know* about the technical limitations and deliberately want to exceed them 18:41:59 at least a bit 18:42:04 or push the boundary 18:42:04 <\oren\_> Ꞝrjan 18:43:11 wait, ᴔ? is that only IPA or one of those used for writing systems constructed for africian languages? 18:44:02 probably neither. it's that crazy 18:44:05 a turned oe ligature. 18:44:50 <\oren\_> I like Ꜳ 18:44:55 <\oren\_> ꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲꜲ 18:45:07 there also are conlangs for a nonhuman speech apparati (uh I think this form is totally wrong), e. g. with many more places of articulation or “nassalities” or something multitonal… 18:46:09 probably neither => yeah AFAIK it’s in no version of IPA yet and is not planned to be there 18:46:13 arseniiv: yeah, like https://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=178 although Sam never made a real conlang for it, only gave translations 18:46:45 indeed 18:46:52 mind you, (WARNING DON'T READ IF YOU'RE SQUEAMISH) a few humans have a split tongue as deliberate body modification 18:46:58 he wasn’t concerned enough! 18:47:37 hm does a split tongue open new phonetic possibilities?.. 18:47:45 no, he deliberately left something for his fans 18:48:07 I was joking) 18:48:41 arseniiv: I've no clue. I also don't understand the phonetic possibilities for just ordinary humans, and already have problems with things like French and English 18:48:47 and those are relatively tame 18:48:48 btw I read his Ra sequence and some other things 18:49:14 but Fine Structure was too much complicated 18:49:24 to dive in 18:49:31 -!- badon19 has joined. 18:49:38 arseniiv: I enjoyed his early fiction more, but probably mostly because of nostalgia. stickmanstickman introduced me to webcomics. 18:49:49 and it was already completed when I first read it 18:50:03 interesting 18:50:33 in retrospect, after reading lots of other webcomics, it's not a very good one, but I still love it 18:50:58 (I haven’t known of it before it was mentioned here) 18:51:52 mind you, he posted a new strip every day (except one he missed for technical reasons and inserted later), and his filler material was consistently better than the filler material some other webcomic artists like Jeph used to "post a strip every day" 18:52:17 it has some charm, as of those episodes I saw 18:52:29 kept it up for exactly 1000 strips, which idea he got from Tailsteak's first webcomic. Tailsteak has since completed a second webcomic at exactly 1000 strips, but it's less enjoyable than the first one. 18:52:52 wait, there’s a second? 18:52:55 admittedly Jeph kept at the daily posting for longer, and he actually draws good art 18:53:01 arseniiv: and he started a third 18:53:33 arseniiv: find the links on http://math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn , search for Tailsteak 18:53:43 -!- badon19 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 18:53:53 the third one ain't linked yet 18:54:13 (btw does someone know an English interjection dictionary? In critical moments, I lack in descriptions) 18:56:32 wob_jonas: thanks for the link 18:59:17 how do you people think, does an illustrated serial written in a conlang not described prior, has a chance? 19:01:19 <\oren\_> arseniiv: certainly could be a cool way of creating and demonstrating a conlang 19:01:54 <\oren\_> arseniiv: actually I think there was a webcomic with a conlang in it 19:02:25 aarseniv: tailsteak's 0/1 and sam's stickmanstickman, like many other webcomics, started as disjoint and a coherent plot got invented later. tailsteak then experimented with a number of smaller webcomics, but took neither very far and didn't complete any but very short ones. 19:03:09 when he eventually started Leftover Soup, he planned it, the comic starts with a plot from strip 1 and takes it to a resolution. also still posted daily, but with a larger buffer, and the buffer was public for some reason. 19:03:31 at least the comic images of the buffer was, not the annotation and transcript 19:04:28 wob_jonas: you’re very knowledgeable :) 19:04:46 nah, more like obsessed and had more free time back then 19:05:14 I'm not knowledgable in the plot details of Fine Structure or Ra, but I remember most of StickManStickMan 19:05:49 <\oren\_> arseniiv: yeah, it was this one http://unicornjelly.com/ 19:06:12 <\oren\_> arseniiv: guy invented an alien language with its own logographic writing system 19:06:17 not enough to quickly find strips I want to reference though, so sometimes I think I should take the time to make a transcript or at least keywords per script at least for the random sequences of interlude (filler, non-plot, plot is waiting, joke a day) strips 19:07:18 oh, that reminds me 19:08:17 in one of these countries like Switzerland or Belgium or possibly Finland, where the culture actually embraces that the country uses two or three languages and people put bilingual signs in their private property not because of a law but because they genuinely enjoy it 19:08:42 (unlike, you know, Québec, where there are a lot of radicals saying that there should be only one language used there, French) 19:08:59 especially in countries where the two languages use the same script and same digits 19:09:49 does it ever happen that people write price tags with the same price in the same currency listed twice, because both of the languages has an idea of the only one right way to write an amount of currency, 19:10:14 but they differ in the value or placement of the currency sign(s), how decimal fractions are denoted, or even the thousands separator? 19:10:18 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:10:28 If not, can we somehow engineer such a situation in one of those countries? 19:12:41 The friendly bilingual situation very rarely occurs in some of these programming libraries so they have a C++ and a Python API of all important functions, both developped and released together by the main developers, rather than a Python API (or C++ API for a C library) written later, 19:13:07 but it's not exactly analog, because the library itself is implemented all in C++, you don't need a python interpreter to use the C++ API in full 19:13:32 \oren\_: oh 19:14:18 Also, is imagining such a price tag an esoteric thing in the sense this channel uses it? 19:16:06 The orthography rulebook of Hungarian by the National Academy of Sciences (MTA) is very particular that the abbreviation for forint is written as Ft without a period, which makes it a double exception from normal rules of abbreviations, but makes sense if you think of it as similar to physics units notation 19:16:14 well, not even then 19:16:46 that way it would be still not italic and without the dot, but the upper case is not explained by anything other than the historical point of distinguishing it from fillér more clearly 19:22:57 @tell boily polygod comes out of beta tomorrow. they say multiplayer actually works now. 19:22:57 Consider it noted. 19:36:06 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57343&oldid=57340 * Asu` * (+115) /* Introductions */ 19:36:32 [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57344&oldid=57309 * Asu` * (+90) /* Implementations including Hardware */ 19:38:41 -!- Fleet19 has joined. 19:39:04 [[Brainfuck implementations]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57345&oldid=57344 * Asu` * (+5) /* Optimizing implementations */ 19:39:22 -!- Fleet19 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:40:20 -!- Asu has joined. 19:45:54 -!- Asu` has joined. 19:46:41 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:48:22 -!- Asu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:03:12 @messages 20:03:12 You don't have any messages 20:23:52 -!- MDude has quit (Read error: No route to host). 20:43:21 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:10:44 bye 21:10:46 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:12:45 -!- MDude has joined. 21:20:10 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 21:22:57 -!- rain1 has joined. 21:27:21 `olist 1135 21:27:22 olist 1135: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 21:54:07 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:05:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:05:30 -!- Davnit10 has joined. 22:07:26 -!- Davnit10 has quit (K-Lined). 22:08:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:12:28 -!- zopsi24 has joined. 22:13:10 -!- zopsi24 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:26:53 -!- Sharker has joined. 22:28:43 -!- Sharker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:43:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:53:04 -!- Asu` has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:58:55 -!- Cale has joined. 22:59:31 -!- dave49258 has joined. 22:59:57 -!- dave49258 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:01:04 -!- Nietzsche27 has joined. 23:04:04 -!- benoliver99911 has joined. 23:08:32 -!- sleepnap has left. 23:09:32 -!- benoliver99911 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:10:06 -!- Nietzsche27 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:21:54 -!- bradcomp has joined. 23:24:45 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:56 -!- qmr13 has joined. 23:35:32 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:35:37 -!- qmr13 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 23:40:22 -!- tromp has joined. 23:44:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:49:52 -!- Peng6 has joined. 23:51:05 -!- Peng6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2018-08-17: 00:03:51 -!- bradcomp has joined. 00:08:26 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:10:33 -!- stoner1911 has joined. 00:11:50 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 00:12:27 -!- stoner1911 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:16:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:16:38 Well, since I'm spewing the link everywhere else... 00:16:47 I created this Discord server for speaking in/about Interlingua. https://discord.gg/bHk4V4N 00:34:36 -!- tromp has joined. 00:38:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:45:24 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:01:03 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:08:50 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:10:27 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 01:13:09 -!- aloril has joined. 01:28:37 -!- imode has joined. 01:42:59 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:49:00 -!- imode has joined. 01:49:12 I have added many new options into Megapane game 02:13:10 -!- brynjar9 has joined. 02:15:05 -!- brynjar9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:21:58 -!- tromp has joined. 02:24:55 -!- Guest63686 has joined. 02:26:44 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 02:32:27 -!- Guest63686 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:52:10 -!- xkapastel has joined. 03:14:59 -!- agree has joined. 03:16:14 -!- tromp has joined. 03:16:35 -!- agree has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:19:44 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:21:00 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:53:58 -!- crayfishx has joined. 03:57:39 -!- crayfishx has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:09:44 -!- tromp has joined. 04:13:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:21:10 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:40:49 -!- Facilitating has joined. 04:41:26 -!- Facilitating has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 04:43:29 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:47:59 When will the next version of SQLite be released? I want the version with window functions (and some bug fixes, one of which I reported, and it has been fixed now but not released yet) 05:29:20 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 05:32:54 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:56:55 -!- tromp has joined. 06:01:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:15:30 -!- Brace24 has joined. 06:23:02 -!- Brace24 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:35:49 -!- CGML16 has joined. 06:44:57 -!- CGML16 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:53:29 -!- tromp has joined. 06:57:31 -!- RyanKnack9 has joined. 06:58:14 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:01:41 -!- RyanKnack9 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:03:43 -!- captain425 has joined. 07:08:04 -!- captain425 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:08:06 -!- cheapie16 has joined. 07:10:34 -!- cheapie16 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:33:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:35:48 -!- imode has joined. 07:38:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 07:50:05 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:54:46 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:06:04 -!- tromp has joined. 08:07:54 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:23:09 -!- neo-cool0 has joined. 08:23:20 -!- some_weirdo29 has joined. 08:25:26 -!- neo-cool0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:26:14 -!- some_weirdo29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:27:37 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:45:17 -!- usrX has joined. 08:46:26 -!- usrX has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 08:47:00 -!- israfel has joined. 08:48:07 -!- israfel has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:05:37 -!- Rune_K has joined. 09:06:35 -!- Rune_K has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 09:09:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:19:02 -!- __idiot__ has joined. 09:21:01 -!- __idiot__ has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 09:24:11 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 09:24:58 -!- atslash has joined. 09:25:33 -!- ksx4system19 has joined. 09:28:54 -!- ksx4system19 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:35:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 09:47:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:48:48 zzo38: be patient. window functions are a major new functionality, not trivial to implement correctly without compromising the usual reliability of sqlite, they need some time to iron out the bugs. 09:51:15 -!- arseniiv has joined. 09:56:07 -!- MDude has joined. 09:56:57 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:15:49 -!- tromp has joined. 10:20:45 -!- Exagone31323 has joined. 10:21:07 -!- Exagone31323 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:52:53 -!- verm1n26 has joined. 10:54:52 -!- verm1n26 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 11:40:08 -!- Guest30398 has joined. 11:40:48 -!- Guest30398 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 12:07:52 http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/intelligence => "Original"? dude, that's basically the plot of the *Phineas and Ferb* special episode "Night of the Living Pharmacists" upside down. It's not original. Very few of SMBC is. 12:41:54 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:19:15 -!- patate29 has joined. 13:26:21 -!- patate29 has quit (K-Lined). 13:47:10 -!- Guest42469 has joined. 13:48:36 -!- Guest42469 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 14:03:50 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:14:33 wob_jonas: your comment reminded me one of details I loved in P&F: that evil scientists there are _always_ thought of as pharmacists by laymen :D 14:50:37 arseniiv: one of the many running gags, yes 14:54:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 14:55:59 -!- Fieldy5 has joined. 14:59:56 -!- zeroed has joined. 15:00:09 -!- Fieldy5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:02:16 -!- zeroed has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:10:07 -!- agree19 has joined. 15:11:15 -!- agree19 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 15:13:09 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:18:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:22:25 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:28:37 -!- benoliver99919 has joined. 15:28:58 -!- benoliver99919 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:35:36 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 15:43:35 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:05:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:06:46 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 16:09:42 The SD cards I ordered on ebay have arrived in the mail today from Hong Kong. Hopefully they're genuine Kingston, not fakes. 16:10:46 But the surprise is: the envelope has postage stamps. There's someone who still uses postage stamps today, and sells consumer electronics. At least the address is on adhesive paper printed with a laser printer, not typewritten. 16:14:39 -!- XorSwap has joined. 16:16:31 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:17:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:20:42 I'll be able to test the write speed of course. If the write speed isn't what they promised, then it's a fake. 16:21:54 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 16:26:55 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 16:31:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:33:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:36:06 -!- zseri has joined. 16:45:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:49:15 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 16:55:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:55:30 wob_jonas: I think you are correct about window functions, but I have not seen any recent coding about window functions (although at the time there was, there was many changes due to fixes due to bugs and that stuff) 16:57:08 -!- ollien13 has joined. 16:57:40 @messages 16:57:40 You don't have any messages 16:57:57 -!- ollien13 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 16:59:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:00:32 Would you want window functions in UPDATE statements? 17:03:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: sorry for my connection). 17:04:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:04:23 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:04:31 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 17:04:56 Wow, guess what 17:05:06 `ehlist http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/comics/2657949/when-it-all-lands-right-in-your-lab/ 17:05:07 ​/srv/hackeso-code/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ehlist: not found 17:05:26 Everyday Heroes continues, with a new artist 17:12:15 -!- th3bmw has joined. 17:13:13 -!- th3bmw has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 17:18:41 Do you know how to write in Latin? http://zzo38computer.org/gurpsgame/1.ui/wiki?name=Session+9 If you know then the mention of the Latin inscriptions, we can mention in there, their writing in Latin as well as English; currently I only have English. (Near the beginning of that there is the mention of the Latin inscriptions in the box) 17:19:28 zzo38: no, I don't know how to write in latin 17:27:09 -!- SunTsu22 has joined. 17:31:36 -!- SunTsu22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:35:07 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 17:36:28 zzo38: I’ll ask my calligraphic friend 17:37:34 -!- atslash has joined. 17:44:12 -!- anderson25 has joined. 17:44:52 OK, hopefully they know 17:44:56 -!- anderson25 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 17:46:28 zzo38: now just asked, let’s wait for an answer 17:48:19 OK 17:49:26 -!- tswett has quit (Quit: Page closed). 17:50:12 -!- imode has joined. 17:57:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:59:50 -!- blacksyke5 has joined. 18:00:19 -!- blacksyke5 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 18:03:34 he somewhat struggles to translate “really” in these cases, maybe he’ll translate it later after consulting dictionaries, if it’s not urgent 18:04:57 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:07:09 We just had a short (few minute long) power outage affecting more than this house. It was immediately obvious, because I heard a generator spin up, and I was in a mobile phone call (2G) and the call broke and then the cell tower coverage restarted 20 second later. The cell tower is on a taller house on the other side of the street. 18:09:12 arseniiv: It isn't urgent, so that is OK. 18:11:41 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 18:14:44 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:15:50 And a second power outage, but only for like 30 seconds this time. Cueing house alarms immediately. I guess the electricity grid was switching back from some backup connection to the normal one. 18:16:52 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 18:17:27 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:17:59 -!- Tux1 has joined. 18:19:03 -!- Tux1 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 18:20:57 `? infrastructure 18:20:58 infrastructure? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 18:21:22 -!- Guest20720 has joined. 18:21:45 . o O ( Infrastructure is what you don't notice or care about unless it's failing. ) 18:21:52 -!- Guest20720 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 18:22:26 yes 18:26:00 -!- Nothing4You21 has joined. 18:26:22 -!- Nothing4You21 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:28:18 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 18:35:32 -!- tromp has joined. 18:41:57 shachaf: I'm playing Running out. while I think an alien that doesn't speak in the standard galactic alphabet is unrealistic, obviously other parts of game design override that. 18:42:50 Speech in alphabets? I thought is the alphabet to use for writing. 18:43:20 -!- Kirito has joined. 18:43:33 The game is very helpful with giving a lot of labels: even before I get past the first obstacle (which I could do even without reading anything) I could decode so many labels that I have the transcription of 22 out of 26 ASCII letters, and since most of them appear in multiple uses, I can even confirm which one is the typo you were talking about 18:43:57 zzo38: well, the game shows the alien's speech as writing in the user interface 18:44:19 or telepathic communications, if he's doing that. I don't know which. 18:44:29 Yes, it can, OK 18:44:48 Still maybe some telepathic communications are difficult to understand 18:46:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 18:46:15 -!- Kirito has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:49:53 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:53:20 23 out of 26, I forgot one 18:53:28 no wait 18:53:31 it's still 22 out of 26 18:53:33 I can't count 18:53:42 basically, most letters except for the rare ones 18:58:52 Yeah you can dig into the resources for the remaining 4-5 letters. 19:00:06 I don't need them until they appear in some label, and they'll probably be unambiguous the first time I meet them 19:00:39 wob_jonas: you won't encounter them :P 19:00:59 then I won't need them 19:02:35 oh! the inventory typo makes even more sense now 19:03:06 hmm, maybe there are two typos 19:03:11 :) 19:03:46 what I don't like is how quickly some text replies disappear 19:03:50 error messages typically 19:03:55 two wrongs^W^W two typos in the same place don’t make an untypo 19:05:19 wob_jonas: I made screenshots and then copied new letters in The Gimp :P 19:05:58 int-e: sure 19:06:02 I'm making screenshots too 19:06:05 still, it's annoying 19:06:13 so yes, I agree, they are too fast 19:06:13 and sometimes error messages appear partly outside the screen 19:06:19 just a little bit, but still 19:06:23 they shouldn't do that 19:06:44 -!- Warped26 has joined. 19:11:40 one En-Ru dictionary tells me that “typo” is a typographical jargon for “typographer” first. Is it outdated or is it really in use by some outdated^W typographers? I mostly use En-En dictionaries these times, but sometimes I want to translate a word or other, and this dictionary then often confuses me by its strange articles or by lacking a translation for a vital, common phrase (mostly going Ru→En for this one) 19:13:04 -!- Warped26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:13:13 everyone is a typographer these days 19:13:57 (more seriously I thought it stood for "typographical error" and has found a new life simply meaning "spelling error" perhaps even "typing error") 19:14:19 In any case typos certainly aren't what they used to be. 19:17:11 I'm at the first hard puzzle part after the introduction 19:18:21 I agree nowadays “typo” is not anything typographical but is specifically a typographical error, and by transfer, a spelling or typing mistake, but so blarantly write it means “typographer” nowadays without even tagging it properly… 19:19:14 blatantly* 19:21:16 just can’t believe were they (that dictionary’s compilers) that inconsiderate? 19:22:01 they totally could have been, though 19:22:25 how many entries are there, when was the entry added, and when was it last revised? (the latter information would be a useful addition to dictionaries (am I sounding like zzo38?))) 19:23:43 int-e: if it doesn't tell when it was last revised, then either it's an old dictionary or a cheap bad one. 19:23:57 wob_jonas: I meant on each individual entry 19:25:58 I think that would only make sense in a digital dictionary online that is refreshed continuously 19:26:03 So, perhaps this would be meaningful information: how big is the market for en-ru dictionaries? This correlates with how much effort publishers can put into creating, verifying, and updating those entries. 19:26:16 now I'm trying random commands by the way, in case one of them works 19:26:57 oh! found it 19:27:07 fresh meat? 19:27:19 yes 19:30:54 And yes, my first guess from the game title and the Diablo inventory window was right 19:31:46 damn I missed that 19:32:12 int-e: have you played the wire game, also by tom7? wire connector 19:32:24 it had a softlock bug, which tom7 knew about but didn't have time to fix 19:32:26 nope 19:32:36 and my guess was that he turned that bug into a game feature now 19:33:29 Kirk is still smiling, of course 19:33:36 if so, he subverted it 19:34:27 I think that would only make sense in a digital dictionary online that is refreshed continuously => yeah, it’s a digital one but not a web one, it was originally shipped on CDs with its shell app 19:35:16 arseniiv: is it updated in any way after the CDs? 19:35:22 also, can you tell what dictionary it is? 19:35:49 if it's based on a paper dict, it's possible that for most entries they simply don't have the info of when it was last modified recorded 19:35:50 -!- lucy_ has joined. 19:36:08 -!- GTAXL1 has joined. 19:37:03 the developer came to be famous for OCR software, but they also worked with various digital+linguistic stuff, so some dictionaries for various language pairs, mostly Ru↔other 19:38:49 -!- GTAXL1 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 19:39:03 and sometimes messages are buffered so you have to wait until the old irrelevant ones scroll past before you see the newest message 19:39:55 -!- lucy_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:40:11 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:40:27 I'm at the second or third puzzle and the obvious things I tried don't work 19:40:31 I'll try other stuff 19:41:34 ah, found the next thing 19:41:52 -!- zseri has joined. 19:42:16 2008, 100k articles, 37 references to dictionaries, British National Corpus and a specialized forum, hm 19:42:58 arseniiv: is this a ru<->en dictionary? 19:43:04 -!- Texou5 has joined. 19:43:29 I think I found a small text bug 19:43:47 not typo, just message showing in inappropriate case 19:43:50 -!- Texou5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:44:35 hi Kirk 19:44:36 wob_jonas: I think there are newer versions of it, but I think these “archaic mentions” here and there are there almost from the start, so maybe they remain further, too (let me search something…) 19:44:50 also I think they’ve taken too much 19:45:23 if it's based on a paper dict, it's possible that for most entries they simply don't have the info of when it was last modified recorded => yeah there are references to many paper dictionaries 19:45:25 [[Your Minsky May Vary]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57346&oldid=46037 * Zseri * (+5) 19:46:32 Ah yes! Space! 19:48:02 and a blatant physics violation 19:50:38 and now I'm solving the inventory puzzle 19:50:45 well, trying to solve 19:52:25 -!- tomek8 has joined. 19:52:52 do I have to restart from a soft-lock? but even then I don't quite see 19:52:55 ... 19:54:04 I don't get it 19:54:12 -!- tomek8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:56:02 ah, got it 19:56:12 ok, now this will get ugly 19:56:24 but totally characteristic of tom7 19:57:34 Is it possible in DOSBOX to set the date/time only for one DOS session? 19:59:44 the end. I don't know if there's a true ending I missed. 19:59:56 but it faded to dark and took me back to title screen 20:00:24 wob_jonas: is this a ru<->en dictionary? => yeah, to and from 20:00:45 arseniiv: is it a good one? or are you still trying to decide that? 20:01:40 wob_jonas: congrats, and thanks for getting rid of those pesky aliens :) 20:02:16 Kirk says "Please make yourself". I don't know if I've made myself. 20:03:46 I tried to fetch the dump from esolangs.org via zsync, which fails. But it succeeds if I manually download the zsync file to use http instead of https. Maybe http should be the default when the zsync file is fetched via http; and via https if the zsync file was fetched via https? 20:03:49 wob_jonas: I use it rarely these times. A while ago, I used an earlier version of it more often and I haven’t mistranslate anything AFAIR 20:04:20 mostly it sucks when I search for an interjection or a common phrase, to find it missing 20:04:20 wob_jonas: it's "Please make yourself at home!" 20:04:49 (which is a strange phrase) 20:04:49 but it’s simply because it’s not that big 20:04:53 I thought it was "Please make yourself comfortable" 20:05:09 my answer to that is usually "aw, but home's an hour away and i just got here!" 20:05:13 If there's a true ending, then either it's connected to Kirk, or to that one item I couldn't find out what to use for 20:05:55 what game is this 20:06:22 quintopia: tom7's new game, http://runningoutof.spacebar.org/ 20:06:30 wob_jonas: there's no other ending. 20:06:31 an esoteric one certainly 20:06:35 shachaf gave some spoilers 20:06:42 int-e: have you read all the code? 20:06:51 and I found this one perfectly satisfactory. 20:07:11 what? the one I got just faded black and went back to the opening title screen 20:07:12 wob_jonas: Oh, huh, you never did use that one item, did you 20:07:24 Opening title screen? It didn't go to a music-playing screen? 20:07:41 music-playing, but the opening title is also a music-playing 20:07:54 oh no waity 20:07:55 wob_jonas: I got a black screen, rather than the opening screen 20:08:00 it's not the same screen 20:08:03 As far as I know the game ends when you bibcbfvg gur pncgnva'f obql 20:08:04 it's a different ending screen 20:08:10 black and with "um, credits" 20:08:35 no 20:08:39 black and with um, "credits" 20:09:17 I wonder if someone's already submitted a real-time speedrun somewhere 20:09:35 or a let's-play 20:10:38 TASR 20:12:27 anyway, typo; the third letter of the third command is wrong... or perhaps it's just alien terminology. 20:12:33 fizzie: zsync dump sync fails often if https is used in Z-URL in the .zsync file, but it doesn't, if http is used (my local installed zsync doesn't seem to work well with https); is it possible to let the zsync file use https in Z-URL if ..xml.zsync if downloaded via https; and http otherwise? 20:12:46 int-e: no, that's what I thought at first, but no: 20:12:55 wait what 20:12:58 third letter? 20:13:00 oh 20:13:01 that too then 20:13:16 that might be alien terminology, yes 20:13:36 don't forget that tom7 invents words like "unibycle" and "anaglyph" 20:13:47 I think it's the last letter of the second command that's wrong 20:13:49 "alient terminology" is certainly the excuse I would use if I were tom7 :) 20:14:04 s/alient/alien/ 20:14:12 int-e: The third command is the one I wrote above in rot13? 20:14:12 it is at least consistently used that way in messages 20:14:23 Oh, I see. 20:14:42 it's not only typoed in the command, also in messages 20:14:44 shachaf: yes 20:15:08 wob_jonas: and the file names for the animation 20:17:23 hehe, kirk has directional hearing. if you stand in front of him, he doesn't reply. 20:21:02 oh cool. tom7 is a cool guy. i'll check it out later. 20:21:52 quintopia: this is a game he made for a game creation marathon, where he composes original graphics, music, gameplay and game implementation to a short deadline 20:21:56 called ludum dare 20:22:08 he has made several such games in the past, linked from his internet 20:26:09 -!- fsamareanu29 has joined. 20:26:16 -!- fsamareanu29 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 20:26:17 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 20:26:38 [[Esolang talk:Wiki dumps]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57347&oldid=30649 * Zseri * (+552) /* Troubleshooting */ new section 20:30:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:42:37 -!- sielicki has joined. 20:47:41 There is Tom7's "Escape" game, possibly after Free Hero Mesh is made, it can be ported to Free Hero Mesh. 20:48:27 -!- sielicki has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:49:16 wob_jonas: connector world is so brutal 20:50:22 int-e: not compared to this 20:50:29 this new game that is 20:59:32 It looks like there will likely be no rain or wind on Saturday or Sunday. I might risk not taking a jacket. 20:59:48 I'll decide it tomorrow morning. 21:01:16 I have to leave. Goodbye, everyone. 21:01:19 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:02:22 I got a message from valgrind that says "Warning: set address range perms: large range [0x395a5040, 0x74f51a40) (undefined)" do you know what this message is? 21:02:39 -!- TheSilentLink18 has joined. 21:02:51 -!- TheSilentLink18 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 21:04:53 Actually I think I figured out why; the difference of those two numbers is the same as the SQLite maximum length of a SQL statement, and I had a allocation of that size even though it should be smaller, but I fixed it now 21:06:47 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: reboot). 21:11:18 -!- FreeFull has joined. 21:28:58 -!- Numline13 has joined. 21:33:44 -!- Numline13 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:42:02 -!- EdSaperia24 has joined. 21:45:36 -!- TheoM has joined. 21:46:40 -!- EdSaperia24 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 21:46:41 -!- TheoM has quit (K-Lined). 21:49:23 Despite that I still do not know why it says "(undefined)" afterward and those stuff, although I found out the mistake in my program that caused that message 22:11:51 -!- Miklo4 has joined. 22:15:57 -!- Miklo4 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:19:35 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:20:58 -!- loppy2 has joined. 22:23:42 -!- loppy2 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:24:39 Do you know if DOSBOX can emulate PC joysticks? 22:35:27 -!- kspencer6 has joined. 22:35:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:40:43 -!- kspencer6 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:48:56 -!- mentifis12 has joined. 22:49:45 -!- mentifis12 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 22:54:27 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:07:27 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:13:46 -!- gpolitis26 has joined. 23:13:54 -!- bradcomp has joined. 23:14:03 -!- gpolitis26 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 23:29:52 -!- MikeSpears10 has joined. 23:30:51 -!- MikeSpears10 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 23:33:57 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:36:52 -!- MJ9413 has joined. 23:38:40 [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57348&oldid=55332 * Qwertyu63 * (-1853) 23:39:38 -!- MJ9413 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 23:52:25 [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57349&oldid=56030 * YamTokWae * (+75) /* Commands */ 2018-08-18: 00:04:57 [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57350&oldid=57349 * YamTokWae * (+748) /* Commands */ 00:13:00 [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57351&oldid=57350 * YamTokWae * (+4) 00:18:43 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:22:23 -!- \oren\_ has quit (Quit: leaving). 00:24:20 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:32:00 -!- Xenthys28 has joined. 00:32:00 -!- Xenthys28 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 00:48:19 -!- XorSwap has joined. 01:04:07 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 01:08:53 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:09:02 -!- brandonson has joined. 01:14:32 -!- nodist has joined. 01:56:07 -!- Compu has joined. 01:57:51 -!- Compu has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 02:10:02 -!- bradcomp has joined. 02:10:05 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:18:48 -!- imode has joined. 02:19:36 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:32:09 I don't know if there are similar ideas from other philosophers like my ideas of dual free will and transcendental deterministic free will. 02:33:39 what is that idea? 02:33:41 i never heard that 02:35:50 My ideas are: Dual free will assumes a nondeterministic universe, and there are two kind of free will, being classical free will and quantum free will; quantum free will is more free but is also less effective than classical free will. Transcendental deterministic free will means a deterministic universe that uses transcendental numbers in the initial state in order to make a kind of free will. 02:36:27 (This argument does not prove the existence of free will, but it allows it to be possible.) 02:52:05 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:06:07 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:07:19 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:33:01 -!- nodist has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:39:37 -!- Guest56478 has joined. 03:40:13 -!- Guest56478 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 03:43:17 I still don't see how the Greeks thought it was a good idea to have free will be in opposition to determinism, what with determinism meaning your actions are determined by your own traits? 03:43:52 pikhq, halp I seem to be mentally designing yet another Tcl OO system 03:44:12 can you design my language instead 03:44:13 twh 03:44:17 {*}$foo somemethod to call a non-mutating method, mut foo somemethod to call a mutating method 03:44:34 Mutation requires a variable name just like incr does 03:46:01 Is that what determinism means? Wikipedia says: "Determinism is the philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do. The theory holds that the universe is utterly rational [...]" 03:46:49 O, there is also a list of the varieties 03:48:20 (Of course then you have to define free will too, I suppose.) 03:55:12 Sgeo: Friends don't let friends do yet another Tcl object system. 03:56:01 I think the one I'm imagining sort of takes inspiration from both that transparent one + a bit of Rust (distinction between mutation and not) 03:57:21 -!- Brace15 has joined. 03:57:57 -!- Brace15 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 03:58:57 -!- yar29 has joined. 03:59:55 Incidentally, is there a way to pass a variable name to a proc without forcing the proc to use upvar? 03:59:55 -!- yar29 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 04:00:07 I mean, "previously existing causes" could be taken to invlude personal traits. 04:00:39 Yes, that is part of it. But even in case of nondeterminism, there is partial determinism. 04:01:21 Sgeo: Don't think so honestly 04:01:50 Suppose I could make my own proc-like that does it automatically, for convenience sake 04:04:50 -!- kamkran22 has joined. 04:05:28 -!- kamkran22 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 04:05:52 -!- clog has joined. 04:11:28 -!- nodist has joined. 04:13:50 -!- nodist has quit (Client Quit). 04:23:26 -!- WhitePhosphorus2 has joined. 04:24:27 -!- WhitePhosphorus2 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:28:56 Although Tcl has too many ways to represent anonymous functions, command prefixes remind me of currying which is nice 04:48:15 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:56:00 -!- tromp has joined. 05:00:28 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 05:06:27 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:29:09 -!- EdSaperia3 has joined. 05:29:48 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:31:08 -!- EdSaperia3 has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 05:49:28 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 06:06:02 -!- bradcomp has joined. 06:11:07 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:19:03 -!- tktech21 has joined. 06:19:15 -!- tktech21 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 06:19:41 The Free Hero Mesh file format, although it splits the puzzle set into four files rather than only one, the class definitions are stored in text format rather than binary, and the additional headers needed for each level and picture as well as the extra copy of the class and user message list required in the level file, it is still less than a third of the original file size. 06:22:29 I have now documented the format of the .xclass .level .solution files, although the .class file still is not yet documented. 06:31:58 -!- tromp has joined. 06:36:32 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:04:36 -!- tromp has joined. 07:08:01 -!- S_Gautam has 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14:45:43 -!- apollo1324 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 14:57:44 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:02:35 https://github.com/rust-lang-nursery/error-chain/pull/252 15:04:44 -!- Guest3871 has joined. 15:09:18 -!- Guest3871 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:26:22 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:43:00 [[Unfedern]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57352&oldid=57323 * Zseri * (+23) 2018 15:57:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:01:22 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:47:46 -!- RussellB2819 has joined. 16:49:53 -!- LEI3 has joined. 16:50:49 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 16:52:23 -!- RussellB2819 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:52:28 -!- LEI3 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 17:24:02 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:25:09 -!- meffe has joined. 17:25:33 -!- meffe has changed nick to Guest45640. 17:26:02 -!- Guest45640 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 17:28:09 -!- tromp has joined. 17:36:43 * int-e wonders whether tromp has been up to anything interesting (for this channel) recently. 17:41:07 -!- gsdg has joined. 17:44:06 -!- gsdg has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:46:08 there was a new BLC paper 17:46:16 https://tromp.github.io/cl/LC.pdf 17:46:50 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:53:15 Ah, nice, though technically there's nothing really new in there... 17:54:11 yaeh 17:58:52 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:59:48 -!- bradcomp has joined. 18:02:16 -!- felt has joined. 18:08:57 -!- felt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:10:40 -!- nodist has joined. 18:14:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:16:21 rain1: also I'm wondering whether there's anything new in that paper since 2014 :) 18:20:42 And at a glance (scrolling through two PDFs) the answer is "no". 18:24:29 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:25:43 -!- tromp has joined. 18:26:15 -!- nodist has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:27:22 zzo38: they finally settled on “rēvērā id nōn vīs” and “jam tibi dīxī tē id nōlle” resp.; wait a second and I tell you in how many ways it could be written 18:29:14 -!- bradcomp has joined. 18:30:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:30:48 -!- felt has joined. 18:31:26 macrons (ā) here aren’t a classical diacritic to indicate vowel length, so you would possibly want one of the following things: 18:33:49 -!- tromp has joined. 18:34:17 (a) to omit it altogether, (b) to replace it with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apex_(diacritic) (in that article, it’s also said that Í is written as a so-called long I, but you could write an apex anyway, as I am unsure if this form of I is in Unicode) 18:36:45 also, with apices you could use a small caps lettering and J → I, U → V. If you don’t want to mark vowel lengths, it’s probably better to leave all as it is, only to capitalize first letters of phrases if you wish 18:38:12 in these cases it should look AFAIR more like a classical inscription (apices, small caps, no JU) or a medieval/renaissance one (no apices) 18:42:57 -!- felt has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:43:20 -!- subleq_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:43:36 -!- subleq has joined. 18:46:50 -!- felt has joined. 18:49:22 -!- maxalt11 has joined. 18:51:09 -!- felt has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:53:32 OK, but what are the meaning of those? I don't know Latin so well. Then I can add them into the proper places 18:57:33 -!- maxalt11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:57:50 -!- Matthew_19 has joined. 18:58:01 Thank you to figure it out though 19:04:08 -!- change has joined. 19:04:20 -!- Matthew_19 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:08:53 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:12:17 -!- change has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 19:15:15 [[Talk:Unassignable-ABCDXYZ equivalency proof]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57353&oldid=11581 * Zseri * (+375) 19:17:38 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:19:20 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:20:34 zzo38: the first for the first in the text and the second for the second 19:21:01 first on the outside of the box and second inside 19:21:28 I’ll relay your thanks :) 19:25:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:33:10 OK 19:40:11 -!- tromp has joined. 19:51:34 -!- jcline12 has joined. 19:51:36 -!- nodist has joined. 19:53:19 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:53:38 * oerjan sort of thought latin used fewer pronouns than that 19:53:48 pro-drop and all 19:54:38 -!- jcline12 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:55:20 -!- felt has joined. 19:58:59 -!- felt has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:17 I don't know if it is or not, using fewer pronouns than that. 19:59:34 -!- bradcomp has joined. 20:01:30 it's rare to use pronouns in Latin except for emphasis, as verbs have "implied" pronouns along with them 20:01:35 -!- nodist has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:01:37 which they default to if no subject is reasonable 20:01:44 I think you can use pronouns for the object reasonably enough 20:01:51 *if no subject is given 20:05:39 What is the case in the Latin inscriptions mentioned in my story? 20:06:30 i suppose the only actual finite verb there is dixi, whose pronoun _is_ missing. 20:06:39 -!- mlhess has joined. 20:06:52 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:08:08 the first sentence seems to have dropped the verb for to be instead of the pronoun (which may also be common) 20:08:48 oh well i'm no expert. 20:11:02 -!- mlhess has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:11:39 -!- bradcomp has joined. 20:13:23 -!- eir17 has joined. 20:19:13 -!- eir17 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:20:20 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:22:53 -!- earlz5 has joined. 20:22:54 -!- bradcomp has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 20:23:00 -!- earlz5 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 20:23:19 -!- bradcomp has joined. 20:23:43 Is there variant of OpenID which can be used without a HTML document or stuff like that, making it independent of the user interface? (How exactly you then identify will depend on the server working. Of course there can still be protocols, e.g. HTTP(S) or FTP or Gopher can be used to automatically download an information file.) 20:27:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:32:48 -!- nikivi11 has joined. 20:38:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:41:58 -!- nikivi11 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:01:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:07:20 -!- themill2 has joined. 21:07:36 -!- themill2 has quit (K-Lined). 21:24:42 -!- atslash has joined. 21:25:03 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:52:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 21:56:13 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 21:57:14 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:59:02 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 21:59:19 -!- Shibe19 has joined. 22:01:32 -!- pj7 has joined. 22:03:29 -!- Shibe19 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:10:38 -!- pj7 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:12:33 -!- siso_10 has joined. 22:15:38 -!- siso_10 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 22:16:19 -!- grumble has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:20:02 -!- grumble has joined. 22:20:24 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 22:23:29 -!- bradcomp has joined. 22:27:35 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:28:14 -!- imode has joined. 22:37:23 -!- bradcomp has joined. 22:48:29 -!- kline17 has joined. 22:52:34 -!- yaewa has joined. 22:53:11 -!- kline17 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:53:38 -!- yaewa has quit (Client Quit). 22:54:08 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:56:07 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:56:29 -!- \oren\ has joined. 22:56:36 -!- xkapastel has joined. 22:56:39 <\oren\> https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/954088127500733730/34060460FB95C746608C9E2C3930A1CAA668E9D7/ 23:03:43 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:04:44 -!- evil has joined. 23:05:48 -!- evil has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:12:14 -!- bradcomp has joined. 23:14:45 -!- moei has joined. 23:20:56 -!- Phanes has joined. 23:28:57 -!- Phanes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:30:32 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 23:34:10 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:39:06 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 2018-08-19: 00:20:55 -!- Omnious has joined. 00:21:31 -!- Omnious has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:27:16 -!- KellerFuchs28 has joined. 00:28:19 -!- KellerFuchs28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:42:24 -!- bradcomp has joined. 00:55:03 -!- bsanford has joined. 00:55:26 -!- bsanford has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 00:56:46 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 01:06:48 I think that the Dawkins scale is fail to consider the difference kind of ideas how is meant by "God" (and what is meant "exists" in this context, too) (including, that you can't know what it means). 01:08:59 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:11:40 -!- OPK9 has joined. 01:17:54 -!- OPK9 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:26:26 -!- Kronuz14 has joined. 01:31:30 hm 01:32:14 -!- bradcomp has joined. 01:32:35 -!- Kronuz14 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:32:57 I think general public definitely in average doesn’t know what it means by “exists”, and I see only two ways to define this word more or less unambiguously and usefully, both of which define existing relatively: 01:34:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 01:36:31 one is for “A exists in mathematical/physical theory B” (any modern physical theory contains some mathematical theory and “bindings” of it with experimentally checkable) 01:37:14 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:39:13 -!- bradcomp has joined. 01:40:11 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 01:47:27 or not a physical one — any scientific theory admitting a precise definition (i. e. a mathematical one) somewhere inside in its workings; 01:48:34 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 01:49:17 -!- bradcomp has joined. 01:54:36 another IIRC is for “(A exists in sc. theory B) upto accuracy C”, in this case it’s not atomic (and thus I think I have thought of something else originally) as it boils down to the first and “sc. theory is valid upto accuracy C” 01:57:57 so we can say “electrons exist”, and behind the scenes it means we pick any theory which defines them (classical electrodynamics, quantum electrodynamics etc.) and mean such an accuracy level that that theory holds — in everyday life it’s usually a very low level (and a pure mathematical theory always holds if we’re all think it’s sound) 01:58:30 or we can say “2 exists”, and it admits even more contexts where it’s true 01:59:59 there could be contexts where it’s meaningless or indeterminate or false (e. g. if we define 2 ≡ 1 + 1, and the theory knows about 1 and +, then 2 exists; if we also want 2 > 1, then in some cases 2 doesn’t exist) 02:00:48 these definitions are very useful IMO and they capture that we usually speak inside a vast context 02:02:11 but I’m still unsure abouth the second. When I find my notes, I’ll write if it’s laid out right 02:03:10 but, as about e. g. Dawkins, there are also useful existential _presumptions_ 02:07:55 they could be thought of as a propositions (maybe axioms) of some very general theories which is hard to place exactly in what domain of knowledge they are, but philosophers these days say they have figured this out. This metatheoretical stuff is a dim part and it’s not that essential to workings of science or everyday scientific worldview 02:10:26 it’s not IMO that interesting as an existence. Also several formalizations of logic treat existence differently in details, so that underlying logic must be included in a mentioned theory, if one to be boring enough 02:13:27 also these are cases when “is valid” for a theories is not enough, then there comes “is useful (to a consensus, or to someone like me)” 02:13:32 subtlety 02:15:59 -!- insidious23 has joined. 02:18:15 oops I’ve completely missed. I was defining what is truth, not existence. It’s more general 02:21:49 so we have a mathematical truth (depending on a logic and a theory in it) or an experimental truth (depending on a precision). “Electron exists” will be the first, many experiments on this or that electrodynamics would give us tons of the second ones. Then we could combine truths of both kinds and say electrons exist with this accuracy 02:23:16 of course it’s a first approximation, but it’s about right for everything ontological an average man like me will need 02:25:02 -!- insidious23 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:26:26 an important corollary to this definition of truth is that absolute truth is a non-entity. Any truth is relative, but of course not in a sense it is usually used by politicians or journalists 02:31:56 -!- maxalt10 has joined. 02:32:28 -!- maxalt10 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 02:32:52 zzo38: ^ if you want 02:33:43 I looked at this 02:34:58 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 02:35:29 okay 02:37:34 bye, going to sleep finally 02:39:28 -!- stasoid has joined. 02:45:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 02:49:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:50:52 -!- bradcomp has joined. 02:56:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:03:00 -!- joepie919 has joined. 03:04:08 -!- joepie919 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 03:05:50 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57354&oldid=57343 * Stasoid * (+155) /* Introductions */ 03:06:31 [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57355&oldid=8279 * Stasoid * (+141) /* Exit command in string mode */ new section 03:09:08 [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57356&oldid=57355 * Stasoid * (+121) /* Name capitalization */ new section 03:11:59 -!- tromp has joined. 03:14:14 -!- stasoid_ has joined. 03:14:28 -!- drot29 has joined. 03:15:00 -!- stasoid has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:16:31 -!- stasoid has joined. 03:17:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:17:07 -!- drot29 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:18:13 -!- stasoid has quit (Client Quit). 03:33:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:35:13 -!- LKoen has joined. 03:36:23 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 03:36:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 03:38:19 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:40:57 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:06:09 -!- tromp has joined. 04:10:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:11:22 -!- zch has joined. 04:11:40 -!- zch has quit (Client Quit). 04:16:11 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:57:03 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SelfMod * New user account 04:59:32 -!- tromp has joined. 05:02:05 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57357&oldid=57354 * SelfMod * (+173) /* Introductions */ hi 05:03:52 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:19:52 -!- bradcomp has joined. 05:21:23 -!- Nazca has joined. 05:21:56 -!- Nazca has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:28:44 -!- Cronus28 has joined. 05:28:48 -!- johnpark_pj has joined. 05:29:07 -!- Cronus28 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 05:33:19 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:35:29 -!- johnpark_pj has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:38:50 -!- spirit_pact9 has joined. 05:42:32 -!- vespaper has joined. 05:44:18 -!- spirit_pact9 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:45:03 -!- vespaper has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:52:25 -!- wraeth16 has joined. 05:53:29 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10:26:59 [[Puzzlang]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57358&oldid=40488 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational Class */ Link TC 10:49:23 -!- zseri has joined. 11:02:57 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:25:10 -!- poxifide27 has joined. 11:28:07 -!- poxifide27 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 11:35:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 11:38:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 11:38:21 -!- JStoker21 has joined. 11:41:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:41:53 -!- JStoker21 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:07:42 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. 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Anywhere.). 17:34:34 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 18:03:00 -!- bradcomp has joined. 18:07:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:27:32 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:37:55 -!- bradcomp has joined. 18:39:50 -!- TheoM has joined. 18:42:27 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:46:57 -!- TheoM has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:09:49 -!- bradcomp has joined. 19:12:34 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:23:05 -!- unknown29 has joined. 19:23:44 -!- unknown29 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 19:28:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:29:24 Many C programs are designed to return a null pointer in case of error and something else if it is OK, but how common is it to return a null pointer if it is OK and not null if it is an error? Sometimes I have done that in some cases. 19:30:45 Go functions often do that with the second return value. 19:31:18 x, err := f(); if err != nil { ... } 19:31:46 It's not a pointer, but some glibc functions have an annoying idiom with errno that works similarly. 19:32:05 (errno = 0; x = f(); if (errno != 0) { ... }) 19:32:23 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 19:35:40 Some functions in Free Hero Mesh return null if OK or a constant error message if it is an error (although some errors are fatal and will cause the program to terminate instead). 19:37:27 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:38:48 jix: you have some questions for you on Talk:Axo 19:39:25 * oerjan cannot recall em talking in years... 19:40:48 I don't know of any program language other than C and LLVM which has setjmp/longjmp, even though sometimes it can be good. Also many APIs of many programs can't be longjmp through since it might do something that it doesn't expect 19:43:42 -!- Phantom__Hoover has joined. 19:44:10 hasn't edited the wiki since 2006, yet is still here in the channel :P 19:44:27 i guess i can answer one of the questions. 19:48:02 -!- bradcomp has joined. 19:49:19 [[Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57359&oldid=42647 * Oerjan * (+14) Standardize capitalization to the (mostly) original 20:06:30 hm i think the other question was due to an edit error 20:14:15 -!- DenSchub7 has joined. 20:17:22 -!- Lumpi6 has joined. 20:17:51 -!- DenSchub7 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 20:19:11 -!- kashike3 has joined. 20:20:08 -!- kashike3 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 20:20:09 -!- Janusz7 has joined. 20:21:05 [[Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57360&oldid=57359 * Oerjan * (+35) grm, fix ancient rewriting error 20:22:12 -!- Janusz7 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 20:22:29 Why does SQLite have a sqlite3_result_blob64() function but no corresponding sqlite3_value_bytes64() function (at least according to the documentation)? 20:22:39 jix: never mind, i found the answers 20:22:58 -!- Lumpi6 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:26:03 [[Talk:Axo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57361&oldid=57356 * Oerjan * (+554) Fixed errors 20:27:20 Presumably the reason is due to the limit which is limited to 32-bits (having interfaces with 64-bit numbers can be useful in case you do not want to implement that by yourself), but it should probably be mentioned in the documentation of sqlite3_result_blob64() and so on that it is limited otherwise you might think the limit is longer if you do not check elsewhere. 20:27:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:29:25 (Since it is already limited to one billion anyways.) 20:29:43 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57362&oldid=57080 * GDavid * (+569) /* Mathematics */ 20:32:35 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:32:43 (If a sqlite3_limit64() function is ever added, then a sqlite3_value_bytes64() function may be necessary.) 20:41:03 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 20:41:17 -!- atslash has joined. 20:41:20 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 20:48:03 <3 null pointer dereferences. 20:49:29 Null pointer dereferences? 20:51:03 or near enough: SEGV on unknown address 0x000000000008 20:52:14 What program is that? 20:55:14 Ar maybe address sanitizer is playing tricks on me. It's my own program but the error is thrown in a library. 20:55:46 [[Puzzlang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57363&oldid=57358 * Oerjan * (+52) /* Overview */ Use horizontal space instead of vertical 20:56:11 * oerjan vaguely wonders if someone changed it the opposite way before 20:56:58 Sometimes that happens if you pass improper arguments to the library. 20:57:43 zzo38: well I found my real mistake and address santizer is still complaining. so I guess that interacts badly with the library (it's an OpenCL thing) 20:58:34 Sometimes the mistake is actually in the library; it is not always your own mistake. 21:01:50 -!- imode has joined. 21:02:23 It's somewhat interesting... the Intel OpenCL runtime reads from the zero page, and the nvidia one doesn't even show up to the party, if I enable the address sanitizer. 21:04:48 http://paste.debian.net/1038537/ 21:09:56 -!- matlock has joined. 21:12:00 cute, intel's vendor id is 0x8086 21:16:27 -!- matlock has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:18:47 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:20:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 21:22:13 -!- Guest32399 has joined. 21:26:54 -!- bradcomp has joined. 21:27:05 -!- Guest32399 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:30:09 How common is programs that use SQLite databases also allowing the user to use SQL to write extensions for the program? 21:30:49 -!- cats28 has joined. 21:31:38 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:36:50 -!- cats28 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:37:15 -!- imode has joined. 21:53:30 shachaf, did you real latest OOTS book? 22:12:18 No. 22:12:38 I'm waiting to order the The Complete Olist of the Stick book 22:12:46 Which is a shame because it'll probably never be released? 22:18:54 . o O ( just put $1 into a bank account so you'll be able to pay for it when it is released ) 22:20:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:20:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:29:00 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:29:30 zzo38: if you care, https://github.com/google/sanitizers/issues/629 has some information relevant to why the nvidia platform "disappears" with address sanitizer. 22:30:28 (and indeed it doesn't do that if I use ASAN_OPTIONS=protect_shadow_gap=0) 22:30:30 -!- imode has joined. 22:30:34 -!- bradcomp has joined. 22:33:27 :) 22:35:20 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 22:55:32 -!- bradcomp has joined. 22:59:43 [[TRAVEL 33]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57364 * GDavid * (+3624) Created page with "TRAVEL 33 is an esolang invented by [[User:GDavid]]. It's capable of sending information in time, even backwards therefore it's uncomputable.
It got it's name from the f..." 23:00:03 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in). 23:00:19 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:08:02 Is anyone on here willing to help to write the picture editor program for use with Free Hero Mesh? It should not use any libraries other than those used by Free Hero Mesh itself, ideally, but maybe there is other idea 23:12:01 what is free hero mesb 23:15:08 Here is a wiki and source repository: http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/wcontent The file format for the pictures is documented, and you can also look at the source codes. You can also add feature requests, bug reports, add more documentation if you want to, etc. So far I wrote all of it by myself, and expect I will continue to write most of it, but I also accept contributions if there are any. 23:19:42 Free Hero Mesh is a program to make puzzle games. 23:22:27 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:26:36 Are all of the documentation of the file formats sense or is something difficult to understand? 23:30:07 Free Hero Mesh is designed for puzzle games played on a rectangular grid (no larger than 64x64), without any randomness or any timing; it is purely turn-based. Hidden information is partially supported for classes with the CF_QUIZ flag set, although it is recommended not to hide information. 23:31:23 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:33:49 -!- bradcomp has joined. 23:36:20 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:42:07 -!- Guest88463 has joined. 23:42:32 @google "bio-integrity metadata" 23:42:33 https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/9497271/ 23:49:35 -!- Guest88463 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:52:14 -!- tromp has joined. 23:54:38 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 23:57:02 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 2018-08-20: 00:02:14 -!- Phantom__Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 00:12:33 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 00:14:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 00:22:11 -!- nodist has joined. 00:23:34 -!- tromp has joined. 00:28:26 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:31:50 -!- imode has joined. 00:48:59 this heromesh thing sounds awesome 01:01:00 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 01:03:13 -!- atslash has joined. 01:03:31 rain1: Did you look at the documents/source-codes? 01:04:14 -!- bradcomp has joined. 01:04:41 no just ruod your description here 01:04:43 ead* 01:07:57 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:12:46 -!- nodist has quit (Quit: Leaving). 01:17:03 -!- Pilfers has joined. 01:17:31 -!- Pilfers has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 01:28:24 -!- Mikaela-8 has joined. 01:29:50 -!- Mikaela-8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:31:11 -!- Colti24 has joined. 01:39:57 -!- Colti24 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:42:19 -!- ecrist1 has joined. 01:48:15 -!- ecrist1 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:10:37 -!- tromp has joined. 02:15:23 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:49:18 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 03:00:47 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 03:04:49 -!- tromp has joined. 03:09:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 03:18:05 -!- rodgort has quit (Quit: Leaving). 03:21:09 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:25:39 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 03:29:21 -!- rodgort has joined. 03:29:24 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:39:43 [[User:Jix]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57365&oldid=8002 * Jix * (-30) 03:41:39 [[Jannis Harder]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57366&oldid=53682 * Jix * (-269) Remove seriously outdated information, update homepage link 03:58:08 -!- tromp has joined. 03:58:44 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 04:02:38 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 04:23:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 04:24:50 -!- Maple__10 has joined. 04:25:16 -!- Maple__10 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 04:33:59 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:51:50 -!- tromp has joined. 04:56:36 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:26:25 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 05:27:56 -!- w3stside7 has joined. 05:28:38 -!- w3stside7 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 05:41:48 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:45:49 -!- tromp has joined. 05:48:53 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:50:50 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:09:29 -!- sdx2317 has joined. 06:10:17 -!- sdx2317 has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 06:18:54 -!- bradcomp has joined. 06:21:24 [[Surface]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57367&oldid=32526 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken dropbox link 06:21:52 [[M-code]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57368&oldid=23532 * Madk * (+20) 06:22:32 [[Grin]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57369&oldid=44990 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link 06:23:04 [[Tri]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57370&oldid=23607 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link 06:23:59 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:24:05 -!- tromp has joined. 06:26:00 [[Cardinal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57371&oldid=54016 * Madk * (+102) Add mirror for original file 06:26:35 [[Fit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57372&oldid=23552 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken download link 06:27:18 [[Fit]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57373&oldid=57372 * Madk * (+0) 06:27:29 [[Staq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57374&oldid=39382 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken download link 06:28:05 [[PoGo]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57375&oldid=37520 * Madk * (+5) Fix broken download link 06:28:35 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:29:00 [[D1ffe7e45e]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57376&oldid=23528 * Madk * (+5) Fx broken download link 06:34:05 [[Minimal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57377&oldid=54603 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link 06:35:19 [[Vrejvax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57378&oldid=49753 * Madk * (+22) Fix broken download link 06:35:49 [[Vrejvax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57379&oldid=57378 * Madk * (-15) 06:36:47 [[BrainCursion]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57380&oldid=40331 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link 06:37:27 [[Filth]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57381&oldid=18185 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link 06:38:04 [[BF-PDA]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57382&oldid=46405 * Madk * (+20) Fix broken download link 06:38:29 [[BF-PDA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57383&oldid=57382 * Madk * (-13) Remove {{deadlink}} 06:40:46 [[Vrejvax]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57384&oldid=57379 * Madk * (+13) Explain difference between download links 06:47:36 [[User:Madk]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57385&oldid=32519 * Madk * (+141) 07:19:32 -!- atslash has joined. 07:20:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:27:17 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:36:27 -!- bradcomp has joined. 07:40:57 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:48:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:10:06 -!- moei has joined. 08:11:01 -!- tromp has joined. 08:13:34 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:15:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:18:24 -!- tromp has joined. 09:21:00 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 09:24:50 -!- bradcomp has joined. 09:29:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 09:37:47 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 10:13:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:10:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 11:13:08 -!- bradcomp has joined. 11:16:48 [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57386&oldid=57312 * Hakerh400 * (+0) Updated the header 11:17:22 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:29:00 I wonder if the structure "monoid that isn't a submonoid of any group" has any interesting properties 11:29:13 (e.g. booleans with the operation "or" and identity false) 11:41:41 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:40:25 -!- copumpkin has joined. 13:01:26 -!- bradcomp has joined. 13:04:34 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:05:50 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 14:03:19 -!- imode has joined. 14:27:59 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:31:22 -!- atslash has joined. 14:48:12 -!- ABC__ has joined. 14:50:56 -!- slt has joined. 14:51:22 -!- slt has quit (Client Quit). 14:53:24 -!- ABC__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:21:14 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:36:51 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:37:09 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:55:05 Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancellative_semigroup#Embeddability_in_groups 15:55:15 I wonder if the structure "monoid that isn't a submonoid of any group" has any interesting properties <-- apparently it's complicated https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancellative_semigroup#Embeddability_in_groups 15:55:31 oops 15:55:32 You two are very synchronized today 15:55:38 slow ninjaed 15:55:58 Taneb: well the sample size is a bit low 15:58:23 also, GG: things could get really ugly if wooster catches on... 15:58:48 I think we're going to find some interesting things about Higgs in this arc 15:58:51 so far he's been pretty oblivious for a top agent 15:59:02 oerjan: it's possible he already knows 15:59:19 i suppose. 15:59:29 that seems like the safest option. 15:59:30 They were both with Klaus Wulfenbach for a decent while 15:59:37 (I think) 15:59:53 yes, although i have not seen them canonically in the same spot, i looked 16:00:32 Where was Wooster during the Castle Heterodyne mega-arc? 16:00:33 wooster never entered castle heterodyne, i think he left the city before they got out. 16:00:49 Higgs was introduced quite late in that arc 16:00:55 he went to reveal things to the jäger generals 16:01:02 Right 16:01:39 although they were both interacting with the jägers during the years agatha was trapped 16:01:46 (i presume) 16:01:56 but they may still never have actually met. 16:02:36 (higgs obviously visited zeetha who lived with the jägers, and wooster was assigned to them) 16:04:06 i don't think they were with klaus/gil at the same time. 16:05:12 higgs only showed up when klaus got hurt and hospitalized, and gil had sent wooster away just before that 16:05:22 How long would it take for a fresh recruit to become Airman, Third Class? 16:09:37 well he wouldn't be really noticeable during that time, and he may not have been much on castle wulfenbach 16:10:03 which is a big place 16:12:11 oerjan: not active here or on the wiki anymore, but I still see highlights (if I'm not asleep) 16:13:37 oerjan: one mystery is, was Higgs an entity before Mechanicsburg, or was he talent-scouted (by Albia?) afterwards? 16:15:37 Taneb: an interesting class of semigroups (or monoids) that cannot be embeded in a group should be semilattices (or bounded semilattices) 16:19:59 if you assume idempotency (as in semilattices) and cancellation (as needed to embed in a group) you get that every element is the identity element, so you cannot have both (apart from the trivial group) 16:28:35 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:42:05 Taneb: it does seem to stretch logic a bit that higgs could stay close to gil _and_ keep a british navy job at the same time... 16:42:57 jix: as i hoped 16:43:01 -!- zseri has joined. 16:51:17 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 16:51:30 @messages 16:52:12 shachaf, int-e: tom7 posted a blog post on his radar about his new game, and I replied there with my experiences. 17:02:01 @messages 17:02:01 You don't have any messages 17:02:11 zzo38: re SQLITE "sqlite3_result_blob64() function but but no corresponding sqlite3_value_bytes64() function", there's no sqlite3_value_bytes function either. 17:02:36 wob_jonas: whoa whoa whoa, you're mentioning me by name many times 17:03:09 zzo38: see https://sqlite.org/c3ref/result_blob.html 17:03:33 those and https://sqlite.org/c3ref/result_subtype.html are the only documented functions starting with sqlite3_result_ 17:03:41 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 17:03:57 shachaf: is that a problem? tom7 already knows your infamy 17:04:11 and this channel has a public log 17:05:13 but if it's a problem, I can write to tom7 and ask to redact your name 17:09:08 I have infamy? 17:09:15 I guess everything is logged anyway. 17:09:36 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57387&oldid=57362 * GDavid * (+502) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ 17:09:48 shachaf: infamy in that you care about esoteric languages and tom7's esoteric projects 17:11:42 I don't think I've made it onto the Tom 7 radar before 17:14:06 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57388&oldid=57387 * GDavid * (+73) /* Derivative Ideas */ 17:17:40 shachaf: perhaps no, but https://esolangs.org/logs/2017-04-02.html " I made a small comment on the implementation of |, which apparently some other people made as well." 17:18:53 Oh, that's true, I sent a twit once. 17:19:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 17:26:11 -!- Shragazord has joined. 17:39:21 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:39:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:06:11 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57389&oldid=57388 * GDavid * (+379) /* Based on dimensions */ 18:12:42 did it become a character trait? 18:14:42 int-e: what? 18:19:16 wob_jonas: shachaf talked about twits 18:20:04 shachaf: oh, by the way. Given how much the title screen helped, I only grepped the English frequency word list once, for decoding "cylinder" from "c..in.er" 18:21:33 The only other words that caused any trouble were "ovoposit" and "tale", but I didn't grep for them. 18:23:39 "tale" because I assumed for a short time that it was a typo for "take", since you told me there's a typo, but testing its behavior made it clear that it had to be "talk" 18:24:22 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 18:25:00 <\oren\> In france, 80 is the weed number 18:38:22 @tell wob_jonas oh did you miss the difference between 'e' and 'k' in "running out of space"? it's subtle, but it's there. 18:38:23 Consider it noted. 18:52:05 -!- shikhin has changed nick to shikhin-dissents. 18:52:17 -!- shikhin-dissents has changed nick to shikhin. 19:36:46 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:41:51 int-e: wtf, it's "talk" not "tale" even in the compo version. but I transcribed it wrong on my sheet of paper, and only looked at that after. 19:41:55 int-e: I knew there was a difference, because "look" has the "k", and "look" was one of the earliest words I saw 19:42:01 int-e: but then I checked and double checked my paper, and my paper had the alien symbol for "e" 19:42:52 int-e: it must be that, because I trust tom7's integrity in this particular case and I don't think he fixed that annoying typo in the compo version of the game 19:43:58 and I was trying to see a typo because shachaf told me there was a typo in that line and I didn't know the third word was a typo 19:44:45 "Some day when I have a solid week to spare, I'd like to make a complete game in this style." 19:47:25 int-e: yeah, that's not an enforcable promise, but tom7 might even be crazy enough to do it. 19:49:40 wob_jonas: I didn't tell you that. 19:50:52 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:51:15 int-e: and it's because of the shape of "e" and "k" that the closing credits says "tom 7" instead of "tom7", because "tom7" could be confused with "tome". 19:51:56 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 19:52:37 -!- jix_ has joined. 19:55:30 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:55:30 -!- rain1 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:55:31 -!- bradcomp has joined. 19:55:31 oh sorry. that was int-e. he told me there was a typo. 19:55:31 "how many typos are there? it's kind of embarrassing that there's one in one of the commands :)" => well, there was "please make yourself", but none other I think 19:56:39 -!- rain1 has joined. 19:59:15 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:01:48 wob_jonas: that one wasn't a typo, it just got cut off 20:02:05 (and it didn't get cut off for me, somehow...) 20:08:59 int-e: let me re-check that in the compo version 20:08:59 Dunno. 20:08:59 Now the compo says "Please make yourself at home!" too. Strange. 20:08:59 But I checked that multiple times! 20:08:59 I don't understand 20:09:05 -!- grumble has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:09:08 -!- gurmble has joined. 20:09:22 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 20:12:09 Ah! 20:12:16 int-e: there is a typo 20:12:38 if you talk to Kirk once you already have the energy weapon, the screen scrolls differently, and it does get cut off and say "Please make yourself" 20:12:58 Or maybe it's not the energy weapon that matters but just how you scroll the screen 20:13:13 Yeah, it's not the energy weapon. 20:13:17 It's how you scroll the screen. 20:13:45 Depending on how you scroll it, you can make it say "Please make yourself at" too 20:14:23 makes sense 20:14:23 and "Please make yourself at ho" with a single column from the m visible 20:14:26 and probably others 20:14:34 Kirk just talks above himself 20:15:07 It's just like other cases when a message appears in the wrong place 20:17:51 [[Nestplate]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57390 * GDavid * (+1543) Created page with "Nestplate (from the combination of the words nest and template) is a language invented by [[User:GDavid]] to solve the problem that C++ templates are sometimes too readable. I..." 20:18:27 [[User:GDavid]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57391&oldid=57042 * GDavid * (+33) 20:19:50 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57392&oldid=57228 * GDavid * (+16) /* T */ 20:20:22 oh! There's a second solution for the tetris puzzle that I hadn't noticed before 20:20:30 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57393&oldid=57392 * GDavid * (+16) /* N */ 20:20:43 The tool is in different columns in them 20:21:24 no wait 20:21:26 I'm wrong 20:21:28 that's not a solution 20:21:51 There's only one solution. 20:23:56 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:26:50 -!- rain1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 20:48:52 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57394&oldid=57389 * GDavid * (+312) /* Looks Like */ 21:24:07 -!- MDude has joined. 21:52:04 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:12:15 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 22:12:54 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:20:21 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:22:13 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:33:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:37:53 -!- tromp has joined. 22:40:43 -!- Shragazord has joined. 22:41:14 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:41:57 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:08:04 -!- tromp has joined. 23:12:27 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:18:32 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 23:18:46 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 23:23:53 -!- Shragazord has joined. 23:24:50 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:56:44 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 2018-08-21: 00:11:51 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 00:13:42 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 00:33:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 00:46:18 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:37:24 -!- bradcomp has joined. 02:36:27 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:45:39 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:23:35 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:28:40 -!- MDude has joined. 04:25:31 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:27:05 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:27:15 -!- atslash has joined. 04:29:31 -!- tromp has joined. 04:29:40 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:33:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:37:44 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:45:07 [[Joke language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57395&oldid=56583 * Jabutosama * (+145) /* General languages */ added wismaster 05:11:44 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xylochoron * New user account 05:12:14 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 05:35:48 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 05:36:10 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 05:36:20 -!- Esqapezord has changed nick to Shragazord. 05:43:50 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57396&oldid=57357 * Xylochoron * (+116) /* Introductions */ 05:46:26 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57397&oldid=57396 * Xylochoron * (+153) /* Introductions */ 05:47:11 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57398&oldid=57393 * Xylochoron * (+11) /* D */ 06:16:59 -!- tromp has joined. 06:21:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 06:27:19 [[D'ni]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57399 * Xylochoron * (+3252) Created page 06:44:18 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:49:33 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 06:50:58 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 06:59:02 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 07:11:07 -!- tromp has joined. 07:15:31 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:28:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:37:11 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:39:09 -!- tromp has joined. 07:48:04 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:49:39 -!- Shragazord has joined. 08:07:40 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:13:08 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:15:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:25:48 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:26:15 Can we dispell the +R channel flag now perhaps? 08:26:38 `fromroman XCVIII 08:26:40 98 08:27:04 ``` echo "$[$(fromroman XCVIII) + 1]" 08:27:05 99 08:27:21 wob_jonas: still getting spam in another channel 08:28:21 Taneb: ok then 08:31:27 -!- Fogity has joined. 08:40:54 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:42:13 -!- MDude has joined. 09:03:59 -!- Dworf has joined. 09:05:35 -!- Dworf has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 09:21:28 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57400&oldid=57394 * GDavid * (+62) /* Derivative Ideas */ 09:21:48 `toroman 888 09:21:49 DCCCLXXXVIII 09:21:57 `toroman 8888 09:21:58 DMMMDCCCLXXXVIII 09:34:50 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 10:04:03 [[List of ideas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57401&oldid=57400 * GDavid * (+1174) /* Ideas related to esoteric operating systems, esoteric processors and esoteric computers */ 10:27:33 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:28:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:46:23 -!- oerjan has set topic: Welcome to the international tarpaulin for esoteric programming language discussion, design, development and deployment! | https://esolangs.org | logs: https://esolangs.org/logs/ http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf. 10:48:16 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 10:48:45 * oerjan was going to point out the channel isn't technically +R 10:49:20 I wonder if any server uses the HTTP 418 status code as "intended" 10:58:18 `toroman 8000 10:58:19 DMMM 10:58:26 that doesn't seem quite right. 10:58:35 `cat bin/toroman 10:58:36 ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/ 10:58:54 `toroman 7000 10:58:55 DMM 10:59:15 oh i see 10:59:24 `toroman 5000 10:59:24 D 10:59:34 `toroman 500 10:59:35 D 10:59:37 I dislik 10:59:39 e 10:59:45 stop spamming 10:59:50 `cat bin/toroman 10:59:50 ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/ 11:00:32 `sled bin/toroman//s,.XLCDM,DM/XLCDMEE, 11:00:35 bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/ 11:00:41 `toroman 8000 11:00:42 EMMM 11:02:03 `` toroman 1 2 3 11:02:05 I 11:02:13 `toroman 1 2 3 11:02:14 I 11:02:47 `toroman --clockface 4 11:02:48 No output. 11:03:17 `sled bin/toroman//s,print,$_="Number too large" if /E/;, 11:03:18 bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];$_="Number too large" if /E/; k,$/ 11:03:20 oops 11:03:25 `revert 11:03:26 Done. 11:03:34 `sled bin/toroman//s,print,$_="Number too large" if /E/;print, 11:03:35 bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];$_="Number too large" if /E/;print k,$/ 11:03:43 `toroman 8000 11:03:43 EMMM 11:03:47 darn 11:04:07 oh hm 11:04:31 *sigh* 11:04:35 `revert 11:04:36 Done. 11:04:42 `toroman 8000 11:04:43 EMMM 11:04:56 `cat bin/toroman 11:04:56 ​#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/ 11:08:07 ok i don't understand how that works. 11:08:35 so for now it'll just print E for too large numbers. 11:19:01 hm oh. 11:21:20 `sled bin/toroman//s,g;,g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large;/, 11:21:21 bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large;/$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/ 11:21:33 oops 11:21:38 `revert 11:21:39 Done. 11:21:46 `sled bin/toroman//s,g;,g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;, 11:21:47 bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/ 11:21:52 `toroman 8000 11:21:53 syntax error at /hackenv/bin/toroman line 2, near "$t~" \ No comma allowed after filehandle at /hackenv/bin/toroman line 2. 11:22:02 fff 11:22:27 `revert 11:22:28 Done. 11:23:07 oh 11:23:21 `sled bin/toroman//s,g;,g;$t=~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;, 11:23:22 bin/toroman//#!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLCDM/XLCDMEE/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$t=~s/.*E.*/Number too large/;$t}$_=(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0];print k,$/ 11:23:27 too long no perl 11:23:31 `toroman 8000 11:23:32 Number too large 11:23:39 `toroman 800 11:23:39 DCCC 11:24:54 . o O ( note to self: don't say "stop spamming" just before starting HackEso coding ) 11:26:53 :P 11:32:31 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:36:05 I still find the =~ very confusing... my first instinct is to use ~=. 11:36:30 `" 11:36:30 910) an ieee-754 double does not have enough granular precision to express how little I care \ 643) Just because you can't design a reliable Monopoly machine out of chocolate doesn't mean nobody else can. 11:37:30 @google "monopoly machine" 11:37:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9-NIN6Fpls 11:39:08 lambdabot: wtf! 11:39:14 * int-e has regrets 11:54:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 11:57:04 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57402 * A * (+701) New idea. 11:59:41 -!- impomatic has joined. 12:03:40 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 12:04:59 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 12:11:55 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57403&oldid=57402 * A * (+338) comments 12:12:40 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57404&oldid=57403 * A * (+23) 12:23:47 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57405&oldid=57404 * A * (+378) 12:28:57 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57406&oldid=57405 * A * (+288) 12:31:43 :/ 12:33:16 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57407&oldid=57406 * A * (+176) 12:38:42 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57408&oldid=57407 * A * (+221) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */ 12:40:16 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57409&oldid=57408 * A * (+0) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */ 12:43:57 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57410&oldid=57409 * A * (+196) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */ 12:51:39 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57411&oldid=57410 * A * (+8) I think I sound too rude. 12:53:39 ...spam 13:33:24 -!- Torgeir has joined. 13:36:55 -!- Torgeir has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:37:43 -!- zseri has joined. 13:47:07 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:56:52 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:08:23 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:16:00 -!- Shragazord has joined. 14:18:23 -!- nkuttler0 has joined. 14:22:46 -!- nkuttler0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:37:50 [[Fish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57412&oldid=53269 * Kaa-kun * (+17) 14:46:11 [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57413&oldid=46851 * Kaa-kun * (+528) Quick before I merge with the other bots! 14:47:07 [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57414&oldid=57413 * Kaa-kun * (-2) What the heck happened? 14:49:09 [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57415&oldid=57414 * Kaa-kun * (-53) /* Last HalfOr Is It? */ 15:06:30 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:08:36 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:11:54 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:13:24 -!- Shragazord has joined. 15:22:29 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:41:45 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 15:41:57 -!- zseri_ has joined. 15:44:07 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 15:45:16 oerjan: toroman is based on my old golf code. it is only guaranteed to work for valid input, that is, integers in 1..3999 inclusive. on other integers, it might give a stupid result, but it won't have bad side effects 15:45:22 -!- zseri has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:45:24 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:45:24 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 15:46:56 `toroman nonsense 15:46:56 No output. 15:47:07 `toroman 3stooges 15:47:08 Number too large 15:47:25 `toroman 8foldway 15:47:25 Number too large 15:47:36 `toroman 8 15:47:37 VIII 15:47:40 `toroman 8t 15:47:40 LXXX 15:47:57 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 15:48:27 s/ dispell the / dispel the / 15:48:32 (way earlier) 15:50:15 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:50:27 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 15:59:19 `olist 1136 15:59:20 olist 1136: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 15:59:40 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:10:04 -!- Shragazord has joined. 16:10:50 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 16:10:53 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:39:33 got any recommendations esolang for a first time? one which is interesting and wont make me want to kill myself? 16:44:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:49:02 Shragazord: I quite like Piet, personally 16:49:31 http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet.html 16:51:50 ok that is weird but very interesting 16:52:11 It was actually the first programming language full stop I ever learnt! 16:53:25 even before the mainstream ones? 16:54:58 Yeah 16:55:07 I was... eleven or twelve, I think 16:55:51 And now I work for a company that does Haskell, circuit design, and neural networks, all at once, so go figure 16:56:40 Is it artificial neural networks or the real thing? 16:57:00 The former, I'm afraid 17:06:13 `olist 0 17:06:14 olist 0: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 17:06:45 whoa, a bonus olist? 17:07:37 `help olist 17:07:39 olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html 17:11:31 `olist 1137 17:11:32 olist 1137: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 17:12:10 `toroman 0x1 17:12:11 I 17:12:18 `toroman 0xff 17:12:19 No output. 17:12:27 `toroman 0x16 17:12:27 XVI 17:12:36 `toroman 3000 17:12:36 MMM 17:12:39 `toroman 4000 17:12:39 Number too large 17:12:43 `toroman 3999 17:12:44 MMMCMXCIX 17:13:22 `help me 17:13:24 Me is a proud member of the tEaM. 17:13:30 ah. 17:13:46 `help help 17:13:47 ​`help [] gives HackEgo's default help message, or help for a specific command. Or currently possibly some other wisdom. 17:15:37 `help help help 17:15:38 ​`help help? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:15:53 `help "help help" 17:15:54 ​`"help help"? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:16:09 `help toroman 17:16:10 ​`toroman? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:16:16 oh 17:18:11 `help 17:18:11 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch [] " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 17:27:28 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 17:40:01 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 17:41:47 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:41:56 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 17:43:35 So, I've got a ridiculous project in mind 17:43:56 I've just ordered a receipt printer 17:44:28 I'm going to try to use it as a computer terminal 18:07:48 -!- badet0s25 has joined. 18:12:30 -!- badet0s25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:13:40 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 18:15:56 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 18:20:32 -!- imode has joined. 18:24:55 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 18:25:45 -!- atslash has joined. 18:27:10 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:34:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 18:37:35 -!- sparr has quit (*.net *.split). 18:38:28 -!- sparr has joined. 18:42:17 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (*.net *.split). 18:43:06 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 18:44:08 -!- sawdey21 has joined. 18:47:59 -!- limbo has joined. 18:48:54 -!- sawdey21 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:49:42 -!- limbo has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 19:12:32 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 19:17:21 -!- xkapastel has joined. 19:17:25 -!- ekl- has joined. 19:20:06 -!- lambdabot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:20:50 -!- ekl- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:23:29 -!- lambdabot has joined. 19:34:04 -!- zemhill____ has quit (*.net *.split). 19:34:04 -!- rdococ has quit (*.net *.split). 19:34:06 -!- zemhill____ has joined. 19:38:39 -!- rdococ has joined. 19:39:11 -!- lifthrasiir_ has quit (*.net *.split). 19:39:13 -!- trn has quit (*.net *.split). 19:39:13 -!- mniip has quit (*.net *.split). 19:39:15 -!- Storkman has quit (*.net *.split). 19:39:17 -!- Storkman_ has joined. 19:39:22 -!- trn has joined. 19:40:38 -!- mniip has joined. 19:45:30 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 19:47:52 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:48:27 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 19:51:03 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:51:46 zseri_: I think you mean o strip number 1136. 19:52:35 I know some people can see tomorrow's qwantz strip, but I'm quite sure it's literally impossible in the case of o. The Giant has said that he doesn't use a buffer, it wouldn't work for him, he posts any strip when it's complete. 19:53:31 -!- sftp has joined. 19:53:39 He might be lying 19:53:54 there might be telepaths 19:53:57 shachaf: not in that case 19:53:59 time travelers 19:54:00 etc 19:54:10 precogs, I guess, is the next one 19:54:15 int-e: yes, but they shouldn't ring the obell early 19:54:31 `' obell 19:54:31 No output. 19:54:35 `' 19:54:36 682) @more @more @more @more @more @more @more :( 19:54:38 `? obell 19:54:39 obell? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 19:54:50 the obell is what you ring with the `olist command 19:55:05 wob_jonas: yeah I did get that 19:55:13 go and help the Giant instead by downloading all the strips from the future and sending them to him so he can draw them more easily. 19:55:29 I think I had a wisdom for it, but deleted it when I deleted my most silly wisdoms 19:55:36 `culprits wisdom/obell 19:55:38 wob_jonäs b_jonäs 19:55:41 see 19:55:44 I just don't care about oots. 20:00:50 -!- mniip has quit (Ping timeout: 608 seconds). 20:07:48 `' indent 20:07:49 59) i use dynamic indentation, i indent lines k times, if they are used O(n^k) times during a run of the program 20:08:14 that's... pretty good 20:08:53 you could make a language out of that 20:09:43 the more you execute a lie of code, the more it needs to be indented 20:10:19 we'd automate that with profile-guided indentation 20:10:56 and you can put short loops in one line to inline them 20:11:00 um 20:11:02 unroll them 20:11:19 would be heaven for those people who keep asking "how can I do ... in one line?" on perl forums 20:11:31 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 20:11:50 just don't allow more than one command per line 20:11:55 also, goto only 20:12:18 oh, like the good old 60's and 70's? 20:12:26 s/'//g 20:12:42 . o O ( style rule 0) always indent newlines all the way to the end of the line ) 20:14:35 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 20:14:51 -!- atriq has joined. 20:17:42 -!- Taneb has quit (Disconnected by services). 20:17:49 -!- atriq has changed nick to Taneb. 20:19:27 -!- bradcomp has quit (*.net *.split). 20:19:30 -!- ineiros has quit (*.net *.split). 20:20:15 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:39:56 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:40:19 -!- zseri_ has quit (Quit: Leaving). 20:49:02 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 20:55:15 -!- mniip has joined. 21:33:25 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:37:33 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 21:40:01 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 21:43:16 -!- GeekDude has joined. 21:48:18 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:49:43 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:02:58 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 22:27:30 -!- subo has joined. 22:29:01 -!- subo has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:32:36 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:35:52 -!- moei has joined. 22:46:21 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:53:31 -!- Cory has joined. 22:53:55 -!- Cory has changed nick to Guest4964. 22:58:15 -!- Guest4964 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:14:25 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:31:26 -!- cottongin0 has joined. 23:33:19 -!- cottongin0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:35:42 -!- MDude has joined. 23:39:21 -!- boily has joined. 23:43:29 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 23:43:46 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 23:44:07 -!- atslash has joined. 23:48:09 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 2018-08-22: 00:15:58 "This is perhaps not the answer you are looking for, but it is indeed a programming language (it is Turing complete)" 00:16:24 I think Turing completeness is neither sufficient or necessary for something to be a programming language. 00:24:05 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 00:26:08 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 01:05:01 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 01:23:38 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SULFUROUS CHICKEN). 02:32:37 Are .sid files turing complete? I think they may be turing complete 02:40:29 They do contain 6502 machine code. I should totally make an infinite length one 02:41:32 Machine code is usually not TC. 02:46:21 Though, by the same line of reasoning nor is C. 02:46:53 Just an FSM with a fairly large state. 02:49:15 -!- AlwaysHigh18 has joined. 02:49:51 Right. 02:51:53 Not that it helps you much. Sufficiently large state makes things like a halting predicate practically infeasible even if they are theoretically permissible. 02:52:39 -!- AlwaysHigh18 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:55:53 I was wondering recently how much of the algorithmic reasoning people do doesn't really make sense in the presence of even a large upper bound. 03:19:57 I wonder if 6510 machine code could be considered turing complete if you put assumptions on what address 0 and 1 do (e.g. maybe you could send a signal to switch RAM out in a tape-like fashion) 03:20:09 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 03:20:32 Or 6502 + special address in memory for shenanigans like that 03:29:27 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 03:40:39 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 03:58:30 it's not too difficult to extend the 6502 to arbitrary bit-lengths, I think 03:58:51 well, might get silly after a bit, but I've worked with a 24-bit version a bit 04:06:20 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 04:17:35 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 04:17:35 -!- rdococ has joined. 04:18:11 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 04:18:26 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 04:21:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:30:04 -!- irc-5225225 has joined. 04:32:00 -!- irc-5225225 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:54:51 -!- Shragazord has joined. 05:56:43 Taneb: sounds interesting 06:03:59 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:17:05 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:22:04 Minima.sid by Wyndex seems to play forever 06:22:31 STIL gives a shorter duration though. If someone were to make a song that infinitely varies.. hmm 06:23:58 (STIL = text file describing all the music in HVSC (High Voltage SID Collection)) 06:28:24 Oh huh STIL isnt where players get song lenght, there's a Songlengths.txt 06:37:15 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 06:41:35 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 06:51:17 -!- irrationalist has joined. 07:12:15 -!- irrationalist has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:19:20 -!- d1b26 has joined. 07:22:58 -!- d1b26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:29:49 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:34:43 -!- fractal1 has joined. 07:35:13 -!- fractal1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:59:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:08:17 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:09:41 -!- atslash has joined. 08:11:51 -!- xa0 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:13:28 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:17:42 -!- hsr93 has joined. 08:18:31 -!- hsr93 has quit (Client Quit). 08:19:51 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:25:40 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 08:30:12 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:30:13 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:30:18 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:32:40 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:32:40 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:34:17 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:34:17 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:35:31 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:35:31 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:36:30 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:36:30 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:37:43 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:37:43 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:39:09 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:39:09 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:40:02 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:40:03 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:43:03 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:43:03 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:48:44 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:48:44 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:49:39 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:49:39 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:50:24 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:50:24 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:51:14 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:51:14 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:52:04 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:52:05 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:54:30 -!- xa0 has joined. 08:54:31 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 08:55:27 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:55:53 -!- atslash has joined. 10:13:57 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 10:18:27 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:50:21 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:51:31 -!- Shragazord has joined. 11:19:26 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:02:21 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 12:04:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:06:54 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 12:22:23 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:40:35 -!- xa0 has joined. 12:40:36 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 12:45:14 -!- xa0 has joined. 12:45:36 I'm going to try to use it as a computer terminal <-- now you're reminding me of when _i_ was about twelve... 12:46:03 [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57416&oldid=57351 * YamTokWae * (+56) 12:46:16 oerjan: the difference, I expect, is I have a full time job 12:46:22 and my dad brought home a printer with modem and phoned a mainframe 12:46:43 So I can afford all the receipt printer rolls I want 12:46:51 OKAY 12:46:56 Anyway continue your story 12:47:24 I thought you were going to go somewhere different when I started writing my result 12:47:29 hm my father used to bring home used scrolls of printing paper for me to write on 12:48:44 this was a printer normally used for logging events at the telecom building 12:48:55 well they had several of them, iirc 12:49:27 anyway, he phoned it up and we tried out Sintran BASIC 12:50:12 and this was only about the second time i'd used a computer, the first time was when on holiday and someone had an Apple something. 12:50:28 back in approximately 1982 12:51:04 i'd already learned BASIC from reading a book 12:51:12 well, some BASIC. 12:52:46 i think i wrote some programs on that scratch paper, without a computer :) 12:53:04 complex arithmetic iirc 12:53:30 end of story, i guess 12:54:09 :) 12:54:33 -!- rain1 has joined. 12:54:37 he got 7000 stars for implementing certificate delivery in BASH https://github.com/Neilpang/acme.sh 13:03:50 rain1: Hi! 13:03:56 hi 13:04:25 * int-e is still appalled by that repo 13:04:39 i think it counts as esoprogramming 13:05:45 full of gems like... if [ -f "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" ]; then . "$ACCOUNT_CONF_PATH" fi 13:05:58 (aka configuration file parsing in bash) 13:10:03 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 13:12:30 -!- FreeFull has joined. 13:25:52 -!- LKoen has joined. 13:30:48 -!- G33kDude has joined. 13:32:09 [[User:YamTokWae/Sandbox]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57417&oldid=57416 * YamTokWae * (+1883) Finally done! 13:34:35 [[Pxem]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+6245) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Pxem |paradigms= |author= |year=[[:Category:2008|2008]] |typesys= |memsys= |dimensions= |class= |refimpl= |majorimpl= |dialects= |influence= |in..." 13:35:40 [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57419&oldid=57398 * YamTokWae * (+11) /* P */ Pxem added! 13:39:26 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:42:23 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:44:15 Asimov, or whoever was the editor of the short story "Mother Earth", has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian": "https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v43n03_1949-05_cape1736#page/n58/mode/1up" . Don't you just love the English language and its uniformity? 13:45:35 [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57420&oldid=57418 * YamTokWae * (+496) 13:50:39 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 13:55:20 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 13:59:53 -!- ep100 has joined. 13:59:55 someone reads Tom Siddel’s GC here? 14:00:22 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 14:05:11 has written "an historian" consistently instead of "a historian"> interesting. Could it be the case it was pronounced as a[nɪ]storian by him? I seem to hear [h] elides here and there in some cases 14:06:55 arseniiv: there's a very varied amount of initial h-dropping in various English dialect. I've asked about it previously in #esoteric, and some people pronounce initial h in every word, some drop it in lot of words. 14:11:57 I only drop English initial h in "hour, honest, honesty, honored, honorable" and possibly in "herb, heir, heirloom" (I'm undecided about those rare words) 14:13:37 -!- nkuttler28 has joined. 14:15:50 -!- nkuttler28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:21:37 I pronounce the h in herb but not in heir or heirloom 14:21:43 But then again I pronounce the b in debt 14:23:59 debt to all traitors 14:25:50 Taneb: how about all the other h words? "have, he, his, her, here, how, hand, happen, head, hear, hear, help, high, hold, home, house, half, happy, hard, health, heart, hey, himself, history, hit, hope, hour, however, human, hair, handle, hang, hate, heat, heavy, hell, herself, hi, hide, hospital, hot, hotel, huge, hundred, hurt, husband", 14:27:02 is that an exhaustive list of h words? 14:27:21 "hall, hardly, healthy, hello, hill, hire, historical, hole, holyday, honest, honey, honor, horse, host, housing, huh, hunt", and most importantly, the original example "historian" 14:27:30 wob_jonas: hour is the only one in that first list 14:27:46 honest, honor in the second list 14:27:53 I pronouce the h in historian 14:28:09 (In particular I would say "she is a historian", not "she is an historian") 14:29:01 But it used to be the rule at "an" went before a word beginning with "h" in all cases 14:29:52 further, "ha, habit, harm, hat, heal, heaven, height, helping, hero, highlight, highway, hip, historic, holy, hook, horrible, household, hug, hungry", 14:29:58 (for reference I'm a native speaker from the north-east of England with one Australian parent) 14:30:15 wob_jonas: none of those do I drop the h 14:31:31 and now we're getting the uncommon ones: "habitat, halfway, hallway, halt, hammer, handsome, harbor, hardware, harmony, harsh, harvest, haul, haunt, headache, headline, headquarter, healthcare, heel, helicopter, helmet, hence, herb, herd, heritage, hesitate, hike, hint, Hispanic, holder, homeland, homework, hop, horizon, hormone, horn, horror, host 14:31:31 age, hostile, humanity, humor, hunter, hurricane, hypothesis" 14:32:45 I'm actually unsure about "heritage" too 14:33:48 Taneb: right. much of my pronunciation comes from the times when outside of English-speaking countries, language courses teached received pronunciation. 14:34:16 I pronounce the h in all of that last list as well 14:34:40 wob_jonas: I don't think of myself having much of a dialect and then I realise that I really do 14:35:08 I just hear enough not-English people that a lot of English accents sound quite similar to me 14:35:20 Taneb: with which vowel do you pronounce "can't dance"? 14:36:52 I don't know the IPA, but a long a, almost "ar" for "can't", and a short a for "dance" 14:37:38 -!- andrew_ has joined. 14:37:47 -!- andrew_ has quit (Client Quit). 14:38:13 If you remind me about nine tonight BST, I'll send you a recording 14:38:19 (going to the cinema after work) 14:38:19 -!- andymclaren has joined. 14:38:43 -!- andymclaren has quit (Client Quit). 14:39:26 Taneb: do you pronounce them with the first vowel of "father", or the vowl of "cat", or neither? 14:40:17 can't and father are similar 14:40:29 cat and dance are very slightly different? 14:40:32 recording doesn't help much alone, because it's only all the vowels in relation that are important, not the individual realziations 14:40:59 strange. 14:41:02 `? can't 14:41:03 can't is the most frequent word whose pronunciation varies between /ɑː/ and /æ/ depending on dialect. A list is: advance after answer ask aunt brass can't cast castle chance class command dance demand disaster draft enhance example fast glass graph grass half last laugh mask master nasty pass past path plant rather sample shan't staff task vast 14:41:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 14:41:10 I think I kind of cut the vowel short in dance but not in cat? 14:42:04 that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English 14:42:17 must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 14:44:11 (Sorry, I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's popsci book, and he makes it like God created the earliest particles, then someone else who sounds like Morgoth created the Higgs-boson in an attempt to ruin the perfect symmetry of God's creation, 14:45:25 but then when God asked Morgoth why he did that, Morgoth lied that he only did it to make the world richer, and God knew that while Morgoth thinks it's a lie, it's actually true, because Morgoth could do nothing that He didn't already anticipate, and the Higgs boson actually makes the world complicated but beautiful in a way that nobody but God him 14:45:25 self foresaw, 14:45:39 and that's how the stars and physicists were born.) 14:45:59 Naturally 14:47:32 (So now if the physicists are working hard enough to defeat the Higgs-boson, then they will see it, and God lets them see it and the original simple beauty behind it too and how the two together allowed to make nucleuses and stars and physicists to get created.) 14:53:29 (Some of that is what I'm imagining into the book though, not what Lenderman actually wrote.) 15:26:08 -!- bradcomp1 has joined. 15:29:17 is that an exhaustive list of h words? => lol 15:30:19 it's actually a representative list from a reputable source 15:30:32 filtered through my noise 15:31:43 -!- piklu18 has joined. 15:34:10 wob_jonas: that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English // must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism => IMO it should go to the quotes :D 15:34:27 `? wisdom 15:34:28 wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø? 15:35:33 have any of you used the Java/Scala parsing library Parboiled? any thoughts? 15:35:46 `? quote 15:35:47 Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb. 15:36:00 `? qdb 15:36:02 qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat 15:36:10 -!- piklu18 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:36:39 `? addquote 15:36:40 addquote ? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 15:36:45 wah 15:38:42 `? quoteformat 15:38:43 quoteformat is: message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two. 15:39:28 oerjan: I'm not here, and I can't be trusted with HackEso anyway, but if you're still here and could guide arseniiv in using HackEso, that would be great 15:39:57 arseniiv: basically you can just say `addquote message message 15:40:16 but make sure the quote is worthy to keep without context, or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context 15:40:44 it's an art rather than a science, and I'm not very good at it, although there are some quotes I added, and some I said 15:40:50 `addquote that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 15:40:52 1327) that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 15:41:06 wob_jonas: I hope I made it right and worthy :) 15:41:27 I do believe quoting is an art, too, yeah 15:42:35 `ping 15:42:36 pong 15:43:22 oerjan: hackeso doesn't reply to my private messages. is this deliberate? 15:43:26 ``` cat bin/allquotes 15:43:27 ​#!/bin/sh \ nl -w 1 -s ') ' quotes 15:44:14 or rather, that you include exactly the right amount of context => totally agree. I have seen many quotes in the wild, which were concluded by an author’s reaction. It’s weird and uncomfortable 15:45:43 wob_jonas: ftr HackEso responds me to "`quote" 15:45:54 ``` hg log -T "desc\000" quotes 15:45:56 desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc.desc. 15:46:05 and pongs too 15:46:18 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\000" quotes 15:46:19 11610 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism.11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter.11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft.11580 addquote 15:46:36 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | perl -we "" 15:46:37 No output. 15:46:41 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes 15:46:42 11610 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism \ 11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11580 ad 15:47:22 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" 15:47:23 No output. 15:47:35 what? 15:47:43 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^<[^>]*erjan[^>]*>" 15:47:44 No output. 15:47:49 ah right 15:47:58 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*erjan[^>]*>" 15:47:59 11589 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585 addquote i\'m sending this from within a computer on minecraft \ 11551 addquote Taneb: are you suggesting the Tanebvention joke might be getting slightly old shachaf, not at all I would never suggest that it\'s getting slightly old \ 11346 15:48:06 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" 15:48:08 11439 addquote oh, we also need a Donate effect Harmless Offering is the obvious choice given that we\'ll mostly be donating Hungry Lynxes \ 10204 addquote basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI \ 9620 addquote please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually u 15:48:30 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:48:42 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+3 15:48:43 9620 addquote please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually use the L\xe2\x88\x9e metric (they can go eight ways) \ 9236 addquote hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps \ 9234 addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps 15:49:12 HackEso not trusting me enough to respond in private message is probably a feature, not a bug 15:49:58 ``` hg log -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes | grep -Ei "^[0-9]* <[^>]*_jonas[^>]*>" | tail -n+5 15:49:59 9234 addquote ais523 hmm, I just remembered that I was formally trained to tune harps 15:50:11 after that was when they taught me about `? quoteformat 15:50:32 ``` hg log -c 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes 15:50:33 hg log: option -c not recognized \ hg log [OPTION]... [FILE] \ \ show revision history of entire repository or files \ \ options ([+] can be repeated): \ \ -f --follow follow changeset history, or file history across \ copies and renames \ -d --date DATE show revisions matching date spec \ -C --copies show copied files \ -k --keyword TEXT [+] do case-insensitive search for a given text 15:50:57 ``` hg log -r 9235 -T "{rev} {desc}\n" quotes 15:50:58 9235 delquote 1291 15:51:07 sorry, -c would be the correct option for svn 15:53:38 `quote L3 norm 15:53:38 1295) please make a connection between L1, L2, L3 norm and L1, L2, L3 cache twh shachaf: modern caches actually use the L∞ metric (they can go eight ways) 15:53:52 `quote _jonas 15:53:52 1200) oerjan: the original purpose was to make a language in which I write ugly source code, and it's compiled to readable standard ml and readable prolog code; but I sort of ran out of time and the readable part got dropped so now the compiled code is even more ugly than the original \ 1221) fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) shachaf: different notation. -o 15:54:18 ``` quote _jonas | tail -n+2 15:54:19 1221) fungot, do you like running double exponential time algorithms? b_jonas: im not sure \ 1266) shachaf: different notation. -o is logical or in find, but it's linear implication in linear logic \ 1269) (make is an esoteric language) b_jonas: Most esolangs I've seen have more comprehensive docs than make \ 1273) boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping 15:55:02 ``` quote _jonas | tail -n+5 15:55:03 1273) boily: sorry for the boring wisdom entries I added. I mostly did it hoping that someone will stumble on them and replace them with something better. \ 1318) b_jonas: hmm, it's fairly surprising that you can make a coherent esolang whose primary feature is that it wasn't written by Donald Knuth \ 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 15:55:16 ``` quote _jonas | tail -n+7 15:55:17 1326) and at least don't put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that's insulting Hofstadter \ 1327) that real-world complexity doesn't fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism 15:56:02 I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? 15:56:05 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:56:24 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:57:13 1318 wut?? 15:58:25 I'm in more wisdom entries than how many I added. is that good or bad? => maybe not 16:02:44 (I mean it could be incomparable to both) 16:08:29 -!- bradcomp1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 16:08:46 -!- bradcomp has joined. 16:20:28 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:42:38 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 16:45:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:07:23 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:08:22 suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts (I'm thinking of making a conlang-inspired esolang and there are good reasons for it to need an alphabet of its own) 17:08:54 what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays 17:09:24 presumably the characters would be in a private-use area somewher? 17:09:26 *somewhere 17:16:32 Can you maybe just fork an Open Source font to get a template, and then just completely rework the typeface to be what you want? 17:17:21 I'm not sure 17:17:30 the characters in this are intentionally very simple and line-segmenty, though 17:17:34 so I think I'd want something much simpler than most fonts 17:17:46 So that might be overkill 17:17:53 a simple vector font would likely be enough, no hinting (perhaps it'd benefit from some kerning) 17:19:03 ais523: for font creation I suppose you could use something like glyphr studio, last time I seen it was JS-based HTML thingie and it was able to export to some of usual font formats 17:19:22 I have it installed but I haven’t played with it 17:19:37 it uses Unicode as an encoding 17:19:55 hmm, "JS-based HTML thingie" seems fairly discouraging, but I guess it might be usable 17:19:59 arseniiv that looks really cool! 17:20:16 ais523: bradcomp: it should be able to do kerning AFAIR 17:20:50 also Inkscape can create SVG fonts but I think its UI for it is way messier 17:22:17 "up to U+FFFF", ugh, that could be a bit of a problem; the private use area is getting fairly crowded already 17:22:55 I don't even know which bits won't clash with other peoples' little-used languages 17:25:03 why not make a standard latinization of your conlang and use characters from that to represent characters of an actual conscript in the font? Ligatures should make for conscript’s interesting traits like custom diactiric behavior, vowel carriers and like 17:25:25 -!- clog has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:25 -!- brandonson has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:25 -!- \oren\ has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:26 -!- puck has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:26 -!- FireFly has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:26 -!- erdic has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:27 -!- joast has quit (*.net *.split). 17:25:30 -!- clog_ has joined. 17:25:30 -!- brandons1n has joined. 17:25:42 -!- erdic has joined. 17:26:04 -!- erdic has quit (Changing host). 17:26:04 -!- erdic has joined. 17:26:18 then if one uses this special font, it looks nice, and if one uses an unaware font, it is magically a transcription 17:27:13 arseniiv: well one feature of this is that it doesn't really correspond to English in any real way 17:27:26 it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet, come to think of it, although it's not quite the same as that either 17:27:54 I guess I could replace characters from an /actual/ syllabary, assuming it was large enough 17:32:45 you could use font ligatures to make e. g. gu gi ga gen ger tu ti ta correspond to separate glyphs than glyphs for g, t, u, i etc. 17:32:55 right 17:33:18 I hope ligaturing in fonts is advanced enough 17:33:30 didn’t investigate 17:33:53 anyway good luck! 17:34:52 I can't work on it right now 17:35:02 -!- joast has joined. 17:35:05 I wasn't considering a pronunciation for it up to this point 17:35:09 although I guess having one might be useful 17:35:20 the original concept was entirely as a written language 17:35:24 you might as well try to pronounce brainfuck 17:35:46 hmm, there surely must be a brainfuck derivative intended to be pronounceable, there's a brainfuck derivative for basically everything 17:41:56 -!- sparr has quit (Changing host). 17:41:56 -!- sparr has joined. 17:43:24 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:45:43 ais523: the original concept was entirely as a written language => ah I see. If there would be less than ~30 glyphs, it could have been passed for a consonantal alphabet, but as you’ve said it’s meant to be a syllabary, then it probably has much more 17:46:01 well, it's a sort of compositional syllabary 17:46:23 each character has two components that are orthogonal to each other 17:46:33 treating it as a spoken language, I guess you'd interpret that as consonant/vowel 17:47:19 something like abugida https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abugida then 17:47:47 yes, I think an abugida is the right term 17:55:01 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:55:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:55:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:09:10 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 18:25:47 -!- alercah has left. 18:34:44 -!- oren has joined. 18:37:28 -!- oren has quit (Client Quit). 18:39:06 -!- brandons1n has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:40:16 -!- \oren\ has joined. 18:41:55 -!- Effilry has joined. 18:42:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:43:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:43:55 -!- Effilry has changed nick to FireFly. 18:44:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Changing host). 18:44:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:44:38 -!- \oren\ has quit (Client Quit). 18:44:42 -!- xkapastel has joined. 18:45:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:50:54 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 19:29:46 -!- jusWindTwo has joined. 19:30:26 -!- jusWindTwo has left. 19:46:02 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:52:56 -!- brandonson has joined. 19:54:02 -!- Toppogiggio has joined. 20:26:15 -!- puckipedia has joined. 20:46:49 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:48:36 -!- imode has joined. 20:50:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 20:53:20 -!- oren has joined. 20:53:31 why is freenode so buggy lately 20:53:50 ? 20:54:29 int-e: today SASL was timing out every time for several hours 20:54:43 they're probably making a lot of code changes while trying to fend off the spambot attack 20:54:48 "We are experiencing issues with services and SASL. If you can't connect, try to temporarily disable SASL" 20:55:00 oren: that's from the topic in #freenode *shrugs* 20:56:01 -!- oren has changed nick to \oren\. 20:56:59 <\oren\> int-e: you can't connect from AWS to freenode without SASL tho 20:58:12 I see 21:01:30 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:17:27 -!- MDead has joined. 21:21:19 -!- MDude has joined. 21:22:27 -!- MDead has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 21:24:04 -!- puckipedia has changed nick to puck. 21:28:06 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:39:22 -!- MDude has joined. 21:47:26 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:53:31 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 21:53:55 hi ais523! 21:53:59 good to see you. let me read the log 21:54:48 guess what, arseniiv added me into the hackeso quotesdb. he's growing up to become a full #esoteric regular, and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be. 21:54:56 `datei 21:54:57 2018-08-22 21:54:56.893904170+00:00 21:55:49 oh good. in the afternoon, for some reason hackeso wouldn't reply to my private messages. I decided it was a feature, because I can't be trusted. but now he does answer private messages 21:57:07 "suppose I wanted to create my own alphabet, using invented characters that don't exist in standard fonts" => you should look at http://www.omniglot.com/ , and the "Constructed scripts" heading in particular. admittedly, that's a rather biased personal selection by the omniglot website maintainer, but still. 21:57:13 conlangers sometimes do that. 21:57:50 I have two completely undocumented alphabets I have created, and some attempts to map writing Hungarian or English into them. 21:58:20 "what would be the best way to write documents using this language? one idea I'm thinking of is to create a font but I don't know how that's done nowadays" => paper and pencil at first. the font part is difficult indeed. 22:01:06 "it's more of a syllabary than an alphabet" => oh yes, there are a few of those too. like the set of 306 syllable symbols in https://bendwavy.org/wp/?p=1986 , with no writing system for any language mapping to it yet. 22:03:09 the constructed alphabets are created are more intended to be used as traditional alphabets, not sylabillaries, although one of them also has an extended version that could be used for some APL-like notation with over 256 possible symbols combined from a somewhat simple traditional system of backspacing and overprinting one of the few modifiers ont 22:03:09 o a symbol. 22:05:10 Basically I have a set of 30 base letters, with a canon assignment of 26 of them to the 26 ascii letters for when you want a strict transliteration, but you don't have to do that, you can use other writing systems more suitable for specific languages, 22:05:13 -!- fizzie has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 22:05:33 -!- Toppogiggio has quit (Quit: Leaving). 22:06:36 then 6 additional modifiers (diacritics: dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, long horizontal bar in the middle, vertical bar) that you each can overprint to each base letter, although to make it look nice you have to shift them a bit depending on which letter you put them onto; 22:08:11 then I also have 16 digits, with a canonical assignment to the hexadecimal digits, but which you can also combine with one of the five allowed modifiers (dot over, short horizontal bar under, dot under, short horizontal bar over, vertical bar; but NOT horizontal bar) to get extra symbols for maths or programming or even writing; 22:08:47 -!- fizzie has joined. 22:09:52 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 22:09:56 plus also space (which is just the ascii "halfwidth" space used in latin script); plus 16 punctuation symbols, each of which you can combine with one of the six modifiers, but some combinations are banned because they'd either look ambiguous or very ugly; and possibly a few extra symbols that I've been experimenting with to perturb the system but t 22:09:56 hat probably shouldn't exist. 22:11:30 The 16 punctuation symbols are: period, comma, left round parenthesis, right round parenthesis, less than, greater than, vee, wedge, minus, vertical bar, slash, backslash, equals, plus, cross, eight-pointed star (a plus and a cross overlaid with their centers exactly at the same place). 22:12:20 vertical bar with the vertical bar modifier is one of the banned combinations, dot with the dot above modifier is an allowed combination and is basically a colon, comma with dot above is basically a semicolon, 22:12:58 one of dot with middle bar modifier and minus with dot under must be a banned combination, but I haven't completely fixed the list of banned combinations, although I do have some draft versions of it. 22:15:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 22:16:41 This is one of the two scripts I'm trying to invent. The other is much simpler, with only 32 symbols of which 16 are base letters and 16 have variable use, plus some modifiers that are used only as shorthand, plus a writing system for Hungarian. 22:16:59 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:17:05 The big one actually stole the set of digits from the 16 base letters of the other. 22:17:51 I haven't fixed a canonical alphabetic order for any of them yet, except obviously for the 16 digits in the bigger script. 22:22:21 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 22:22:50 -!- sleepnap has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:22:59 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:43:53 wob_jonas: and hopefully one who can be more trusted with hackeso than I can be => nope, it’s too complex :o 22:44:32 arseniiv: that's not why I can't be trusted 22:47:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:50:44 -!- Shragazord has joined. 22:52:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 22:53:40 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 23:05:45 -!- sftp has joined. 23:10:33 wob_jonas: hm 23:11:17 well anyway I’m not going to dive in its self-editing capabilities 23:11:54 or hopefully there’s a backup somewhere 23:13:26 It's on top of a (D)VCS, it's easy to revert to a previous state. 23:13:42 (Except for the /hackenv/tmp directory.) 23:14:26 https://hack.esolangs.org/repo/ 23:14:42 yeah, generally. there are some practical difficulties, but they rarely come up. 23:15:38 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:16:15 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 23:32:05 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 23:33:40 ais523: here's a quickly scribbled explanation of the conscripts I'm trying to create: https://i.stack.imgur.com/Tv6YC.png 23:34:45 -!- sleffy has joined. 23:34:45 -!- sleffy has quit (Client Quit). 23:35:02 hmm 23:35:14 I guess what I'm doing is basically what APL did 23:35:52 ais523: um, have you read my previous messages on the channel by the way? 23:35:59 I mean, during while you were apparently joined 23:36:09 wob_jonas: yes, just didn't have much to say 23:36:23 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:36:25 ok 23:36:30 I guess you created the alphabet first and then tried to find a use for it 23:36:31 ? 23:37:36 ais523: I think I created the 5-segment display and digits first, then extended it to hex digits, and drew it in the parenthesis style I used in the bottom, then created the Hungarian writing system for it; 23:38:29 then later I tried to create some other conscript that failed, and then I tried to create the alphabet that would eventually become the base alphabet on the top, only it was larger and more complicated, 23:39:26 and then I added the digits and the punctuation, but because of the parens in the punctutation, I decided to change the shape of the 1 and C digits to C-shaped, and some time in the meanwhile I experimented with systems of diacritics and eventually came up with this one, 23:39:53 and decided that since it's more than 256 symbols, and has lots of modified letters and modified punctuation, it's usable enough for an APL 23:40:47 well, for an APL you really want the symbols to match what the command does more or less exactly 23:41:04 that's why you need to create new ones if you're adding new commands 23:41:11 J uses two common diacritics on both lower and uppercase ascii letters and ascii punctuation and ascii digits, but since I don't have uppercase digits and have half the number of punctuation, but have it balanced by more diacritics, the symbol set looks APL-like enough for me 23:41:34 Should macros be syntactically distinct from regular function calls? 23:41:49 What's a good way to make the distinction? Rust uses ! but that seems too noisy to me. 23:41:55 sort of... but after a while the symbol set for APL more or less froze, and 23:41:59 shachaf: IMO it depends on whether the macro can do things a regular function call can't 23:42:13 Well, that's why it's a macro, right? 23:42:28 C uses allcaps for macros (as a convention), which brings the point across quite well… /except/ that it uses lowercase, as with regular functions, if the macro isn't doing anything weird that you need to pay attention to 23:42:41 shachaf: "." instead "!" ? 23:42:45 Allcaps also seems too noisy to me. 23:42:51 a macro should look like a control flow construct, really 23:42:52 Imagine IF, WHILE, etc. as macros. 23:43:22 if you have a Perl-like syntax, something like barewords (no sigil) for macros, leading & for functions, would be consistent with the rest of the language 23:43:31 but Perl dropped that, despite the inconsistency, probably because it was too noisy 23:43:55 perhaps the rule should be something like "macros use parens around their arguments, functions don't" 23:44:04 Another question: Is there a language that distinguishes lvalues from rvalues explicitly rather than automatically allowing lvalues in rvalue context? 23:44:11 Would that be too noisy? 23:44:33 ais523: Hm, maybe. 23:44:33 shachaf: most mathematical formalisations of language do, and the syntax has leaked into some of them, such as OCaml 23:44:40 usual syntax is ! for lvalue-to-rvalue conversion 23:44:49 Right, SML or OCaml or something has refs which are similar. 23:44:54 so to increment x in OCaml, you write «x := !x + 1» 23:45:02 But I'm imagining a C-like language where I think it would be noisier in general? 23:45:12 only because you mutate more in general 23:45:27 Right. 23:45:34 well... ruby has a strange idea of lvalues. it mostly doesn't have them, instead it has indexed-assignment and method-assignment as ordinary methods with funny names, and like ten special case syntaxes that assign to different variables 23:45:40 Algol's weird in that it has a very fixed distinction between lvalues and rvalues but conversions like lvalue-to-rvalue and pointer dereferencing are implicit, guided by the type system 23:45:47 Maybe C's * operator is already similar to this. 23:46:03 compared to perl, which has real lvalues. 23:46:12 or C++, which also has real lvalues 23:46:13 C's & operator is an abberation caused by the fact that * is normally implicit 23:46:21 except on the LHS of an assignment 23:46:27 so you need an & to turn it off 23:46:31 I'm undecided about references in C++. 23:46:37 "int &x = y;" doesn't seem that great. 23:46:52 But "int &operator[](...)" seems OK? 23:47:15 Maybe I'm OK with functions returning references but not taking them as arguments. 23:47:54 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:47:57 shachaf: in Algol, /all/ "variable names" are constants; thus "int ref x = y" would create a constant integer reference x pointing to the same thing as the constant integer reference y 23:48:05 sorry, it's too late and I have to sleep, but we can discuss that some time later. I like C++, including the references part, but it's complicated to explain why. 23:48:32 but I also don't think that every language necessarily needs lvalues. 23:48:39 you can have a fine language without lvalues. 23:48:59 whereas "int x := y" is shorthand for "int ref x = «whatever the syntax for allocating memory is in Algol; I've forgotten»; x := y", which creates a constant integer reference x pointing to new memory, then copies the value pointed to by y into it 23:49:24 Is that stack-allocated memory or something similar? 23:49:57 ais523: that sounds scary 23:50:30 shachaf: I think there's different syntax for stack and heap allocation 23:50:50 oh, it's "loc int" for allocating int-sized memory on the stack, I just remembered the syntax 23:53:09 anyway, the shorthand is very convenient (and probably inspired C's declaration syntax), but unlike the rest of the language, really hides what's going on 23:54:04 ais523: you mean auto declarations in C? 23:54:15 yes 23:54:17 The kinds of macros I'm talking about take not just their "arguments" but also the rest of the block. 23:54:38 shachaf: like the ? we were discussing earlier? 23:54:44 as opposed to global variable declarations or definitions 23:54:47 Which ? is that? 23:54:52 Oh, your monadish thing. 23:54:54 right 23:55:06 I think what I have in mind is a bit more syntactic but I'm actually not sure. 23:55:19 I'd like to make it less macro-y but I don't know how doable that is. 23:55:37 You remember, this is for the language idea where all the control flow constructs work like this. 23:55:43 { if(p); ... } and so on. 23:55:45 right 23:56:01 there definitely seems to be a connection between control flow constructs and macros 23:56:12 I'd like these to be as expression-like as possible, though. 23:56:26 Maybe something like { x := for(for(a)); ... } can make sense for a nested loop. 23:56:42 (Which would mean { y := for(a); x := for(y); ... } 23:56:57 In this sense what they really take as an argument is more like a continuation. 23:57:21 maybe what we want is syntax for making a continuation out of the rest of the block 23:57:39 { x := f(for(a), for(b)); ... }? 23:57:48 which probably implies a parens-not-required syntax for function calls 23:57:56 This would impose an evaluation order probably. Which monads etc. need to do anyway. 23:58:03 and "rest of the block" would be defined in terms of evaluation orders, so your for(a), for(b) would work just fine 23:58:15 you do need an explicit evaluation order, as your last example shows 23:58:26 (which could be "unspecified" but probably shouldn't be) 23:58:29 Right. 23:58:37 This is all very SSA-y. 23:58:42 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:59:27 aren't continuations just the control flow version of SSA? 23:59:34 They're very similar at least. 23:59:49 well yes, my last statement is probably an overstatement but there seems to be something of a connection 23:59:59 Yes, there's clearly a connection. 2018-08-23: 00:00:25 { x:= f(for(a)?, for(b)?); … } unifies your syntax and mine 00:00:29 By the way, is there a reason many languages support multiple arguments rather than just supporting tuple arguments? 00:00:40 ais523: What is for() in this context? 00:00:59 shachaf: it returns a List monad action 00:01:14 then ? will convert that into a map operation over the rest of the block on the returned list 00:01:29 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 00:01:34 Hmm, can you guarantee that that compiles to efficient code? 00:01:48 I don't want heap allocations or laziness or anything like that. 00:01:53 Just a loop. 00:02:15 well, a List monad action doesn't need to be an actual list 00:02:31 Sure. I guess I don't know how your monads are represented. 00:02:36 as the only things you can /do/ with it are flatten and map, both of which can be implemented in compressed form 00:02:53 in general, a monad action is basically just a tuple 00:02:58 where flatten and map are functions 00:03:15 although it probably has extra metadata so that it knows how to flatten other instances of itself 00:03:38 I guess this is easier with rust definitions, it's something which has a trait that allows it to be flattened and mapped 00:04:09 What about { while(p); ... }? 00:04:10 flatten for iterators is basically just "do the first iterator, then the second, then the third…" 00:04:14 map for iterators is obvious 00:04:16 Here p needs to be re-evaluated on each iteration. 00:04:31 that doesn't work where p is eager, so it would need to be lazy 00:04:45 Well, it works if you can do a goto to the beginning. 00:05:24 { while(p); ... } --> { @loop; if(p); { ... }; repeat @loop; } 00:05:42 laziness is a monad too, so I guess you could just say "while takes an action as argument", but { while(lazy {p}) } is pretty ugly syntax 00:05:48 Where @ is a syntax for naming a block, or a label. And repeat is just a restricted goto. 00:06:04 if goto only goes backwards then it's more like a break 00:06:17 break goes forward 00:06:30 but if we're using an evaluation order model, p gets evaluated before while, so while can't place a label before the evaulation of p 00:06:43 unless we use a different evaluation order in which the function is evaluated before its arguments, I guess 00:06:56 but then it'd look like while()(p) unless we were using unusual syntax 00:07:01 Well, I think this was just one of the things I was allowing these constructs to do? 00:07:26 They get a label pointing to the block they're at the beginning of. 00:07:41 actually, thinking about it, break can't be implemented like this because we can't escape from blocks other than the nested block we're in 00:07:52 so your idea is a bit more general, mostly because it has continuations 00:08:02 So the other thing I have is break from any block. 00:08:24 break-with-value from any block, even. Which is such a useful feature I'm surprised no language has it. 00:08:52 This kind of early exit means that you can't really use lambdas. 00:09:40 return is also just a special case of this. 00:10:36 I mentioned the other day that I figured out what break and continue are. 00:10:39 break-with-value from any block is basically what you get when each block does an implicit call/cc (as you can use the continuation to send the value back) 00:10:52 also, "no language has it" is wrong, you can do it just fine in INTERCAL 00:10:55 Well, it's not arbitrary continuations. 00:11:14 although this is because return values in INTERCAL are just global variables, so you can write to them, and then do a RESUME #10 or whatever 00:11:19 There's effectively a static stack of blocks at any point. 00:11:28 stack-allocated continuations 00:11:33 And you can break from any of them, up to the outermost block (which is going to be a function call frame). 00:12:15 If you have "cleanup" like RAII destructors or defer, early exit can know to run them, as well. 00:12:16 why don't you break out of that into the black lagoon? 00:12:37 I think I'm missing a reference. 00:12:56 http://catb.org/esr/intercal/ick.htm#E123 00:13:05 oh, that's the wrong direction, stack overflow not underflow 00:13:16 this one's underflow: http://catb.org/esr/intercal/ick.htm#E632 00:13:18 Ah. 00:14:38 Anyway, when you have a loop, { @outer; loop; @inner; ... }, "break" means "end @outer" and "continue" means "end @inner" 00:14:58 I guess "continuations on the stack" is a good model for this 00:15:12 come to think of it, that's how function calls work too 00:15:34 I was about to say "is it possible to construct a model in which loops and function calls are the same thing" and then realised it was just tail-recursion 00:15:35 Python's "for x in xs: A else: B" means: { @outer { x := for(xs); @inner; A; } B; } 00:15:57 wouldn't that run B regardless? 00:16:06 Not if you "end @outer" 00:16:11 ah no, if you break out of outer 00:16:31 "else" is a bizarre keyword for that, though; "if you don't break" is not what I think of as "else" 00:16:38 Right, it seems backwards to me. 00:17:24 oddly, it would fit the meaning of the English word "finally" quite well, but the "finally" control flow operation is /also/ different from that! 00:17:49 perhaps "then" would work best, but it likely isn't a keyword in Python 00:19:13 ooh, completely unrelated question related to an esointerpreter I'm writing: is it possible/sane to use a single SQL-relational-database index for both "return all X with a specific Y" and "return all X with a specific Y and specific Z", where Z is a boolean? 00:19:14 I think the implication is that you break in the successful case. 00:19:37 E.g. "for x in xs: if x == y: break else: ..." 00:19:45 (Where the else is associated with the for, not the if.) 00:19:53 my understanding of how SQL indexes work is that an index (X, Z, Y) would work only if, in the first case, we used a range query on the boolean specifying that it must be between false and true 00:19:57 inclusive 00:20:10 but that seems ridiculous, so I suspect there's a flaw in my understanding somehow 00:21:02 err, I mean (Y, Z, X), and now I think about it, an SQL engine will get that right for both queries 00:21:15 because I got the question wrong 00:21:34 never mind, I'm too tired to phrase the question correctly right now 00:24:44 -!- Waggie21 has joined. 00:24:46 -!- Waggie21 has quit (K-Lined). 00:26:45 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 00:29:54 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 00:31:11 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:36:36 anyway, I found the answer for SQLite in the SQLite docs, there's something called "skip-scan" that can do this sort of conversion automatically, but it only does so if it knows that the column contains lots of booleans 00:36:41 err, lots of duplicates 00:37:09 which it really should for a boolean coulmn, but SQLite's handling of types is utterly insane, so it can't do that automatically without an ANALYZE run to prove it 00:39:28 so I guess my conclusion for the question I meant to ask, even though I haven't figured out what it is yet, is "doing the optimization manually makes sense because it informs the engine that our booleans will only be false or true" 00:48:24 -!- LKoen has joined. 00:53:13 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 00:54:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:56:04 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:00:15 -!- bradcomp has joined. 01:01:39 Currently in a C64 compatible MMO 01:02:01 (Well, the only existent client is for C64, so I guess more than just compatible) 01:02:50 can a game count as "massively multiplayer" if it only runs on a platform that a non-massive number of people own? 01:04:35 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:10:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:11:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:11:44 if (p) 01:11:50 { stmt; 01:11:52 stmt; 01:11:52 } 01:11:59 this is a p. good indentation style. 01:17:09 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:21:47 It does run in C64 emulators. I wonder if that makes my statement "Well, the only existent client is for C64" technically inaccurate 01:22:02 If you consider emulator+C64 client to itself be a client 01:22:50 shachaf: I'd expect that style to have the } at the end of the previous line 01:23:14 hmm, now I'm reminded of an indentation style I used for Lua once 01:23:27 it used four-space indentation, but multiple consecutive "end"s were placed on the same line 01:23:40 this helped readability when you have 8-10 nested for loops 01:27:21 Well, the inspiration for this is the style 01:27:23 { if(p); 01:27:26 ... 01:27:26 } 01:27:51 Which is meant to be similar to the same thing but with "if(p) {" on the first line. 01:28:10 But I kind of like having the first statement of a block on the same line as the { 01:29:02 This depends on two-space indentation to be very natural, though. 01:29:12 I guess you'd at least want to stack } because that style would naturally stack nested { 01:29:18 { { stmt; 01:29:20 stmt; 01:29:21 } } 01:29:33 not that there's much purpose to nesting bare blocks in most languages, but… 01:30:12 (it can be occasionally useful in Perl; do{{}} is not equivalent to do{} because the latter doesn't generate break/continue points and the former does) 01:30:29 So it's generally true in languages with blocks that { a; b; c; } means the same thing as { a; { b; { c; } } }, right? 01:30:43 Not in Perl apparently! 01:30:51 in most but not quite all, I think the latter is different in Perl 6 even without break/continue 01:34:07 -!- pskosinski1 has joined. 01:37:50 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:37:58 -!- callforjudgement has joined. 01:38:05 shachaf: in Perl 6, { my $c = $^a; $^b + $c } takes two arguments, whereas { my $c = $^a; {$^b + $c} } takes one argument and appears to cause a type error if you call it 01:38:07 I'd /expected/ it to be a curried version of the first block 01:38:12 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523. 01:38:20 that said, I'm cheating by using implicit argument syntax here 01:38:35 -!- pskosinski1 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:40:02 Does Perl 6 have a notion of block arguments? 01:40:09 Or block values? 01:41:40 yes 01:41:49 `! perl6 "test".say 01:41:50 ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/perl6: not found 01:41:55 bleh, was hoping I could use HackEso for this 01:41:59 `` perl6 --version 01:42:00 ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 5: perl6: command not found 01:42:52 although I think blocks have to be run explicitly to get at their values; if you try to use them in expression context they turn lazy 01:43:17 $ perl6 -e '-> $a {$a+1}.(3).say' 01:43:19 4 01:43:25 actually, the more I use Perl 6 the less I like it 01:45:39 -!- bradcomp has joined. 01:50:09 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:22:04 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 02:22:51 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Changing host). 02:22:51 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 02:29:38 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (*.net *.split). 02:29:40 -!- fungot has quit (*.net *.split). 02:29:41 -!- shikhin has quit (*.net *.split). 02:29:42 -!- paul2520 has quit (*.net *.split). 02:29:43 -!- Deewiant has quit (*.net *.split). 02:32:55 -!- fungot has joined. 02:33:57 -!- fractal has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 02:36:22 -!- Deewiant has joined. 02:36:41 -!- paul2520 has joined. 02:36:41 -!- paul2520 has quit (Changing host). 02:36:41 -!- paul2520 has joined. 02:40:54 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 02:45:48 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 02:49:02 -!- LKoen has joined. 02:53:59 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 02:59:30 -!- fractal has joined. 03:04:22 -!- bradcomp has joined. 03:09:08 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 03:13:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 03:16:28 -!- johnlage17 has joined. 03:25:27 -!- johnlage17 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:02:57 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:41:27 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:49:57 -!- LKoen has joined. 04:54:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 05:39:22 -!- j-bot has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:39:38 -!- j-bot has joined. 05:47:49 -!- imode has joined. 06:20:13 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:36:57 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 06:50:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 06:55:44 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 07:27:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 07:30:15 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:50:59 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 08:12:14 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:18:36 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:27:00 -!- simon_-_17 has joined. 08:34:54 -!- simon_-_17 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:44:17 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:44:23 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Read error: No route to host). 08:44:54 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:47:22 shachaf: about that {if(x);stmt} thing, I know it's not very relevant, but I had pointed you to https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo right? it has some similar syntax for conditionals and loops. 08:47:30 but no macros or anything 08:47:35 ideally it should have ordinary functions 08:50:54 It looks pretty different? 08:50:58 I don't remember seeing it before. 08:51:08 and perhaps it should be extended to support labelled loops and labelled breaks 08:51:23 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:53:34 shachaf: it has a syntax that allows you to have statements that conditionally break out of the innermost block, returning a value from that block, since every block can be used as an expression and can have value the value. the condition and return value themselves can be blocks if you want. 08:53:44 and blocks can be normal or infinitely looping. 08:53:54 You should invent + implement my language for me. 08:54:08 Since I thought of it I constantly see places where I wish I had these constructs. 08:54:11 so if(x); would translate to x!; in geo 08:54:41 Hmm, your blocks are explicit, it looks like? 08:54:56 So (a; b; c) is different from (a; (b; c)) 08:54:58 {if(x);stmt1;stmt2;} is written like (x!;stmt1;stmt2;) in geo 08:55:19 How is {stmt1; if(x); stmt2;} written? 08:55:25 {while(x);stmt1;stmt2;} is written like (x!;stmt1;stmt2;*) 08:55:41 {stmt1;if(x);stmt2;} is written as (stmt1;x!;stmt2;) 08:55:47 the ! is just a negated ? by the way 08:56:11 so {if(!x);stmt1;} translates to (x?;stmt1;) 08:56:22 provided that ! negates a boolean in your language 08:56:26 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds). 08:56:53 and C's do{stmt1;stmt2;}while(x) translates to (stmt1;stmt1;x!;*) in geo 08:58:56 there would be a straightforward translation from geo to rust control structures: (stmt1;stmt2;expr) translates to {stmt1;stmt2;expr} , (stmt1;stmt2;*) trnaslates to loop{stmt1;stmt2;} , cond?expr translates to if !cond {break expr} , and cond!expr translates to if cond {break expr} 08:59:26 wob_jonas: Wait, is it? 08:59:30 only geo is dynamically typed and rust is strongly typed, so the builtin array manipulation and arithmetic in geo might be a bit tricky to translate 08:59:39 um no, sorry 08:59:51 To be clear, in my language, {stmt1;if(x);stmt2;} means { stmt1; if(x) { stmt2; } } in C 09:00:02 (stmt1;stmt2;expr) would have to be translated to loop{stmt1;stmt2;break expr} in rust 09:00:25 I was wrong above about its rust translation 09:00:27 shachaf: If you allow any control flow (goto, or setjmp/longjmp) to get back to an earlier statement, { a; b; c; } isn't strictly equivalent to { a; { b; { c; } } } in C either, because the lifetimes of objects with automatic storage duration (and non-VLA type) start from the entry into the associated block, not from the declaration. 09:00:54 shachaf: yes. C's { stmt1; if(x) { stmt2; } } translates to geo's (stmt1; x!; stmt2;) 09:01:12 I also didn't mention that you can declare variables that are local to a block, just like in C 09:01:18 just like in C99 in fact 09:03:18 and also C's {if(x) stmt1; else { stmt2; stmt3; }} translates to (x?stmt1;stmt2;stmt3;); #note semicolon 09:04:00 and C's { if(x) { stmt1; stmt2; } else { stmt3; stmt4; } } translates to geo's (x?(stmt1;stmt2;);stmt3;stmt4;) 09:04:12 fizzie: Is that also true in C++? 09:04:14 and then stmt1 and stmt3 could be a local variable declaration and the translation still works 09:05:23 wob_jonas: OK, inferred too much from "(stmt0; ...; stmtN; cond!; *)" 09:05:29 I 09:05:38 shachaf: it would be possible to extend geo with rust-like label blocks and labeled breaks, and with functions that have an argument list and return value, but I have never tried to implement that, and frankly back then I didn't even think of labeled blocks much. 09:06:29 shachaf: the https://esolangs.org/wiki/Geo page gives a rather concise but probably precise description. it doesn't give all details of the arithmetic operators' behavior, but that part is easy to modify in the source code anyway. 09:10:26 it also doesn't tell that [] returns a new array allocated on the heap, whose size you can later expand on the right with indexing, and [expr0,expr1,expr2] returns a newly allocated array pre-filled with three elements 09:10:38 I should mention something about this 09:11:40 I'll add a bit 09:12:29 wob_jonas: Hmm, conditional exit was the main primitive I was thinking of defining things in terms of. 09:12:59 I'm not sure what primitives are best. 09:13:15 Conditional exit and repeat? 09:14:05 shachaf: geo is turing-complete, but not very convenient, because it doesn't have user-defined functions. 09:14:41 I didn't figure out a great way to handle if-else, either. 09:15:48 I mean if (p) { ... } else { ... } 09:16:19 Though I figured out some variants of switch-case etc. that were pretty neat. 09:17:14 So for C's (p ? x : y), you use something like { endif(p, x); end y; } 09:17:22 Of course it's nicer with your syntax. 09:17:53 shachaf: I don't know, but probably not. Non-trivial initialization and all that. In C11 it's 6.2.4p6. 09:18:52 fizzie: Should it work that way or is it just that it does work that way? 09:28:49 I'm extending the geo page on the wiki now, but the control structures are already explained. 09:37:51 wob_jonas: Do you have a good answer for if-else? 09:38:06 The nice thing about C if-else is that you only have one level of {} 09:42:21 shachaf: what's wrong with what I said above? 09:42:36 C's {if(x) stmt1; else { stmt2; stmt3; }} translates to geo (x?stmt1;stmt2;stmt3;); #note semicolon 09:42:43 and C's { if(x) { stmt1; stmt2; } else { stmt3; stmt4; } } translates to geo's (x?(stmt1;stmt2;);stmt3;stmt4;) 09:42:54 and then in the latter, stmt1 and stmt3 could be a local variable declaration and the translation still works 09:44:04 The trouble is double nesting. 09:44:16 Worse, the if and else aren't even at the same level of nesting. 09:44:24 what double nesting? can you give an example? 09:44:27 I mean stmt1 and stmt3 09:44:37 There are two levels of parentheses there. 09:44:49 if you want symmetry, you can write (x?(stmt1;stmt2;);(stmt3;stmt4;)) 09:44:52 that's still fine 09:45:01 Yes, but you still have two layers of parentheses. 09:45:22 In C, you can write "if (p) { ... }" and it's fine. 09:45:31 yes. but only if you have more than one statement for the then-branch. you need braces in C for that case. 09:45:36 And later if you want to do something in the other case, you can extend it to "if (p) { ... } else { ... }" 09:45:49 you can write elseif cascades easily: 09:45:56 Yes, I know. 09:47:13 So I have something like { cond; { when(p); ... }; { when(q); ... } } 09:47:27 Where "when(p)" implicitly breaks out of the surrounding "cond". 09:48:09 One nice thing is that you can write { cond; { when(p); ... }; { c := for(cs); when(x == c); ... } } 09:49:49 -!- ep100 has joined. 09:57:41 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:08:36 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:13:49 -!- sins- has joined. 10:17:01 -!- sins- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:20:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 10:20:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:20:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has quit (Changing host). 10:20:04 -!- Lord_of_Life has joined. 10:33:00 -!- Shragazord has joined. 10:40:48 I in fact now have no clue how arrays and localization work in geo, and I've read some of the code 10:44:18 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 10:45:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:46:06 -!- Debiller777 has joined. 10:52:18 -!- LKoen has joined. 10:56:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 10:59:53 shachaf: If you're asking for a personal opinion, it's a little odd that there's a difference between VLAs and non-VLAs, and I can't think of any particularly reasonable use cases for using an automatic storage duration object before the declaration, so I wouldn't mind if the lifetime started from the declaration for all types. 11:01:37 `wc quotes 11:01:38 ​ 1327 26733 160077 quotes 11:02:01 . o O ( just 10 more till int-e gets annoyed ) 11:02:34 if i remember the right person 11:02:42 Surely he'll be delighted after 10, and annoyed after 11? 11:03:32 hm i interpreted him that 10 was bad too 11:03:44 Well, maybe. 11:04:18 There's still time for someone to update `addquote to drop the least important quote when it would exceed whatever the comfortable number was. (Determining the least important quote left as an exercise.) 11:04:46 `quote 11:04:47 961) I think pastaquote should just quote me 11:05:07 we do have the 5 quote tradition, it just doesn't get used much, as there aren't that many bad quotes left 11:05:17 HaskEso had given me the same quote two times in a row 11:05:39 arseniiv: did you use a parameter with `quote ? 11:05:50 then it's actually deterministic and lists all hits 11:06:32 i think there's `randquote for when you want to get around that 11:06:36 `randquote beer 11:06:37 356) as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over 11:06:46 oerjan: of course no 11:06:51 `randquote beer 11:06:52 1253) izabera: It's sort of like the principal, as far as I know. Except It only prints " BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL!" Counting down from 99 to 0. With no line breaks. 11:07:42 fizzie: personally i want to get to 1400 to ease my triskaidekaphobia 11:09:42 `quote sweden 11:09:43 356) as always in sweden everything goes to a fixed pattern: thursday is queueing at systembolaget to get beer and schnaps, friday is pickled herring, schnaps and dancing the frog dance around the phallos, saturday is dedicated to being hung over \ 650) (I vehemently oppose the SNP because they want closer ties with Sweden.) \ 662) oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? < 11:10:06 `quote 662 11:10:09 662) oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? fizzie: +47 oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. I... guess you are geographically, too. 11:10:19 `randquote sweden 11:10:20 662) oerjan: Hey, what's your country code for telephonistic dialling from the outside world? fizzie: +47 oerjan: Ooh, you're, like, right next to Sweden there. I... guess you are geographically, too. 11:10:31 `randquote olsner 11:10:31 894) Gregor: are you in the brony documentary? 11:10:57 `randquote FireFly 11:10:58 831) FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion 11:11:46 -!- Cale_ has joined. 11:12:48 hm wob_jonas complained that HackEso wasn't answering his private messages, then later said it does, and indeed it now does, but still isn't registered? 11:14:44 and i'm still +R. must be some automatic excepting after i message it, or something. 11:16:15 perhaps wob_jonas changed client from one which doesn't have that feature... 11:28:27 oh maybe fizzie took off the +R for HackEso 11:29:29 I haven't done anything special. 11:30:02 But it's working for me, which is odd. 11:30:18 oh or maybe wob_jonas wasn't registered himself 11:30:53 fizzie: perhaps freenode have done something to reduce the effect of +R 11:31:25 Yeah, maybe they implicitly allow replies now or something. 11:32:09 HackEso itself probably still has +R on, so it wouldn't get the initial message from a non-registered sender. 11:32:24 yeah 11:35:40 Yep, that's it: https://github.com/freenode/ircd-seven/pull/135 11:36:12 ah indeed, i just found that HackEso is on my /accept list 11:36:57 Mine as well. Fancy. 11:43:07 @tell wob_jonas oerjan: hackeso doesn't reply to my private messages. is this deliberate? <-- Freenode has default set all users +R because of the spammers, but also https://github.com/freenode/ircd-seven/pull/135 so it's transparent when a registered user messages a non-registered one (e.g. HackEso) first. 11:43:07 Consider it noted. 11:44:32 @tell wob_jonas HackEso itself hasn't changed. 11:44:32 Consider it noted. 11:46:45 hm the underlying github issue isn't public 11:46:48 oh well 11:47:49 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:48:33 . o O ( wob_jonas _really_ doesn 11:48:47 't want to learn HackEso's convenience commands... ) 11:49:04 also, apostrophes are evilly placed on this keyboard. 11:51:02 `doat bin/quotes 11:51:04 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import. \ 10027:2016-12-25 ` cp bin/quote{,s} # add rng improv 11:51:47 @tell wob_jonas also, please learn to use the `doag etc. commands for HackEso log search, they are designed not to ping users. 11:51:47 Consider it noted. 11:52:19 @tell wob_jonas well, the committers, anyway. 11:52:19 Consider it noted. 11:52:55 `? `doag 11:52:56 ​`doag? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 11:53:16 that's not very helpful i guess. 11:53:25 `? `hoag 11:53:26 ​`[hd]o[aw][gt] [] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds revision numbers and dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first. 11:54:04 `learn `doag: See `hoag 11:54:09 Learned '`doag': `doag: See `hoag 11:54:40 `learn `doat: See `hoag 11:54:42 Learned '`doat': `doat: See `hoag 11:54:59 `learn `dowt: See `hoag 11:55:01 Learned '`dowt': `dowt: See `hoag 11:55:20 `learn `dowg: See `hoag 11:55:22 Learned '`dowg': `dowg: See `hoag 11:55:55 does anyone use the h versions any longer 12:00:08 `` for i in hoat howg howt; do learn "$i"': See `hoag'; done 12:00:14 Learned 'hoat': hoat: See `hoag \ Learned 'howg': howg: See `hoag \ Learned 'howt': howt: See `hoag 12:00:21 oops 12:00:24 `revert 12:00:25 Done. 12:00:39 `` for i in hoat howg howt; do learn \`"$i"': See `hoag'; done 12:00:42 Learned '`hoat': `hoat: See `hoag \ Learned '`howg': `howg: See `hoag \ Learned '`howt': `howt: See `hoag 12:01:29 `? `hlnp 12:01:30 ​`hlnp? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:01:39 `cat bin/hlnp 12:01:40 scowrevs="$(/usr/bin/paste -sd'|' /hackenv/share/scowrevs)"; hg log -r "tip:0 & ! ($scowrevs)" "$@" | sed 's/\(\(^\| \)[ `doag bin/quotes 12:05:12 10027:2016-12-25 ` cp bin/quote{,s} # add rng improv \ 0:2012-02-16 Initïal import. 12:05:39 wait what 12:05:44 oh 12:05:51 `doag quotes 12:05:52 11610:2018-08-22 addquote that real-world complexity doesn\'t fit my simple model of English must be that darned Higgs-boson or some other symmetry-breaking mechanism \ 11589:2018-08-08 addquote and at least don\'t put Hofstadter next to the time cube guy without at least a semicolon, that\'s insulting Hofstadter \ 11585:2018-07-21 addquote i\'m sending this from within a com 12:06:05 hm indeed only the committers 12:27:01 -!- Debiller777 has quit (Quit: Page closed). 12:28:12 -!- Cale_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:44:07 `? 12:44:08 ​? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:44:35 `wisdom 12:44:36 ​disflagrate//disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized. 12:44:56 `wisdom 12:44:57 ​alg. ii//Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such. 12:45:08 mmm 12:52:55 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:53:25 `? alg. i 12:53:26 alg. i? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 12:57:35 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 12:57:43 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Andrew3335 * New user account 13:00:48 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57421&oldid=57397 * Andrew3335 * (+230) 13:02:34 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:03:20 -!- andrew3334 has joined. 13:04:42 -!- andrew3334 has quit (Client Quit). 13:06:19 [[User:Andrew3335]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57422 * Andrew3335 * (+2) Created page with "I." 13:24:32 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:26:19 so do you think we (and I mean myself ;) need to describe that functional-combinatorian tarpit? 13:31:59 I think it should be named Ⅎ 13:37:06 [[User:Arseniiv]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57423&oldid=54934 * Arseniiv * (+127) ! 13:56:18 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 13:57:14 oerjan: I haven't registered the wob_jonas nick, but I'm logged in to my b_jonas account (as you can see if you whois or whox me) to be able to speak here 13:58:08 oerjan: sorry, you're right. I tried to use private messages to not ping users 13:59:36 but you're right, I shouldn't have pinged them 14:11:31 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 14:45:37 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 14:53:18 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 14:53:41 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:58:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:17:52 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:23:52 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:30:06 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 15:37:05 -!- clog_ has quit (Quit: ^C). 15:37:17 -!- clog has joined. 15:47:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 15:50:44 [[]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57424 * Arseniiv * (+2477) unctional! 15:51:40 _now_ I’m finally at rest 15:52:18 oh, my IRC client/font doesn’t display an article name 15:53:31 oh no it’s actually unlogged! 16:00:22 [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57425&oldid=57419 * Arseniiv * (+10) added 16:03:51 so it’s maybe a bug in esowiki bot, as you should be able to see Ⅎ when it’s written in this post, and in that one too 16:21:48 -!- sftp has joined. 16:23:34 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Cheesepizza2 * New user account 16:26:49 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57426&oldid=57421 * Cheesepizza2 * (+328) /* Introductions */ 16:27:23 [[GHOST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57427&oldid=45105 * Cheesepizza2 * (-85) /* WARNING */ 16:33:57 [[F-PULSE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57428&oldid=49971 * Cheesepizza2 * (+27) /* Operands */ 16:37:50 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:53:39 [[GHOST]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57429&oldid=57427 * Cheesepizza2 * (+9) 16:56:37 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 16:56:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:57:14 -!- imode has joined. 17:06:07 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:20:48 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:22:28 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:22:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:22:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:24:07 is there a page on wiki which lists useful templates? 17:32:18 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:01:56 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:10:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 18:11:37 -!- lynn_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 18:12:06 -!- lynn_ has joined. 18:18:38 -!- Cale has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 18:29:43 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 18:30:40 -!- Cale has joined. 18:38:15 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 18:38:33 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:27:13 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:58:53 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:02:13 -!- Fogity has joined. 20:36:14 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:39:27 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:47:18 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 20:48:57 -!- ep100 has joined. 20:59:20 someone interested in a numeric computation puzzle about optimizing generation of special random vectors? 21:31:11 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:32:00 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 21:37:11 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:44:09 -!- sprocklem has joined. 22:00:03 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 22:18:29 [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sharpjaws * New user account 22:18:38 -!- Remavas has joined. 22:31:49 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:32:47 -!- atslash has joined. 22:45:21 [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57430&oldid=57426 * Sharpjaws * (+202) 22:47:59 Sgeo: Have you considered that ALGOL 68 should be the new Sgeolang? 22:48:07 Ada might not be the ticket. 22:48:21 `? sgeolang 22:48:23 Sgeolang used to change frequently, but eventually it rusted in place. 22:52:00 -!- imode has joined. 23:00:04 -!- sleepnap has left. 23:04:35 -!- mt13 has joined. 23:05:24 -!- mt13 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:08:04 -!- Remavas has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:14:02 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:19:20 Xperia wallpapers took their toll on me: https://s22.postimg.cc/8g3zzxz8h/anim-24082018_T041317.gif 23:34:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:41:43 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 23:53:10 -!- boily has joined. 2018-08-24: 00:45:15 -!- clog has quit (Quit: ^C). 00:45:28 -!- clog has joined. 00:47:20 -!- hpt has joined. 00:50:24 -!- clog has quit (Quit: ^C). 00:50:36 -!- clog has joined. 00:51:00 -!- hpt has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:55:17 I think they should add a DATE and TIME command into DOSBOX to set the clock skew amount for the current DOS session. 00:55:36 -!- kiera8 has joined. 00:56:35 What do you think? 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Let's enjoy an example */ 06:37:25 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:40:54 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57432&oldid=57431 * A * (+104) 06:51:30 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57433&oldid=57307 * A * (+138) I have another attempt. 06:52:48 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57434&oldid=57432 * A * (+80) 06:54:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:08:14 -!- tromp_ has joined. 07:09:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 07:13:06 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:17:05 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:24:13 -!- ep100 has joined. 07:27:48 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 07:49:43 [[Ackermann function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57435&oldid=8525 * A * (+263) And another implementation that exactly obeys the explanation on Wikipedia 07:52:12 [[Ackermann function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57436&oldid=57435 * A * (-23) 07:55:42 [[Quine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57437&oldid=11533 * A * (+71) On Wikipedia 08:00:22 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:11:23 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:23:08 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:23:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:23:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:38:27 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:58:42 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 09:01:42 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 09:05:35 -!- atslash has joined. 09:09:11 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:27:27 * Taneb morning 09:59:18 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 10:13:37 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:24:35 -!- boily has joined. 10:44:19 -!- boily has quit (Quit: FORWARD CHICKEN). 10:44:23 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 10:44:43 -!- Fogity has joined. 10:58:34 -!- Vorpal has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net). 11:19:23 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:34:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:50:01 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 13:16:14 [[Printf]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57438 * A * (+503) Created page with "printf is a simple programming language. ==Syntax== It is really VERY simple. It is a version of C in which you can't use any of the keywords and there is only a function cal..." 13:16:24 [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57439&oldid=57438 * A * (+1) 13:17:06 [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57440&oldid=57439 * A * (+0) 13:17:37 [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57441&oldid=57440 * A * (+4) 13:25:05 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:33:30 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57442&oldid=57076 * Fogity * (+285) /* Example programs */ Added Ackermann function 13:55:28 -!- zzo38 has joined. 13:58:26 [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57443&oldid=57441 * Zzo38 * (-103) 14:00:42 -!- Guest27432 has joined. 14:02:35 -!- Guest27432 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:11:24 -!- cwre has joined. 14:16:04 -!- cwre has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:21:32 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57444&oldid=56687 * Arseniiv * (+396) /* Categorization */ new section 14:22:44 hope it wasn’t too sarcastic :D 14:46:48 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 14:53:34 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 14:55:42 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:04:49 -!- rubdos25 has joined. 15:06:54 -!- rubdos25 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:09:02 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 15:12:59 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 15:22:41 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:54:51 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:17:12 -!- laerling has joined. 16:27:30 -!- tromp has joined. 16:31:51 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:35:14 -!- tromp has joined. 16:37:10 -!- imode has joined. 16:44:54 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:48:15 -!- Fogity has joined. 16:55:23 -!- xkapastel has changed nick to parentbot. 16:55:45 -!- parentbot has changed nick to xkapastel. 16:56:49 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:59:20 -!- xkapastel has quit. 17:03:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:08:09 -!- bradcomp has joined. 17:23:50 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 17:24:34 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:24:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 17:24:35 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:29:39 -!- tromp has joined. 17:37:51 -!- laerling has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:40:28 -!- brandonson has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 17:43:30 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:50:30 -!- bradcomp has joined. 17:57:28 -!- laerling has joined. 17:58:45 It isn't just window functions in the next version of SQLite, but also a few bug fixes including one having to do with upsert. 18:00:27 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:01:28 has it been proven that Ⅎ requires parentheses to be Turing-complete? 18:04:14 oh, hmm, maybe it's a PDA without them? 18:07:02 yep, without parens a program always expands into a list of funtions that exist within the original program, evaluating consists of popping the first so many list entries and pushing the definition 18:07:06 which can only see a finite depth into the stack 18:07:42 and parens allow multiple functions to be grouped, Underload-style, so that list elements can become arbitrarily complex and thus break through the PDA barrier 18:16:27 This document https://sqlite.org/appfileformat.html mentions four kind of application file formats (fully custom, pile-of-files, wrapped-pile-of-files, SQLite), but also, a SQLite database can be used like wrapped-pile-of-files, and also you can have pile-of-wrapped-pile-of-files, and Microsoft Word format is a wrapped-pile-of-files too actually. 18:17:47 What kind os best depend on the use. 18:22:43 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:24:38 -!- brandonson has joined. 18:24:53 -!- LKoen has joined. 18:25:10 ais523: I think Ⅎ requires one level of parenthesis, but not more, to be TC, but I'm not quite sure. 18:26:34 I've been thinking somewhat of a different language with the same goal (the minimal essence of functional programming), which has a somewhat similar goal, but is clearly not the same language. 18:27:30 That language is more complicated to define, because it needs more primitives, but might be slightly easier to implement. 18:28:09 Especially easier to implement if you want non-conservative garbage collection for it. 18:29:40 wob_jonas: one is enough, yes 18:29:43 you can define s with that 18:29:45 and k doesn't need any 18:30:38 I don't have a finalized canon version of my language though, only vague ideas. 18:31:14 My goal was more a compromise towards being very easy to implement, rather than "the essence". 18:32:00 Also more compromise to being somewhat easy to use and somewhat efficient, although still not a production language. 18:32:38 More like a toy language to illustrate language design and implementing an interpreter and programs in it. 18:33:26 come to think of it, this implies that Ⅎ is TC with exactly one pair of parentheses in the whole program 18:34:10 I guess Consumer Society would replace its goals in parts, although that one is more esoteric in design and less easy to implement and less easy to use. 18:34:14 ais523: I finally got around to reading about ALGOL 68. 18:34:27 ais523: wow 18:34:28 Seems like a good language. 18:34:34 that's surprising, but sounds true 18:34:35 What have PL people done anything in the past 50 years? 18:34:57 Algol 68 has some really interesting ideas, but is possibly somewhat impractical 18:35:05 I think it was a failure at the time because nobody could figure out how to implement it 18:35:12 with reasonable efficiency 18:35:59 but yes, it still looks more advanced in a way than "mainstream" imperative languages, we've spent the last 50 years just catching back up to it 18:36:37 shachaf: C (which was a low level language better aligned to the computers of that era), modern C++ (more powerful and expressive than C), and rust (tries to redo stupid historical problems in C++ while having somewhat the same goals, it's a bit young yet and not fully mature, but otoh C++ is now overmature) 18:36:44 and the cutting-edge research has mostly been in different paradigms 18:37:04 wob_jonas: Algol 68 had all sorts of great features that C and C++ don't have. 18:37:24 shachaf: all three of these have similar paradigms and goals as algol and fortran I think, but are updated with what can be done on more modern machines 18:37:33 shachaf: can you be more specific? I don't know algol 68 18:37:37 It was admittedly garbage collected, which is pretty odd for 50 years ago (and maybe odd for today). 18:37:39 what great features specifically? 18:37:52 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ALGOL_68_and_C%2B%2B talks about some of it. 18:38:04 shachaf: I don't think it was odd 50 years ago. wasn't that already when lisp machines with gc were established? 18:38:15 mind you, some of them only had gc for fixed-size conses 18:38:17 but still 18:38:49 prolog has gc, but is newer 18:38:50 I mean, odd for a language that might be in competition with C. 18:39:07 wob_jonas: Also thanks for mentioning Geo, it's more similar to the things I was looking for than I though. 18:39:25 shachaf: I don't think C was meant to be in direct competition with algol 18:39:48 it was certainly inspired, but then most programming languages are inspired by the other popular programming languages that already existed 18:39:49 I figured out what "break", "continue", "return" etc. mean, I don't remember whether I mentioned. 18:39:52 C is a B derivative that adds a type system 18:40:02 and B was focused on being as easy to implement as possible 18:40:42 shachaf: break, continue, return in what? I admit geo's documentation isn't really complete, and in particular I have no idea what the precise semantics of "var" declarations are. 18:40:57 When you have labeled exit, break/continue/return all just mean exit to a particular label. 18:41:10 Also, it's a weird toy language that I made long ago and frozen, it's not a good language, I don't stand by the decisions I made for it anymore. 18:41:21 shachaf: yeah, we talked aboutr that 18:41:31 OK, I didn't remember whether I put it that way. 18:41:42 So "return x;" just means "exit @return_label x;" 18:42:24 Algol 68 had nonlocal goto. So strange. 18:42:38 ais523: Was it Algol 68 that you mentioned call-by-name semantics for not long ago? 18:42:58 shachaf: I think I mentioned that the C standard and IIRC the C++ standard *define* them that way. the full definition is tricky because they act on both while/do-while/for loops and switches, but 18:43:22 gotos are certainly the easiest way to define them in those languages, because they match how they affect the lexical scope and runtime scope of variables. 18:43:30 s/runtime scope/runtime liveness/ 18:44:04 And the construction and deconstruction of variables and temporaries too in C++. 18:45:55 I'm saying this for C and C++ in particular, it's slightly less true in perl, and even less true in ruby and rust. 18:46:10 Anyway the reason I ended up reading about Algol 68 was that I was trying to figure out what lvalues are. 18:46:25 C has the notion of lvalues and also of pointers, and they're pretty similar. 18:46:45 ais523: what do you mean by "call-by-name"? do you mean just passing function arguments by a pointer/reference to them? because I think fortran has that. 18:46:59 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:47:07 I remember the example ais523 gave was pretty surprising but I don't remember the details now. 18:47:11 shachaf: that's tricky because every language treats lvalues differently. 18:47:44 In Algol 68, as far as I can tell, you don't don't ever declare mutable variables exactly. 18:47:48 shachaf: what do you mean by nonlocal goto? goto across function boundaries? 18:48:12 You can pass a goto label as an argument to a function, and it looks to it like a function pointer. 18:48:35 shachaf: oh, computed/indirect goto. wow. 18:48:53 So the equivalent of "int x = 5;" is something like "int *const x = stack_allocate; *x = 5;" 18:48:58 (With a shorthand syntax.)b 18:49:43 no direct mutable variables is surprising for that age, but I'm not sure if it's a feature over C and C++, because you can use one-element arrays in C and references in C++ in a somewhat similar way. 18:50:14 C++ references are something weird and suspicious. 18:50:29 in fact there's a trick in C where a library header defines an opaque type as a one-element array if such values are to be passed to library functions by reference but can be allocated on the stack. 18:50:40 GMP does that for example 18:51:01 shachaf: they're weird, but part of the weirdness is that it took a long time to figure out the right semantics, so there are some historical mistakes on them 18:51:44 I'm not so sure they've figured out the right semantics anyway. 18:51:48 done right I think references are a good tool, although one that is prone to overusing 18:51:59 shachaf: they're working on it, and some of it is too late to fix 18:52:10 some of it they're still trying to add to future versions 18:52:21 there are multiple problems to be solved 18:52:57 mostly connected with efficient handling of refs to data structures that are not trivial to copy or move or initialize empty or destroy 18:53:19 but also with just the current syntax and library support not being good enough 18:53:27 C++ is so complicated. 18:53:37 I like the Algol system because it seems simpler than the C system. 18:53:55 and how they combine with more questionable features, such as the new initializer-list-arguments and variadic templates 18:54:06 Though the implicit coercions between ref int and int and so on are suspicious. 18:54:42 shachaf: but does the algol system has any inefficiencies, like things you can't do efficiently because of them or that are hard to do efficiently? 18:55:18 especially in low-level programs that want to be efficient at runtime 18:55:22 which C wants to support 18:55:38 I think it'd be the same? 18:55:57 I don't know algol, that's why I'm asking 18:56:33 I don't either. 18:58:10 Rust references are very different, they're less powerful than the C++ ones (at least currently, they're working on some of that), and have very different kinds of magic from the C++ references (and I hate some of the rust magic, but some of it is about traits, and that magic would be already there without references, references just make it worse) 18:59:08 Rust has references? 18:59:15 I thought they just have different kinds of pointers. 19:00:36 shachaf: sort of. there's something they call references, which differ from the pointers it also has (and the pointers differ from C pointers, but that's a different question), they have very different goals from C++ references, but some of the goals are shared. 19:03:03 wob_jonas: here's an example of call-by-name (pseudocode C-like syntax): int x = 3; int f(int y) {x = 5; return y+1;} print(f(x+4)); 19:03:09 mind you, C pointers are easy to almost simulate with rust pointers, so rust is strictly more powerful in them, with the exception that rust doesn't have an offsetof 19:03:11 this prints 10 19:03:25 well, Rust has C pointers too 19:03:52 ais523: no, it has rust pointers, which are similar to C pointers but differ in two ways 19:04:06 well, two ways not counting the lack of offsetof 19:04:12 wob_jonas: you can think of call-by-name as effectively passing the concept of "x+4" as an argument, as opposed to 7 (i.e. the value of x+4) 19:04:55 ais523: wow, that is strange to have in such an old language, especially if it has that by default. that means making automatic closures. 19:05:22 languages took a lot of time until they started to support even explicit closures, except for lisp, most of which had it from the start 19:05:29 hmm... I'm not sure 19:05:34 maybe lisp didn't have them from the start 19:05:57 I don't think it requires closures? it requires some sort of lightweight functional thing, but I don't think it's a closure 19:06:02 because it doesn't capture anything 19:06:42 err, unless you allow recursion, in which case it captures the current stack depth so that it can disambiguate which version of a local variable you mean 19:06:43 both scheme and common lisp has them now, but in scheme and haskell and standard ml, function references and named functions have close to the same syntax and behavior, whereas in common lisp they have different syntax, and in prolog they have different syntax and behavior 19:08:01 ais523: it captures at least a pointer to stack. some C++ closures and gcc C closures are implemented that way, although C++ doesn't strictly speaking guarantees this, 19:08:22 yes, I think "captures a pointer to stack" is the right way to think about this 19:08:41 so it's the same concept as a gcc nested function 19:08:53 which is also suffering from the lack of a good name 19:09:01 although C++/rust closures have a code size hit because they're specialized for each closure body, whereas gcc C closures have a runtime hit, because they're implemented in a way that that their calling convention is compatible with plain C functions 19:09:15 right, the trampoline 19:10:56 ais523: Are you sure Algol 68 does that? 19:10:59 there's also the part where gcc C functions require an executable stack, which people hate these days, but that wasn't yet the case when gcc C closures were invented, because back then most CPU MMUs didn't support non-executable readable memory areas on a flat address arch 19:11:16 shachaf: Algol 68 doesn't do that, call-by-name is an Algol 60 thing 19:11:26 Oh. 19:11:33 Algol 68 changed to call-by-value because people found call-by-name too confusing and too hard to implement 19:11:36 and I think gcc's primary target were flat address CPUs even back then 19:12:15 That makes sense. 19:12:18 as opposed to segmented ones, which did support non-executable readable segments, which in fact was easy to implement in 286 since they already had to support at least three differently executable segments, if not four 19:12:22 more I think 19:12:44 16 bit versus 32 bit, and normal executable segments vs interrupt gates vs system call gates, and I think that's partly orthogonal 19:12:55 32 bit only on the 386 I guess 19:13:47 ais523: I believe fortran has had call by reference from the start, which is easier. it just involves passing a transparent-syntax pointer to the argument, even if the argument is a temporary 19:14:35 "call-by-reference" is basically just call-by-lvalue (whereas "call-by-value" is call-by-rvalue) 19:14:43 programming languages stopped that when functions got cheap enough that people started to make a lot of them, and call by ref became a severe runtime performance hit, especially because cross-compilation-unit it can't be optimized away 19:14:54 ais523: yes. 19:14:54 by-reference and by-value are basically identical, just differ in whether it's an lvalue or rvalue you're passing 19:15:18 I'm a bit skeptical of lvalues, I think. 19:15:22 I think Perl is a good example of an actually call-by-reference language 19:15:29 although it's also capable of return-by-reference, which is just bizarre 19:15:39 yes, but exclusive call-by-reference is not a good idea if you want efficient low-level programming, which was a goal of C from the start 19:15:57 ais523: ... perl is strange though, also for historical reasons 19:16:02 the only use for return-by-reference I've discovered so far is the array syntax in A Pear Tree 19:16:51 What is return-by-reference? 19:16:56 Perl parses "x[3]" as a call to the function x whose argument is an anonymous array reference to an array containing only the element 3 19:16:57 BASIC does call by reference normally but you can specify BYVAL if you want by values instead 19:17:08 C++ operator[] returns references which seems like one of the only justifications for having references maybe. 19:17:19 but it's actually possible to write this function such that you can make it return the array element as an lvalue, so you can still assign to it 19:17:25 ais523: it's even more strange that perl has had builtins returning magical references, namely vec and substr, before it had user-definable magic scalars 19:17:27 ais523: come to think of it, this implies that Ⅎ is TC with exactly one pair of parentheses in the whole program => great and neat, I’ll include it in the article with the now obvious s-k proof 19:17:55 I think they added that syntax for substr because BASIC had it (at least most dialects, some BASICs don't even have strings) 19:18:04 wob_jonas: @_ is magical too, stealing the magic from @_ is a fun way to do programming puzzles 19:18:13 ais523: yeah, I know 19:18:19 I have a link for that too 19:19:15 (BYVAL is only valid for numbers though; it cannot be used with strings, structures, or arrays) 19:21:32 So a pointer is a thing whose value is a memory location; an lvalue is a memory location. Is that right? 19:23:25 ais523: https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=302287 question 1 and 3, https://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=376362 exercise 6 IIRC 19:23:26 Or maybe an lvalue is a thing that has a memory location, instead. 19:23:36 about perl @_ magic 19:23:59 shachaf: again, in what language? 19:24:18 C. 19:24:51 shachaf: in that case, for C pointers to objects and C lvalues, yes, for pointers to functions, usually but not necessarily 19:25:50 and the type of the pointer may restrict what memory locations are allowed, but a void * can point to any data or function (except bitfields) and you can losslessly use it that way 19:26:12 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:26:25 and a struct {} * can point to any structure or union (which may be a bit more restrictive on crazy architectures) 19:27:08 shachaf: C technically has lvalues to bitfields, and you can't have pointers to them 19:27:24 but they're rare and I hate them 19:27:59 (I hate bitfields, and they'd be basically unusable without lvalues.) 19:28:59 obviously, "a memory location" is quite general, because C is defined in such a way that you can store practically anything in a memory location, possibly with some indirection involved 19:29:07 because you can allocate new memory locations and put anything in them 19:29:37 <\oren\> char * is actually the most general pointer 19:29:42 <\oren\> not void * 19:30:00 wob_jonas: I already know how Perl @_ magic works 19:30:04 it's possibly more insane than you'd think 19:30:16 ais523: sure, I'm just showing some examples of its insane uses 19:30:20 <\oren\> specifically, functions like memcpy take char * not void * 19:30:21 \oren\: did you solve your build system 19:30:24 incidentally, the internal implementation of Perl arrays is sufficiently general to allow them to contain other arrays, and even hashes 19:30:30 (not references to them, the array/hash itself) 19:30:35 <\oren\> shachaf: no 19:30:39 but I'm not sure you can make that happen without XS 19:30:42 I might not know how insane it is, I know recent perl has specific optimizations to avoid the slowdown with @_'s crazyness in many cases when that's not needed 19:30:51 <\oren\> shachaf: in fact it takes >12 hours now 19:32:00 ais523: I think that would break invariants badly, but otoh arbitrary aliasing of scalars usually doesn't, it only breaks some optimizations, and there are some types of aliasing you can only do with XS or non-core modules. 19:32:16 wob_jonas: with that first link, an "intended solution" to question 5 actually got added to the language, presumably after that question was asked 19:33:35 wob_jonas: haha, I like the solution to exercise 1 that sets $[ 19:33:35 ais523: even its implementation? this question allows you to use undocumented features or bugs, and refers to a specific version of perl 19:33:58 wob_jonas: it'd be in a later version 19:34:30 presumably this was as a replacement for the "my $x if 0;" bug 19:35:37 ais523: how do you know what the intended solutions were? I'm not sure xmath ever said explicitly, he only gave hints, and he admitted that people found better solutions for some of the exercises 19:36:02 wob_jonas: you're misreading my comment 19:36:18 I mean that Perl now has an intentional way to create a static variable lexically scoped to a single subroutine 19:36:20 oh, I see 19:36:28 "an" intended solution, not "the" intended solution 19:36:34 yes, that's "scope" 19:37:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:37:41 no 19:37:42 "state" 19:37:45 not "scope" 19:42:55 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 19:44:25 wob_jonas: hm i don't know why HackEso didn't respond to you, then. 19:44:29 those crazy old perl puzzles were fun, xmath even credits me with finding an alternate solution he didn't know of 19:45:02 oerjan: it might have been an error on my part, like typoing his name (although I think I checked) or messaging him before I identified to freenode 19:45:27 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 19:45:30 since it did reply to me later in similar conditions, it's probably solved 19:45:34 whatever it was 19:45:38 in fact let me ask him now 19:45:51 does answer me now 19:45:53 and quickly too 19:45:59 good 19:46:14 doesn't take twenty seconds to get swapped in like hackeso did 19:46:19 it was mostly an upgrade 19:46:29 indeed 19:47:02 I should try to install 7za to it so I can extract compressed files downloaded with `fetch more easily 19:47:13 I tried for hackego but failed 19:47:19 maybe it will work if I tried again 19:47:23 but I'm lazy to try now 19:47:30 I tried to install a binary 19:47:41 but I think there was some incompatibility with system libraries 19:50:08 I still can't tell if I should be proud or ashamed of having gotten two consecutive quotes in the hackeso quotedb 19:50:36 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57445&oldid=57424 * Arseniiv * (+269) more about power 19:51:38 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57446&oldid=57445 * Arseniiv * (+6) a single word is worth more than a thousand dollars (no) 19:54:38 why is that think "usability unknown"? 19:54:43 Totally different topic. I'm re-reading Leon Lenderman's pop science book. 19:54:52 esoprogrammers are good at using things, if it's TC it's almost certainly usable 19:55:13 I guess exceptions could be languages which were inherently very slow, or the like 19:55:14 why then there is that category? 19:55:28 arseniiv: it's for languages where we don't know if you can produce usable programs in them at all 19:55:37 aaah 19:55:51 For much of the book, he talks about his carreer as the director of a particle accelerator, including being responsible for keeping its budget, and then about convincing president Reagan to fund a more expensive future particle accelerator from state funds. 19:55:55 there are some languages which are sub-TC but obviously usable, like finite-tape brainfuck 19:56:12 but there are some languages which we're not sure whether they approach any sort of meaningful computational class 19:56:30 then I’ll delete that category from both Ⅎ and YE…A 19:57:22 Then a bit later, he gives the simulee that the Big Bang is a "particle-accelerator without a budget constraint", and explains that astrophisicists are examining its consequences with space-based telescopes and making a model about it and that the physics research for astrophysics and particle physics connects. 19:57:35 [[YEOOIIOOIOA]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57447&oldid=54939 * Arseniiv * (-31) usability known! 19:58:11 Am I the only one who finds the "without budget constraints" part strange? Those space-based telescopes cost a ton of money, and Lenderman must have been familiar with that. 19:58:17 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57448&oldid=57446 * Arseniiv * (-31) it is completely usable when or if implemented 19:58:52 btw https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Usability_unknown is vague on the topic 19:59:26 someone should write something clearer, then 19:59:31 arseniiv: try https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Categorization , it often gives better desc of the categories 20:00:10 wob_jonas: not much clearer( 20:00:39 I remember I’ve read all that thoroughly when writing YE…A article :) 20:01:24 I keep reading that page just to remember what categories we use. I've made a page that has nine categories. 20:01:38 https://esolangs.org/wiki/Game_of_Life 20:01:41 oh 20:02:01 well, not made, but extended seriously 20:02:42 it's still short, but it was even shorter 20:02:53 and it's an important language because of its popularity 20:02:58 btw doesn’t “Turing tarpits” imply “Turing-complete” (categorizationally speaking)? 20:03:04 you know, like Intercal 20:03:19 yeah, GoL is 20:03:26 …something… 20:03:28 arseniiv: yes, but we still add both categories to most lang pages apparently 20:03:35 arseniiv: it does, but I think we decided to put both categories on 20:03:38 there was a discussion about it a while back 20:03:50 there are a few pages that only have the tarpit, but they might be mistakes 20:03:59 like, there are language pages still missing [[Category:Languages]] 20:04:06 which is a mistake too 20:04:30 [[IPVL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57449&oldid=56995 * Oerjan * (-27) Eviscerate non-category 20:04:42 I wish the main namespace was reserved for languages (plus redirects), but we don't want to change that now 20:05:06 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:05:21 though they say when Conway got to know High life, he said that in a fair world it should be named the life instead of the usual one 20:05:57 there are a few pages that only have the tarpit, but they might be mistakes => oh then I’ll add this one too 20:06:00 just like how the main namespace of Wiktionary is reserved for headword entries (so much that [[Main Page]] is a redirect IIRC), the one for Wikimedia Commons is reserved for galleries, and the one for wikidata is reserved for entries that aren't even in wikitext format 20:06:28 and the one for wikidata is reserved for entries that aren't even in wikitext format => :D hehe 20:06:32 [[]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57450&oldid=57159 * Oerjan * (-27) Eviscerate non-category 20:06:48 arseniiv: don't believe that to me btw, believe that to ais523 or other trusted people 20:07:56 arseniiv: well, it's fair, because that's the main purpose and the largest amount of entries in wikidata, and those entries are still "wiki" in the sense that they're easy to edit by anyone and have full dated version history unfalsifiable by non-admis readable to everyone 20:08:10 [[Printf]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57451&oldid=57443 * Oerjan * (-27) No such thing 20:08:48 wob_jonas: believe that to ais523 or other trusted people => reasonable precaution (however I don’t think you’re that far from the consensus) 20:09:16 arseniiv: Commons should probably have had media as its main namespace, but they'd have to modify the mediawiki software for that, which probably wasn't worth the trouble, since media files in their own separate namespace was already supported by default in mediawiki (although commons has some enchancements since) 20:10:51 also, Commons isn't as strange as Wikidata: the media still all come with a description page in wikitext format, which can be edited and read and version historied and dump downloaded and categorized independently from the media content, and I believe you can even create a page in the namespace with zero versions of the media content uploaded, only 20:10:51 shouldn't. 20:12:38 arseniiv: ais and the other wiki admins work hard to enforce the conventions 20:13:04 arseniiv: by the way, I wanted to ask, where is your nick from, is there a canon pronunciation, and does the "iiv" part want to be a roman numeral? 20:13:50 ah this is asked sometimes! 20:14:38 I'd note that tom7 also calls himself Tom Murphy VII, and explains why on his homepage 20:14:49 but iiv isn't a real roman numeral 20:14:52 so that's stranger 20:14:55 iv could still be 20:15:03 which part is asked? 20:15:38 people often ask these questions about nicks of various people online, so it's not too surprising 20:15:58 [[Ackermann function]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57452&oldid=57436 * Oerjan * (-213) There's no real difference other than for negatives, so instead change the shorter one to use unsigned. 20:17:46 I usually get asked if I named myself of the band called "Jonas Brothers" (no, no relation, I hadn't even heard of them until I started using this nick) or 20:18:07 what the "b_" means (nothing much, I just wanted a distinguishing prefix because I previously used "jonas" and still use it on some forums (in the broad sense), but I like the letter "b", it's not too common, and it is the only letter to appear twice in my real world name) 20:18:39 They rarely ask how I pronounce it or why "jonas", but sometimes I volunteer to tell the latter anyway. 20:18:49 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57453&oldid=57433 * Oerjan * (-138) This section is for proofs, let's not add unfinished stuff. 20:19:16 Although some forums have a general thread addressing every user in general for what their nick origin is, so that could count. 20:20:21 On perlmonks the respective thread was for a while called "the node that must not be linked" because it was too long and so put a large demand on the server when many people clicked on a link to it at the same time 20:20:53 hmm, now I wonder how easy it would be to make forum software which worked by editing a static HTML page whenever a comment was posted, incrementally 20:20:57 since threads in that forum are hierarchical, but don't have a paging system, so they show every reply up to a certain depth when you load a thread in the default view 20:22:21 * oerjan assumed arseniiv was a russian surname 20:22:33 I hate interfaces that have a stupid paging system that shows too few entries of a list and are hard to navigate, in general, not just for forum threads. I understand why you need restrictions on how much you of a list show to conserve server and client resources, but many software are overdoing it. 20:22:36 originally, it came from my first name Arseni[i] and a letter from a patronymic (IDK why I did that, it was long ago), *but* it’s completely normal to read it as arseni⋅iv, as when it’s a Roman numeral (but what would it mean? It could mean anything or just itself, I don’t mean) 20:22:36 and for the pronunciation part, I myself use something like /arsʲenʲiˈiv/ (whch is somewhat strange as my name is stressed on the second syllable) 20:23:36 arseniiv: besides tom7, ais523 and sam512 use numerals in their nick. (sam512 has changed his nick to qntm since). it's sort of common to use numerals in nicks. 20:24:01 oerjan: haha maybe there is one like this 20:24:09 Arsenii is a given name? interesting 20:24:26 oerjan: did he say it's russian? 20:24:32 wait does qntm appear here? 20:24:42 arseniiv: he doesn't, and he's not related to esolangs 20:24:49 ah 20:25:06 what a pity he doesn’t 20:25:26 arseniiv: he's mostly known as a sci-fi writer who publishes short story series online, and has an old webcomic, his homepage is http://qntm.org/ 20:25:40 yeah I know :) 20:25:46 but he has a presence on the internet and reacts to emails and comments and messages 20:25:54 we’ve discussed this even(?) 20:25:58 wob_jonas: well it looks russian, and he is. 20:26:26 I wrote him a email once, but I fear it was considered spam, as he hadn’t replied 20:28:30 ok, maybe he only _used to_ react to emails, but he still gives his email address on https://qntm.org/contact and reacts to comments on his webpage. What he has redacted is (what I presume is) his real name. 20:28:45 And also the old alias "sam523" from qntm now. 20:28:57 you can still find traces to it in some links, but they're better hidden. 20:29:29 yes he seemed to write it was his name 20:30:02 I dunno why he does that, since people know him under both of those, and this makes it harder to use a web search to find his webpage based on them (though probably still not too hard) 20:30:38 I know them under those names from back when he used both and haven't started using qntm as a nick 20:31:09 on the other hand, David Madore uses three names too, but is pretty public about all three of them 20:31:14 IIRC he was posting Ed stories somewhere as if it was a diary, so a reader doesn’t suspect it’s a story (unles she have read other ones) and then woah! is it real? 20:31:19 (and even his middle name)( 20:31:40 arseniiv: um... what do you mean it is real? I'm quite sure they're fictional 20:31:52 indeed they are 20:32:01 and I don't think he ever claimed they weren't, out of universe 20:32:39 I mean he used a trope when eh I don’t know how it’s descripted in a small count of words 20:32:52 he posted them on everything2 originally, and I think he still uses the nick sam512 there, plus he has a story about a robot called "sam512", and mentions his real name in his webcomic among others 20:33:27 the one about robot was after all that, wasn’t it? 20:34:03 after everything2 I mean 20:34:20 btw I don’t get hyperlinking in everything2 20:34:28 it’s strange 20:36:26 arseniiv: it's an odd system, yes. but then consider how mandatory automatic hyperlinks to CamelCase words and recommended CamelCase page titles was quite popular back then, eg. the c3 wiki, tiki wiki, and IIRC Wikipedia at its start did that too, and it's a pretty stupid idea, and tiki wiki's stupid formatter rules make it even worse 20:38:28 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:31 in particular, tiki wiki has several automatic formatting features that come up too often in normal text where you don't want them, but it's hard to escape them, because you have to use a bang prefix to escape them, and you have to know the precise formatter rules because if you add a bang prefix to anything that wouldn't be special formatting, it 20:38:31 will show up as a literal bang, 20:38:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:38:55 I was to say, last time I’ve seen it, there were links to common words, and what they mean is a mystery until you follow them 20:39:02 these features being at least automatic CamelCase links, superscript formatting of text between carets, and some bracketed stuff 20:39:46 although CamelCase links are definitely not a great idea, agree 20:40:16 mediawiki has much fewer of these stupid formatting features that stand in your way, and much better ways to escape them, although formatting everything indented with spaces as pre blocks is probably a mistake in mediawiki 20:40:44 bang bang my wiki shot me down 20:40:47 arseniiv: they wouldn't be such a bad idea if they were easier to escape, or if they only showed up when the page exists and when you're previewing a page you're editing. 20:41:23 the problem is that no wiki is perfect, and most of them are very hard on the system administrators that have to run them, harder than on useres 20:41:51 (btw how good do you think is Markdown (with common extras) for wikis?) 20:42:55 and I've seen many different types of wikis, including two different ones I used as an internal wiki at my previous job, although only from the user and a bit from the moderator side, not from the system administrator side 20:43:00 one of them was tiki wiki 20:43:54 arseniiv: I don't much like Markdown, and I specifically dislike the StackExchange formatter, which is based on it but changed a lot, but it's better than some other wikis, and still better than tiki wiki 20:45:00 I especially hate the variants of the formatter that StackExchange uses for chat lines and for comments resp (as opposed to questions and answers) 20:46:30 I don't like Markdown much either; I like the MediaWiki format 20:47:27 What I particularly like in MediaWiki is that it allows you to fall back to a large subset of HTML syntax for when its other syntax are hard to use for the formatting you want. I think zzo38 doesn't like this part. 20:48:09 This is convenient because the HTML syntax is sometimes more general, and many people already know enough of it to be able to use some of it on mediawiki without having to read that part of mediawiki manual. 20:48:36 wob_jonas: this is also the intended way to do anything nontrivial in Markdown 20:48:37 StackExchange's Markdown supports only a smaller subset of HTML, although that is partly deliberate, to restrict what formatting you're allowed to use. 20:48:42 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:48:43 which defeats one of the main points of Markdown 20:49:20 ais523: I don't know. I think it's a good idea for a wiki formatting language in general, it's just that Markdown's goals are stupid. 20:49:25 IMO there are three major goals in a markup syntax: a) be easy/fast to write, b) be readable in the raw markup without rendering it (ideally the markup should look very like the end result), c) be fully general 20:49:45 markdown fails somewhat at all three 20:49:59 although its main high point is a) as long as you're doing simple things 20:50:22 I think it might be interesting to create one that goes all-in on b) and c), perhaps even using things like trailing whitespace to disambiguate 20:50:36 If (or when) I design a wiki syntax, then I'll make it mostly based on HTML, with some convenient shorthands like in mediawiki, but even more than mediawiki, because I'll add fewer convenience shortcuts, and I'll make the syntax of custom additions be similar in syntax to HTML. 20:51:06 The Everything2/Perlmonks formatters (one is derived from the other) are aligned to that goal, but the execution isn't perfect. 20:51:34 come to think of it, POD does very well at a), and better at b) and c) than Markdown does 20:51:48 In particular, perlmonks has bracket links, which is good, and convenient custom syntax for both inline code and block code, which is good on a site that discusses a programming language, 20:51:50 Fossil wiki format doesn't support HTML comments or macros; MediaWiki does both, and I think such thing should be added into Fossil as well 20:52:30 -!- bradcomp has joined. 20:52:39 (The system administrator could define macros by use of SQL codes and TH1 codes; if other users define macros then more restrictive SQL codes can be used.) 20:53:56 but the bracket links trigger too easily, which is bad, and the format was made before unicode was introduced, so its source can only contain cp1252, of which the gravest consequence is that you can't put non-cp1252 characters in code (inline or block). 20:54:26 oh no it’s actually unlogged! <-- yeah esowiki or Mediawiki strips out most unicode from the announcements for some reason 20:55:00 In perlmonks, bracket links, special tags "c" and "code" and "spoiler" and "readmore", that aren't just a subset of HTML with restrictions for technical and policy reasons. 20:55:10 umn 20:55:28 s/that aren't/are the only formatter features that aren't/ 20:56:46 And bracket links almost always trigger if you use a shortest sequence of left square bracket then square bracket. 20:57:23 This causes problems especially in chat, because you have to escape indexes like [0] or [$x], which are common in perl code. 20:57:35 you can use the convenient c and code tags for them, but still 20:58:48 Fossil wiki has the same problem, although you can use the command and you can also use HTML character entity codes. 20:59:25 (The command in Fossil wiki also can use numbers such as so that it can work even if the text contains or or whatever) 20:59:39 There's also the popular bbcode, which is mostly popularized by phpbb now, and which has various different variants, which I think is also worse than mediawiki syntax but better than tikiwiki. 20:59:48 I think that feature is good and should be added into MediaWiki and bbcode too. 20:59:54 I use multiple phpbb-based forums regularly, so I meet that a lot. 21:01:30 zzo38: nice. TikiWiki has a sort of nice solution for code by the way: surround it with triple brackets. perlmonks's is similar: surround it with ... or ..., case insensitive but whitespace sensitive, and is automatically a code block if it has newlines in it, inline code otherwise. 21:02:17 Then what if the code contains triple brackets? 21:02:30 (For example, if you are showing a example of a TikiWiki code) 21:03:14 zzo38: I think it has more tricky formatting mechanisms too, but I'm not sure. perhaps not in TikiWiki, but there would be in a well-designed wiki, and I think the triple braces aren't exclusive to tiki 21:03:15 Fossil wiki also allows you to disable all wiki formatting for a wiki page, in case you want to use text only. 21:03:58 zzo38: yes, that's useful for importing large amounts of data that is not wiki-formatted 21:04:24 it would be even nicer if there was some automatic way to upgrade such a page to wiki-formatted so you can add formatted parts 21:04:45 I mean, automatically creating a wiki-format text that is mostly equivalent with the plain text 21:05:01 but that might need some tricky heuristics if you want to use it nicely 21:05:24 because you don't just want to escape the whole text usually, that makes it hard to add formatting 21:05:25 You could perhaps use an external program to do that, I suppose; the Fossil command-line interface can then be used together with it in order to post the changed file. 21:07:00 I hope ais523 will eventually write a vcs that's better than the existing ones. 21:07:17 But both designing and implementing one are very hard tasks. 21:07:28 I've got some distance with the designing 21:07:33 Even if you don't do it from scratch, but use existing vcses. 21:07:37 ais523: yeah, I know. 21:07:40 but haven't started implementing and it'd take way too long 21:07:49 but I also know that both parts are difficult 21:08:59 I have multiple requirements that interact in ways that I don't even know how to define a combined semantics that satisfies all of them. 21:09:55 Oh by the way, I'd like to add one more request to the vcs, and this one I think is easy to implement regardless everything else: 21:11:26 make the official reference documentation available in some collected form such as a manpage or directory of html page like mercurial does, but unlike svn, which only provides it as the outputs of various svn --help commands and unlike hg it's not even easy to discover which such outputs exist. 21:12:14 I want to collect all the svn help outputs in the future, it seems feasable but haven't yet done it. I already know you need at least two depths of recursion from the root. 21:12:47 hg help lists all the help pages right in the top-level hg help message, and collects all of it in the manpage. that's the Right Thing to do 21:13:06 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 21:14:01 even worse examples are ImageMagick and ffmpeg, but they partly do that because of a lot of pluggable parts developed partly independently (although distributed together) and not enough resources to document them properly 21:15:06 On the plus side, svn has a C api that is documented and is even more stable on the long therm than the command-line, plus lots of other features I like in it. 21:15:13 wob_jonas: one thing I realised is that the name "scapegoat" is awkward as "sg" already exists 21:15:19 I like svn (Apache Subversion is the official name) in general 21:15:28 and the obvious solution is a separate executable per command, "sg-commit" or whatever 21:15:42 (or just symlinks to a single executable) 21:15:43 ais523: or you can use that as the developer codename, and give it a different official name 21:15:47 -!- xkapastel has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:15:53 what is the sg that already exists? 21:15:54 that'd also have the advantage of man pages working in a really simple way 21:15:59 wob_jonas: like su but for groups 21:16:04 ouch 21:16:06 ok 21:16:17 ais523: as long as you have a single-level index manpage, that's fine 21:16:43 nowadays very few people have permission setups complex enough for sg to be useful, although it is necessary in those cases where you need it 21:16:55 ais523: also, if possible, ALSO make the docs available as an online webpage, which is useful for windows users, because it's hard to find a working man reader for win32 21:17:19 aimake will generate man pages on UNIX and HTML files on Windows from the same sources 21:17:43 ais523: that's fine if you have a 1-depth index for them too in both formats 21:18:56 ais523: git in theory has its manpages online as HTML, but they messed it up, and some automatically generated parts of the manpages are missing from it. perl has made the same mistake with the perl core and cpan, but there's now a separate http://perldoc.perl.org/ webpage associated with them 21:19:03 which fixes that mistake 21:20:36 also, a lot of software, including perl and svn, has some docs that they claim are only for developers of the project itself and so are only distributed in the source code and not collected together with the main docs, but some of which would actually be useful for non-devs and would be easy to add to the normal set of docs 21:21:06 I mean, that's partly unavoidable, because sometimes you want developer docs and there's a lot of unmaintained junk in it 21:21:10 Linux also does that 21:21:18 but still, you have to be careful with it 21:21:50 -!- cods6 has joined. 21:22:35 at least since svn is a version control system, it's also self-hosting now, and they run a web service for reading its official version control repository, and you can see the developer docs there 21:24:16 SQLite does put the developer documents that are also useful for other uses too are also made available outside of the source codes, such as the document of the SQLite file format and the document of the VDBE opcodes. 21:24:19 -!- xkapastel has joined. 21:24:44 also, I've said this already, and I don't have an immediate need for this, but it would be nice if you put a clear declaration into your official version of ayacc that it is distributed under some free software license, just like you did with uncursed and aimake 21:24:53 the file format isn't just internals, though, it's also important for interoperability 21:25:19 wob_jonas: I'm not sure if the license on ayacc is decided yet? I'm trying to remember 21:25:29 there's no logical reason I can think of not to make it GPLv3 though 21:25:41 that, plus the file format is important to estimate some things about how much disk space and disk access and cpu certain workloads use 21:25:44 still, I have a job right now (for complicated technical reasons I only work on ayacc while unemployed) 21:26:22 ais523: last I've seen, it wasn't, but I think you have made a declaration that's somewhere in the #esoteric logs, which could sort of work in a pinch 21:26:41 -!- cods6 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:26:52 ais523: ayacc declares that all code snippets that go into the generated output are under public domain, 21:27:03 but doesn't declare a license for the rest of the code 21:27:07 yes, that's obviously necessary, unless it's implicit 21:27:14 so I would have written it out of habit 21:27:36 yes, and that declaration still helps 21:27:47 since it lets me more easily distribute a program that uses vanilla ayacc 21:28:04 I can distribute the ayacc output with it so people don't have to run it 21:28:29 not that I have such a program yet, but still 21:28:44 even for what I want to write, I could probably use bison 21:28:54 but I prefer ayacc 21:31:02 a bison/ayacc polyglot is fairly easy 21:31:13 although ayacc has some non-bison features you might want to use 21:32:03 yes, and ayacc generates nicer code output, and ayacc is easier to modify in certain ways that I might want to change, such as adding a new output language or language variant, or adding an extension to its syntax 21:32:08 I was considering both 21:32:19 but only in vague plans that I might not ever do 21:32:27 the output isn't as nice as I'd like yet 21:32:32 it's also probably slower than bison noutput 21:32:48 candidates for language variants are rust and stackless C 21:33:23 as for the extensions, I'll probably have to talk to you about what's feasable and what isn't already possible in ayacc before I try 21:35:41 I'm sort of thinking an extension where I have a language where some production rules are such that they cause shift-reduce conflicts, and I want to be able to write a proof whose checking is assisted by ayacc that despite this, you can express "any valid parse tree" in the language with some easy automatable transformations of the input, turning i 21:35:41 t to a subset of the language that has no shift-reduce conflicts but can still express anything. 21:36:03 Such production rules would be ones that allow eliding parenthesis and similar markers to disambiguate precedence. 21:36:37 I think something like that is possible, but I don't have the details completely thought out. 21:37:44 that seems like an interesting goal but one that's quite different from ayacc's, so if you added it to ayacc you'd essentially just have two different programs bolted together 21:37:46 In particular, it's easy to remove the production rules I mark and test if the remaining language has no shift-reduce conflicts, but you also need a way to annotate why you believe it can express any parse tree and check its proof, 21:38:01 although unlike bison, ayacc does have the concept of a production being a no-op, e.g. "(a)" and "a" being equivalent 21:38:02 and ideally also generate a program that does the transformation on any input. 21:39:34 ais523: I don't think it's that different from ayacc, since ayacc already must be able to verify that a language has no shift-reduce conflicts (with false positives, but here too I want to support only proofs of specific form), and it can already parse the description of a grammar to some form it can manipulate, so automatically removing some marke 21:39:34 d productions would be easy if you extended the syntax. 21:39:48 That's the easy part. The hard part might still be difficult to design and implement. 21:40:26 well, I think what would probably be most usable for this would be that, when a conflict is automatically resolved, ayacc could determine whether there was always a way to force the conflict into the other resolution 21:40:30 It might not be ayacc's goal, but since ayacc has readable code for these tasks, it would help implementing this. 21:40:36 although that'd be useful even with manually resolved conflicts, I guess 21:40:52 ais523: I'm thinking of various manual annotations in the grammar for this. 21:40:57 It doesn't have to be full automatic. 21:41:18 It could also have escape hatches for ambiguities that you can't prove with the annotation language, but prove manually. 21:42:50 Like, an annotation would be that I claim that a particular production like {expr -> expr '+' expr} can always be disambiguated by putting parenthesis around it. 21:43:13 perhaps the report could say something like "'expr PLUS expr . TIMES': shift/reduce ambiguity resolved as SHIFT, alternative available as '( expr PLUS expr ) . TIMES'" 21:43:14 Where in the annotation I tell which "parenthesis" that is. 21:44:16 ais523: well, in very simple cases it might be possible to annotate, but I want it on grammars more trivial than just infix operators with different precedence and parenthesis, for in such simple languages, a proof by hand is also easy 21:44:29 s/possible to annotate/possible to automate/ 21:44:41 wob_jonas: I'm thinking about this idea: look for a no-op rule that can be placed on the LHS in order to make it reduce rather than shift 21:45:17 doing it the other way round (i.e. to make it shift rather than reduce) is harder because ayacc thinks left to right, so it doesn't have any concept of the place where the closing paren would have to go 21:45:34 I need it for cases where from the grammar it's not even obvious that a certain construct means the same as another construct, because it's not implemented by a pass-through rule, either because it's not a primitive construct but a consequence of multiple rules, or because we add debug information that shouldn't change semantics. 21:46:04 yes, I think automation would have to rely on pass-through rules 21:46:10 Because of debug information, you can write a no-op rule in a way that ayacc doesn't know is a no-op rule 21:46:12 I'm not getting ayacc to parse and understand arbitrary semantic actions ;-) 21:46:43 The other case comes up for uglier things like some C++ ambiguities, although C++ might be too ugly to produce such an annotated proof. 21:47:14 C++ has reduce/reduce ambiguities and other things that are hard to handle with an LR parser. 21:47:34 C++ syntax is terribly complicated to even parse correctly these days. 21:47:41 even compilers don't always agree on how it works 21:47:54 Is it a full LR parser or a LALR parser? (I don't like C++ syntax; it is too messy) 21:47:58 `olist 1137 21:47:59 olist 1137: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 21:48:17 I still don't understand how a certain template syntax construct is supposed to be parsed, although I think the new versions of the standard clarify it, the standard is just too complicated. 21:48:24 shachaf: oh nice! let me look 21:48:32 the Giant is on a roll 21:48:35 [[]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57454&oldid=57448 * Ais523 * (+248) /* Power */ PDA without parens 21:49:18 hmm... why don't I see the page title in the esowiki bot's change announcement 21:50:05 esowiki isn't very good at Unicode 21:50:42 I see 21:50:42 If it does not support Unicode, then use the percent encoding of the URL. 21:50:52 the URL is fine 21:50:57 it's the page title that is wrong 21:51:09 -!- xa0 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:51:40 you can make an URL to a mediawiki page without even mentioning any escaped form of its name, in at least two ways: by its unique page ID and the change ID of any version of it 21:51:52 this URL does the latter 21:52:36 this is handy for pages of whose escaped title would be too long 21:53:29 -!- xa0 has joined. 21:53:29 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 21:54:10 and those two IDs are mentioned in the mediawiki dumps and the api.php output and you can refer to them in the api.php interface, so there's a high chance that they can be preserved or at least tracked to a fork or dump of a wiki 21:54:23 mediawiki does a lot of things well 21:54:49 it's a pity it's implemented in php :-) 21:55:09 it was implemented in php before php even became a sane programming language 21:55:36 dunno why anyone would do that, I guess they didn't know that mediawiki will be so popular and have so many plugins 21:56:38 -!- xa0 has joined. 21:56:38 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 21:56:57 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:58:07 I would want a SQLite virtual table extension to access remote MediaWiki files. (You can then make a copy of the wiki by the use of INSERT INTO ... SELECT command.) 21:58:18 -!- xa0 has joined. 21:58:18 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 21:58:51 zzo38: you could write such an extension, at least for mediawiki instances where the api.php is enabled for at least read use 21:59:01 (not all mediawikis have it enabled) 21:59:18 -!- xa0 has joined. 21:59:18 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 21:59:44 obviously you couldn't access data that's hidden by administrators, such as user passwords and deleted versions, but that's on purpose 21:59:46 I would want to support incremental updates, but I don't know if the MediaWiki API supports that. 22:00:10 I know of course there is no need copying user passwords (or any other user data other than user pages, since your own copy will have its own users). 22:00:23 -!- xa0 has joined. 22:00:23 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:00:46 zzo38: otoh I believe there are already tools for MediaWiki that allow you to copy a remote wiki, and even output it into a new MediaWiki 22:00:50 zzo38: the MediaWiki API basically just does queries against the database, but from a predefined subset of queries (those which won't cause excess database load) 22:01:06 "batch" operations are supposed to be done on downloadable database dumps 22:01:06 -!- xa0 has joined. 22:01:06 -!- xa0 has quit (Excess Flood). 22:01:15 besides api.php, there's also the older [[special:export]] and [[special:import]] , but they can do somewhat less 22:01:28 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523. 22:01:44 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +b xa0!*@*$##fix_your_connection. 22:02:43 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523. 22:02:55 those are still widely used for moving pages between wikis 22:03:00 say if they got created in the wrong place 22:03:06 ais523: yes, and now some of the bigger wikimedia projects also have incremental dumps to preserve server resources (although you could already simulate them on client side with api.php); plus a so-called "tool server", which are servers that have a frequently updated decompressed copy of the projects and where they give shell access to people they 22:03:06 believe can perform useful tasks 22:03:26 Sometimes you only want a few files, so using API can be used too 22:03:40 ais523: yes, and they're also useful for simple batch downloading of some pages for analysis or conversion 22:04:03 ais523: but the api.php can do much more, and has a reasonably well documented and usable interface, at least for the read-only part 22:04:08 I haven't yet used the write part I think 22:05:28 I don't like how it's called "the API", since there's nothing really exclusive in it, it's just a very good coherent subset of API that exists, so I call it the "api.php interface" 22:05:49 wob_jonas: well it's the API because it's the official public endpoint for automated queries 22:05:50 but naming something "the API" is a fault some other projects commit too 22:05:53 which is what an API is 22:06:16 It can be called "remote API" maybe is better 22:06:32 ais523: the dumps are also an official public endpoint for automated queries 22:07:22 in fact index.php and its CGI parameters are well-documented, and it puts a lot of extra info in invisible HTML stuff, so it's also an official public endpoint 22:07:27 but not interactive, which I guess is part of a requirement for an API and I simply didn't realise it until writing this sentence 22:07:42 plus there's the printable format which also helps and is quite official 22:08:13 ais523: perhaps the interactive part is reasonable, it's hard to call it "application" otherwise 22:12:31 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:20:26 -!- woddf225 has joined. 22:23:23 -!- woddf225 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:26:33 -!- sleepnap has left. 22:32:57 `aglist 611 22:32:58 aglist 611: b_jonas shachaf 22:33:13 I don't think listing on every update is necessary, but maybe when there hasn't been one in a while. 22:36:46 `grwp axiometric 22:36:47 No output. 22:37:16 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 22:46:14 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 22:48:24 wob_jonas: I don't think the semantics of "continue" in the C standard is correct. 22:49:14 wob_jonas: It says that in "while (/* ... */) { /* ... */ continue; /* ... */ contin: ; }", "continue" is equivalent to "goto contin". 22:49:34 shachaf: what do you mean by not correct? 22:49:35 But if the /* ... */ after "continue" declares a variable-length array, that's invalid. 22:49:46 Hmm, you're right. 22:49:53 I mean it's not what they're intending, and what everyone implements. 22:49:54 shachaf: and isn't continue also invalid then? 22:50:17 I don't think so? 22:50:29 I guess it is according to the standard. 22:51:06 Never mind what I said about correctness. 22:51:31 C really doesn't like to have implicit destructors when a variable or temporary goes out of scope, and that's one of the main differences from C++, and exiting from the scope of a variable length array would require calling an implicit destructor in the implementation 22:52:13 especially if expect to repeatedly enter that scope in a loop, so the variable length array has to be recreated an arbitrary number of times with different sizes 22:52:41 normally at the end of a function, you can free the space for all vararg arrays as easily as you free temp stack space for ordinary variables 22:52:47 obviously this depends on the target arch 22:52:48 but still 22:53:28 vararg arrays? 22:53:40 variadic length arrays, sorry 22:55:10 of course, a compiled function might still need to explicitly save and restore some registers, but most cpus that C target are built around that concept and many give convenient ways to do that 22:55:28 x86 doesn't, sadly 22:56:00 well, it has implementation optimizations for saving registers to the stack in some ways 22:56:22 and addressing modes to access the stack easily 22:56:27 I think the actual meaning most people imagine and most compilers implement for "continue" would be closer to "while (/* ... */) { { /* ... */ continue; /* ... */ } contin: ; } 22:56:28 so that's still something 22:56:53 shachaf: what's the difference? 22:57:08 in C that is, not C++ 22:57:12 The extra block around the body. 22:57:17 Oh. 22:57:19 yes, but what's the semantic difference 22:57:36 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 22:57:44 If it declares a variable-length then its lifetime is the inner block 22:57:45 array 22:58:04 yes, but wouldn't the lifetime end immediately after the goto anyway? 22:58:17 goto after the declaration of a variable-length array isn't permitted. 22:59:05 I think there's a good reason for that, but I don't really like C VLAs in first place 22:59:45 many people don't like VLAs in C, so I think the people who insisted on adding it had to make some reasonable compromises for how much they can do 23:00:05 I don't like it either 23:00:24 GNU C has zero-length arrays though, which are sometimes helpful. 23:01:11 I especially don't like stack-allocated VLAs, and only somewhat don't like VLA function parameters 23:01:49 zzo38: zero-length arrays are nice in theory, and it's good that rust supports them and other zero-length objects specially, but I don't think they're a good idea in C, 23:02:34 because allowing them causes incompatibilities in existing programs that use the nonexistance of zero-length arrays as a replacement for the newer static_assert, such as in macros 23:03:12 you can still use negative length arrays for that, and some other portable tricks, but old programs don't know that they have to 23:03:28 programs targeting only newer compilers should use static_assert of course 23:03:35 You can tell GCC to compile in the old mode if you want to though 23:03:37 but C wants to preserve compatibility hard 23:03:43 zzo38: yes, that's true, but still 23:03:49 it's an error that's easy to make accidentally 23:04:01 and hard to detect automatically 23:04:30 it's not even easy to put a warning that catches it, even in a smart compiler, with it mostly coming from macros 23:05:53 a lesser problem is that it also breaks some invariants that some macros might try to rely on, such as that every object has a sizeof at least 1. 23:07:10 that's also why maxint_t is a bad design: it has to be fixed in an abi, and can't be increased when the language or abi adds a larger integer type, which is why even though gnu cc has 128-bit integers, maxint_t is 64-bit. 23:07:44 mind you, technically neither contradicts the standard, since they can just claim that 128-bit integers aren't an integer type, it's just a type similar to integer types, but still 23:08:43 Oh, the C++ standard has it right, it puts an extra block around the loop body before the label. 23:09:53 I have a similar smaller problem with the current proposal for making void a real type in programs: it allows programs to overload the comma operator with void as an argument and a user-defined class as another argument, but existing macros or generic functions can rely on that such overloads can't exist, and using the comma operator with a void va 23:09:53 lue (in either order) is useful in generic code. 23:10:04 This is also something that you can work around in new code, but it's ugly. 23:10:27 Luckily that one could be fixed by changing the proposal slightly to forbid such overloads, but the current proposal doesn't do that. 23:11:11 shachaf: like I said, that's because there's a genuine goal difference between C and C++ about implicit destructors. C wants to forbid them, C++ wants to allow them as much as it can 23:11:36 Right. 23:12:13 although I'm still not sure what difference the inner braces make in C++ 23:12:53 but at least it's plausible to me that C++ may have a difference there that isn't present in C 23:13:17 What do you mean? 23:14:00 The difference is that any destructors for variables declared in the inner block will run at the end of that block. 23:14:26 Or, well, that's a bad description. 23:14:29 well, scope braces in C++ affect implicit destructors of variables and temporaries, and C doesn't have such implicit destructors, so maybe I'm missing some obscure case in C++ where the braces matter 23:14:36 The difference is that it doesn't goto past any variable declaration. 23:14:51 oh, so the problem is _constructors_, not destructors 23:15:03 Well, it's both. 23:15:16 The destructors get run at the end of the block, so you can't have the variables uninitialized. 23:15:32 C also doesn't have variable constructors, other than for variadic-length arrays, and so doesn't forbid gotoing past a variable declaration, whereas C++ forbids that 23:15:59 wouldn't destructors already be ran because of the outer close braces? 23:16:08 skipping constructors I can see 23:17:27 I'm confused. 23:18:44 If you write "{ A a; if (p) goto exit; B b; } exit:", then when p is true, it'll run A(), B(), ~B(), ~A() 23:18:53 And when p is false, it'll run A(), ~A() 23:18:55 Right? 23:19:37 shachaf: you've already convinced me that it's useful to add the extra brace in C++ 23:19:43 Oh. 23:19:53 Then the same issue exists in C with VLAs. 23:20:15 -!- laerling has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:20:51 I just still claim it's not useful in C, because it probably only makes a difference for VLAs and some nonstandard extensions, and there's a good reason to forbid continuing a loop with a VLA declared in it in C because that would need an implicit destructor in practice 23:21:40 but I guess you're right that it's already allowed with the inner braces in C 23:21:45 so perhaps it could be allowed with continue too 23:21:50 I don't know 23:22:10 you could ask on ##C, they're friendly and good at such questions 23:22:15 on freenode that is 23:22:19 ##C is friendly? 23:22:30 not to newbies 23:22:38 and doesn't always answer every question you ask 23:22:54 but it usually doesn't hate people who are not newbies to IRC for asking questions about the C standard 23:23:16 I trust you know the general guidelines about asking a question on IRC 23:23:33 they don't like off-topic questions or newbies that don't keep common IRC ethics 23:23:50 and they don't answer every question, but that would be hard to expect from even the best channels 23:24:30 also, don't ask questions directly about differences between C++ and C in either ##C or ##C++, they don't like each other's language 23:24:56 many of the regulars passionately hate the other language 23:25:30 so it probably makes sense to ask this question above here in #esoteric 23:25:48 but you could phrase it in such a way that it's only about C vlas without mentioning C++, and ask in ##C 23:26:47 both channels also don't like questions about nonstandard extensions or libraries that aren't the standard library or system-dependent questions 23:27:11 they want to think that the standards exist in a vacuum and don't care about practical work in the language 23:27:31 so there are questions you can't easily ask anywhere because it's off-topic between the cracks on every good channel 23:28:16 mind you, there are some other channels on freenode that help in some of those questions 23:28:49 but some questions are still hard to find a good channel for 23:29:06 that's why channels that are geeky but not very on-topic are useful 23:29:14 ##C and ##C++ aren't like that 23:29:45 #esoteric is, and so is #rubik 23:29:53 #rubik is better for vim questions than ##vim actually 23:30:08 well, perhaps 23:30:11 ##vim isn't bad either 23:30:40 on the flip side, some channels are so off-topic that it's hard to get answers to on-topic questions on them 23:31:12 Like #esoteric? 23:32:06 shachaf: no, #esoteric is relatively good for getting answers about esoteric programming languages 23:32:10 compared to some channels 23:32:37 have you tried #English ? it rarely answers questions about the English language, and keeps talking about world politics and stuff like that instead 23:32:51 um, I mean ##English 23:33:26 #esoteric and #rubik are at least 80% off-topic talk, but it still handles on-topic questions well 23:33:39 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:34:09 that's a good thing, it means the channels are useful as a community, not just for answering questions about a topic 23:34:17 I always like when internet forums serve such a purpose 23:34:35 and many others do, and those are the places I frequent 23:34:44 well, some of those obviously 23:34:47 not all of those 23:35:54 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:49:55 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 23:58:42 -!- imode has joined. 2018-08-25: 00:10:19 -!- boily has joined. 00:14:52 -!- imode has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 00:18:10 -!- imode has joined. 00:18:38 -!- imode has quit (Client Quit). 00:20:18 -!- imode has joined. 00:24:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:25:48 -!- joycepao has joined. 00:27:33 -!- joycepao has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:42:10 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 00:45:33 -!- digitalcold has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:03:15 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 01:09:34 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnMEI4aoUfo 01:10:13 -!- moei has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 01:11:40 -!- ep100 has joined. 01:21:39 -!- ep100 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 01:47:13 [[User talk:A]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57455&oldid=57444 * A * (+41) /* Categorization */ 01:49:32 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57456&oldid=57434 * A * (+23) 01:49:50 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57457&oldid=57456 * A * (+0) Mispelling 01:53:32 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57458&oldid=57457 * A * (+37) 01:54:15 -!- boily has quit (Quit: TRIGGER CHICKEN). 01:54:38 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57459&oldid=57458 * A * (+0) 01:57:14 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57460&oldid=57459 * A * (+200) 01:58:39 Oh cool, a Commodore BASIC quine: 01:58:41 10 LIST 01:59:32 https://www.nyx.net/~gthompso/quine.htm calls that one a cheat 02:00:16 Many interactive BASIC interpreters support that, I think? 02:00:42 I'm not very familiar with BASIC, I'm mostly learning due to my unexpected interest in Commodore 64 02:04:55 -!- bradcomp has joined. 02:13:47 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57461&oldid=57460 * A * (+448) 02:14:20 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57462&oldid=57461 * A * (-28) 02:15:26 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57463&oldid=57453 * A * (+138) I am finished now. (Just un-checked) 02:20:00 -!- Roedy10 has joined. 02:21:16 -!- Roedy10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:21:41 Someone wrote a virus for an OS for Commodore 64 02:21:49 "I have not provided an executable for obvious reasons; it you want to try it out, you'll have to figure out a way to build it yourself." 02:22:40 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57464&oldid=57462 * A * (+80) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */ 02:24:18 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57465&oldid=57464 * A * (+86) /* Try Again */ 02:27:29 How to add your own commands into the Z: drive in DOSBOX? 02:28:10 I thought those were hardcoded? 02:28:21 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57466&oldid=57465 * A * (+19) Check again for bad english 02:28:55 Unless you modify DOSBox itself I guess 02:30:44 zzo38, here's the area where Z: programs are added 02:30:45 https://github.com/Henne/dosbox-svn/blob/ac06986809899ea5f922cb29a194e0770169e1ad/src/dos/dos_programs.cpp#L1634 02:31:32 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57467&oldid=57463 * A * (+0) And a mispelled word 02:32:00 I want to add my own files; is it possible to add another drive and add into the PATH automatically in all DOS sessions, to add my own commands? 02:32:33 Yes, that's much easier 02:32:44 dosbox.conf has an autoexec section 02:32:45 I mean the files are external programs rather than being built-in commands 02:34:45 What will DOSBOX do if a DOS program tries to set the date/time? 02:34:45 https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=23611 see the third post 02:34:59 "Are you sure that you want to? It's easier to just add PATH=Z:\;C:\DOSUTILS to the [autoexec] portion of your DOSBox configuration file, where C:\DOSUTILS refers to a real subfolder on a mounted "c drive." " 02:35:15 (And you can add mount commands there as well) 02:36:01 Yes, that can be done, OK 02:37:18 Is printer redirection possible in DOSBOX? Is it possible to connect COM1/LPT1/etc to files and TCP/IP connections? 02:39:08 Also is there any way to perform a video memory dump? 02:39:38 DOSBox supports turning some old protocol (IPX) into TCP/IP connections, not sure how. 02:39:48 Printing's probably easier 02:43:08 I mean just to write the printer output to a file, and then an external program can be used to convert ESC/P to DVI or whatever is needed. 03:06:00 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:52:06 "It's also not possible to store a GEOS file on a remote internet site because chances are that site knows nothing about how a GEOS file is constructed." 06:18:12 -!- bradcomp has joined. 06:25:41 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:01:37 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:18:10 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:40:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 07:46:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 07:46:41 -!- Geeky_Bear has joined. 07:47:27 -!- Geeky_Bear has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 07:48:23 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 07:48:32 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 07:50:50 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 08:06:39 -!- Shragazord has joined. 08:08:55 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:29:29 -!- Shragazord has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 08:30:49 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57468&oldid=57466 * A * (+194) Some comments 08:34:09 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57469&oldid=57468 * A * (+243) 08:34:50 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57470&oldid=57469 * A * (-8) 08:36:55 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:40:50 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:41:08 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57471&oldid=57470 * A * (+8) Undo revision 57470 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 08:41:21 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57472&oldid=57471 * A * (-243) Undo revision 57469 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 08:41:43 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57473&oldid=57472 * A * (-194) Undo revision 57468 by [[Special:Contributions/A|A]] ([[User talk:A|talk]]) 08:42:29 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:54:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 09:06:11 I don't think DOSBox is the best way to emulate Commodore DOS 09:07:41 :) 09:09:00 -!- sftp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 09:47:05 -!- moei has joined. 09:54:19 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:55:35 -!- Fogity has joined. 10:13:48 -!- moei has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:34:04 @check \xs -> reverse xs == xs 10:34:07 +++ OK, passed 100 tests. 11:04:04 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 11:06:40 -!- Fogity has joined. 11:17:09 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 11:19:11 -!- sprocklem has joined. 11:24:43 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:33:23 -!- arseniiv has quit (Quit: gone completely :o). 11:56:11 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:19:25 -!- sftp has joined. 12:27:20 -!- moei has joined. 12:51:23 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:13:30 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:51:48 -!- LKoen has joined. 14:56:36 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:01:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:41:34 -!- ep100 has joined. 16:15:05 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 16:16:58 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:19:00 zzo38: I don't really know much about dosbox. I only used it to play some DOS games, for which dosbox is apparently a popular choice. 16:19:17 But I used bochs, a whole machine emulator, with MS-DOS, to make termbot, which if you can recall was an IRC bot that connected a DOS machine (with two compilers and a line editor and a few other software) onto an IRC channel, giving users full control (root access) to the DOS machine. 16:19:42 I didn't run it much, because I'm afraid people can abuse bugs in the emulator to break out of it. 16:20:04 -!- sleepnap has quit (Client Quit). 16:20:11 But that one had the virtual machine's serial port connected to my script, and my script transferred data between that and IRC. 16:20:45 I can show you how exactly I did it, including the source code of the connecting script and the configuration for bochs if you want. I won't give the full hard disk contents. 16:22:45 Eventually I used two hard disks, a boot hard disk and a data hard disk, so that if you get the computer into a bricked state, which isn't too hard by just writing random stuff to the raw disk image, then you can use a command from IRC to reset the contents of the boot harddisk but preserve the data hard disk. That's not foolproof, because I suspec 16:22:45 t it might be possible to mess up the partition table of the data hard disk in such a way that DOS won't boot, but just zeroing it won't work. 16:23:03 In any case, I could reset the data hard disk manually if someone manages to do that. 16:25:27 -!- ep100_ has joined. 16:28:02 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 16:39:47 Is there anything in Linux like a /dev/camera to access a camera that you can do such like: ff-shrink 3 < /dev/camera | ffjpeg > out.jpeg or whatever 16:52:17 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:52:59 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 16:53:16 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:58:06 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 17:03:19 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:07:29 zzo38: sorry, I don't know much about local camera interfaces. 17:07:41 well 17:07:44 I don't know anything 17:17:23 zzo38: the relevant device file is /dev/video0 but at least cat doesn't seem to be able to read it, even when running as root 17:18:03 Do you need a special program to access it? 17:18:27 Can dd access it? 17:19:03 reading up on this, apparently dd doesn't work either, but programs like ffmpeg can read it 17:19:18 my suspicion is that it only works with very specific buffer sizes, or something like that 17:20:47 If it's a V4L2 device, it works by doing a lot of specific ioctl's. 17:22:55 ah right, ioctls 17:23:25 webcams are quite different from many input devices because they continuously capture video while turned on, as opposed to recording input reactively when they receive it 17:40:47 webcomes are quite different from other webcams too 17:44:41 `? webcome 17:44:42 webcome? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ 17:45:13 (what’s a webcome?) 17:52:45 -!- Fogity has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:53:39 -!- Fogity has joined. 18:03:34 -!- Shragazord has joined. 18:08:11 -!- imode has joined. 18:18:37 -!- ep100 has joined. 18:21:05 -!- ep100_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 18:49:08 -!- imode1 has joined. 18:49:49 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:51:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:52:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 19:07:41 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 19:11:28 I wonder if I could run a Brainfuck interpreter inside a C64's floppy drive 19:12:28 Can a C64's floppy drive be reprogrammed? 19:12:58 I don't know, but it does have its own CPU apparently 19:15:48 modern hard drives are powerful enough to run fairly complex programs 19:16:06 a C64 is much older but should still be able to run BF, almost anything with a CPU can 19:22:05 I still can't get over the notion of drives having their own CPUs 19:22:31 Or "DOS" being an OS that sits on a floppy drive instead of being a silly name for an OS that's run to operate a full computer system 19:26:48 ....I just realized how hypocritical it is to marvel at a computer that's effectively inside a keyboard, while using my laptop. 19:28:51 small/low-powered computers are really cheap nowadays 19:29:00 for embedded work, I mean 19:29:34 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:30:31 you can get a small microcontroller for less than a dollar 19:30:38 right. many webcomes have a powerful computer in them too 19:32:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:35:32 Sgeo__: here's an example of a CPU which costs $1 exactly if bought in bulk: https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/PIC32MM0064GPL028 19:36:38 64 kilobytes of flashable ROM to hold the program, 8 kilobytes of RAM, and a range of low-level peripherals built right into it and directly accessible 19:37:18 The CPU in the 1541 disk drive is actually pretty much the same thing as what's in the C64 itself (a 1 MHz 6502; the C64 has a 6510, but that's not too different). 19:37:20 and a 25 MHz clock rate when not running in low-power mode 19:38:15 like during reading a sector? 19:38:34 apparently if you're running it completely standalone it only has an 8 MHz clock rate because that's how fast the built-in clock runs 19:38:48 I like microcontrollers, they're like computers with built-in motherboards and peripherals 19:44:04 I don't like them, but they're everywhere. There's one in my debit card, there's several in my cheap mobile phone, there's one or more in the cheap hands-free headset, so that's several right that I carry with me. 19:44:22 I only really like big computers with lots of performance. 19:45:37 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:46:32 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:48:07 there's probably one in the battery of the mobile phone too, and the battery of my camera, and several in the camera, including one in the micro-SD card that's in it, and one in the spare micro-SD card I carry with the camera, and there's probably two in my electric toothbrush and one or two in this keyboard I'm typing on and one in the mouse, 19:48:58 and there's definitely a few in the mini tower I use as the amplifier between the computer and the speakers, 19:49:49 and that's only the ones I know of, because who know, maybe there's tiny ones in the bacteria I drink from my water bottle too 19:50:33 wob_jonas: I only really like big computers with lots of performance. => and who doesn’t! 19:50:58 oh, I forgot to mention the TFT display 19:51:06 that one has a computer in it too 19:52:29 and the remote control for the mini tower, and the three led lighting controllers in my house, and the ratio remote controller for one of the led lightings, and there's a proxy token on my keychain that opens five doors now 19:53:09 maybe there's tiny ones in the bacteria I drink from my water bottle too => for most bacteria, it should essentially be nano 19:53:21 (not micro) 19:53:27 and in the readers for each of those doors, and in the door phone client and the door phone server at the gate, 19:53:49 actually more than one there 19:55:13 There are languages where the program's code is on a grid of characters (a square tiling of the Euclidean plane). Theoretically, then, there could be a language where program code is on different tilings, such as a heptagonal tiling of the hyperbolic plane. 19:55:18 oh, I have a landline phone too, and the box the ISP gave me to connect doesn't even make it subtle because it emits a lot of heat and has a big transformer 19:55:34 rdococ: Martin Ender writes a lot of those sorts of languages 19:55:37 and there's probably microcontrollers in each of the four USB chargers I have 19:55:48 Hexagony, which uses a hex grid, is probably the best known 20:00:47 -!- ep100_ has joined. 20:00:48 -!- ep100 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 20:00:54 I found a bug in the Wikipedia article on Commodore DOS 20:01:01 One of the examples isn't rendering properly 20:01:12 Many things they don't need computer; I have once written a schematic for a telephone answering machine that does not use any computer. It does require an external tape recorder, but the tape recorder doesn't require a computer either. 20:03:36 zzo38: sure, but these days they just put microcontrollers in everything because it's easier 20:08:57 often the cost of a device will primarily depend on how many components it has 20:09:14 as more components means you need a bigger circuit board, a more extensive manufacturing process, etc. 20:09:28 so using a single microcontroller can be worthwhile as it can do everything on its own 20:10:51 Why does 6502 indirect indexed addressing only allow starting from the 0 page? 20:11:28 because that means it only uses 8 bits to store the temporary address 20:11:44 Sgeo_: the 6502 has very few real registers, so it effectively uses the first 256 bytes of memory as extra registers 20:11:46 it only has limited space for that sort of "microcode temporary" 20:14:16 oh right, it only has like one adder, and it uses that for arithmetic, indexing, and incrementing the PC, and it's an 8-bit adder so it uses it twice when there's carry 20:15:34 Using the zero page for indirect indexed addressing seems good enough for most purposes anyways; I know 6502 programming, and it can also be used with NES/Famicom too 20:19:10 because the NES uses the same instructions as a 6502 20:19:14 or almost the same 20:19:23 (there are a few exceptions with undocumented opcodes and decimal mode) 20:19:46 -!- Sagan28 has joined. 20:20:14 NES/Famicom has the decimal mode disabled (by removing one internal connection). Also it has the APU and CPU in the same IC. 20:20:38 Other than that it is a NMOS 6502. 20:21:25 what? why does it have the decimal mode disabled? 20:21:41 There was a patent on decimal mode. 20:21:57 Gating it off let them not pay a license fee for it. 20:22:08 wow 20:22:34 The decimal mode flags still exists, but it is not connected to the decimal logic and so decimal mode flag does not do anything. 20:22:53 -!- Sagan28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:22:55 ok, I was just wondering why they'd do that 20:37:22 -!- ep100_ has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:50:29 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:50:34 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:55:42 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:57:22 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 21:01:17 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:06:43 -!- arseniiv has joined. 21:06:43 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 21:27:39 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:52:37 Is it normal for BASIC to make me want to claw my eyes out? There are no local variables 22:04:13 that's common in older languages 22:07:25 Does C64 + SuperCPU support memory protection? I know normal C64 can support pre-emptive multitasking (which seems amazing to me), but no memory protection 22:21:39 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 22:26:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:50:44 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:51:16 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:51:42 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:56:44 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:21:25 -!- MDude has joined. 23:32:35 So I was trying to figure out what method calls really are. 23:32:53 I think the idea is that they try to provide a sort of dynamic namespace? 23:34:22 With regular static namespaces, I can define foo() in namespace N, and then I can say N.foo() 23:35:32 Now on SQLite mailing list they ask when is next release, it says 4 or 5 weeks. Now I know. 23:35:57 With methods and dynamic namespaces, I can define, say, a "push" method for arrays, and then I can say a.push(x) and b.push(x), and conceptually a.push and b.push are different functions. 23:36:55 Someone told me that instead of the usual method approach I should look at "multiple dispatch", which as far as I can tell means function overloading (?). 23:37:29 In what programming language? 23:37:52 There you'd write the same thing as push(a, x) or push(b, x), with which push you want being disambiguated by the type of the first argument (and maybe other arguments). 23:38:20 zzo38: I don't have a specific language in mind. Say C++. 23:38:30 This accomplishes a similar goal but it seems to me that it accomplishes it in a very different way! 23:39:10 In a.push(x), I'm looking up the name "push", unambiguously, inside a namespace which is probably small. 23:41:26 `smlist 480 23:41:26 smlist 480: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 23:41:38 In the second case there's one global symbol, "push", that everyone adds meanings to, and to find out what push(a, x) means I need to look at all of them to find one that works for me. 23:52:35 One feature only found in the "rtree-geopoly" branch is SQLITE_INDEX_CONSTRAINT_FUNCTION, which may be useful in programs other than rtree-geopoly too. 2018-08-26: 00:07:51 -!- nfd has joined. 00:11:00 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:17:01 shachaf, https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aldrich/papers/ecoop05pmd.pdf might be interesting? 00:17:12 "Prototypes with Multiple Dispatch: 00:17:12 An Expressive and Dynamic Object Model" 00:19:17 I want things to be less dynamic, not more dynamic. :-( 00:27:15 If the type is known then it should know how to dispatch at compile time. 00:29:48 Yes, in both cases I mentioned it's known at compile time. 00:30:22 I'd like to understand what's going on there first before worrying about more dynamic things. 00:31:13 Multiple dispatch is pretty tied to dynamic dispatch as far as I understand 00:31:50 I probably don't understand it very well, then. 00:31:56 What's a good example? 00:32:20 I'm not sure, but Lisp and Clojure both support it I believe 00:32:31 *Common Lisp 00:32:43 https://clojure.org/about/runtime_polymorphism 00:33:11 Why couldn't that all be static? 00:34:04 The static version would just be overloading I believe 00:34:14 Right. 00:34:29 Maybe the clojure link isn't really a demonstration, hmm 00:34:49 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch#Common_Lisp 00:34:50 So should I prefer push(a, x) or a.push(x)? 00:35:04 They seem pretty different. 00:35:39 a.push(x) is better for single-dispatch systems, where that first argument is "special" so to speak, I would say 00:36:08 COuld make a language where they mean the same thing 00:36:51 I mean should I prefer single-dispatch or multiple-dispatch, I don't care about the syntax so much. 00:39:05 "In WiNGs while some programs may be running fine, you could start up a 3rd or 4th program or more and if any one of them has a major bug, it can crash the whole system." 00:39:15 Guess WiNGs doesn't have memory protection then 01:34:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 02:18:50 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:13:49 Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and have the proper ordering? (And maybe a empty string represents negative infinity, although there is no positive infinity; if you don't use negative numbers then a empty string means zero) 03:26:26 -!- atslash has joined. 04:15:09 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:20:30 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 04:41:23 How do READ/DATA work in BASIC? I mean, READ somehow knows all DATA statements in the program and reads from them... but how? 04:42:25 Yes, it reads them in order (use RESTORE command to restart the data reading). Presumably it will find where the DATA statements are before reading them, I suppose. 04:42:36 Being BASIC, I would tend to assume the absolute simplest approach. 04:42:39 I don't know exactly how it is implemented. 04:42:48 But I know what those commands do. 04:43:15 i.e. likely each statement in the program gets put in a linked list or similar sequential data structure, and the READ statement just scans that. 05:17:52 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 05:19:26 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 05:34:57 -!- bradcomp has joined. 05:39:24 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 06:12:13 PRINT "{UP}{UP} READY OR NOT, HERE I COME" 06:12:16 I am easily amused 06:53:41 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 06:57:15 Ooh Simons' BASIC has local variables 06:57:41 If you want local variables, maybe consider a language that isn't BASIC. 06:57:42 hth 06:59:36 Not sure if Simons' BASIC's local variables are um, reentrant? Or if it's just a single shadow/unshadow thing 07:00:48 Have you considered ALGOL 68 instead of BASIC? 07:00:51 You'd like it better. 07:02:32 There's a language called COMAL 07:02:33 "(Offsite link) This is (more or less) what happened when a Danish schoolteacher got fed up with Basic back in the early 1980s. COMAL added procedures and various structured-programming facilities. It was popular in the Commodore-64 community in Europe for a few years. This vesrsion has been heavily extended, but still conveys some of the flavor of what those 1980s micro languages were like. There is a very interesting history of the 07:02:33 language (presented as introduction to a bibliography) which puts it in context with BASIC." 07:03:51 -!- imode1 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.2). 07:04:16 Can ALGOL 68 compile to or run on C64? 07:08:36 Why not? 07:13:26 -!- imode has joined. 07:23:15 -!- bradcomp has joined. 07:27:42 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:45:27 -!- iCantBePepperdin has joined. 07:50:35 -!- LKoen has joined. 08:09:47 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 08:38:42 -!- WhySoManyPepperd has joined. 08:40:50 -!- iCantBePepperdin has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:53:00 @tell zzo38 I don't think you can. No matter which value q you choose to correspond to the first non-empty byte string ("\0"?), q/2 is a smaller rational and should've been chosen instead. 08:53:00 Consider it noted. 08:57:26 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:01:09 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 09:11:39 -!- bradcomp has joined. 09:16:18 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:37:32 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57474&oldid=57473 * A * (-34) 09:38:21 [[Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57475&oldid=57467 * A * (-19) /* Computational class */ 09:39:29 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57476&oldid=57474 * A * (+20) 10:09:18 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 10:18:13 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 10:33:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:37:50 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57477&oldid=57476 * A * (-12) 11:00:00 -!- bradcomp has joined. 11:04:24 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 11:32:57 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 11:42:11 @tell zzo38 Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and have the proper ordering? <-- i think not; there are strings with no elements between them, like "" and "\0" 11:42:11 Consider it noted. 11:45:41 oops, ninjaed (fizzied?) 11:46:36 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 12:04:56 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:10:20 [[Esoteric Verilog]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57478&oldid=36298 * Jabutosama * (+540) added definition for chemical 12:33:38 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:39:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 12:41:13 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 12:48:22 -!- bradcomp has joined. 12:52:56 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 13:11:11 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57479&oldid=56686 * GDavid * (+1310) /* Skip If Zero expansion (4 instructions) */ 13:12:31 [[BF instruction minimalization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57480&oldid=57479 * GDavid * (+0) /* Skip If Zero expansion (4 instructions) */ 13:31:47 -!- CurryWurst has joined. 13:33:18 -!- CurryWurst has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:35:29 -!- atslash has joined. 14:27:50 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:30:15 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:36:45 -!- bradcomp has joined. 14:41:06 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 14:50:18 Ah, that is the good point 15:04:47 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 15:06:06 -!- atslash has joined. 15:11:24 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:16:02 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 15:30:30 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 15:31:49 -!- atslash has joined. 15:45:36 Now I made up a SQLite extension to load read-only compressed databases. 16:16:46 -!- LKoen has joined. 16:17:41 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:28:32 -!- bradcomp has joined. 16:33:05 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 16:55:31 -!- ep100_ has joined. 17:33:56 It's weird, instead of wallowing in my own nostalgia, I'm wallowing in other people's nostalgia 17:35:53 How is that? 17:48:40 Should P'' be mentioned somewhere in [[BF instruction minimalization]]? I am not sure where, though. 17:50:33 -!- LKoen has joined. 17:50:40 I'm (currently and probably briefly) obsessed with the Commodore 64, even though I never had one, the closest was Weird Al making fun of it and the JavaOnTheBrain guy's interest 17:51:08 Also the Monty on the Run music was stolen by I Wanna Be The Guy 17:51:32 I have worked with old computers I never had any of, too 17:59:04 -!- imode has joined. 18:05:10 Sgeo__: zzo38: I slightly want to create a simple machine with graphical terminal. As it’s completely impractical by itself, I make it more feasible by thinking it would be an alien machine with alien glyphs, input mode, color representation, language etc. etc. but still I don’t want to make it enough, so it remains a rough idea and not much else 18:05:33 maybe it has same reasons as this nostalgia? 18:06:07 it’d be nice to wrap your head about something small and nice and OTOH sufficiently usable 18:07:20 so the scope of activities is both manageable and worthy of interest by at least several people to share things with 18:08:01 I think brain wants something like this, comfy and warm 18:08:26 what do you think? :: 18:10:06 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:10:42 arseniiv: what do you mean by graphical terminal? full frame buffer? 18:16:59 -!- bradcomp has joined. 18:19:49 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 18:21:30 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 18:50:19 -!- bradcomp has joined. 19:01:51 wob_jonas: yeah, a program can set pixels (or other alien elements) of the screen separately 19:06:13 (I thought about hexagonal elements, or simple brickwork (header bond), this would be not to hard to use or implement) 19:18:15 arseniiv: but then you'd need a fast cpu or something 19:18:26 or maybe a special gpu to help 19:21:24 I thought that if that alien system is slow it’s because it’s not advanced enough 19:23:03 or because it's not designed well 19:23:16 you can do a lot with slow speed but a good design of hardware and software 19:24:17 so 30 fps or alike is reasonable enough. I tested a random-generated image buffer on 640×480 or alike in Processing³, it was giving stable 60fps. However it was with standard square pixels and no post-processing, and no VM computations 19:25:57 generally, older systems emulators and other things do work acceptably, so it should be possible maybe without special GPU 19:27:00 and if such a project is a bigger thing, it’s better to develop an actual OS 19:27:22 arseniiv: yes, but how do you paint on it fast enough? you'd need a special blitter gpu that can copy sections shifted by any number of pixels 19:27:38 (which process I hope I’ll never be in contact with) 19:27:39 and hopefully recolor it too through a palette 19:29:45 wob_jonas: yes, but how do you paint on it fast enough? you'd need a special blitter gpu that can copy sections shifted by any number of pixels => why not copying the entire buffer? And there would be two buffers, of course: one currently being drawn as fast as it’s possible, and the other being fiddled upon by a machine’s instructions 19:29:54 is it too simple a scheme? 19:30:18 anyway I’m not going to make that thing in near future 19:31:39 and hopefully recolor it too through a palette => I thought it would be recolored by VM software, if there’s no more than ~1k palette entries, why not 19:32:08 arseniiv: you'd need too fast a cpu for that 19:53:11 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:53:28 hi ais523 19:58:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:10:40 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:12:46 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 20:13:04 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:14:01 `randquote 20:14:03 1251) When life gives you limes, make esolangs. 20:14:13 `" 20:14:14 376) Dear eHow: Please don't assume that my toilet works like that Or, at least, my toilet looks different \ 689) the allocation is done by the "Dynamic" in DRAM before that we used SRAM where everything was preallocated in the factory olsner: So what's this SDRAM then? fizzie: synchronized, it's for multithreading 20:30:15 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 20:33:45 One possibility for drawing on a display is using a display list; only the display list can draw on the picture. 20:35:00 zzo38: arseniiv said "a program can set pixels (or other alien elements) of the screen separately" for some reason 20:37:24 Yes, but that would allow to set individla pixels while the program is doing other stuff too 20:37:53 -!- bradcomp has joined. 20:38:18 How many music formats require emulating a CPU? 20:38:46 I don't know. NSF does, and probably others too 20:39:00 It is better because custom compression is possible. 20:39:29 http://www.vgmpf.com/Wiki/index.php?title=Category:Formats_With_Programmatic_Content 20:40:10 For SID, I don't think custom compression was used a lot although it's possible. Just various music making tools made their own machine code players to play their data 20:44:19 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:50:01 Do you like the SQLite extensions I wrote? 20:52:09 zzo38: what’s a display list? Isn’t it something like double-buffering? 20:53:24 A display list is a separate program to define the picture to display. 20:53:30 arseniiv: I think it's like buffering of drawing commands rather than buffereing of the drawn pixels 20:54:45 zzo38: do you have a SQLite extension for bignums? 20:55:09 No I do not, but may add it later. Is that something that would be useful to you? 20:55:11 that's something I was trying to handle fairly recently, my current plan is to store them as strings once they're out of the int range, and use a custom collation to sort them in numerical order and custom functions for arithmetic 20:55:31 ais523: why strings rather than blobs? 20:55:36 I did make a collation to sort strings in numerical order. 20:55:38 I guess either works 20:55:40 oh 20:55:42 collation 20:55:44 wob_jonas: Presumably because collations don't work with blobs 20:55:53 yes, that might be easier than a custom format for sorting 20:56:11 mind you, the custom format isn't too bad either 20:56:14 strings sort after ints in sqlite 20:56:20 if you only want integers 20:56:34 so as long as you're only using positive bignums, you can store smallnums as integers for efficiency 20:56:57 even better, sqlite will convert strings to ints in a column with integer affinity iff the string is the digit pattern of some integer 20:57:09 so you get that particular optimisation done automatically without having to code it 20:57:24 My "sqlext_misc" extension includes a "NUMERIC" collation, which can sort numbers in up to base 36, with an optional radix point, leading zeros, trailing zeros, leading/trailing spaces, and an optional sign positive/negative, too. 20:57:42 ais523: make sure you're not using too old sqlite versions then, to avoid the bugs 20:58:39 zzo38: I assume it handles arbitrarily many digits? 20:59:10 ais523: Yes. 21:00:09 -!- WhySoManyPepperd has changed nick to iCantBePepperdin. 21:02:04 I wrote a collation (in Perl) that sorts longer strings first, otherwise lexicographically 21:02:12 I think that works for positive numbers 21:02:31 that depends on how you encode them 21:02:37 to strings 21:03:08 not really, the SQLite/Perl interface sends as Unicode (i.e. a list of codepoints, not in any specific encoding) 21:03:34 I believe the actual bits in memory are encoded in UTF-8 but that's an implementation detail and not visible from within the program unless you use very low-level operations 21:03:35 Actually "sqlext_misc" has a collation like that too, called "RIGHT_BINARY" (there is also "RIGHT_NOCASE") 21:04:24 ais523: that's one sqlite/perl interface. you can send any byte string as an utf-8 string to sqlite and it will happily store it verbatim, as long as you don't try to do anything utf16-related or any unicode-dependent stuff 21:04:39 this is documented but very well hidden in the documentation 21:04:49 it always talks about "utf-8 strings" in the interface 21:05:14 I think one of the biggest mistakes in programming was making encodings visible anywhere other than the I/O layer 21:06:08 ais523: it's not really visible in sqlite3 unless you use one of the few functions or collations that care or any of the utf-16 interfaces 21:06:44 the utf-16 interfaces are fine, as that /is/ an I/O layer (well, an API, which is much the same thing) 21:07:16 ais523: yes, but they make the encoding visible 21:07:23 bleh 21:07:36 if you restrict yourself to the utf-8 interfaces, you don't even have to know that it's utf-8 21:07:41 you can just store whatever byte strings you want 21:08:00 In SQLite you can use CAST(? AS BLOB), in case you need the UTF-8 representation as a blob 21:08:31 or you can just get the utf-8 representation with the C interface or any SANE wrapper of it 21:08:39 not the perl DBI one, which sucks 21:09:04 hmm, I was planning to use that wrapper 21:09:06 why shouldn't I? 21:09:31 wob_jonas: Yes you can (as long as the database is set to UTF-8), although you shouldn't because some SQL functions assume that it is Unicode text. (Also some things won't work proper if there is embedded null characters) 21:10:56 So you should use the SQL TEXT type only for valid sequences of nonzero Unicode codepoints (although it does not have to represent Unicode characters). 21:11:46 Of course, it is also good for ASCII text (which is what I mainly use it for anyways, rather than Unicode). 21:13:48 I don't know what is the perl DBI one anyways 21:17:06 zzo38: it's the Perl module DBD::SQLite, which allows SQLite to be used through the DBI interface 21:17:25 where DBI is another Perl module that abstracts over a large range of databases, giving all the common API functoins consistent names 21:17:29 I can't make up my mind about function overloading. 21:18:08 shachaf: I have the feeling that multiple dispatch should be used only as an optimisation 21:18:16 or as a method of fulfilling an interface/role 21:18:53 ais523: Did you see what I wrote about methods/multiple dispatch above? 21:19:04 how far above? 21:19:15 I noticed you writing something about it a while back 21:19:27 Around 22 hours ago. 21:19:43 probably yes but I'm not sure if I can remember the details 21:20:11 I was trying to figure out whether single dispatch and multiple dispatch are even similar or very different way of accomplishing the same thing. 21:20:23 What does it mean for it to be used only as an optimization? 21:21:36 Different databases have their own functions, so you cannot use the same things for all databases 21:22:32 shachaf: like, you define multiple functions that all do the same thing, so it doesn't matter which is used for correctness purposes 21:22:37 but some are specialised for different types 21:22:44 http://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08-25.html#l3d this thing 21:23:09 zzo38: right, DBI aims to take the common functions (e.g. "run this statement", "retrieve a row of results") and give those consistent names and calling conventions between DBs 21:23:26 it doesn't do things like translate the SQL statements themselves between SQL dialects 21:23:57 shachaf: I believe that method calls should be namespaced independently of which class they belong to 21:24:08 so that the same method name (given appropriate namespacing) always refers to the same operation 21:24:14 ok good night discussing it, I'd rather not get into this or I'll rant about DBI's stupidity and then I won't get to sleep before I have to work 21:24:16 g'nite all 21:24:20 different classes may have to define it differently but it's still meant to do the same thing 21:24:29 That makes some sense, maybe. 21:24:29 wob_jonas: night, you can tell me some other time when you don't have to wake up soon after :-) 21:24:44 Though different types mostly have different operations with different meanings. 21:24:48 and I can put my DBI projects on hold until then 21:24:53 Still there are functions other than SQL statements too. Such as, SQLite has virtual tables, VFS, online backup, etc 21:25:05 meh, you or zzo38 can probably guess what I have to tell about it, or perhaps find it in the logs, I don't recall if I ranted about it yet or not 21:25:08 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:25:51 zzo38: I don't think DBI implements all those 21:27:30 SQLite also supports authorizer hook function, which can be used to disallow some SQL statements from an untrusted source (e.g. from remote users). 21:29:32 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57481&oldid=57046 * DMC * (+4) 21:30:03 ais523: I don't understand how choosing which code to run can be an optimization. 21:30:25 [[User:DMC]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57482&oldid=57481 * DMC * (+1) 21:30:46 shachaf: well some classes will be more restricted versions of the classes they inherit from, so they may be able to do more efficient versions of the same operation 21:31:16 anyway, I should try to get some work done 21:31:17 night everyone 21:31:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 21:35:42 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 21:39:09 @tell ais523 I'm trying to understand all this without inheritance first, it seems complicated enough in that case. 21:39:09 Consider it noted. 21:46:23 How drastically can a font change a character's width? Could be cool to make a font that shows tokenized BASIC as readable text 21:46:39 e.g. expand the token for GOTO into an appearance of the letters "GOTO" 21:49:20 Probably depends on the font format 21:49:43 With .pcf I believe you can do that. 21:52:45 -!- jcDenton has joined. 21:52:55 -!- jcDenton has quit (Client Quit). 22:07:34 -!- bradcomp has joined. 22:19:49 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:23:39 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:28:53 zzo38: A display list is a separate program to define the picture to display. => hm, I don’t follow, then, how is it faster in any way 22:29:49 It may run in a separate display processor that only runs the display list. 22:35:26 ah. I thoought about multithreaded program, one thread displays what is in the “still” buffer, and the main thread runs VM and, through it, manipulates the other buffer’s contents and changes two of them when appropriate (some command for refreshing the screen) 22:36:02 it doesn’t need to be physically feasible, as is, realizable as a sane device 22:50:07 [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57483&oldid=57420 * YamTokWae * (+142) /* External Links */ 22:53:11 I don't really know how to do. You mentioned hexagons display, and alien glyphs, input mode, color representation, language etc. But, what with instruction set? 22:56:02 [[Pxem]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57484&oldid=57483 * YamTokWae * (+4) /* Examples */ 23:00:02 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Quit: ZNC 1.6.5+deb2build2 - http://znc.in). 23:00:18 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:27:56 What was that little CPU game people were playing in here? 23:39:30 -!- olsner has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:42:09 -!- ep100_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:48:36 -!- olsner has joined. 23:52:44 What does the "comm" field of /proc/$$/stat do if the filename contains parentheses or spaces? 2018-08-27: 00:00:47 zzo38: But, what with instruction set? => didn’t think about it, but it would be nice if it somehow anticipated using algebraic datatypes in a language compiled to it 00:02:14 and it would should have a minimalistic instruction set 00:02:20 of course 00:02:50 OK 00:11:07 zzo38: What's the problem with parentheses and spaces? 00:14:44 The fields in that file are separated by spaces, and there is parentheses around it, but how can you parse it if the filename contains parentheses and spaces? 00:15:25 Oh, I misread that as /proc/$$/comm somehow. 00:24:43 zzo38: I found the answer. 00:24:53 zzo38: First you look for the leftmost (, and then you look for the rightmost ) 00:24:59 And the comm is between them. 00:25:08 This is what ps does, at least. 00:25:28 https://github.com/thlorenz/procps/blob/master/deps/procps/proc/readproc.c#L516 00:25:51 Well, I suppose that will work (as long as no other parentheses are possible in that file, which as far as I can tell is the case), although it doesn't seem a very good design. 00:25:57 I agree. 00:26:15 it's p. scow the amount of ad-hoc parsing unix makes you do to do things 00:28:30 I find myself kinda wishing the "everything is text" thing had motivated fewer data representations, not more. 00:29:25 I don't think it's that great. 00:29:56 Structure is good, throwing it away is a scow move 00:31:40 On the other hand, the period structured file systems were pretty scow. 00:32:03 Structure is good, throwing it away is a scow move => +1 vive LispOS! 00:32:09 Well, sure, most things are scow. 00:32:20 But why do we gotta be stuck with the 1970s scow? 00:33:07 Because people are afraid of change. 00:33:42 To the point that you live in a country that's using 16th century scow units. :) 00:33:57 I think I'll give up on all computer things and just do it all myself. 00:35:07 UNIX is still much better than Windows though, even though there are some problem 00:36:17 Is it better than Windows? 00:38:22 Depends on where you're looking really. 00:38:24 A lot of the windows system calls seem better to me. 00:39:53 Yes, a few are in fact better, some are same, many are worse. 00:40:23 I haven't used other UNIX systems much. 00:40:37 Which parts of the Linux system call API are much better than Windows? 00:41:02 It exists? :P 00:41:20 (Windows does not have a stable system call API at all) 00:41:32 I mean kernel32.dll or whatever the equivalent is. 00:41:39 Yes, that is much of why Windows is worse. 00:41:48 The Windows approach seems p. reasonable? 00:41:58 It's like the VDSO in Linux. 00:42:11 Nah, kernel32.dll is not a thin wrapper. 00:42:39 Right, but is that a bad thing? 00:42:40 kernel32.dll is more analogous to glibc, if glibc was built on top of an unstable system call API. 00:43:01 Better for more of the stable API compatiblity layers to be in userspace rather than in the kernel. 00:43:20 (Then again, they do font rendering in the kernel, so, y'know.) 00:46:07 By the way, I didn't really realize until recently why C89 requires all variable declarations to be at the beginning of a block. 00:46:41 It's really laying out a stack frame, just like a struct etc. 00:47:32 Compilers have been ignoring that completely and doing much fancier allocation for a long time so it didn't really occur to me. 00:47:34 Yeah, and period compilers were generally very simple. 00:51:23 Windows debugging-related system calls seem much nicer than ptrace. 00:51:46 And I hear IOCP is p. good? 00:52:44 IOCP is a mixed bag. When it works it's great, but it requires a client-side buffer for each request, and in some cases *can block anyways*. 00:53:00 That's true for a lot of Linux APIs too. :-( 00:53:11 Yeah, and I'm harsh on them for the same exact reasons! 00:53:28 I don't understand why they don't just give you an API where everything is asynchronous. 00:53:59 Where you can do socket I/O and file I/O and it's guaranteed not to block the OS thread. 00:54:23 Yeah, it makes some things really painful not having that. 00:54:41 Thread pools for async IO should not be a thing that people actually do. 00:54:46 Instead it's a mess of different APIs for different things and they have strange restrictions and some things can block anyway. 00:55:01 So you have to use a thread pool, yep. 00:55:30 And it's just so much effort for so much wasted work! To make the thread pool work it has to be doing lots of extra work I don't want! 00:55:45 You can make it work that way, but it really feels like just reimplementing a part of the kernel because the kernel can't be bothered to expose it to you. 00:58:06 Yes, exactly. 01:01:21 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:32:53 Will GCC optimize out a code to switch the endian if it is already correct, in any cases? 01:33:16 I'm confused by that question. 01:33:49 Do you mean "if (IS_BIG_ENDIAN) { x = switch_endian(x); }", where IS_BIG_ENDIAN is known to be false at compile-time? 01:34:49 Or do you mean something along the lines of "char *p; uint32_t x = p[0] | p[1] << 8 | p[2] << 16 | p[3] << 24;"? 01:35:10 I mean like that second way. 01:35:30 In the first case, it can certainly remove that dead code. In the second case, I'm pretty sure it'll recognize that and turn it into a simple instruction that reads 4 bytes at a time. 01:35:40 (Assuming there are no alignment issues, I guess.) 02:47:41 I wonder if there are any C64-like screen editors for shells for modern OSes 02:50:32 zzo38, you mentioned music compression? http://deepsid.chordian.net/?file=MUSICIANS/0-9/4-Mat/Empty_512_bytes.sid 02:51:29 I have no SID player on my computer at this time 02:51:33 The file it's playing is ... huh my copy is 630 bytes, I feel cheated 02:51:37 That website has a built in SID player 02:51:46 Maybe there is a header? 02:52:16 The heck? Windows tells me the size on disk is 0 bytes 02:57:35 Huh, so they measure the side of the .prg file (executable C64 can run). .sid does have a header, so yeah maybe 02:57:52 Although turning a .sid into a .prg would also involve adding a small amount of code 02:59:00 7zip says the .sid is 618 bytes and the .prg is 510 bytes 03:04:32 [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57485&oldid=57451 * A * (+27) Actually, mispelled word 03:04:42 [[Printf]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57486&oldid=57485 * A * (-4) 03:14:53 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 04:06:03 Someone fit the Bad Apple animation onto a single disk for the C64 04:06:13 https://csdb.dk/release/?id=131628 04:25:24 -!- bradcomp has joined. 04:31:43 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 04:42:40 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 05:34:03 -!- copumpkin[m] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds). 05:43:16 ""The (zero) flag is probably misnamed, and should have been called the 05:43:16 flag (for "equals")." 05:48:41 -!- copumpkin[m] has joined. 05:51:08 * Sgeo__ is vaguely annoyed that 6502 asm uses "EOR" instead of "XOR" 05:54:39 "Coding to test the RUN/STOP key is often removed once testing is complete, on the assumption that no one will want to stop perfect program. Incidentally, if you plan to write nothing but 100 percent perfect programs, you will not need to use this subroutine." 08:03:58 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 08:06:17 zzo38: re "comm" field of /proc/$$/stat, see http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man5/proc.5.html and the source of http://procps.sourceforge.net/ which has utilities like ps and top for linux and parse data from /proc , note that you may need to read /proc/$pid/status instead 08:07:31 zzo38: also, if you only want the arguments (argv or the argument list in execve), you can try /proc/$pid/cmdline 08:08:22 the format of /proc/$pid/cmdline is nul-byte-separated and so completely unambiguous 08:21:05 zzo38: You can also read the source code of Linux or of any of the open source BSDs that emulates a linux-like /proc interface. I did that to make sure that that counter somewhere in /proc that counts the number of times a new process was created was 64-bit so it can't overflow. 08:24:07 The counter is the line with "processes" in /proc/stat 08:31:59 zzo38: gcc optimize endian: in some cases yes, but it's hard to tell which those cases are, so it's easier to just steal the macro definitions from http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libev.html , which define sane endianness swapping operations calling builtins on many compilers including gcc and msvc, and falling back to portable C on others. 08:33:19 I can also point to like five other libraries that give you endianness interface, including https://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_68_0/libs/endian/doc/index.html , but I can't vouch for their quality, 08:35:27 whereas I have examined libev in detail and have worked with schmorp on some of libev's integer code, and I know its code is excellent. 08:35:50 Sorry, wrong library. 08:36:01 Instead of libev, I mean http://software.schmorp.de/pkg/libecb.html 08:36:07 Ignore libev for this discussion. 08:36:38 You want the functions ecb_bswap16 08:37:06 , ecb_bswap32, ecb_bswap64, ecb_big_endian, ecb_little_endian. 08:38:04 I also wanted to add macro functions for reading/writing unaligned integers, but eventually schmorp convinced me that malloc is the best solution for that, compilers already optimize it really well and it has exactly correct semantics in C and C++, my solutions were more complicated and not better. 08:48:11 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:49:16 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 08:52:29 Sgeo: yes, the operation was called EOR and IOR back then, for exclusive and inclusive or. It's not xclusive to 6502. 08:52:39 People started "xor" later. 08:52:54 I don't know when "iff" and "ssi" started. 08:53:46 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 09:10:32 "iff" is nxor; wtf is "ssi"? 09:11:01 (Most of my assembly exposure was intel x86, hence 'xor' rather than 'eor') 09:11:29 int-e: You were playing that one assembly game. 09:11:31 What was it called? 09:12:37 shachaf: Which one, box-256, tis100, shenzhen I/O? Or the old hugi competitions? 09:13:02 Box-256, I think that was it. 09:13:11 int-e: "ssi" is "iff" in french 09:13:30 I ssi, err see. 09:17:04 and I think "iff" in the bitwise logic version is called "xnor" or "equ" rather than "nxor", but I'm not sure 09:28:57 wob_jonas: I think you're right... and it's confusing :P 09:29:53 (exclusive neither-nor?) 09:48:48 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 09:49:46 -!- atslash has joined. 09:56:40 int-e: "exclusive nor". sounds better than "nexclusive or". 09:57:40 wait, let me check what the MMIX bitwise instructions call it... it has all 8 bitwise instructions, not just the 4 ones that are invariant to zeros 09:58:50 wob_jonas: I've been trained to think logically... :P 09:59:01 MMIX calls in NXOR 09:59:45 the eight are OR ORN NOR XOR AND ANDN NAND NXOR 10:00:03 in that case there's good precedent to call it "nxor". sorry. 10:00:14 int-e: sorry 10:01:09 and the text gives the short name "bitwise not-exclusive-or" to that instr 10:02:29 the text might have changed in the final version, not likely, but if you want I can check at home where I have the up to date book; the instruction mnemonic can't have changed because that would break compat with MMIXAL programs whose syntax were fixed at that time 10:11:35 yeah, seems unlikely 10:11:58 (that the text changed from the pre-fascicle to the published fascicle) 10:23:37 in any case, "bitwise not-exclusive-or" is definitely not a so silly name that nobody would ever use it 11:13:46 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:45:42 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later). 13:13:48 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:14:31 @messages? 13:14:31 You have 1 new message. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read it. 13:14:36 @messages 13:16:39 hi ai523 13:21:05 I have a question 13:21:26 -!- vertrex has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 13:27:21 -!- vertrex has joined. 13:27:22 -!- vertrex has quit (Changing host). 13:27:22 -!- vertrex has joined. 13:30:12 "don't ask to ask, just ask" 13:30:27 oh damn 13:30:38 it's kind-of pointless to attract someone's attention to say you're going to ask a question, and then not ask it, because there's nothing they can actually do with their attention on the channel 13:30:42 ais523: I asked on #nethack4, then noticed you're not joined there. Join there, or should I ask here? 13:30:51 wait, you are joined there 13:30:51 no, I am there 13:30:55 I'm stupid 13:31:00 just checked #esoteric first 13:40:32 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:02:14 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 14:13:06 -!- vertrex has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 14:14:59 -!- vertrex has joined. 14:15:00 -!- vertrex has quit (Changing host). 14:15:00 -!- vertrex has joined. 15:03:19 -!- arseniiv has joined. 15:06:08 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:10:31 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 15:16:31 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 15:36:09 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:36:44 -!- ep100_ has joined. 15:56:54 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:58:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: quit). 16:03:53 -!- digitalcold has joined. 16:23:43 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:23:58 I am making a graphics extension for SQLite. Currently I have functions GR_BLANK, GR_HCONCAT, GR_HEIGHT, GR_TEXT, GR_VCONCAT, GR_WIDTH, RGB8, RGBA8, RGB16, RGBA16, but I intend eventually will also add functions for making pie charts and other data graphics too (possibly as aggregate functions). 16:24:08 @messages-loud 16:24:08 fizzie said 1d 7h 31m 8s ago: I don't think you can. No matter which value q you choose to correspond to the first non-empty byte string ("\0"?), q/2 is a smaller rational and should've been chosen 16:24:08 instead. 16:24:08 oerjan said 1d 4h 41m 57s ago: Can you make a correspondence between all byte strings and all rational numbers (or, possibly, all rational numbers whose denominator is a power of two), and 16:24:08 have the proper ordering? <-- i think not; there are strings with no elements between them, like "" and "\0" 16:24:52 Do you like this graphics extension? (Note: The extension to display the graphics on the screen is a separate extension (already released, as "sqlext_xwindows"), since it uses Xlib.) 16:38:21 A function to convert a picture into Sixel format may also be helpful, in case you wish to display the picture inline rather than a separate window. 16:38:33 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:04:16 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 17:23:08 [[Math++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57487&oldid=53054 * SuperJedi224 * (+141) 17:50:27 -!- zseri has joined. 17:50:54 -!- imode has joined. 17:53:10 -!- ep100_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 17:54:11 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 17:55:39 -!- ep100_ has joined. 18:10:07 @messages 18:10:07 You don't have any messages 18:19:17 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 18:31:48 -!- void_ has joined. 18:32:48 -!- void_ has quit (Client Quit). 19:04:12 -!- iCantBePepperdin has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:05:41 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 19:13:31 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:20:24 -!- Shragazord has joined. 19:22:32 -!- sprocklem has quit (Quit: brb). 19:25:55 -!- sprocklem has joined. 19:32:26 [[Alphabet Stew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57488&oldid=57287 * DMC * (+57) /* Description */ 19:45:50 -!- erkin has joined. 19:52:29 <\oren\> Lol I figured out this bug only because of my memorization of the numberic values of ascii chaacters 19:53:17 <\oren\> I just happen to know that !"#$ are the first 4 ascii 19:58:16 > [' '..'0'] 19:58:18 " !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0" 20:17:24 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 20:18:01 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:19:11 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 24.5.1)). 20:19:25 -!- xkapastel has joined. 20:32:06 -!- atslash has joined. 20:38:05 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:38:54 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 20:40:40 -!- tswett has joined. 20:42:51 <\oren\> I still think C++ syntax for pure virtual fucntions is retarded 20:42:58 <\oren\> = 0; 20:43:02 <\oren\> wtf 20:44:30 I've always thought that generally, esolangs should be designed with the best and clearest syntax possible. 20:44:37 This means, of course, that C++ fails to meet esolang standards. 20:56:37 So, competition time. 20:56:42 Invent the best esolang based on aviation. 20:57:13 The prize is a free ride in a glider, assuming that I have a commercial pilot's license by the time you make it to Richmond Field on a day that I'm flying there. 20:57:19 tswett: that will never fly 20:57:31 int-e: let tswett have this flight of fancy 20:57:57 I think you guys need to take the ten thousand foot view. 20:58:00 Taneb: fair enough but I don't want to be here when it comes crashing down 20:58:17 I think this idea could really take off. 20:59:22 It's all a matter of having the right attitude. 21:00:46 altitude? 21:01:29 -!- zseri has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:02:27 (personally IDK anything about aviation but that dispatching all that is really hard on people doing it and that they do it well, so there’s less incidents than with cars etc.) 21:03:31 Now I have a completely different idea. 21:03:45 I want to create the fastest video game ever created. 21:04:10 GAME OVER 21:04:18 You click on "start", and the Big Bang happens, and you guide the entire evolution of the universe until its heat death 20 seconds later. 21:07:34 is it possible to base an esolang on keyboard cleaning procedures? I’ve cleaned mine and it was as usual full of cat hair and crumbs of something, and I have finally realized how the Enter key is supposed to be fixed correctly (there are staple-like things which allow the key to press more stable) 21:08:24 tswett: too hard, interesting parts would be unnoticeable 21:10:29 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:20:46 -!- tromp has joined. 21:39:26 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:44:57 -!- atslash has joined. 22:01:10 -!- contrapumpkin has joined. 22:01:57 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 22:03:45 -!- ep100_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:04:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 22:09:48 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 22:11:51 -!- Melvar has joined. 22:15:09 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 22:28:51 -!- LKoen_ has joined. 22:29:20 -!- LKoen has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:30:13 -!- LKoen_ has quit (Client Quit). 22:30:20 -!- LKoen has joined. 22:34:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:47:51 -!- imode has joined. 22:51:59 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:53:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:56:00 -!- sebbu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 22:56:29 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:58:00 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 22:58:58 -!- atslash has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:13:22 -!- atslash has joined. 23:14:32 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:18:46 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 23:19:38 -!- atslash has joined. 23:19:45 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:20:02 -!- arseniiv has joined. 23:22:03 -!- XorSwap has joined. 23:27:18 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 23:43:18 -!- danieljabailey has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 23:50:14 -!- danieljabailey has joined. 23:53:20 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: CHEAPIE! What did you do to the bouncer?! :P (jk)). 23:53:31 -!- rdococ has joined. 23:53:52 -!- rdococ has quit (Changing host). 23:53:52 -!- rdococ has joined. 2018-08-28: 00:00:00 Supposedly BBC Micro BASIC is actually decent 00:05:12 -!- Bowserinator has quit (Quit: Blame iczero something happened). 00:05:12 -!- moony has quit (Quit: Bye!). 00:05:12 -!- ATMunn has quit (Quit: lol rip). 00:05:31 -!- ATMunn has joined. 00:05:52 -!- Bowserinator has joined. 00:08:47 It's faster and supports more structured programming features than most other 8-bit BASICs. 00:09:29 -!- moony has joined. 00:12:37 -!- john_metcalf has joined. 00:13:31 It's faster and supports more structured programming features than most other 8-bit BASICs. 00:13:33 Amstrad CPC BASIC is also pretty good. 00:13:39 -!- impomatic has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:26:36 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 00:27:00 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:32:48 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:35:42 -!- tswett has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:45:31 -!- imode has joined. 01:10:48 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 01:39:30 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 01:55:01 -!- TellsTogo has joined. 03:40:16 -!- XorSwap has quit (Read error: Connection timed out). 03:41:00 -!- XorSwap has joined. 05:05:58 Someone needs to make a cover of "It's all about the Pentiums" in .sid. It would be a song making fun of C64 runnable on C64 05:20:45 and then put a DRM on the file because "My digital media's rights protected" 05:29:28 i have no idea what's causing this error. time to reboot. 05:32:29 -!- quintopia has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 05:38:44 -!- quintopia has joined. 06:00:02 -!- Cale has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:04:31 maybe it's DRM. 06:28:52 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 06:38:45 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:40:36 -!- Melvar has joined. 07:03:09 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 07:03:18 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 07:21:31 -!- Melvar has joined. 07:57:47 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:13:51 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 08:17:05 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:25:15 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 08:47:56 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:50:10 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 08:50:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 08:50:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 09:09:55 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 09:10:56 zzo38: can you remind me where your sqlite extensions are on the internet? 09:11:16 zzo38: also, have you read my replies about linux /proc interface at https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08-27.html#lGb 09:50:06 -!- TellsTogo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:06:44 -!- nfd has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 10:07:28 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 10:16:41 -!- Shragazord has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:47:52 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 11:23:22 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 11:23:47 -!- atslash has joined. 11:28:54 -!- xkapastel has joined. 11:43:43 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 12:00:17 -!- ep100_ has joined. 12:36:12 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:41:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:45:12 -!- SopaXT has joined. 12:48:22 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Quit: Leaving). 12:48:29 -!- SopaXT has quit (Client Quit). 12:48:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 12:52:02 -!- ep100_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 12:59:14 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 13:03:10 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:06:55 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 13:25:12 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:47:37 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:57:30 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 14:00:35 -!- atslash has joined. 14:03:20 -!- ep100_ has joined. 14:06:05 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 14:07:04 -!- atslash has joined. 14:26:00 -!- xkapastel has joined. 14:47:40 -!- aloril has joined. 15:03:51 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:20:10 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:29:32 -!- aloril has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:32:03 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 15:32:20 -!- aloril has joined. 15:37:36 -!- imode has joined. 16:32:18 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:32:54 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 16:37:09 -!- sleepnap has joined. 16:48:42 -!- sleepnap has left. 17:10:50 -!- XorSwap has joined. 17:20:57 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 17:32:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:46:29 -!- moei has quit (Quit: Leaving...). 19:09:22 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:11:40 imode: I remembered what that book was that I mentioned in 2018-08 in this channel https://esolangs.org/logs/2018-08.html#lUz . It's Paul Davies, ''The last three minutes''. 19:35:46 -!- arseniiv has joined. 19:39:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:42:21 thanks! I'll go check that out. 19:50:17 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:51:21 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:56:27 -!- gurmble has joined. 19:56:38 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: The world could be such a nice place, if it weren't for its inhabitants.). 19:58:16 -!- gurmble has changed nick to grumble. 20:06:25 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 20:12:57 -!- john_metcalf has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 20:15:47 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 20:35:45 -!- imode has joined. 20:49:16 -!- moei has joined. 21:07:56 -!- ep100_ has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds). 21:26:57 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 21:57:25 -!- Shragazord has joined. 22:03:58 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:12:33 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:14:29 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:14:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Changing host). 22:14:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 22:37:06 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 23:03:50 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:08:11 -!- shikhin has quit (Quit: Alas.). 23:09:50 -!- shikhin has joined. 23:10:08 -!- shikhin has quit (Client Quit). 23:15:34 <\oren\> Holy crap now when I load gmail.com it shows a LOADING BAR 23:17:31 <\oren\> WTF is this shit, maybe if you didn't use so much angular.js and react.js and goatse.js bullshit it would load fast like it used to 23:19:26 <\oren\> I should make a web framework called goatse.js 23:21:54 <\oren\> goatse.js: 500 GB of minified javascript that allows you to build any web app you can imagine! 23:31:08 -!- erkin has joined. 23:43:20 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:44:01 -!- shikhin has joined. 23:44:20 -!- shikhin has quit (Changing host). 23:44:20 -!- shikhin has joined. 23:44:25 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 23:45:37 -!- shikhin has quit (Client Quit). 23:45:53 -!- shikhin_ has quit (Changing host). 23:45:53 -!- shikhin_ has joined. 23:50:53 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:53:23 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:59:34 -!- shikhin_ has changed nick to shikhin. 2018-08-29: 00:02:53 -!- XorSwap has joined. 00:22:17 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:22:55 -!- erkin has joined. 00:40:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:44:25 I just did poke 0,0 in a C64 emulator in BASIC. Shouldnt that ruin something? 00:44:45 That should swap out KERNAL and BASIC ROM I believe, why is BASIC still functioning? 00:45:19 Oh it should be poke 1,0 00:45:57 That kills it 00:46:12 poke 0,0 seems to protect against poke 1,0 00:49:12 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:49:23 Sgehello 00:49:30 No olist today? 00:51:11 Probably not. Can't say for certain. Day's not over yet 00:59:42 Do you prefer Ada or ALGOL 68? 01:02:15 -!- Hooloovo0 has quit (Quit: Temporarily refracted into a free-standing prism.). 01:03:21 -!- Hoolootwo has joined. 01:04:53 -!- Hoolootwo has changed nick to Hooloovo0. 01:07:49 I'll say Ada although I dont really know either. Ada supposedly has nice properties regarding correctness 01:07:51 And readability 01:08:02 -!- clog has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds). 01:08:15 All I know about Ada is, it has a nice name. 01:12:18 -!- clog has joined. 01:12:47 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 01:18:15 -!- boily has joined. 01:18:58 @tell oerjan bonsœøirjan. I haven't disturbed your ears in quite a while: https://youtu.be/X99D7lLDfwI 01:18:58 Consider it noted. 01:19:20 -!- Gregor has quit (*.net *.split). 01:19:21 -!- SoniEx2 has quit (*.net *.split). 01:19:21 -!- deltab has quit (*.net *.split). 01:19:36 -!- deltab has joined. 01:20:40 -!- Gregor has joined. 01:22:19 -!- SoniEx2 has joined. 01:26:43 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 01:39:47 -!- nodist has joined. 01:40:38 -!- nodist has quit (Client Quit). 01:49:11 -!- rain1 has quit (*.net *.split). 01:49:13 -!- neanias has quit (*.net *.split). 01:49:13 -!- HackEso has quit (*.net *.split). 01:49:13 -!- dingbat has quit (*.net *.split). 01:49:14 -!- HackEso has joined. 01:49:35 -!- neanias has joined. 01:50:25 -!- dingbat has joined. 01:50:40 -!- rain1 has joined. 01:52:34 -!- boily has quit (Quit: LEMMING CHICKEN). 02:14:27 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 02:30:06 -!- XorSwap has joined. 02:43:29 -!- esowiki has joined. 02:43:34 -!- ^[ has joined. 02:45:48 http://christianp.github.io/regex-fractals/ 02:47:17 -!- ^[ has quit (Changing host). 02:47:17 -!- ^[ has joined. 02:50:29 -!- izabera has quit (Changing host). 02:50:29 -!- izabera has joined. 03:22:08 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 03:22:39 -!- XorSwap has joined. 03:52:16 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:59:07 -!- imode has joined. 04:38:46 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 04:43:00 -!- FreeFull has joined. 06:10:37 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 06:16:07 -!- atslash has joined. 06:27:30 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:57:02 [[INTERCAL]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57489&oldid=50612 * Qpliu * (+110) /* External resources */ 07:19:11 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:52:20 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:02:06 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds). 08:04:04 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:27:39 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:58:23 [[Far]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57490&oldid=56999 * GibsonGeorge * (+178) Add print example 09:24:59 There's something fishy about my mental type checker. 09:25:15 I was having a lot of trouble understanding a type, and then I renamed a type variable from b to r, and then it all made perfect sense. 09:28:15 Which is the type? 09:28:41 newtype D f a = D (forall b. (a -> b) -> b -> f b) from Twitter 09:29:00 -!- rain1 has quit (Changing host). 09:29:00 -!- rain1 has joined. 09:29:39 I guess it's not the type checker but the understander, which is admittedly functionality GHC doesn't implement yet. 09:30:54 i,i x : R -> R; x(f) = f^2 09:31:27 Gotta come to terms with your brain being nothing but a big pile o' heuristics 10:00:21 shachaf: heh I'm in the same boat, that type is much more familiar with an 'r'. 10:01:23 So it becomes f (Maybe a) if f is a functor. Yay. 10:03:31 Conventions are powerful. 10:04:02 shachaf: Imagine it had been newtype D a b = D (forall c. (b -> c) -> c -> a c) 10:04:26 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 10:07:32 newtype Duck quack swim = Duck (forall eat. (swim -> eat) -> eat -> quack eat) -- duck typing version 10:08:23 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Client Quit). 10:09:22 int-e: It's supposed to be a type derivative. 10:09:33 I think that works if the second argument is linear? 10:11:54 Mmm. Linear as in "used exactly once"? Sure, then exactly one of the Maybe (in my mental model) is a hole. 10:11:57 err Nothing. 10:12:34 Right. Which I'd wondered how to do before! 10:13:48 I mean, I've thought about representing D f a as (a -o F a), but then you run into parametricity issues or something. 10:19:25 s/F/f/, I guess 10:23:03 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Rebooting). 10:23:06 [[Functional()]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57491&oldid=57386 * Hakerh400 * (+55) Added version info 10:23:33 [[Functional()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57492&oldid=57491 * Hakerh400 * (+0) 10:27:40 -!- FreeFull has joined. 10:28:20 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:29:26 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 10:32:39 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:34:40 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 10:35:33 shachaf: When writing my MsC-equivalent thesis in maths, I have spent a very large amount of time renaming variables so that the proof is more pleasant. 10:36:37 In that case, there were a lot of different variables, so I had to figure out how to rename them without any two clashing. I ended up without any two clashing in any one chapter, and without any two used in more than one chapter clashing. 10:37:05 But I think there are a few that clash between chapter 2 and chapter 3. 10:37:15 -!- arseniiv_ has left. 10:37:30 -!- arseniiv has joined. 11:42:34 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 11:43:30 -!- atslash has joined. 11:47:14 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 11:50:21 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 11:51:39 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Client Quit). 12:56:41 -!- ep100 has joined. 12:57:12 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:57:37 -!- arseniiv has joined. 12:57:58 -!- arseniiv has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:58:20 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:09:45 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 13:13:04 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 13:21:25 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:21:30 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:21:56 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 13:24:22 -!- arseniiv__ has joined. 13:24:22 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:25:53 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 13:25:53 -!- arseniiv__ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 13:28:50 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:43:38 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:51:01 -!- MDude has joined. 14:35:39 -!- SopaXT has joined. 14:36:09 -!- SopaXT has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:37:34 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 14:59:55 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:29:37 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 15:33:00 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:38:21 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:53:17 huh what's this, https://www.gog.com/game/7_billion_humans ... a successor to the human resource machine, hmm 15:58:37 <\oren\> There's something to be said for Fortran 66's rule for implicit typing based on the variable's name 16:00:22 <\oren\> the variables I J K L M N are implicitly integers, and all others are implicitly real 16:00:51 <\oren\> unless declared otherwise, that is 16:01:42 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 16:02:34 <\oren\> lol even modern fortran does this 16:26:15 -!- LKoen has quit (Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.”). 16:56:46 -!- arseniiv__ has joined. 16:57:29 -!- arseniiv__ has left. 16:57:40 -!- arseniiv has joined. 17:09:07 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:22:03 \oren\: hence: "God is real, unless declared integer." 17:30:05 haha 17:32:33 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 17:39:51 -!- Guest56097 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 2.1). 17:41:20 -!- GeekDude has joined. 18:18:21 -!- imode has joined. 18:21:13 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:28:07 \oren\: and then older BASIC took the idea, only every variable defaults to single float, and you can override it either based on the starting letter with DEFINT/DEFSNG/DEFDBL/DEFSTR statements (so many programs start with DEFINT A-Z) or use postifx sigils ("%" for int, "!" for single, "#" for double, "$" for string), but not declare the types of i 18:28:07 ndividual variables yet 18:28:37 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 18:36:19 -!- atslash has joined. 19:11:01 -!- MDude has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)). 19:39:05 -!- Shragazord has joined. 19:41:07 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:02:12 -!- Melvar has quit (Quit: thunderstorm). 20:02:59 -!- MaximusBloo has joined. 20:06:06 what’s funny VB6 (and at least some versions of VBA IIRC) has these sigils still (and some more like & for Long) 20:07:39 “still” is I mean they haven’t been dropped in VB5, VB4 etc. 20:14:51 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 20:15:20 arseniiv: yes, that's where I complained about VBA a few weeks ago 20:16:11 arseniiv: specifically I was trying to concatenate strings like "foo"&vbCrlf&"bar" but it turns out that doesn't work, you have to write "foo"&vbCrlf &"bar" or else the second & is parsed as a sigil rather than an operator 20:17:42 I didn't even know before that that it had sigils, but it does 20:18:02 you can actually write DIM x% and it will be implicitly an integer 20:18:16 yeah. Although I had luck when I actually used VBA or VB6 20:19:34 it was unlucky on a whole other level — I was using VB6 because I hadn’t got anything else :D 20:21:00 “classes” there even have no inheritance( 20:21:51 arseniiv: did I mention that VBA has dictionaries, but no convenient way to sort anything? 20:22:04 if you have to sort in VBA, you're screwed 20:22:11 and overall the language is too verbose, and IDEs these times had not much autocompletion of statements 20:22:24 oh I haven’t needed to sort, so I didn’t know 20:22:40 dictionaries yes 20:23:34 there were several revelations those times. One was that with right method names, involving underscores and something, you could add an indexer to the class 20:23:47 other was importing WinAPI 20:24:31 though P/Invoke db didn’t exist then. Or it did but I had no internet anyway :D 20:27:31 after VB, I was writing strange code in Delphi 7, some occasional C++ in a console IDE for some uni project and then there came enlightenment including Lua, C#, Python, Haskell and something. Now I know I was doing foolish things when I could be doing something more interesting way earlier( 20:34:01 -!- Melvar has joined. 20:39:30 -!- ep100 has joined. 20:42:06 -!- S_Gautam has changed nick to hey. 20:42:16 -!- hey has changed nick to S_Gautam. 20:44:38 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds). 20:45:20 -!- heroux_ has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 20:53:13 -!- heroux has joined. 20:53:57 -!- heroux_ has joined. 20:54:34 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 21:06:45 -!- MaximusBloo has left. 21:43:16 -!- sleepnap has left. 21:53:35 -!- XorSwap has joined. 22:26:34 -!- sumpfschlock has joined. 22:27:26 -!- sumpfschlock has quit (Client Quit). 22:28:09 -!- sumpfschlock has joined. 22:32:35 -!- sftp has quit (Excess Flood). 22:32:57 -!- sftp has joined. 22:34:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 22:40:03 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 22:40:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 22:47:12 -!- sumpfschlock has quit (Quit: Using Circe, the loveliest of all IRC clients). 22:47:59 -!- Rieselhilfe has joined. 22:48:34 -!- Rieselhilfe has quit (Client Quit). 22:53:54 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 23:04:34 -!- heroux_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:04:34 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:16:38 -!- heroux has joined. 23:17:05 -!- heroux_ has joined. 23:37:23 -!- erkin has joined. 23:37:46 `olist 1138 23:37:47 olist 1138: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 23:39:10 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 23:45:49 `olist 5913 23:45:50 olist 5913: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 23:46:01 incorrect 23:46:15 rain1 is clearly a time traveller 23:58:06 `olist ω+1? 23:58:07 olist ω+1?: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas 23:58:11 ooops 23:59:12 wow! 23:59:35 Can y'all stop pinging people needlessly? 2018-08-30: 00:01:15 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 00:02:34 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 00:16:24 -!- boily has joined. 01:40:26 -!- MDude has joined. 01:47:41 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BREACHING CHICKEN). 02:09:36 -!- ATMunn has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 02:11:15 -!- ATMunn has joined. 03:34:55 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 04:00:17 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 04:02:58 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 05:28:42 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds). 05:29:39 -!- sprocklem has joined. 06:07:52 -!- J_Arcane has joined. 06:36:49 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:56:04 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:40:45 -!- mmmnootka has joined. 07:41:34 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 07:42:43 -!- sprocklem has joined. 08:06:29 -!- mmmnootka has left. 08:16:34 -!- AnotherTest has joined. 08:24:05 -!- ep100 has joined. 08:33:24 -!- subleq has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 08:33:47 -!- subleq has joined. 08:51:43 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 10:24:39 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57493&oldid=57477 * A * (-23) Suddenly discovered that I am not making a new language. 10:28:32 . o O ( shachaf: no! ) 10:30:25 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57494&oldid=57493 * A * (-269) /* Bored? Let's enjoy an example */ 10:32:16 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57495&oldid=57494 * A * (-50) /* Try Again */ 10:32:56 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57496&oldid=57495 * A * (-7) 10:33:36 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57497&oldid=57496 * A * (-6) /* Calling Functions */ 10:34:03 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 10:34:57 [[Lambda Calculus to Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57498&oldid=57497 * A * (-124) /* Anonymous functions */ 10:55:25 Hey guys. What are you all working on? 10:56:26 -!- ep100 has quit (Quit: WeeChat 1.9.1). 10:56:54 -!- ep100 has joined. 11:15:07 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 11:18:28 -!- atslash has joined. 12:36:45 -!- erkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:07:28 -!- sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 13:18:25 -!- xkapastel has joined. 13:22:25 -!- arseniiv has joined. 13:34:15 -!- user24 has joined. 13:42:42 -!- sleepnap has joined. 14:25:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:32:30 @tell boily bood afternoily. that was certainly disturbing. 14:32:30 Consider it noted. 14:38:07 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:01:55 -!- bradcomp has joined. 15:03:56 -!- tigrmesh17 has joined. 15:07:24 -!- tigrmesh17 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:19:49 -!- prawnsalad24 has joined. 15:23:17 -!- LKoen has joined. 15:25:22 -!- prawnsalad24 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 15:34:50 -!- DrJ16 has joined. 15:35:18 -!- DrJ16 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:39:52 -!- fydel has joined. 15:41:43 -!- fydel has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))). 16:00:12 -!- user24 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 16:08:46 -!- izabera has changed nick to offesa. 16:09:39 -!- offesa has changed nick to izabera. 16:13:23 `smlist 481 16:13:23 smlist 481: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale 16:22:42 -!- Napsterbater has joined. 16:25:07 -!- Napsterbater has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:37:18 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving). 16:48:58 -!- ^MillerBoss8 has joined. 16:52:15 -!- ^MillerBoss8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:53:43 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 17:14:30 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 17:16:16 -!- cottongin5 has joined. 17:18:00 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 17:19:11 -!- cottongin5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:23:36 -!- ultrabong has joined. 17:27:59 -!- ultrabong has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:35:11 -!- imode has joined. 17:46:49 -!- atslash has joined. 17:55:10 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds). 18:04:12 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:35:41 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 18:36:23 You know what I'm worried about, guys? 18:37:23 I'm getting lots of different phishing spam, the really bad kind, in the name of the two banks I actually use through their online banking system, and very rarely in the name of any other banks. 18:38:30 The phishing itself is worthless, I'm not going to fall for it. But I'm really trying to not make it easy to find out which two banks I use. I have mentioned the name of one of them in this channel, but very rarely, and not in any way that an automated spambot is likely to connect to me. 18:38:56 Nobody is likely to target me with phishing spam. It's definitely automated spambots in mass quantities that figured out which two banks I use. How do they know? 18:39:05 It's not impossible to find out, but not easy either. 18:39:08 My trick is to have an account with every bank. 18:39:17 shachaf: um... 18:39:21 shachaf: isn't that expensive? 18:40:05 shachaf: sure, it's probably cheap in *most* of the banks, but if you have an account with *every* bank, that's bound to cost you. you're not paying for the median. 18:40:41 -!- ep100 has joined. 18:42:02 Shouldn't the banks be paying me? 18:42:51 they should be paying me honest to god? 18:42:56 shachaf: some of them, sure. but not so much that you win in gross total. 18:43:42 OK, I'll only have accounts with 5-10 banks or something. 18:57:05 shachaf: that's more reasonable. 18:57:14 -!- MDead has joined. 18:57:18 I can believe that, and so can the spambots. 18:59:04 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 18:59:09 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 18:59:44 Spambots don't send me spam from any of those banks, though, I think. 19:00:03 Unless you count spambots operated by the banks themselves, in which case they often send me spam that I can't opt out of. 19:00:26 For example one of them keeps sending me emails about their mobile app, which I already have installed. 19:00:50 They say it's sent as part of our existing business relationship (and so presumably exempt from CAN-SPAM?). 19:07:00 -!- atslash has joined. 19:08:04 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client). 19:09:21 -!- wob_jonas has joined. 19:09:38 shachaf: the spam is not *from* any bank. it's just *in the name* of the bank. and it's a very weak pretense. 19:10:06 shachaf: and yes, I also get a few emails from the bank, but those don't bother me, unlike the phishing sent in their name. 19:18:10 I understand. 19:25:30 -!- MDead has joined. 19:26:47 -!- MDude has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:26:54 -!- MDead has changed nick to MDude. 20:00:06 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: brb). 20:12:39 -!- Karasu has joined. 20:12:54 -!- Karasu has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:14:18 -!- grumble has joined. 20:18:46 -!- arahael10 has joined. 20:19:45 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:19:45 -!- arahael10 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:25:23 -!- Sgeo has joined. 20:27:38 -!- grumble has quit (Quit: grumble). 20:28:08 -!- grumble has joined. 20:31:01 -!- LKoen has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 20:31:28 -!- LKoen has joined. 20:35:58 -!- LKoen has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 20:49:31 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 20:55:10 -!- rorx8 has joined. 20:58:29 -!- rorx8 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:09:05 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:26:34 -!- LKoen has joined. 21:27:07 -!- LKoen has quit (Client Quit). 21:34:49 -!- noonehere4u3 has joined. 21:39:26 -!- noonehere4u3 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 21:40:01 -!- rolig has joined. 21:44:21 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Quit: Leaving). 21:44:45 -!- rolig has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 21:45:37 -!- nfd9001 has joined. 22:19:05 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:03:30 -!- klx``21 has joined. 23:04:36 -!- sleepnap has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 23:05:10 -!- klx``21 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:05:54 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:10:07 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:25:22 -!- Sgeo has quit (Quit: Leaving). 23:25:46 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:26:43 -!- Guest38881 has joined. 23:27:35 -!- Guest38881 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:29:56 -!- Levex has joined. 23:30:05 -!- Levex has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 23:37:06 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:40:13 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:41:29 -!- ekl- has joined. 23:41:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 23:42:18 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 23:44:38 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 23:44:49 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 23:45:42 -!- ekl- has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 2018-08-31: 00:23:19 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 00:26:25 -!- was has joined. 00:27:17 -!- was has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:27:33 -!- S_Gautam has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 00:30:16 -!- TroniQ89 has joined. 00:31:55 -!- TroniQ89 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 00:36:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:47:33 -!- DenSchub22 has joined. 00:50:06 -!- DenSchub22 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 01:09:00 @tell wob_jonas That phishing sounds strange, unless you happen to use the two most common banks in hungary, in which case spammers _might_ do so by accident? 01:09:00 Consider it noted. 01:34:23 -!- genera has joined. 01:39:09 -!- genera has quit (Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))). 01:40:27 -!- Maven_ has joined. 01:42:10 -!- Maven_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 02:12:50 -!- tromp has joined. 02:13:45 -!- bradcomp has joined. 02:17:08 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:20:03 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 02:21:31 -!- bradcomp has joined. 02:26:12 -!- idn has joined. 02:26:16 -!- idn has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 03:05:29 -!- tromp has joined. 03:09:48 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:12:00 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 03:58:27 -!- tromp has joined. 04:02:47 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 04:16:44 -!- Shragazord has joined. 04:19:39 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 04:24:38 -!- Esqapezord has joined. 04:24:49 -!- Shragazord has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 04:34:01 I am not sure what the interface should be in my SQLite graphics extension for making pie charts and stuff like that, considering there are many options that you may wish to set. 04:35:24 Do you know? (I thought they could be aggregate functions, but other than that I don't know how should the options to be put in, and some other stuff) 04:54:21 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite). 05:44:27 -!- tromp has joined. 05:49:18 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 05:59:02 -!- xkapastel has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity). 06:00:53 -!- oldschool^28 has joined. 06:03:24 -!- oldschool^28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 06:25:03 -!- tromp has joined. 06:29:25 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 06:35:37 zzo38: aggregate functions make sense for that. options could be passed as JSON 07:07:35 -!- morsik28 has joined. 07:10:21 -!- SopaXorzTaker has joined. 07:11:43 -!- morsik28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 07:22:27 -!- Esqapezord has quit (Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.). 07:41:05 -!- tromp has joined. 07:46:04 -!- imode has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 08:03:56 -!- nikivi5 has joined. 08:06:45 -!- nikivi5 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 08:13:23 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: the creeping crawling chaos will return.). 08:23:22 -!- ep100 has joined. 09:34:23 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 09:40:23 -!- ep100 has joined. 09:44:43 -!- ep100 has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 10:11:25 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 10:21:31 -!- tromp has joined. 10:38:10 -!- arseniiv has joined. 10:52:15 -!- copumpkin[m] has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 10:54:27 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 10:54:52 -!- atslash has joined. 10:59:45 -!- copumpkin[m] has joined. 11:06:32 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds). 11:07:04 -!- atslash has joined. 11:48:53 -!- xkapastel has joined. 12:11:48 -!- atslash has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer). 12:12:03 -!- atslash has joined. 12:49:40 -!- copumpkin[m] has quit (Write error: Connection reset by peer). 12:57:55 -!- lynn_ has quit. 12:58:12 -!- copumpkin[m] has joined. 12:58:29 -!- lynn has joined. 13:01:19 -!- Napsterbater has joined. 13:06:06 -!- Napsterbater has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 13:36:02 -!- sleepnap has joined. 13:46:10 deltab: OK, JSON could make sense I suppose 14:00:22 (Of course, then I will need a JSON implementation in the extension) 14:01:21 -!- jwhisnant28 has joined. 14:06:51 -!- jwhisnant28 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 14:36:27 It is just the case of having to specify all of the options each time 14:36:56 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 14:38:16 (Also I don't know that I need such thing as nested objects, arrays, etc, for the options anyways) 14:41:27 -!- joast has joined. 14:45:01 -!- atslash has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds). 14:45:27 -!- atslash has joined. 14:47:32 -!- ensyde has joined. 14:50:23 -!- ensyde has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 15:25:44 -!- bradcomp has joined. 16:02:59 -!- imode has joined. 16:10:30 -!- atslash has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep). 16:17:21 -!- junction00 has joined. 16:17:24 -!- nfd9001 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 16:20:12 -!- junction00 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 16:35:56 -!- kaniini_13 has joined. 16:36:40 -!- kaniini_13 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 17:19:21 -!- S_Gautam has joined. 17:53:12 -!- Mony26 has joined. 17:53:55 -!- Mony26 has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 18:00:09 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds). 18:00:24 -!- arseniiv has joined. 18:10:35 -!- arseniiv_ has joined. 18:11:43 -!- arseniiv has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds). 19:38:30 -!- arseniiv has joined. 19:41:04 -!- arseniiv_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds). 19:53:30 -!- SopaXorzTaker has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 19:59:55 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined. 20:06:20 -!- XorSwap has joined. 21:40:26 -!- sleepnap has left. 21:48:27 esolang ideas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogram 22:07:06 zzo38: oh, I was thinking of another dbms with a json type built in (though I see there is a loadable extension for sqlite) 22:08:27 alternatively, another string format, or read options from a table 22:09:05 More options may be added later, and it is not convenient to enter all of the options every time even if changing only some, too 22:18:38 What options do you think are needed? I thought of some, such as axis styles, grid lines, picture size, picture boundary, compositing mode (when you are making a scatter plot of pictures), etc 22:22:57 Should adding axis be a separate function? 22:45:22 -!- joast has quit (Quit: Leaving.). 22:45:47 -!- joast has joined. 23:19:00 -!- tromp has quit (Remote host closed the connection). 23:34:29 -!- bradcomp has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds). 23:38:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:48:20 -!- tromp has joined. 23:52:33 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).