< 1536797203 426633 :wob_jonas!b03f18df@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.223 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536797222 745376 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nbfobjrmnkptjbzr JOIN :#esoteric < 1536797682 508194 :wob_jonas!b03f18df@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :M:tG un-rules question. I Ctyoshape my Adorable Kitten into a Myr Welder, then tap for the imprint ability exiling a ________, then use its newly gained ability to change its name to Firemaw Kavu. < 1536797687 606680 :wob_jonas!b03f18df@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.223 PRIVMSG #esoteric :My next turn, the Adorable Kitten no longer have any of its fancy new abilities, but its name remains Firemaw Kavu and it regains the Host supertype. I then augment that Host with a Serpentine, then does the augmented permanent's name become the same as that of an ordinary Serpentine Kavu, for the purpose of Sever the Bloodline? < 1536797803 390121 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1536797830 74710 :wob_jonas!b03f18df@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.223 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1536798320 823042 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536800174 423809 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.69 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536800174 564085 :iconmaster!~iconmaste@129.21.120.69 QUIT :Client Quit < 1536800212 292752 :pimlu!~pimlu@70-90-173-49-California.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536801118 370883 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536801376 328774 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1536802940 440589 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could something like Core Wars be done on C64... somehow? Load two programs that "fight" each other, somehow? < 1536802946 337972 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure how to define victory < 1536802984 309832 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh hmm the OS doesn't automatically provide multitasking. C64 can preemptively multitask, but that requires software to set up, hmm < 1536802992 411856 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably isn't multithreaded enough < 1536803000 819074 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the programs would just attack the scheduler to get more time < 1536807594 377841 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536807853 400728 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1536807980 429555 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: quit < 1536809713 344758 :pimlu!~pimlu@70-90-173-49-California.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1536810606 878030 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536810877 617708 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536811136 633051 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1536812083 652076 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-scoxgeewwuiudkme QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1536812280 717341 :JWinslow23!62901603@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.144.22.3 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536812340 189881 :JWinslow23!62901603@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.144.22.3 PART :#esoteric < 1536814125 901863 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536814156 425376 :pimlu!~pimlu@70-90-173-49-California.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536814396 888024 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1536814919 473180 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536815012 750814 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's sort of a pity that the SYSV function memset got standardized in ANSI C89 and spread by the second edition K&R book rather than the BSD function bzero. The extra parameter is almost never used and just adds a potential to confuse the order of the last two parameters. < 1536815094 369218 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe C ought to have keyword arguments. < 1536815135 959351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was thinking about what it would take for a vaguely C-like (or C++-like?) language to have functions that only take a single struct/tuple argument. < 1536815145 616373 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there any language that does that well? < 1536815321 516941 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SGeo_: I don't think the 6502 is a good idea for any preemptive multitasking application. 6502 code generally uses the low 512 bytes of memory space because of special addressing modes give conciseness of code for speed and speed, plus also must use self-modifying instructions for some things. Unless you're thinking of a very low memory context lik < 1536815321 694280 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e the ATARI 2600 with the 128 byte of RAM and at most 2K or 4K ROM < 1536815471 295595 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you count languages that also have currying, like standard ML or Haskell? < 1536815618 436483 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: do you count the small underlying core language for Wikiplia, which has ordinary multi-argument function calls, but on the function definition side it only has a variadic lambda builtin, which gets all the arguments on a single list, and you have to unpack arguments from that list with a strange deconsing function that can distinguish betw < 1536815618 727762 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :een all approx. ten builtin datatypes but you can omit the last arms and the first arm is for decoding a cons < 1536815665 148532 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :o.O at Atari 2600 < 1536815674 653834 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of it, didn't realize there was that little RAM < 1536815724 628309 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't really count currying, because I'm imagining something roughly on the level of C with no automatic closures everywhere and so on. < 1536815733 408434 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SGeo_: it also has a less powerful variant of 6502 with the same integrated core but a smaller wiring around it so it only has 12 bits of address space < 1536815743 32285 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I don't think I count that either. < 1536815751 535462 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want, y'know, a calling convention for structs. < 1536815789 281596 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which C already has. At least on the amd64 System V ABI a struct will get unpacked into registers and so on, though I think it's a little different from the calling convention for arguments. < 1536815817 292847 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :"and no video frame buffer at all. The programmer must prepare each line of video output one at a time as it is being sent to the television." < 1536815830 570488 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: in C it wouldn't historically had made sense, because it would have been inefficient, but sure, you could imagine some language that does that, and there probably is one out there, I just don't know a good example < 1536815838 321490 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why wouldn't it have made sense in C? < 1536815839 441703 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think Standard M < 1536815849 448593 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ignore last line < 1536815854 982588 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, other than lack of tuples or type inference or something, if you'd need that. < 1536815858 172572 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :C64 sounds like a huge luxury in comparison... although could you get arbitrary colors in arbitrary pixels on Atari 2600? < 1536815861 309043 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to figure out what you'd need. < 1536815878 610656 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: because it was compiled on small compilers, and the API for passing separate arguments is just more efficient than the API for passing a struct in most calling conventions < 1536815899 833638 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, it wouldn't have made sense quite for C itself, but for a language similar to C. < 1536815911 475778 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except on modern machines in certain cases for very small structs < 1536815928 959794 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where the calling convention for structs is defined the way it's defined for C functions. < 1536815944 444354 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but even then the standard calling convention often misses, so you have to rely on optimization if you want passing structs that aren't just trivial wrappers for a single element efficiently < 1536815984 765223 :Sgeo_!~Sgeo@ool-18b98dd9.dyn.optonline.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, 128 bytes... I guess machine code is run from ROM, instead of being stored in RAM? < 1536815986 92099 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously this wouldn't work in C-as-it-is because things are defined differently. < 1536815993 942017 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for trivial wrappers for a single element, the calling conventions that are new enough to have come after decent optimizing compilers like the x86_64 one do the Right Thing generally, so you don't lose anything over passing its single element < 1536815996 143773 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm wondering about something similar to C. < 1536816008 664446 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for what you want, you need to pass structs bigger than a single element < 1536816078 924320 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's probably an example I'm missing, like some of those functional language models, but I gtg now, sorry < 1536816134 936932 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I think a low-level functional language is more likely to use that < 1536816145 952272 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: there was, I think a low-level pointfree language like that < 1536816146 264634 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You keep answering questions that are vaguely similar to but also completely different from what I'm asking, it seems like. < 1536816152 536969 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll find it later < 1536816155 169974 :wob_jonas!b03f181d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.29 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1536816164 936331 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it means I'm asking the question badly. < 1536816524 849322 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1536817350 491572 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536817580 550210 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536817615 492953 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536817890 492070 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536819264 548881 :pimlu!~pimlu@70-90-173-49-California.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536820500 440498 :pimlu!~pimlu@70-90-173-49-California.hfc.comcastbusiness.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536821064 974097 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536821177 625779 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536821398 79599 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I understand you want a low-level C-like language like that, but a non-esoteric one that's used for real world programming might not exist, because in older compilers, it could be hard to avoid the penalty < 1536821398 826365 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :of creating and decomposing the tuple (although it could perhaps be avoided if you wrote the compiler just right), and in newer compilers, it would not make sense the forego the easy syntactic convenience of multi-argument functions. < 1536821486 915280 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is there easy syntactic convenience? < 1536821492 730520 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that said, I should look up which language it was that was mostly used on paper, not in a computer implementation, but is an old language that's not deliberately esoteric, and is a pointfree lambdaless functional language that enocourages or perhaps even forces you to use tuples to pass multiple args < 1536821520 42063 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If the tuple syntax is (a,b,c) and the application syntax was juxtaposition, then you could write f(a,b,c), just like in C < 1536821567 609154 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: hmm. < 1536821661 497485 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: you need conditionals, but perhaps you could have a built-in ifelse that always takes three arguments (you can't use lazy evaluation if you want this C-like, and you probably can't use lambdas passed to an ifelse either because that is hard to make C-like and probably impossible to avoid extra parenthesis) < 1536821680 845214 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or.... hmm < 1536821690 821754 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a one-variable lambda could work too? < 1536821704 336956 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :still... < 1536821726 985296 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: would you have patterns in the function head like in haskell/ml/prolog to decompose the tuple easily? < 1536821768 456805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :if isn't a function in C, I don't see why it would be one here. < 1536821885 165454 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yeah, that could work. though you'd also probably need something like local variables and possibly sequencing, or something to replace them < 1536822560 721371 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn, I'm sure there's such a language. and it's even somewhat similar to the much newer David Madore's original version of amycus in some ways. < 1536822600 782084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway I was wondering how such a thing would work, especially when you add more details. < 1536822628 473351 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example you probably want to support keyword arguments, which are the same as named struct/tuple members. < 1536822646 246150 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :You maybe want to support varargs of some sort? < 1536822655 969293 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And maybe default arguments though I'm not sold on those. < 1536822712 356920 :pimlu!~pimlu@70-90-173-49-California.hfc.comcastbusiness.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1536822737 702167 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you have struct-style keyword arguments, presumably the function definition site defines a struct and then the call site creates it. < 1536822766 53191 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there are various tricky questions I think? < 1536822779 83617 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems like on the whole it could still be simpler than C, though. < 1536822793 610899 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The basic idea is that the main primitives are what liftM, liftM2, liftM3, liftM4, liftM5 etc do on the (->) instance, but they go up to arbitrary number of arguments, plus functions taking the nth argument of a tuple and composing a tuple, and probably some conditionals too < 1536822837 917361 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the liftM, liftM2, liftM3, ... base is sort of true for both that language I'm looking for and Madore's original Amycus < 1536822878 969480 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only in both, instead of curried functions, they work of single-argument functions that always get a tuple input < 1536822932 789995 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in David's original Amycus, IIRC you only get to call functions with tuples (I'm lazy to look up the rules now), whereas in that other language, you call them directly with one argument, and have to make the tuple yourself < 1536822969 862110 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: anyway, I think passing a tuple instead of using curry is used as a programming style in standard ML because for older compilers it was easier to optimize < 1536823015 760319 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd prefer something that doesn't rely on the optimizer. < 1536823054 587273 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Currying is very complicated, in principle you have to create closures and things only to consume them immediately, and then the optimizer turns it back into the tuple code which you could have written anyway. < 1536823083 710084 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :And if you do apply only some of the arguments, then the closure has to be created, which is probably a hidden memory allocation? < 1536823090 239150 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: sure, now I'm just trying to find that pointfree language for myself, even without your question < 1536823173 484429 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even the standard library prelude of standard ML has some functions that use that convention < 1536823191 124645 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :eg. foldl and foldr both take a callback that takes a 2-tuple < 1536823248 679092 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but for some other things it uses currying: foldl and foldr itself takes the callback, the initial value, and the list as three curried arguments < 1536823262 750902 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the other functions are also similarly inconsistent < 1536823358 557467 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :mind you, there are only a few functions in the prelude where that makes a difference: the rest either have infix syntax so you rarely see the tuple explicitly written, or take only one argument and no callback with multiple arguments, so neither currying nor tuples come up < 1536823759 441587 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wtf? how is there no mention of "pointfree" anywhere on the wiki, even though we have articles for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKI_combinator_calculus and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B,_C,_K,_W_system < 1536823841 192530 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I must have mistyped the word < 1536823844 850418 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is < 1536823869 838585 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacit_programming and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-free < 1536823990 722062 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :"the wiki" is Wikipedia now? < 1536824008 406655 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah no sorry < 1536824017 490828 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm searching the wrong thing now < 1536824029 897995 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn < 1536824038 205654 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't notice at first beacuse they're both white < 1536824061 614758 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: petition to make esolangs.org lime green < 1536824068 86402 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :have the same style < 1536824077 441352 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean same visual style theme < 1536824092 670280 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that case the orignal statements stands, there's no match for pointfree on the wiki < 1536824123 377194 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently I got there from esowiki by an external link < 1536824190 492812 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdn9kx2rnn81vw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1536824195 622738 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57574&oldid=45435 5* 03B jonas 5* (+34) 10/* External resources */ > 1536824233 291338 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57575&oldid=57574 5* 03B jonas 5* (+67) 10/* Alternative Primitives */ > 1536824436 941046 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57576&oldid=57575 5* 03B jonas 5* (+65) 10BCKW > 1536824540 750070 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57577&oldid=57576 5* 03B jonas 5* (+6) 10/* Non-primitives */ < 1536824589 493058 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdn9kx2rnn81vw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds > 1536824763 502398 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57578&oldid=57577 5* 03B jonas 5* (+71) 10/* External resources */ < 1536824981 904861 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, the u-szeged kk got a completely different homepage and catalog now, with some of the old links broken, specifically the ones to the catalog, although at least http://ww2.bibl.u-szeged.hu/ redirects < 1536825358 476696 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric > 1536825798 427595 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57579&oldid=8031 5* 03B jonas 5* (+299) 10 > 1536825839 261983 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57580&oldid=57579 5* 03B jonas 5* (+120) 10/* Keywords */ < 1536826795 479138 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be JOIN :#esoteric > 1536827186 316012 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57581 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1813) 10create article > 1536828426 537421 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57582&oldid=57578 5* 03B jonas 5* (+707) 10expand BCKI, point to new pointfree article > 1536829523 804744 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57583&oldid=57582 5* 03B jonas 5* (+372) 10more BCKW vs SKI > 1536829544 147085 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57584&oldid=57583 5* 03B jonas 5* (-1) 10/* BCKW calculus */ > 1536829709 733878 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57585&oldid=57584 5* 03B jonas 5* (-8) 10/* See also */ > 1536829760 180254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Combinatory logic14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57586&oldid=57585 5* 03B jonas 5* (+15) 10/* See also */ > 1536829860 848312 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57587&oldid=57581 5* 03B jonas 5* (+34) 10link functional < 1536830102 594436 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :DARN IT < 1536830106 64226 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sry < 1536830129 542570 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: you OK? < 1536830146 516355 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I found the tuple-based pointfree functional language I was looking for: it's linked right from the [[Amycus]] article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FP_(programming_language) > 1536830307 180724 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57588&oldid=57587 5* 03B jonas 5* (-48) 10 < 1536830337 908056 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: that's the one that only has single-argument functions and you must use tuples < 1536830415 25318 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, but the fact that you can use tuples to make single-argument functions work isn't interesting. < 1536830424 454176 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is also how math functions works. < 1536830425 619734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :work < 1536830469 848154 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :The interesting part is making it work in a low-level language with respect to types and memory layout and so on. < 1536830533 199736 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still editing the wiki a bit < 1536830543 306359 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: right < 1536830601 339631 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is still interesting for me because it gives one of the simpler models for a pointfree functional language with multi-argument functions, whereas SKI calculus and BCKW calculus give that with curried functions < 1536830608 295839 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1536830672 826416 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :FP gives a model with tuples and single-argument functions, the language Amycus was supposed to be gives a simple model for multi-argument functions (if you ignore the arithmetic part), and what I said above for curried functinos < 1536830865 214054 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Functions + tuples is more complicated than just functions, of course. > 1536830915 253344 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57589 5* 03B jonas 5* (+2944) 10Created page with "'''The language Amycus was supposed to be''' is simple Turing-equivalent programming language defined by [[David Madore]] in [http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16...." < 1536830968 310340 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: yes, but curried functions are also more complicated than just functions, and multi-argument functions are more complicated than just functions < 1536830977 903969 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so neither is obviously simpler than the others > 1536831589 781209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57590&oldid=57589 5* 03B jonas 5* (+2951) 10 > 1536831880 706147 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57591&oldid=52397 5* 03B jonas 5* (+147) 10 < 1536831985 377933 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: Is the lime not green already? < 1536831997 764734 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean make the background lime green. < 1536832001 921214 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a bad idea hth < 1536832012 575979 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it would help people not confuse it with wikipedia > 1536832082 581383 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57592&oldid=57591 5* 03B jonas 5* (+172) 10 < 1536832145 421111 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make the sidebar a shade of lime? < 1536832198 149279 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: Oh, are you at the categories summer school in Amsterdam this week? < 1536832214 651164 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I am not, I'm afraid < 1536832227 487243 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't realise there was one < 1536832238 494681 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, it's a summer school in algebra and topology. The thing only said "categories" because it was on the categories mailing list. < 1536832286 888300 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also it's not in Amsterdam? < 1536832298 430936 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess the thing my friend went to in Amsterdam wasn't the thing I had on my calendar. < 1536832393 728854 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I'm definitely not at the categories summer school in Amsterdam that isnt about categories and isn't in Amsterdam < 1536832406 917423 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :how can you tell you aren't > 1536832437 668656 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07David Madore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57593&oldid=52889 5* 03B jonas 5* (+263) 10 > 1536832486 923238 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07(0)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57594&oldid=52919 5* 03B jonas 5* (+2) 10/* with arrays */ < 1536832506 398941 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm presuming it's still a summer school < 1536832513 208674 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :...it's not even summer any more < 1536832564 208061 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :look < 1536832566 567016 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mistakes were made > 1536832616 325654 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07(0)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57595&oldid=57594 5* 03B jonas 5* (+27) 10/* with arrays */ < 1536832631 518768 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Taneb: anyway you should go < 1536832639 22101 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :and say hi to my friend? < 1536832651 244654 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :she probably isn't even there < 1536832660 735422 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :man < 1536832673 414887 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? categories < 1536832674 455986 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :categories? ¯\(°​_o)/¯ < 1536832677 395501 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? category < 1536832678 583040 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes. < 1536832694 592247 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`dowg category < 1536832696 669086 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :6118:2015-10-22 le/rn category/A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes. \ 6030:2015-09-24 le/rn category/A category is just a category object in the category of classes. \ 5138:2014-11-16 revert 5134 \ 5135:2014-11-16 find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 grep -El \'(is|are) just\' | xargs rm \ 2611:2013-04-05 revert \ 2610:2013-04-05 lea < 1536832711 538898 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? monoidal category < 1536832712 841359 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object. < 1536832730 264187 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? tanebventions: maths < 1536832731 643058 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, string diagrams, linear logic, the reals, Lambek's lemma, Curry's paradox, Stone spaces, algebraic geometry, locales, and histograms. < 1536832745 992795 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`? histogram < 1536832747 151862 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them. < 1536832803 639492 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`learn Cryptography is the practice of charting crypto prices. < 1536832810 510732 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't bring myself to put that in wisdom < 1536832854 442581 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`owrjan < 1536832855 710767 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your omnidryad saddle principal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. < 1536832886 374186 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :`swrjan s/g/ideal g/ < 1536832889 310817 :HackEso!~h@techne.zem.fi PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan//Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it. < 1536833790 947275 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SQL question. I have a table l with column m that has a small domain and column e that is ordered (has timestamps). I have an input number ?n, and assuming that ?n is greater than the domain of m, < 1536833836 337871 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I want to exactly ?n rows such that the row from each value of m with the latest e is alwasy shown, and other rows are added so they have the latest e all around. What's an easy way to do this in SQL? < 1536834059 555853 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's something like SELECT mm.* FROM (SELECT * FROM l ORDER BY l.t DESC LIMIT ?n UNION some query here to select the latest row from each group) AS ll ORDER BY ll.m, ll.t ASC LIMIT ?n; < 1536834229 855702 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess that part after the UNION could be SELECT * FROM l WHERE l.e = MAX(l.e) GROUP BY l.m < 1536834236 814189 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ll.t should be ll.e instead above > 1536834307 531111 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57596&oldid=57588 5* 03Plokmijnuhby 5* (+23) 10Corrected the link to Joy < 1536834338 24230 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But there might be a simpler way < 1536834897 334131 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Different question, also more practical than esoteric. You have a plastic food container of whose bottom half is filled with rice, then on that are two flat pieces of meat each of which have a size and shape to almost completely fill the horizontal cross-section of the container, then some air over that. You can use the container, its lid (which is < 1536834897 471180 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric : thus only a bit smaller in area than the meat slices), a knife and a fork to move and slice the meat. < 1536834988 969363 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You don't want to use a plate. You can only cut the meat if it's on the lid, and only if there's nothing over it, or if you cut it together with what's over it. Is there a practical way to rearrange and eat all of this such that in each step you first eat a small amount of rice, then a small amount of meat, each time the same amount, and at a rate < 1536834989 103233 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you run out of rice and meat at the same step. < 1536835099 554811 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm no, I defined that in a too easy way. < 1536835137 912681 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't exclude the case when you just cut the two slices of meat together put onto each other all the time, but that's not actually practical. > 1536835722 838477 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07(0)14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57597&oldid=57595 5* 03B jonas 5* (+31) 10clarify definition of (0) < 1536838489 408027 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536838803 414515 :atslash!~atslash@broadband-46-188-0-82.2com.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1536838814 251676 :atslash!~atslash@static.231.107.9.5.clients.your-server.de JOIN :#esoteric > 1536838957 744652 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07David Madore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57598&oldid=57593 5* 03B jonas 5* (+83) 10 > 1536838979 577021 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07David Madore14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57599&oldid=57598 5* 03B jonas 5* (+0) 10 > 1536839051 942635 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57600&oldid=57590 5* 03B jonas 5* (+952) 10 < 1536840091 835196 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric < 1536840942 345917 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, so make esolangs.org (lime green), not make (esolangs.org lime) green. < 1536841752 370315 :arseniiv!~arseniiv@94.41.80.207.dynamic.ufanet.ru JOIN :#esoteric < 1536842587 610734 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the esolangs.org lime should not be green < 1536842600 416249 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :(why is there a lime?) < 1536843158 476273 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's symbolic. < 1536843164 55344 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also the proper term is "trilime". < 1536843184 986378 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1536843271 306024 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once made https://gamma.zem.fi/~fis/trilime.svg as a potential more abstract replacement, but it was not popular. < 1536843294 257900 :Taneb!~Taneb@runciman.hacksoc.org PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think squares are particularly esoteric < 1536843295 367933 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's not use svg stuff for this < 1536843375 703751 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the idea was to cut down on file size. < 1536843389 551517 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it'd be smaller rendered as PNG too. < 1536843421 974886 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but a png for the same quares would be pretty tiny too, even more so if you aligned some of the edges to pixel boundaries, but even without that png compresses this stuff pretty well, and crucially, < 1536843437 908050 :fizzie!fis@unaffiliated/fizzie PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's what I meant. < 1536843550 792179 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the png is much more friendly on browser performance, because an SVG has to be stored as heavy objects in browser memory just like any other part of the DOM, because anything in the SVG can be potentially modified by javascript, or even if there's no javascript, the SVG has to be rerendered if CSS computed values change because of reflowing during < 1536843550 927433 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rendering the page or some element loading or the user interacting with the page. < 1536843562 455690 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why I hate SVGs in webpages. < 1536843572 721270 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're not independent vector graphics files that just get rendered once. < 1536843587 968145 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're heavy objects just like anything with lots of nested HTML elements. < 1536843640 225186 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or just like mathML, but for mathML, you do want the reflowing to happen, whereas for vector graphics you just want it rendered once to a fixed size just like images are typically rendered. < 1536843738 442353 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And this is why I passionately hate SVG. It's not a bad format to represent and exchange vector images, but for embedding a final image in a webpage, it's horrible. Canvases are much better, because they only have to keep the pixel image buffer in RAM, which you generally want to keep for any rendered image anyawy. < 1536843747 218825 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And that buffer can be kept in video RAM.) < 1536843783 30965 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So please, in the name of people like me who use low-performance computers with too little RAM and these horrible modern memory-hungry browsers, I ask you to not use SVGs. > 1536844354 161364 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57601&oldid=57600 5* 03B jonas 5* (+3878) 10how to program, first part < 1536844603 290359 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm writing the article for the language Amycus was supposed to be. Then in theory I should merge some of the improvements on notation (renamings) into the Amycus article. < 1536844607 934863 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-cpyhmalkvosonodk JOIN :#esoteric > 1536844901 290159 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57602&oldid=57601 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1140) 10 > 1536845675 776518 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57603&oldid=57602 5* 03B jonas 5* (+323) 10fix arithmetic > 1536846405 10737 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57604&oldid=57603 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1181) 10 > 1536846414 627340 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57605&oldid=57592 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1) 10notation > 1536846695 875447 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57606&oldid=57605 5* 03B jonas 5* (+0) 10 > 1536846770 586521 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus Severus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57607&oldid=46673 5* 03B jonas 5* (-1136) 10notation, interpreter moved away to [[the language Amycus was supposed to be]] > 1536846807 679040 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57608&oldid=57604 5* 03B jonas 5* (+145) 10 < 1536846958 725909 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, if I document multiple language variants on one page, like on [[The language Amycus was supposed to be]], and some of them are implemented but some are unimplemented, and some of them are Turing-equivalent but some are so much more powerful that they are unimplementable, then can I put the page into multiple contradictory categories? > 1536846999 907418 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Pointfree programming14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57609&oldid=57596 5* 03B jonas 5* (-15) 10 < 1536847031 657559 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed JOIN :#esoteric > 1536847231 167254 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57610&oldid=57608 5* 03B jonas 5* (+477) 10categories > 1536847667 747991 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57611&oldid=57610 5* 03B jonas 5* (-427) 10 > 1536847670 221349 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Amycus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57612&oldid=57606 5* 03B jonas 5* (+1) 10 > 1536847735 43975 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57613&oldid=57611 5* 03B jonas 5* (-24) 10 > 1536848538 819712 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Hyperamycus14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57614&oldid=45511 5* 03B jonas 5* (+176) 10Hyperamycus is now David's original language, based on [[the language Amycus was supposed to be]], not on [[Amycus]]. The extension of [[Amycus]] wasn't documented or used for anything anyway. > 1536850456 221889 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The language Amycus was supposed to be14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57615&oldid=57613 5* 03B jonas 5* (+5) 10 < 1536852022 527063 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I think there's a stupid bug in David Madore's definition of Hyperamycus. I sent him a comment asking what exact definition he meant. When he'll reply, I'll be able to clarify in our Hyperamycus article. < 1536852242 366863 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 JOIN :#esoteric < 1536855915 327925 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536856521 359704 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@natx-145.kulnet.kuleuven.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536857389 451843 :wob_jonas!25bf3cd1@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.37.191.60.209 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client < 1536858027 512378 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1536858477 217683 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536858624 23579 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Quit: Leaving < 1536858859 17269 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536859055 400161 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1536859294 808472 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1536859390 577763 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536859495 534919 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be JOIN :#esoteric < 1536859961 544755 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds > 1536860135 555895 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07ESOPUNK/Commands14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57616&oldid=57549 5* 03Blacksilver 5* (+326) 10LIFECYCLE heading < 1536860301 477193 :john_metcalf!~digital_w@host81-136-81-240.range81-136.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1536861621 659338 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1536861924 249554 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536862686 952497 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds < 1536862966 536921 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536863305 361458 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds < 1536863422 915459 :contrapumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin QUIT :Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz… < 1536863460 523534 :copumpkin!~copumpkin@haskell/developer/copumpkin JOIN :#esoteric < 1536863791 408224 :myname!~myname@ks300980.kimsufi.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1536865175 308453 :quintopia!~quintopia@unaffiliated/quintopia JOIN :#esoteric < 1536865567 461672 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1536867997 822402 :S_Gautam!uid286066@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nbfobjrmnkptjbzr QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity < 1536868034 341278 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :To compromise between a voiced alveolar fricative and a voiced velar stop, I propose that 'gif' be pronounced with a voiced velar fricative < 1536868053 65905 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ɣɪf/ < 1536868634 527718 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :although a /gɣɪf/ sounds like a terrible thing < 1536869009 357685 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer < 1536869448 952764 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a JOIN :#esoteric < 1536869449 87325 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@2a02:c7d:485a:3300:fb8b:fb15:c1d3:a33a QUIT :Changing host < 1536869449 87372 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric < 1536870273 754254 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Man, I can barely tell velar and uvular fricatives apart. < 1536870684 624821 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :\oren\: Did you fix your build system? < 1536870911 988798 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: uh, a bit? < 1536870926 778479 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :but more things were added so it still takes over 12 hours < 1536871603 48119 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest that 12 seconds is too long. < 1536871671 17645 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: lol < 1536871714 469140 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean that seriously hth < 1536872984 855529 :LKoen!~LKoen@vbo91-6-78-245-243-132.fbx.proxad.net QUIT :Quit: “It’s only logical. First you learn to talk, then you learn to think. Too bad it’s not the other way round.” < 1536872994 764880 :ineiros_!ineiros@kapsi.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 268 seconds < 1536873325 314885 :\oren\!~oren@ec2-52-2-213-98.compute-1.amazonaws.com PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://i.redditmedia.com/cD3bDx4ojOYobUyjYSXbGtELbjom6DaIeY6QnJEiBMw.png?s=0fa076c287fa00eebea104cab8bb9a6d < 1536873434 438248 :ineiros!ineiros@kapsi.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1536873694 550385 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@d51A46C74.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 244 seconds < 1536874195 303292 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536875427 913997 :sleepnap!~thomas@2603:3015:260e:1900::13ed PART :#esoteric > 1536876242 220033 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Great Spell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57617&oldid=52545 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (-38) 10 < 1536876304 299385 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 246 seconds > 1536876401 987178 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07The Great Spell14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57618&oldid=57617 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+118) 10 < 1536876624 918539 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting < 1536876973 397473 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536878803 622544 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536880157 881841 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Remote host closed the connection < 1536880713 985593 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536881010 800969 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 272 seconds < 1536881253 393955 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds < 1536882099 149538 :MDude!~MDude@c-73-187-225-46.hsd1.pa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536882467 489571 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@38.104.142.186 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds < 1536882694 398329 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1536882953 357943 :tromp!~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds