< 1537660854 691892 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
< 1537660901 572459 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537661092 348329 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537661146 920188 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :@messages-loud
< 1537661147 222969 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas said 1d 29m 47s ago: Do you want to design a feature phone with good interface? If you made a serious commitment, then I'd volunteer my time to give detailed specs for the parts of the UI
< 1537661147 312317 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :that matter to me, and volunteer my time to test the phone in any state, whether it's early or late, and give feedback. I think I'm a reasonable tester.
< 1537661147 401412 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas said 1d 28m 51s ago: Note that I don't volunteer for testing a version control system, because testing a VCS is a daunting hard problem, way over my testing abilities, and even specifying
< 1537661147 401472 :lambdabot!~lambdabot@haskell/bot/lambdabot PRIVMSG #esoteric :the expected semantics has really hard problems in it.
< 1537661197 691170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I don't think I can reasonably make a serious commitment to anything extra at this point, I'm finding it hard enough just to keep up with my existing projects even cycling through them and putting some into indefinitely-delayed status
< 1537661202 133630 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the idea is interesting though
< 1537661293 7277 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't have to be now. the version control system isn't now either, nor are the ayacc improvements or the aimake3
< 1537661301 753366 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they can all wait
< 1537661310 148260 :Gottaname22!~Gottaname@173.225.242.100 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537661322 84562 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't expect you to do this, I'm just trying to grab any thin chance
< 1537661340 552840 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean aimake4?
< 1537661347 536874 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :aimake3 is what NH4 uses at the moment
< 1537661473 998705 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: aimake4 then
< 1537661487 953732 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of these you might never make
< 1537661499 655844 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not the one with infinite time for projects like zzo38
< 1537661509 585265 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 80-90% of the time when I can get around to doing programming at the moment I spend on my day job
< 1537661527 501628 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :half the time I just don't seem to have the energy to do anything creative, I just consume, and it's really annoying
< 1537661564 206502 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah. it's much worse for me. I feel like I can barely get anything hobby done.
< 1537661596 454602 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's probably also worth a disclaimer that my idea of a good interface is often very different from everyone else's :-D
< 1537661678 372089 :Gottaname22!~Gottaname@173.225.242.100 QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1537661719 613758 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Did you see my question about languages without lvalues? Seems like the sort of thing you'd know about.
< 1537661738 846223 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: no, I haven't fully logread yet
< 1537661740 958626 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: sure.
< 1537661744 574851 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was just skimming and haven't even skimmed the whole thing
< 1537661777 728584 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and in the case of aimake, that difference means I'd never use the thing. I can see why you need it for nethack in particular, but that's a difficult project.
< 1537661797 697929 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and as for uncursed, you made it for nethack too, that shaped its interface.
< 1537661815 94812 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ayacc, you were following an existing interface mostly
< 1537661824 440368 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :what difference? the way I view interface?
< 1537661832 147266 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also uncursed1's interface is /very/ similar to that of curses
< 1537661843 96813 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right, because that's what's useful for nethack
< 1537661876 766694 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: the difference is that you want aimake to figure out all the messed up dependency loop on itself, by inspecting the symbols in the binaries and all that sort of black magic.
< 1537661883 848025 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't want such a make system for sane projects.
< 1537661892 132215 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you said you used it for new projects too
< 1537661896 458315 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not *only* for nethack
< 1537661901 933002 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you actually seem to like that black magic
< 1537661974 159437 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like ayacc, but it has mostly yacc's interface, with some improvements
< 1537661981 180239 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might use ayacc in the future
< 1537661997 580349 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I had already liked yacc before I ever saw ayacc
< 1537662025 239208 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I hate how people abuse rec-descent parser generators and think it's a silver bullet
< 1537662033 303921 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :they come up with terrible syntax
< 1537662051 578724 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ayacc helps you ke
< 1537662056 527719 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ep syntax sane
< 1537662062 947154 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :by forcing it to be LR
< 1537662201 906734 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: and in several of your esolangs, your idea of the interface is that you don't provide a concrete syntax, you give the semantics and tell what information will have to be specified in the program and input (Incident is one of the exceptions)
< 1537662218 311819 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that I think is one way of thinking of a user interface, and I have no problem with it
< 1537662243 122884 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: git's bad interface is a problem, but low-level stuff for which I can make my own interface suits me normally
< 1537662266 684669 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm a computer guy, I can work with making my own interface that is shaped what I like
< 1537662277 243098 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even for git I have custom aliases
< 1537662286 823225 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like the black magic in aimake because it's something that a computer should be able to do better than a human
< 1537662295 123748 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, /I'm/ no good at it
< 1537662323 272509 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: build systems are hard, and everyone has different ideas about it. I don't like any of them.
< 1537662342 958578 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I know it's a genuinely hard problem. I don't even know what a good build system would look like.
< 1537662350 905078 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have ideas about that are good.
< 1537662354 236805 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But they're incomplete.
< 1537662358 607962 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :note even as much as for the vcs, where I have ideas which might be contradictory
< 1537662365 403845 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :One day I'll figure out how to do it.
< 1537662365 859844 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, mutually incompatible
< 1537662380 444391 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't think I need a build system, not for my projects
< 1537662381 638956 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: What do you think of bazel-style build systems?
< 1537662390 150787 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: I have no idea what bazel-style means
< 1537662399 630978 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use shell scripts. Each source file contains the commands to compile itself, and then if the program has multiple modules that needs to be put together, that will be another shell script to put all of them together. (For example, look at what is done in Free Hero Mesh.)
< 1537662415 30900 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: In the style of Google's build system, bazel.
< 1537662431 25390 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which Facebook cloned and called Buck, and Twitter cloned and called Pants, and some other people also cloned.)
< 1537662470 140672 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is build system of Free Hero Mesh:  http://zzo38computer.org/fossil/heromesh.ui/artifact/5fc19466c4f1bbc5
< 1537662517 907318 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: I have some ideas of what a good build system /isn't/
< 1537662520 95019 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. it isn't imperative
< 1537662531 931418 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: oh, ideas of what it isn't are easy
< 1537662535 835718 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1537662538 328094 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that lets you narrow things down
< 1537662548 193837 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the imperative format of Windows installers makes it very hard to get uninstalling right
< 1537662555 398495 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: there are lots of existing build systems, work with a big project that uses any of them and you'll notice why the build system is unsuitable for that project
< 1537662561 122581 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've done that several times
< 1537662603 284921 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the build system was chosen by others, which is fine for me because luckiliy they also maintained the build system configuration, I only had to report to them that it's not working
< 1537662645 495380 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think C-INTERCAL's build system is unsuitable for it
< 1537662664 790934 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :at one point, the build system actually didn't know about a necessary build order dependence, but apparently nobody else complained that sometimes when you do a clean build at the wrong moon phase, you have to rerun the build process after an error
< 1537662665 831535 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except inasmuch as it's unsuitable for anything
< 1537662678 616753 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/dependence/dependency/
< 1537662708 613369 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the middle part is that the build order was nondeterministic, and sometimes incorrect, building against the dependency that would have been required, so the compilation either failed or used an old version of the object file
< 1537662725 348410 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a clean build it failed, but people are lazy and don't want to wait for a clean build
< 1537662733 264040 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a clean build took a lot ot fime
< 1537662734 968154 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :time
< 1537662737 516533 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: this is why I wrote aimake1
< 1537662746 47732 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: right
< 1537662754 65700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I had this sort of screwup in NH4 and couldn't find it
< 1537662761 438033 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :back then I was more productive, a build system only took about 24 hours or so to write
< 1537662817 240384 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, in *that* case, the problem wasn't the build system, the problem was that whoever configured it worked *around* the build system. there was actually a good practice on how to use the build system, and if they did that, everything would have been easier. but no, they worked it around with custom rules.
< 1537662881 100473 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :rules that made the system worked incorrectly when if they had just used what the build system already provided, almost none of those custom rules would have been necessary, and they could not have forgotten a dependency, because the build system would know it automatically from the other configuration, when they tell the build system what to link 
< 1537662881 189434 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with what, instead of working it around
< 1537662904 853659 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then the devs doing that were young and had to learn.
< 1537662994 194380 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe a better way might be one program takes from stdin several lines of a format like "file : dependencies : command" and if any of the dependencies are newer or if the file does not exist, execute that command; if the return code is nonzero or if the file still does not exist or still older than some dependencies then it fails. And then you can call it from a shell script with a heredoc.
< 1537663005 24348 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :Would that be better?
< 1537663102 325053 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: for git, my main trick is an alias called git switch, which calls checkout with a double-dash after the argument so it can only switch to a different HEAD but never do the other thing git checkout does, and also prints the previous HEAD before that
< 1537663217 979170 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I also have some aliases for (git status -bs "$@") and (git log --topo-order -c --name-status "$@") and (git log --topo-order -c -p "$@")
< 1537663237 159170 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for (git diff --staged "$@")
< 1537663261 306613 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's a few more but those are less generally useful
< 1537663325 751593 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I figured out that the git worktree feature is very useful
< 1537663399 352875 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :SVN not providing enough low-level hooks also bothers me.
< 1537663463 397454 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :One particular example is this, for sparse checkouts. The working tree has a trit of status for every directory checked out, which tells how new files in that directory downstream from the repo will be treated when you update the directory.
< 1537663583 172789 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :The state of that trit can be "infinity" which means that everything will be checked out recursively and every subdirectory will have its state set to "infinity", the "empty" state means that new files won't be checked out on an update, and the "immediates" means that files and subdirectories will be checked out but the contents of those new subdir
< 1537663583 350183 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ectories won't and their status will be set "empty".
< 1537663599 167402 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(There's actually a fourth state, "files", but that's irrelevant now.)
< 1537663617 125061 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the problem is, with the command-line interface, you can't directly change the state of a directory without side effects.
< 1537663679 95555 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can use svn up --set-depth=infinity to set the state to infinity, but that has the side effect of checking out every existing file under the directory recursively. If it doesn't have a local copy of such a file yet, then it has to be downloaded.
< 1537663694 978678 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Oops I forgot, if a file itself has dependencies, also check if those dependencies need resolved too)
< 1537663759 288596 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can later fix all that by excluding some of the checked out files or setting their depth, in a depth-last order, but you still waste a lot of unnecessary bandwidth and disk space, which defeats one of the main uses of sparse checkouts.
< 1537663822 440007 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Similarly but less bad is reducing the state to "empty" or "files", which has the side effect of uncheckouting all the existing files recursively too, except for the immediate children for "files".
< 1537663911 340712 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Also, if a filename is in brackets then it is not a real file, but rather is internal and if it believes it can compile and and the command is executed successfully then it is now satisfied, but initially it isn't)
< 1537663919 868638 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lowering the state is better than raising, because you can at least check out any files you want again without redownloading, a pristine copy still remains in the cache of the working copy until you run a certain command to clean them up,
< 1537663931 571745 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still it's a nuisance because you have to do the checkouts again.
< 1537663959 369626 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :So setting the states for new files requires you to issue a complicated set of commands recursively for all descendant files in the worst case.
< 1537663986 70808 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't yet checked if the C api can do better, I will look, but in at least one other case even the C api was limited.
< 1537664051 460187 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it gets much worse if you combine sparse checkout with modules (externals, like git submodule)
< 1537664196 768006 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: in the Incident lexer, if the program is "ab", then is the empty string that occurs three times a token?
< 1537664224 258082 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: no
< 1537664231 630731 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonempty tokens only
< 1537664233 74438 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537664233 163457 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever, though
< 1537664236 771030 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also I don't think this could ever matter)
< 1537664249 268367 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually might it output a few bits?
< 1537664289 221385 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523
< 1537664299 821354 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: how does execution start in Incident? which command runs first and what's the state of the stack?
> 1537664319 607791 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57718&oldid=57693 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (-23) 10
< 1537664321 456578 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, I should read the full description in the calesyta submission, not the wiki page
< 1537664326 114385 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it tells the complete rules
< 1537664335 207200 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan
< 1537664341 661078 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: start of the program; each command has its own stack, initially empty
> 1537664399 618476 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57719&oldid=57718 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+1) 10
< 1537664415 521361 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what does "start of the program" mean? the first command in the source?
< 1537664425 716676 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :to me "start of the program" is tautological
< 1537664439 989737 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it means however the language starts the program
> 1537664445 843247 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57720&oldid=57719 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+0) 10
< 1537664455 215802 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :which could be in main in C (though actually it does a few things before main)
> 1537664478 352492 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57721&oldid=57720 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+4) 10
> 1537664498 763349 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57722&oldid=57721 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+7) 10
< 1537664597 681798 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, this is an esolang. For all I know it could, say, start at some command where the second occurence is close to the third but the first occurance is very far, maybe the command with the highest ratio of distances is taken with some tie-breakers or something.
< 1537664605 31594 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :counting in token occurences of course, not in bytes
< 1537664646 436634 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Execution of an Incident program starts with the first command incidence in the sequence of commands that the program was parsed into"
< 1537664652 78261 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: leftmost end of hte program
< 1537664656 540634 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(from the report) yeah
< 1537664658 925753 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I found it
< 1537664676 36769 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that language is devilish
> 1537664695 233967 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Chipish14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57723 5* 03Galaxtone 5* (+3234) 10Thrown together something quickly, needs some work.
< 1537664701 447340 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a pity that calesyta disappeared like the bancstar interpreter
> 1537664759 504497 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Chipish14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57724&oldid=57723 5* 03Galaxtone 5* (-1) 10All better.
< 1537665244 738224 :ep100!~max@105.229.116.167 QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1537665281 787591 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you ever wonder if it was your language that they didn't cope with, and that's why they disappeared? or are you more psychologically stable than to even consider that?
< 1537665304 557916 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: if they can't cope with my languages they shouldn't be running an esolang competition :-D
< 1537665322 240367 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yeah
< 1537665639 313570 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, that reminds me
< 1537665673 58702 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you said you're busy, that means you haven't had time to write more than those two pages of the M:tG turing machine construction, right?
< 1537665681 859226 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one based on the tournament deck
< 1537665688 802091 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: yes
< 1537665693 783325 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although that's not based on busyness
< 1537665706 29252 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much as needing a program as an example and not being sure what to put there
< 1537665728 778684 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's missing more than just a program as an example, isn't it?
< 1537665730 160838 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it should ideally be formally undecidable, and less ideally, something where we don't know what the result is
< 1537665736 643641 :Essadon!~Essadon@81-225-32-185-no249.tbcn.telia.com QUIT :Quit: Qutting
< 1537665758 339375 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the M:tG tournament rules changed recently, under the new rules the game is infinitely long and players get slow play warnings until they're disqualified
< 1537665822 664080 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Making a golflang. It's getting somewhere. No interpreter yet, but i've defined about 400 of all 1024 instructions, so i'm doing attempts on some codegolf problems to try it out
< 1537665891 799307 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :meanwhile, I was in my elements in the last few days, trying my hands at manipulation, evil lord style. I don't know if it will be successful, but I sure enjoyed it. I explained about it before you entered the channel.
< 1537665903 786584 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :shachaf: about the turing machine?
< 1537665920 341620 :shachaf!~shachaf@unaffiliated/shachaf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Turing machine?
< 1537665920 518868 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, ignore that line
< 1537665989 612746 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: also, I was golfing SVG. not quite golfing, I can spare a few characters, but I was reducing its size signidicantly while trying to keep the rendered appearance the same at any zoom level in the particular bounding boxes of the views used.
< 1537666005 375545 :GoMaD_!~GoMaD_@184.170.59.167 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537666013 467705 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the easy part was removing objects that weren't in the viewports I used. but even then the SVG was too long.
< 1537666019 876092 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then I did black magic.
< 1537666041 748109 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hand-optimized it by replacing some objects with clones and transformed clones of other objects
< 1537666049 782225 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and recolored clones too
< 1537666071 457903 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, colored clones technically, it's cloning an object that inherits the fill from the parent)
< 1537666087 110573 :GoMaD_!~GoMaD_@184.170.59.167 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1537666087 376799 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I'm making a golflang atm too!
< 1537666092 871616 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like Brachylog but its syntax annoys me so much
< 1537666097 921163 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I'm trying to make one that's similar but has a golfier syntax
< 1537666102 286238 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what?
< 1537666108 197220 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU'RE making a golflang?
< 1537666119 7898 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have had enough of Jelly?
< 1537666120 140758 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :great
< 1537666128 782587 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jelly's fine
< 1537666132 530478 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's not revolutionary
< 1537666136 824619 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure
< 1537666147 410088 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brachylog /is/ revolutionary, or at least, it changed the way I think about programming
< 1537666148 270959 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you want a revolutionary one?
< 1537666157 584259 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to look at Brachylog then
< 1537666159 361147 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, i decided to use 10-bit instructions, that can potentially take a n-bit constant afterwards. 
< 1537666171 37689 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: I'm using 5/6-bit instructions
< 1537666193 911992 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's arguable which, the sixth bit is either part of the instruction or part of the context depending on how you view things
< 1537666200 539924 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Result, of course, is instructions like these: https://hastebin.com/akesubemen.nginx
< 1537666204 87096 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brachylog-alikes don't need many instructions
< 1537666227 88062 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just shows as a blank page in my browser
< 1537666232 929170 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it need JS or something? (for a /pastebin/?)
< 1537666237 261025 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wait, if this isn't something "human-readable" like Jelly or golflang, then why do you even have to use constant number of bits or whole number of bits, rather than arithmetic coding with an optimized frequency table?
< 1537666239 235790 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :RIP, leme try a diffrent paste site
< 1537666251 977864 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas: it is human-readable
< 1537666254 726923 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: don't tell me you can't write an arithmetic coder and decoder.
< 1537666256 289453 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1537666272 138982 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's human-readable with 6-bit commands? for what kind of humans?
< 1537666286 653869 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :humans which work on the base64 representation of the source
< 1537666288 410844 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, sometimes I do strange things like write hex constants
< 1537666299 803578 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1537666304 849624 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :base64
< 1537666312 935379 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here just have the entire list: https://ptpb.pw/BbXF
< 1537666313 290553 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see
< 1537666319 847327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one works
< 1537666340 360576 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :well duh, it's just a raw text file. Course it works :P
< 1537666341 181980 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why does a golflang has to be human-readable? why wouldn't you just use a tool to encode or decode it?
< 1537666350 478794 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, That's what i'm doing. 
< 1537666362 228852 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people already use complicated tool to write C++ code, because they write it so unreadable they couldn't read it otherwise
< 1537666362 624767 :pikhq!~pikhq@c-73-181-126-9.hsd1.co.comcast.net PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arguably if you allow for such a tool, you might as well just use lzma.
< 1537666393 664962 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically they put typos in function names, and then never once notice because they only ever type it once and choose it from some gui autocomplete list the rest of the time
< 1537666396 277531 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :even with obvious typos
< 1537666404 249546 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not even kidding, those are my ex-colleages
< 1537666408 487652 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol
< 1537666411 22826 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ex-coworkers
< 1537666419 302600 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't believe golfing languages have to be human-readable, but if they're close to a human-readable syntax already, may as well go all the way
< 1537666434 205958 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or at least they don't notice until it's too late to change the interface because it's already committed
< 1537666452 589126 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yea, mine encodes pretty simply, i haven't settled on short names for the various instructions yet, so this example will have to do:
< 1537666465 706946 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like I never make typos, but I type almost every new non-short identifier more than once, or type ones that are already used in the library, and if I make a typo once, then the program won't compile
< 1537666466 807301 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that it does not have to be, but just because it does not have to be does not mean it is not allowed to.
< 1537666480 462347 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ok
< 1537666484 579516 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_Unsigned8bitC 01010000 I_Repeat2DSquareC 01010000
< 1537666503 557477 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :An encoder could shorten that slightly to I_Unsigned8bitC010 10100 I_Repeat2DSquareC 01010000
< 1537666505 398244 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think non-eso languages should be human readable, and if you write code for which you need fancy gui tools and syntax highlighters to understand, then you're doing it wrong
< 1537666517 385150 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: that's 33 bits, right?
< 1537666528 820224 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can sort of understand the opposite view, which says that you can't get naming right and the gui tools help do mass-renaming of identifiers when you got the name wrong, but still
< 1537666532 238139 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup. 33 bits for a 10x10 square of asterisks
> 1537666543 710764 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57725&oldid=57722 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+22) 10Further evidence that my edits are correct are at http://www.youswear.com/index.asp?language=Chilean (warning: exactly what you think it is).
< 1537666545 998779 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm wondering how that compares to other languages
< 1537666551 390860 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i already checked
< 1537666562 69886 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does really well against others on codegolf.stackexchange.com
< 1537666565 623252 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: anyway, thanks for mentioning this
< 1537666575 244064 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :TODO to self: look at brachylog
< 1537666578 176223 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I really have to leave now
< 1537666581 880959 :wob_jonas!b03f1899@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.153 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
< 1537666612 88305 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :shortest i've seen so far that isn't mine is 6 bytes
< 1537666629 98589 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in Jelly that's going to be 6 bytes I think
< 1537666631 513706 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Which goes to a Pyth answer by orlp)
< 1537666637 199755 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, can't you do it in 5? let me try this
< 1537666649 492763 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just write C codes with vim and without using the autocomplete and syntax highlighting (actually I am using the syntax highlighting feature of vim, although I am using it not to mark what is what in a C code, but rather to mark trailing spaces, and spaces between tabs, in any file)
< 1537666649 581696 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 1/8th bytes for the win
< 1537666659 218531 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/3/4/
< 1537666683 899886 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, what would a better name for this instruction be:   I_Base10League     = 384, // Returns the "league" a number is in. I.e. if it's less than 1000 but more than 100, the return value is 100.
< 1537666689 814851 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net QUIT :Quit: Leaving...
< 1537666697 641361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, no, because Jelly's "repeat last instruction" repeats the 5, not the "times 5"
< 1537666727 87315 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: what are the boundaries? 100-999 or 101-1000?
< 1537666738 559683 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :either way, that's basically just log+floor/ceil+exponentiate
< 1537666739 835226 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :100 to 999
< 1537666789 361727 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the way I think about this sort of thing is that instead of having to come up with all these builtins manually, a language is more expressive if you can build your statements out of individual concepts
< 1537666793 800156 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"on base-10-logarithm, floor"
< 1537666820 952180 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea, i agree. But handpicking can also do quite a bit
< 1537666835 897673 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't like handpicking builtins much, at least not when there are so many
< 1537666839 799998 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's why I hate Mathematica
< 1537666852 531454 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a very inefficient pattern-matching core language + loads of builtins that do all the real work
< 1537666868 519351 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm capped at 1024 builtins. Is that too many for you? :P
< 1537666880 419829 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537666883 247657 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly less than what mathematica has haha
< 1537666948 111926 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the goat incident was a good example
< 1537666962 597850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone set a challenge "given a photograph of a goat, determine if it's the right way up or upside-down"
< 1537666967 806991 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :turns out Mathematica had a builtin for it
< 1537666976 814166 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_ListSquareNums I_FilterInstanceOf, 2 1/2 bytes, should solve https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/82565/return-the-integers-with-square-digit-sums Yea i saw that
< 1537666987 770983 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: not quite
< 1537666992 259411 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is about square /digit sums/, not square numbers
< 1537666995 893665 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :err
< 1537666996 332951 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1537667020 961471 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to put the whole "sum digits, then test for squareness" inside the filter
< 1537667024 691680 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hope you have a good lambda/block syntax
< 1537667046 383120 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_SumOfDigits I_ListSquareNums I_FilterInstanceOf 3 3/4 bytes.
< 1537667060 698077 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so what's the scope of filter-instance-of?
< 1537667092 258553 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, i do. It's pretty simple bracket tricks. Also, I_FilterInstanceOf is selfcontained. It doesn't need a scope. 
< 1537667116 166826 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :the filter function in this case is, well, I_IsInstanceOf
< 1537667116 166870 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does; suppose your first command there was something vectorisable
< 1537667128 211910 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, say sum-of-digits vectorises
< 1537667148 922737 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you could either have I_SumOfDigits (I_ListSquareNums)I_FilterInstanceOf
< 1537667158 517676 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it *is* something vectorizable. That's what sum-of-digits is doing. It's checking if the sum of the digits contains anything from I_ListSquareNums
< 1537667159 421999 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or (I_SumOfDigits I_ListSquareNums)I_FilterInstanceOf
< 1537667177 919682 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so in this case, it'd be I_SumOfDigits (I_ListSquareNums)I_FilterInstanceOf
< 1537667182 103064 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the former returns the digit sums that are square, the second the numbers that have square digit-sums
< 1537667192 804897 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the latter is what this specific challenge is asking for
< 1537667204 603702 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION confused himself
< 1537667215 266103 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example, see my Brachylog v2 solution, the { } show the range of what's being filtered
< 1537667262 547783 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just chose to copy a jelly-like tree structure, with subroutine blocks thrown in for compactness usage. Leme think, i'm confusing myself
< 1537667292 577384 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_FilterInstanceOf(I_SumOfDigits, I_ListSquareNums) is how that'd look in C style
< 1537667304 251328 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so...
< 1537667321 884075 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that that's not what the problem is asking for
< 1537667329 645938 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks
< 1537667352 363898 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't solve the problem with those specific primitives at all, in fact
< 1537667359 950327 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they're too specific
< 1537667361 441168 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :aaaa.
< 1537667380 299709 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks. Leme clear my head and go doublecheck some notes
< 1537667492 232792 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 QUIT :Quit: sorry for my connection
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< 1537667541 173203 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, I_FilterInstanceOf checks if I_SumOfDigits.result contains any values from I_ListSquareNums (A constant, lazy list). For sake of sanity, I_ListSquareNums has special handling to make sure the check doesn't go on forever. (Marked as organized by size.)\
< 1537667544 360943 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm.
< 1537667553 385690 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i must be misunderstanding the problem
< 1537667590 157771 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the problem is, for any list of integers, return each element of the list whose digit-sum is square; don't return the sum, return the original element
< 1537667611 923106 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, if you convert the list to a list of digit-sums, then filter it, you can't get back at the original list whose elements you summed to make the digit-sum
< 1537667616 439582 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah
< 1537667637 44912 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or, more precisely, you don't know which of the filtered elements correspond to which elements of the original
< 1537667707 18592 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alright. I_Filter{ I_SumOfDigits I_IsPerfectSquare 0 
< 1537667708 999385 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :}
< 1537667736 30703 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :right
< 1537667737 599916 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_Filter starts a SS, so the { has no overhead, and the program ends before a } would be needed
< 1537667744 365844 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :although what's the 0 for? a typo for }?
< 1537667769 44970 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's 31 bits. the 0 is there because I_IsPerfectSquare is a dualpurpose function. If that 0 was a 1, it'd act as a filter instead of a check.
> 1537667779 112402 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57726&oldid=57725 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+60) 10
< 1537667793 557825 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :as such, I_IsPerfectSquare is 11 bits, not 10.
> 1537667804 810384 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57727&oldid=57726 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (-1) 10
< 1537667815 953528 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 7/8 bytes large. Still a really small solution.
< 1537667818 780525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I find one of the earlier problems you come across in designing a golfing language so that you can write nontrivial programs in it, is "do filter-like commands filter over several commands, or a single command, by default?"
< 1537667841 225525 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case you have it as "several", which is fine, but means you need lots of } (or a short representation for it) in the common case where you only have a short blockk
< 1537667860 159825 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in my case, it's a mix. Some versions of instructions can function as a } as well
< 1537667862 435586 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :most languages do the opposite
< 1537667873 952762 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. I_IsGreaterThanES
< 1537667920 496787 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most common check functions have a EL/ES embedded into them :D
< 1537667934 42204 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the main advantage over most golfing languages you have for this is a) blocks that are extending by default, b) shorter names for these builtins
< 1537667951 823422 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :digit sum and is-square are both 16 bytes in most current-champion golfing languages, rather than 10
< 1537668004 843032 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, what do you mean by that. *eyes Jelly's 7 byte solution*
< 1537668007 894361 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the language I'm working on could extend a block around the whole program without using extra bits too; I'm not sure it'll have a 6-bit builtin for select, though, so we might need 12 for that
< 1537668011 602744 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: err, 16 *bits*
< 1537668016 498870 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh
< 1537668043 659667 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :digit sum would be 12, is-square would possibly be 18
< 1537668077 709158 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 12+12+18 = 42 bits, so 6 bytes  (unless the trailing two bits could be inferred somehow)
< 1537668153 979132 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/172586/nightmare-puzzlang-translator inspired me to start making this lang, btw. None of the mainline golf languages had a nice, clean way to handle both wrapping arrays and moore neighbourhood checks.
< 1537668221 990305 :nfd9001!~nfd9001@c-73-157-90-101.hsd1.wa.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537668230 11299 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this has made me realise that a "restart" command at the end of the block (to restore its output to equal its input) should treat references to "this block's output" within the block itself as the value /before/ the restart
< 1537668242 464383 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(because if it wanted the value afterwards, it could just use "this blocks' input")
< 1537668326 502738 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming the input was a boolean matrix, the solution in Lux would be: I_SetWrapping I_MooreTransformSS{ I_Collect I_NumToChar } I_Collect
< 1537668369 376975 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_Collect is dualpurpose as well, but it uses type checks instead of a bit se- fuck i just realised an inconsistency
< 1537668376 899390 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :time to make I_CollectBits
< 1537668387 799410 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_SetWrapping I_MooreTransformSS{ I_CollectBits I_NumToChar } I_Collect correction :P
< 1537668467 130577 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if you mean like a stack frame, stack framing was one of the first things i thought about, alongside a stack, for more complicated ops where stack manip is beneficial
< 1537668525 91398 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brachylog doesn't have anything resembling a stack, that definitely hurts in more complex programs
< 1537668547 787440 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe some sort of indexable memory would be beneficial too. I have the encode space for it
< 1537668578 143850 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :my recommendation is that you make it indexable via arbitrary objects
< 1537668581 537700 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort-of like a giant global hash table
< 1537668608 47477 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mm. Only thing it won't be indexable by is lists, because lists technically arn't data
< 1537668637 244588 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :why make an exception for those?
< 1537668638 886155 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're their own little thing due to the huge diffrence between lists, and the other types
< 1537668673 407606 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :But thats internal only
< 1537668681 194295 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :to the user they're like the rest of the types
< 1537668712 854360 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also indexing by a list is a little silly, and the lang's int type can fit a UUID if you need one. (128bit signed integer)
< 1537668763 800200 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i like the global hash table idea
< 1537668781 622908 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is to use the hash table for golfing purposes
< 1537668798 103617 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :things like my "sort by first occurrence" golfing challenge, the shortest solutions used one
< 1537668813 917485 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the challenge: given a list, sort the list, where the sort key is "how early the first occurrence of this element appears in the list")
< 1537668856 74574 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea, i know. I can probably make lists function as hash tables when indexed by nonnumbers, which is arguably better
< 1537668883 704835 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :they'll function as standard vectors when you don't do that, however, for speed/sanity's sake
< 1537668903 907563 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe they should be a seperate type. But that means even more special handling code for each instruction
< 1537668909 954922 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :several non-esolangs have array-like structures which you can index by basically anything, and which work like an array when you use numbers
< 1537668913 712691 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lua and PHP, for example
> 1537668926 792755 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Oerjan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57728&oldid=54913 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+698) 10
< 1537668931 574662 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :good point
< 1537668935 409569 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so i'll go with that
< 1537668962 29729 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how the Wrapping flag would work with hashmaps tho. that's going to be a difficult semantics issue
< 1537668990 33546 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(When it's set, a 1D list pretends to go on forever, repeating itself, a 2D list wraps in a torus fashion, and so on)
< 1537669029 476694 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I don't think that language is quite special/amazing enough to be [[Category:Shameful]]
< 1537669042 860044 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's mostly reserved for things that are not just bad, but spectacularly bad, to the point where it becomes something worth preserving
< 1537669099 259526 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :firefox pls y u update without asking me
< 1537669101 637034 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait
< 1537669102 70140 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh
< 1537669110 947400 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, i was running yay -Syyu in the backround
> 1537669113 952608 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57729&oldid=57694 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (-254) 10
< 1537669124 222473 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for blaming you, firefox /s
< 1537669207 59759 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_Divisors I_Square I_Sum I_IsPerfectSquare 0 solves https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/171943/sum-textsquare2 but 05AB1E beats it by a 8th of a byte ):
< 1537669236 705556 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly because 05AB1E uses the exact same command sequence :P
< 1537669295 887498 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is the tradeoff between having a few general-purpose builtins and many special-purpose builtins
< 1537669324 743609 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much
< 1537669333 736348 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :each language has it's advantage
< 1537669336 658484 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no right way
< 1537669354 47818 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean look at Brainflack of all things, it's pretty good with triangles
< 1537669356 487135 :sprocklem!~sprocklem@unaffiliated/sprocklem QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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> 1537669825 274921 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Pelirodri14]]4 N10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=57730 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+0) 10Created blank page
< 1537670057 523108 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: here's a problem you should test your language on: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/129596/am-i-divisible-by-double-the-sum-of-my-digits
< 1537670081 546264 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :as that's the most common sort of problem that requires at least minimal stack discipline
< 1537670083 964961 :zamN!~zamN@184.170.56.223 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537670100 198171 :ais523!~ais523@unaffiliated/ais523 PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jelly's advantage over other golfing languages, when it's present, mostly comes down to its defaults being highly suited for that sort of porblem
> 1537670155 198389 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Esolang:Introduce yourself14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57731&oldid=57729 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+355) 10Replace accidentally deleted content and add unsigned templates
< 1537670175 124010 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, leme see how i can do it without adding new builtins
< 1537670196 694436 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :then i'll see what i can improve
< 1537670289 521773 :zamN!~zamN@184.170.56.223 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1537670353 2796 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_Duplicate I_SumOfDigits Num_2 I_Multiply I_Swap I_Divisors I_FilterInstanceOf seems closest.
< 1537670368 581021 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :For one, doubling a number is a common op, so a I_Double instruction is a good idea. 
< 1537670440 718086 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_Duplicate I_SumOfDigits I_Double I_Swap I_Divisors I_FilterInstanceOf
< 1537670461 810864 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_IsDivisorOf would probably be a nice check/filter to have.
< 1537670504 771127 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I_Duplicate I_SumOfDigits I_Double I_IsDivisorOf 0
< 1537670518 998009 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks ais523 
< 1537670572 872720 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 1/8 bytes. pretty soundly beat by some of the major langs. RIP
< 1537670629 374167 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, hm. Would making I_SumOfDigits have a nonconsuming version be worth it, or not.
< 1537670643 634800 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two ways that can be done. Make an alt instruction, or make it take up an extra bit of space
< 1537670667 116640 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_SumOfDigits is pretty uncommon, so it's probably not worh it
> 1537670740 310473 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Pelirodri14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57732&oldid=57730 5* 03Oerjan 5* (+247) 10Fine
< 1537670773 292688 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no PRIVMSG #esoteric :...why did i use bold instead of italics...
< 1537670920 150896 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Truth machine: I_LoopUntilFalseSS{ I_TeePrint 2 1/2 bytes
< 1537671035 823236 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I made STDin readable as a stream without thinking about a cat program over 100 instructions ago. Cat program: I_STDin 
< 1537671038 589583 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Implict print >:D
< 1537671198 658538 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION renames to I_STDIO to make it more useful
< 1537671397 387003 :broquea12!~broquea@41.238.242.246 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537671453 428406 :broquea12!~broquea@41.238.242.246 QUIT :Killed (Unit193 (Spam is not permitted on freenode.))
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< 1537672247 988775 :TimothyGu3!~TimothyGu@184.170.56.223 QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
< 1537675141 458298 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/70837/say-what-you-see Code: I_Unsigned8bitC100 01100 I_Repeat1In{ I_RunlengthEncode }
< 1537675203 662032 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, partial
< 1537675299 462324 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Code: I_CmdArgs I_CountdownLp2InSS{ I_RunlengthEncode I_TeePrint } should be correct.
< 1537675314 628473 :xkapastel!uid17782@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tovsoznlgmkraryc QUIT :Quit: Connection closed for inactivity
< 1537675433 175856 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably start actually implementing this :P
< 1537677412 895707 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1537685055 953696 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I_MathOp2Chain,  I_MathOp3Chain, and  I_MathOp4Chain should be pretty useful. Allows joining up 4 4 function math operations (+ - * /) into one instruction, only using up 6 extra bits (Or 2 extra, in the case of I_MathOp2Chain)
< 1537685075 952538 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/4/2, 3, or 4/
< 1537685688 958676 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537685901 379990 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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< 1537686021 401759 :MiX-MaN18!~MiX-MaN@185.204.165.20 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537686125 515286 :MiX-MaN18!~MiX-MaN@185.204.165.20 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1537686554 988932 :oerjan!oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no QUIT :Quit: Nite
< 1537686617 944325 :sebbu!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1537687371 354761 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
> 1537688018 443210 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57733&oldid=57727 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (+1) 10
< 1537688080 488179 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
> 1537688092 728209 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Oerjan14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57734&oldid=57728 5* 03Pelirodri 5* (-140) 10
< 1537688166 492644 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable QUIT :Ping timeout: 252 seconds
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> 1537710773 500660 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07Talk:SynDev14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57735&oldid=57703 5* 03Plokmijnuhby 5* (+236) 10
< 1537710814 478240 :BallChang-CN!~BallChang@184.170.37.88 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1537712184 473383 :sebbu2!~sebbu@unaffiliated/sebbu NICK :sebbu
< 1537712801 195793 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did a bit of reworking older parts. I_FrmSquareMtrx2C 0101010001010000 is the new solution for the 10x10 asterisk grid
< 1537712821 363029 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe a I_NumToChar might be necessary as well
< 1537714204 263244 :veeti29!~veeti@125.44.187.206 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537714260 660451 :veeti29!~veeti@125.44.187.206 QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
< 1537714367 378300 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537717277 29276 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537717310 66306 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :“<ais523> someone set a challenge "given a photograph of a goat, determine if it's the right way up or upside-down"” hmm, that sounds quotable
< 1537717499 173866 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :<ais523> the problem is, for any list of integers, return each element of the list whose digit-sum is square; don't return the sum, return the original element =>
< 1537717500 256 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :an yes. that's why J has the APL repeat primitive (#) which in all these common cases we use as a fork (#~ c) where c is the verb that transforms the number to a bool condition
< 1537717598 158489 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only APL calls that operation "compress" becuse it only takes boolean repeat counts, not integers
< 1537717613 536923 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :matlab has that too, but with a very bad syntax
< 1537717626 206381 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :overloaded with indexing depending on whether the type is an integer or bool
< 1537720337 429053 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"<moony> Mm. Only thing it won't be indexable by is lists, because lists technically arn't data" => are you making another Q, in which you can index by list but only with special inconvenient syntax, or a Mathematica, where lists flatten into an argument list so they would appear as multiple levels of indexes?
< 1537720366 963919 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :No.
< 1537720373 402950 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :those both sound awful lol
< 1537720399 81438 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the lists arn't data thing was going to be internal only, until i recently figured out a good way to make it function as data
< 1537720421 506036 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :“<ais523> (the challenge: given a list, sort the list, where the sort key is "how early the first occurrence of this element appears in the list")” => did J win with ([:;</.) ?
< 1537720429 192471 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :J practically has a builtin for that
< 1537720432 660717 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :the /. builtin
< 1537720455 496004 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, J doesn't have a builtin upgoat recognizer
< 1537720463 952749 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have 500~ commands in my list now. Should i fill all 1024 slots, or should i begin building the interpreter...
< 1537720470 133735 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/500/600/
< 1537720507 71417 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: the latter.
< 1537720517 746204 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can still add commands later, like in blsq
< 1537720520 558458 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also because i can: I_EngWordLookup is a thing
< 1537720538 521204 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :20 bits for the word, 4 bits for determining punctuation and if it should be uppercase'd
< 1537720565 875861 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello, World! is 8 1/2 bytes large.
< 1537720582 702339 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: that sounds like Jelly
< 1537720595 781995 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, it's similar in both syntax and design. 
< 1537720606 373115 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, so you actually have a syntax now?
< 1537720609 308091 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :good
< 1537720610 663563 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :but some extra goodies
< 1537720616 989260 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :then definitely build an interpreter
< 1537720620 324356 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it similar to blsq?
< 1537720625 214263 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, it's postfix, with the occassional prefix
< 1537720633 458744 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up blsq
< 1537720638 641664 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :burlesque
< 1537720643 810577 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :a golfing language
< 1537720659 694648 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :but golfers abbreviate its name to blsq
< 1537720670 537336 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :only I think there's only one golfer who uses it
< 1537720686 927655 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe two
< 1537720701 907331 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :mm. Also, i'm 100% going to have to write an encoder that converts the human readable format to the encoded format
< 1537720708 585620 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blsq is a stack-based language
< 1537720709 250266 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not manually manipulating bits, thank you very much
< 1537720713 734668 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a large list of primitives
< 1537720730 616094 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: write a decoder too
< 1537720734 355896 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :wob_jonas, this lang has 2 stacks. And maybe a global hash table, depending on if i decide to heed it
< 1537720771 289086 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :also aliases for 8 subroutines, and support for 65k of them max.
< 1537720786 841051 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: two with or without counting the return stack (the stack of commands to be executed)
< 1537720794 865891 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :without
< 1537720841 850796 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :first things first: Remember how the hell to use C++'s type system, i've gotten rusty ):
< 1537721107 509859 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-bcee80-209.dhcp.inet.fi QUIT :Ping timeout: 240 seconds
< 1537721144 873727 :aloril!~aloril@mobile-access-bcee80-209.dhcp.inet.fi JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537721179 261280 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537721410 936652 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"<moony> yea, i know. I can probably make lists function as hash tables when indexed by nonnumbers, which is arguably better" => what? like awk or lua? no, don't do that!
< 1537721427 238955 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok
< 1537721435 695998 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"<ais523> Lua and PHP, for example" => ah
< 1537721465 619071 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i still have to write my own list implementation anyways, because negative indexes, wrapping, and matrix handling
< 1537721644 979100 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Num_2 I_Multiply" => you have 500 primitives and no multiply by 2?
< 1537721657 546902 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that's what you say in the next line, ok
< 1537721690 596440 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony: are some of the 500 primitives assigned to the same code and will overload by the type of the top of stack?
< 1537721705 762382 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :some use the same code, and yes they overload based on type
< 1537721732 141671 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. a List[Char] and a List[Number] can be treated differently.
< 1537721748 572317 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Note that Char and Number are the same type, the only diffrence is literally just a flag)
< 1537721845 690641 :wob_jonas!b03f1880@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.176.63.24.128 QUIT :Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client
< 1537722219 277868 :SopaXorzTaker!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker NICK :Xukkot
> 1537722246 567627 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07La We14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57736&oldid=57733 5* 03B jonas 5* (-1) 10ok, do edit war with oerjan, an admin, if that's what you want
< 1537722451 236219 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been 5 years since the esolang wiki last had a new "featured language"
< 1537722465 104881 :moony!moony@unaffiliated/moonythedwarf PRIVMSG #esoteric :shouldn't we pick something new? :P
< 1537722478 359868 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net QUIT :Ping timeout: 245 seconds
< 1537722589 92344 :rain1!~rain1@unaffiliated/rain1 PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes
< 1537724664 312023 :Xukkot!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :moony, I nominate you
< 1537724668 604471 :Xukkot!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Funciton
< 1537725301 588682 :Xukkot!~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker QUIT :Quit: Leaving
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< 1537728397 190948 :Kaynato!~Aedile@23.28.151.51 QUIT :Client Quit
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< 1537729290 174354 :hexa-0!~hexa-@134.236.102.31 QUIT :K-Lined
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< 1537734085 391979 :XorSwap!~XorSwap@wnpgmb016qw-ppp-103-253.dynamic.bellmts.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1537735566 315564 :skibo4!~skibo@197.42.224.92 QUIT :Ping timeout: 260 seconds
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< 1537737499 934589 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537737961 498868 :moei!~moei@softbank221078042071.bbtec.net JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537738202 355493 :ep100!~max@105.229.116.167 JOIN :#esoteric
< 1537738744 128688 :ep100!~max@105.229.116.167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :do any of you know of any esolangs with probabilistic parsing? I'm thinking that would be an interesting idea
< 1537738817 168234 :ep100!~max@105.229.116.167 PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a great probabilistic parsing framework called Parserator which I'm wanting to use more >:)
< 1537739193 668442 :welterde16!~welterde@116.126.166.202 JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1537739609 369372 :variable!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
> 1537739657 475107 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07BF-RLE14]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57737&oldid=25359 5* 03Rdebath 5* (+2744) 10Replace this with a more inclusive description of RLE encodings.
> 1537739772 42574 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Qwertyu6314]]4 10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57738&oldid=57717 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+351) 10/* Unused image */
< 1537739788 416797 :bradcomp!~bradcomp@c-67-161-161-17.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric
> 1537739954 447632 PRIVMSG #esoteric :14[[07User talk:Qwertyu6314]]4 M10 02https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=57739&oldid=57738 5* 03Qwertyu63 5* (+2) 10
< 1537740282 783346 :AnotherTest!~turingcom@ptr-82l26zdn9kx2rnn81vw.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be QUIT :Ping timeout: 264 seconds
< 1537740432 707382 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wrote a C header file (including documentation) for C Audio Simple Plugin. Let's see if it is good and what stuff should be changed, in order whoever has improvement to do, while it is still the draft version. It is:  http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/casp.h
< 1537740693 613588 :zzo38!~zzo38@24-207-47-161.eastlink.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am not sure what mechanism should be used for timing information, how to do wrappers, even if other stuff is necessary or not
< 1537741630 336537 :trout!~variable@freebsd/developer/variable JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1537743622 408921 :danieljabailey!~danieljab@cpc75709-york6-2-0-cust725.7-1.cable.virginm.net JOIN :#esoteric
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< 1537744214 75845 :erkin!~erkin@unaffiliated/erkin QUIT :Remote host closed the connection
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< 1537744661 9321 :Phantom_Hoover!~phantomho@unaffiliated/phantom-hoover QUIT :Read error: Connection reset by peer
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