00:28:47 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Do you have a good language for me that doesn't have C-style lvalues but something more explicit?
00:28:56 <shachaf> I've finally understood what lvalues and rvalues are, I think.
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00:50:03 <Sgeo_> I'm not totally sure I understand the question, to be honest. Do you mean any statements of the form x = y where x isn't a value of an explicit type designed for that statement would be not allowed?
00:51:08 <shachaf> In ALGOL 68, for example, the thing on the left side of = is a pointer.
00:53:42 <Sgeo_> Picolisp? Assignment forms are set and setq, set takes a symbol like 'foo, setq is a bit more magic and quotes the symbol for you
00:54:16 <shachaf> I'd like something that distinguishes between memory locations and values.
00:54:27 <shachaf> Or, y'know, mutable cells that hold values and values.
00:54:54 <Sgeo_> Haskell? Erlang/Elixir?
00:55:04 <shachaf> OK, but something on the level of C.
00:56:32 <shachaf> When you write "int x; ...; x = x + 1;", the x on the left of the = refers to a memory location, but the x on the right refers to the value in that memory location.
00:58:08 <Sgeo_> The string "x" or x or {x} is a mutable location, $x is a value in that location
00:58:42 <shachaf> "x" isn't exactly a memory location (because of scoping?), but I suppose that's closer.
00:59:01 <Sgeo_> http://tpcg.io/EXzEuZ
00:59:57 <shachaf> I guess this is true in sh, actually.
01:00:04 <Sgeo_> Hmm, I don't remember enough Rebol off the top of my head
01:00:21 <Sgeo_> I've considered Rebol to be a better Tcl with a better ability to fake lexical scope, but I don't remember much else
01:00:23 <shachaf> You write x=5 to set and $x to get.
01:01:29 <Sgeo_> x: is a word similar to but not the same as x
01:01:47 <shachaf> ALGOL 68 has automatic coercion from "ref t" to "t"
01:18:45 <fizzie> You could kind of say Forth's @ and ! words are explicit like that. Or VALUE/TO. (For a word FOO defined with VALUE, "FOO" fetches from value to stack, and "TO VALUE" stores from stack to value.)
01:21:00 <shachaf> Isn't it odd that "a.x" has two different meanings, depending on whether "a" is an lvalue or an rvalue?
01:25:12 <shachaf> I agree, Forth is like that. But Forth doesn't use variables the way most languages do.
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18:57:31 <fizzie> I told it to restart, and here it is again.
18:57:50 <fizzie> And the logs seem to be back up. I'll close this as fixed.
18:58:01 <fizzie> (...I mean, I would, if we had a tracker...)
18:58:38 <shachaf> we track bugs in the logs hth
19:07:39 <int-e> `learn Esowiki is our resident issue tracker.
19:07:41 <HackEso> Learned 'esowiki': Esowiki is our resident issue tracker.
19:08:05 <shachaf> i,i our residents have a lot of issues
19:08:14 <int-e> (This is a mere summary of discussion above, not necessarily funny.)
19:09:56 <HackEso> Your omnidryad saddle principal ideal golfing toe-obsessed "Darth Ook" oerjan the shifty evil grinch is a hazy expert in minor compaction. Also a Groadep who minces Roald Dahl. He could never render the word "amortized" so he put it here for connivance. His ark-nemesis is Noah. He twice punned without noticing it.
19:10:19 <HackEso> 11622:2018-10-02 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is wearing shorts despite the weather \ 11619:2018-09-05 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is ripe for picking \ 11587:2018-08-03 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is alphanumer1c. \ 11584:2018-07-20 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month will be short-lived. \ 11570:2018-06-03 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is illegal in six US states and Saudi Arabia \ 11544:2018-
19:10:49 <shachaf> oerjan: It was 29°C here the other day.
19:11:10 <int-e> oerjan is not here... was that for the logs?
19:12:20 <shachaf> I assume that if I say "oerjan" things will make their way to him one way or another eventually.
19:12:25 <shachaf> I don't worry about the exact mechanism.
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20:07:58 <wob_jonas> I was here for the M:tG conversation, but I don't know if you replied after that part, because the logs were down
20:09:43 <ais523> you left shortly before I did
20:09:44 <wob_jonas> I was talking about some stupid basic arithmetic and calculus stuff afterwards
20:10:11 <ais523> but I pretty much just ignored the conversation because it was offtopic; I tolerate offtopic conversation here but normally don't pay much attention to it unless it's on a topic I'm interested in
20:10:21 <wob_jonas> and how the old NIST maths handbook is in some respects betteer than the new one
20:10:34 <wob_jonas> oh, elementary maths is off-topic, but category theory is on topic?
20:10:48 <wob_jonas> or all of them are on topic, we just allow a lot of off-topic stuff for community
20:12:14 <ais523> category theory is typically only on topic in as much as it related to Haskell (which would be an esolang if people weren't trying to use it seriously)
20:12:37 <ais523> if you need to know category theory to understand the language you're writing in, that sounds like an esolang to me :-D
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20:18:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah. I could write some basic haskell programs without using category theory, but since I'm a mathematician, I can understand others wanting to understand category theory for these sorts of things, whether eso or non-eso
20:18:54 <wob_jonas> I sometimes think of other crazy mathematics for programming simple stuff too, it's only natural.
20:19:04 <ais523> well, computer scientists use category theory to understand programming languages
20:19:21 <ais523> there's some category theory in my thesis, for example
20:19:33 <ais523> (that said, it's a bit out of place because my thesis ended up mostly being a study of syntax rather than semantics)
20:19:39 <wob_jonas> And I don't mean the simple stuff like using an elementary integral to compute the area of a circular sector, but really overpowered stuff I don't need for the problem, only for me it's usually not category theory.
20:20:22 <wob_jonas> Not that I haven't used category theory, I admit I have used it at least once, but only the very basics, like composing some morphisms and inverting them and some direct product, you can trivially rephrase the same proof without category theory.
20:21:08 <ais523> combinatorics seems to be the other field of maths that comes up in programming a lot
20:21:10 <wob_jonas> It ended up in an article I co-authored.
20:21:26 <ais523> at least, if you're programming for the sake of programming rather than to actually accomplish some result
20:21:37 <ais523> also, people normally prefer the category-theory proofs because they generalise to other fields
20:21:56 <ais523> the whole initial point of category theory was to allow theorems to apply to multiple fields of maths at the same time
20:22:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: yeah, but so does some of this numeric stuff, including multi-dimensonal vector arithmetic, whether exact or asymptotics, simple statistics, and numeric analysis to understand which floating-point calculations are numerically stable and what approximations are good.
20:23:44 <wob_jonas> I actually started to think of this area of circular sector and volume of spherical cap thing because it was needed for an approximation in a program by a co-worker, not that I need to understand the integration myself for that, you can just re-use formulas other people have computed, but still.
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23:44:48 <wob_jonas> Mind you, using the letter "d" in two conflicting ways in that formula is really unfortunate
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